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Winter Soldiers' Stories

By Nina Berman, AlterNet. Posted August 25, 2005.


A rereleased 1971 documentary offers firsthand accounts of Vietnam soldiers who witnessed -- and committed -- barbaric acts of brutality as part of their 'tour of duty.'

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When American soldiers commit atrocities, whatever the locale, the crimes are usually explained away as misguided adventures by a few bad seeds who were poorly trained or twisted from the start, and then lost their bearings in the fog of war.

But just one viewing of the documentary Winter Soldier, a chronicle of testimonies given by the organization Vietnam Veterans Against the War, turns the bad seed defense inside out.

The film, shot in Detroit in winter 1971 but not widely released until now, provides first-hand accounts by apparently sane, sensitive soldiers, who witnessed (or committed) the most barbaric acts of brutality as part of their normal, day-to-day tours of duty.

"What should be brought out is the horror of the everyday that went on over there, " said one veteran in the film.

We learn from Cpt. Rusty Hughes about a crew from Philadelphia who got their kicks chucking live prisoners out of helicopters. He tells us that the practice was supported by military orders, which dictated that prisoners be counted once they were unloaded from aircraft not when they were first picked up, as the numbers might not jibe. Winks all around.

We hear from Sgt. Joseph Bangert about a USAID officer who visited a Vietnamese village. Upon arrival, the officer walked over to a dead woman who had been killed by South Vietnamese forces. In full public view, he "ripped her clothes off and took a knife and cut, from her vagina almost all the way up, just about up to her breasts and pulled her organs out, completely out of her cavity, and threw them out. Then, he stopped and knelt over and commenced to peel every bit of skin off her body and left her there as a sign for something or other."

We hear about marines who riddled children with bullets, then laughed out loud; another group stoned a child to death. Body parts, especially ears, were prized -- they could be traded for beers. Friendly villages were used as playgrounds for bored mortar and artillery units, with the losing unit buying drinks for the winners. The winners destroyed the village.

"They would keep a chart on how many kills you had. It was like a hunting trip. The more people you killed, the happier our officers were," said Sgt. Scott Camil, who received 13 medals over the course of two tours with the Marines in Vietnam. The medals were not for bravery, he says in the film, but for acts of indiscriminate killing.

More than 100 veterans testified in the Winter Soldier Investigations, held at a cramped Howard Johnson's Motor Lodge in Detroit from January 31 to February 2, 1971. TV cameras covered the event, but never aired the stories. A group of filmmakers -- many of whom went on to have formidable careers -- recorded the events and edited the material into a 95-minute film.

The veterans in attendance ranked from captains to privates and represented all branches of the military services. They were marines, infantrymen, pilots and Green berets. Their units were spread throughout Vietnam from the years 1963-1970.

John Kerry makes a brief appearance early in the film, in what now seems like a cameo role. He asks an innocuous question and gives no testimony. He is onscreen for less than a minute, but it's this appearance -- and the subsequent medal-throwing rally in Washington D.C. attended by many Winter Soldier vets -- that would be used against Kerry by Swift Boat Veterans for Truth during the 2004 presidential campaign.

That same group has challenged the veracity of the veterans' testimonies at Winter Soldier, but with little proof. All those testifying were vetted, with their discharge papers checked and their testimony mapped out against the locations and dates of troop movements.

The film is shot in grainy black and white, with no narration. Scenes of veterans seated at a table testifying are interspersed with color shots taken by the veterans while in Vietnam.


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War What Is It Good For!
Posted by: michele0726 on Aug 25, 2005 6:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Once again it seems that war truly just destroys everything in its path. This includes those killed and those doing the killing. I cannot imagine what it is like to kill another person and then try to live with that. It is also apparent that the war in which we are involved currently is so very wrong. In my opinion there has never been a good reason to go to war. It is always about power and control. The one we are committing now is an example of how wrong it is. I know that when I read something like this I become very frustrated with a sense of helplessness. I do admit being encouraged by the falling approval rates of Baby Bush. I am also encouraged by the courage of Cindy Sheehan and those going to Crawford to support her. Perhaps we are turning another corner. I certainly hope so. One of the lessons I think we learned is that I hear of few people not supporting the troops that went. This is a big improvement over Viet Nam. At any rate I hope this devasting and illegal war ends very soon and that our brave sons and daughters come home soon.

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I will be waiting for an excuse from the Swift Boat Guys
Posted by: bookwoman on Aug 25, 2005 6:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now that this film will be available for viewing to a much larger number of Americans, it will be possible to contradict those members of "Swift Boat Veterans" including those who probably never got any closer to the Vietnam War than their television screens. I will be waiting to hear what excuses and alibis they will make up to clean up the lies that were told before the 2004 election.

One story we will not hear in this film is that of the troop commander who had his men make "water" balloons out of gasoline to be dropped on villagers as their helicopters passed over. That commander was, I believe, one of the Swift Boat Veterans. His crime(s) and his name will be forgotten by history. However, I trust that he will still have to answer for actions such as this when he meets his maker. Thank God for small mercies.

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The point of this?
Posted by: tobykreidler on Aug 25, 2005 6:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is hard for me to understand exactly what the point of this documentary is. That war is terrible? That when you send men to kill people they end up doing terrible things? Is anyone surprised by this? Here's a surprise for you, Viet Nam & Iraq are not the first wars in which innocents have been killed and terrible acts have been committed. It is hard for me to understand how anyone can expect that anything but this might happen. Tell a young man that this other group of people is so terrible that they must be killed (because if they are not so terrible, then how can one justify killing them) but then expect the soldiers to have compassion & be able to discrimate between the good bad guys and the bad ones. This is niave. War is killing and destruction, plain and simple. The goal is to kill enough of the other people & destroy enough of their stuff that they do whatever it is you want them to do. Thind firebombing Dresden, think giving small pox infected blankets to the Native Americans. I am tired of hearing about how terrible our soldiers were in Viet Nam and how terrible they are in Iraq because these are wars that perhaps we should have never gotten involved in. Do not forget that there were thousands who protested American involvement in WWII, they were put in jail. Those who write history decide if a war was "just" or not, but you can be fairly sure that a roman legionairre, a soldier in WWII or a guy in Faluhja all experienced the same hell. If these guys felt like they needed to come clean about the guilt they feel for the things they participated in, it is their right and we should be their for them because it was us who sent them, but for anyone who has never been in their position to even imply judgement is troublesome to me.

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» RE: The point of this? Posted by: Swatopluk
» RE: The point of this? Posted by: skyeblue
» RE: The point of this? Posted by: ckueny
» RE: The point of this? Posted by: Jayzer
» RE: The point of this? Posted by: tobykreidler
» RE: The point of this? Posted by: Samantha Vimes
» RE: The point of this? Posted by: tobykreidler
condemned to repeat it
Posted by: karyse on Aug 25, 2005 7:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, those who do not remember history ... and why don't we remember? High school history books have all but eliminated any real history and Viet Nam barely gets a mention.

One of the things that is notably missing, even from the progressive view of Nam is "fragging" -- the lower ranking soldier who (perhaps) didn't like the actions or tactics of a lieutenant or an NCO in charge would simply make him a victim of "friendly fire." One wonders -- did they frag someone who committed atrocities or somone who wouldn't commit atrocities.

Anyone know?

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» RE: condemned to repeat it Posted by: Jayzer
» RE: condemned to repeat it Posted by: karyse
» RE: condemned to repeat it Posted by: jammaster328
Why Wasn't This Shown a Year Ago?
Posted by: harpy on Aug 25, 2005 9:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why wasn't this shown a year ago when the neo cons were making John Kerry out to be such a liar because he had testified about these things?

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Preaching to the choir
Posted by: zooeyhall on Aug 25, 2005 12:49 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have not seen "Winter Soldier", but I am sure it exactly depicts the terrible truth of war, and what it takes to fight one. Also, it is almost certain that the stories and incidents that are described could find exact counterparts today in Iraq.

But the next question is: OK, we know that War is Hell, but what are we going to do about it now with Iraq? Sometimes, I find myself somewhat annoyed at the naivevity of the anti-war movement. They seem to think that because they are personally outraged, that in itself is enough to change people's views. How do we convince youths who are pondering a military career to see this film? How can we make it available to schools? If the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth challenged the move, why aren't they challenged more in the film, perhaps in an epilogue?

Winter Soldier is a documentary that should be seen by all those who think war is an arm chair adventure or video game. However, it does no good to "preach to the choir". How do we get this message out to the red states and the "Support our Troops" bumper sticker crowd?

Like Thoreau said: It does no good to strike at the branches of evil, you have to strike the ROOT!

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Eat the Body
Posted by: pjrsullivan on Aug 25, 2005 12:51 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Every day before school began we went to church and the priest changed the wafer and wine into the body and blood, which we then ate and drank.

The blood cannibal cult that is Chrisitianity is a big factor in Americas terrorist genocidal atrocity machine that is let loose in this world.

This cult and the other 2 desert dwelling cannibal cults are being used to continue the predator activity of America, the great cannibal.

It is as if we are all in a trance and like lemmings are marching to our extermination with the banner of some long ago dead member of a cannibal cult leading us on.

What is really troubling is that our criminal cannibal leaders take our tax dollars and give some of our money to these cannibal cults to raise children up so that they will then change from ordinary cannibal cult kids and be used as cannon fodder kids.

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» RE: at the Body Posted by: Halaby
» RE: Eat the Body? Posted by: Jayzer
» RE: at the Body Posted by: nakis
» if I had a nickel Posted by: nakis
Guess where they got that idea?
Posted by: iremember on Aug 26, 2005 1:12 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When Himmler's SS men went through their training--early in the war while they were still hitting their recruitment goals--they trained for six months and every man had a canine with whom he trained. The dog became inured to the sounds of battle--they often trained with live ammo--and was trained to perform a variety of tasks that were considered useful. When the SS man graduated, he was taken to his commander's office with his dog and his commander said, "The fatherland has one more task to ask of you before you graduate as a full-fledged member of the SS. Please strangle your dog" And they did.

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Barnacle Bill
Posted by: Barnacle Bill on Aug 27, 2005 2:15 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This thing about Christians eating the body and blood of Jesus - it originated in one or more pagan religions whose earliest traditions included actually killing and eating the priest-king. In time and with the advance of civilisation the ritual became merely symbolic. The early Christian church adopted the symbolism. Don't worry about it! (The Roman Catholic Church formally still believes in the actuality, but - and I say this with no disrespect - the R C church is one of the most primitive sects of Christianity.)

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» RE: Barnacle Bill Posted by: kdub
What is the Point? Not the Atrocities or even that they happened but WHY?
Posted by: indythinker on Dec 4, 2005 12:02 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I stumbled upon this thread as I was surfing the NET looking for addional information and insight for a presentation to two college classes I volunteered to speak at next week in Ohio.

First off I'm a combat Veteran of both Vietnam and Gulf War One. I served in the Army in Vietnam and Air Force during the Gulf War. I was an NCO in NAM and a Military Intelligence Officer in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait during the First Gulf War.

I'm retired now, and we have a Soldier deployled on his second combat tour in Iraq as a tank gunner.

As a young man, I did not protest against the Vietnam War nor was I a member of VVAW, because "I was volunteered" to go into the Army at the age of 17 by a judge. While the Winter Soldier Investigantions where going on I was on active duty with a peace sign on my helmet and an attitude that if it didn't wear an American Uniform it was INFERIOR to me.

Let's put one thing to rest right now. Atrocities did happen in Vietnam because as this gent said shit happens in war BUT Vietnam and any war America has been involved in, including the one in the Middle East has one thing in common - RACE, which I will touch on later.

I recently went to see the Winter Soldier Documentary at the Wexner Center for the Performing Arts at Ohio State University. Folks OSU is a state university in a Repubican dominated state. Someone pulled this off right under the NEO-CONs noses.

Not only that but it was treated and packaged with DIGNITY as a work of art. "Filmically, the work is a symptomatic example of content triumphing over form. The sheer power of the subject matter, the profound weight of revelation is such that is sweeps aside all limitations and transforms the work into a deeply moving, absolutely necessary experience. That was the academic crititique given by OSU, but I'm a SHOW ME kind a guy, a former long-term Republican. and Retired Military Intelligence Officer with a child committed to combat now being asked to shred the Geneva Convention. I wanted to look into those young faces to see for myself if they were telling the truth, had been there, like me, or were putting me on.

Continued in the next post,

Bobby Hanafin
Sgt, U.S. Army (69-76)
Major, U.S. Air Force-Retired (77-94)

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What is the Point? Not the Atrocities or even that they happened but WHY?
Posted by: indythinker on Dec 4, 2005 12:04 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Most of what I came away with told me these men were sincere. They had been there and done that. The most striking part of the documentary I could relate to was this theme. It was brought up over and over by several Veterans in attendence that it wasn't the atrocities that they should be focusing on as much as the reasons WHY?

Though there can be controversy over the degree of atrocities that occurred in Vietnam, how widespread they were, what is the definition of an atrocity, was the Geneva Convention violated, and other rhetorial questions, of several things there is no argument but a conscencous among these Veterans, which I must agree with.

1. Government policy at the hightest levels from the White House during the Johnson, Nixon, and now Bush Administrations to their Pentagons right down the military chain of command created the environment making atrocities possible, bending the rules on the Geneva Convention or just outright disregarding the Geneva Convention period by declaring certain persons as not POWs.

2. Lower ranking U.S. enlisted and officers as in the case of Mai Lai, Abu Garab, and elsewhere were the scapegoats of government policy when there was bad media coverage, especially international, or public outcry at home or internationally. No public outcry or media coverage and an atrocity such as Mai Lai or anywhere in Iraq or Afghanistan went or would go unnoticed continuing to foster an illusion among the troops that anything goes until you got caught. Much like politicians in Congress of either party who want to stay the coursein the Vietnam or Iraq War for profits from Defense Contractors while waving the flag UNTIL THEY GET CAUGHT and have to resign in SHAME.

3. What was the main root that allowed our young men (and later women in Iraq and Cuba) to do these things? A combination of combat, anger, and RACISM. The theme of RACISM is repeated over and over during the Winter Soldier Investigations.

There is a direct relationship between RACISM and those who refuse to admit we lost the Vietnam War. There is also a direct link between RACISM, and those who desire to find scapegoats in the Vietnam anti-war movement and so-called liberal media who lost the war then as they believe would lose the Iraq War now.

Continued in next post,

Bobby Hanafin
Sgt, U.S. Army (69-76)
Major, U.S. Air Force-Retired (77-94)

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What is the Point? Not the Atrocities or even that they happened but WHY?
Posted by: indythinker on Dec 4, 2005 12:06 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
An incompetent and currupt American government (both Democrats and Republicans) lost the Vietnam War, and the same kind of government will lose the Iraq War. Governments starts wars, and they lose wars. Only the people who fight them are doomed to debate the rest of their lives if the war they fought in was worth the cost for their young lives and their fellow troops whos names will be on the next War Memorial.

Yes war is terrible. When you send men, and now young women, to kill people they end up doing terrible things. Viet Nam & Iraq are not the first wars in which innocents have been killed and terrible acts have been committed. Tell a young man and woman that this other group of people is so terrible that they must be killed (because if they are not so terrible, then how can one justify killing them) but then expect the soldiers to have compassion & be able to discrimate between the good bad guys and the bad ones. This is niave. War is killing and destruction, plain and simple. The goal is to kill enough of the other people & destroy enough of their stuff that they do whatever it is you want them to do. Think firebombing Dresden, think giving small pox infected blankets to the Native Americans. Are you tired of hearing about how terrible our soldiers were in Viet Nam and how terrible they are in Iraq because these are wars that perhaps we should have never gotten involved in. Those who write history decide if a war was "just" or not, but you can be fairly sure that a roman legionairre, a soldier in WWII or a guy in Faluhja all experienced the same hell. If these guys felt like they needed to come clean about the guilt they feel for the things they participated in, it is their right and we should be their for them because it was us who sent them.

I'm slightly confused but it sounds like whoever originally posted this is either a WWII or Korean War Vet. Regardless, if he said what I think he said, I somewhat agree.

Continued on Last Post,

Bobby Hanafin
Sgt, U.S. Army (69-76)
Major, U.S. Air Force-Retired (77-94)

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What is the Point? Not the Atrocities or even that they happened but WHY?
Posted by: indythinker on Dec 4, 2005 12:06 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In closing, it still comes back to the point most older Americans are going to miss because of how they were raised, especially prior to the Vietnam War. RACISM played a major role in how we as American troops treated the non-caucasians we came into contact with in Southeast Asia and it still does with Ragheads we come into contact with in the Middle East.

We resent having been defeated by a yellow skinned race which held out against the most technologically superior nation on earth at the time. Vietnam had no Air Force or Navy to speak of, and we bomb them even further back to the stoneage yet still they held on. In reaction some 30 years later the same ultra-right wingers (and others) who refuse to accept that defeat are determined to have VICTORY against the ARABS (also non-caucasians) no matter how many young American lives it costs or how many dollars are spent in U.S. debt.

At the end of the Winter Soldier Investigations, it was said like a prophecy. An American Indian (Vietnam Veteran) slowly, painfully established a link between our Vietnamese crimes and those perpetrated against his race and then refers to frequent phrase in the broken treaties between white and yellow men. "When we made trieties long ago, they were for as long as the grass shall grow and as long as the rivers flow..." He stops and continues haltingly,"...The way we are going now, someday, the grass ain't going to grow and the rivers ain't going to flow..." Then he breaks down, on camera, a grown man, and cries. It is an unbearable moment.

This comment is dedicated to the troops surving in Iraq and Afghanistan who lost loved ones or face hardship in the states hit hardest by Hurricane Katrina but are still serve in Iraq or Afghanistan voluntarily or otherwise. If you don't think this war is about race ask a displaced survivor of Hurricane Katrina or anyone who disagrees with the President wanting to use Regular Military Troops for Natural Disasters - a role traditonally performed by "citizen Soldiers." Does the President really mean Disaster Relief or Riot Control?

Bobby Hanafin
Sgt, U.S. Army (69-76)
Major, U.S. Air Force-Retired (77-94)

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