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Is Everything Bad Really Good For Us?

By Laura Barcella, AlterNet. Posted July 8, 2005.


We talk with media darling Steven Johnson about pop culture, 'media diet,' and -- ahem -- whether his much-hyped new book should really be taken seriously.
Everything Bad

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Steven Johnson is a lucky man.

Once a respected -- albeit somewhat obscure -- technology journalist and nonfiction author, he recently watched his career undergo a dramatic, quick-change makeover (à la insipid FOX reality show "The Swan").

With the publication of his latest book, Everything Bad is Good for You (Riverhead; May 2005), the Brooklyn-based author has been shoved into a suddenly-adoring public spotlight, receiving critical acclaim everywhere from the New York Times (where Everything Bad ... was excerpted) to Salon, to the New Yorker and the San Francisco Chronicle.

On his Web site, Johnson notes with bewildered pleasure that -- so far -- the book's media buzz has been 90 percent favorable (and 10 percent negative).

OK, but from where we're standing, it looks a lot more like 100% favorable; we've seen Johnson all over the news and the Net, and are hard-pressed to find a review that doesn't kiss his butt.

Then again, considering his book's premise, the fact that the media loves Johnson isn't so surprising. Everything Bad is Good for You is a wholehearted endorsement of pop culture -- Johnson argues that everything we've been told is mind-killing drivel (TV, video games, and the ever-addictive Internet) has actually increased our IQs and made us smarter.

He argues that mass entertainment has grown more cognitively challenging over the last 30 years, and that TV shows of today -- particularly, multi-thread dramas like "Lost" and "24" -- have helped us learn focus, patience, retention, and "the parsing of narrative threads."

Right. So let's be honest -- it sounds like a lot of publicity-fueled hooey (does mass media really need its back scratched any more? It already sucks in gazillions of advertising dollars, not to mention millions of impressionable American minds).

I spoke with Johnson by telephone from his Brooklyn home to try to determine whether this guy was for real.

Laura Barcella: Have you been surprised by all the attention you've gotten from the book?

Steven Johnson: Yes and no. What's been surprising is the sheer volume of it. I knew this book was going to get more attention than my others because it is easier to describe and it's got the patrician hook, and people care about pop culture one way or the other. But I didn't realize it was going to be quite so crazy.

It's sparked this international conversation about the state of American pop culture. I did [an interview with an] Argentinean paper and a German paper today, and there have been dozens of articles about it overseas, not including England ...

The other interesting thing about it is that the criticism has come from the Left more than from the Right. And it may just be that the Right hasn't engaged with it yet. I did a show with a conservative-values person yesterday who was arguing with me about it. ... But generally [criticism has been] from a group that I'm much closer to philosophically -- progressive folks who don't let their kids watch TV because they don't like the ads and commercialism.

What happened in your conversation with the "conservative values" person yesterday?

It was perfectly civil. We had this funny exchange where he kept trying to make me out [as] this guy saying, "Your kids should be allowed to play Grand Theft Auto all day long."

I kept saying, "Look -- I think Grand Theft Auto is inappropriate for most kids," but the truth is that most video games are not violent. I say that right upfront, in the video game section of my book.

So why do you think some people are resistant to the idea that pop culture isn't all bad?

Well, it's a couple of different things. It's the oldest complaint in the cultural book that whatever the kids are up to today is no good. [Laughter.]

We went through this with rock n' roll, and now we're going through it with video games. And there is this technological learning curve, particularly with interactive stuff and games, where not only do [older people] not get it, but they literally can't sit down and ... understand how to play. There's part of kids' culture that the older generation just literally hasn't seen.

Part of what I was trying to do in the book is to walk people through what you actually do when you play video games, so that they would understand the complexity.

Also, I think there's this nostalgia ... it's quaint to go back and look at these TV shows from the '70s. You know, they are sweet in some ways, but they just really aren't as smart.

One of the things that I like to do when I talk in person is to show a few minutes from [the first season of] "Dallas." You just can't believe how slow and plodding and predicable it was. And back then it was [considered] the hottest, raciest show on television! Everybody was like, "Ooh, scandalous -- 'Dallas.'"


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Laura Barcella is AlterNet's front page editor.

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"junk food" of pop culture
Posted by: mazur on Jul 8, 2005 1:29 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My idea is that these parts of our culture, which we previously wrote off as the "junk food" of pop culture, actually turn out to be mentally nutritious after all. The book is about the last thirty years -- a trend of increased complexity and mental/cognitive engagement in pop culture over that period.

An interesting idea to explore -- are people becoming "mentally (or culturally) obese" from the "junk food" of pop culture?

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» RE: "junk food" of pop culture Posted by: monkeywrench
"Don't Confuse Seduction With Depth"
Posted by: monkeywrench on Jul 8, 2005 6:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From Steven Johnson: "Are 'Survivor' and 'The Apprentice' better than 'Joani Loves Chachi' and 'The A-Team?' I think clearly they are."

You gotta be kidding. They're not better, they're just different. Many of us considered "The A-Team" and "Joanie Loves Chachi" crap back then, and we consider today's "reality" shows crap now. What's so interesting or "challenging" about watching ordinary people with no acting skills snipe at each other on contrived programs that are about as "real" as your average sit-com? (Ever wonder what the "Survivor" crew of 200+ ate and where they slept on that island? Please – the catering table was just behind the bushes. . .). We're not getting smarter watching "reality" TV; we're turning into a nation of voyeurs.

Also keep in mind, Steven, that while you think that you are being "challenged" by today's pop-culture offerings, as often as not you are being cynically manipulated psychologically.

The name-of-the-game in pop culture is the same as always: sell, sell, sell. Programming is there only to keep the viewer seduced long enough to get to the next commercial break, and video games are seductive solely to keep consumers buying more. What's missing in all this 24/7 entertainment is individual creativity and intitiative. THAT'S what needs to be stimulated in people, and creativity is often helped by unstructured, un-"entertained" down time. But ya' can't sell more cheap plastic shit to the gullible that way, so producers keep feeding us new varieties of pop-culture drivel.

It is a sad comment on our culture that we limit ourselves in our entertainment to TV and video games, and that what stimulates our creativity and an active curiosity about the truly awe-inspiring universe we live in (books included) is considered boring.

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» People have to start somewhere. Posted by: MrVetinari
An apologist earns his shekels
Posted by: haystack1317 on Jul 8, 2005 8:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
At the G8 meeting, many members were surprised that the U.S. is still disputing the science on global warming. Perhaps if they knew that Americans are loving this book, they wouldn't have been surprised. Denial seems to be our strength these days.

It won't be all that long before people are over this book and asking themselves how they ever could have let themselves take it seriously. It will be an example, in twenty years, of something as ridiculous and locked into it's narrow window of popularity as "Joani loves Chachi."

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Everything Has a Positive Side
Posted by: nakis on Jul 8, 2005 8:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I guess what the author is trying to capture is that nothing is black and white. Nothing is all bad for your nor all good for you.
I'd have to argue against his belief in reality TV. I thought if you watched one of those biker buildoff shows of DISCOVERY or TLC you'd learn something about building motorcycles. It turned out to be better than 90% emotional candy and very little info on building motorcycles. It literally was short attention span soaps for men.

I do have to side with him on video games. Some are very violent but most teach you persistence and problem solving skills. Maybe not the most ideal method of teaching and it does have it side affects. But it is not all bad or all good.

I really don't think reading his book will convince me that listen to Brittany Spears, Puff Daddy or watching Survivor or Fear Factor will be productive for me.

But Buffy was enjoyable to watch. Lesbian witches are cool even if they almost detroy the world. :)

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hug your TV
Posted by: rosenmontag on Jul 8, 2005 9:11 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the philosopy of the author leans in the zen direction, and is comforting in such a heated atmosphere in America, where everything must be labelled good or bad.

The outstanding characteristic of american pop culture, as in any country, is that it creates a group of people who have the same knowledge base, who can sing the same lyrics, who have the same buying patterns, same social behaviors.

Is this bad? It may be boring and a field day for gov't and businesses, but well we can get off the train whenever we want.

Beekman's World, Sesame Street, Jacque Cousteau, Marlin Perkins Wild World of Animals .... and altogether now "I'm just a bill, sitting here on ....." I love television!

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» RE: Sheep Posted by: treehuggingliberal
In the comfort zone
Posted by: shack on Jul 8, 2005 9:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sorry, but Ronald Reagan got there first ! I recall some remark by the Gipper about how great video games would be for training future warriors. And it is an excellent way to train people to kill - clean and detached and bloodless. Bad guys on the satellite scan ? Point and click and take 'em out. It is revealing that the educational example given by the author is simulating the Civil War. In other words, the Civil War is reduced to playing general. Issues like slavery or culpability or what the Civil War might have to teach future generations would, of course be too boring for video games. No doubt this book is getting a lot of positive play in the press. It's an eminently marketable addition to modern American culture. Once again, every idiotic activity that we engage in must ultimately be good for mankind and where war is all about flag waving and computers and photo-ops.

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» RE: In the comfort zone Posted by: jamiingledue
» RE: In the comfort zone Posted by: mkwagner
TV kids
Posted by: jamiingledue on Jul 8, 2005 9:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm a youth services librarian in a middle-class suburb. And let me tell you, you can spot the "tv kids" as soon as they come in. They have no attention span, they're usually wired, and they have no idea how to interact properly with other human beings, adults or kids. And these are the ones who actually make it to the library! (Granted, they usually go straight for the video/dvd section or the computer games.) I don't know if this guy discusses the impact tv has on a child's brain development, but trust me, it's not good. Experts have recommended for quite a while that kids should not even be put in front of a tv until they are two years old, for example, but "Baby Einstein" videos & dvds continue to be very popular. These are a sham: research has shown that these kinds of programs contribute nothing to a child's brain development. Guess when that development happens? When a child is looking into the eyes of real person that the child knows and loves. Human interaction is still the key to learning and brain development, and to think that there are people out there who say tv and video games are good for kids--well, it makes me shudder. I'm not saying a little tv is a terrible thing (I'm a huge Buffy fan, and I love Sesame Street), but when you interact just a little with the TV Kids, you start to fear for the future.

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Intellectual Tubbo
Posted by: regimeoftruth on Jul 8, 2005 9:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The idea is very interesting... What if all of this exposure to media is increasing our IQs, but not making us psychologically fitter... The intellectual equivalent of being fat... being able to quickly assimilate a lot of useless input garbage into a lot of useless output garbage... playing games... doing crosswords... taking IQ tests... but being as good at performing a real world task as a fat guy would be at running a marathon, despite his apparent "energy reserves." I've got competing hypotheses about the supposed Attention Deficit Disorder "epidimic"... One is that we are designed to run around the wilderness looking for food, which requires quick thinking not attention span... The other is that our children are being force fed stimuli constantly, and their ability to focus on a task that isn't challenging or fun has been compromised... If this guy is right about overstimulation increasing IQ (which he probably is) that doesn't say anything about a person's ability to perform in even the most interesting and intellectually challenging of jobs... a scientist for example might have to memorize a table of information that they don't want to, or spend hours checking samples before any real intellect would be demanded of them.

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Attention Span
Posted by: Guy on Jul 8, 2005 1:00 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One thing that is not covered here (I don't know if it is in the book) is attention span. Is it just me (46 years old) or are attention spans getting shorted? Teens and 20-somethings seem to have the attention span of a 30-second commercial; if there isn't an explosion or a belly laugh within that period, they get bored. I think the proliferation of video games and the increased number of hours watching TV (quantity here, not quality) is causing this.

I was at a Leo Kottke concert the other day and there were a lot of 20-somethings there who had, I assume, come to see the bass player, Mike Gordon, from Phish. I swear a lot of them couldn't sit still for more than a minute without getting up, getting another drink, talking to their friends, looking around, etc.

Now, don't get offended. I am not saying ALL teens and 20-somethings are like this; just that I see this trend.

What do you think?

Guy

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» RE: Attention Span Posted by: treehuggingliberal
» RE: Attention Span Posted by: MrVetinari
I liked 70s TV.
Posted by: WhatNow? on Jul 8, 2005 5:04 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My favorite shows were Kung Fu, the Waltons, and M*A*S*H*. I was just a kid. I rarely if ever watched that crap the author mentions.

I like older movies too. They tend to rely more of plot, dialogue, and my imagination than most of this new crap.

As for books, I've never seen a movie that I enjoyed more than the book from which it was based.

I do think video games do help people learn to use a computer better and help your hand to eye coordination but like everything moderation is the key.

I don't care at all for modern pop culture though. The talent is weak and the effort is not any better. Gimme a Jimmy Page or Frank Zappa anyday to these modern day, low skill, weak, and pathetic musicians and songwriters.

I know I do not have any interest in this book, however I did enjoy reading everybody's replies with which I mostly agree.

Even though I am 36 years old I'm still just a young punk that knows moderation and patience.

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Orchestras disappear, opera houses shut down...
Posted by: Sojourner on Jul 8, 2005 6:46 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...and when was the last time you saw a decent contemporary tragedy staged? Were it not for "Death of a Salesman" and a few other niche works, tragedy would be represented only in the classics.

Remember that the Greeks, when they staged a drama festival, included a comedy and a satyr play along with tragedy -- perhaps as their version of "a spoonful of sugar." I do not understand why it is the tragedies we still prize most rather than the others, but I believe that may speak to the contrast between pop and high culture.

Measuring a creative production in terms of "making you smarter" by boosting IQ is a context that catches me off balance. Pop culture is usually a horse race, and that's one way it is different from art, even while 'pop art' has achieved some distinction. So 'pop' translates into a contest. Pop culture is mass culture for mass media and mass mentality. (Yes, I have pop culture favorites, while I no longer can tolerate the intrusion of tv.) But pop culture surely can be sorted into high and low, just as with the creations of the larger cultural dimensions.

The fine arts, on the other hand, do not compete, except perhaps against the self-determined restrictions that define them. Admittedly, were it not that we still believe education advances a career and that fine art can be a good investment, I wonder how long the consensus of Western civilization about the desirability of developing taste and a capacity for appreciation would continue.

It boils down, doesn't it, to what one chooses to do with the time that is given us to live. I choose to give competition only as much of my attention as is absolutely necessary. That carries with it a heightened sense of alienation, to be sure. And I may yet rue the day I selected such a lifestyle. I may be wrong, but I doubt I am 'dumber' for it.

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Shared Stories & Whiskey Sour Fizz
Posted by: michael40 on Jul 9, 2005 7:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think treehuggingliberal (above) had it right suggesting that what "pop" culture does is provide a common currency of ideas and stories for a group of people. Before mass media (long before), we learned these stories from people who lived closer to home - parents and elders, probably, or story-tellers. Pop culture has replaced our own stories with stories primarily from large, self-serving and politically motivated institutions.

Narrative differences have impact. Pop culture might depict aboriginal people (for instance) as failed and addicted, but aboriginal people depict themselves as full human beings. The disservice we receive from pop culture, it seems to me, is not so much in how it diminishes intelligence, but rather in how it replaces our understanding of who we are with stories and images and narratives from some place else. I am either the author of my own life, or a character in someone else's story - I forget who said that.

Steve Johnson's analysis avoids all this. He seems to be analyzing the fizz of a whiskey sour - and finding that it doesn't make anyone drunk.

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» So 'bad' tv is 'bad' for us? Posted by: Sojourner
Today's TV Is "Smarter," but . . .
Posted by: DDT on Jul 10, 2005 3:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I haven't read Steven Johnson's book yet, but I tend to agree with him on this: Many TV shows today (scripted, not "reality") have a greater "internal sophistication" to them--that is, more complex plotting and deeper character development--than comparable shows from earlier TV generations. On the other hand, isn't that to be expected?

Consider this analogy: Read today, many 19th-century novels come across as exceedingly plodding because they stop to explain every nuance, every rationale, every thought and emotion. Why? Because those areas were new to both writer and reader. This was uncharted territory that needed to be mapped and understood. Once, by dint of exposure and repetition, those areas entered the collective consciousness, they could be marked in shorthand in subsequent endeavors and new territory could then be explored.

The same thing with TV. The plodding and predictable introduction to Dallas, as Johnson describes it, needed to be taught to that generation first. Once taught, viewers of later generations of TV shows could move on to something more sophisticated. But a generation needed to be taught the basics before that could happen.

And although the internal sophistication might be greater, it appears to be a superficial sophistication relative to the show itself, not necessarily reflective of the audience's level of knowledge and education. To illustrate, I've watched seemingly banal sitcoms of yesteryear, like Bewitched, where a character made an offhand, almost throwaway, reference understood to be in the general knowledge of the audience of that time--say a historical or literary reference--that, ironically, would have to be explained in detail in today's "sophisticated" TV show.

This in turn illustrates another problem: What does Johnson mean by the "raising of IQ" by today's TV? There have been challenges to the validity of IQ scores. Some claim that IQ tests are biased toward the white, middle-class experience; thus, those not of that experience might be measured inadequately, which I believe was the challenge to Charles Murray's controversial The Bell Curve a few years ago.

My initial sense is that Johnson is rushing to praise the new at the expense of the old, somewhat in the same way Camille Paglia did a few years ago. And if you have to ask, "Camille who?" then that could be an indication of where Johnson will end up.

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Good TV cannot substitute for a good book
Posted by: Krotos on Jul 10, 2005 10:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's too bad Neil Postman is no longer with us, because it would have been interesting to see his critique of Johnson's arguments. I highly recommend Postman's book _Amusing Ourselves to Death_ as a sort of already-existing rebuttal (it was written in the 1980s). He makes a fairly compelling argument that a society which relies on the printed word for its public and cultural discourse, which was the case in America from colonial times to the mid-twentieth century, is generally more capable of rational, critical, complex thought than a primarily oral culture (as in pre-modern societies) or a primarily visual one (as in America since the introduction of television). The medium constrains the message, in other words, and the medium of television simply isn't capable of communicating ideas in the way that a book or essay can.

There are many points on which Postman's theory can be criticized, but if one compares the erudite speeches and writings of public figures in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries to the soundbite-laden pabulum we get today, it's hard not to suspect that Postman was on to something. He argues that the Gettysburg Address would probably have been incomprehensible to modern Americans. And it's difficult to imagine an audience of people raised on TV sitting through, let alone following, the Lincoln-Douglas debates, each of which included an hour-long introductory speech by one participant, a ninety-minute rebuttal by the other, and a thirty-minute counter-rebuttal by the first. Would Johnson consider these things to be positive developments?

I don't mean to imply that all TV is completely worthless -- there are, indeed, very good shows out there amidst the detritus, and Johnson may even have a point that their average quality is in some respects improving. But TV, like video games, should be a leisure activity. It can't take the place of the written word, and unfortunately, that's what it's been doing for quite some time. I find it hard to believe that the long-term results will be desirable.

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Remember McLuhan?
Posted by: cul on Jul 10, 2005 6:05 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In 1967 I was a senior i high school and wrote a book report on a new book called The Medium is the Massageby Canadian cultural critic and communications theorist, Marshall McLuhan.

The thrust of the book, which most people at the time (including my literature teacher) seemed to not understand at all, was that the "method" of communicating information has more influence on the public than the information itself. In other words, the structure of TV as an electronic and rapid visual medium was acting as a feedback loop restructuring and rewiring our brain's nerural configurations and thereby altering our perceptions of our environments and ourselves within that environment in an accelerated manner.

The invention of the printing press and the medium of using abstract movable type hundreds of years earlier had done the same thing, causing people at the time to rue the loss of "oral tradition" and the ability to memorize at length. While that loss was in fact real, the offset gain was an increase in the speed and dissemination of general knowledge among the common man by way of literacy and the resulting revolutions in both science and polity.

The internet and computers in general, including those used for gaming, are the new extension of this same principle. Surely no one can deny the acceleration of knowledge over the last few centuries and the continued acceleration we are experiencing today. That is the effect to which McLuhan was speaking and to which the author of this book is echoing.

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» As always, it depends Posted by: Sojourner
Author half right at best
Posted by: bionicantboy on Jul 11, 2005 11:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a totally media saturated adult, I'd have to disagree with Johnson on several points. Sure, videogames and other interactive media has the potential to offer a complex challenge, but as an avid gamer, most really don't, as just like any industry, there are a LOT of imitators, and very few innovators.

As for the subject of TV, and comparisons to shows of yesteryear, I think he's REALLY off the mark. He suggest that, for example, 30 years ago, viewers wouldn't "get" the show Lost. I think he's wrong, as 30 years ago, filmmakers were exploring non-sequential and non-literal story telling techniques. What we're seeing with modern TV dramas is the inclusion of said story telling techniques. It's an evolutionary process, but doesn't mean that a viewer from 30 years ago wouldn't understand something like Lost. Using flashbacks, or jumbling the timeline, can be understood by someone who isn't familiar with the concept, as long as it's telling a compelling story. The visual language may have grown, but I would think that people unfamiliar with it would be compelled to explore it further. Twin Peaks is a perfect example of this phenom.

A prime example is my mother, who last saw Raiders of the Lost Ark in the theatres, and watches "old" movies and stuffy British dramas. When I finally convinced her to watch Pulp Fiction a couple of years back, she "got" it. She wasn't a big fan of the foul language but got past it to watch the story being told, and liked the displaced time technique.

As for lost, it's junk food, but I like it, not because it's a compelling or uniquely complex story, but because at it's heart it IS a throwback to an old adventure story, complete with cliffhangers, mysterious beasts in the jungle etc.

Putting to much weight on the story telling techniques employed by such shows, and implying that people 30 years ago wouldn't "get" them is actually kind of disingenuous.

When it comes to interactive tech though, I think he's closer to the mark, but the book itself is WAY over rated. Glowing reviews from places that are owned by or have as advertisers the very same makers of this "junk food" are not only unsurpising, but to be expected.

Not that it wasn't a fun read, but I wouldn't read too much into it. ;)

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Popular Crap
Posted by: polyquats on Jul 13, 2005 2:11 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ALL toys (games) educate, ALL television sells.

The point is - what are we learning, and what are we buying? Who really benefits?

We are not being sold this crap for our own good.

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Better late than never?
Posted by: Chiron on Jul 18, 2005 9:32 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm so behind the curve on this thread, but here goes anyhow: Anyone who doesn't believe that quality TV shows can tweak your consciousness on every level is just missing the boat. For instance, HBO's amazing "The Wire". Anyone who can miss a single line of dialog on this intense, multi-layered drama & still follow the plot has a sharper mind than me. You really have to pay attention, but this show rewards you at every turn. It also educates regarding the convoluted web of corruption that exists in government, from the local to the international level. Wrap that up in a package that is unfailingly entertaining, with better acting than you'll find in 90% of the movies you pay a fortune to see at the local multiplex, & I'd say it's time well spent.

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