COMMENTS: 101
The Myth of Marriage
Sign up to stay up to date on the latest headlines via email.
There's a misstatement in that sentence. But it's not that marriage is in crisis. It's that the institution of marriage is, or was at any time, traditional. As Stephanie Coontz reveals in her new book, Marriage, A History: From Obedience to Intimacy, or How Love Conquered Marriage, human unions have gone through a number of evolutions. We would be remiss to think that it was ever a stable institution. Instead, it has always been in flux. It has only been based on the concept of love for 200 years; before that, it was a way of ensuring economic and political stability. Through painstakingly-detailed descriptions and anecdotes from hunter-gatherer days to the modern era, Coontz points out that "almost every marital and sexual arrangement we have seen in recent years, however startling it may appear, has been tried somewhere before." So when we think of cohabitation, gay marriage, or stepfamilies as deviating from the "norm," we are wrong, because there has never really been a "norm."
For a country obsessed with the perfect image of the nuclear family -- mother, father and two kids -- this is eye-opening. We are trying to force ourselves to be something we never really were, or were for a very brief period of time. Instead, Coontz argues, we need to be more tolerant of and open to different forms of union. People with traditional "family values" lack the skills to adapt to social realities that have changed marriage, such as the increased independence of women.
Coontz argues that many of our familial woes come from an unrealistic, idealized version of marriage, and advocates a more liberal interpretation of marriage. Many have had this idea before, but Coontz's centuries-long historical survey confirms it. Below, she answers our questions about gay marriage, the government's support (or lack thereof) of the institution, and what really makes a marriage work.
What is the central thesis of your book?
The basic argument for this book is that what we think of as the traditional marriage -- the marriage based on love, and for the purpose of making peoples' individual lives better -- this was not the purpose of marriage for thousands of years. Instead, marriage was about acquiring in-laws, jockeying for political and economic advantage, and building the family labor force. It was only 200 years ago that people began to believe that young people could choose their own mates, and should choose their own mates on the basis of something like love, which had formerly been considered a tremendous threat to marriage. As soon as people began to do that, all of the demands that we now think of as radical new demands -- from the demand for divorce, to the right to refuse a shotgun marriage, to even recognition of same-sex relations -- were immediately raised.
But it was not until the last 30 years that people began to actually act on the new ideals for beloved marriage. Social conservatives say that there has been a crisis in the last 30 years, and I agree with them, that marriage has been tremendously weakened as an institution. It's lost its former monopoly over organizing sexuality, male-female relations, political social and economic rights, and personal legitimacy. Where I disagree with them, is in how to evaluate that change and its consequences. I agree that it poses tremendous challenges to us, the breakdown of this monopoly of marriage, but I disagree with the idea that one could make marriage better by trying to shoehorn everyone back into the older forms of marriage. Because the main things that have weakened marriage as an institution are the same things that have strengthened marriage as a relationship. Because marriage is now more optional, because for the first time ever, men and women have equal rights in marriage and outside it. Because women have economic independence. This means that you can negotiate a marriage, and make it more flexible and individualized than ever before. So a marriage when it works is better for people, it's fairer, it's more satisfying, it's more loving and fulfilling than ever before in history.
But the same things that make it so are the things that allow people not to marry, or to leave a marriage that they find unsatisfying. My argument then is that you can't have one with out the other. And so we'd better learn to deal with the alternatives to marriage. Alternatives to marriage being singlehood, cohabitation, divorce and stepfamilies, all of these kinds of alternatives to marriage that have arisen.
So it's not about necessarily strengthening the union of marriage as it's been known for years, but adapting better to new forms of marriage?
I think of the revolution in marriage very much like the industrial revolution. It opened up some new opportunities for many people. It also created havoc in some peoples' lives. But the point is that it was not reversible, there was no way to go back to turn everyone into self-sufficient farmers. So we had to reform the factories, and we had to deal with the reality we faced. I would say that the revolution in marriage is the same. There is no way to force men and women to get married and stay married. There is no way to force women to make the kinds of accommodations they used to make, to enter a shotgun marriage or to stay in a marriage they find unsatisfying. So we have to learn with both the opportunities and the problems that raises for us.
You mention that evangelical Christians are just as likely to remain single or divorce as atheists.
Yes. One of the signs that this is in fact a huge, irreversible revolution in personal life on the same order as the industrial revolution, is that it doesn't matter what your values are. Everyone is affected by this. Even people who want or think they are in a traditional marriage are not exempt from these changes. So that the divorce rates of evangelical Christians are the same as those of agnostics and atheists. And in fact, the highest divorce rates in the country are found in the Bible Belt. First of all, the Bible Belt is a more poor area of the country, and poverty is a huge stress on marriage and other relationships. But I also think that there's something in the values of the Bible Belt. People who are extremely traditional, people who believe that sex outside of marriage is immoral, tend to get married early. And in today's world, that is a risk factor for divorce. So that's one of the reasons that they tend to divorce more. We are experiencing a revolutionary change in the way that marriage operates, and the dynamics of marriage. It's so much more important now to meet as equals, to be good friends as well as lovers, to have values that allow you to change through your life and negotiate. And a lot of people with so-called traditional values in fact don't have those skills.
Would you say that Republicans with "family values" have better marriages?
No, and I wouldn't say that Democrats have better marriages either. I think that you really cannot predict how well a marriage is going to go by the values that people have entering it. And in fact, one thing we do know for sure is that women with higher egalitarian ideas about gender are still slightly more likely to divorce than women with more traditional ideas. The opposite is true for men. Men with more traditional ideas about male bread-winning and female roles are more likely to divorce today than men with more egalitarian liberal views.
What is the analysis of that? Do you think it's that both parties have to come halfway to meet each other?
I think it's because for thousands of years marriage was set up to benefit men more than women. Most of the emotional expectations and the kinds of tasks that people brought to marriage involved women shouldering the physical work and emotional work that makes life goes on. So it is women that have an interest in changing the traditional terms of marriage. They are the ones most likely to ask for change. And people who actually study marital dynamics report that it is one of the best predictors that a marriage will last and be happy is when a women asks for change and the man responds positively. So I think that the difference in divorce rates is that if the woman is more egalitarian than the man, she's more likely to not get the changes she wants. But if the man is equally or more egalitarian, she is likely to get the change she wants and that marriage is going to work better, for the man as well as the woman.
So what about gay marriage? You mention that states in favor of gay marriage don't have higher divorce rates.
Massachusetts is one of the states with the two lowest divorce rates, and even though it's the poster-state for non-traditional values. It seems to me tremendously perverse to say that the institution of marriage is threatened by the one group that is clamoring to enter it, when so many heterosexuals are refusing to enter it. But I think that there's a lot of magical thinking going on in people who believe that we should campaign against gay and lesbian marriage. They are I think arguing that if we could just draw this one line in the sand we might be able to reverse all the other changes that have occurred in marriage. But in fact, I would argue that gay and lesbian marriage is not at all a cause of the changes in married life. It's a result of the revolution that heterosexuals have made in how marriage is organized.
I think we have to deal with reality. People have different moral values and I certainly would not say that any church that opposed gay marriage would have to conduct a ceremony in the church. But I think that we have to deal with the fact that marriage has always been evolving and that particularly right now we have to have some sort of recognition and rules for people who are taking on caregiving outside of traditional marriage.
Gay and lesbian relationships are not going to go away. There are millions of gays and lesbians who live together and many of them have children. So the best argument for gay and lesbian marriage, in my opinion, is the fact that gays and lesbians are no better at keeping their relationships going than heterosexuals are. So there are going to be divorces, de facto or real, and you need exit rules. If people are taking on responsibilities for children or for dependent care and one person is sacrificing, they should get the benefits of that, but they should also be subject to the same rules for dissolving their relationships so that it's not terribly unfair and a free-for-all battle when they do.
How do you think that the current government is faring in terms of supporting marriage?
I think almost all of its support is at the totally abstract level of values, family values and family rhetoric that doesn't really help either married people or unmarried people. So much of the government campaign to promote marriage has been about telling people how good marriage is for them, coaxing them to get married, sometimes offering incentives to get married, but never really investing in long-term ways to build healthy relationships, married or unmarried. There's a sort of attitude, again, magical thinking, that if we get you married, then you'll be fine and we don't have to worry about anti-poverty programs, we don't have to worry about job training for men and women, we don't have to worry about child-care. And if we can't get you married, well then we don't want to bother with you either, for a different reason. If we get you married we say you're fine, you don't need anything else. And if you don't get married, it's like you're not fine and you don't deserve anything else. So I find the rhetoric and the millions of dollars that are being spent to promote marriage very frustrating because it seems to me that we would make a better effort to do two other approaches. 1. If you're going to fight poverty, the best way to fight that is to get good child-care, affordable child-care, and decent jobs. And 2. If you want to help people do their relationships better, I'm all for that. And if we help people with healthy relationships many of those people will marry. But those counseling skills ought to be available to people who have no plans to marry or who are divorcing.
What do you think of the current emphasis on marriage counseling and therapy?
Well, we're still in the early stages of figuring out what interventions work and what ones don't. I think that it is important to allow people better access to counseling, but as I said, I think that we would do better to not confine that to people who marry or have intentions to marry, but to any couple who wants that kind of counseling. So that's the first thing I would say that is a problem with this new emphasis on marriage preparation, that it excludes so many couples. The second is that a lot of people are getting themselves certified as marriage counselors in two or three days, and then they go into communities with which they're not familiar. And we don't know exactly what some of them will be teaching. Some of these people are sincere people but people whose values about how a marriage should operate may be quite different than the on-the-ground reality for the impoverished couple who they're trying to help. So I'm concerned about that too. What I'm trying to say is that tested interventions to help people strengthen their relationships, married or unmarried, are a very good thing. But I worry about untested ones.
So from all of your research, if you were to sum up what does make marriage work, what would you say?
Well, first of all, there are two different things: one is interpersonal relations, and one is social context. You cannot produce one success without support from the other. Married couples in their interpersonal way certainly have to be deeper friends and more respectful of each other than at any time in the past. It used to be that people basically fell in love with the gender role. "This is a manly man, he'll take care of me." "This is a womanly woman, she'll take care of my kids." Nowadays, people need to like each other as much as they love each other, and they need to respect each other. That's one important thing. They need to learn how to negotiate and how to handle conflict more than they had to in the past when the rules of marriage just said that women had to obey.
But in addition to that, people need support systems. We live in a very unfriendly environment for families. Married couples, if they're going to keep their marriages going, need things like parental leave, subsidized parental leave so it's not a class privilege to take some time with your kids. They need family-friendly work policies. They need high quality, affordable child-care. So that they don't have to call in sick or quit a job or spend hours agonizing about their kids. The lack of these social supports for families really stresses families. So it's very ironic that many of the people who claim to be most in favor of marriage do not spend any time building these support systems.
Stay up to date with the latest AlterNet headlines via email
Comments are closed-
Posted by: xenacat on Jul 21, 2005 5:38 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: xenacat
Posted by: agarillo
» RE: xenacat
Posted by: xenacat
» Lots of married gays do swing
Posted by: pricklybear
Comments are closed-
Posted by: nise52 on Jul 21, 2005 5:56 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The man stammered and apologized to me. 15 minutes after he hung up with me he walked over to my husband, told him about the call with me, and apologized to him as well. He also approved the time off request.
This was in 1988 but the attitudes still exist today. And parents are still stressed out because of it. Neither corporate America nor the Federal government have done much to alleviate such stress.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: 1950's attitudes have to go as well...
Posted by: eggnog2464
» RE: 1950's attitudes have to go as well...
Posted by: Iana_g
» RE: 1950's attitudes have to go as well...
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: 1950's attitudes have to go as well...
Posted by: churchofone
» RE: 1950's attitudes have to go as well...
Posted by: Iana_g
» On the other hand, Iana_g....
Posted by: HeidiLockwood
» RE: 1950's attitudes have to go as well...
Posted by: IndyElliott
» RE: 1950's attitudes have to go as well...
Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: 1950's attitudes have to go as well...
Posted by: bornxeyed
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Angie on Jul 21, 2005 6:22 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Men and women contemplating a marriage should understand whether they're more liberal or egalitarian, and the compatibility of their desires. That would make it easier to navigate the changes brought on by society.
By the way, it seemed the article started out pointing out that "traditional" isn't really traditional in this context. However, the word was used a lot to refer to ideas, terms, etc. But I understand its a quick and easy way to convey the ideas.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Equality
Posted by: turil
» RE: quality
Posted by: nazrafel
» RE: quality
Posted by: turil
» Re Nazrafel and Turil, from one who did it too
Posted by: HeidiLockwood
» RE: e Nazrafel and Turil, from one who did it too
Posted by: turil
» RE: quality
Posted by: Angie
» Men need a movement
Posted by: Plankton
» Supposedly there already is
Posted by: Kat144
» Yes, Plankton, there is.
Posted by: HeidiLockwood
» RE: quality
Posted by: ccbite
» RE: Know thyself
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Know thyself
Posted by: Angie
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Sojourner on Jul 21, 2005 8:37 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: nakis on Jul 21, 2005 8:59 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What I'm whining about is that traditional church sanctioned vows have to include the till death do you part part. I know you want to enter such a mutually exclusive relationship as long term and hard work is required at times but so many people end up changing. Things change. People change. This is a fact of the Universe. Every is in motion. Everything changes. And sometimes things don't survive the changes.
I know so many people who gotten divorced for very good reasons. So why require two people to vow before the Creator to make their union till death. It is a vow before the Creator that no one, no one, can predict and prove that they will be able to fulfill.
Good gravy, the fundamentalists who believe in this to the nth degree love the stories in the Bible that are riddled with the human failing and need to change that destroys relationships.
I think the divorce rates in Mass and the Bible belt speak volumes.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: turil on Jul 21, 2005 8:25 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My husband and I chose an unusual route to marriage that worked pretty well for us. We married twice. The first time was just for us - it wasn't "official" in any way - no officiant, no audience, no paperwork. The two of us had our own little ceremony with a handfasting (harder to do without other people, but not impossible!), and we considered ourselves married. A year later, on our anniversary, we had an official wedding with all the usual pomp and circumstance and paperwork. The first wedding gave us an opportunity to try out marriage without all the messy legal issues that might have come up if we had decided we didn't like it. I highly recommend it, and I completely agree with Coontz here that a more open mind about marriage and couplehood in general would be a boon to our society.
One question about the article. In the last paragraph of the interview, Coontz talks about social support systems for married couples. But she only mentions policies that have to do with children. Does Coontz equate marriage with only those couples who choose to have a kid? Or was that just an unintended outcome of editing?
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Gillian-B on Jul 21, 2005 9:02 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Marriage is not mono-lithic. For instance, the Patels of India, regardless of which countries they reside in, still have family traditions of choosing a mate for their children, even while they have made some adaptations to 21st Century life.
While the US was extolling the virtues of monogamy and the nuclear family, other societies were encouraging the continuity of extended families, etc. Our way is not the only way ... and our definition of the ideal family is not the best or the only one.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» We are so Eurocentric sometimes.
Posted by: turil
Comments are closed-
Posted by: thirdmg on Jul 21, 2005 9:37 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In his controversial 1994 book, Same-Sex Unions in Premodern Europe, the late John Boswell, who was the A. Whitney Griswold Professor of History at Yale University, argued similarly that our idea of marriage as "a permanent romantic commitment between two people, witnessed and recognized by the community" is a modern notion.
He explained further that that our modern ideas of marriage are not very similar to ancient ones, and that the meanings and purposes of marriage terms and customs varied widely from ancient to modern times. He pointed out, for example, that throughout most of the ancient Greek and Roman periods, our modern idea of a man and a woman falling in love, which would lead, in turn, to a consenting marriage, would have been an amusing oddity and ran contrary to the usually pragmatic purpose for marriage - property arrangements between consenting families.
The controversy raised by the book was Boswell's claim that publicly recognized same-sex unions - which he argued were marriages in the modern sense of the term - are nothing new in Western culture and history, or in Christian ritual and tradition. He presented evidence that both the Catholic and the Orthodox Churches performed same-sex union liturgies, and that they strongly resemble heterosexual marriage ceremonies and were practiced into modern times. The primary basis for his claim is Greek texts of the ceremonies. (See the English translations: Same-Sex Union Rites.) Historians do not deny the existence of the texts, or that they are same-sex union rites. The controversy was about whether they were marriage rites and whether their purpose was sexual in intent. On both counts, Boswell concluded that they were.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: pbr90king on Jul 21, 2005 9:45 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However, the new "wrinkle" in modern marriage is that it questions and tests the prevailing attitudes of totalitarian marriage where one or both partners are legitimized by dominance of one over the other. This results in both domestic violence and the illogical idea that people should be happy in dominant and submissive relationships that is, and was, the evolution of "traditional" marriage. That modern marriages can be more flexible in our attitudes toward them is purely a result of women's education, and the thoughtful outcome of males considering the effects of totalitarianism in a global world. Recognizing that women have been reduced to submission to a world of totalitarian males for centuries, the more enlightened among them recognize the value and advantage of releasing that "iron grip" to dignify women with a responsibility for upholding marital values without having to be chained to the home, and subject to male whims and fancies. Recognizing that women are entitled to whims and fancies, the same as males, is a first step in removing the invisible fences by which women are made captives of their mates and by society - as the evolution of the cave man method of wife acquisition. The advantages for males of helping to make women free is the desire of women to feel free to produce the advantages of their sex available to the world, and to their mates, without the guilt, shame, or requirement that removes the joy of having such a relationship. The downside to such a process is that men must begin to address the feelings of less control that are characteristic of non-totalitarian relationships, and learn to negotiate them as they do in other settings. To date, this movement is in its infancy but has great promise as men continue to mine this astronomically rich field of dignity and respect obtainable through thoughtful methods of acquiescence rather than through forceful methods of totalitarianism through traditional marriage. As with women working, flexibility is always the key to success because of its ability to address logistics and still maintain high levels of efficiency.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Totalitarian effects of Marriage Under Fire
Posted by: pomes
» RE: Totalitarian effects of Marriage Under Fire
Posted by: swingingbetty
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mmadden1@cox.net on Jul 21, 2005 11:03 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: RedRobin on Jul 21, 2005 11:18 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I must add, however, that I think some people are missing the elephant in the room. Fundamentalists are not just upset about the changes that have occurred to their idealized traditional family. That is just rhetoric to hide their true objection. Fundamentalists believe that homosexuality is a sin and that to legalize gay marriage would be condoning a sin, which of course they will not do. They will offer the phrase, "Love the sinner, hate the sin." That is baloney. Most, but not all, fundamental Christians find gays and lesbians as repulsive as their "sin". They believe that gays and lesbians "choose" their "lifestyle", and thus, choose to be sinners. Research and science mean nothing to them, as the creationism movement demonstrates.
Having spent decades as a Catholic, then a member of a large conservative Christian religion, I know fundamentalism fairly well. I kept my liberal views hidden, and have lived a fairly traditional life. So people thought I was safe to talk to. Hah!! I can tell you that anti-gay attitudes, racism, and sexism are alive and well in fundamental Christianity. I will say, that many folks are working on the racism and sexism stuff, meaning they are trying to be more open and accepting, and less prejudiced. But as long as religious leaders use the Old Testament as a religious guide that works for today, anti-gay attitudes and behavior will persist.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: RedRobin
Posted by: beata
» RE: edRobin
Posted by: O9time
» RE: edRobin
Posted by: RedRobin
» RE: Please read
Posted by: rodrigo_c
» RE: Please read
Posted by: Kat144
» RE: Where are your facts?
Posted by: rodrigo_c
» RE: Where are your facts?
Posted by: Kat144
» Kat144 Didn't you forget something?
Posted by: HeidiLockwood
» RE: Kat144 Didn't you forget something?
Posted by: Kat144
» RE: Please read
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE:my neocons???
Posted by: rodrigo_c
» RE: Please read
Posted by: jarandhel
» RE: Please read
Posted by: paulaH
» RE: edRobin - What Will Follow?
Posted by: thirdmg
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Iana_g on Jul 21, 2005 11:41 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I fear that even the name, "America", will soon be a target. All the left has to do is find someone who is offended by it.
When did an entire political party decide to change everything?
Women are unhappier now than they ever have been. The left feels that it is because their policies haven't been implemented enough. The right feels that going back to original intent--to happier times--is the answer.
Is there one among you who might think this through and agree with me?
I don't see where the left is capable of taking care of me. I see the right as the party of life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. The left seems to be the party of death, socialized homogeneous lifestyle, and state ownership.
I'm done with the democrats--or whatever they are...
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Why?
Posted by: turil
» RE: Why?
Posted by: Iana_g
» RE: Why?
Posted by: valbevill
» Happiness is subjective.
Posted by: turil
» RE: Why?
Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: Why?
Posted by: turil
» Therein lies the problem
Posted by: Kat144
» People are confused.
Posted by: turil
» RE: People are confused.
Posted by: Kat144
» RE: Why?
Posted by: paulaH
» RE: The Myth of Modern Feminism
Posted by: churchofone
» RE: The Myth of Modern Feminism
Posted by: Iana_g
» RE: The Myth of Modern Feminism
Posted by: dp1228
» RE: The Myth of Modern Feminism
Posted by: HeidiLockwood
» Correction of suggested reading list for Iana_g
Posted by: HeidiLockwood
» RE: The Myth of Modern Feminism
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: Which Myth?
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» RE: Which Myth?
Posted by: Iana_g
» RE: Which Myth?
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Which Myth?
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» Insults aren't very productive
Posted by: turil
» RE: The Myth of Modern Feminism
Posted by: pomes
» RE: The Myth of Modern Feminism
Posted by: existential comrade
» RE: The Myth of Modern Feminism
Posted by: kittynboi
» Funny, I'm VERY happy
Posted by: Kat144
Comments are closed-
Posted by: FlapJackSeven on Jul 21, 2005 11:57 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Friendly Question: Why 23 years ago?
Posted by: AdamSelene40
Comments are closed-
Posted by: hhartman on Jul 21, 2005 1:18 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Analog2 on Jul 21, 2005 2:48 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If after 5 years and if there are no children involved, a marriage license would expire if not renewed.
Increases or decreases in net worth of the partners will be split 50/50.
How about it?
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: marriage licenses should expire
Posted by: maiaoming
» Hey, analog2 -
Posted by: HeidiLockwood
» Why no children?
Posted by: Kat144
» RE: Why no children?
Posted by: Analog2
» Carefull, Analog...
Posted by: HeidiLockwood
» RE: Why no children?
Posted by: Kat144
» RE: Why no children?
Posted by: Analog2
» RE: marriage licenses should expire
Posted by: pricklybear
Comments are closed-
Posted by: CrystalD on Jul 21, 2005 4:34 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ha ha. "Marriage" is an excellent book, and well worth plowing through. Most of her points are well taken.
One thing that needs to be addressed, and that Coontz only refers to in passing: Our society is not the first to have no-fault divorce and gender equality. These conditions operated in most hunting-gathering and horticultural societies, where marriage was a means to build alliances, not control women. If a woman wanted to leave her husband, she usually could, and usually got to keep her children. But - and this is a BIG but - divorced women were not reduced to penury as they so often are in the modern United States. Extended family networks and redistribution of resources meant that no-one had to live in poverty.
Likewise, since polygamy was permitted in most societies, a divorced woman could easily find a new husband (and usually did pretty quickly). And shorter lifespans meant that not a lot of old people outlived their capacities and their income.
No-fault divorce has been a blessing for many people trapped in miserable marriages, as Coontz rightly points out. However, many divorced older women can kiss goodbye forever to any financial security or sexual fulfilment. Welcome to the modern nunnery, where you get poverty and chastity whether you like it or not.
The fact is that marriage cannot, these days, serve as a safety net or sinecure. Coontz addresses this point in "Marriage" - that basing a marriage on love necessarily makes it more fragile. So what can be done to ensure the welfare of people, especially women and children, if they cannot depend on marriage to keep 'em banked and bounced? What we sorely need is not some right-wing campaign to bring back marriage as God intended, but rather, some kind of provision for the vulnerable among us.
It also demands a rethink of our consumer culture where we are encouraged to treat spouses and family members like toys instead of people. Your wife is forty and not so hot anymore? Trade her in for a fresh young thing, no problem! Arranged marriages may have stunk for many people but they gave others - the not-so-pretty, the not-so-sparkling - a chance at love that grew over time.
Of course, rethinking our entire culture is a LOT more trouble than just trying to bring back "famblee values," I guess.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: AdamSelene40 on Jul 22, 2005 7:29 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
“Gay Marriage” debate is more or less new. Some Christian and Jewish communities began solemnizing same sex unions, roughly equivalent to their mixed sex marriages since the early 1970s. In 1996 the Clinton Administration passed the Defense of Marriage Act depriving such unions of at least 1300 rights, protections and entitlements enjoyed by mixed sex marriages. In 2000
the Supreme Court (Lawrence v. Texas) 2000 opened the door to the possibility of a Constitutional foundation for State sanctioned same-sex unions – providing the Religious Right with another Wedge Issue.
Does any of this sound familiar?
BUT: there’s been an unbroken debate about the role of Women in marriage, society and religion … the pros and cons of Romantic Love has been in unbroken debate since Margaret Fell and George Fox went their separate ways in the 1660s. But to read this last thread, It’s as if The Enlightenment, the Liberal Movement, the Code Napoleon, the Victorian Reform movement, The Sennica Falls Movement, Emma Goldman, Margaret Sanger and Havelock Ellis, Simone de Beauvoir, Millet, Freidan, Firestone, Dodson, et al had NOTHING whatever to say on the subject.
I had thought that the idea that Marriage is a cultural artifact that changes from time to time and place to place to meet each society’s needs was a “given” of any number of social sciences.
It’s the idea that American Civil Law draws it’s authority from The Church of Jesus Christ, and not from “the consent of the governed, ” …. that the Founding Fathers -- (now re-named The Founders, so as to create the impression that women too had been involved in drafting the Constitution ) – were infallible Prophets as well as legislators and innovators – that’s the New and Radical doctrine.
And it’s a scary pair of propositions, too!
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Tell us Again for the First Time -- we keep forgetting
Posted by: existential comrade
» RE: Tell us Again for the First Time -- we keep forgetting
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» RE: Tell us Again for the First Time -- we keep forgetting
Posted by: existential comrade
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rayo on Jul 22, 2005 9:54 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: sbell on Jul 22, 2005 1:18 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have seen marriages where each partner has utter contempt for each other last for upwards of 40 years. I have seen marriages where people were desperately in love end in less than a year.
The true reality is that marriage is a partnership, a financial contract. Gay people aren't protesting for the right to be in love, they are protesting for the right to enter into a financial contract with the person of their choice.
When a married couple decides to divorce, they don't go to court over who decided to stray, or who emotionally checked out of the relationship; they go to court to fight over the "stuff" (money, kids, possessions.)
So I say give the true reality of what a marriage contract is. It has nothing to do with religion, love, sex, or friendship (although those things may help or hinder.) Marriage is a financial contract, and like all financial contracts it should not be entered into lightly.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Liquesce on Jul 24, 2005 9:49 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Last 'how many' years ?
Posted by: AdamSelene40
Comments are closed-
Posted by: AZcrone on Jul 24, 2005 10:01 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxpayne on Jul 24, 2005 6:15 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: xenacat on Jul 21, 2005 5:38 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: xenacat
Posted by: agarillo
» RE: xenacat
Posted by: xenacat
» Lots of married gays do swing
Posted by: pricklybear
Comments are closed-
Posted by: nise52 on Jul 21, 2005 5:56 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The man stammered and apologized to me. 15 minutes after he hung up with me he walked over to my husband, told him about the call with me, and apologized to him as well. He also approved the time off request.
This was in 1988 but the attitudes still exist today. And parents are still stressed out because of it. Neither corporate America nor the Federal government have done much to alleviate such stress.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: 1950's attitudes have to go as well...
Posted by: eggnog2464
» RE: 1950's attitudes have to go as well...
Posted by: Iana_g
» RE: 1950's attitudes have to go as well...
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: 1950's attitudes have to go as well...
Posted by: churchofone
» RE: 1950's attitudes have to go as well...
Posted by: Iana_g
» On the other hand, Iana_g....
Posted by: HeidiLockwood
» RE: 1950's attitudes have to go as well...
Posted by: IndyElliott
» RE: 1950's attitudes have to go as well...
Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: 1950's attitudes have to go as well...
Posted by: bornxeyed
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Angie on Jul 21, 2005 6:22 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Men and women contemplating a marriage should understand whether they're more liberal or egalitarian, and the compatibility of their desires. That would make it easier to navigate the changes brought on by society.
By the way, it seemed the article started out pointing out that "traditional" isn't really traditional in this context. However, the word was used a lot to refer to ideas, terms, etc. But I understand its a quick and easy way to convey the ideas.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Equality
Posted by: turil
» RE: quality
Posted by: nazrafel
» RE: quality
Posted by: turil
» Re Nazrafel and Turil, from one who did it too
Posted by: HeidiLockwood
» RE: e Nazrafel and Turil, from one who did it too
Posted by: turil
» RE: quality
Posted by: Angie
» Men need a movement
Posted by: Plankton
» Supposedly there already is
Posted by: Kat144
» Yes, Plankton, there is.
Posted by: HeidiLockwood
» RE: quality
Posted by: ccbite
» RE: Know thyself
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Know thyself
Posted by: Angie
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Sojourner on Jul 21, 2005 8:37 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: nakis on Jul 21, 2005 8:59 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What I'm whining about is that traditional church sanctioned vows have to include the till death do you part part. I know you want to enter such a mutually exclusive relationship as long term and hard work is required at times but so many people end up changing. Things change. People change. This is a fact of the Universe. Every is in motion. Everything changes. And sometimes things don't survive the changes.
I know so many people who gotten divorced for very good reasons. So why require two people to vow before the Creator to make their union till death. It is a vow before the Creator that no one, no one, can predict and prove that they will be able to fulfill.
Good gravy, the fundamentalists who believe in this to the nth degree love the stories in the Bible that are riddled with the human failing and need to change that destroys relationships.
I think the divorce rates in Mass and the Bible belt speak volumes.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: turil on Jul 21, 2005 8:25 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My husband and I chose an unusual route to marriage that worked pretty well for us. We married twice. The first time was just for us - it wasn't "official" in any way - no officiant, no audience, no paperwork. The two of us had our own little ceremony with a handfasting (harder to do without other people, but not impossible!), and we considered ourselves married. A year later, on our anniversary, we had an official wedding with all the usual pomp and circumstance and paperwork. The first wedding gave us an opportunity to try out marriage without all the messy legal issues that might have come up if we had decided we didn't like it. I highly recommend it, and I completely agree with Coontz here that a more open mind about marriage and couplehood in general would be a boon to our society.
One question about the article. In the last paragraph of the interview, Coontz talks about social support systems for married couples. But she only mentions policies that have to do with children. Does Coontz equate marriage with only those couples who choose to have a kid? Or was that just an unintended outcome of editing?
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Gillian-B on Jul 21, 2005 9:02 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Marriage is not mono-lithic. For instance, the Patels of India, regardless of which countries they reside in, still have family traditions of choosing a mate for their children, even while they have made some adaptations to 21st Century life.
While the US was extolling the virtues of monogamy and the nuclear family, other societies were encouraging the continuity of extended families, etc. Our way is not the only way ... and our definition of the ideal family is not the best or the only one.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» We are so Eurocentric sometimes.
Posted by: turil
Comments are closed-
Posted by: thirdmg on Jul 21, 2005 9:37 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In his controversial 1994 book, Same-Sex Unions in Premodern Europe, the late John Boswell, who was the A. Whitney Griswold Professor of History at Yale University, argued similarly that our idea of marriage as "a permanent romantic commitment between two people, witnessed and recognized by the community" is a modern notion.
He explained further that that our modern ideas of marriage are not very similar to ancient ones, and that the meanings and purposes of marriage terms and customs varied widely from ancient to modern times. He pointed out, for example, that throughout most of the ancient Greek and Roman periods, our modern idea of a man and a woman falling in love, which would lead, in turn, to a consenting marriage, would have been an amusing oddity and ran contrary to the usually pragmatic purpose for marriage - property arrangements between consenting families.
The controversy raised by the book was Boswell's claim that publicly recognized same-sex unions - which he argued were marriages in the modern sense of the term - are nothing new in Western culture and history, or in Christian ritual and tradition. He presented evidence that both the Catholic and the Orthodox Churches performed same-sex union liturgies, and that they strongly resemble heterosexual marriage ceremonies and were practiced into modern times. The primary basis for his claim is Greek texts of the ceremonies. (See the English translations: Same-Sex Union Rites.) Historians do not deny the existence of the texts, or that they are same-sex union rites. The controversy was about whether they were marriage rites and whether their purpose was sexual in intent. On both counts, Boswell concluded that they were.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: pbr90king on Jul 21, 2005 9:45 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However, the new "wrinkle" in modern marriage is that it questions and tests the prevailing attitudes of totalitarian marriage where one or both partners are legitimized by dominance of one over the other. This results in both domestic violence and the illogical idea that people should be happy in dominant and submissive relationships that is, and was, the evolution of "traditional" marriage. That modern marriages can be more flexible in our attitudes toward them is purely a result of women's education, and the thoughtful outcome of males considering the effects of totalitarianism in a global world. Recognizing that women have been reduced to submission to a world of totalitarian males for centuries, the more enlightened among them recognize the value and advantage of releasing that "iron grip" to dignify women with a responsibility for upholding marital values without having to be chained to the home, and subject to male whims and fancies. Recognizing that women are entitled to whims and fancies, the same as males, is a first step in removing the invisible fences by which women are made captives of their mates and by society - as the evolution of the cave man method of wife acquisition. The advantages for males of helping to make women free is the desire of women to feel free to produce the advantages of their sex available to the world, and to their mates, without the guilt, shame, or requirement that removes the joy of having such a relationship. The downside to such a process is that men must begin to address the feelings of less control that are characteristic of non-totalitarian relationships, and learn to negotiate them as they do in other settings. To date, this movement is in its infancy but has great promise as men continue to mine this astronomically rich field of dignity and respect obtainable through thoughtful methods of acquiescence rather than through forceful methods of totalitarianism through traditional marriage. As with women working, flexibility is always the key to success because of its ability to address logistics and still maintain high levels of efficiency.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Totalitarian effects of Marriage Under Fire
Posted by: pomes
» RE: Totalitarian effects of Marriage Under Fire
Posted by: swingingbetty
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mmadden1@cox.net on Jul 21, 2005 11:03 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: RedRobin on Jul 21, 2005 11:18 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I must add, however, that I think some people are missing the elephant in the room. Fundamentalists are not just upset about the changes that have occurred to their idealized traditional family. That is just rhetoric to hide their true objection. Fundamentalists believe that homosexuality is a sin and that to legalize gay marriage would be condoning a sin, which of course they will not do. They will offer the phrase, "Love the sinner, hate the sin." That is baloney. Most, but not all, fundamental Christians find gays and lesbians as repulsive as their "sin". They believe that gays and lesbians "choose" their "lifestyle", and thus, choose to be sinners. Research and science mean nothing to them, as the creationism movement demonstrates.
Having spent decades as a Catholic, then a member of a large conservative Christian religion, I know fundamentalism fairly well. I kept my liberal views hidden, and have lived a fairly traditional life. So people thought I was safe to talk to. Hah!! I can tell you that anti-gay attitudes, racism, and sexism are alive and well in fundamental Christianity. I will say, that many folks are working on the racism and sexism stuff, meaning they are trying to be more open and accepting, and less prejudiced. But as long as religious leaders use the Old Testament as a religious guide that works for today, anti-gay attitudes and behavior will persist.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: RedRobin
Posted by: beata
» RE: edRobin
Posted by: O9time
» RE: edRobin
Posted by: RedRobin
» RE: Please read
Posted by: rodrigo_c
» RE: Please read
Posted by: Kat144
» RE: Where are your facts?
Posted by: rodrigo_c
» RE: Where are your facts?
Posted by: Kat144
» Kat144 Didn't you forget something?
Posted by: HeidiLockwood
» RE: Kat144 Didn't you forget something?
Posted by: Kat144
» RE: Please read
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE:my neocons???
Posted by: rodrigo_c
» RE: Please read
Posted by: jarandhel
» RE: Please read
Posted by: paulaH
» RE: edRobin - What Will Follow?
Posted by: thirdmg
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Iana_g on Jul 21, 2005 11:41 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I fear that even the name, "America", will soon be a target. All the left has to do is find someone who is offended by it.
When did an entire political party decide to change everything?
Women are unhappier now than they ever have been. The left feels that it is because their policies haven't been implemented enough. The right feels that going back to original intent--to happier times--is the answer.
Is there one among you who might think this through and agree with me?
I don't see where the left is capable of taking care of me. I see the right as the party of life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. The left seems to be the party of death, socialized homogeneous lifestyle, and state ownership.
I'm done with the democrats--or whatever they are...
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Why?
Posted by: turil
» RE: Why?
Posted by: Iana_g
» RE: Why?
Posted by: valbevill
» Happiness is subjective.
Posted by: turil
» RE: Why?
Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: Why?
Posted by: turil
» Therein lies the problem
Posted by: Kat144
» People are confused.
Posted by: turil
» RE: People are confused.
Posted by: Kat144
» RE: Why?
Posted by: paulaH
» RE: The Myth of Modern Feminism
Posted by: churchofone
» RE: The Myth of Modern Feminism
Posted by: Iana_g
» RE: The Myth of Modern Feminism
Posted by: dp1228
» RE: The Myth of Modern Feminism
Posted by: HeidiLockwood
» Correction of suggested reading list for Iana_g
Posted by: HeidiLockwood
» RE: The Myth of Modern Feminism
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: Which Myth?
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» RE: Which Myth?
Posted by: Iana_g
» RE: Which Myth?
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Which Myth?
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» Insults aren't very productive
Posted by: turil
» RE: The Myth of Modern Feminism
Posted by: pomes
» RE: The Myth of Modern Feminism
Posted by: existential comrade
» RE: The Myth of Modern Feminism
Posted by: kittynboi
» Funny, I'm VERY happy
Posted by: Kat144
Comments are closed-
Posted by: FlapJackSeven on Jul 21, 2005 11:57 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Friendly Question: Why 23 years ago?
Posted by: AdamSelene40
Comments are closed-
Posted by: hhartman on Jul 21, 2005 1:18 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Analog2 on Jul 21, 2005 2:48 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If after 5 years and if there are no children involved, a marriage license would expire if not renewed.
Increases or decreases in net worth of the partners will be split 50/50.
How about it?
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: marriage licenses should expire
Posted by: maiaoming
» Hey, analog2 -
Posted by: HeidiLockwood
» Why no children?
Posted by: Kat144
» RE: Why no children?
Posted by: Analog2
» Carefull, Analog...
Posted by: HeidiLockwood
» RE: Why no children?
Posted by: Kat144
» RE: Why no children?
Posted by: Analog2
» RE: marriage licenses should expire
Posted by: pricklybear
Comments are closed-
Posted by: CrystalD on Jul 21, 2005 4:34 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ha ha. "Marriage" is an excellent book, and well worth plowing through. Most of her points are well taken.
One thing that needs to be addressed, and that Coontz only refers to in passing: Our society is not the first to have no-fault divorce and gender equality. These conditions operated in most hunting-gathering and horticultural societies, where marriage was a means to build alliances, not control women. If a woman wanted to leave her husband, she usually could, and usually got to keep her children. But - and this is a BIG but - divorced women were not reduced to penury as they so often are in the modern United States. Extended family networks and redistribution of resources meant that no-one had to live in poverty.
Likewise, since polygamy was permitted in most societies, a divorced woman could easily find a new husband (and usually did pretty quickly). And shorter lifespans meant that not a lot of old people outlived their capacities and their income.
No-fault divorce has been a blessing for many people trapped in miserable marriages, as Coontz rightly points out. However, many divorced older women can kiss goodbye forever to any financial security or sexual fulfilment. Welcome to the modern nunnery, where you get poverty and chastity whether you like it or not.
The fact is that marriage cannot, these days, serve as a safety net or sinecure. Coontz addresses this point in "Marriage" - that basing a marriage on love necessarily makes it more fragile. So what can be done to ensure the welfare of people, especially women and children, if they cannot depend on marriage to keep 'em banked and bounced? What we sorely need is not some right-wing campaign to bring back marriage as God intended, but rather, some kind of provision for the vulnerable among us.
It also demands a rethink of our consumer culture where we are encouraged to treat spouses and family members like toys instead of people. Your wife is forty and not so hot anymore? Trade her in for a fresh young thing, no problem! Arranged marriages may have stunk for many people but they gave others - the not-so-pretty, the not-so-sparkling - a chance at love that grew over time.
Of course, rethinking our entire culture is a LOT more trouble than just trying to bring back "famblee values," I guess.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: AdamSelene40 on Jul 22, 2005 7:29 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
“Gay Marriage” debate is more or less new. Some Christian and Jewish communities began solemnizing same sex unions, roughly equivalent to their mixed sex marriages since the early 1970s. In 1996 the Clinton Administration passed the Defense of Marriage Act depriving such unions of at least 1300 rights, protections and entitlements enjoyed by mixed sex marriages. In 2000
the Supreme Court (Lawrence v. Texas) 2000 opened the door to the possibility of a Constitutional foundation for State sanctioned same-sex unions – providing the Religious Right with another Wedge Issue.
Does any of this sound familiar?
BUT: there’s been an unbroken debate about the role of Women in marriage, society and religion … the pros and cons of Romantic Love has been in unbroken debate since Margaret Fell and George Fox went their separate ways in the 1660s. But to read this last thread, It’s as if The Enlightenment, the Liberal Movement, the Code Napoleon, the Victorian Reform movement, The Sennica Falls Movement, Emma Goldman, Margaret Sanger and Havelock Ellis, Simone de Beauvoir, Millet, Freidan, Firestone, Dodson, et al had NOTHING whatever to say on the subject.
I had thought that the idea that Marriage is a cultural artifact that changes from time to time and place to place to meet each society’s needs was a “given” of any number of social sciences.
It’s the idea that American Civil Law draws it’s authority from The Church of Jesus Christ, and not from “the consent of the governed, ” …. that the Founding Fathers -- (now re-named The Founders, so as to create the impression that women too had been involved in drafting the Constitution ) – were infallible Prophets as well as legislators and innovators – that’s the New and Radical doctrine.
And it’s a scary pair of propositions, too!
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Tell us Again for the First Time -- we keep forgetting
Posted by: existential comrade
» RE: Tell us Again for the First Time -- we keep forgetting
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» RE: Tell us Again for the First Time -- we keep forgetting
Posted by: existential comrade
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rayo on Jul 22, 2005 9:54 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: sbell on Jul 22, 2005 1:18 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have seen marriages where each partner has utter contempt for each other last for upwards of 40 years. I have seen marriages where people were desperately in love end in less than a year.
The true reality is that marriage is a partnership, a financial contract. Gay people aren't protesting for the right to be in love, they are protesting for the right to enter into a financial contract with the person of their choice.
When a married couple decides to divorce, they don't go to court over who decided to stray, or who emotionally checked out of the relationship; they go to court to fight over the "stuff" (money, kids, possessions.)
So I say give the true reality of what a marriage contract is. It has nothing to do with religion, love, sex, or friendship (although those things may help or hinder.) Marriage is a financial contract, and like all financial contracts it should not be entered into lightly.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Liquesce on Jul 24, 2005 9:49 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Last 'how many' years ?
Posted by: AdamSelene40
Comments are closed-
Posted by: AZcrone on Jul 24, 2005 10:01 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxpayne on Jul 24, 2005 6:15 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Vancouver's Games Will Be the Gayest Olympics Ever
Trial Begins for Activist Who Fought to Protect Federal Lands from Drilling -- Join the Protest
Starbucks' Cop-Out to Gun Nuts: Customers Served Coffee While Strapped




