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The Myth of Marriage

By Monica Mehta, AlterNet. Posted July 21, 2005.


A radical new book debunks the concept of marriage as a time-honored institution, and argues that we need to loosen up about it.
Stephanie Coontz on Marriage
Marriage: A History

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The institution of traditional marriage is in a state of crisis.

There's a misstatement in that sentence. But it's not that marriage is in crisis. It's that the institution of marriage is, or was at any time, traditional. As Stephanie Coontz reveals in her new book, Marriage, A History: From Obedience to Intimacy, or How Love Conquered Marriage, human unions have gone through a number of evolutions. We would be remiss to think that it was ever a stable institution. Instead, it has always been in flux. It has only been based on the concept of love for 200 years; before that, it was a way of ensuring economic and political stability. Through painstakingly-detailed descriptions and anecdotes from hunter-gatherer days to the modern era, Coontz points out that "almost every marital and sexual arrangement we have seen in recent years, however startling it may appear, has been tried somewhere before." So when we think of cohabitation, gay marriage, or stepfamilies as deviating from the "norm," we are wrong, because there has never really been a "norm."

For a country obsessed with the perfect image of the nuclear family -- mother, father and two kids -- this is eye-opening. We are trying to force ourselves to be something we never really were, or were for a very brief period of time. Instead, Coontz argues, we need to be more tolerant of and open to different forms of union. People with traditional "family values" lack the skills to adapt to social realities that have changed marriage, such as the increased independence of women.

Coontz argues that many of our familial woes come from an unrealistic, idealized version of marriage, and advocates a more liberal interpretation of marriage. Many have had this idea before, but Coontz's centuries-long historical survey confirms it. Below, she answers our questions about gay marriage, the government's support (or lack thereof) of the institution, and what really makes a marriage work.

What is the central thesis of your book?

The basic argument for this book is that what we think of as the traditional marriage -- the marriage based on love, and for the purpose of making peoples' individual lives better -- this was not the purpose of marriage for thousands of years. Instead, marriage was about acquiring in-laws, jockeying for political and economic advantage, and building the family labor force. It was only 200 years ago that people began to believe that young people could choose their own mates, and should choose their own mates on the basis of something like love, which had formerly been considered a tremendous threat to marriage. As soon as people began to do that, all of the demands that we now think of as radical new demands -- from the demand for divorce, to the right to refuse a shotgun marriage, to even recognition of same-sex relations -- were immediately raised.

But it was not until the last 30 years that people began to actually act on the new ideals for beloved marriage. Social conservatives say that there has been a crisis in the last 30 years, and I agree with them, that marriage has been tremendously weakened as an institution. It's lost its former monopoly over organizing sexuality, male-female relations, political social and economic rights, and personal legitimacy. Where I disagree with them, is in how to evaluate that change and its consequences. I agree that it poses tremendous challenges to us, the breakdown of this monopoly of marriage, but I disagree with the idea that one could make marriage better by trying to shoehorn everyone back into the older forms of marriage. Because the main things that have weakened marriage as an institution are the same things that have strengthened marriage as a relationship. Because marriage is now more optional, because for the first time ever, men and women have equal rights in marriage and outside it. Because women have economic independence. This means that you can negotiate a marriage, and make it more flexible and individualized than ever before. So a marriage when it works is better for people, it's fairer, it's more satisfying, it's more loving and fulfilling than ever before in history.

But the same things that make it so are the things that allow people not to marry, or to leave a marriage that they find unsatisfying. My argument then is that you can't have one with out the other. And so we'd better learn to deal with the alternatives to marriage. Alternatives to marriage being singlehood, cohabitation, divorce and stepfamilies, all of these kinds of alternatives to marriage that have arisen.

So it's not about necessarily strengthening the union of marriage as it's been known for years, but adapting better to new forms of marriage?

I think of the revolution in marriage very much like the industrial revolution. It opened up some new opportunities for many people. It also created havoc in some peoples' lives. But the point is that it was not reversible, there was no way to go back to turn everyone into self-sufficient farmers. So we had to reform the factories, and we had to deal with the reality we faced. I would say that the revolution in marriage is the same. There is no way to force men and women to get married and stay married. There is no way to force women to make the kinds of accommodations they used to make, to enter a shotgun marriage or to stay in a marriage they find unsatisfying. So we have to learn with both the opportunities and the problems that raises for us.


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Monica Mehta is an associate editor at AlterNet.

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xenacat
Posted by: xenacat on Jul 21, 2005 5:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How wonderful that the sacred cow of marriage is honestly examined here! The phrase "magical thinking" certianly applies to the religious rights view of marriage as a panacea for all of society's ills. For those of us who have ever been trapped in a bad marriage with all of its destructive implications, this article is breath of fresh air.

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» RE: xenacat Posted by: agarillo
» RE: xenacat Posted by: xenacat
» Lots of married gays do swing Posted by: pricklybear
1950's attitudes have to go as well...
Posted by: nise52 on Jul 21, 2005 5:56 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When our daughter was 5 yrs old she came down with chicken pox. My husband and I agonized over how we were going to provide 2 weeks of at-home care for her while she was contagious and out of school. I signed up for immediate usage of 1 week's vacation and my company ok'd it due to the emergency situation. My husband asked for the same at his employer and his immediate boss made the comment "can't your wife take care of your child?". I was enraged and called that man (he was about 60 yrs old). I explained (quite loudly!) that things had changed in the world and since it required BOTH parents to work to raise a family, it also sometimes required BOTH parents to take time off when family emergencies arose. I also told him that this was NOT the 1950's, I was NOT June Cleaver, and if he wanted me to be a "stay-at-home" mom who could take care of my sick child without "interrupting" my husband's work schedule, he would have to pay my husband a more liveable wage!

The man stammered and apologized to me. 15 minutes after he hung up with me he walked over to my husband, told him about the call with me, and apologized to him as well. He also approved the time off request.

This was in 1988 but the attitudes still exist today. And parents are still stressed out because of it. Neither corporate America nor the Federal government have done much to alleviate such stress.

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» On the other hand, Iana_g.... Posted by: HeidiLockwood
Know thyself
Posted by: Angie on Jul 21, 2005 6:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This statement: "So I think that the difference in divorce rates is that if the woman is more egalitarian than the man, she's more likely to not get the changes she wants." is my new summary for why my marriage didn't work. That is, of course, not to say that I wanted to have my way all the time, but that I saw us as equals whereas he saw himself as vastly superior to me. Who was right and who was wrong isn’t as relevant as the fact that it is very hard to have a successful union in that scenario.

Men and women contemplating a marriage should understand whether they're more liberal or egalitarian, and the compatibility of their desires. That would make it easier to navigate the changes brought on by society.

By the way, it seemed the article started out pointing out that "traditional" isn't really traditional in this context. However, the word was used a lot to refer to ideas, terms, etc. But I understand its a quick and easy way to convey the ideas.

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» Equality Posted by: turil
» RE: quality Posted by: nazrafel
» RE: quality Posted by: turil
» RE: quality Posted by: Angie
» Men need a movement Posted by: Plankton
» Supposedly there already is Posted by: Kat144
» Yes, Plankton, there is. Posted by: HeidiLockwood
» RE: quality Posted by: ccbite
» RE: Know thyself Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Know thyself Posted by: Angie
No one knows how to make love last except those who do.
Posted by: Sojourner on Jul 21, 2005 8:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's a learn by doing task. In addition to 'falling' in love, a relationship turns out to be a whole lot of work -- and that's to be expected. It also turns out to be worth it, at least so it seems for the few I've known who have a good marriage. What was good in my own helped me to realize I was in a relationship that wouldn't allow me to grow up. I had to do that on my own. That was worth it, too.

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Traditional Marraige
Posted by: nakis on Jul 21, 2005 8:59 AM   
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I have to wonder about this love of traditional marraige. At some point when two people got together religion decided that it had to be formal and permenant. I'm not advocating making unions easy to get out of or not requiring serious commitments to get into or not having religious or formal ceremonies for it either.
What I'm whining about is that traditional church sanctioned vows have to include the till death do you part part. I know you want to enter such a mutually exclusive relationship as long term and hard work is required at times but so many people end up changing. Things change. People change. This is a fact of the Universe. Every is in motion. Everything changes. And sometimes things don't survive the changes.
I know so many people who gotten divorced for very good reasons. So why require two people to vow before the Creator to make their union till death. It is a vow before the Creator that no one, no one, can predict and prove that they will be able to fulfill.
Good gravy, the fundamentalists who believe in this to the nth degree love the stories in the Bible that are riddled with the human failing and need to change that destroys relationships.

I think the divorce rates in Mass and the Bible belt speak volumes.

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Some good information there.
Posted by: turil on Jul 21, 2005 8:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thanks for this article. It was enlightening. (I was afraid it was going to be another knee jerk anti marriage piece!)

My husband and I chose an unusual route to marriage that worked pretty well for us. We married twice. The first time was just for us - it wasn't "official" in any way - no officiant, no audience, no paperwork. The two of us had our own little ceremony with a handfasting (harder to do without other people, but not impossible!), and we considered ourselves married. A year later, on our anniversary, we had an official wedding with all the usual pomp and circumstance and paperwork. The first wedding gave us an opportunity to try out marriage without all the messy legal issues that might have come up if we had decided we didn't like it. I highly recommend it, and I completely agree with Coontz here that a more open mind about marriage and couplehood in general would be a boon to our society.

One question about the article. In the last paragraph of the interview, Coontz talks about social support systems for married couples. But she only mentions policies that have to do with children. Does Coontz equate marriage with only those couples who choose to have a kid? Or was that just an unintended outcome of editing?

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gillian-b
Posted by: Gillian-B on Jul 21, 2005 9:02 AM   
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Coontz makes some very insightful comments about marriage in America. But this is after she makes some broad statements that apply only to America, and some to Western culture as well.
Marriage is not mono-lithic. For instance, the Patels of India, regardless of which countries they reside in, still have family traditions of choosing a mate for their children, even while they have made some adaptations to 21st Century life.
While the US was extolling the virtues of monogamy and the nuclear family, other societies were encouraging the continuity of extended families, etc. Our way is not the only way ... and our definition of the ideal family is not the best or the only one.

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At Last, The Other Side
Posted by: thirdmg on Jul 21, 2005 9:37 AM   
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In the mythology of the radical right, marriage as we know it today is a sacred institution and tradition going back thousands of years. Coontz's corrections to this blatently false claim are long past due, but not unprecedented.

In his controversial 1994 book, Same-Sex Unions in Premodern Europe, the late John Boswell, who was the A. Whitney Griswold Professor of History at Yale University, argued similarly that our idea of marriage as "a permanent romantic commitment between two people, witnessed and recognized by the community" is a modern notion.

He explained further that that our modern ideas of marriage are not very similar to ancient ones, and that the meanings and purposes of marriage terms and customs varied widely from ancient to modern times. He pointed out, for example, that throughout most of the ancient Greek and Roman periods, our modern idea of a man and a woman falling in love, which would lead, in turn, to a consenting marriage, would have been an amusing oddity and ran contrary to the usually pragmatic purpose for marriage - property arrangements between consenting families.

The controversy raised by the book was Boswell's claim that publicly recognized same-sex unions - which he argued were marriages in the modern sense of the term - are nothing new in Western culture and history, or in Christian ritual and tradition. He presented evidence that both the Catholic and the Orthodox Churches performed same-sex union liturgies, and that they strongly resemble heterosexual marriage ceremonies and were practiced into modern times. The primary basis for his claim is Greek texts of the ceremonies. (See the English translations: Same-Sex Union Rites.) Historians do not deny the existence of the texts, or that they are same-sex union rites. The controversy was about whether they were marriage rites and whether their purpose was sexual in intent. On both counts, Boswell concluded that they were.

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Totalitarian effects of Marriage Under Fire
Posted by: pbr90king on Jul 21, 2005 9:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Genealogies of the past 400 years reveal that the blended family is nothing new; in fact, it appears to be far less prevalent today than in the years of 1600-1850 when serial marriages were common due to the Revolution, and the rigors of surviving in a new world, and the effects of poor maternal health in childbirth.

However, the new "wrinkle" in modern marriage is that it questions and tests the prevailing attitudes of totalitarian marriage where one or both partners are legitimized by dominance of one over the other. This results in both domestic violence and the illogical idea that people should be happy in dominant and submissive relationships that is, and was, the evolution of "traditional" marriage. That modern marriages can be more flexible in our attitudes toward them is purely a result of women's education, and the thoughtful outcome of males considering the effects of totalitarianism in a global world. Recognizing that women have been reduced to submission to a world of totalitarian males for centuries, the more enlightened among them recognize the value and advantage of releasing that "iron grip" to dignify women with a responsibility for upholding marital values without having to be chained to the home, and subject to male whims and fancies. Recognizing that women are entitled to whims and fancies, the same as males, is a first step in removing the invisible fences by which women are made captives of their mates and by society - as the evolution of the cave man method of wife acquisition. The advantages for males of helping to make women free is the desire of women to feel free to produce the advantages of their sex available to the world, and to their mates, without the guilt, shame, or requirement that removes the joy of having such a relationship. The downside to such a process is that men must begin to address the feelings of less control that are characteristic of non-totalitarian relationships, and learn to negotiate them as they do in other settings. To date, this movement is in its infancy but has great promise as men continue to mine this astronomically rich field of dignity and respect obtainable through thoughtful methods of acquiescence rather than through forceful methods of totalitarianism through traditional marriage. As with women working, flexibility is always the key to success because of its ability to address logistics and still maintain high levels of efficiency.

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marriage as a legal concept
Posted by: mmadden1@cox.net on Jul 21, 2005 11:03 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
With all the controversy concerning marriage, an important point is missed. That is, the law should have nothing to do with it. Law, like organisms, evolves and changes. The initial purposes of legal enactments of marriage was to protect the rights of the weak, typically children and women. These are no longer germane. There are other mechanisms available. Child support and visitation can be ordered in cases where parents have not been married. Property jointly held or acquired can be equitably divided. There would necessarily need to be modifications of existing law to deal with the many issues that come up, but the bottom line is that these can be enacted on principles of partnership or similar considerations. Marriage can be relegated to one's particular religious or philosophical ideals, where it should be.

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RedRobin
Posted by: RedRobin on Jul 21, 2005 11:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would first say that I absolutely agree with Coontz. I also agree with most, and probably all, of the comments posted up to this point.
I must add, however, that I think some people are missing the elephant in the room. Fundamentalists are not just upset about the changes that have occurred to their idealized traditional family. That is just rhetoric to hide their true objection. Fundamentalists believe that homosexuality is a sin and that to legalize gay marriage would be condoning a sin, which of course they will not do. They will offer the phrase, "Love the sinner, hate the sin." That is baloney. Most, but not all, fundamental Christians find gays and lesbians as repulsive as their "sin". They believe that gays and lesbians "choose" their "lifestyle", and thus, choose to be sinners. Research and science mean nothing to them, as the creationism movement demonstrates.
Having spent decades as a Catholic, then a member of a large conservative Christian religion, I know fundamentalism fairly well. I kept my liberal views hidden, and have lived a fairly traditional life. So people thought I was safe to talk to. Hah!! I can tell you that anti-gay attitudes, racism, and sexism are alive and well in fundamental Christianity. I will say, that many folks are working on the racism and sexism stuff, meaning they are trying to be more open and accepting, and less prejudiced. But as long as religious leaders use the Old Testament as a religious guide that works for today, anti-gay attitudes and behavior will persist.

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» RE: RedRobin Posted by: beata
» RE: edRobin Posted by: O9time
» RE: edRobin Posted by: RedRobin
» RE: Please read Posted by: rodrigo_c
» RE: Please read Posted by: Kat144
» RE: Where are your facts? Posted by: rodrigo_c
» RE: Where are your facts? Posted by: Kat144
» Kat144 Didn't you forget something? Posted by: HeidiLockwood
» RE: Please read Posted by: maxpayne
» RE:my neocons??? Posted by: rodrigo_c
» RE: Please read Posted by: jarandhel
» RE: Please read Posted by: paulaH
The Myth of Modern Feminism
Posted by: Iana_g on Jul 21, 2005 11:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When the right said, "Next, they'll go after marriage", they were correct. Is every tradition fair game? The radical left always makes the right right.
I fear that even the name, "America", will soon be a target. All the left has to do is find someone who is offended by it.
When did an entire political party decide to change everything?
Women are unhappier now than they ever have been. The left feels that it is because their policies haven't been implemented enough. The right feels that going back to original intent--to happier times--is the answer.
Is there one among you who might think this through and agree with me?
I don't see where the left is capable of taking care of me. I see the right as the party of life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. The left seems to be the party of death, socialized homogeneous lifestyle, and state ownership.
I'm done with the democrats--or whatever they are...

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» Why? Posted by: turil
» RE: Why? Posted by: Iana_g
» RE: Why? Posted by: valbevill
» Happiness is subjective. Posted by: turil
» RE: Why? Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: Why? Posted by: turil
» Therein lies the problem Posted by: Kat144
» People are confused. Posted by: turil
» RE: People are confused. Posted by: Kat144
» RE: Why? Posted by: paulaH
» RE: The Myth of Modern Feminism Posted by: churchofone
» RE: The Myth of Modern Feminism Posted by: HeidiLockwood
» RE: Which Myth? Posted by: AdamSelene40
» RE: Which Myth? Posted by: Iana_g
» RE: Which Myth? Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Which Myth? Posted by: AdamSelene40
» RE: The Myth of Modern Feminism Posted by: existential comrade
» RE: The Myth of Modern Feminism Posted by: kittynboi
» Funny, I'm VERY happy Posted by: Kat144
YYEEEEAAAAGGGGHHHHHHHH
Posted by: FlapJackSeven on Jul 21, 2005 11:57 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why didn't you write this 23 years ago?

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» Friendly Question: Why 23 years ago? Posted by: AdamSelene40
More than a fight against homosexuality
Posted by: hhartman on Jul 21, 2005 1:18 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree very much with your assessment on the right's attack on marriage, but I believe there is a bigger elephant in the room. I am not old enough to have been around during the fight for the Equal Rights Amendment, but we must not forget their fight against equal rights for all people including women. It has been the establishment's goal to keep "traditional" roles for men and women. This includes their fight against equal and equitable rights in the marriage, women's sexuality issues such as abortion, rape, sexuality in general. I believe this to be as much as a contributor as their fight against homosexuality.

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marriage licenses should expire
Posted by: Analog2 on Jul 21, 2005 2:48 PM   
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A modest proposal:

If after 5 years and if there are no children involved, a marriage license would expire if not renewed.

Increases or decreases in net worth of the partners will be split 50/50.

How about it?

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» Hey, analog2 - Posted by: HeidiLockwood
» Why no children? Posted by: Kat144
» RE: Why no children? Posted by: Analog2
» Carefull, Analog... Posted by: HeidiLockwood
» RE: Why no children? Posted by: Kat144
» RE: Why no children? Posted by: Analog2
I've read Coontz's book. It's excellent, but...
Posted by: CrystalD on Jul 21, 2005 4:34 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...the new "Harry Potter"is a sprightlier read.

Ha ha. "Marriage" is an excellent book, and well worth plowing through. Most of her points are well taken.

One thing that needs to be addressed, and that Coontz only refers to in passing: Our society is not the first to have no-fault divorce and gender equality. These conditions operated in most hunting-gathering and horticultural societies, where marriage was a means to build alliances, not control women. If a woman wanted to leave her husband, she usually could, and usually got to keep her children. But - and this is a BIG but - divorced women were not reduced to penury as they so often are in the modern United States. Extended family networks and redistribution of resources meant that no-one had to live in poverty.

Likewise, since polygamy was permitted in most societies, a divorced woman could easily find a new husband (and usually did pretty quickly). And shorter lifespans meant that not a lot of old people outlived their capacities and their income.

No-fault divorce has been a blessing for many people trapped in miserable marriages, as Coontz rightly points out. However, many divorced older women can kiss goodbye forever to any financial security or sexual fulfilment. Welcome to the modern nunnery, where you get poverty and chastity whether you like it or not.

The fact is that marriage cannot, these days, serve as a safety net or sinecure. Coontz addresses this point in "Marriage" - that basing a marriage on love necessarily makes it more fragile. So what can be done to ensure the welfare of people, especially women and children, if they cannot depend on marriage to keep 'em banked and bounced? What we sorely need is not some right-wing campaign to bring back marriage as God intended, but rather, some kind of provision for the vulnerable among us.

It also demands a rethink of our consumer culture where we are encouraged to treat spouses and family members like toys instead of people. Your wife is forty and not so hot anymore? Trade her in for a fresh young thing, no problem! Arranged marriages may have stunk for many people but they gave others - the not-so-pretty, the not-so-sparkling - a chance at love that grew over time.

Of course, rethinking our entire culture is a LOT more trouble than just trying to bring back "famblee values," I guess.

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Tell us Again for the First Time -- we keep forgetting
Posted by: AdamSelene40 on Jul 22, 2005 7:29 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Whenever the “Traditional Marriage” issue is discussed I feel like I’ve stepped into some kind of cultural Elysian Fields where there is no “past” and every day is the same as the last. Everything I thought I learned in 1960s Western Civilization undergraduate courses -- it never happened. The entire Women’s Studies curriculum – I must have dreamed it up. Everything written or done in the feminist movement from then to now – a delusion.

“Gay Marriage” debate is more or less new. Some Christian and Jewish communities began solemnizing same sex unions, roughly equivalent to their mixed sex marriages since the early 1970s. In 1996 the Clinton Administration passed the Defense of Marriage Act depriving such unions of at least 1300 rights, protections and entitlements enjoyed by mixed sex marriages. In 2000
the Supreme Court (Lawrence v. Texas) 2000 opened the door to the possibility of a Constitutional foundation for State sanctioned same-sex unions – providing the Religious Right with another Wedge Issue.

Does any of this sound familiar?

BUT: there’s been an unbroken debate about the role of Women in marriage, society and religion … the pros and cons of Romantic Love has been in unbroken debate since Margaret Fell and George Fox went their separate ways in the 1660s. But to read this last thread, It’s as if The Enlightenment, the Liberal Movement, the Code Napoleon, the Victorian Reform movement, The Sennica Falls Movement, Emma Goldman, Margaret Sanger and Havelock Ellis, Simone de Beauvoir, Millet, Freidan, Firestone, Dodson, et al had NOTHING whatever to say on the subject.

I had thought that the idea that Marriage is a cultural artifact that changes from time to time and place to place to meet each society’s needs was a “given” of any number of social sciences.

It’s the idea that American Civil Law draws it’s authority from The Church of Jesus Christ, and not from “the consent of the governed, ” …. that the Founding Fathers -- (now re-named The Founders, so as to create the impression that women too had been involved in drafting the Constitution ) – were infallible Prophets as well as legislators and innovators – that’s the New and Radical doctrine.

And it’s a scary pair of propositions, too!

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Social institutions
Posted by: rayo on Jul 22, 2005 9:54 AM   
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In thinking about the debate about family values, it is worth remembering that, like marriage, the concepts of gender, homosexuality and even biological sex are also socially defined and therefore subject to change over time. Homosexuality, as the sort of concept we use today, came into being only in the late nineteenth century, a fact that calls into question moral pronouncements based on the Bible's prohibitions of "homosexuality."

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Mr. and Mrs. LLC
Posted by: sbell on Jul 22, 2005 1:18 PM   
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Marriage and love are two completely different and unrelated concepts. You can be in love and not be married and be married and not be in love.
I have seen marriages where each partner has utter contempt for each other last for upwards of 40 years. I have seen marriages where people were desperately in love end in less than a year.
The true reality is that marriage is a partnership, a financial contract. Gay people aren't protesting for the right to be in love, they are protesting for the right to enter into a financial contract with the person of their choice.
When a married couple decides to divorce, they don't go to court over who decided to stray, or who emotionally checked out of the relationship; they go to court to fight over the "stuff" (money, kids, possessions.)
So I say give the true reality of what a marriage contract is. It has nothing to do with religion, love, sex, or friendship (although those things may help or hinder.) Marriage is a financial contract, and like all financial contracts it should not be entered into lightly.

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Posted by: Liquesce on Jul 24, 2005 9:49 AM   
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Perhaps it's not so in the book as well, but, in this interview what I do notice is that marriage, past or present, is very much defined in European/American/Christian terms and traditions, while being spoken of as though this perspective is applicable to marriages everywhere and in all times.

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» Last 'how many' years ? Posted by: AdamSelene40
Should Be Mandatory Reading
Posted by: AZcrone on Jul 24, 2005 10:01 AM   
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I agree: finally, a book that dispels the myths. It should be mandatory reading for women and men. Although women's roles have changed substantially, I still think many women have fantasies of marriage that mirror fairy tales rather than a sense of the reality of the physical and emotional work necessary (at least, I did when I was in my 20s). It's unfortunate that single people are treated, at times, as nonbeings. Being single and happy with an interesting life is not an anomaly!

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If the cons want to save marriages, then they should be the first to clamp down on divorces
Posted by: maxpayne on Jul 24, 2005 6:15 PM   
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Of course, most neo-conservative lunatics like Rush Limbaugh ended up in more divorces and neocons like Jerry Fartwell had sex with their mothers. Very interesting to see the same neoconservatives who complain about socialism actually engaging in socializing marriages just to hype their fake values debate. Sam Stanson nails this issue best.

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