Before 1900 the United States had no Pledege of Allegiance, no military draft and no income tax. All three were determined necessary by what was once The War Department. The words "Under God" were added to the original Belamy version by General Eisenhower. Our forefathers designed a system where we pledge ourselves to life, to liberty and to the pursuit of happiness. Though our flag has become tied to the pledge and media spins red,white and blue patriotism behind it, the fact is that serving the state is pure facism. Democratic government serves the governed, not the other way around!

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I have personally felt ashamed of the flag ever since the Vietnam war. Only in the brief weeks after 9/11 did I wear a flag pin to show my feeling of solidarity with my country, as we grieved and felt the shock of others' hatred.
But the war in Iraq has brought back those Vietnam feelings of shame. I fear we have lost the moral battle and have become a bully nation, insensitive to the aspirations of the poor in our own country, and around the world.

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Dear David,
I read your article and was struck by a number of points. The first is your use of the 10 Commandments. Admittedly I don't know whether you are a person who believes in G-d or not, but often times I see atheists attempting to use scripture against people of faith. In my opinion this is the height of synicism. I don't think our "reverance"( feeling of deep respect, love, awe and esteem) for the flag qualifies as "worship" (1st def., verb Trans. to adore or pay devine honors to as a diety). Granted some people do go overboard with the flag "thing", but as a civic symbol flags have always been very important. Even more so in the great melting pot that is the U.S.A.. As for the second commandment it's very self explanatory and doesn't normally apply to this case, due to the difference between reverance and worship. Many rabbinical scholors that I've studied point to our "obsessions" (Star Wars, weight loss, American Idol, socialism, etc.) as forms of idol worship because they detract from the place in our heart that should be reserved for G-d alone. We worship G-d and revere the flag and what it stands for. I don't buy the first Amendment argument either. Anyone who didn't oppose the McCain-Feingold act, which directly abridged freedom of speech has no right to scream about an anti flag burning amendment, which would prohibit an act that is far more anarchistic in nature. As you are well aware the founders weren't concerned with crucifixes in jars of urine when they enacted the 1st Amendment. They were talking about press, speech, assembly and petition to the govt. for redress of grievences. So I ask again, where were the 1st Amendment loving progressives during McCain-Feingold? I enjoyed your article but disagree with your conclusions. Let's give Old Glory a little bit of protection. JINGOIST

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I've never understood why god should be jealous. Isn't he or she pretty much in charge of everything?

Who could possibly be a threat?

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According to apodopa, in a previous post ridiculing same-sex marriage, he/she infers church and state are the same thing.

Posted by: apodopa on Jun 19, 2005 5:08 PM
... "We are evangelicals and that mean(s) we go out into the world and talk about issues, not only religion, but politics. Increasingly, at least for us, politics and religion are one and the smae(same?), always has been."

(brackets are mine, neilemac, someone has to teach apodopa grammar, how to spell ;-))

Well, I guess the flag is apodopa's and other American religious zealots' modern day "burning cross;" except they glorify it but don't really set it on fire.

Rupert Murdock's flagrant disinformation wielding FOX news network uses the flag as a backdrop while flaunting 24/7 biast rightwing rhetoric.

The "stars and stripes" hasn't only become a graven image for those rightwing bigoted THEOCORPORATIST bullying liars and rightwing religious zealots, it has become a symbol of contempt to the rest of our cultured civilized world.

"What have they done to my song, ma"... Melanie Safka (recorded by the "New Seekers" circa 1970) namaste

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That's right, I said it. Whatever glory was once attached to the flag is dead. Let them burn it, shred it, piss on it, shit on it, run it over, and whatever else anyone can think of to use it in protest, or even disgust.

It used to represent a great country, now, neither the country nor the flag are great. When displayed in other countries, whether on a t-shirt, a pin, or anything else, it's looked upon as a symbol of decadence, abuse, and just about every other derogatory thing we do as americans.

People want to save the flag from harm. Why? The same people who cry when the flag is "harmed", are a lot of the same people who don't give a shit about their fellow man.

We need to concentrate on ourselves as a people, then we can pick what we want to represent us accurately.

Fuck the flag, it's as meaningless as america.

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I must admit that I thoroughly enjoyed this article. I have been very nauseated by our sense of unchecked patriotism connected with our unchecked militarism. Today the flying of the flag seems to represent our support of the Iraq war. As much as I agree with this article, I have a question up for some discussion.

One of the distinctions that we might make is whether or not an object can be revered without being "worshipped" through ritual? Can we revere and admire the flag without combining it with ritual? As a pastor who has spent significant time studying the bible, what I have seen is that the text referring to graven images is in direct reference to the people of Israel setting up graven images as gods and then combining it with a sense of ritual worship. For example, when the Israelites created the golden calf while Moses was on Mt. Sinai getting the Ten Commandments, they not only admired it, they treated it as if it were a god and began dancing around it in ritualistic fashion.

We in the United States have our own rituals as this article points out. Whether it was the rather ridiculous near Nazi sign or even the simple placing our hands over our hearts, we have rituals that combine with our reverence. Does this, then, constitute as worship? I am sure that most people do not think of our flag literally as a god as some ancient cultures might have done so with objects. However, when we combine the ritualism around our flag with right wing religion, we most certainly come close to melding our reverence into worship. Too close, in fact, for me.
I especially get nervous that most churches, even churches I have served, have the Christian flag and the American flag in the sanctuary or on a poll out front. I find this abominable and near Crusade like. Any combination of the State with religion begins to create a dualistic world where violence is nearly inevitable as a result of creating an "us" and a "them." In fact, that is what nationalism itself does, which is what our flag represents. Perhaps one day we will be able to see the Lion sit down with the Lamb and we will practice war no more.

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I appreciated your article i was raised a Jehovah's Witness and got the bleep beaten outta me from first grade (1963) on through all my school years for not saluting the Flag.

All the abuse i endured was all for NOTHING!Because Jehovah's Witnesses are just a ripoff cult who won't salute the flag but have more pedophiles and psychopaths per-capita then anywhere except the prisons.

My life story as a f**ked Jehovah's Witness http://www.DannyHaszard.com

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When laws are passed to quell dissent of any kind, including flag burning, freedom takes on more meaning to those who understand that there is less of it around. To the ones who pass and supprt laws stifling dissent, they become the ones who think freedom is better served by limiting it to ways it suits them.
The american flag as it is used by the fascist republicans is nothing more than piece of evil looking cloth not unlike the Nazi flag. It will be interesting to see if the knee jerk fascists pass laws to also outlaw its "defacing" by advertisers. Doubt it.
But if the law is passed the first thing I am going to do is go downtown and burn a flag on main street to show my love and respect for MY freedom. If I did nothing I would be ashamed of myslef.

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The right wing are busily claiming ownership of the flag and of God and of patriotism. They are also trying to dissolve the separation of church and state. The notion of being un-American (for me, such an awful term. my wife (an American) had close friends offering her the choice of "leaving the country if you don't like it" when she opposed war in Iraq, on the basis she was being un-American. western style democracies should not deal in such terms, but America seems as intent on crushing dissent while pursuing its military aims as a China or a Russia. while there are many things wrong with my home country of Britain, i am happy that as a mature democracy and more politically tolerant populace that people were allowed to protest and dissent freely against war in Iraq, without being harassed out of their jobs or deserted by their friends. however, many average Americans appear to be such knuckleheads that they are unwilling to acknowledge that they can learn anything from the people of other nations, because America is BEST, at everything, period, and besides, the US saved all our European asses, we'd be speaking French, blah, blah) is becoming synonymous with NOT being Republican or a Bush supporter.

We've had to put up with numerous attempts to run us off the road here in Memphis and Nashville, for the crime of having Democrat bumper stickers. Engage in free speech at your own risk!

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As a Canadian I want to tell you I just don't get it. In fact I don't understand the jingoistic religiousity of it all. I love my country, but I would never say that our flag is anything other than a piece of cloth. If you want to burn, stomp or mutilate it, as our separatists have done in Quebec, feel free, you won't change what I think. In fact I'm going to go a little farther here and say that the majority of Americans are conformists. You talk about freedom a lot, but just don't try to exercise any of it. People will go around yelling Witch! Witch!

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I sent an email to my Congressman telling him to oppose the bill making defacing the flag a crime, not because of religious concerns but because it's the only tool left to us, as American citizens, to protest against our government without destroying public or private property. When we can no longer show discontent with public policy, the government no longer is representative but fascist at worst.

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I, like a majority of people who think on this subject, have disassociated the Government of the United States from the United States of America. The symbol of the Flag (note cap) is for my step-son who was recently returned, wounded, from the Middle East after an operation the government won't talk about. It is for my Uncle who should have died in Vietnam, and never accepted the fact that he alone of his unit survived. It stands for the generation of my Grandmother & Grandfather who lived through hell and reshaped the World with nothing more esoteric that basic machines, handtools, and grit.

I have belief in people like the aforementioned. I do not believe in Governments, National Parties, Multi-National Corporations or Religious zealotry. These, along with many left un-named destroy with little in the way positive advancement for Mankind. Sure, we have everything we want located conveniently at a nearby WallMart. And you can drink an ice cold Coke, as long as you ignore the murders that back that lovely Corporate neighbor. None of these "Institutions" is my Courty

You worry about the Flag. I worry about a Country.

My Flag flies daily in front of my house, She is just fine. Let any man or woman touch her and they will see what one man is willing to do to protect Her
My Country, on the other hand; How much more abuse will She survive at the hands of those who hate humanity?

Culture of Death or suicide pact? I no longer know.

v/r,
R.S. Covey

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"Before 1900 the United States had no Pledege of Allegiance, no military draft and no income tax."

Not true. There was a military draft during the Civil War as well as an income tax.

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I just wanted to offer up something.

Many servicemen and ex-servicemen deeply resent anyone showing disrespect for the flag. Strictly from the fact that they give so much for their country. Men die beneath that flag. Soldiers loose sanity, limbs, sacrifice greatly beneath that flag.
I personally respect and encourage discent towards any institution that causes harm to humanity. Out of respect for the millions of people who've worked, lived, suffered and died for the American dream of freedom and democracy I choose not to disrespect the flag in any way.
To me it's not idolotry. I do not worship it. I respect it for the people it represents.
In my mind it's about the people not those who use it to disrespect it.
Yes, I do believe that people idolize it. They use it, abuse it. They sell the flag. Another way to push rampant capitalism.
I truly believe that within the next century people will look back at this time and see the abuse of the American dream for what it is.

You can't get everyone to see the flag in the same way. People see symbols as they relate to their experience.

You may disagree and must respect that. I loathe what our domestic and foreign policies, rampant nationalism and capitalism, military industrial complex, fundamental religious beliefs, etc.. are doing in the name of God and America.
But deep down, and maybe its programming, I agree with protecting the flag from being disrespected. I think it is from my belief of what the flag represents. People. Sacrifice. Honor. Not the whores who sell themselves and their brothers for money, power and idolotry.
I do wholeheartedly respect the right to discent. But perhaps it can be done without disrespecting the flag.
We do live in America. We are about making our laws in respect to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Discounting the idiots who believe the crap shoved in their faces, I think we should respect the flag for the millions of courageous people who really made America what it is. We the People. Even if some of them don't deserve the respect.

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Gotta love it when Congress has their priorities straight. I'm sure the thousands of people dying in Iraq will rest peacefully knowing the flag is more important than their lives. Obviously, the 20% of our country that does not have health insurance is going to rest easier knowing that the flag is more important than their health. And to all the children that aren't recieving a real education, when they grow up they'll be able to appreciate that the flag was more important than their future. If you took a poll of this country, I'm sure the overwhelming majority would put the protection of a piece of cloth before any of these issues.

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David,
Thank you for an interesting argument about flag worship. If Jingoist thinks it is synicism [sic] to use scripture against those who weild its power, then I have to point out that we do so in the name of consistency. The same concern for consistency is what led Jingoist to criticise First Amendment advocates for not opposing the McCain-Feingold Act but now opposing the state's protections of flag sanctity. ( But hypocritsy
has always been s stumbling block for the religious amongst us. )

It seems to me that the issue is not where or whether reverence for the flag turns into "idolatry" or "blasphemy" as that is a purely religious matter. It is not because flag worship is 'blasphemy' that we ought be allowed to desecrate it. If Americans did not have the freedom to desecrate a national symbol, then nor would they be free to revere it. Their reverence would be compulsory. Freedom means having a genuine choice between two options, rather than being compelled by the thought police to worship a symbolic totem or to revile a social taboo.

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I stopped saying the Pledge of Allegiance after I caught myself about to say "amen" at the end of it. As for changing the national anthem to "America the Beautiful," absolutely! We need an anthem that includes the lines "America, America! God mend thine every flaw/And crown thy good/With brotherhood/Thy liberty with law!" (How soon will there be a movement to delete that stanza?)

Incidentally, in Baltimore it's illegal to sing "The Star Spangled Banner" in an inappropriate manner, which strictly speaking includes starting it and not singing all the stanzas.

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Once they ban flag-burning, people won't stop protesting:

1) People will burn pictures of the President
1a) The government will ban burning pictures of politicians

2) People will burn drawings of the President
2a) The government will ban burning drawings os politicians

3) People will burn pieces of paper with the word, "President" on it
3a) The government, in an effort to stay one-step ahead of wily protestors, will ban burning anything.

As long as we keep voting for these numb-nut congressional representatives, we're in for a rough ride. Good thing the Republicans are there to save us from ourselves.

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This (potential) amendment is, of course, utter garbage. However, should it pass and defacing of the flag be declared criminal, I fully intend to use it against all the post-911 "patriots" who drive around with shredded, battered flags flying from their car antennas. Hell, they're probably the ones most in support of this measure. Might as well beat 'em with their own stick.

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i wasn't born in this country but i still understand what the flag of any country stands for. this amendment does more to curb freedom of speech than to protect the flag. with an illegal war(s) going on, drug and arms trafficking at an all-time high, our economy is about to burst, hospitals and VA centers closing everyday, everything's getting expensive while jobs are getting outsourced, you'd think we have more important things to worry about? BTW, if we're going to "protect" the flag, maybe we should start by telling our commander-in-chief (a stupid brittish term) about writting on it.
http://dubyaspeak.com/incidents.shtml

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This piece, it brought it home to me. All my life, as a non christian, growing up in the midwest, saying the pledge like everyone else.

I have to face it, my flag is meaningless. The ideals it inspired in some have been far outweighed by the evil done by others, in "it's" name. It's been a reluctance, for me, to feel this or admit it to myself. To realize that, for most of the rest of the world? Our flad is something to fear. It means military power. It means they'll do anything to you they can get away with, and passively and actively suppoprt the worst of war ciminals in other nations.

Have to face it. What our flag means, it's just like the confederate flag, now. It might have been a pride to some, pride for the south, but for so many others, it's a symbol of oppression and hate. One might not like to view one's flag that way, but, if one's flag inspires that feeling in *others*, is it really anything to be proud of? If those feelings are not only perfectly justified, due to past actions and attitudes upheld by those lovers of that flag, but also, that those feelngs are shared by others that *weren't* hurt, but still feel shame? Who want's a flag like that?

It's not just what our flag means to us. It's what our flag means to others, how we have represented our flag. For all that, it's nothing to be proud of. What good is it to tout the ideals of freedom and democracy if all you do is show the world what a lovely job you do of undermining those ideals? It does nothing but harm to those ideals. Worse than never addressing it at all; perverting past all recognition. What a subversion. Nothing to be proud of there.

Since Bush has been president, nothing has improved in the world, in terms of freedoms, that I know of. The only things that have improved are the profits of big businesses, and that's the only thing I can think of that's better now than it was before. Business profits.

They're the ones that ought to pledge to the flag. They friggin own it.

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The flag is a living thing, it is fluid. It lives just like the bible, because we the living are creating its current meaning every day with every action.

The flag is like a prayer upon the wind and when we are all tapped in to a beautiful prayer the world will be a beautiful place.

The flagpole Eagle, Now there is the symbol we should be talking about.

I love the eagle, as long as it represents the eternal vigilence and strength of the sovereign citizen. As long as it represents the power of the bond between natural man and the Gods, or even, if you will, God! As long as it does not represent the Imperial power of the State.

I know of nothing closer to the Godhead than the unity of man for the general welfare. It is time that the Imperial power of the State be challenged by citizens exercising their eagle eyed vigilence and acting in protecting the general welfare of mankind and indeed, of all life from enemies both inside and outside the country.

There are other alternatives to the Imperial Roman Eagle symbolism. The Dove Descending is a nice one.


Other tradditional flagpole finial symbols to discuss are the spear point and the "cannon ball".. Why not a sheaf of wheat or the blue green planet?



Save me from the jingoist but let's make this country something that we can be proud of. Starting with a strong focus on electoral reform.


The flag as a symbol is a power tool, and like any other tool in the box it can be used positively, creatively and for good. One need not fear its power, one must learn to use it. No one person or party "owns" it. By the way, when it is burned it returns to the dust from which it is renewed. The Dragon is dead. Long live the Dragon.

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Instead of our current pledge of allegience, I propose that we use the pledge from the constitution (slightly modified):

"I swear that I will, to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States."

That's where my allegience lies.

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Flags are symbols, no more, no less and what's happened to our handling of it is asbusrd: A national amendment? Mein Gott, why? To many the American flag has a different meaning; for some it represents pride while others argue people have died in the name of the flag.
When the national anthem is played I can't look at the flag. But if anyone speaks out about it we're labeled outcasts or called unpatriotic. Therefore the flag is used to divide us as any other issue out today.

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This flag worshipping has gone overboard. Why is a amendment necessary? I can't understand it. Mein Gott, it's only a piece of cloth (a symbol, nonetheless) that its interpretation is subject to debate.
People have (needlessly) died because of our flag. But then some say it's a source of pride. If anyone dares to criticize the flag they're called unpatriotic or worse. The U.S.A. is one of the few nations that lets flag worshipping go to its head.
When the anthem is played I can't look at the flag because to me it represents a crass, jingoistic, cultural imperialism. But we've gone too far with a proposed amendment. It defies logic.

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The Stars & Stripes is the flag of the United States ruling class—call them corporate elite if you like. People around the world hate the U.S. flag because it represents imperialism and oppression.

If you never burned the Stars & Stripes I suggest that you do. I’ve burned a few and it felt just wonderful. Just so you know I ain’t no “furiner,” I was born in the USA.

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A term used often by our Congresspeople to define using the American flag to protest unpopular actions by our government.

The ONLY object that one can "desecrate" is a RELIGIOUS object ergo, our gentle congress people are confusing the "flag" with a "holy" object.

THEY ARE WRONG

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Back in the 60's, when I was an hourly worker at the RCA plant, the company passed out a little American flag decal to all the employees. When he got his decal, one of my friends tore it up, threw it on the floor and spit on it. After the shift, a couple of guys met up with my friend in the parking lot and delivered a short, sharp lecture on the drawbacks of descecrating the flag. Now, fourty years later I find myself a liberal thinker and a man of conscience. I don't think God needs the backing of the United States government in order to do His job. As a matter of fact, it is an insult to the power and purpose of God to believe that men must indeed pass laws in to perpetuate His rule. And so it is with the American flag. If we as a nation have so little faith in this flag that we must force our citizens by law to respect it, then we have truly lost our way. And I would rather smile at the sometimes rough, unpolished virtue revealed fourty years ago in that parking lot than cringe at the specter of honor enforced by law.

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One wonders about Americans, having a "great" debate about a "symbolic" painted cloths, to burn or not to burn.
While oh so quite on real issues.
Setting Him Straight?
Zach is a gay teen whose parents forced him to attend "religious camp" to "make him straight." But these camps are better at psychologically hurting teens than at changing their sexuality.
Defacing a flag or young people, cloths vs. people mmm very difficult choice.

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The comments section is one of the best and most thoughtful I have seen in a long time. Almost everyone contributed something meaningful and thought-provoking.
I was especially struck by the reference to the Confederate flag. It ties together much of what many of us seem to be saying: There is deep commitment to what the flag represented; but it's place in the world order of things has been tainted. I have always felt pride in our nation and our flag until recently. I would like to feel the same way again. But it is more important for our flag and country to do some serious thinking about our Constitution and what America should stand for.
Adding a Constitutional Amendment about the flag is only a little more intelligent than one that would preserve the "sanctity of marriage." That's why it's HARD to AMEND the Constitution.

This begins to smell like another diversionary tactic by the administration in power to keep our attention away from their shenannigans.

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From the article:
[[Just eight months ago, Lincoln, Nebraska police arrested a 64-year-old Vietnam War veteran who flew the American flag upside down to protest the war in Iraq. He was arrested for violating a 1977 Nebraska law prohibiting the "mutilation of a flag," which it defines this way. "A person commits the offense of mutilating a flag if such person intentionally casts contempt or ridicule upon a flag..." The penalty is three months in jail. Of course, in many societies, the punishment for ridiculing God is far greater.]]

Regarding the Nebraska law about "mutilation of the flag." The Vietnam Vet was NOT mutilating OR ridiculing the flag in any way. The flag rules as I remember them state that the flag is not to be flown upside down EXCEPT as a SYMBOL OF DISTRESS. I would heartily agree with that Vet: we are certainly in distress!

SUGGESTION: For everyone who feels distress for the United States of America.

Maybe on JULY 4th, 2005, it would be a good idea for EVERYONE to fly their flag upside down!

Especially in Nebraska!
What are they going to do? Arrest everyone?

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while the new short film, "a catastrophic success," is a fictional account, it is emblematic of the shift happening more and more in this country. check out:

www.acatastrophicsuccess.com

is defense of the flag worth more than human life and dignity? i think that the point made about really following the 2nd commandment is fascinating. thank you for your interesting and timely commentary...

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Thank you for writing that, right on.

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The fact that the flag is treated not as a symbol but as the very object of veneration in the eyes of Monkey Prez & Co. reflects how backwards their world view is. It's a piece of material that should stand for something. Increasingly though, it's offensive to the rest of the world and more and more Americans. Yet the fact that the Right misses that and the fact that the flag could be a positive image throughout the world is completely missed while they go about their ridiculous work of protecting some cloth that happens to have 50 stripes and 13 stars on it. As a teacher, I don't make my kids stand up during the Pledge of Allegiance. If they wanna sit down, they're quite entitled to. Most kids stand up anyway. And also, while I'm around the topic of patriotism, don't ya think that the flag and patriotism in general would be more valued if they were not invoked quite so often? Personally, sometimes you don't feel like singing a national anthem or saying the Pledge. So when you're forced to do it, it sort of diminishes the power of what should be a proud moment. I'm not suggesting jingo-ism or mindless rah-rah patriotism, and obviously it's hard to be proud of the direction the country is headed at the moment, but one can still appreciate the ideals the country represents and holds as potential anyway.

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It is dangerous to use people's belief in God to achieve some other goal, when that belief is the source of so many problems. This is exactly parallel to using cigarette smoking to get people angry about their freedom being abridged.

The point that the author fails to make is that the belief in God is at least as unhealthy as the belief that countries are a good thing. Either one makes a person uneducable.

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I would like to see a Confederate Flag Buring Day
I already use Confederate Flag Toilet Paper
Show your patriotism Celebrate the VICTORY of the Civil War

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I'll be leaving all of you liberals to have your little party here so you can all feel so smart and good about yourself. You have all been served. Tchau

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What I want to know is can I eat a cake decorated like an American flag? Doesn't that turn it into shit?

How about those tiny paper flags on the end of toothpicks? Do I have to give them a proper burial, or can I still toss them in the trash?

What if I wrote "American Flag" in red white and blue letters? Would that count? If I crossed out the words in blood would that be desecration?

If I take a photograph of the flag then decide I don't want it, can I put it in the burn pile? And what about an old worn out T-shirt that has an American Flag on it? Shall I keep it forever or send it to my idiot congressman to dipose of?

Get real people. It is impossible to protect a symbol because one can always find some other symbol to function as a stand-in for the last one.

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What's worse is that, pre-WW2, instead of holding our right hand over our heart, we had the little school kids doing the Roman (i.e., Nazi) salute to the American Flag. Don't believe me? Google the Roman Salute/ American Flag/ Pledge of Allegiance and check out the kids doing a Sieg Heil! to the stars and stripes.

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Interesting article and - unfortunately - more relevant to Australia than many of you would think.

Australia's Prime Minister John Howard has been described as an ar#$ lick%^ as far as his fawning to the US is concerned. He seems to be obsessed by having big and powerful friends to protect Australia should we ever face an external threat. Of course the US will follow its own interestes so it is by no means certain what if any help might again come this way should we need it.

No criticism intended by that. And I have no problem in admiring the USA and all it -used - to stand for. In fact as a post WWII refugee from Europe I would have been an American and not an Australian now if your visa people had been 3 months faster back then. And I still think the words of the Declaration of Independence are some of the most beautiful crafted in the English language. Mind you I know Jefferson was a slave owner and he was probably talking about freedom etc for white male property owners.

Point is our PM is extremely conservative and so we now have federal financial grants to education in the various states and terroritories conditional on all schools having a flag pole and running the flag regularly. So we are taking steps in your direction.

We Australians have been rather less attached to the formal and open patriotism that you Americans seem to favour, but I believe we are no less patriotic for all that. In the end it is deeds that count.

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The last thing we need is to tamper with the Constitution attempting to resolve some specific socal or political agenda that has grabbed the popular attention of the moment. The last time that happened we ended up with Prohibition.

Interesting that this proposal reared its head once again at the very moment that the Downing Street memos started making headlines in the mainstream news. Smokescreen or not?

This amendment was first proposed as a reaction to a Supreme Court decision that ruled that destruction of a flag as a gesture of protest was a form of expression protected by the First Amendment.

What is being proposed is to amend the Constitution for the sole purpose of removing a legal right previously enumerated in the original Bill of Rights.

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My goodness, Jingoist. Such a stream of underlying hatred and disrespect. One might think you are mad at someone or something; bullying others with your verbal assaults. I see that you gave the definition of worship. Well how you used it is as a noun yet you provide the verb tense definition. My goodness, did you miss the meaning of the noun? It is, according to Answers.com 1a definition, The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object. With the flag receiving your reverence as a sacred object that should receive constitutional protections, perhaps it is not the height of cynicism, but rather the blatant reality of your display (and others) and your hatred and disrespect for yourself and others that is cynical. Seeing as how the meaning of the noun "worship" in fact uses reverent in its definition and uses sacred object which is what the amendment would codify, this renders your second commandment reference fallable and wholly wrong.

You may not buy the first amendment argument, that is your opinion which you can freely express because of the first amendment, however burning the flag very much sends a message to anyone paying attention. The last time that I checked a message is a form of speech and thus covered by the first amendment right to freedom of speech. I suppose that you subscribe to a narrow view of freedom of speech as to why you do not buy the first amendment right argument. However, the 10th amendment: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people to me sounds like the 1st amendment does in fact cover freedom of speech because the constitution does not ban it nor do the states collectively. Further the 9th amendment: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people makes it clear to me that amendments are not meant to restrict the rights of the people as provided by the constitution. In fact I think that a constitutional case could be made that if such an amendment to the constitution were made, that it could be overturned just as prohibition was overturned because it is the deliberate restriction of the rights of the people.

See next comment part 2

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I know very little about the Mccain-Feingold bill other than it sought to limit financial resources to candidates for office. Whether or not I was old enough to know about the bill or not, I would have opposed it because anytime you get a bunch of affluent folks together to discuss money, especially the restriction of it, it can only lead to problems such as leaving loop holes the size of an 18-wheeler to drive through for campaigns. Now if it had simply funnelled all of the money into one large account that was equally shared by all candidates and provided for equal and free air time for each candidate on public broadcast networks such as nbc, abc, cbs, and pbs and the local broadcast networks unique to each locality then perhaps I might have been in favor of it, but not being old enough to even vote when it passed, I had no say in it.

Old Glory has just as much protection as any other item. The only reason anyone cares is because of the reverence and the worship that it receives. I am not going to give it more protection than any other graven image receives by way of the constitution. The flag represents many ideas to many people and that is well within their rights including yours, just don't shove your religious beliefs down my throat or anyone elses throat.

With that said, I just looked up the meaning of jingoism to see what it is that you peddle yourself as being since you have chosen to hide your identity behind it, just like a coward and cherry-picking bully that you are. Here we go...

Jingoism: Extreme nationalism characterized especially by a belligerent foreign policy; chauvinistic patriotism. Yep that sums you up pretty well by my estimation.

Oh I like this political definiton: Extreme and emotional nationalism, or chauvinism, often characterized by an aggressive foreign policy, accompanied by an eagerness to wage war.Yep that fits you like coward and cherry-picking bully that you are.

Oh how interesting, it is also a 'euphemism for "by Jesus,"'

Hope that sets you straight.

By the way Jesus is a Liberal. Feed the hungary, care for the sick, help the poor, pray for peace.

Lastly, do unto others as they would have you do unto them -- my version of the LOVE commandment.

Hey I'm blunt. It is my nature.

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I like the idea of pledging to life, liberty & the pursuit of happiness. Much better than hating freedom-haters, in my book.

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Everyone has an idea about what the flag is.
If you decide to worship it, that's fine by me, but I would prefer doing my own thing. That doesn't include defacing the flag, shredding it to bits of burning it. It also doesn't include praying to the flagpole or a bit of printed cloth either. I find that rather mechanical and non-spiritual.

So you go ahead and do what you want with your flag, but keep me out of it. You can't generalize feelings into uniformity with a law.

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A better amendment would be one which required that all US citizens memorize the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. Then they would better understand what the flag represents. It would also enable US citizens to determine when governement officials have violated their rights or violated the law. Why not use these documents for teaching reading and vocabulary in second or third grade?

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Kudos to the author for pointing out the hypocrisy of the uber-patriotic and the religious (which seem to have a high positive correlation with each other). When I read of politicians trying to pass laws that ban desecration of the flag, I find myself caught between fear and outright laughter. On one hand, I am afraid because I tend to believe in the Socrates adage that politically naive people are destined to be led by evil men. Therfore, by not standing up to innane or unjust laws we are in effect giving permission to pass future like-minded laws. On the other hand, I find myself laughing at the desperate logic behind the law. I feel like we're in the Land of Oz and Todo is tugging at the curtain. Are the politicians really this desperate? Regardless of what you feel about the flag, will such a law result in an increase in measured respect for the flag? Just how do they intend to enforce this law when they can't even keep track of 8 billion Iraq war dollars? The best thing we can do is keep track of these knee-jerk politicians that vote for this time-wasting crap, write them and make 'em pay for it in the polls. Start your list people!

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-Transforming flag desecration from an act of protestation into one of criminality seems harmless enough, since those who commit this act tend to be imbued with political outlooks contrary to those of mainstream America. Woven into its fabric are memories commonly held such as reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in grade school. Later, elements that are more complex reinforce that early innocence and might embrace incidents like the loss of a comrade in war. An assault upon the flag is seen by some as an assault leveled against an amalgam of memories, innocent ideals, and loyalties, an amalgam that is unifying and often nationalistic in tone.
-When asked what the flag means to them, most Americans will immediately answer, “Freedom.” But since our history includes a long episode of slavery and the repression of various social and ethnic groups, does not the flag also connote these less palatable traces of national character? Indeed, it can be argued that for some Americans, the flag represents little more than social and economic marginalization.
-Once a flag becomes old and worn or stained, its proper disposal requires burning. How can the courts distinguish between these ceremonies and those initiated by citizens who view the country, and therefore the flag, as morally worn or stained, its courage turned cowardly, its purity violated, and its justice compromised? A nation must pay the price if it is to honor the concept of free expression.
-Flags are manufactured articles. They enter the stream of distribution not unlike other of capitalism’s goods and are then sold to consumers. Can rights of ownership be displaced by a prohibition against the destruction of a manufactured article by its legal owner? To claim that this nation owns the symbolic portion of a flag I have purchased for $24.88 at Wal-Mart flies in the face of logic. Although flag burning might lie at the fringes of individual liberty, its impact as a political statement will only be enhanced by its prohibition. A flag worth its salt as a national symbol should be made of better stuff and need not fear protest in any form, even if that means its occasional immolation.
-On most national holidays, I fly two flags: the national symbol and the Marine Corps globe and anchor. I love both symbols for different reasons, but they remain just that: symbols of my country and symbols of part of my personal history.

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Here's a concept.

Everyone who feels the flag isn't what it used to be, and also feel that it represents an america none of us agree with, hold flag burning parties.
Maybe, and I know this may be a stretch, if enough americans are seen burning "old glory" on the day we're supposed to be celebrating freedom, it may wake some people up.
IF enough people do it, and alert their local medias, I think it would make the most powerful statement for freedom, in a very long time.
Even if you're by yourself, call your newspaper and tell them you're burning the flag on the 4th in protest of the government, and our illusion of freedom.

Just a concept, but, a most powerful one, if carried out.

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It seems utterly extraordinary that this ammendment is being proposed. Or is it? With the current administration, more hostile to democracy than any other administration in U.S. history, and its endorsement of an ammendment to specifically define marriage as "between a man and a woman," and Bush's vow to ban all stem cell research along with attacks on women's right to control their own reproduction due to the fanatical desire to see all fertilized ova come to term at any cost (all of that high-faluting "reverence of life" rhetoric notwithstanding...I'm surprised no constitutional ammendment forbidding any birth to be terminated under any circumstances or any organic material defined as "embryonic" to be tampered with for medical purposes under any circumstances has yet to be proposed by this brazen and shamelessly fundamentalist Bush regime)...well, I guess we shouldn't be surprised at yet another measure by this preposterous administration based on what amounts to religion or something akin to religious worship being put before democracy and free speech. Shamed and outraged, yes. But surprised...no.
Though the flag, in and of itself, is not a religious symbol, the religiosity in which it's being protected against "defacement" by a proposed law goes against everything democracy stands for, and is indicative of religious worship. I'm not saying that all right-wing Christians support such a measure, but go into any Christian store catering to these people, and you will see U.S. flags and pro-American books with the flag on the front cover for sale. Evangelicals clearly see their religion and "Americanism" to be intertwined.
This proposal is also designed to legally endorse American vanity, and to criminalize anyone who believes that America should stand for democracy instead of "greatness."

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One way to demostrate that Merica is a free country is to burn a flag and a cross at the same time. Of course, some will call you a very confused right-wing conservative...

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After a devestating set of events, a country's government helped its people to be inspired and unified by its Christian traditions and beliefs.
Reforms brought about restrictions in liberty, but this was a small price to pay for security. Their "way of life" was threatened, consequently the enemies were clearly identified and eventually eliminated. "God is with us" on belt buckles of Army uniforms.
Overabundance of national flag (desecration verboten) and patriotic symbols encouraging and supporting the struggling country's efforts to be what it once was.
Pressure on all to unite, no toleration for dissent. Invasion of other countries necessary for national security.

Sieg Heil! (Holy Victory!)

Don't want to jump on the bandwagon of making Nazi comparisons...oops I guess I did! I've been living in Germany for some time now and observed how the people make enormous effort to avoid repeating history - amazingly resulting in attitudes and laws reflecting the ideas of the American Constitution.

Never wanted to burn the flag, but was sure damn proud to have the right to do it.

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The House of Representatives has passed yet another Constitutional Amendment banning flag-burning.

They have nothing better to do than obsess on an issue like flag-burning. Most of them chickenhawks. Most of them heedless to the current and pressing need to provide our soldiers with better protection in Iraq. Most of them supporters of the Bush welfare programs for the rich and for tax-breaks to corporations. Most of them sinking this country into the largest deficit in our history. Most of them careless about our environment and the future health of our children.

But, by God, this witless majority has helped to protect America by fighting for a Constitutional Amendment banning flag-burning. These are the heroic members of Congress defending America.

Imagine that. Millions of pieces of red, white and blue cloth that are one of many symbols of this country threatened by waves of crazed liberals lighting matches. But have no fear, once this new Constitutional Amendment is in place, wingnut liberals can start burning copies of the Constitution itself in protest. And when they pass a Constitutional Amendment banning burning copies of the Constitution, enraged liberals can start burning copies of the Declaration of Independence in protest. And when they enact a Constitutional Amendment banning burning copies of the Declaration of Independence, traitorous liberals can start burning copies of the Republican platform. And the heroic members of Congress can fight on with more Amendments to the Constitution, defending life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

My father was a company commander (E Company, 66th Infantry, 71st Division) in France, Germany and Austria in WWII. The 71st, by the way, was the division that ended up liberating more concentration camps than any other. To make a long and very interesting story short, when my dad heard about the first flag burning amendment effort years ago, his comment to me was "My men died so that people in this country could burn the flag in protest."

As posted on http://orwellsgrave.blogspot com

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In 1900 the US hit the wall on the true meaning of the American flag. Many Americans don't realize the Supreme Court in the era of President McKinley made an important ruling on what the Stars and Stripes does or doesn't stand for. The ruling was in regards to the quandry of whether or not Constitutional Rights were to be granted to the people of the Philippines, who were living under the Stars and Stripes as the result of the outcome of the Spanish American War. The Court rulled that Constitutional rights of citizenship do not necessarily follow the American flag, this ruling put the Filipinos into a second class "American National" status, under which Puerto Ricans, Guamanians, American Samoans, and the citizens living in numerous other US possessions languish today. Suffice to say, Supreme Court of 1900 divorced Old Glory from the US Constitution and reduced its value to that of a mere territorial marker. Burn it if you wish, it truly represents nothing.

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This has all been great, especailly the comments. IMHOP I think that the Democrats in the Senate are likely to cave in and the proposed ammendment will pass and then will begin a long journey to the various states for ratification. Do not despair, rather look at this as a great opportunity to harrass the right wing kooks (religious and otherwise) by focusing on the various state legislatures that will have to ratify it. Expose the hypocracy, expose the chicken hawks, demand that they also pass legislation to enforce it once it passes by requiring the local police and state hi-way patrolmen to cite and fine those who desecrate our sacred symbol of national unity by using it for crass commercail purposes (remember those cheesy car dealers, apartments stores, big box stores, wall mart etc.) and also fine and otherwise punish those who defame our symmbol of unity by using the flag for partisan political organizations! What fun!!!

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I have heard many a people complain about flag burning. They have this "thing" about disrespect to the flag as their main grievance.

I point out that when one enlists or re-enlists in the military, one never is asked to defend, protect, or honor the flag. It's the Constitution, stupid!

The flag is nothing but a symbol. It's the Constitution that holds the power of the Nation and that's what the military swears to uphold...not the flag.

There is no way one can compare the flag and Constitution. The flag is a symbol, but the Constitution is a series of words arranged is such a manner that creates an Government.

regards

.

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This is what I've felt for a long time....pledging allegiance to the flag, people insisting they must fly the flag to care about America, people freaking out about how the flag is treated.

All of these people, more worried about a piece of cloth than about the people it represents.

You're not supposed to leave a flag unilluminated at night or out in foul weather, but it doesn't matter if people walk dangerous streets at night without proper lighting or live in cardboard boxes out in the elements.

You have to retire your flag with dignity, but Terri Schiavo was starved to death, along with all of the other people who meet sad, undignified, or violent ends.

You have to be careful about how you fly your flag--how its placement is in respect to other flags, how high on the pole it's flying--in other words,people worry more about who their flag is hanging out with than about who their kids are hanging out with.


It's a piece of cloth, people. "America" is an idea. Meanwhile all around are the people who made up this idea of America and nobody gives a shit about them.

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I'm a bit late to the discussion, but I felt compelled to address someone's line in a previous post.

He/she wrote: "I'm sure the thousands of people dying in Iraq will rest peacefully knowing the flag is more important than their lives."

Hm, apparently you're not aware of William Carney's story? The first black American to be awarded the Medal of Honor... willing to die before letting the flag touch the ground. What a bunch of fucking idiots you all are, really... all of you... I don't care if you're liberal, conservative, whatever... the flag should be proudly waved by all Americans.

If Carney was willing to die for it in a time when racism and bigotry were rampant against our black citizens, why aren't any of you willing to AT LEAST wave it? Morons.

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