COMMENTS: 186
The Blasphemy of Flag Worship
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In three previous votes, the Senate could not muster the two-thirds majority needed to send the bill to the states for ratification. In 2000, the last time the Senate took up the matter, 63 voted for the amendment, four short of a two-thirds majority. Since then Republicans have picked up five Senate seats. That is why USA Today describes the upcoming vote, scheduled sometime after July 4, as a "cliffhanger."
If Congress passes the amendment, will the states ratify it? Time will tell. But we should recall that every state legislature has passed resolutions urging Congress to send it such an amendment.
We can expect to hear a lot of First Amendment-loving progressives condemn this Congressional initiative as inappropriate and dangerous. I would hope that the Christian right would join the opposition. Not out of a love for the First Amendment, but because of their devotion to the Ten Commandments.
Devout Christians firmly believe that the Ten Commandments should be etched in stone in our courthouses and emblazoned on the walls of every classroom. The message of the Second Commandment is clear. "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image... Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God..."
Can anyone deny that the American flag has achieved the status of a graven image?
The contention that flag worship is blasphemy was a key element before the Supreme Court in 1940. In that case it upheld the right of a Pennsylvania school district to expel two students who refused to recite the Pledge of Allegiance. The two teenagers were members of the Jehovah's Witness denomination. Their church believed that pledging allegiance to the flag violated the Biblical admonition (Exodus 20) against worshipping or bowing down to any graven image of God. The court decided that the need for national security and national unity allowed Congress to force individuals to violate the Ten Commandments.
In 1943, the Supreme Court reversed its 1940 decision. That reversal probably had less to do with religion than with the Court's realization that, at the height of a war against totalitarian regimes, a central feature of which was a slavish devotion to national symbols, compelling us to worship the flag was inapt. (As a side note, that same year the Flag Code itself was changed. No longer were students required to salute the flag with one arm extended forward. The similarity to the Nazi salute was too embarrassing. From that time onwards, we were told to put our hands over our hearts.)
The evidence that we literally worship the flag is overwhelming. Unique among all nations, we have a Flag Day, a Flag code etiquette, a national anthem dedicated to the flag and a verbal salute to the flag. Twenty-seven states require school children to salute the flag daily.
Some might argue that we are simply saluting a symbol, that we are actually pledging allegiance to our country. But the words tell a different story. "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of American, and to the republic for which it stands." The insertion of the word "and" makes clear that the flag and the republic are two different entities. We are pledging allegiance to the flag itself.
If further evidence is needed, consider these words from the Congressionally enacted U.S. Flag code (Title 36 USC 10, PL 344). "The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing."
Just eight months ago, Lincoln, Nebraska police arrested a 64-year-old Vietnam War veteran who flew the American flag upside down to protest the war in Iraq. He was arrested for violating a 1977 Nebraska law prohibiting the "mutilation of a flag," which it defines this way. "A person commits the offense of mutilating a flag if such person intentionally casts contempt or ridicule upon a flag..." The penalty is three months in jail. Of course, in many societies, the punishment for ridiculing God is far greater.
Our national anthem, sung at every sporting event and increasingly, at every mass political gathering, is the only one I know that focuses its devotion solely on a flag. "And the rockets' red glare / the bombs bursting in air / gave proof through the night that our Flag was still there." Congress has repeatedly thwarted attempts to substitute the eminently more singable and entirely more fitting song, "America the Beautiful," for "The Star Spangled Banner."
Following up on its 1943 decision, the U.S. Supreme Court in 1989 and again in 1990 declared that ridiculing or defacing the American flag was protected by the First Amendment. Which is why Congress is now about to send a Constitutional Amendment to the states.
God bless those who will fight this Congressional initiative as a dangerous precedent, the first Constitutional Amendment that restricts the reach of the Bill of Rights. Their devotion to the first 10 amendments to the Constitution is admirable. Perhaps we can expect devout Christians' equally fierce devotion to the Ten Commandments to energize them in opposition to this initiative.
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Posted by: acaryatid on Jun 21, 2005 4:11 AM
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» RE: acaryatid
Posted by: pappy1
» Excellent!
Posted by: WhatNow?
» RE: acaryatid
Posted by: specom
» Here's the truth folks!
Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: acaryatid - Take Back The Flag
Posted by: thirdmg
» RE: acaryatid - Take Back The Flag
Posted by: zorro
» RE: acaryatid - Take Back The Flag
Posted by: aldsar
» RE: acaryatid
Posted by: kmarx
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Posted by: ggmurray on Jun 21, 2005 4:40 AM
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But the war in Iraq has brought back those Vietnam feelings of shame. I fear we have lost the moral battle and have become a bully nation, insensitive to the aspirations of the poor in our own country, and around the world.
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» Right on Brother!
Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: Ashamed of the flag
Posted by: Jean Jearman
» RE: Ashamed of the flag
Posted by: churchofone
» RE: Ashamed of the flag
Posted by: zorro
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Posted by: jingoist on Jun 21, 2005 4:53 AM
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I read your article and was struck by a number of points. The first is your use of the 10 Commandments. Admittedly I don't know whether you are a person who believes in G-d or not, but often times I see atheists attempting to use scripture against people of faith. In my opinion this is the height of synicism. I don't think our "reverance"( feeling of deep respect, love, awe and esteem) for the flag qualifies as "worship" (1st def., verb Trans. to adore or pay devine honors to as a diety). Granted some people do go overboard with the flag "thing", but as a civic symbol flags have always been very important. Even more so in the great melting pot that is the U.S.A.. As for the second commandment it's very self explanatory and doesn't normally apply to this case, due to the difference between reverance and worship. Many rabbinical scholors that I've studied point to our "obsessions" (Star Wars, weight loss, American Idol, socialism, etc.) as forms of idol worship because they detract from the place in our heart that should be reserved for G-d alone. We worship G-d and revere the flag and what it stands for. I don't buy the first Amendment argument either. Anyone who didn't oppose the McCain-Feingold act, which directly abridged freedom of speech has no right to scream about an anti flag burning amendment, which would prohibit an act that is far more anarchistic in nature. As you are well aware the founders weren't concerned with crucifixes in jars of urine when they enacted the 1st Amendment. They were talking about press, speech, assembly and petition to the govt. for redress of grievences. So I ask again, where were the 1st Amendment loving progressives during McCain-Feingold? I enjoyed your article but disagree with your conclusions. Let's give Old Glory a little bit of protection. JINGOIST
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» RE: JINGOIST
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» RE: JINGOIST
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» RE: JINGOIST
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» RE: JINGOIST
Posted by: zorro
» RE: JINGOIST
Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: JINGOIST
Posted by: kk33deg
» RE: JINGOIST
Posted by: jingoist
» So 20th Century!
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» RE: DINGLEOIST
Posted by: Michiganman
» PLEASE DON'T FEED THE TROLL
Posted by: Pinko
» RE: PLEASE DON'T FEED THE TROLL
Posted by: Michiganman
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Posted by: Balanchine on Jun 21, 2005 6:08 AM
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Who could possibly be a threat?
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» RE: Second Commandment
Posted by: stevewilkesuk
» RE: Second Commandment
Posted by: nakis
» Ha Good one
Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: Second Commandment
Posted by: Doug1956
» Psst: God is Sexless, eh!
Posted by: neilemac
» RE: Second Commandment
Posted by: Iamnotafruittree
» RE: Second Commandment
Posted by: TagsNOLA
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Posted by: neilemac on Jun 21, 2005 6:13 AM
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Posted by: apodopa on Jun 19, 2005 5:08 PM
... "We are evangelicals and that mean(s) we go out into the world and talk about issues, not only religion, but politics. Increasingly, at least for us, politics and religion are one and the smae(same?), always has been."
(brackets are mine, neilemac, someone has to teach apodopa grammar, how to spell ;-))
Well, I guess the flag is apodopa's and other American religious zealots' modern day "burning cross;" except they glorify it but don't really set it on fire.
Rupert Murdock's flagrant disinformation wielding FOX news network uses the flag as a backdrop while flaunting 24/7 biast rightwing rhetoric.
The "stars and stripes" hasn't only become a graven image for those rightwing bigoted THEOCORPORATIST bullying liars and rightwing religious zealots, it has become a symbol of contempt to the rest of our cultured civilized world.
"What have they done to my song, ma"... Melanie Safka (recorded by the "New Seekers" circa 1970) namaste
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» RE: Who's kidding whom, eh! I heard that!
Posted by: apodopa
» RE: Who's kidding whom, eh! I heard that!
Posted by: Shehova
» You were almost not insulting, too!
Posted by: neilemac
» RE: You were almost not insulting, too!
Posted by: Shehova
» RE: Who's kidding whom, eh! I heard that!
Posted by: apodopa
» RE: Who's kidding whom, eh! I heard that!
Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: Who's kidding whom, eh! I heard that!
Posted by: apodopa
» RE: Who's kidding whom, eh! I heard that!
Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: Cudo's 2 u numb***
Posted by: apodopa
» RE: Cudo's 2 u numb***
Posted by: Michiganman
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Posted by: zeeartiste on Jun 21, 2005 6:17 AM
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It used to represent a great country, now, neither the country nor the flag are great. When displayed in other countries, whether on a t-shirt, a pin, or anything else, it's looked upon as a symbol of decadence, abuse, and just about every other derogatory thing we do as americans.
People want to save the flag from harm. Why? The same people who cry when the flag is "harmed", are a lot of the same people who don't give a shit about their fellow man.
We need to concentrate on ourselves as a people, then we can pick what we want to represent us accurately.
Fuck the flag, it's as meaningless as america.
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» RE: "Old Glory" is Dead
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» RE: "Old Glory" is Dead
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» RE: "Old Glory" is Dead
Posted by: Walter22
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Posted by: revchad on Jun 21, 2005 6:25 AM
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One of the distinctions that we might make is whether or not an object can be revered without being "worshipped" through ritual? Can we revere and admire the flag without combining it with ritual? As a pastor who has spent significant time studying the bible, what I have seen is that the text referring to graven images is in direct reference to the people of Israel setting up graven images as gods and then combining it with a sense of ritual worship. For example, when the Israelites created the golden calf while Moses was on Mt. Sinai getting the Ten Commandments, they not only admired it, they treated it as if it were a god and began dancing around it in ritualistic fashion.
We in the United States have our own rituals as this article points out. Whether it was the rather ridiculous near Nazi sign or even the simple placing our hands over our hearts, we have rituals that combine with our reverence. Does this, then, constitute as worship? I am sure that most people do not think of our flag literally as a god as some ancient cultures might have done so with objects. However, when we combine the ritualism around our flag with right wing religion, we most certainly come close to melding our reverence into worship. Too close, in fact, for me.
I especially get nervous that most churches, even churches I have served, have the Christian flag and the American flag in the sanctuary or on a poll out front. I find this abominable and near Crusade like. Any combination of the State with religion begins to create a dualistic world where violence is nearly inevitable as a result of creating an "us" and a "them." In fact, that is what nationalism itself does, which is what our flag represents. Perhaps one day we will be able to see the Lion sit down with the Lamb and we will practice war no more.
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» RE: Does reverence require ritual?
Posted by: Robba29
» RE: Does reverence require ritual?
Posted by: Katja144
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Posted by: DannyHaszard on Jun 21, 2005 6:33 AM
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All the abuse i endured was all for NOTHING!Because Jehovah's Witnesses are just a ripoff cult who won't salute the flag but have more pedophiles and psychopaths per-capita then anywhere except the prisons.
My life story as a f**ked Jehovah's Witness http://www.DannyHaszard.com
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Posted by: thx1138 on Jun 21, 2005 7:05 AM
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The american flag as it is used by the fascist republicans is nothing more than piece of evil looking cloth not unlike the Nazi flag. It will be interesting to see if the knee jerk fascists pass laws to also outlaw its "defacing" by advertisers. Doubt it.
But if the law is passed the first thing I am going to do is go downtown and burn a flag on main street to show my love and respect for MY freedom. If I did nothing I would be ashamed of myslef.
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» RE: The American Flag is a colorful rag, ntohing more
Posted by: warpig
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Posted by: kingfelix on Jun 21, 2005 7:22 AM
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We've had to put up with numerous attempts to run us off the road here in Memphis and Nashville, for the crime of having Democrat bumper stickers. Engage in free speech at your own risk!
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» RE: So so strange
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» RE: So so strange
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» RE: So so strange
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» RE: So so strange
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» RE: So so strange
Posted by: kingfelix
» RE: So so strange
Posted by: jingoist
» RE: So so strange
Posted by: oregonhempqueen
» RE: So so strange
Posted by: jakstrate
» Thanks....
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Posted by: RED on Jun 21, 2005 7:52 AM
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» RE: Northern Exposure
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Posted by: jumperl on Jun 21, 2005 7:54 AM
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Posted by: wannabersc on Jun 21, 2005 8:01 AM
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I have belief in people like the aforementioned. I do not believe in Governments, National Parties, Multi-National Corporations or Religious zealotry. These, along with many left un-named destroy with little in the way positive advancement for Mankind. Sure, we have everything we want located conveniently at a nearby WallMart. And you can drink an ice cold Coke, as long as you ignore the murders that back that lovely Corporate neighbor. None of these "Institutions" is my Courty
You worry about the Flag. I worry about a Country.
My Flag flies daily in front of my house, She is just fine. Let any man or woman touch her and they will see what one man is willing to do to protect Her
My Country, on the other hand; How much more abuse will She survive at the hands of those who hate humanity?
Culture of Death or suicide pact? I no longer know.
v/r,
R.S. Covey
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» RE: My Flag
Posted by: nakis
» RE: My Flag
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» RE: My Flag
Posted by: warpig
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Posted by: Campesino on Jun 21, 2005 8:37 AM
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Not true. There was a military draft during the Civil War as well as an income tax.
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Posted by: nakis on Jun 21, 2005 8:51 AM
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Many servicemen and ex-servicemen deeply resent anyone showing disrespect for the flag. Strictly from the fact that they give so much for their country. Men die beneath that flag. Soldiers loose sanity, limbs, sacrifice greatly beneath that flag.
I personally respect and encourage discent towards any institution that causes harm to humanity. Out of respect for the millions of people who've worked, lived, suffered and died for the American dream of freedom and democracy I choose not to disrespect the flag in any way.
To me it's not idolotry. I do not worship it. I respect it for the people it represents.
In my mind it's about the people not those who use it to disrespect it.
Yes, I do believe that people idolize it. They use it, abuse it. They sell the flag. Another way to push rampant capitalism.
I truly believe that within the next century people will look back at this time and see the abuse of the American dream for what it is.
You can't get everyone to see the flag in the same way. People see symbols as they relate to their experience.
You may disagree and must respect that. I loathe what our domestic and foreign policies, rampant nationalism and capitalism, military industrial complex, fundamental religious beliefs, etc.. are doing in the name of God and America.
But deep down, and maybe its programming, I agree with protecting the flag from being disrespected. I think it is from my belief of what the flag represents. People. Sacrifice. Honor. Not the whores who sell themselves and their brothers for money, power and idolotry.
I do wholeheartedly respect the right to discent. But perhaps it can be done without disrespecting the flag.
We do live in America. We are about making our laws in respect to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Discounting the idiots who believe the crap shoved in their faces, I think we should respect the flag for the millions of courageous people who really made America what it is. We the People. Even if some of them don't deserve the respect.
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» RE: Nothing New
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Posted by: bqtrain on Jun 21, 2005 8:56 AM
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» RE: Democracy in Action
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Posted by: blacksheep on Jun 21, 2005 9:42 AM
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Thank you for an interesting argument about flag worship. If Jingoist thinks it is synicism [sic] to use scripture against those who weild its power, then I have to point out that we do so in the name of consistency. The same concern for consistency is what led Jingoist to criticise First Amendment advocates for not opposing the McCain-Feingold Act but now opposing the state's protections of flag sanctity. ( But hypocritsy
has always been s stumbling block for the religious amongst us. )
It seems to me that the issue is not where or whether reverence for the flag turns into "idolatry" or "blasphemy" as that is a purely religious matter. It is not because flag worship is 'blasphemy' that we ought be allowed to desecrate it. If Americans did not have the freedom to desecrate a national symbol, then nor would they be free to revere it. Their reverence would be compulsory. Freedom means having a genuine choice between two options, rather than being compelled by the thought police to worship a symbolic totem or to revile a social taboo.
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Posted by: aida1200 on Jun 21, 2005 9:50 AM
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Incidentally, in Baltimore it's illegal to sing "The Star Spangled Banner" in an inappropriate manner, which strictly speaking includes starting it and not singing all the stanzas.
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» Anthem
Posted by: susan9390
» RE: Anthem
Posted by: aida1200
» RE: Flag worship
Posted by: aida1200
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Posted by: rusrus on Jun 21, 2005 10:01 AM
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1) People will burn pictures of the President
1a) The government will ban burning pictures of politicians
2) People will burn drawings of the President
2a) The government will ban burning drawings os politicians
3) People will burn pieces of paper with the word, "President" on it
3a) The government, in an effort to stay one-step ahead of wily protestors, will ban burning anything.
As long as we keep voting for these numb-nut congressional representatives, we're in for a rough ride. Good thing the Republicans are there to save us from ourselves.
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» RE: Logical Conclusions
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» RE: Logical Conclusions - Empires die slow
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» RE: Logical Conclusions - Empires die slow
Posted by: royrogers
» RE: Logical Conclusions
Posted by: blacksheep
» RE: Logical Conclusions
Posted by: bonapartist
» They won't ban the burning of oil though.
Posted by: WhatNow?
» Next will be defacing mom and apple pie?
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: TheySayImUnamerican on Jun 21, 2005 10:10 AM
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» RE: How I Will Use This Law
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» RE: How I Will Use This Law
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» RE: How I Will Use This Law
Posted by: kidsis
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Posted by: benu67 on Jun 21, 2005 10:57 AM
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http://dubyaspeak.com/incidents.shtml
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Posted by: whatever on Jun 21, 2005 11:08 AM
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I have to face it, my flag is meaningless. The ideals it inspired in some have been far outweighed by the evil done by others, in "it's" name. It's been a reluctance, for me, to feel this or admit it to myself. To realize that, for most of the rest of the world? Our flad is something to fear. It means military power. It means they'll do anything to you they can get away with, and passively and actively suppoprt the worst of war ciminals in other nations.
Have to face it. What our flag means, it's just like the confederate flag, now. It might have been a pride to some, pride for the south, but for so many others, it's a symbol of oppression and hate. One might not like to view one's flag that way, but, if one's flag inspires that feeling in *others*, is it really anything to be proud of? If those feelings are not only perfectly justified, due to past actions and attitudes upheld by those lovers of that flag, but also, that those feelngs are shared by others that *weren't* hurt, but still feel shame? Who want's a flag like that?
It's not just what our flag means to us. It's what our flag means to others, how we have represented our flag. For all that, it's nothing to be proud of. What good is it to tout the ideals of freedom and democracy if all you do is show the world what a lovely job you do of undermining those ideals? It does nothing but harm to those ideals. Worse than never addressing it at all; perverting past all recognition. What a subversion. Nothing to be proud of there.
Since Bush has been president, nothing has improved in the world, in terms of freedoms, that I know of. The only things that have improved are the profits of big businesses, and that's the only thing I can think of that's better now than it was before. Business profits.
They're the ones that ought to pledge to the flag. They friggin own it.
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» Very True
Posted by: Michiganman
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Posted by: georip on Jun 21, 2005 11:28 AM
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The flag is like a prayer upon the wind and when we are all tapped in to a beautiful prayer the world will be a beautiful place.
The flagpole Eagle, Now there is the symbol we should be talking about.
I love the eagle, as long as it represents the eternal vigilence and strength of the sovereign citizen. As long as it represents the power of the bond between natural man and the Gods, or even, if you will, God! As long as it does not represent the Imperial power of the State.
I know of nothing closer to the Godhead than the unity of man for the general welfare. It is time that the Imperial power of the State be challenged by citizens exercising their eagle eyed vigilence and acting in protecting the general welfare of mankind and indeed, of all life from enemies both inside and outside the country.
There are other alternatives to the Imperial Roman Eagle symbolism. The Dove Descending is a nice one.
Other tradditional flagpole finial symbols to discuss are the spear point and the "cannon ball".. Why not a sheaf of wheat or the blue green planet?
Save me from the jingoist but let's make this country something that we can be proud of. Starting with a strong focus on electoral reform.
The flag as a symbol is a power tool, and like any other tool in the box it can be used positively, creatively and for good. One need not fear its power, one must learn to use it. No one person or party "owns" it. By the way, when it is burned it returns to the dust from which it is renewed. The Dragon is dead. Long live the Dragon.
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Posted by: pulsatrix on Jun 21, 2005 11:57 AM
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"I swear that I will, to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States."
That's where my allegience lies.
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» RE: A better pledge
Posted by: jingoist
» Patriotic Propaganda
Posted by: susan9390
» RE: Patriotic Propaganda
Posted by: jingoist
» RE: A better pledge -- Promise, not Swear
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» RE: A better pledge
Posted by: Katja144
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Posted by: hotlipsin61 on Jun 21, 2005 12:14 PM
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When the national anthem is played I can't look at the flag. But if anyone speaks out about it we're labeled outcasts or called unpatriotic. Therefore the flag is used to divide us as any other issue out today.
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Posted by: hotlipsin61 on Jun 21, 2005 12:57 PM
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People have (needlessly) died because of our flag. But then some say it's a source of pride. If anyone dares to criticize the flag they're called unpatriotic or worse. The U.S.A. is one of the few nations that lets flag worshipping go to its head.
When the anthem is played I can't look at the flag because to me it represents a crass, jingoistic, cultural imperialism. But we've gone too far with a proposed amendment. It defies logic.
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Posted by: wbblack on Jun 21, 2005 1:27 PM
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If you never burned the Stars & Stripes I suggest that you do. I’ve burned a few and it felt just wonderful. Just so you know I ain’t no “furiner,” I was born in the USA.
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Posted by: diamondvajra on Jun 21, 2005 2:14 PM
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The ONLY object that one can "desecrate" is a RELIGIOUS object ergo, our gentle congress people are confusing the "flag" with a "holy" object.
THEY ARE WRONG
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» RE: "Desecration"
Posted by: aida1200
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Posted by: Chris500 on Jun 21, 2005 2:21 PM
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» RE: Chris
Posted by: jingoist
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Posted by: Boronia on Jun 21, 2005 2:24 PM
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While oh so quite on real issues.
Setting Him Straight?
Zach is a gay teen whose parents forced him to attend "religious camp" to "make him straight." But these camps are better at psychologically hurting teens than at changing their sexuality.
Defacing a flag or young people, cloths vs. people mmm very difficult choice.
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Posted by: Kajamian on Jun 21, 2005 2:44 PM
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I was especially struck by the reference to the Confederate flag. It ties together much of what many of us seem to be saying: There is deep commitment to what the flag represented; but it's place in the world order of things has been tainted. I have always felt pride in our nation and our flag until recently. I would like to feel the same way again. But it is more important for our flag and country to do some serious thinking about our Constitution and what America should stand for.
Adding a Constitutional Amendment about the flag is only a little more intelligent than one that would preserve the "sanctity of marriage." That's why it's HARD to AMEND the Constitution.
This begins to smell like another diversionary tactic by the administration in power to keep our attention away from their shenannigans.
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» RE: Thanks Everyone!
Posted by: royrogers
» RE: Thanks Everyone!
Posted by: nakis
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Posted by: Kajamian on Jun 21, 2005 2:47 PM
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[[Just eight months ago, Lincoln, Nebraska police arrested a 64-year-old Vietnam War veteran who flew the American flag upside down to protest the war in Iraq. He was arrested for violating a 1977 Nebraska law prohibiting the "mutilation of a flag," which it defines this way. "A person commits the offense of mutilating a flag if such person intentionally casts contempt or ridicule upon a flag..." The penalty is three months in jail. Of course, in many societies, the punishment for ridiculing God is far greater.]]
Regarding the Nebraska law about "mutilation of the flag." The Vietnam Vet was NOT mutilating OR ridiculing the flag in any way. The flag rules as I remember them state that the flag is not to be flown upside down EXCEPT as a SYMBOL OF DISTRESS. I would heartily agree with that Vet: we are certainly in distress!
SUGGESTION: For everyone who feels distress for the United States of America.
Maybe on JULY 4th, 2005, it would be a good idea for EVERYONE to fly their flag upside down!
Especially in Nebraska!
What are they going to do? Arrest everyone?
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» RE: On July 4th, 2005
Posted by: royrogers
» RE: On July 4th, 2005
Posted by: susan9390
» RE: On July 4th, 2005
Posted by: nakis
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Posted by: acatastrophicsuccess on Jun 21, 2005 3:34 PM
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www.acatastrophicsuccess.com
is defense of the flag worth more than human life and dignity? i think that the point made about really following the 2nd commandment is fascinating. thank you for your interesting and timely commentary...
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Posted by: Michiganman on Jun 21, 2005 4:04 PM
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Posted by: Asses of Evil on Jun 21, 2005 4:29 PM
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» Thank You Great
Posted by: Michiganman
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Posted by: sethpjohnson on Jun 21, 2005 5:51 PM
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The point that the author fails to make is that the belief in God is at least as unhealthy as the belief that countries are a good thing. Either one makes a person uneducable.
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» RE: A Dangerous Game
Posted by: Katja144
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Posted by: andycadd on Jun 21, 2005 6:59 PM
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I already use Confederate Flag Toilet Paper
Show your patriotism Celebrate the VICTORY of the Civil War
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» RE: Confederate Flag BURNING Day
Posted by: susan9390
» RE: Confederate Flag BURNING Day
Posted by: andycadd
» RE: Confederate Flag BURNING Day
Posted by: Kym525
» RE: Confederate Flag BURNING Day
Posted by: spyderbaby
» RE: Confederate Flag BURNING Day
Posted by: Kym525
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Posted by: apodopa on Jun 21, 2005 7:07 PM
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» RE: Now I know why Liberals hate the flag, Thank You
Posted by: nakis
» RE: Now I know why Liberals hate the flag, Thank You
Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: Now I know why Liberals hate the flag, Thank You
Posted by: nakis
» Do progressives hate the flag...or simply love democracy more?
Posted by: cmysticism
» RE: Do progressives hate the flag...or simply love democracy more?
Posted by: Kym525
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Posted by: karyse on Jun 21, 2005 7:10 PM
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How about those tiny paper flags on the end of toothpicks? Do I have to give them a proper burial, or can I still toss them in the trash?
What if I wrote "American Flag" in red white and blue letters? Would that count? If I crossed out the words in blood would that be desecration?
If I take a photograph of the flag then decide I don't want it, can I put it in the burn pile? And what about an old worn out T-shirt that has an American Flag on it? Shall I keep it forever or send it to my idiot congressman to dipose of?
Get real people. It is impossible to protect a symbol because one can always find some other symbol to function as a stand-in for the last one.
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Posted by: Puck on Jun 21, 2005 7:34 PM
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Posted by: Wombat on Jun 21, 2005 7:50 PM
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Australia's Prime Minister John Howard has been described as an ar#$ lick%^ as far as his fawning to the US is concerned. He seems to be obsessed by having big and powerful friends to protect Australia should we ever face an external threat. Of course the US will follow its own interestes so it is by no means certain what if any help might again come this way should we need it.
No criticism intended by that. And I have no problem in admiring the USA and all it -used - to stand for. In fact as a post WWII refugee from Europe I would have been an American and not an Australian now if your visa people had been 3 months faster back then. And I still think the words of the Declaration of Independence are some of the most beautiful crafted in the English language. Mind you I know Jefferson was a slave owner and he was probably talking about freedom etc for white male property owners.
Point is our PM is extremely conservative and so we now have federal financial grants to education in the various states and terroritories conditional on all schools having a flag pole and running the flag regularly. So we are taking steps in your direction.
We Australians have been rather less attached to the formal and open patriotism that you Americans seem to favour, but I believe we are no less patriotic for all that. In the end it is deeds that count.
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Posted by: Don on Jun 21, 2005 8:07 PM
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Interesting that this proposal reared its head once again at the very moment that the Downing Street memos started making headlines in the mainstream news. Smokescreen or not?
This amendment was first proposed as a reaction to a Supreme Court decision that ruled that destruction of a flag as a gesture of protest was a form of expression protected by the First Amendment.
What is being proposed is to amend the Constitution for the sole purpose of removing a legal right previously enumerated in the original Bill of Rights.
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Posted by: Here and now on Jun 21, 2005 10:06 PM
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You may not buy the first amendment argument, that is your opinion which you can freely express because of the first amendment, however burning the flag very much sends a message to anyone paying attention. The last time that I checked a message is a form of speech and thus covered by the first amendment right to freedom of speech. I suppose that you subscribe to a narrow view of freedom of speech as to why you do not buy the first amendment right argument. However, the 10th amendment: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people to me sounds like the 1st amendment does in fact cover freedom of speech because the constitution does not ban it nor do the states collectively. Further the 9th amendment: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people makes it clear to me that amendments are not meant to restrict the rights of the people as provided by the constitution. In fact I think that a constitutional case could be made that if such an amendment to the constitution were made, that it could be overturned just as prohibition was overturned because it is the deliberate restriction of the rights of the people.
See next comment part 2
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» RE: Jingoist for Jesus part I
Posted by: jingoist
» RE: Jingoist for Jesus part I
Posted by: Here and now
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Posted by: Here and now on Jun 21, 2005 10:10 PM
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Old Glory has just as much protection as any other item. The only reason anyone cares is because of the reverence and the worship that it receives. I am not going to give it more protection than any other graven image receives by way of the constitution. The flag represents many ideas to many people and that is well within their rights including yours, just don't shove your religious beliefs down my throat or anyone elses throat.
With that said, I just looked up the meaning of jingoism to see what it is that you peddle yourself as being since you have chosen to hide your identity behind it, just like a coward and cherry-picking bully that you are. Here we go...
Jingoism: Extreme nationalism characterized especially by a belligerent foreign policy; chauvinistic patriotism. Yep that sums you up pretty well by my estimation.
Oh I like this political definiton: Extreme and emotional nationalism, or chauvinism, often characterized by an aggressive foreign policy, accompanied by an eagerness to wage war.Yep that fits you like coward and cherry-picking bully that you are.
Oh how interesting, it is also a 'euphemism for "by Jesus,"'
Hope that sets you straight.
By the way Jesus is a Liberal. Feed the hungary, care for the sick, help the poor, pray for peace.
Lastly, do unto others as they would have you do unto them -- my version of the LOVE commandment.
Hey I'm blunt. It is my nature.
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Posted by: thesteelykid on Jun 22, 2005 6:58 AM
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» RE: God Hates Flags
Posted by: steveheeren
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Posted by: heliana on Jun 22, 2005 11:50 AM
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If you decide to worship it, that's fine by me, but I would prefer doing my own thing. That doesn't include defacing the flag, shredding it to bits of burning it. It also doesn't include praying to the flagpole or a bit of printed cloth either. I find that rather mechanical and non-spiritual.
So you go ahead and do what you want with your flag, but keep me out of it. You can't generalize feelings into uniformity with a law.
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Posted by: cafn8d on Jun 22, 2005 3:24 PM
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Posted by: ccbite on Jun 22, 2005 3:47 PM
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» RE: Hmmmmm ... I smell a rat
Posted by: Michiganman
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Posted by: wbritton on Jun 24, 2005 3:53 AM
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-When asked what the flag means to them, most Americans will immediately answer, “Freedom.” But since our history includes a long episode of slavery and the repression of various social and ethnic groups, does not the flag also connote these less palatable traces of national character? Indeed, it can be argued that for some Americans, the flag represents little more than social and economic marginalization.
-Once a flag becomes old and worn or stained, its proper disposal requires burning. How can the courts distinguish between these ceremonies and those initiated by citizens who view the country, and therefore the flag, as morally worn or stained, its courage turned cowardly, its purity violated, and its justice compromised? A nation must pay the price if it is to honor the concept of free expression.
-Flags are manufactured articles. They enter the stream of distribution not unlike other of capitalism’s goods and are then sold to consumers. Can rights of ownership be displaced by a prohibition against the destruction of a manufactured article by its legal owner? To claim that this nation owns the symbolic portion of a flag I have purchased for $24.88 at Wal-Mart flies in the face of logic. Although flag burning might lie at the fringes of individual liberty, its impact as a political statement will only be enhanced by its prohibition. A flag worth its salt as a national symbol should be made of better stuff and need not fear protest in any form, even if that means its occasional immolation.
-On most national holidays, I fly two flags: the national symbol and the Marine Corps globe and anchor. I love both symbols for different reasons, but they remain just that: symbols of my country and symbols of part of my personal history.
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Posted by: zeeartiste on Jun 24, 2005 5:14 PM
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Everyone who feels the flag isn't what it used to be, and also feel that it represents an america none of us agree with, hold flag burning parties.
Maybe, and I know this may be a stretch, if enough americans are seen burning "old glory" on the day we're supposed to be celebrating freedom, it may wake some people up.
IF enough people do it, and alert their local medias, I think it would make the most powerful statement for freedom, in a very long time.
Even if you're by yourself, call your newspaper and tell them you're burning the flag on the 4th in protest of the government, and our illusion of freedom.
Just a concept, but, a most powerful one, if carried out.
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Posted by: cmysticism on Jun 25, 2005 2:03 AM
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Though the flag, in and of itself, is not a religious symbol, the religiosity in which it's being protected against "defacement" by a proposed law goes against everything democracy stands for, and is indicative of religious worship. I'm not saying that all right-wing Christians support such a measure, but go into any Christian store catering to these people, and you will see U.S. flags and pro-American books with the flag on the front cover for sale. Evangelicals clearly see their religion and "Americanism" to be intertwined.
This proposal is also designed to legally endorse American vanity, and to criminalize anyone who believes that America should stand for democracy instead of "greatness."
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Posted by: dan10opa on Jun 25, 2005 12:14 PM
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Posted by: rosenmontag on Jun 25, 2005 4:53 PM
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Reforms brought about restrictions in liberty, but this was a small price to pay for security. Their "way of life" was threatened, consequently the enemies were clearly identified and eventually eliminated. "God is with us" on belt buckles of Army uniforms.
Overabundance of national flag (desecration verboten) and patriotic symbols encouraging and supporting the struggling country's efforts to be what it once was.
Pressure on all to unite, no toleration for dissent. Invasion of other countries necessary for national security.
Sieg Heil! (Holy Victory!)
Don't want to jump on the bandwagon of making Nazi comparisons...oops I guess I did! I've been living in Germany for some time now and observed how the people make enormous effort to avoid repeating history - amazingly resulting in attitudes and laws reflecting the ideas of the American Constitution.
Never wanted to burn the flag, but was sure damn proud to have the right to do it.
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Posted by: Stephen McArthur on Jun 25, 2005 8:19 PM
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They have nothing better to do than obsess on an issue like flag-burning. Most of them chickenhawks. Most of them heedless to the current and pressing need to provide our soldiers with better protection in Iraq. Most of them supporters of the Bush welfare programs for the rich and for tax-breaks to corporations. Most of them sinking this country into the largest deficit in our history. Most of them careless about our environment and the future health of our children.
But, by God, this witless majority has helped to protect America by fighting for a Constitutional Amendment banning flag-burning. These are the heroic members of Congress defending America.
Imagine that. Millions of pieces of red, white and blue cloth that are one of many symbols of this country threatened by waves of crazed liberals lighting matches. But have no fear, once this new Constitutional Amendment is in place, wingnut liberals can start burning copies of the Constitution itself in protest. And when they pass a Constitutional Amendment banning burning copies of the Constitution, enraged liberals can start burning copies of the Declaration of Independence in protest. And when they enact a Constitutional Amendment banning burning copies of the Declaration of Independence, traitorous liberals can start burning copies of the Republican platform. And the heroic members of Congress can fight on with more Amendments to the Constitution, defending life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
My father was a company commander (E Company, 66th Infantry, 71st Division) in France, Germany and Austria in WWII. The 71st, by the way, was the division that ended up liberating more concentration camps than any other. To make a long and very interesting story short, when my dad heard about the first flag burning amendment effort years ago, his comment to me was "My men died so that people in this country could burn the flag in protest."
As posted on http://orwellsgrave.blogspot com
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Posted by: Fogbelter on Jun 26, 2005 1:01 PM
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Posted by: outsidea on Jun 26, 2005 3:17 PM
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Posted by: Half Fast Skier on Jun 27, 2005 3:11 PM
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I point out that when one enlists or re-enlists in the military, one never is asked to defend, protect, or honor the flag. It's the Constitution, stupid!
The flag is nothing but a symbol. It's the Constitution that holds the power of the Nation and that's what the military swears to uphold...not the flag.
There is no way one can compare the flag and Constitution. The flag is a symbol, but the Constitution is a series of words arranged is such a manner that creates an Government.
regards
.
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Posted by: Katja144 on Jun 28, 2005 12:36 PM
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All of these people, more worried about a piece of cloth than about the people it represents.
You're not supposed to leave a flag unilluminated at night or out in foul weather, but it doesn't matter if people walk dangerous streets at night without proper lighting or live in cardboard boxes out in the elements.
You have to retire your flag with dignity, but Terri Schiavo was starved to death, along with all of the other people who meet sad, undignified, or violent ends.
You have to be careful about how you fly your flag--how its placement is in respect to other flags, how high on the pole it's flying--in other words,people worry more about who their flag is hanging out with than about who their kids are hanging out with.
It's a piece of cloth, people. "America" is an idea. Meanwhile all around are the people who made up this idea of America and nobody gives a shit about them.
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Posted by: the_honorable_edgar on Aug 31, 2005 10:05 PM
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He/she wrote: "I'm sure the thousands of people dying in Iraq will rest peacefully knowing the flag is more important than their lives."
Hm, apparently you're not aware of William Carney's story? The first black American to be awarded the Medal of Honor... willing to die before letting the flag touch the ground. What a bunch of fucking idiots you all are, really... all of you... I don't care if you're liberal, conservative, whatever... the flag should be proudly waved by all Americans.
If Carney was willing to die for it in a time when racism and bigotry were rampant against our black citizens, why aren't any of you willing to AT LEAST wave it? Morons.
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Posted by: acaryatid on Jun 21, 2005 4:11 AM
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» RE: acaryatid
Posted by: pappy1
» Excellent!
Posted by: WhatNow?
» RE: acaryatid
Posted by: specom
» Here's the truth folks!
Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: acaryatid - Take Back The Flag
Posted by: thirdmg
» RE: acaryatid - Take Back The Flag
Posted by: zorro
» RE: acaryatid - Take Back The Flag
Posted by: aldsar
» RE: acaryatid
Posted by: kmarx
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Posted by: ggmurray on Jun 21, 2005 4:40 AM
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But the war in Iraq has brought back those Vietnam feelings of shame. I fear we have lost the moral battle and have become a bully nation, insensitive to the aspirations of the poor in our own country, and around the world.
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» Right on Brother!
Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: Ashamed of the flag
Posted by: Jean Jearman
» RE: Ashamed of the flag
Posted by: churchofone
» RE: Ashamed of the flag
Posted by: zorro
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Posted by: jingoist on Jun 21, 2005 4:53 AM
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I read your article and was struck by a number of points. The first is your use of the 10 Commandments. Admittedly I don't know whether you are a person who believes in G-d or not, but often times I see atheists attempting to use scripture against people of faith. In my opinion this is the height of synicism. I don't think our "reverance"( feeling of deep respect, love, awe and esteem) for the flag qualifies as "worship" (1st def., verb Trans. to adore or pay devine honors to as a diety). Granted some people do go overboard with the flag "thing", but as a civic symbol flags have always been very important. Even more so in the great melting pot that is the U.S.A.. As for the second commandment it's very self explanatory and doesn't normally apply to this case, due to the difference between reverance and worship. Many rabbinical scholors that I've studied point to our "obsessions" (Star Wars, weight loss, American Idol, socialism, etc.) as forms of idol worship because they detract from the place in our heart that should be reserved for G-d alone. We worship G-d and revere the flag and what it stands for. I don't buy the first Amendment argument either. Anyone who didn't oppose the McCain-Feingold act, which directly abridged freedom of speech has no right to scream about an anti flag burning amendment, which would prohibit an act that is far more anarchistic in nature. As you are well aware the founders weren't concerned with crucifixes in jars of urine when they enacted the 1st Amendment. They were talking about press, speech, assembly and petition to the govt. for redress of grievences. So I ask again, where were the 1st Amendment loving progressives during McCain-Feingold? I enjoyed your article but disagree with your conclusions. Let's give Old Glory a little bit of protection. JINGOIST
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» RE: JINGOIST
Posted by: Armafied
» RE: JINGOIST
Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: JINGOIST
Posted by: jingoist
» RE: JINGOIST
Posted by: redskin69
» RE: JINGOIST
Posted by: jingoist
» RE: JINGOIST
Posted by: crz53
» RE: JINGOIST
Posted by: jingoist
» RE: JINGOIST
Posted by: redskin69
» RE: JINGOIST
Posted by: jingoist
» RE: Nihilist
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» RE: Nihilist
Posted by: redskin69
» RE: JINGOIST
Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: JINGOIST
Posted by: jingoist
» RE: JINGOIST
Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: JINGOIST
Posted by: zorro
» RE: JINGOIST
Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: JINGOIST
Posted by: kk33deg
» RE: JINGOIST
Posted by: jingoist
» So 20th Century!
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» RE: DINGLEOIST
Posted by: Michiganman
» PLEASE DON'T FEED THE TROLL
Posted by: Pinko
» RE: PLEASE DON'T FEED THE TROLL
Posted by: Michiganman
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Posted by: Balanchine on Jun 21, 2005 6:08 AM
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Who could possibly be a threat?
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» RE: Second Commandment
Posted by: stevewilkesuk
» RE: Second Commandment
Posted by: nakis
» Ha Good one
Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: Second Commandment
Posted by: Doug1956
» Psst: God is Sexless, eh!
Posted by: neilemac
» RE: Second Commandment
Posted by: Iamnotafruittree
» RE: Second Commandment
Posted by: TagsNOLA
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Posted by: neilemac on Jun 21, 2005 6:13 AM
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Posted by: apodopa on Jun 19, 2005 5:08 PM
... "We are evangelicals and that mean(s) we go out into the world and talk about issues, not only religion, but politics. Increasingly, at least for us, politics and religion are one and the smae(same?), always has been."
(brackets are mine, neilemac, someone has to teach apodopa grammar, how to spell ;-))
Well, I guess the flag is apodopa's and other American religious zealots' modern day "burning cross;" except they glorify it but don't really set it on fire.
Rupert Murdock's flagrant disinformation wielding FOX news network uses the flag as a backdrop while flaunting 24/7 biast rightwing rhetoric.
The "stars and stripes" hasn't only become a graven image for those rightwing bigoted THEOCORPORATIST bullying liars and rightwing religious zealots, it has become a symbol of contempt to the rest of our cultured civilized world.
"What have they done to my song, ma"... Melanie Safka (recorded by the "New Seekers" circa 1970) namaste
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» RE: Who's kidding whom, eh! I heard that!
Posted by: apodopa
» RE: Who's kidding whom, eh! I heard that!
Posted by: Shehova
» You were almost not insulting, too!
Posted by: neilemac
» RE: You were almost not insulting, too!
Posted by: Shehova
» RE: Who's kidding whom, eh! I heard that!
Posted by: apodopa
» RE: Who's kidding whom, eh! I heard that!
Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: Who's kidding whom, eh! I heard that!
Posted by: apodopa
» RE: Who's kidding whom, eh! I heard that!
Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: Cudo's 2 u numb***
Posted by: apodopa
» RE: Cudo's 2 u numb***
Posted by: Michiganman
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Posted by: zeeartiste on Jun 21, 2005 6:17 AM
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It used to represent a great country, now, neither the country nor the flag are great. When displayed in other countries, whether on a t-shirt, a pin, or anything else, it's looked upon as a symbol of decadence, abuse, and just about every other derogatory thing we do as americans.
People want to save the flag from harm. Why? The same people who cry when the flag is "harmed", are a lot of the same people who don't give a shit about their fellow man.
We need to concentrate on ourselves as a people, then we can pick what we want to represent us accurately.
Fuck the flag, it's as meaningless as america.
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» RE: "Old Glory" is Dead
Posted by: thornbill
» RE: "Old Glory" is Dead
Posted by: deltadancer
» RE: "Old Glory" is Dead
Posted by: Walter22
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Posted by: revchad on Jun 21, 2005 6:25 AM
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One of the distinctions that we might make is whether or not an object can be revered without being "worshipped" through ritual? Can we revere and admire the flag without combining it with ritual? As a pastor who has spent significant time studying the bible, what I have seen is that the text referring to graven images is in direct reference to the people of Israel setting up graven images as gods and then combining it with a sense of ritual worship. For example, when the Israelites created the golden calf while Moses was on Mt. Sinai getting the Ten Commandments, they not only admired it, they treated it as if it were a god and began dancing around it in ritualistic fashion.
We in the United States have our own rituals as this article points out. Whether it was the rather ridiculous near Nazi sign or even the simple placing our hands over our hearts, we have rituals that combine with our reverence. Does this, then, constitute as worship? I am sure that most people do not think of our flag literally as a god as some ancient cultures might have done so with objects. However, when we combine the ritualism around our flag with right wing religion, we most certainly come close to melding our reverence into worship. Too close, in fact, for me.
I especially get nervous that most churches, even churches I have served, have the Christian flag and the American flag in the sanctuary or on a poll out front. I find this abominable and near Crusade like. Any combination of the State with religion begins to create a dualistic world where violence is nearly inevitable as a result of creating an "us" and a "them." In fact, that is what nationalism itself does, which is what our flag represents. Perhaps one day we will be able to see the Lion sit down with the Lamb and we will practice war no more.
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» RE: Does reverence require ritual?
Posted by: Robba29
» RE: Does reverence require ritual?
Posted by: Katja144
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Posted by: DannyHaszard on Jun 21, 2005 6:33 AM
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All the abuse i endured was all for NOTHING!Because Jehovah's Witnesses are just a ripoff cult who won't salute the flag but have more pedophiles and psychopaths per-capita then anywhere except the prisons.
My life story as a f**ked Jehovah's Witness http://www.DannyHaszard.com
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Posted by: thx1138 on Jun 21, 2005 7:05 AM
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The american flag as it is used by the fascist republicans is nothing more than piece of evil looking cloth not unlike the Nazi flag. It will be interesting to see if the knee jerk fascists pass laws to also outlaw its "defacing" by advertisers. Doubt it.
But if the law is passed the first thing I am going to do is go downtown and burn a flag on main street to show my love and respect for MY freedom. If I did nothing I would be ashamed of myslef.
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» RE: The American Flag is a colorful rag, ntohing more
Posted by: warpig
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Posted by: kingfelix on Jun 21, 2005 7:22 AM
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We've had to put up with numerous attempts to run us off the road here in Memphis and Nashville, for the crime of having Democrat bumper stickers. Engage in free speech at your own risk!
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» RE: So so strange
Posted by: jingoist
» RE: So so strange
Posted by: amatullah76
» RE: So so strange
Posted by: warpig
» RE: So so strange
Posted by: jakstrate
» RE: So so strange
Posted by: kingfelix
» RE: So so strange
Posted by: jingoist
» RE: So so strange
Posted by: oregonhempqueen
» RE: So so strange
Posted by: jakstrate
» Thanks....
Posted by: Katja144
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Posted by: RED on Jun 21, 2005 7:52 AM
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» RE: Northern Exposure
Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: Northern Exposure
Posted by: TagsNOLA
» RE: Northern Exposure
Posted by: steveheeren
» RE: Northern Exposure
Posted by: warpig
» RE: Northern Exposure
Posted by: Katja144
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Posted by: jumperl on Jun 21, 2005 7:54 AM
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Posted by: wannabersc on Jun 21, 2005 8:01 AM
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I have belief in people like the aforementioned. I do not believe in Governments, National Parties, Multi-National Corporations or Religious zealotry. These, along with many left un-named destroy with little in the way positive advancement for Mankind. Sure, we have everything we want located conveniently at a nearby WallMart. And you can drink an ice cold Coke, as long as you ignore the murders that back that lovely Corporate neighbor. None of these "Institutions" is my Courty
You worry about the Flag. I worry about a Country.
My Flag flies daily in front of my house, She is just fine. Let any man or woman touch her and they will see what one man is willing to do to protect Her
My Country, on the other hand; How much more abuse will She survive at the hands of those who hate humanity?
Culture of Death or suicide pact? I no longer know.
v/r,
R.S. Covey
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» RE: My Flag
Posted by: nakis
» RE: My Flag
Posted by: wannabersc
» RE: My Flag
Posted by: warpig
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Posted by: Campesino on Jun 21, 2005 8:37 AM
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Not true. There was a military draft during the Civil War as well as an income tax.
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Posted by: nakis on Jun 21, 2005 8:51 AM
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Many servicemen and ex-servicemen deeply resent anyone showing disrespect for the flag. Strictly from the fact that they give so much for their country. Men die beneath that flag. Soldiers loose sanity, limbs, sacrifice greatly beneath that flag.
I personally respect and encourage discent towards any institution that causes harm to humanity. Out of respect for the millions of people who've worked, lived, suffered and died for the American dream of freedom and democracy I choose not to disrespect the flag in any way.
To me it's not idolotry. I do not worship it. I respect it for the people it represents.
In my mind it's about the people not those who use it to disrespect it.
Yes, I do believe that people idolize it. They use it, abuse it. They sell the flag. Another way to push rampant capitalism.
I truly believe that within the next century people will look back at this time and see the abuse of the American dream for what it is.
You can't get everyone to see the flag in the same way. People see symbols as they relate to their experience.
You may disagree and must respect that. I loathe what our domestic and foreign policies, rampant nationalism and capitalism, military industrial complex, fundamental religious beliefs, etc.. are doing in the name of God and America.
But deep down, and maybe its programming, I agree with protecting the flag from being disrespected. I think it is from my belief of what the flag represents. People. Sacrifice. Honor. Not the whores who sell themselves and their brothers for money, power and idolotry.
I do wholeheartedly respect the right to discent. But perhaps it can be done without disrespecting the flag.
We do live in America. We are about making our laws in respect to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Discounting the idiots who believe the crap shoved in their faces, I think we should respect the flag for the millions of courageous people who really made America what it is. We the People. Even if some of them don't deserve the respect.
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» RE: Nothing New
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» RE: Nothing New
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» RE: Nothing New
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» RE: Nothing New
Posted by: amatullah76
» RE: Nothing New
Posted by: Kym525
» RE: Nothing New
Posted by: nakis
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Posted by: bqtrain on Jun 21, 2005 8:56 AM
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» RE: Democracy in Action
Posted by: Armafied
» RE: Democracy in Action
Posted by: bonapartist
» RE: Democracy in Action
Posted by: royrogers
» RE: Democracy in Action
Posted by: aldsar
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Posted by: blacksheep on Jun 21, 2005 9:42 AM
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Thank you for an interesting argument about flag worship. If Jingoist thinks it is synicism [sic] to use scripture against those who weild its power, then I have to point out that we do so in the name of consistency. The same concern for consistency is what led Jingoist to criticise First Amendment advocates for not opposing the McCain-Feingold Act but now opposing the state's protections of flag sanctity. ( But hypocritsy
has always been s stumbling block for the religious amongst us. )
It seems to me that the issue is not where or whether reverence for the flag turns into "idolatry" or "blasphemy" as that is a purely religious matter. It is not because flag worship is 'blasphemy' that we ought be allowed to desecrate it. If Americans did not have the freedom to desecrate a national symbol, then nor would they be free to revere it. Their reverence would be compulsory. Freedom means having a genuine choice between two options, rather than being compelled by the thought police to worship a symbolic totem or to revile a social taboo.
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Posted by: aida1200 on Jun 21, 2005 9:50 AM
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Incidentally, in Baltimore it's illegal to sing "The Star Spangled Banner" in an inappropriate manner, which strictly speaking includes starting it and not singing all the stanzas.
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» Anthem
Posted by: susan9390
» RE: Anthem
Posted by: aida1200
» RE: Flag worship
Posted by: aida1200
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Posted by: rusrus on Jun 21, 2005 10:01 AM
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1) People will burn pictures of the President
1a) The government will ban burning pictures of politicians
2) People will burn drawings of the President
2a) The government will ban burning drawings os politicians
3) People will burn pieces of paper with the word, "President" on it
3a) The government, in an effort to stay one-step ahead of wily protestors, will ban burning anything.
As long as we keep voting for these numb-nut congressional representatives, we're in for a rough ride. Good thing the Republicans are there to save us from ourselves.
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» RE: Logical Conclusions
Posted by: royrogers
» RE: Logical Conclusions - Empires die slow
Posted by: AnonymousCoward
» RE: Logical Conclusions - Empires die slow
Posted by: royrogers
» RE: Logical Conclusions
Posted by: blacksheep
» RE: Logical Conclusions
Posted by: bonapartist
» They won't ban the burning of oil though.
Posted by: WhatNow?
» Next will be defacing mom and apple pie?
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: TheySayImUnamerican on Jun 21, 2005 10:10 AM
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» RE: How I Will Use This Law
Posted by: benu67
» RE: How I Will Use This Law
Posted by: Shehova
» RE: How I Will Use This Law
Posted by: sassicatz
» RE: How I Will Use This Law
Posted by: kidsis
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Posted by: benu67 on Jun 21, 2005 10:57 AM
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http://dubyaspeak.com/incidents.shtml
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Posted by: whatever on Jun 21, 2005 11:08 AM
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I have to face it, my flag is meaningless. The ideals it inspired in some have been far outweighed by the evil done by others, in "it's" name. It's been a reluctance, for me, to feel this or admit it to myself. To realize that, for most of the rest of the world? Our flad is something to fear. It means military power. It means they'll do anything to you they can get away with, and passively and actively suppoprt the worst of war ciminals in other nations.
Have to face it. What our flag means, it's just like the confederate flag, now. It might have been a pride to some, pride for the south, but for so many others, it's a symbol of oppression and hate. One might not like to view one's flag that way, but, if one's flag inspires that feeling in *others*, is it really anything to be proud of? If those feelings are not only perfectly justified, due to past actions and attitudes upheld by those lovers of that flag, but also, that those feelngs are shared by others that *weren't* hurt, but still feel shame? Who want's a flag like that?
It's not just what our flag means to us. It's what our flag means to others, how we have represented our flag. For all that, it's nothing to be proud of. What good is it to tout the ideals of freedom and democracy if all you do is show the world what a lovely job you do of undermining those ideals? It does nothing but harm to those ideals. Worse than never addressing it at all; perverting past all recognition. What a subversion. Nothing to be proud of there.
Since Bush has been president, nothing has improved in the world, in terms of freedoms, that I know of. The only things that have improved are the profits of big businesses, and that's the only thing I can think of that's better now than it was before. Business profits.
They're the ones that ought to pledge to the flag. They friggin own it.
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» Very True
Posted by: Michiganman
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Posted by: georip on Jun 21, 2005 11:28 AM
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The flag is like a prayer upon the wind and when we are all tapped in to a beautiful prayer the world will be a beautiful place.
The flagpole Eagle, Now there is the symbol we should be talking about.
I love the eagle, as long as it represents the eternal vigilence and strength of the sovereign citizen. As long as it represents the power of the bond between natural man and the Gods, or even, if you will, God! As long as it does not represent the Imperial power of the State.
I know of nothing closer to the Godhead than the unity of man for the general welfare. It is time that the Imperial power of the State be challenged by citizens exercising their eagle eyed vigilence and acting in protecting the general welfare of mankind and indeed, of all life from enemies both inside and outside the country.
There are other alternatives to the Imperial Roman Eagle symbolism. The Dove Descending is a nice one.
Other tradditional flagpole finial symbols to discuss are the spear point and the "cannon ball".. Why not a sheaf of wheat or the blue green planet?
Save me from the jingoist but let's make this country something that we can be proud of. Starting with a strong focus on electoral reform.
The flag as a symbol is a power tool, and like any other tool in the box it can be used positively, creatively and for good. One need not fear its power, one must learn to use it. No one person or party "owns" it. By the way, when it is burned it returns to the dust from which it is renewed. The Dragon is dead. Long live the Dragon.
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Posted by: pulsatrix on Jun 21, 2005 11:57 AM
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"I swear that I will, to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States."
That's where my allegience lies.
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» RE: A better pledge
Posted by: jingoist
» Patriotic Propaganda
Posted by: susan9390
» RE: Patriotic Propaganda
Posted by: jingoist
» RE: A better pledge -- Promise, not Swear
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» RE: A better pledge
Posted by: Katja144
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Posted by: hotlipsin61 on Jun 21, 2005 12:14 PM
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When the national anthem is played I can't look at the flag. But if anyone speaks out about it we're labeled outcasts or called unpatriotic. Therefore the flag is used to divide us as any other issue out today.
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Posted by: hotlipsin61 on Jun 21, 2005 12:57 PM
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People have (needlessly) died because of our flag. But then some say it's a source of pride. If anyone dares to criticize the flag they're called unpatriotic or worse. The U.S.A. is one of the few nations that lets flag worshipping go to its head.
When the anthem is played I can't look at the flag because to me it represents a crass, jingoistic, cultural imperialism. But we've gone too far with a proposed amendment. It defies logic.
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Posted by: wbblack on Jun 21, 2005 1:27 PM
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If you never burned the Stars & Stripes I suggest that you do. I’ve burned a few and it felt just wonderful. Just so you know I ain’t no “furiner,” I was born in the USA.
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Posted by: diamondvajra on Jun 21, 2005 2:14 PM
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The ONLY object that one can "desecrate" is a RELIGIOUS object ergo, our gentle congress people are confusing the "flag" with a "holy" object.
THEY ARE WRONG
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» RE: "Desecration"
Posted by: aida1200
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Posted by: Chris500 on Jun 21, 2005 2:21 PM
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» RE: Chris
Posted by: jingoist
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Posted by: Boronia on Jun 21, 2005 2:24 PM
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While oh so quite on real issues.
Setting Him Straight?
Zach is a gay teen whose parents forced him to attend "religious camp" to "make him straight." But these camps are better at psychologically hurting teens than at changing their sexuality.
Defacing a flag or young people, cloths vs. people mmm very difficult choice.
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Posted by: Kajamian on Jun 21, 2005 2:44 PM
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I was especially struck by the reference to the Confederate flag. It ties together much of what many of us seem to be saying: There is deep commitment to what the flag represented; but it's place in the world order of things has been tainted. I have always felt pride in our nation and our flag until recently. I would like to feel the same way again. But it is more important for our flag and country to do some serious thinking about our Constitution and what America should stand for.
Adding a Constitutional Amendment about the flag is only a little more intelligent than one that would preserve the "sanctity of marriage." That's why it's HARD to AMEND the Constitution.
This begins to smell like another diversionary tactic by the administration in power to keep our attention away from their shenannigans.
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» RE: Thanks Everyone!
Posted by: royrogers
» RE: Thanks Everyone!
Posted by: nakis
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Posted by: Kajamian on Jun 21, 2005 2:47 PM
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[[Just eight months ago, Lincoln, Nebraska police arrested a 64-year-old Vietnam War veteran who flew the American flag upside down to protest the war in Iraq. He was arrested for violating a 1977 Nebraska law prohibiting the "mutilation of a flag," which it defines this way. "A person commits the offense of mutilating a flag if such person intentionally casts contempt or ridicule upon a flag..." The penalty is three months in jail. Of course, in many societies, the punishment for ridiculing God is far greater.]]
Regarding the Nebraska law about "mutilation of the flag." The Vietnam Vet was NOT mutilating OR ridiculing the flag in any way. The flag rules as I remember them state that the flag is not to be flown upside down EXCEPT as a SYMBOL OF DISTRESS. I would heartily agree with that Vet: we are certainly in distress!
SUGGESTION: For everyone who feels distress for the United States of America.
Maybe on JULY 4th, 2005, it would be a good idea for EVERYONE to fly their flag upside down!
Especially in Nebraska!
What are they going to do? Arrest everyone?
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» RE: On July 4th, 2005
Posted by: royrogers
» RE: On July 4th, 2005
Posted by: susan9390
» RE: On July 4th, 2005
Posted by: nakis
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Posted by: acatastrophicsuccess on Jun 21, 2005 3:34 PM
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www.acatastrophicsuccess.com
is defense of the flag worth more than human life and dignity? i think that the point made about really following the 2nd commandment is fascinating. thank you for your interesting and timely commentary...
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Posted by: Michiganman on Jun 21, 2005 4:04 PM
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Posted by: Asses of Evil on Jun 21, 2005 4:29 PM
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» Thank You Great
Posted by: Michiganman
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Posted by: sethpjohnson on Jun 21, 2005 5:51 PM
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The point that the author fails to make is that the belief in God is at least as unhealthy as the belief that countries are a good thing. Either one makes a person uneducable.
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» RE: A Dangerous Game
Posted by: Katja144
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Posted by: andycadd on Jun 21, 2005 6:59 PM
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I already use Confederate Flag Toilet Paper
Show your patriotism Celebrate the VICTORY of the Civil War
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» RE: Confederate Flag BURNING Day
Posted by: susan9390
» RE: Confederate Flag BURNING Day
Posted by: andycadd
» RE: Confederate Flag BURNING Day
Posted by: Kym525
» RE: Confederate Flag BURNING Day
Posted by: spyderbaby
» RE: Confederate Flag BURNING Day
Posted by: Kym525
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Posted by: apodopa on Jun 21, 2005 7:07 PM
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» RE: Now I know why Liberals hate the flag, Thank You
Posted by: nakis
» RE: Now I know why Liberals hate the flag, Thank You
Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: Now I know why Liberals hate the flag, Thank You
Posted by: nakis
» Do progressives hate the flag...or simply love democracy more?
Posted by: cmysticism
» RE: Do progressives hate the flag...or simply love democracy more?
Posted by: Kym525
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Posted by: karyse on Jun 21, 2005 7:10 PM
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How about those tiny paper flags on the end of toothpicks? Do I have to give them a proper burial, or can I still toss them in the trash?
What if I wrote "American Flag" in red white and blue letters? Would that count? If I crossed out the words in blood would that be desecration?
If I take a photograph of the flag then decide I don't want it, can I put it in the burn pile? And what about an old worn out T-shirt that has an American Flag on it? Shall I keep it forever or send it to my idiot congressman to dipose of?
Get real people. It is impossible to protect a symbol because one can always find some other symbol to function as a stand-in for the last one.
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Posted by: Puck on Jun 21, 2005 7:34 PM
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Posted by: Wombat on Jun 21, 2005 7:50 PM
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Australia's Prime Minister John Howard has been described as an ar#$ lick%^ as far as his fawning to the US is concerned. He seems to be obsessed by having big and powerful friends to protect Australia should we ever face an external threat. Of course the US will follow its own interestes so it is by no means certain what if any help might again come this way should we need it.
No criticism intended by that. And I have no problem in admiring the USA and all it -used - to stand for. In fact as a post WWII refugee from Europe I would have been an American and not an Australian now if your visa people had been 3 months faster back then. And I still think the words of the Declaration of Independence are some of the most beautiful crafted in the English language. Mind you I know Jefferson was a slave owner and he was probably talking about freedom etc for white male property owners.
Point is our PM is extremely conservative and so we now have federal financial grants to education in the various states and terroritories conditional on all schools having a flag pole and running the flag regularly. So we are taking steps in your direction.
We Australians have been rather less attached to the formal and open patriotism that you Americans seem to favour, but I believe we are no less patriotic for all that. In the end it is deeds that count.
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Posted by: Don on Jun 21, 2005 8:07 PM
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Interesting that this proposal reared its head once again at the very moment that the Downing Street memos started making headlines in the mainstream news. Smokescreen or not?
This amendment was first proposed as a reaction to a Supreme Court decision that ruled that destruction of a flag as a gesture of protest was a form of expression protected by the First Amendment.
What is being proposed is to amend the Constitution for the sole purpose of removing a legal right previously enumerated in the original Bill of Rights.
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Posted by: Here and now on Jun 21, 2005 10:06 PM
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You may not buy the first amendment argument, that is your opinion which you can freely express because of the first amendment, however burning the flag very much sends a message to anyone paying attention. The last time that I checked a message is a form of speech and thus covered by the first amendment right to freedom of speech. I suppose that you subscribe to a narrow view of freedom of speech as to why you do not buy the first amendment right argument. However, the 10th amendment: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people to me sounds like the 1st amendment does in fact cover freedom of speech because the constitution does not ban it nor do the states collectively. Further the 9th amendment: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people makes it clear to me that amendments are not meant to restrict the rights of the people as provided by the constitution. In fact I think that a constitutional case could be made that if such an amendment to the constitution were made, that it could be overturned just as prohibition was overturned because it is the deliberate restriction of the rights of the people.
See next comment part 2
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» RE: Jingoist for Jesus part I
Posted by: jingoist
» RE: Jingoist for Jesus part I
Posted by: Here and now
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Posted by: Here and now on Jun 21, 2005 10:10 PM
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Old Glory has just as much protection as any other item. The only reason anyone cares is because of the reverence and the worship that it receives. I am not going to give it more protection than any other graven image receives by way of the constitution. The flag represents many ideas to many people and that is well within their rights including yours, just don't shove your religious beliefs down my throat or anyone elses throat.
With that said, I just looked up the meaning of jingoism to see what it is that you peddle yourself as being since you have chosen to hide your identity behind it, just like a coward and cherry-picking bully that you are. Here we go...
Jingoism: Extreme nationalism characterized especially by a belligerent foreign policy; chauvinistic patriotism. Yep that sums you up pretty well by my estimation.
Oh I like this political definiton: Extreme and emotional nationalism, or chauvinism, often characterized by an aggressive foreign policy, accompanied by an eagerness to wage war.Yep that fits you like coward and cherry-picking bully that you are.
Oh how interesting, it is also a 'euphemism for "by Jesus,"'
Hope that sets you straight.
By the way Jesus is a Liberal. Feed the hungary, care for the sick, help the poor, pray for peace.
Lastly, do unto others as they would have you do unto them -- my version of the LOVE commandment.
Hey I'm blunt. It is my nature.
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Posted by: thesteelykid on Jun 22, 2005 6:58 AM
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» RE: God Hates Flags
Posted by: steveheeren
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Posted by: heliana on Jun 22, 2005 11:50 AM
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If you decide to worship it, that's fine by me, but I would prefer doing my own thing. That doesn't include defacing the flag, shredding it to bits of burning it. It also doesn't include praying to the flagpole or a bit of printed cloth either. I find that rather mechanical and non-spiritual.
So you go ahead and do what you want with your flag, but keep me out of it. You can't generalize feelings into uniformity with a law.
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Posted by: cafn8d on Jun 22, 2005 3:24 PM
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Posted by: ccbite on Jun 22, 2005 3:47 PM
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» RE: Hmmmmm ... I smell a rat
Posted by: Michiganman
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Posted by: wbritton on Jun 24, 2005 3:53 AM
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-When asked what the flag means to them, most Americans will immediately answer, “Freedom.” But since our history includes a long episode of slavery and the repression of various social and ethnic groups, does not the flag also connote these less palatable traces of national character? Indeed, it can be argued that for some Americans, the flag represents little more than social and economic marginalization.
-Once a flag becomes old and worn or stained, its proper disposal requires burning. How can the courts distinguish between these ceremonies and those initiated by citizens who view the country, and therefore the flag, as morally worn or stained, its courage turned cowardly, its purity violated, and its justice compromised? A nation must pay the price if it is to honor the concept of free expression.
-Flags are manufactured articles. They enter the stream of distribution not unlike other of capitalism’s goods and are then sold to consumers. Can rights of ownership be displaced by a prohibition against the destruction of a manufactured article by its legal owner? To claim that this nation owns the symbolic portion of a flag I have purchased for $24.88 at Wal-Mart flies in the face of logic. Although flag burning might lie at the fringes of individual liberty, its impact as a political statement will only be enhanced by its prohibition. A flag worth its salt as a national symbol should be made of better stuff and need not fear protest in any form, even if that means its occasional immolation.
-On most national holidays, I fly two flags: the national symbol and the Marine Corps globe and anchor. I love both symbols for different reasons, but they remain just that: symbols of my country and symbols of part of my personal history.
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Posted by: zeeartiste on Jun 24, 2005 5:14 PM
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Everyone who feels the flag isn't what it used to be, and also feel that it represents an america none of us agree with, hold flag burning parties.
Maybe, and I know this may be a stretch, if enough americans are seen burning "old glory" on the day we're supposed to be celebrating freedom, it may wake some people up.
IF enough people do it, and alert their local medias, I think it would make the most powerful statement for freedom, in a very long time.
Even if you're by yourself, call your newspaper and tell them you're burning the flag on the 4th in protest of the government, and our illusion of freedom.
Just a concept, but, a most powerful one, if carried out.
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Posted by: cmysticism on Jun 25, 2005 2:03 AM
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Though the flag, in and of itself, is not a religious symbol, the religiosity in which it's being protected against "defacement" by a proposed law goes against everything democracy stands for, and is indicative of religious worship. I'm not saying that all right-wing Christians support such a measure, but go into any Christian store catering to these people, and you will see U.S. flags and pro-American books with the flag on the front cover for sale. Evangelicals clearly see their religion and "Americanism" to be intertwined.
This proposal is also designed to legally endorse American vanity, and to criminalize anyone who believes that America should stand for democracy instead of "greatness."
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Posted by: dan10opa on Jun 25, 2005 12:14 PM
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Posted by: rosenmontag on Jun 25, 2005 4:53 PM
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Reforms brought about restrictions in liberty, but this was a small price to pay for security. Their "way of life" was threatened, consequently the enemies were clearly identified and eventually eliminated. "God is with us" on belt buckles of Army uniforms.
Overabundance of national flag (desecration verboten) and patriotic symbols encouraging and supporting the struggling country's efforts to be what it once was.
Pressure on all to unite, no toleration for dissent. Invasion of other countries necessary for national security.
Sieg Heil! (Holy Victory!)
Don't want to jump on the bandwagon of making Nazi comparisons...oops I guess I did! I've been living in Germany for some time now and observed how the people make enormous effort to avoid repeating history - amazingly resulting in attitudes and laws reflecting the ideas of the American Constitution.
Never wanted to burn the flag, but was sure damn proud to have the right to do it.
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Posted by: Stephen McArthur on Jun 25, 2005 8:19 PM
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They have nothing better to do than obsess on an issue like flag-burning. Most of them chickenhawks. Most of them heedless to the current and pressing need to provide our soldiers with better protection in Iraq. Most of them supporters of the Bush welfare programs for the rich and for tax-breaks to corporations. Most of them sinking this country into the largest deficit in our history. Most of them careless about our environment and the future health of our children.
But, by God, this witless majority has helped to protect America by fighting for a Constitutional Amendment banning flag-burning. These are the heroic members of Congress defending America.
Imagine that. Millions of pieces of red, white and blue cloth that are one of many symbols of this country threatened by waves of crazed liberals lighting matches. But have no fear, once this new Constitutional Amendment is in place, wingnut liberals can start burning copies of the Constitution itself in protest. And when they pass a Constitutional Amendment banning burning copies of the Constitution, enraged liberals can start burning copies of the Declaration of Independence in protest. And when they enact a Constitutional Amendment banning burning copies of the Declaration of Independence, traitorous liberals can start burning copies of the Republican platform. And the heroic members of Congress can fight on with more Amendments to the Constitution, defending life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
My father was a company commander (E Company, 66th Infantry, 71st Division) in France, Germany and Austria in WWII. The 71st, by the way, was the division that ended up liberating more concentration camps than any other. To make a long and very interesting story short, when my dad heard about the first flag burning amendment effort years ago, his comment to me was "My men died so that people in this country could burn the flag in protest."
As posted on http://orwellsgrave.blogspot com
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Posted by: Fogbelter on Jun 26, 2005 1:01 PM
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Posted by: outsidea on Jun 26, 2005 3:17 PM
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Posted by: Half Fast Skier on Jun 27, 2005 3:11 PM
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I point out that when one enlists or re-enlists in the military, one never is asked to defend, protect, or honor the flag. It's the Constitution, stupid!
The flag is nothing but a symbol. It's the Constitution that holds the power of the Nation and that's what the military swears to uphold...not the flag.
There is no way one can compare the flag and Constitution. The flag is a symbol, but the Constitution is a series of words arranged is such a manner that creates an Government.
regards
.
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Posted by: Katja144 on Jun 28, 2005 12:36 PM
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All of these people, more worried about a piece of cloth than about the people it represents.
You're not supposed to leave a flag unilluminated at night or out in foul weather, but it doesn't matter if people walk dangerous streets at night without proper lighting or live in cardboard boxes out in the elements.
You have to retire your flag with dignity, but Terri Schiavo was starved to death, along with all of the other people who meet sad, undignified, or violent ends.
You have to be careful about how you fly your flag--how its placement is in respect to other flags, how high on the pole it's flying--in other words,people worry more about who their flag is hanging out with than about who their kids are hanging out with.
It's a piece of cloth, people. "America" is an idea. Meanwhile all around are the people who made up this idea of America and nobody gives a shit about them.
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Posted by: the_honorable_edgar on Aug 31, 2005 10:05 PM
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He/she wrote: "I'm sure the thousands of people dying in Iraq will rest peacefully knowing the flag is more important than their lives."
Hm, apparently you're not aware of William Carney's story? The first black American to be awarded the Medal of Honor... willing to die before letting the flag touch the ground. What a bunch of fucking idiots you all are, really... all of you... I don't care if you're liberal, conservative, whatever... the flag should be proudly waved by all Americans.
If Carney was willing to die for it in a time when racism and bigotry were rampant against our black citizens, why aren't any of you willing to AT LEAST wave it? Morons.
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