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Stripping Rumsfeld and Bush of Impunity

By Matthew Rothschild, The Progressive. Posted May 31, 2005.


Two respected human rights groups say there is prima facie evidence against Donald Rumsfeld and George W. Bush for war crimes and torture -- and they're asking foreign governments to do something about it.

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When Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee last year, he was asked whether he "ordered or approved the use of sleep deprivation, intimidation by guard dogs, excessive noise, and inducing fear as an interrogation method for a prisoner in Abu Ghraib prison."

Sanchez, who was head of the Pentagon's Combined Joint Task Force-7 in Iraq, swore the answer was no. Under oath, he told the Senators he "never approved any of those measures to be used."

But a document the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) obtained from the Pentagon flat out contradicts Sanchez's testimony. It's a memorandum entitled "CJTF-7 Interrogation and Counter-Resistance Policy," dated September 14, 2003. In it, Sanchez approved several methods designed for "significantly increasing the fear level in a detainee." These included "sleep management"; "yelling, loud music, and light control: used to create fear, disorient detainee, and prolong capture shock"; and "presence of military working dogs: exploits Arab fear of dogs."

On March 30, the ACLU wrote a letter to Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, urging him "to open an investigation into whether General Ricardo A. Sanchez committed perjury in his sworn testimony."

The problem is, Gonzales may himself have committed perjury in his Congressional testimony this January.

According to a March 6 article in The New York Times, Gonzales submitted written testimony that said: "The policy of the United States is not to transfer individuals to countries where we believe they likely will be tortured, whether those individuals are being transferred from inside or outside the United States." He added that he was "not aware of anyone in the executive branch authorizing any transfer of a detainee in violation of that policy."

"That's a clear, absolute lie," says Michael Ratner, executive director of the Center for Constitutional Rights, who is suing Administration officials for their involvement in the torture scandal. "The Administration has a policy of sending people to countries where there is a likelihood that they will be tortured."

The New York Times article backs up Ratner's claim. It says "a still-classified directive signed by President Bush within days of the September 11 attacks" gave the CIA broad authority to transfer suspected terrorists to foreign countries for interrogations. Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International estimate that the United States has transferred between 100 and 150 detainees to countries notorious for torture.

So Gonzales may not be the best person to evaluate the allegation of perjury against Sanchez.

But going after Sanchez or Gonzales for perjury is the least of it. Sanchez may be personally culpable for war crimes and torture, according to Human Rights Watch. And Gonzales himself was one of the legal architects of the torture policies. As such, he may have been involved in "a conspiracy to immunize U.S. agents from criminal liability for torture and war crimes under U.S. law," according to Amnesty International's recent report: "Guantánamo and Beyond: The Continuing Pursuit of Unchecked Executive Power."

As White House Counsel, Gonzales advised President Bush to not apply Geneva Convention protections to detainees captured in Afghanistan, in part because this "substantially reduces the threat of domestic criminal prosecution under the War Crimes Act," Gonzales wrote in his January 25, 2002, memo to the President.

Gonzales's press office refused to provide comment after several requests from The Progressive. In his Senate confirmation testimony, Gonzales said, "I want to make very clear that I am deeply committed to the rule of law. I have a deep and abiding commitment to the fundamental American principle that we are a nation of laws, and not of men."

Pentagon spokesperson Lieutenant Colonel John Skinner says the ACLU's suggestion that Sanchez committed perjury is "absolutely ridiculous." In addition, Skinner pointed to a recent Army inspector general report that looked into Sanchez's role. "Every senior-officer allegation was formally investigated," the Army said in a May 5 summary. Sanchez was investigated, it said, for "dereliction in the performance of duties pertaining to detention and interrogation operations" and for "improperly communicating interrogation policies." The inspector general "found each of the allegations unsubstantiated."

The Bush Administration's legal troubles don't end with Sanchez or Gonzales. They go right to the top: to Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and President Bush himself. Both Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International USA say there is "prima facie" evidence against Rumsfeld for war crimes and torture. And Amnesty International USA says there is also "prima facie" evidence against Bush for war crimes and torture. (According to Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary, "prima facie evidence" is "evidence sufficient to establish a fact or to raise a presumption of fact unless rebutted.")

Amnesty International USA has even taken the extraordinary step of calling on officials in other countries to apprehend Bush and Rumsfeld and other high-ranking members of the Administration who have played a part in the torture scandal.

Foreign governments should "uphold their obligations under international law by investigating U.S. officials implicated in the development or implementation of interrogation techniques that constitute torture or cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment," the group said in a May 25 statement. William Schulz, executive director of Amnesty International USA, added, "If the United States permits the architects of torture policy to get off scot-free, then other nations will be compelled" to take action.

The Geneva Conventions and the torture treaty "place a legally binding obligation on states that have ratified them to exercise universal jurisdiction over persons accused of grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions," Amnesty International USA said. "If anyone suspected of involvement in the U.S. torture scandal visits or transits through foreign territories, governments could take legal steps to ensure that such individuals are investigated and charged with applicable crimes."

When these two leading human rights organizations make such bold claims about the President and the Secretary of Defense, we need to take the question of executive criminality seriously.

And we have to ask ourselves, where is the accountability? Who has the authority to ascertain whether these high officials committed war crimes and torture, and if they did, to bring them to justice?

The independent counsel law is no longer on the books, so that can't be relied on. Attorney General Gonzales is not about to investigate himself, Rumsfeld, or his boss. And Republicans who control Congress have shown no interest in pursuing the torture scandal, much less drawing up bills of impeachment.

Amnesty International USA, Human Rights Watch, the Center for Constitutional Rights, the ACLU, the American Bar Association, and Human Rights First (formerly known as the Lawyers Committee for Human Rights) have joined in a call for a special prosecutor. But that decision is up to Gonzales and ultimately Bush.

"It's a complete joke" to expect Gonzales to appoint a special prosecutor, concedes Ratner of the Center for Constitutional Rights.

John Sifton, Afghanistan specialist and military affairs researcher for Human Rights Watch, is not so sure. "Do I think this would happen right now? No," he says. "But in the middle of the Watergate scandal, very few people thought the President would resign." If more information comes out, and if the American public demands an investigation, and if there is a change in the control of the Senate, Sifton believes Gonzales may end up with little choice.

Human Rights Watch and other groups are also calling for Congress to appoint an independent commission, similar to the 9/11 one, to investigate the torture scandal.

"Unless a special counsel or an independent commission are named, and those who designed or authorized the illegal policies are held to account, all the protestations of 'disgust' at the Abu Ghraib photos by President George W. Bush and others will be meaningless," concludes Human Rights Watch's April report "Getting Away with Torture? Command Responsibility for the U.S. Abuse of Detainees."

But even as it denounces the "substantial impunity that has prevailed until now," Human Rights Watch is not sanguine about the likelihood of such inquiries. "There are obviously steep political obstacles in the way of investigating a sitting Defense Secretary," it notes in its report.

By not pursuing senior officials who may have been involved in ordering war crimes or torture, the United States may be further violating international law, according to Human Rights Watch. "Each State Party shall ensure that its competent authorities proceed to a prompt and impartial investigation, whenever there is reasonable ground to believe that an act of torture has been committed in any territory under its jurisdiction," says the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. The Geneva Conventions have a similar requirement.

Stymied by the obstacles along the customary routes of accountability, the ACLU and Human Rights First are suing Rumsfeld in civil court on behalf of plaintiffs who have been victims of torture. The Center for Constitutional Rights is suing on behalf of a separate group of clients. The center also filed a criminal complaint in Germany against Rumsfeld and Gonzales, along with nine others. The center argued that Germany was "a court of last resort," since "the U.S. government is not willing to open an investigation into these allegations against these officials." The case was dismissed.

Amnesty International's call for foreign countries to nab Rumsfeld and Bush also seems unlikely to be heeded any time soon. How, physically, could another country arrest Bush, for instance? And which country would want to face the wrath of Washington for doing so?

But that we have come this far--where the only option for justice available seems to be to rely on officials of other governments to apprehend our own--is a damning indictment in and of itself.

The case against Rumsfeld may be the most substantial of all. While "expressing no opinion about the ultimate guilt or innocence" of Rumsfeld, Human Rights Watch is urging his prosecution under the War Crimes Act of 1996 and the Anti-Torture Act of 1996. Under these statutes, a "war crime" is any "grave breach" of common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions, which prohibits "outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment," as well as torture and murder. A "grave breach," according to U.S. law, includes "willful killing, torture, or inhuman treatment of prisoners of war and of other 'protected persons,' " Human Rights Watch explains in "Getting Away with Torture?"

Rumsfeld faces jeopardy for being head of the Defense Department when those directly under him committed grave offenses. And he may be liable for actions he himself undertook.

"Secretary Rumsfeld may bear legal liability for war crimes and torture by U.S. troops in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Guantánamo under the doctrine of 'command responsibility'--the legal principle that holds a superior responsible for crimes committed by his subordinates when he knew or should have known that they were being committed but fails to take reasonable measures to stop them," Human Rights Watch says in its report.

But Rumsfeld's potential liability may be more direct than simply being the guy in charge who didn't stop the torture and mistreatment once he learned about it.

First of all, when the initial reports of prisoner mistreatment came in, he mocked the concerns of human rights groups as "isolated pockets of international hyperventilation." He also asserted that "unlawful combatants do not have any rights under the Geneva Convention," even though, as Human Rights Watch argues, "the Geneva Conventions provide explicit protections to all persons captured in an international armed conflict, even if they are not entitled to POW status."

Secondly, he himself issued a list of permissible interrogation techniques in a December 2, 2002, directive that likely violated the Geneva Conventions, according to Human Rights Watch. Among those techniques: "The use of stress positions (like standing) for a maximum of four hours." On the directive, Rumsfeld, incidentally, added in his own handwriting next to this technique: "However, I stand for 8-10 hours a day. Why is standing limited to 4 hours?" He also included the following techniques: "removal of all comfort items (including religious items)," "deprivation of light and auditory stimuli," "isolation up to 30 days," and "using detainees' individual phobias (such as fear of dogs) to induce stress."

On January 15, 2003, Rumsfeld rescinded this directive after the Navy registered its adamant objections. If, during the six weeks that Rumsfeld's techniques were official Pentagon policy at Guantánamo, soldiers mistreated or tortured prisoners using his approved techniques, then "Rumsfeld could potentially bear direct criminal responsibility, as opposed to command responsibility," says Human Rights Watch.

Rumsfeld may also bear direct responsibility for the torture or abuse of two other prisoners, says Human Rights Watch, citing the Church Report. (This report, one of Rumsfeld's many internal investigations, was conducted by the Navy Inspector General Vice Admiral Albert Church.) "The Secretary of Defense approved specific interrogation plans for two 'high-value detainees' " at Guantánamo, the Church Report noted. Those plans, it added, "employed several of the counter resistance techniques found in the December 2, 2002, [policy]. . . . These interrogations were sufficiently aggressive that they highlighted the difficult question of precisely defining the boundaries of humane treatment of detainees."

And Rumsfeld may be in legal trouble for hiding detainees from the Red Cross. "Secretary Rumsfeld has publicly admitted that . . . he ordered an Iraqi national held in Camp Cropper, a high security detention center in Iraq, to be kept off the prison's rolls and not presented to the International Committee of the Red Cross," Human Rights Watch notes. This prisoner, according to The New York Times, was kept off the books for at least seven months.

The Geneva Conventions require countries to grant access to the Red Cross to all detainees, wherever they are being held. As Human Rights Watch explains, "Visits may only be prohibited for'reasons of imperative military necessity' and then only as'an exceptional and temporary measure.'"

The last potential legal problem for Rumsfeld is his alleged involvement in creating a "secret access program," or SAP. According to reporter Seymour Hersh, Rumsfeld "authorized the establishment of a highly secret program that was given blanket advance approval to kill or capture and, if possible, interrogate 'high value' targets in the war on terror." Human Rights Watch says that "if Secretary Rumsfeld did, in fact, approve such a program, he would bear direct liability, as opposed to command responsibility, for war crimes and torture committed by the SAP."

The Pentagon vehemently denies the allegation that Rumsfeld may have committed war crimes. "It's absurd," says Pentagon spokesperson Lieutenant Colonel Skinner. "The facts speak for themselves. We have aggressively investigated all allegations of detainee mistreatment. We have had ten major investigations on everything from A to Z. We've also had more than 350 criminal investigations looking into detainee abuse. More than 103 individuals have been held accountable for actions related to detainee mistreatment. Our policy has always been, and will always remain, the humane treatment of detainees."

What about Bush? If Donald Rumsfeld can be charged for war crimes because of his command responsibility and his personal involvement in giving orders, why can't the commander in chief? Hina Shansi, senior counsel at Human Rights First, believes the case against Bush is much more difficult to document. And Sifton of Human Rights Watch says that since Bush is known as "a major delegator," it may be hard to pin down "what he's briefed on and what role he plays in the decision-making process."

Amnesty International USA, however, believes that Bush, by his own involvement in formulating policy on torture, may have committed war crimes. "It's the memos, the meetings, the public statements," says Alistair Hodgett, media director of Amnesty International USA.

There is "prima facie evidence that senior members of the U.S. Administration, including President Bush and Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld, have authorized human rights violations, including 'disappearances and torture or other cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment,' " Amnesty states in "Guantánamo and Beyond."

The first solid piece of evidence against Bush is his September 17, 2001, "Memorandum of Notification" that unleashed the CIA. According to Bob Woodward's book Bush at War, that memo "authorized the CIA to operate freely and fully in Afghanistan with its own paramilitary teams" and to go after Al Qaeda "on a worldwide scale, using lethal covert action to keep the role of the United States hidden."

Two days before at Camp David, then-CIA Director George Tenet had outlined some of the additional powers he wanted, Woodward writes. These included the power to " 'buy' key intelligence services. . . . Several intelligence services were listed: Egypt, Jordan, Algeria. Acting as surrogates for the United States, these services could triple or quadruple the CIA's resources." According to Woodward, Tenet was upfront with Bush about the risks entailed: "It would put the United States in league with questionable intelligence services, some of them with dreadful human rights records. Some had reputations for ruthlessness and using torture to obtain confessions. Tenet acknowledged that these were not people you were likely to be sitting next to in church on Sunday. Look, I don't control these guys all the time, he said. Bush said he understood the risks."

That this was Administration policy is clear from comments Vice President Dick Cheney made on Meet the Press the very next day.

"We also have to work, though, sort of the dark side, if you will," Cheney told Tim Russert. "We've got to spend time in the shadows in the intelligence world. A lot of what needs to be done here will have to be done quietly, without any discussion, using sources and methods that are available to our intelligence agencies, if we're going to be successful. That's the world these folks operate in, and so it's going to be vital for us to use any means at our disposal, basically, to achieve our objective."

If, as The New York Times reported, Bush authorized the transfer of detainees to countries where torture is routine, he appears to be in grave breach of international law.

Article 3 of the Convention Against Torture explicitly prohibits this: "No State Party shall expel, return, or extradite a person to another State where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture." Article 49 of the Geneva Conventions is also clear: "Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive."

On February 7, 2002, Bush issued another self-incriminating memorandum. This one was to the Vice President, the Secretary of State, the Secretary of Defense, the Attorney General, the Director of the CIA, the National Security Adviser, and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. It was entitled "Humane Treatment of Al Qaeda and Taliban Detainees." In it, Bush asserted that "none of the provisions of Geneva apply to our conflict with Al Qaeda in Afghanistan or elsewhere throughout the world." He also declared, "I have the authority under the Constitution to suspend Geneva as between the United States and Afghanistan," though he declined to do so. And he said that "common Article 3 of Geneva does not apply to either Al Qaeda or Taliban."

This memo "set the stage for the tragic abuse of detainees," says William Schulz, executive director of Amnesty International USA.

Bush failed to recognize that the Geneva Conventions provide universal protections. "The Conventions and customary law still provide explicit protections to all persons held in an armed conflict," Human Rights Watch says in its report, citing the "fundamental guarantees" in Article 75 of Protocol I of 1977 to the Geneva Conventions. That article prohibits "torture of all kinds, whether physical or mental," "corporal punishment," and "outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment."

In the February 7, 2002, memo, Bush tried to give himself cover by stating that "our values as a Nation, values that we share with many nations in the world, call for us to treat detainees humanely, including those who are not entitled to such treatment." He added that the United States, "to the extent appropriate and consistent with military necessity," would abide by the principles of the Geneva Conventions.

But this only made matters worse. His assertion that there are some detainees who are not entitled to be treated humanely is an affront to international law, as is his claim that the Geneva Conventions can be made subordinate to military necessity.

The Geneva Conventions, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and the Convention Against Torture all prohibit the torture and abuse that the United States has been inflicting on detainees. Article 2 of the Convention Against Torture states that "no exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture."

Article VI of the Constitution makes treaties "the supreme law of the land," and the President swears an oath to see that the laws are faithfully executed.

As more information comes out, the case against Bush could get even stronger, says Sifton of Human Rights Watch. If, for instance, Bush said at Camp David on September 15, 2001, or at another meeting, "Take the gloves off," or something to that effect, he would be even more implicated. "Obviously, if he did make such an explicit order, his complicity would be shown," says Sifton. Somehow, that message was conveyed down the line. "There was a before-9/11 and an after-9/11," Cofer Black, who was director of the CIA's counterterrorist unit, told Congress in 2002. "After 9/11, the gloves came off."

The White House press office refused to return five phone calls from The Progressive seeking comment about the allegations against Bush. At his daily press briefing on May 25, the President's Press Secretary Scott McClellan was not asked specifically about Bush's culpability but about Amnesty International's general charge that the United States is a chief offender of human rights.

"The allegations are ridiculous and unsupported by the facts," McClellan said. "The United States is leading the way when it comes to protecting human rights and promoting human dignity. We have liberated fifty million people in Iraq and Afghanistan. . . . We're also leading the way when it comes to spreading compassion."

Amnesty International USA does not intend to back off. "Our call is for the United States to step up to its responsibilities and investigate these matters first," Executive Director Schulz says. "And if that doesn't happen, then indeed, we are calling upon foreign governments to take on their responsibility and to investigate the apparent architects of torture."

Inquiries to the embassies of Belgium, Chile, France, Germany, South Africa, and Venezuela, as well as to the government of Canada, while met with some amusement, did not reveal any inclination to heed Amnesty's call.

Schulz is not deterred. Acknowledging that the possibility of a foreign government seizing Rumsfeld or Bush might not be "an immediate reality," Schulz takes the long view: "Let's keep in mind, there are no statutes of limitations here."

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Matthew Rothschild is the editor of The Progressive.

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An accountability moment
Posted by: dennyduke@earthlink.net on May 31, 2005 1:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I couldn't agree more that these gangsters deserve to be prosecuted. Also that the chances of that happening are remote, to say the least.

What we need to do is take advantage of the midterm election lull, as follows:

Activate the non-voting majority with a radical program for re-installing Constitutional government, enabling all the promises in the Preamble, not just "defence", as these hoods claim to be the only legitimate use of government (I highly reccommend reading this document. It shows what liars Scalia & Co are).

Get them motivated to register and vote. Run Independent candidates against all 435 Representatives and 33 (or 34) Seators running for re-election in 2006.

With a large majority in the House and also in the Senate with the remaining Democrats, we can impeach co-fuhrers Bush and Cheney, as well as the Gang of Five who subverted the rights of Florida's voters.

This will make a newly elected Speaker of the House President, with majorities in both houses of congress. Then we can arrest and prosecute all of these thugs and send them to Guantanamo as enemy combatants.

At which point we will be free to address issues important to Americans, such as making sure everyone has enough to eat, shelter, health care, and so on.

Sounds pretty ambitious, doesn't it? What the dickens do we have to lose?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: An accountability moment Posted by: brasilaron
» RE: An accountability moment Posted by: dennyduke@earthlink.net
» RE: An accountability moment Posted by: Farbanti
» RE: An accountability moment Posted by: markitup137
» RE: An accountability moment Posted by: dennyduke@earthlink.net
War crimes
Posted by: kgs1947 on May 31, 2005 4:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How can I help to get this information before the public? How can an individual, like me, make a difference.? How will these men ever get to the the court of justice?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: War crimes Posted by: Sandra
» RE: War crimes Posted by: royrogers
» RE: War crimes Posted by: royrogers
» RE: War crimes Posted by: royrogers
» RE: War crimes Posted by: monkeywrench
» RE: War crimes; "How can I help?" Posted by: dennyduke@earthlink.net
Enemy combatants?
Posted by: WhatNow? on May 31, 2005 5:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The term enemy combatants worried me the first time I heard it. Everywhere Bush proclaimed a War on Terror and these prisoners were considered to be terrorists. In my mind this leeds me to the logical deduction that they are POWs. They should be provided with all the rights entailed within the Geneva Convention.

Sadly I believe our "leaders" (term used loosely) are war criminals. The world had to US to fight against and later try the german war criminals of the last century. What happens now when the righteous and mighty are now the villians?

At this point it appears unlikely these lunatics will ever be held responsible for their actions but you never know. I am very proud and very glad somebody is trying to stop these cruel bastards from continuing their practices.

The worst thing of all is the two countries that could possibly hold these people (Russia and China - I don't think there's many in the US that would really want to tangle with them.) do not have a good record of human rights either.

This country may have to sink so low ,whereas something akin to the French Revolution occurs, to ever get rid of this imperialist regime we now have in Washington.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» The French Revolution? Posted by: Lloyd Drako
» RE: The French Revolution? Posted by: WhatNow?
» Is the Glass Half Full? Posted by: BriMan
» RE: Is the Glass Half Full? Posted by: mendomama
» RE: Is the Glass Half Full? Posted by: BriMan
The 9-11 Terrorists are Winning
Posted by: zoza on May 31, 2005 5:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The 9-11 terrorists set out to disrupt our world. They have been successful. This is not the same country. Our leaders have used that terrible day as a means to impose their insanity on the rest of the world. The world was at our feet on 9-12 and now they look at us with disgust.
The only means of gaining back any respect in the world is to show the rest of the world that the American people will not stand for this type of behavior and throw these right wing zealots into the gutter where they belong. They do not represent the majority of our country and the time for revolution is now. It's time to take to the streets. That is the only way the main-stream media will ever bring this to the attention of those who are not paying attention.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: The 9-11 Terrorists are Winning Posted by: dennyduke@earthlink.net
» RE: The 9-11 Terrorists are Winning Posted by: dennyduke@earthlink.net
Michel Boucher
Posted by: alsandor on May 31, 2005 7:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Deny as they might, it has now been clearly established that at the very least Colin Powell knew that a Canadian citizen, Maher Arar, had been arrested in transit through the US and deported to Syria where it was known he would be tortured.

Powell maintained the decision to deport Arar was taken in Canada. However it is fairly clear that it was the US government that decided to deport Arar without benefit of a hearing.

Requests for information from our minister were treated with scorn. It appears now that others were deported to Syria for torture and that these people are coming forth to testify.

Interested parties may wish to peruse the transcripts of the inquiry with which neither the US nor the Syrian governments will be collaborating.

http://www.ararcommission.ca/eng/

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BubbaTJ
Posted by: BubbaTJ on May 31, 2005 8:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm not sure any of these people (Bush, Rumsfield, etc.) even know what the Constitution or the Bill of Rights are. I wish someone, at a news conference or at one of these debates, would ask Bush a question (like, name all the rights in the Bill of Rights). I mean, they swore an oath to uphold the Constitution, and I wonder if they even know what it is they have sworn to uphold?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: BubbaTJ Posted by: dennyduke@earthlink.net
» RE: BubbaTJ Posted by: windy
» RE: BubbaTJ Posted by: WomanforPeace/Sanity
» RE: BubbaTJ - Sleazy Coyotes Posted by: dennyduke@earthlink.net
» RE: BubbaTJ Posted by: brasilaron
Now or Never
Posted by: Free_Soul on May 31, 2005 10:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is the time where American History gets defined. We are at a dangerous crossroads where changes that this regime is trying to implement can effect this country indefinitly. Enough damage has already been done.

Perhaps it's time for a 3rd party to emerge such as i.e: 'Union of Working Class Families Party.' We the people need to show our government that we are part of our governing system and any person that tries to turn a Presidency into an abitrary power needs to be removed from office, as we did to Nixon. Our Founding Fathers are surely spinning in their graves.

What George Bush and Co.(horts) have done has been out in the open, permeated by their sheer, smug arrogance that they can do whatever they please because they are the government. Only slightly more than half of Americans bought into their system so the rest of us who do care to know and understand what is really going on just have to get with his program in a 'like it or lump it' mode. Not so different when he announced to the world that "whoever is not for him is against him". Only we did not realize that he was also addressing you and I as well.
Bush does not think that the American people have it in them to stand in against him. We have allowed highly questionable voting processes the past 2 Presidential elections. He has been allowed to trample on our civil rights. He was allowed to get us into a highly questionable war with no accountability when Bush & Gang all publicly lied to us when they were all quoted as saying, "The reason why we going to invade Iraq is because we know they have WMD. He was allowed to get away with the blatant conflict of interest when Halliburton & Co. was handed a no-bid open ended contract by Cheney in a sheer act nepotism. Cheney is on their payroll collecting severance pay. The richest people have received the largest tax breaks, while he thumbs his nose at the working class families. Rising healthcare costs. Bush continues to erode the boundaries of separation of Church and State laws. We receive cenosored/filtered mainstream news. Failing economy, cuts in education & the continuance of the outsourcing of jobs. Now we face government mandated I.D. cards.

History will be changed and altered by everyday people like you and me. Time to take stand, now or never. Either we fight for a true democracy or fall prey to the autocrats of a tolitarian government.

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» RE: Now or Never: A new party Posted by: dennyduke@earthlink.net
spread the net wider
Posted by: galbi on May 31, 2005 11:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We do not want to envision Pres. Cheney or even Pres. Hastert. A wider net should fill in all the planners and facilitators, most of them were involved in the 70's work on into the 80's and 90's
in Central America: starting with Kissinger, and including Abrams,
Wolfewitz, etc. all involved in one
grand reaching plot to control other countries and their resources.
This all can be done by using the
government's favorite strategy:
CONSPIRACY. There is no statute
of limitations on that either, if you
can get them on the other points.

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New "Teflon King"
Posted by: mrsmagoo on May 31, 2005 12:17 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Heck, Dubya should be crowned our new "Teflon King"! Nothing sticks to him. Ronald "Raygun" has nothing on this guy. This administration has managed to get out of every controversy they created. We, the drones, will continue to get dumber and dumber while the King and his empire will continue to exploit and use us for their rich reward (which will definately NOT be in heaven)! God help us all.

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Mississippi@earthlink.net
Posted by: Anna on May 31, 2005 12:20 PM   
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In our San Francisco Çhronicle News Paper this Sunday, May 29th and article appeared in the 'world' section on an inquiry into a 'Canadian citizen that the U.S. sent to Syria. The man was an Arab, Maher Arara, arrested as he changed planes in New York accused of terrorist connections, even though there was no proof of this. He was sent to Syria where torture is commonplace. The article states, "The reason the U.S. sent Mr. Arar to Syria and not Canada is that Syria torures people and Canada does not." In his native Syria he was tortured,beaten with cables and detained and held for 10 months in a tiny cell. Since this case has become a central example for human rights advocates, I realize you are probably aware of this but what can we do to make our FBI, CIA, and other security official, not to mention our president and Mr. Ashcroft who said he received assurances from the Syrian Govt that there would be no torture.....yeah right......Ashcroft knew that Syria is notorious for prisoner abuse and torture. This has got to stop!

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Who Would Jesus Torture?
Posted by: surfreality on May 31, 2005 12:39 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We live in Orwellian times. We are told Bush won reelection because religious conservatives agreed with the republican view of morality. This same view on morality allowed republicans to parlay a lie about oral sex into an impeachment trial of a sitting President. Their point at the time was "He lied." The "Blaire memo" story now reveals that Bush and his ilk cooked the intelligance on Iraqi weapons of mass destruction to justify a war that the public otherwise would not have supported. We also now learn that senior members of the administration have lied under oath about our policies towards prisonors in Afganistan, Iraq and Cuba. We have learned that these moral republicans tried to redefine "torture" to exclude any treatment that isn't fatal or life threatening. They said we are not bound by the Geneva convention. The Pentagon knew about Abu Ghraib for over a year before the guards e-mails and photos were leaked to the press. To date no one has been held accountable for the policies that led to those abuses. The only people taking the fall are overworked, undertrained and undermanned young national guardsmen. Where is the right wing evangelical call to arms to defend morality against torture and lies? Their silence on this makes their view on morality highly suspect. The democrats in congress are worse than useless. Someone in the loyal opposition needs to step up to the plate and start demanding accountability. When will a politician with a back bone finally show up? Who out there has the balls to take on "the power"?

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Accountability is a "Four-Letter Word" to Bush
Posted by: Jammer2 on May 31, 2005 12:48 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are talking about a man that has never been held accountable for anything in his life. He has the smile, he has the charm, he has the best public relations people working for him; and the people of America will always vote the best looking candidate into office including those with the intelligence of a grapefruit.

He has abused everybody and everything within his purview all of his life! And why shouldn't he? Daddy was the "King of the CIA" and had the dirt on every politician in the country. So Dad's coked-out alcoholic sonny boy comes along and carries on the tradition by aligning himself with all of Daddy's old cronies. He and this pack of wealthy street thugs has taken America hostage, and nobody has had the balls to stand up to him until just recently.

When the history of the former Unites States of America is written, we can all look back and say, 'Damn, I just can't believe this happened!' It's a sick world that we live in, and these are the kind of people that make it fatal for the average citizen.

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shebear
Posted by: shebear on May 31, 2005 12:52 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is now coming out that Aspartame is causing blindness and death in the mainstream. This was known back before it got FDA approval. Donald Rumsfeld was the CEO of the company that made nutri-sweet and pulled his political strings to get it approved. Ronald Reagan, the day after he took office, fired the head of the FDA and put in their puppet, who went over the head of the scientist who knew that aspartame caused 92 serious side effects, and approved a known neuotoxin. Now it is in the food supply, in at least 6000 products. This is torture to those who are affected by it. Why does the ACLU or Amnesty International, not go after him for this CRIME? People all over the world are effected by this poison. http://dorway.com has all the documentation to put him in jail forever, but they need people with a voice.

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» RE: shebear Posted by: markitup137
Defeated War Criminals
Posted by: pjrsullivan on May 31, 2005 1:03 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Usually, only those defeated nations in war, send their leaders up on War Crimes charges. Pinochet was captured by time.
Our current crop of long term war criminals have survived in the immunity of the apparently non-defeated nation of America. This is absolutely false! America, the home of the Star Spangled bomb droppers, has, believe it or not, been soundly defeated.

The victors in this instance are the group that we call the Extraterrestrials. You see, the plan from the beginning was to immolate the human race with nuclear weapons, ET stepped in, and in the strangest defeat ever recorded in history, has soundly defeated the Wall Street War Criminals, and their partners in atrocity, the upstanding International Members of the Merchant Murder class

Our war crime committing leadership has repeatedly tried to pull the pin, and always some technical reason has intervened. US Airforce General Grant, who was in the loop during the Reagan administration said that we would of all been destroyed in a nuclear war already except for acts of "Divine Intervention." You may recall that the war criminal Reagan placed pershing missiles in Europe, to trigger World War III. ET says no, and the war criminals can't get it up, even with such a stud on board as Rumsfeld.

Once the mass of the population becomes aware that this band of baby killers have alrwady sttempted to destroy them, and that ET has defeated them, dum dum de dum, dum de dum de dum de dum.

You won't find it with a google search, yet if you use the yahoo search engine, put this in, Disaster at Silo 7 Revisited.

This was but one attempt to launch a nuclear triggering device on our heads that happened in September 1980.

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Why does Israel spy against America?
Posted by: apodapa on May 31, 2005 2:24 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If anyone besides those of us who applaud Matthew Rothchild for writing a great piece think that there's a snow balls chance in the Occupied Palestinian Territories for the Bush Mafia going down for war crimes, please, get your head examined. Yeah, what I'm saying is that American consciousness barely gives notice to U.S. support of it's 51st state comitting atrocities and war crimes with all of the billions of dollars of free money and military suppies provided to them by John and Jane Taxpayer. With every U.S. politicians blessing (and with AIPAC's gun at their back) Israel has been doing for years in brutal offense of it's much over simplified claim of "it's right to exist" what the U.S. is doing in the name of spreading democracy. Maybe when Americans figure out that the Israeli oppression of Palestine is the same as the Iraq war, and vice versa, and that we are essentially warring in Iraq because Saddam was a sworn enemy of Israel, well, maybe then things will change. Until then expect more freedom to march hand in hand with Israel expansion into the territories.

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Bush Openly Condoned Murder
Posted by: time4change on May 31, 2005 3:17 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"More than 3,000 suspected terrorists have been arrested in many countries. Many others have met a different fate. Put it this way, they're no longer a problem to the United States and our friends and allies."

– George W. Bush, State of the Union address, February 4, 2003

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» RE: Bush Openly Condoned Murder Posted by: markitup137
» RE: Bush Openly Condoned Murder Posted by: dennyduke@earthlink.net
» RE: Bush Openly Condoned Murder Posted by: markitup137
» RE: Bush Openly Condoned Murder Posted by: gopbarfbag
Fat Chance
Posted by: paschn@comcast.net on May 31, 2005 3:17 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That Simpering, whining, murderous swine will be protected to the last fool waving the American [ swastika ] Flag until people like you can unite the world to rid us of not only him and all his cabinet, but that foul little nation we've been bred to protect like a mindless attack dog, Isreal. I REFUSE to follow the mindless drivel of the American Sheeple's "my country right or wrong" mantra. they allowed that pig to steal the first election,...they gave him another 4 years to torture and murder. they now must share in the consequences for their idiocy and sheep like mentality. The murderous pig and all others responsible for the MURDER of innocent people MUST be made to answer by ANY means the world deems neccessary. And then to assure big business will never again suffer itself upon the world, there MUST be international laws put in place to control those evil mongrels as well. Of the 50 states in this Evil Empire, there must be SOME with leaders disgusted and horrified enough to put a stop to it with out civil war! If, as a whole it's deemed too powerful to control, then let these states with a conscience leave the union. Maybe it's time this Evil Empire is dismantled?

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» great idea, civil war! Posted by: markitup137
» RE: why would we support the palestinians Posted by: dennyduke@earthlink.net
» RE: great idea, civil war! Posted by: apodapa
» RE: great idea, civil war! Posted by: dennyduke@earthlink.net
» RE: great idea, civil war! Posted by: dennyduke@earthlink.net
HEADS UP
Posted by: rudyaub on May 31, 2005 4:10 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'd just like everyone to know that in the face of a Republic that does not represent ME, I am left with no choice but to represent myself.
I plan on running for president in 2008 and am currently organizing a new political party, called the American Party.
Please go to www.rudyshomepage.com/topten.htm and bookmark it, as I will be posting news and information there regularly. There's already tons of information there, enjoy.
If you'd like to know more about where I stand, please pick up a copy of my book, Dear America, which is for sale exclusively on www.bidrevolution.com
It details pretty much everything I have to say about every single issue we face, especially REAL issues that you'll never hear a corporate politician talk about, since it's his job to distract you from the real issues.
There's enough of us now to make a change. It can be done. It doesn't cost money, we just have to start focusing on what unites us rather than divides us, like obscenely high taxes, lack of representation, propaganda in the media, etc.

Let's do it.

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The Investigation of Bush & Rumsfeld
Posted by: marrieah on May 31, 2005 5:46 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When has a fox ever investigated a fox about the terrible things done to the chickens in the henhouse. And since there is no longer a special investgater, one can't help but wonder if that was the whole reason behind the 'find anything you can on Clinton, even if you have to go into his toilet to find it' scandal. We no longer have a special prosecutor, even though Bush and Rumsfeld and their group of merry men have been wreaking havoc everywhere. Even the news media in certain sectors have been have had their credibility put in check, not because the story was wrong, but because someone didn't dot an 'i' or forgot to cross a 't'
however, Bush and company can lie like a tordado during it's worst and no one challange them. Go figure.

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back to the article...
Posted by: markitup137 on May 31, 2005 7:10 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
one pretext of this article is sleep deprivation, intimidation by guard dogs, excessive noise, and inducing fear as an interrogation method is toture and is therefor prohibited. while each of these methods is very unpleasant, none of them do any real damage to the prisoner (maybe some bad dreams, i don't know). there's a no shit life or death battle out there and many of these people have info that can be used to save lives (not just american lives, but the lives of iraqi's and even insurgents in some cases). so if it's not really hurting them, why not do those things? ive personally had to go through interrogations involving each of the techniques listed above (as well as others such as waterboard which is a way to simulate the feeling of drowning) and im here to tell you it's not fun, but it ends and life goes on. the army has actually banned these techniques because of so many people crying foul play. personally i don't think it will have a huge affect on interrogations because the best methods involve breaking down a persons belief system which can be accompished with just talking. it's just the fact that they're taking away these tools (which do have a place) for no reason that makes me interested in the whole scenario. another intersting tip: when we first came to iraq, the iraqis that were captured were completely convinced that the men would be killed and the women and children (and cattle i presume) would be raped and then killed as simple as that. saddam told them they were dead if we came. what do you think those people thought about being taken to abu ghraib where, despite being uncomfortable, their basic physical and spiritual needs were met? not to gloss over the abuse, which is inexcusable. i would not, however, call sleep deprivation and using guard dogs to scare the detainees during an interrogation an abuse of power.

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» RE: back to the article... Posted by: apodapa
» RE: 10-year-old? Posted by: dennyduke@earthlink.net
» RE: back to the article... Posted by: dennyduke@earthlink.net
» RE: back to the article... Posted by: apodapa
» RE: back to the article... Posted by: dennyduke@earthlink.net
» RE: back to the article... Posted by: markitup137
» RE: back to the article... Posted by: dennyduke@earthlink.net
» and by the way dennyduke... Posted by: markitup137
» RE: and by the way dennyduke... Posted by: dennyduke@earthlink.net
» RE: back to the article... Posted by: Samantha Vimes
» RE: back to the article... Posted by: markitup137
» RE: back to the article... Posted by: markitup137
» RE: back to the article... Posted by: brasilaron
» RE: back to the article... Posted by: markitup137
» RE: back to the article... Posted by: dennyduke@earthlink.net
» RE: back to the article... Posted by: dennyduke@earthlink.net
re: Stripping Rumsfeld and Bush of Impunity
Posted by: bobolsen on May 31, 2005 8:30 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Should Canada indict Bush?

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/

cs/ContentServer?

pagename=thestar/Layout/

Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=

1100517502971&call_pageid=

970599109774&col=Columnist

969907626796&DPL=IvsNDS%2f7

ChAX&tacodalogin=yes


Toronto Star, Nov. 16, 2004

Should Canada indict Bush?

THOMAS WALKOM twalkom@thestar.ca

When U.S. President George W. Bush arrives in Ottawa ó probably later this year ó should he be welcomed? Or should he be charged with war crimes?

It's an interesting question. On the face of it, Bush seems a perfect candidate for prosecution under Canada's Crimes against Humanity and War Crimes Act.

..... snip ,,,,

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o snap...
Posted by: markitup137 on May 31, 2005 11:16 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
didn't see the whole quote, my fault.

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re: civil war
Posted by: markitup137 on May 31, 2005 11:56 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
first off, the civil war comment... i was talking about, "If, as a whole it's deemed too powerful to control, then let these states with a conscience leave the union." maybe that wasn't clear, the last time a group of states tried that there was a civil war. i don't necessarily agree that what happened after wwII was the best choice, but whatever the reasoning was (it was random, but... tough situation) it was over fifty years ago. i wasn't alive then, were you? they've been fighting ever since, yet after arrafat dies, suddenly peace is an option. people 2 generations ago made a decision that started a long fight, and it was stated from the beginning whose side we were on. you're talking about a state that sponsored suicide bombers. im not saying the israelis are angels, but compared to that ill take the lesser of 2 evils. and the antisemitism... i have never met an arab that doesn't hate israel with ever muscle in his body. it's all the same to them.

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» RE: re: civil war Posted by: Jamesberry
» RE: re: civil war Posted by: markitup137
» RE: re: civil war Posted by: Halaby
Gitmo a diversion of sorts
Posted by: Jamesberry on Jun 1, 2005 12:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Talking about a trail of paperwork showing these or that person is a war crimnal for torture is a diversion from an important thruth that is largely ignored. Simply put the whole war in Iraq is a War crime in and of itself. It is the crime of agression pure and simple and Bush and the other US leaders are war criminals just like the Germans where.

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connecting the dots
Posted by: abena on Jun 1, 2005 2:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
i concur that this prosecution is hopeful, if unrealistic. but strength in numbers, if we support the effort.

recall ramsey clark's ongoing attempt to impeach bush and i believe that has to include cheny and rumsfield et al.

yes there are war crimes galore, and unless we use one rulebook there will always be recourse to might. Where does the world court come in? oh, no surprise the US does not support it.

as an aside to the article, and in support of some earlier comments, i believe that

instead of the vatican controlling our policies, we have a paranoid, fearful zionism, exploiting (the neoconns) and being exploited (americans fearful for israel), and this is the sacred cow in american [middle eastern] policy which must be addressed.

this may be unpleasant but it is true, and we humans are all in this together. there are heros and villans on all sides, and the truth cannot choose sides. Remember Vanumu, a true hero and victim of "national interests", "state secrets", i.e. nuclear bomb development, by the US and Israel neoconn interests.

refs:
Impending War on Iraq an American Jihad
by George Bisharat
http://www.commondreams.org
/views03/0213-07.htm

Tom Barry, In These Times The Pentagon neocons who brought you the war in Iraq have a
new target.
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/20046/

p.s you guys are great - its great to hear those with info and ideas on the same wavelength, sometimes saying the unsayable.

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MARKITUP137 - a special message just for you....
Posted by: mendomama on Jun 1, 2005 8:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So, we all drink from the same water, huh? Well, every once in a while, we get someone like you in here blabbing on about how we hate America, how we make something out of nothing, and how we should just leave. Did it ever occur to you that the reasons many of us feel so passionately about the issues facing us, is BECAUSE we love America? Because we'd like the principles She was founded on to be honored and respected? Personally, I love it when people like you post here. It just makes it easier for us all to accept that our fellow countrymen/women are immersed in ignorance. You think that you are posing intelligent arguments, when really, you might as well be a tape recorded collective of everything idiotic that Bush and his cronies have tried to pass off as the truth. You are a prime example of the propaganda machine that is poisoning the minds of the masses. You have essentially proven, in my opinion, that Bush supporters are of the slightly challenged - mentally. Otherwise, you would have included in your many statements some kind of intelligent information to support your ludicrous claims. I suppose there are many more out there like you, that dismiss the atrocities committed by this administration with a sort of "War is Hell" kind of mentality. I am thankful for the clarity I have. It's better to live consciously, with full knowledge of the bullshit that our government is dishing out, than to be one of the fools licking their chops begging for more, as if the spoons full of shit were a steak and lobster special.

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» try try again Posted by: brasilaron
nukes vs suicide bombers
Posted by: brasilaron on Jun 1, 2005 8:05 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
it's not a pretty choice, but which one would you consider more dangerous, a country that possesses nuclear weapons (multiple) and regularly gives the middle finger to international concensus and international law, assassinates people it considers enemies without giving them a trial, occupies land illegally and continually encourages it's citizens to further occupy that land, AND does not let nearly 1/2 of the people living within its borders to vote (strangely enough i'm not describing the USA)? Or a few (admittedly increasing in #s) desparate people strapped with explosives that blow themselves seemingly at random? The permanent threat of eternal destruction and desecration of this world that we are not owners of through nuclear irradiation or the remediable threat of desperate people driven to get their homes back? I'm gonna have to say that the Israelis lose this argument over who is more dangerous to the world.

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» RE: nukes vs suicide bombers Posted by: dennyduke@earthlink.net
What's Hiding Under the 9/11 Commission Report
Posted by: Riverside on Jun 2, 2005 6:14 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The trauma of 9/11 will be with us for some time to come, but we must begin to reach a stage where we ask even more probing questions than those asked by the 911 Commission. Much of their efforts were dictated by two forces, first the Administration, and secondly the emotional need for closure by the surviviors.

There are many, many unanswered questions all with serious implications. The supposed foul up by the FBI and other agencies who were close to the hint of an attack needs a full investigation with no whips just magnifying glasses to get to the truth.

Where was Ahmad Chalabi the months and weeks before 911? Who were his contacts here and in Saudi Arabia? The ease with which terrorists entered the U.S. and then got flight training remains highly suspect. Who helped them?

What is the relevance, if any, of the remark by some Administration officials, "that what we needed was another Pearl Harbor." What prompted this, and how, if at all, is it related to 911?

Final thought, perhaps Osama will never be caught alive, because his answers to some of the above could be cataclysmic.

We need to bandage our wounds and our hearts and get back to saving Ameirca. Our best bandage is the full truth.

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an accountability moment
Posted by: drmagal on Jun 2, 2005 5:08 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am sad that the replies to your post are all negative and a wee bit whiny. YES - LET'S GET BUSY or nothing will change.

What can we do? Let's see...

STOP BUYING THINGS - SAVE YOUR MONEY. MONEY IS THE GOD OF THESE HORRIBLE CRIMINALS IN THE WHITE HOUSE - MONEY AND NOTHING BUT.

Push your local papers and tv stations to get off Michael Jackson and talk about war crimes and dead soldiers and what a mess Iraq is and how many billions we have wasted. Demand they begin to report news, not drivel about celebrities. Tell your friends to push as well. Let them know you will stop watching their shows.

Stop buying whatever his cronies sell. Let them know you're not buying their stuff anymore. Tell your friends.

Stop worrying about the Right Wing Christian nonsense. I doubt seriously there are that many of those folks - I do believe it is a smokescreen to scare us. And... if they do exist, fight back. Stand up to them! Argue, debate, stop shopping at their Piggly Wiggly amd Wal-Mart stores. Overwhelm them with facts and figures and tell the truth about the hatred, death, poverty, torture, and other non Jesus things this administration is into.. Tell the truth! Ask them to try to get it that Bush and Company do not value their lives, only their money. And their son's and daughter's patriotism - fodder for the cannons. Jesus spoke of love - have you ever heard any of them speak about love? Compassion? Helping the poor? Feeding the hungry? Well - maybe lip service about countries and poor people other than our own.


EXERCISE YOUR RIGHT TO Free Speech - DEMAND MORE THAN ONE SIDE IN THE NEWS, PAPERS, RADIO! ASK - ASK AGAIN - DEMAND IT! ELECT TRUTH TELLERS - DEMAND BALLSY LEADERS WITH BRAINS (THAT'S IMPORTANT!) . STOP BUYING WHAT THEY ARE SELLING US - IF WE STOP BUYING THEIR LIES AND THEIR GOODS WE WILL HURT THEM WHERE THEY LIVE.

TAKE BACK AMERICA FOR AMERICANS.

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bye guys...
Posted by: markitup137 on Jun 2, 2005 5:40 PM   
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i didn't come to change your minds, it's more for my benefit. i wanted to play devils advocate and find some hard core liberals so i could figure out what exactly was going through your minds. war is horrible and if i thought all the problems in the middle east would sort themselves out without outside action, i might agree with you. the entire area is a breading ground for would be terrorists, all of who seem to think that the us is the source of all there problems. whether you think the us deserves it or not isn't really an issue for me. turning a blind eye in the face of the arab situation (espescially after 911) would be a recipe for real reprecussions, not a skirmish the likes of which were involved today. you people serve your purpose; if noone was around to ask questions and complain, these issues might go unnoticed. and by the way, i did visit iraq for about 4 months during the time they were having their first real elections in almost a century. im not fluent in arabic, but many of them spoke a little english and what i got from talking to the iraqis is that almost noone trusts the us, but they want their own country and they're happy that saddam is gone. it's understandable why they wouldn't trust us considering what happened after desert storm, but these people have hope. another thing you may or may not have noticed is the shift in the focus of the insurgency after the elections. up until that point, their efforts were focused completely on you. to this effect, most of the car bombs and attacks happened in the early morning... just in time for the evening news. most of the reporters didn't even need to leave the iz; they got everything they needed delivered to them by the insurgents, a few car bombs at a time. now they're trying to do the same thing to the iraqis, but they're not going to win there either because they will have our support as long as they need it. that's where trust forms, not by sympathizing with outright criminals, whos blind hatred will ultimately lead them to their demise. and i sincerely hope that we don't hear of any more abuse from our own troops, that's not the standard we want to set.

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» RE: bye guys... Posted by: mendomama
smujismuj
Posted by: smujismuj on Jun 4, 2005 10:36 PM   
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Why only rumsfeld and bush? Why not condoleezza and cheney and wolfowitz and pearle and feith and myers and gonzales and ashcroft and tommy franks and colin powell and the rest of these machievellian power monkeys?

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