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Monkey Trial or Kangaroo Court?
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The man on the stage might well have been talking about life in a totalitarian state, but John Calvert, a lawyer who directs the Intelligent Design Network of Shawnee Mission, Kan., was describing the state of science education in America.
For three days in May, in a cramped auditorium across the street from the Kansas Capitol building, Calvert and his 22 witnesses -- scientists, philosophers, teachers, and other scholars -- painted a picture of evolutionary biology as a tyrannical, "naturalistic" discipline that can be salvaged only by letting the bright light of the supernatural shine in.
Witness Nancy Bryson told the story of how she lost her position as head of the Department of Science and Mathematics at Mississippi University for Women after she spoke out against evolution in 2003. After that, she said, other faculty members would slip into her office after hours to talk with her about the situation, saying that it was "not safe" to talk openly.
California high school teacher Roger DeHart testified that administrators reassigned him from biology to earth science because he had been telling students about what he called the "misrepresentation" of evolution as an explanation for life. When the controversy eventually forced DeHart to move to a different school, he was warned by one of his new colleagues, "I'll be keeping an eye on you."Â
When parents complained that her by-the-book teaching of evolution showed "humanistic bias" and asked her for her personal opinion, Kansas high school teacher Jill Gonzales-Bravo could only tell them, "I don't feel at liberty to discuss it." She felt compelled to testify at the Topeka hearings, she said, despite her fear that it was "not really a [good] career move."
Creationism Reincarnated
For a brief period between 1999 and 2001, Kansas science teachers had labored under state standards that de-emphasized evolution. In 2004, voters once more gave conservative religious members a majority on the state's Board of Education; as a result, science standards are to be rewritten yet again, in a way that deprecates evolution and permits discussion of intelligent design.Â
"ID," as it's often called, is the idea that natural processes cannot account for the appearance of new species of plants and animals throughout the earth's history -- that although genetic diversity may shift around a lot within species, the species themselves were designed by an entity outside of nature.Â
Mainstream scientists are nearly unanimous in rejecting ID, which they say is just a reincarnation of old-fashioned biblical creationism, carefully articulated to avoid going afoul of the Constitution.
In March, a 26-member writing committee assigned by the Board submitted a new draft of science standards that was, well, standard stuff. But eight dissenters on the committee submitted an alternative version that included anti-evolution language. Board members who liked the alternative version decided to schedule hearings for early May in Topeka, to weigh the relative merits of the competing drafts.Â
Calvert's witnesses turned out in force. Their side was coming off a big win in Ohio, where, in 2002, they had fought for and gotten a change in school science standards. They knew that Kansas, with a newly elected, pro-creation majority on its school board, would be an easy mark.Â
But Kansas's mainstream biologists boycotted the hearings, comparing them to the 1925 Scopes "Monkey Trial." They said the outcome was already decided anyway, and that to defend evolution in what they called a "kangaroo court" would only give the proceedings a veneer of respectability they didn't deserve.Â
'A Good Product'
At the hearings, witness after witness spoke of gaping holes in evolutionary theory, the power of ID to fill those holes, and ID's potential to give students the complete and exciting science education they deserve.Â
Ohio biology teacher Bryan Leonard testified that he helped write a state lesson plan called "Critical Analysis of Evolution." He said he knows it's a "good product" because of the overwhelmingly positive reaction from students: "The key is to find out what students want and teach toward their interests."
Daniel Ely, professor of biology at the University of Akron, praised the Ohio plan, saying that when students are presented a subject in the form of a controversy and are permitted to argue one side or the other, they "take ownership" of the subject. "When I was a kid, we learned about Communism," he said. "You have to understand both sides."Â
Philosophy professor Warren Nord of the University of North Carolina, declaring himself a "liberal in every sense," explained that justice demands inclusion of religious groups in classroom discussion, just as it has ensured that "women and blacks" are included.Â
John Sanford, Courtesy Associate Professor of Horticulture at Cornell and co-inventor of a "gene gun" for incorporating DNA into cells, said that as he sees it, evolution through natural selection is "amazingly not true, which is very exciting." Arguing that that's the kind of excitement needed in the classroom, Sanford said, "Being able to discuss their doubts is awesome for students."
For three days, witnesses delivered a message of openness, fairness, and democracy, declaring that when it comes to biology in the classroom, "you have to let students follow the evidence wherever it leads." And judging from their testimony, all roads lead to intelligent design.
The biologists, chemists, and biochemists who spoke in favor of ID made a host of well-worn points that are regularly debunked by the scientific majority. (The pro-ID argument is laid out in detail on the Center for Science and Culture website of the Seattle-based Discovery Institute. Mainstream explanations of evolution as a natural process are well described for the non-scientist on the Kansas Citizens for Science site and a Science and Creationism publication by the National Academy of Sciences.)
Scientists boycotting the hearings, including members of Kansas Citizens for Science, kept an eye on the proceedings while they staffed a press-relations center on the fifth floor of the capitol. Among their many charges was that pro-ID forces had simply inserted into the science standards a lot of inflammatory language ("an unpredictable and unguided natural process"; "no discernable direction or goal") that was meant to make evolution sound "atheistic."Â
And by the time the hearings adjourned on Saturday evening, Calvert and his witnesses had made it clear that the formula "evolution = atheism" did indeed lie at the core of their legal case for the new standards. Â
Atheistic Darwinists
The language of the testimony was largely academic, but the tone was at times reminiscent of an old-time revival meeting. Conversion experiences were the rule.Â
This was how witness James Barham, "independent scholar" and Ph.D. candidate at Notre Dame, introduced his testimony: "I was a convinced atheist Darwinist for 20 years. Slowly, it dawned on me that my interest in the spiritual side of humanity could not be reconciled with my study of science."
Jill Gonzales-Bravo: "At Kansas State University I learned quickly that anyone who believed differently [from evolution through natural selection] was not a true intellectual. I became part of the liberal movement and went into the Peace Corps. But I had children and my worldview changed." She came to see that "evolution takes from students the belief that they are here for a purpose."
John Sanford: "Most of my career I was an atheistic evolutionist. Then I became a theistic evolutionist and finally a biblical Christian. My belief in evolution had been based solely on authority. To the atheist, there is no alternative hypothesis."
Just Confused
The Board of Education had appointed Topeka attorney Pedro Irigonegaray to argue the case for the science standards drafted by the writing committee's 18-member majority. With the scientific boycott in place, Irigonegaray's chief task was to cross-examine the pro-ID witnesses.
In Summer for the Gods (1997), a history of the notorious Monkey Trial held in Dayton, Tenn. 80 years ago, author Edward Larson noted that when cross-examining adversary William Jennings Bryan, Clarence Darrow avoided questions that would allow Bryan to "answer with his well-honed remarks" about the deficiencies of evolution. Rather than give Bryan a "soapbox for his speeches," Darrow focused on exposing him as a religious extremist.
Irigonegaray appeared to be following Darrow's example. He steered clear of most scientific issues, attempting instead to demonstrate the fundamentally religious nature of the witnesses' arguments. (To back up his contention that ID is a fringe theory even in the religious sphere, Irigonegaray read from a document signed by more than 3,700 clergy. An Open Letter Concerning Religion and Science praises the theory of evolution as "a core component of human knowledge.")
He asked James Barham, as he did several of the witnesses, if teaching evolution to Kansas children was equivalent to teaching materialism and atheism. "That depends on how it's interpreted by the child," said Barham. "But that is the framework. Teachers who disagree with that framework should be allowed to teach as they feel is right."Â
He asked Angus Menuge, a professor of philosophy at Concordia University, "How do you explain the many theists, including evangelical Christians, who don't see [evolution through natural mechanisms] as a contradiction of faith?" Menuge didn't flinch: "Some of those people are just confused."Â
During the two days of hearings that I attended, Irigonegaray began his cross-examination of each witness with the same three questions. In response to the first, "What, in your personal opinion, is the age of the earth?" nine witnesses cited the widely accepted figure of around 4.5 billion years.Â
Other witnesses bowed at least somewhat to biblical orthodoxy. Gene-gun inventor Sanford put the earth's age at "maybe 10,000 years" but "not as young as 5,000." Pressed for an answer, Roger DeHart finally concluded that "I'm fine with" an estimate of 5,000 to 100,000 years. Daniel Ely and Nancy Bryson gave themselves plenty of room for maneuver, putting the earth's age at somewhere "between 5,000 and 4.5 billion years."Â
Irigonegaray's second and third questions went to the core of what ID proponents call "the controversy." He asked each witness if she or he agreed that life as we see it today is the result of "common descent" (that is, that species evolve from other species through purely natural causes) and that humans are descended from pre-hominid ancestors. Eleven of 13 witnesses rejected both statements, with varying degrees of force.
Pressed to provide an alternative explanation for the origin of the human species, some witnesses declined, while others offered earnest responses:Â
"Design, which implies a designer, but we don't go there."
"A creator, but I wouldn't expect the State to teach that."
"An intelligent designer, based on my theistic views."
"Humans and the non-human living world have qualitatively different features that are very mysterious."
"God, by special creation."
Warren Nord enthusiastically recommended that schools should wrap every subject, including biology, in its religious and philosophical context. An incredulous Irigonegaray asked him, "Is it important to have religion taught in economics class?"Â
Nord: "Yes."
Irigonegaray: "What about math class?"
Nord: "I can make a case for that."
Several witnesses flatly refused to discuss their personal religious views, but only one of them was explicit about being a non-Christian. Mustafa Akyol of the International Dialogue Platform in Istanbul, Turkey argued that opening biology classes to ID in the United States would do wonders for our relations with the Muslim world. Muslims today, he said, are alienated by the West's materialism, which "includes atheistic philosophy."Â
Apparently, Calvert had invited Akyol in order to demonstrate that the ID camp pitches a big tent. But Akyol himself may be more of a small-tent kind of guy. The week of the hearings, Kansas City's Pitch Weekly reported that Akyol is associated with a cultish organization called Bilim Arastirma Vakfi, which has harassed, threatened and slandered Turkish academics who teach evolution.
Keeping the Designer Under Wraps
A biology teacher who discusses with her students the case for intelligent design -- as she would be allowed to do under the alternative science standards -- might well be asked by students, "So, tell me, who or what did the designing?" At the hearing, most witnesses wanted to discuss only design, not a designer. That often required some fancy footwork. Here is Irigonegaray's exchange with Russell Carlson, professor of biochemistry and microbiology at the University of Georgia:
Irigonegaray: "The intelligent designer is God?"
Carlson: "Well, yeah, I'd agree with that."
Irigonegaray: "Science should be neutral with respect to religion?"
Carlson: "Yeah."
Irigonegaray: "But intelligent design places faith in ... "
Carlson: "No, the designer is neutral."
Irigonegaray: "You said the designer is God."
Carlson: "We shouldn't discuss the identity [in the classroom]."
Irigonegaray: "We should keep that a secret?"
Carlson: "When children have questions about the materialist explanation, we now send them to their parents or pastors. Instead, design should be offered as an explanation."
Carlson later added that if a child asks about the identity of the designer, that is the point at which he or she should be sent to a parent or pastor.Â
Following Angus Menuge's testimony, I asked him what should happen when children ask, "Who's the designer?" Menuge said, "You should cut off discussion at that point, and pursue it in a forum other than the classroom." Â Â
But it will be teachers and administrators, not university professors, who determine what actually happens in Kansas public schools under the new standards -- and the pro-ID members of the state Board of Education do not appear to be so circumspect when it comes to religion. During an intermission, I asked board member Kathy Martin whether, as Menuge suggested, a teacher should cut off discussion of the designer's identity.
"Oh, no," she said. "If a student wants to have that conversation, there's nothing wrong with the teacher discussing that. It's all about the students' needs, and as you know, they have a lot of needs these days. I was a teacher myself. If, say, a student's puppy has been run over by a car, the student and I might pray about it together, privately. It's not about religion -- it's about helping the student."
Connie Morris, another pro-ID school board member, told me, "No, we can't mandate intelligent design or creationism in the school standards. But as the fellow from Ohio said, we have to let students go where the evidence leads. I'll give you an example. Did you know there is evidence now that prayer is beneficial in treating cancer?" I asked if teachers should be able to teach about that. Morris, her eyes brightening, said, "Absolutely!"
Those school board members gave substance to a scenario foreseen by Harry McDonald, spokesperson for Kansas Citizens for Science: "They don't even have to introduce ID into the standards. All they need is for a child to ask about it, and that will open the classroom door to religion."
The Legal Strategy
The final witness was Calvert himself, who announced that he planned to file "an extensive legal brief" in the coming days that would provide the basis for revising the science standards to allow ID. His legal argument, which had been implicit in all of his questioning of witnesses, goes like this:Â
(1) Evolution as it's now taught in Kansas schools is based on methodological naturalism, that is, the search by science for explanations only in the natural world.
(2) Methodological naturalism always implies philosophical naturalism, the belief that there is nothing beyond the natural world. (This, say anti-ID scientists, is the fatal flaw in the argument.)
(3) Philosophical naturalism is atheistic.
(4) Atheism is a religion. (Needless to say, this is a proposition not universally accepted.)
(5) Therefore, religion is already being taught in Kansas biology classes.
(6) So religious fairness requires that evidence for intelligent design and against evolution through natural selection also be allowed in the classroom.
By arguing, implicitly, that the supernatural should be introduced into science curricula alongside "naturalistic" ideas, Calvert is relying on the federal government's No Child Left Behind Act, which requires that teaching be "secular, neutral, and non-ideological" with respect to religion.Â
For three long days, many in the audience had been wondering which witnesses were correct -- those who said the new standards would not inject religion into the curriculum or those who said or implied that they would.Â
In his testimony, Calvert cleared up that confusion. To meet the legal requirement of neutrality as he defined it, schools either must allow religious teaching in biology classes or else allow nothing at all to be taught about how biological species come to be.
The ID forces' reliance on federal law is significant. After the hearings, Irigonegaray told reporters, "What we saw in there was religious extremism, and what we are seeing in Kansas is happening all across this country."
Adding to that, Harry McDonald of KCS noted that only four of the nearly two dozen witnesses were from Kansas. "They had to scour the nation to find enough people to testify. With a word, we could have had thousands of Kansas scientists here to support evolution."
But this struggle is unlikely to be decided in the scientific arena. In America, where polls have shown that a majority believe in some form of creationism and want it taught in their schools, it's easy to portray the defenders of biological evolution as anti-democratic, overly educated elitists.Â
One KCS scientist provided this understated assessment of the hearings' outcome: "Looking around at the audience in there, I realized that we do have a communication problem."
By walking a couple of hundred steps from the door of the hearing room, witnesses and audience members would have found a reminder that Kansas has been an ideological battleground longer that it has been a state. In a hall just off the Capitol rotunda is John Steuart Curry's great mural of John Brown towering over Union and Confederate forces as he brandishes a rifle in one hand and a bible in the other.Â
Then as now, Kansas was a magnet for out-of-state religious radicals. But then, a century and a half ago, they were on the right side of history.Â
Someday, historians may kick around the question of who was right and who was wrong in the Kansas battle over science education. The state's schoolchildren also will be weighing that question, and they won't have to wait very long for the chance to do so. Their new science standards are due out this summer.
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Posted by: dennyduke@earthlink.net on May 19, 2005 2:06 AM
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Which appears to refer to an agency once engaged in the conversion of Native Americans to the religion of their killers.
Well, I guess things haven't changed much in Kansas.
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» RE: Consistent location
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Posted by: bookwoman on May 19, 2005 4:06 AM
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Why is it never mentioned that Darwin was an ordained Anglican clergyman. Can it be that this man of God would actually have laid the foundations for a Godless theory.
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» RE: Intelligent Design
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» RE: Intelligent Design
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» RE: Intelligent Design -- which god?
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Posted by: tofocsend on May 19, 2005 4:19 AM
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This is a ridiculous tautology. Of course science is the search for explanations only in the natural world - the natural world is the only medium humans can observe and manipulate in a documented, repeatable manner - i.e. scientifically.
Science does not presume that "there is nothing beyond the natural world" (although some scientists doubtless believe this), only that science is not competent to explore whatever lies "beyond the natural world".
The simple fact is that there is no contradiction between evolution and creation. Evolution is a scientific theory to explain the diversity in life across space and time, and "intelligent design" (ID) is a philosophical theory to explain how life came to exist in the first place.
As soon as you introduce ID into a science discussion, you're no longer talking about science, since ID implies influence on natural processes that originates from "beyond the natural world" - i.e. outside the purview of science.
If schools want to discuss ultimate questions about how life originated, let them do it in a philosophy class. Transforming science from experiment and observation into mysterious forces that cannot be discussed in class destroys science and does an injustice to whatever mysterious forces may be at work in the universe.
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» RE: idiculous Tautology
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» RE: idiculous Tautology
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» RE: idiculous Tautology
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» more tautologies...
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» RE:diculous Tautology
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Posted by: jambro on May 19, 2005 4:41 AM
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As Muslim scientists we are perfectly comfortable with evolution and with a "divine" creator who mysteriously "guides" all natural processes, ideas interwoven in classical Islamic science of the 9th to 13th century. Subsequently, both Christian & Muslim worlds entered a conservative trend that only gradually shifted by a Renaissance in European thought based on rediscovery of Classic Hellenic thought transmitted through Arabic & Muslim scholarship.
Science is a process that has evolved through proposals, tests, and accepting theories as transitional, to be replaced by further refinements. Occasionally, major discoveries can shift the direction of our understanding, but are both rare & do not push the forward progress of science backward.
But many theories along the historical path need re-examination, as when proposed, the scientific community & overall level & distribution of knowledge was insufficient to understand or make use of them. But I doubt that creationism was among those theories.
Creationist tendencies are few and far between in the Muslim world, as even fundamentalists push for a modern reform, but free from Bush's agenda to change the Muslim world via his American fundamentalist vision of rude capital rule & greed at the expense of society & environment.
Science must resist fundamenatlist views that distort reality as much as turbo-capitalism & political agendas that exploit science for nefarious purposes.
For biology, a creation-evolution argument is obsolete as micro-molecular level of bio-chem/physics has reduced biological research to a process of digital statistical simulation, where mathematical calculations are more important than integration at organism or ecological levels. Even ecologists are marginalized, whether concerned about the natural balance as doing god's work of stewardship or saving spaceship earth from self destructing.
Reductionist science thus represents a threat to itself as much as from capitalism & fundamentalists, which threaten an ecologically viable human habitat, whatever a Creator's intent.
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» RE: from ridiculous to sublime & back, a Muslim perspective
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Posted by: ReverendYankee on May 19, 2005 6:13 AM
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Posted by: jobie1kno on May 19, 2005 6:24 AM
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Posted by: lamar on May 19, 2005 6:50 AM
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Then there is all this talk of letting the kids decide. These are kids that woke up on Christmas and believed that a man in a red suit left them presents, and later that a bunny hid the Easter eggs, and one time a fairy gave them tooth money. We are going to let the kids decide for themselves without teaching them how science really works? Doesn't sound like a fair shake at all.
Intelligent Design is nothing more than instructing kids to believe in a generic fill-in-the-name-later god.
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» RE: Jesus and the tooth fairy
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Posted by: 42Years on May 19, 2005 7:07 AM
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Posted by: monkeywrench on May 19, 2005 7:36 AM
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In Kansas City, hearings began today to determine how the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, and the Boogie Man have influenced Intelligent Design. Experts on the subject, Alice, from Wonderland, and someone known only as "The Wizard of Oz" are scheduled to testify this morning.
These hearings are expected to last either through Eternity, or until the arrival of Armegedden and The Rapture, whichever comes first.
Tune in later at "The Witching Hour," for film of this exciting event.
Thank you. And now, back to our previously-scheduled program, "As the Stomach Turns."
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» Yep! The REAL AGENDA that hides behind ID/Evolution
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» RE: BREAKING NEWS!
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» RE: BREAKING NEWS!
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Posted by: amiabledave on May 19, 2005 7:50 AM
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A theory is an assumption or system of assumptions, accepted principles, and rules of procedure, which may be based on limited information or knowledge, or thousands of irrefutable facts. It is devised to analyze, predict, or otherwise explain the nature or behavior of a specified set of phenomena. That's what science is about. Theories undergo constant revision as more tools and knowledge become available, bringing the theory ever closer to what, for all practical purposes, is the truth. Intelligent design does not not serve this purposes or the scientific method.
What I think must also be understood is the vast difference between deign and order. A watch, for example, is a designed mechanism. Anybody stumbling upon such a device knows, ipso facto, that such a mechanical device must have had a human designer. No so, however, with the universe, our solar system chemisty, DNA, or the intricate sculpturing of earth, mountains, and shore lines. These, just like stars and galaxies, are ordered systems created and carved out by a few natural laws of nature over uimaginable stretches of time.
Saying there is a God only removes the complexity problem by one step and shuts off further thinking--what science must never do.
And finallly, it is abiogenesis that deals with the transformation of non-living matter into living organisms. It's not a part of evolution.
Many, if not most, argue that religion serves many human needs that science cannot. And that is fine. What cannot be affirmed also cannot be negated. There are many places for philosophical speculation to take place. It just must not be in the science class if our civilization is to continue going forward.
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» RE: What I believe responsible persons in the non-scientific community should understand
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» RE: What I believe responsible persons in the non-scientific community should understand
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» The Non-Scientific Community Responds
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Posted by: Andros on May 19, 2005 8:03 AM
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Science has delivered already. The quality and length of human life have increased because of science. We rationalists, scientists and progressives all want to share the knowledge and our conclusions. But, we always leave the door open for new ideas even if they contradict today's conclusions. However, those new ideas/theories must be testable, present evidence, and, themselves be open to revision! Obviously ID does not hold up to such a standard.
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Posted by: thirdmg on May 19, 2005 8:59 AM
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Here's a quote from the series' online FAQ about evolution:
"Isn't evolution just a theory that remains unproven?"
"In science, a theory is a rigorously tested statement of general principles that explains observable and recorded aspects of the world. A scientific theory therefore describes a higher level of understanding that ties "facts" together. A scientific theory stands until proven wrong -- it is never proven correct. The Darwinian theory of evolution has withstood the test of time and thousands of scientific experiments; nothing has disproved it since Darwin first proposed it more than 150 years ago. Indeed, many scientific advances, in a range of scientific disciplines including physics, geology, chemistry, and molecular biology, have supported, refined, and expanded evolutionary theory far beyond anything Darwin could have imagined."
You can find the FAQ here.
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Posted by: susan9390 on May 19, 2005 9:02 AM
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Science education is not about teaching the answers. It's about asking thought-provoking questions.
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» RE: SCIENCE EDUCATION
Posted by: WitchyNy
» RE: SCIENCE EDUCATION
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» RE: SCIENCE EDUCATION
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Posted by: doktordubbs on May 19, 2005 9:06 AM
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As a social worker as well, maybe I can get some funding for this new athiestic agency under the Faith-Based Initiative and start lecturing my clients about the non-existence of their gods and the lack of heaven and hell to reward/punish them.
One reason athiests (that I know, at least) DON'T like to be called a religion is that we reject the fundamental requirements for a religion (higher powers et al) as well as the platitudes and dogma (i.e. the man in the sky intelligently designed that factory farmed chicken you ate) that permeate organized religious practices.
Tax-exempt status would be nice, though...
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» RE: Athiesm as religion?
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Posted by: HeyMO on May 19, 2005 9:14 AM
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Posted by: padam on May 19, 2005 9:20 AM
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I just thank the Tooth Fairy that my teachers tought me evolution, otherwise I might be one of those stupid republicans.
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Posted by: WitchyNy on May 19, 2005 9:25 AM
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All I have found that the Bible states is that Man came from clay. Which it true. It is just that a lot of time and stuff happened in between...(like billions of years and evolution)
If you value your kids education, they are not in public schools anyway...they are just factories for training slaves.
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Posted by: gailnsteve on May 19, 2005 9:56 AM
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» RE: Problem with Intelligent Design Creationists
Posted by: apodapa
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Posted by: DennisDalrymple on May 19, 2005 10:22 AM
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What's all this fuss about Cretinism in Kansas I've been hearing about on the nes, and why are so many people in favor of Cretinism? Don't they know Cretinism is tragic?
It's one of God's mistakes. Don't those people in Kansas understand this? We don't need more Cretinism, we need less.
Off stage voice: Creationism, Roseannadanna; they're talking about Creationism in Kansas.
Roseannadanna: Never mind.
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» RE: Dennis Dalrymple
Posted by: billgascoyne@earthlink.net
» RE: Dennis Dalrymple
Posted by: DennisDalrymple
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Posted by: Iamnotafruittree on May 19, 2005 10:24 AM
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Posted by: enkidu on May 19, 2005 10:35 AM
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Once we win in Kansas and then through out the world and manage to get the Creator back in the classrooms, we should start arguing that the Earth is flat and force’em to drop the ridiculous spherical shape!
I am still upset about the pardon of Galileo! Lets retract that! It was, after all, given up too easily after only 500 years!
I am sure we could use the same witness from this Kansas trial to argue the flatness of the Earth.
Who’s on?
P.S. This is not my idea – GOD told me himself he never liked spherical objects!
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» RE: a glorious future
Posted by: apodapa
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Posted by: heech on May 19, 2005 11:32 AM
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While I am an aetheist it strikes me as odd that the most powerful faith in what is described as the most powerful God, in so many cases, can be so easily thrown out of its comfort zone by something so beautiful, mysterious, and complex as it's own creator's possible methods.
Are they so frightened by the idea of dinosaurs and apes and saber tooth tigers that their belief in God might be shattered if they looked closely at their own God's footprints of the only artifacts of a possible design that God has given them?
It's also odd to me that so many people simply don't understand what science can and cannot explain. If more Christians understood how physics can describe only the moments before the universe's inception but not the actual "creation" or "birth" (depending on which side of the coin you prefer) nor what was there before (though "something" must have been unless we subscribe to another kind of unknowable faith ... that something this big can arise from nothing, that non-being gave birth to being) they might take some comfort.
Physicists admit, openly, that they cannot describe what took place before the universe's coming into being and that they may never be able to (though they would love to find a unified theory that brought even that into play). This is hardly an argument for aetheism. It is much more an indication that since we may never know, God is just as good a bet.
Existence itself is the most perplexing and weird thought man can ponder. Hence the potency of the Intelligent Design and afterlife and God in Heaven, etc. etc.
Science tells us this: the universe began ... and we don't know how and we dont know why.
In the end it is always faith that believers should call upon. The "why" and not the "how" when communing with their God. Making laws that outlaw other systems of knowing can only undermine and dimminish that core sense of genuineness that a truly faith based and spiritual connection with God is supposed to be about.
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» RE: The Problem of Faith
Posted by: Uncle Sam
» RE: The Problem of Faith
Posted by: Lava
» RE: The Problem of Faith
Posted by: apodapa
» RE: magic time
Posted by: apodapa
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Posted by: Geni on May 19, 2005 12:23 PM
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Posted by: Twist on May 19, 2005 12:55 PM
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Evolution, like any other scientific theory is God neutral. It is based on observations, and testable hypothesis's like "gene frequencies will change with respect to environmental pressures", and "fossils found in lower geological strata seem less complicated than those in higher strata", or "the coding for our proteins is nearly exactly the same from bacteria to human beings" for which the EVIDENCE is remarkably one sided. So, scientists who are apt to go with the evidence are remarkably one sided with respect to evolutionary theory.
The scientific method is In fact "materialistic" in that it limits us to testable hypotheses or "things that we can limit and observe, and most importantly see". Science doesn't exclude the possibility of God, it just can't deal with it directly. God is not directly observable in controlled testing. This doesn't make science a "religious belief", which would be based on faith, it makes it a methodological discipline for acquiring knowledge.
So, I have to ask, why are they attacking Evolution and not simply attacking the scientific method? Which limits scientific testing to what we can observe controllably (limited to materialism, or those "supernatural things that can be observed"). Is the scientific method going to be taught in these Kansas schools, if not are we going to have to replace it with wild faith based, biased religious guesswork.
What is a Biology teacher supposed to say to the kid that would ask "how Is ID theory derived from the scientific method?" when they are being taught, one after the other, in the same classroom?
Why should metaphysics be taught next to controlled science? Wouldn't it simply be more appropriate to teach children about design metaphysics in a philosophy class?
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» RE: The Scientific Method
Posted by: Rod in 83706
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Posted by: Bill Ware on May 19, 2005 1:09 PM
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It is only those who believe in Biblical mythology who have a problem with science. Those ID creationists who turn a blind eye to scientific observations such as the age of the earth, and scientific theories such as the theory of evolution, not only show disrespect for God by turning their backs on the realities of His marvelous creation, but also embarrass the rest of us who base our belief in God on reality not fantasy.
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» RE: Belief in God is based on the reality of the universe God created
Posted by: Sherman1970
» RE: Belief in God is based on the reality of the universe God created
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» RE: Belief... My dog is > than your god
Posted by: apodapa
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Posted by: mrbrown on May 19, 2005 2:02 PM
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I've always been resistant to criticism of our educational system. As a part of it, I’m well aware of how professional and dedicated my own collogues are. But… now that this issue has reared it’s ugly head and is moving well into the mainstream… as I see unbridled ignorance guiding our religious beliefs, our educational system and our government… it really makes me wonder where the teachers of the past several decades could have gone so wrong.
Several posters have mentioned the fact that this battle is being fought in Kansas. Yes, it is, but it is also an issue in states across this country. Please be careful not to adopt the typical East/West coast attitude that Kansas is some foreign country populated by hillbillies, cowboys and Indians. Sure we have some of all of the above, but this is a nationwide battle. And just as the Bush administration has been elected and re-elected, it can “happen here”. Bushites are thrilled that their electorate has become so incredibly ignorant. Who else would vote for them?
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» RE: I'm In Kansas & So Are You
Posted by: Twist
» RE: I'm In Kansas & So Are You
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» RE: I'm In Kansas & So Are You
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» RE: I'm In Kansas & So Are You
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Posted by: nemonemini on May 19, 2005 2:19 PM
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As to the Scopes Trial, it's worth keeping in mind that the textbook in question at the trial was filled with racist eugenic material. Even a secularist would find it hard to stomach what was being defended by the Darrows et al. Small wonder Bryan was critical of Social Darwinism!
The right approach is to defend the legacy of evolution, allow open debate over the mechanism of evolution between the problems of natural selection and the near 'scam' of intelligent design'.
John Landon
Debriefing Darwinism
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» RE: Deadlocked Darwin debate
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» RE: Deadlocked Darwin debate
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» RE: Deadlocked Darwin debate
Posted by: wanderwoman
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Posted by: Bill Ware on May 19, 2005 2:53 PM
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"To the people of Kansas:
"From an article about Dayton, TN in National Geographic and a more recent one in The Smithsonian, to articles earlier this year in Newsweek and Time, to the many newspaper pieces about the science of evolution vs "Intelligent Design," Creationism's latest manifestation, few reports can be found that fail to remind readers of how backward we are here in Rhea County, TN by mentioning our infamous 1925 Scopes "Monkey" Trial.
"Then, in an article about your upcoming kangaroo court proceedings, the writer referred to your putting evolution on trial as "Scopes II." My heart leapt at the thought that here might be a place ready to abandon scientific reality and embrace this ID pseudo-science mumbo jumbo, thus getting this 80 year monkey off our backs and putting the onus on yours instead. To the people of Kansas I say: Go for it!"
For some reason, they didn't publish it. BW
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Posted by: Duane on May 19, 2005 4:27 PM
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» RE: The Fraudulent Product
Posted by: apodapa
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Posted by: monkeywrench on May 19, 2005 5:14 PM
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Posted by: cynodont on May 19, 2005 6:25 PM
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To excerpt from Judge Overton's decision in that case:
"The defendants argue in their brief that evolution is, in effect, a religion, and that by teaching a religion which is contrary to some students' religious views, the State is infringing upon the student's free exercise rights under the First Amendment ...
"The defendants argue that the teaching of evolution alone presents both a free exercise problem and an establishment problem which can only be redressed by giving balanced treatment to creation science, which is admittedly consistent with some religious beliefs ...
"If creation science is, in fact, science and not religion, as the defendants claim, it is difficult to see how the teaching of such a science could "neutralize" the religious nature of evolution.
"Assuming for the purposes of argument, however, that evolution is a religion or religious tenet, the remedy is to stop the teaching of evolution, not establish another religion in opposition to it."
The full text of the decision is at Talk Origins .
The argument about balancing one religion with another clearly didn't fly with Overton. It will be interesting to see whether it flies in the inevitable U.S. Supreme Court case that ID has been "intelligently designed" to withstand.
Calvert's argument also has the consequence of allowing supernatural and religious "explanations" into every science class. Just replace the word "evolution" with any other science in the sentence, "Evolution as it's now taught in Kansas schools is based on methodological naturalism, that is, the search by science for explanations only in the natural world," go through the rest of Calvert's argument, and you're on your way to such winners as flood geology.
Perhaps we should also allow teachers to present evidence in favor of the "stork theory" of human reproduction. After all, all that stuff about sperm and eggs and DNA recombining -- that's just atheism.
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Posted by: jambro on May 19, 2005 6:26 PM
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Posted by: Donkeykong on May 19, 2005 6:35 PM
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2) Evolution is dishonest about its origions. Evolution depends 100% on Abiogenesis (life from non-life). Evolutionists will tell you that even if God created life it evolved but honestly if there was an uncontested God capable of making all life would evolution really be a viable theory?? Its like walking into a house after a gunshot to find the wife with a gun in her hand and then debating wether or not the thermal energy in the house all happened to coaless at one specific point to create a gunshot like wound.
3) Evolution depends on randomness for plausibility but lies about how unlikely complex life is. Your DNA is made up of 4 types of DNA-base, so if you randomly selected from 4 big piles of DNA-bases you would have a 25% chance of picking the right one, However you are made up of ~6 billion base pairs and 4^6 billion is a number significantly larger than the total number of particles in the universe. Mathematically impossible just slightly misses the mark, but mathematically impossible in 4 billion years within known methods of action seems to apply.
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» RE: Things Evolutionists don't want you to know.....
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» RE: Things Evolutionists don't want you to know.....
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» RE: Things Evolutionists don't want you to know.....
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» RE: Things Evolutionists don't want you to know.....
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» RE: Things Evolutionists don't want you to know.....
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Posted by: Donkeykong on May 19, 2005 6:36 PM
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5) Science is usually wrong. Its true. The catch is that once science does get it right it continues to get it right with a high degree of accuracy. But the majority of scientific theories throughout history have been wrong. Every scientific process known to man was previously explained by many false theories. Evoluiton is largely still in the getting it wrong stage or you would see it being done in the lab and predictions being made regarding the FUTURE rather than creative story telling regarding the past.
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» RE: Things evolutionists don't want you to know part 2
Posted by: SteveP
» RE: Things evolutionists don't want you to know part 2
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» RE: Things evolutionists don't want you to know part 2
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» RE: Things evolutionists don't want you to know part 2
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Posted by: apodapa on May 19, 2005 7:51 PM
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Posted by: Ivor on May 19, 2005 7:51 PM
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My experience is that basically, education is a brain washing exercise enforced by whatever pyramid is pushing the latest group think.
Religion of whatever culture is no more than another group think.
Science and all those other refugees from religion are just another group think.
What I think is what I feel ... and it is certainly not the Chimpanzee banging on a piano. It is most certainly not hell fire and brimstone and the inquisition.
We may all suppose ... that is our right if we are to have any illusion of autonomy ... well whatever ... it all is consigned to the compost heap of history. And a fat lot of good that has done the world.
In the meantime the screaming and the dying goes on ... and the pyramids of power are all saying ... think like me, and all will be sweetness and light ... muhwahhahahha!
Ivor Hughes
www.herbdatanz.com
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» RE: Ivor
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Posted by: SteveP on May 19, 2005 8:17 PM
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5 - Again, when people start talking about "you would see it being done in labs" and this fixation on the future (scientific theories often explain phenomena that we see, don't they? Part of the proof of a hypothesis is that it can be replicated - and in that sense that it can predict future events - but pretending that explaining the past is not a valid scientific pursuit is...forgive me...absurd) And in fact this is a myth too. We see labratory examples of the wheels of evolution all the time, from fruit flies to geraniums. We mess around with the genes of rodents, breed everything from orchids to race horses.
Where there is reason to explore 'evolution' are the relative roles of natural selection, random mutation, cataclysmic events and so on. What the rates of speciation and such are. But the existence of evolutionary forces seems pretty obvious, testable, replicatable, falsifiable and peer tested. Arguments of observed phenomena with arguments about probability seem, ignorant. The thing is there, it happens. That you can't make the math work, doesn't make it wink out of existence - it means you need to check your math. For instance, without assuming that non-random events are random.
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» RE: Chestnuts part II
Posted by: Donkeykong
» RE: Chestnuts part II
Posted by: wanderwoman
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Posted by: gunnercade on May 19, 2005 8:48 PM
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Well, how about this, my ID friends: the Raelians (remember them? the ones who claimed they cloned a baby who mysteriously disappeared?) have a hypothesis about the origin and evolution of complex life. Why don't we teach *that* in schools? It has intelligence, and it has design. Well, it has nothing to do with the Bible, but aren't you all saying that this is *not* about sneaking back the Bible in the classroom?
I have another question for the ID crowd. Certainly some of you heard about the phenomenon of drug resistant strains of bacteria or viruses. Hmmm. How does that happen, if not by natural selection? Does resistance happen because God messes with bacteria to get more people killed? Wow. Quite a picture of God you have. As Plutarch said in "On superstition", it's better not to believe in God than to have such an unworthy opinion of Him... I (and much smarter people than me) always thought that a God capable to arrange such perfect and magnificent complexity through natural laws was much more admirable than a God who needs to tinker with his creation at the drop of a hat. The latter strikes me as an underachiever...
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» RE: As someone said, "Intelligent Design" (ID) is neither...
Posted by: BillLoathingtheMilitaryClinton
» RE: As someone said, "Intelligent Design" (ID) is neither...
Posted by: Donkeykong
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Posted by: BillLoathingtheMilitaryClinton on May 20, 2005 2:00 AM
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There are 20 different amino acids each of which could be substituted anywhere on the chain of 574. For example, changing only one of these amino acids leads to the often fatal disease known as sickle cell anemia.
Question #1: How many fundamental particles are there in the universe?
Answer: ~10exp80
Question #2: What is a reasonable definition of statistical impossibility?
Answer: ~1 chance in 10exp50
Question #3: What volume would 10exp50 grains of sand equal?
Answer: They would fill a sphere the size of our solar system 15 times over.
Question #4: What is the probability of finding one specially marked grain of sand in 15 solar system sized spheres full of sand on the first and ONLY try while blindfolded?
Answer: 1 chance in 10exp 50.
(NOTE: We defined the problem as ONE TRY AND ONE TRY ONLY. YOU DO NOT GET AN INFINITE NUMBER OF ATTEMPTS. ONLY ONE. Therefore the probability is one in 10exp50, not "1".)
Now, how many different ways can 20 amino acids be combined in a sequence of 574 amino acids?
20exp574
Human hemoglobin is precisely ONE of that supernumber, 20exp574, which far exceeds the number of fundamental particles in the universe.
But we have only started with 574.
WHY "574"? What would be so special about "574" if you did not know that was where hemoglobin would be found?
20exp573 is not much smaller than 20exp574
20exp572 is trivially smaller than 20exp573
20exp571 ...........
It would take many pages of paper to write down the possibilities for hemoglobin just to get down to 20exp50, and that is clearly an impossible feat to synthesize the unique compound out of such a large number as a mere 20exp50.
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» RE: HUMAN HEMOGLOBIN - CONCLUSION
Posted by: BillLoathingtheMilitaryClinton
» RE: HUMAN HEMOGLOBIN - CONCLUSION
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» RE: HUMAN HEMOGLOBIN - CONCLUSION
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» RE: HUMAN HEMOGLOBIN - AN IMPOSSIBLE SYNTHESIS
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» RE: HUMAN HEMOGLOBIN - AN IMPOSSIBLE SYNTHESIS
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» RE: HUMAN HEMOGLOBIN - AN IMPOSSIBLE SYNTHESIS
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Posted by: thirdmg on May 20, 2005 7:30 AM
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That means that, for them, the creation of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden in the book of Genesis was an historical event with an historical chain of connected events following it. Those include all of the consequences of sin arising from disobedience, the consequent need for a savior from sin and the appearance of that savior in the form of Jesus of Nazareth. In that rigid view, if the Garden of Eden did not happen, and if humans evolved instead, then all of the rest of the fundamentalist history-cosmology - everything they believe in - collapses in on itself. Ultimately, the beliefs in who Jesus was and what his mission was are placed into question.
Other Christian groups, such as the Catholic Church, skirt this dilemma by interpreting the Garden of Eden as an instructive myth concerning sin and the need for a savior, but not as literal history. In their interpretation, it is simultaneously possible to accept evolution of the human body and to accept the special creation of human souls. Thus, they have no reason to fear Darwinian evolution. Creationists, in contrast, were terribly upset when, a few years ago, John Paul II stated that "new knowledge has led to the recognition of the theory of evolution as more than a hypothesis."
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» RE: Why Fundamentalists Are Desperate
Posted by: Rod in 83706
» RE: Why Darwinists are Hateful, and Dishonest
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Posted by: Borfus on May 20, 2005 9:07 AM
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It would be interesting to audit the bank records of these people (especially those who "testified" in Kansas) to see if they had sudden and unexplained large deposits right about the times of their "conversions."
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Posted by: Salvor Hardin on May 20, 2005 8:09 PM
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SH
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Posted by: Michiganman on May 20, 2005 8:55 PM
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Posted by: aveteran on May 21, 2005 5:04 AM
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Posted by: mick on May 21, 2005 12:51 PM
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Posted by: socialist13 on May 21, 2005 1:11 PM
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Part of this "monkey bussiness" is caused by thoughs whom would wish to have "faith" involved in all aspects of life, including science.
I will not ignore of course the fact that the "first scientists" were looking for god, but they came to conclude that god is indeed life itself. This scientists still search today. OUr modern god seekers search without the use of holy books written by uneducated desert men 2000 years ago. Instead our modern god seekers use fact, and physical evidence so as to feel that what they belive is reality, not just a anaphoric vision.
To say that and invisible entity invented the cosmos in man's conception of time is entirely, to be frank close minded. But then again evreything is in interpretation. Look at Nietzche for example, or this opinion. You will undoubtedly interpret this how you will.
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Posted by: The_Man_with_the_Master_Plan on May 22, 2005 11:28 AM
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However, how often is it said, not just in the classroom but on T.V., in films etc. that so many million years ago this happened, that this species evolved from that species, and so on? It is all treated as something that must have actually happened, not as a possible way of explaining what is observed around us and making predictions. I am a creationist, and can co-exist quite peacefully with the theory of evolution, as long as it is understood for what it is. I think the science curriculum (as it is in England, anyway) is fine as it is in terms of knowledge, but more needs to be taught about the understanding of what science actually is and what it isn't.
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» RE: The problem with how science is taught
Posted by: thirdmg
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Posted by: Sojourner on May 22, 2005 4:04 PM
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We strive for agreement in epistemology. All we need for belief is freedom.
There's no need to have a contest between knowledge and belief -- unless you like to fight.
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Posted by: bigbuddhapuppy on May 23, 2005 9:31 AM
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Theology is the study of religious beliefs. Belief is not a theory. Belief is a hypothesis that have yet to be proven. So the Intelligent Design Hypothesis have yet to be proven. Religion is faith in a belief. Faith can not be proven whatsoever by definition. Faith is simply unprovable, either you have it or you don't. Theology can not be a physical science because it is based on faith(unprovable), and belief(faith, hypothesis). The Intelligent Design Hypothesis could be called "creationism" and again it was created by humans to promote their religious values.
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Posted by: AltTexan on May 23, 2005 10:54 AM
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And what is the 'natural world'? In practice, it's what science has found that it can study in a consistent manner. In effect, 'methodological naturalism' says no more than that science restricts its explanations to that of which it is capable of studying. And that is not a tautological statement, because it relies on the empirical: that that of which it has found it is capable of studying.
"Methodological naturalism always implies philosophical naturalism, the belief that there is nothing beyond the natural world. (This, say anti-ID scientists, is the fatal flaw in the argument.)"
Well, it IS the most fatal of the flaws. If plumbers restrict their explanations only to what happens in pipes, does this mean that plumbers are committed to the belief that there is nothing beyond pipes?
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Posted by: Alex123 on May 24, 2005 1:42 PM
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You people are so afraid you are dilusional.
Before you start listing your take on what science is, maybe you should learn about it. We hide that information in things called books.
PS: Evolutionary theory (along with gravitaional theory, electromagnetic theory, and so on) has made hundreds of predictions that are observable and repeatable. If you can disprove this, you will be a very rich man. Go for it.
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» RE: Things we don't want you to know
Posted by: Donkeykong
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Posted by: winwinsit on May 31, 2005 2:07 PM
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I would begin by teaching the students about empirical reasoning and critical thinking, then have them actually read portions of Darwin. I’d point out that Darwin never said we “descended from apes,” but that we and apes had a common ancestor. Then, I’d present creationism (and its close cousin ID) alongside many other accounts of our origins. They’d encounter myths of the world, animals, and people resulting from the Pagan “Great Mother,” Phan Ku’s cosmic egg of China’s myths, the Babylonian god Marduk, the Siberian raven (producing men) and spider (producing woman), the Mayan’s Tepeu and Gucamatz, Hindu’s breath of Vishnu, Buddhist kaplas, and African Odumare’s Agbon and Oye. And Jainism’s rejection of any beginning or ending of the universe.
For me, this would be REAL education: not just spoonfeeding homogenized “facts,” but presenting a body of information and challenging students to struggle with it.
Rees (Greg's buddy)
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Posted by: dennyduke@earthlink.net on May 19, 2005 2:06 AM
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Which appears to refer to an agency once engaged in the conversion of Native Americans to the religion of their killers.
Well, I guess things haven't changed much in Kansas.
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» RE: Consistent location
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Posted by: bookwoman on May 19, 2005 4:06 AM
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Why is it never mentioned that Darwin was an ordained Anglican clergyman. Can it be that this man of God would actually have laid the foundations for a Godless theory.
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» RE: Intelligent Design
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» RE: Intelligent Design
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» RE: Intelligent Design -- which god?
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» RE: Intelligent Design
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Posted by: tofocsend on May 19, 2005 4:19 AM
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This is a ridiculous tautology. Of course science is the search for explanations only in the natural world - the natural world is the only medium humans can observe and manipulate in a documented, repeatable manner - i.e. scientifically.
Science does not presume that "there is nothing beyond the natural world" (although some scientists doubtless believe this), only that science is not competent to explore whatever lies "beyond the natural world".
The simple fact is that there is no contradiction between evolution and creation. Evolution is a scientific theory to explain the diversity in life across space and time, and "intelligent design" (ID) is a philosophical theory to explain how life came to exist in the first place.
As soon as you introduce ID into a science discussion, you're no longer talking about science, since ID implies influence on natural processes that originates from "beyond the natural world" - i.e. outside the purview of science.
If schools want to discuss ultimate questions about how life originated, let them do it in a philosophy class. Transforming science from experiment and observation into mysterious forces that cannot be discussed in class destroys science and does an injustice to whatever mysterious forces may be at work in the universe.
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» RE: idiculous Tautology
Posted by: PeterPeter
» RE: idiculous Tautology
Posted by: Lava
» RE: idiculous Tautology
Posted by: Uncle Sam
» more tautologies...
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» RE: more tautologies...
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» RE:diculous Tautology
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» RE: diculous Tautology
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» RE: idiculous Tautology
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Posted by: jambro on May 19, 2005 4:41 AM
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As Muslim scientists we are perfectly comfortable with evolution and with a "divine" creator who mysteriously "guides" all natural processes, ideas interwoven in classical Islamic science of the 9th to 13th century. Subsequently, both Christian & Muslim worlds entered a conservative trend that only gradually shifted by a Renaissance in European thought based on rediscovery of Classic Hellenic thought transmitted through Arabic & Muslim scholarship.
Science is a process that has evolved through proposals, tests, and accepting theories as transitional, to be replaced by further refinements. Occasionally, major discoveries can shift the direction of our understanding, but are both rare & do not push the forward progress of science backward.
But many theories along the historical path need re-examination, as when proposed, the scientific community & overall level & distribution of knowledge was insufficient to understand or make use of them. But I doubt that creationism was among those theories.
Creationist tendencies are few and far between in the Muslim world, as even fundamentalists push for a modern reform, but free from Bush's agenda to change the Muslim world via his American fundamentalist vision of rude capital rule & greed at the expense of society & environment.
Science must resist fundamenatlist views that distort reality as much as turbo-capitalism & political agendas that exploit science for nefarious purposes.
For biology, a creation-evolution argument is obsolete as micro-molecular level of bio-chem/physics has reduced biological research to a process of digital statistical simulation, where mathematical calculations are more important than integration at organism or ecological levels. Even ecologists are marginalized, whether concerned about the natural balance as doing god's work of stewardship or saving spaceship earth from self destructing.
Reductionist science thus represents a threat to itself as much as from capitalism & fundamentalists, which threaten an ecologically viable human habitat, whatever a Creator's intent.
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» RE: from ridiculous to sublime & back, a Muslim perspective
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» RE: from ridiculous to sublime & back, a Muslim perspective
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» RE: from ridiculous to sublime & back, a Muslim perspective
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» RE: from ridiculous to sublime & back, a Muslim perspective
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» RE: from ridiculous to sublime & back, a Muslim perspective
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Posted by: ReverendYankee on May 19, 2005 6:13 AM
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» RE: *SIGH*
Posted by: socgrrrl
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Posted by: jobie1kno on May 19, 2005 6:24 AM
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Posted by: lamar on May 19, 2005 6:50 AM
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Then there is all this talk of letting the kids decide. These are kids that woke up on Christmas and believed that a man in a red suit left them presents, and later that a bunny hid the Easter eggs, and one time a fairy gave them tooth money. We are going to let the kids decide for themselves without teaching them how science really works? Doesn't sound like a fair shake at all.
Intelligent Design is nothing more than instructing kids to believe in a generic fill-in-the-name-later god.
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» RE: Jesus and the tooth fairy
Posted by: apodapa
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Posted by: 42Years on May 19, 2005 7:07 AM
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Posted by: monkeywrench on May 19, 2005 7:36 AM
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In Kansas City, hearings began today to determine how the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, and the Boogie Man have influenced Intelligent Design. Experts on the subject, Alice, from Wonderland, and someone known only as "The Wizard of Oz" are scheduled to testify this morning.
These hearings are expected to last either through Eternity, or until the arrival of Armegedden and The Rapture, whichever comes first.
Tune in later at "The Witching Hour," for film of this exciting event.
Thank you. And now, back to our previously-scheduled program, "As the Stomach Turns."
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» Yep! The REAL AGENDA that hides behind ID/Evolution
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» RE: BREAKING NEWS!
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» RE: BREAKING NEWS!
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Posted by: amiabledave on May 19, 2005 7:50 AM
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A theory is an assumption or system of assumptions, accepted principles, and rules of procedure, which may be based on limited information or knowledge, or thousands of irrefutable facts. It is devised to analyze, predict, or otherwise explain the nature or behavior of a specified set of phenomena. That's what science is about. Theories undergo constant revision as more tools and knowledge become available, bringing the theory ever closer to what, for all practical purposes, is the truth. Intelligent design does not not serve this purposes or the scientific method.
What I think must also be understood is the vast difference between deign and order. A watch, for example, is a designed mechanism. Anybody stumbling upon such a device knows, ipso facto, that such a mechanical device must have had a human designer. No so, however, with the universe, our solar system chemisty, DNA, or the intricate sculpturing of earth, mountains, and shore lines. These, just like stars and galaxies, are ordered systems created and carved out by a few natural laws of nature over uimaginable stretches of time.
Saying there is a God only removes the complexity problem by one step and shuts off further thinking--what science must never do.
And finallly, it is abiogenesis that deals with the transformation of non-living matter into living organisms. It's not a part of evolution.
Many, if not most, argue that religion serves many human needs that science cannot. And that is fine. What cannot be affirmed also cannot be negated. There are many places for philosophical speculation to take place. It just must not be in the science class if our civilization is to continue going forward.
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» RE: What I believe responsible persons in the non-scientific community should understand
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» RE: What I believe responsible persons in the non-scientific community should understand
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» The Non-Scientific Community Responds
Posted by: lamar
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Posted by: Andros on May 19, 2005 8:03 AM
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Science has delivered already. The quality and length of human life have increased because of science. We rationalists, scientists and progressives all want to share the knowledge and our conclusions. But, we always leave the door open for new ideas even if they contradict today's conclusions. However, those new ideas/theories must be testable, present evidence, and, themselves be open to revision! Obviously ID does not hold up to such a standard.
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» RE: The Dumbing Down of America
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Posted by: thirdmg on May 19, 2005 8:59 AM
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Here's a quote from the series' online FAQ about evolution:
"Isn't evolution just a theory that remains unproven?"
"In science, a theory is a rigorously tested statement of general principles that explains observable and recorded aspects of the world. A scientific theory therefore describes a higher level of understanding that ties "facts" together. A scientific theory stands until proven wrong -- it is never proven correct. The Darwinian theory of evolution has withstood the test of time and thousands of scientific experiments; nothing has disproved it since Darwin first proposed it more than 150 years ago. Indeed, many scientific advances, in a range of scientific disciplines including physics, geology, chemistry, and molecular biology, have supported, refined, and expanded evolutionary theory far beyond anything Darwin could have imagined."
You can find the FAQ here.
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Posted by: susan9390 on May 19, 2005 9:02 AM
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Science education is not about teaching the answers. It's about asking thought-provoking questions.
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» RE: SCIENCE EDUCATION
Posted by: WitchyNy
» RE: SCIENCE EDUCATION
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» RE: SCIENCE EDUCATION
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Posted by: doktordubbs on May 19, 2005 9:06 AM
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As a social worker as well, maybe I can get some funding for this new athiestic agency under the Faith-Based Initiative and start lecturing my clients about the non-existence of their gods and the lack of heaven and hell to reward/punish them.
One reason athiests (that I know, at least) DON'T like to be called a religion is that we reject the fundamental requirements for a religion (higher powers et al) as well as the platitudes and dogma (i.e. the man in the sky intelligently designed that factory farmed chicken you ate) that permeate organized religious practices.
Tax-exempt status would be nice, though...
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» RE: Athiesm as religion?
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Posted by: HeyMO on May 19, 2005 9:14 AM
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Posted by: padam on May 19, 2005 9:20 AM
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I just thank the Tooth Fairy that my teachers tought me evolution, otherwise I might be one of those stupid republicans.
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Posted by: WitchyNy on May 19, 2005 9:25 AM
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All I have found that the Bible states is that Man came from clay. Which it true. It is just that a lot of time and stuff happened in between...(like billions of years and evolution)
If you value your kids education, they are not in public schools anyway...they are just factories for training slaves.
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» RE: eligion if the opiate of the masses
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Posted by: gailnsteve on May 19, 2005 9:56 AM
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» RE: Problem with Intelligent Design Creationists
Posted by: apodapa
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Posted by: DennisDalrymple on May 19, 2005 10:22 AM
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What's all this fuss about Cretinism in Kansas I've been hearing about on the nes, and why are so many people in favor of Cretinism? Don't they know Cretinism is tragic?
It's one of God's mistakes. Don't those people in Kansas understand this? We don't need more Cretinism, we need less.
Off stage voice: Creationism, Roseannadanna; they're talking about Creationism in Kansas.
Roseannadanna: Never mind.
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» RE: Dennis Dalrymple
Posted by: billgascoyne@earthlink.net
» RE: Dennis Dalrymple
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Posted by: Iamnotafruittree on May 19, 2005 10:24 AM
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Posted by: enkidu on May 19, 2005 10:35 AM
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Once we win in Kansas and then through out the world and manage to get the Creator back in the classrooms, we should start arguing that the Earth is flat and force’em to drop the ridiculous spherical shape!
I am still upset about the pardon of Galileo! Lets retract that! It was, after all, given up too easily after only 500 years!
I am sure we could use the same witness from this Kansas trial to argue the flatness of the Earth.
Who’s on?
P.S. This is not my idea – GOD told me himself he never liked spherical objects!
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» RE: a glorious future
Posted by: apodapa
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Posted by: heech on May 19, 2005 11:32 AM
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While I am an aetheist it strikes me as odd that the most powerful faith in what is described as the most powerful God, in so many cases, can be so easily thrown out of its comfort zone by something so beautiful, mysterious, and complex as it's own creator's possible methods.
Are they so frightened by the idea of dinosaurs and apes and saber tooth tigers that their belief in God might be shattered if they looked closely at their own God's footprints of the only artifacts of a possible design that God has given them?
It's also odd to me that so many people simply don't understand what science can and cannot explain. If more Christians understood how physics can describe only the moments before the universe's inception but not the actual "creation" or "birth" (depending on which side of the coin you prefer) nor what was there before (though "something" must have been unless we subscribe to another kind of unknowable faith ... that something this big can arise from nothing, that non-being gave birth to being) they might take some comfort.
Physicists admit, openly, that they cannot describe what took place before the universe's coming into being and that they may never be able to (though they would love to find a unified theory that brought even that into play). This is hardly an argument for aetheism. It is much more an indication that since we may never know, God is just as good a bet.
Existence itself is the most perplexing and weird thought man can ponder. Hence the potency of the Intelligent Design and afterlife and God in Heaven, etc. etc.
Science tells us this: the universe began ... and we don't know how and we dont know why.
In the end it is always faith that believers should call upon. The "why" and not the "how" when communing with their God. Making laws that outlaw other systems of knowing can only undermine and dimminish that core sense of genuineness that a truly faith based and spiritual connection with God is supposed to be about.
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» RE: The Problem of Faith
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» RE: magic time
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Posted by: Geni on May 19, 2005 12:23 PM
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Posted by: Twist on May 19, 2005 12:55 PM
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Evolution, like any other scientific theory is God neutral. It is based on observations, and testable hypothesis's like "gene frequencies will change with respect to environmental pressures", and "fossils found in lower geological strata seem less complicated than those in higher strata", or "the coding for our proteins is nearly exactly the same from bacteria to human beings" for which the EVIDENCE is remarkably one sided. So, scientists who are apt to go with the evidence are remarkably one sided with respect to evolutionary theory.
The scientific method is In fact "materialistic" in that it limits us to testable hypotheses or "things that we can limit and observe, and most importantly see". Science doesn't exclude the possibility of God, it just can't deal with it directly. God is not directly observable in controlled testing. This doesn't make science a "religious belief", which would be based on faith, it makes it a methodological discipline for acquiring knowledge.
So, I have to ask, why are they attacking Evolution and not simply attacking the scientific method? Which limits scientific testing to what we can observe controllably (limited to materialism, or those "supernatural things that can be observed"). Is the scientific method going to be taught in these Kansas schools, if not are we going to have to replace it with wild faith based, biased religious guesswork.
What is a Biology teacher supposed to say to the kid that would ask "how Is ID theory derived from the scientific method?" when they are being taught, one after the other, in the same classroom?
Why should metaphysics be taught next to controlled science? Wouldn't it simply be more appropriate to teach children about design metaphysics in a philosophy class?
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» RE: The Scientific Method
Posted by: Rod in 83706
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Posted by: Bill Ware on May 19, 2005 1:09 PM
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It is only those who believe in Biblical mythology who have a problem with science. Those ID creationists who turn a blind eye to scientific observations such as the age of the earth, and scientific theories such as the theory of evolution, not only show disrespect for God by turning their backs on the realities of His marvelous creation, but also embarrass the rest of us who base our belief in God on reality not fantasy.
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» RE: Belief in God is based on the reality of the universe God created
Posted by: Sherman1970
» RE: Belief in God is based on the reality of the universe God created
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» RE: Belief... My dog is > than your god
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Posted by: mrbrown on May 19, 2005 2:02 PM
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I've always been resistant to criticism of our educational system. As a part of it, I’m well aware of how professional and dedicated my own collogues are. But… now that this issue has reared it’s ugly head and is moving well into the mainstream… as I see unbridled ignorance guiding our religious beliefs, our educational system and our government… it really makes me wonder where the teachers of the past several decades could have gone so wrong.
Several posters have mentioned the fact that this battle is being fought in Kansas. Yes, it is, but it is also an issue in states across this country. Please be careful not to adopt the typical East/West coast attitude that Kansas is some foreign country populated by hillbillies, cowboys and Indians. Sure we have some of all of the above, but this is a nationwide battle. And just as the Bush administration has been elected and re-elected, it can “happen here”. Bushites are thrilled that their electorate has become so incredibly ignorant. Who else would vote for them?
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» RE: I'm In Kansas & So Are You
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» RE: I'm In Kansas & So Are You
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» RE: I'm In Kansas & So Are You
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» RE: I'm In Kansas & So Are You
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Posted by: nemonemini on May 19, 2005 2:19 PM
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As to the Scopes Trial, it's worth keeping in mind that the textbook in question at the trial was filled with racist eugenic material. Even a secularist would find it hard to stomach what was being defended by the Darrows et al. Small wonder Bryan was critical of Social Darwinism!
The right approach is to defend the legacy of evolution, allow open debate over the mechanism of evolution between the problems of natural selection and the near 'scam' of intelligent design'.
John Landon
Debriefing Darwinism
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» RE: Deadlocked Darwin debate
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» RE: Deadlocked Darwin debate
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» RE: Deadlocked Darwin debate
Posted by: wanderwoman
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Posted by: Bill Ware on May 19, 2005 2:53 PM
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"To the people of Kansas:
"From an article about Dayton, TN in National Geographic and a more recent one in The Smithsonian, to articles earlier this year in Newsweek and Time, to the many newspaper pieces about the science of evolution vs "Intelligent Design," Creationism's latest manifestation, few reports can be found that fail to remind readers of how backward we are here in Rhea County, TN by mentioning our infamous 1925 Scopes "Monkey" Trial.
"Then, in an article about your upcoming kangaroo court proceedings, the writer referred to your putting evolution on trial as "Scopes II." My heart leapt at the thought that here might be a place ready to abandon scientific reality and embrace this ID pseudo-science mumbo jumbo, thus getting this 80 year monkey off our backs and putting the onus on yours instead. To the people of Kansas I say: Go for it!"
For some reason, they didn't publish it. BW
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Posted by: Duane on May 19, 2005 4:27 PM
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» RE: The Fraudulent Product
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Posted by: monkeywrench on May 19, 2005 5:14 PM
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Posted by: cynodont on May 19, 2005 6:25 PM
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To excerpt from Judge Overton's decision in that case:
"The defendants argue in their brief that evolution is, in effect, a religion, and that by teaching a religion which is contrary to some students' religious views, the State is infringing upon the student's free exercise rights under the First Amendment ...
"The defendants argue that the teaching of evolution alone presents both a free exercise problem and an establishment problem which can only be redressed by giving balanced treatment to creation science, which is admittedly consistent with some religious beliefs ...
"If creation science is, in fact, science and not religion, as the defendants claim, it is difficult to see how the teaching of such a science could "neutralize" the religious nature of evolution.
"Assuming for the purposes of argument, however, that evolution is a religion or religious tenet, the remedy is to stop the teaching of evolution, not establish another religion in opposition to it."
The full text of the decision is at Talk Origins .
The argument about balancing one religion with another clearly didn't fly with Overton. It will be interesting to see whether it flies in the inevitable U.S. Supreme Court case that ID has been "intelligently designed" to withstand.
Calvert's argument also has the consequence of allowing supernatural and religious "explanations" into every science class. Just replace the word "evolution" with any other science in the sentence, "Evolution as it's now taught in Kansas schools is based on methodological naturalism, that is, the search by science for explanations only in the natural world," go through the rest of Calvert's argument, and you're on your way to such winners as flood geology.
Perhaps we should also allow teachers to present evidence in favor of the "stork theory" of human reproduction. After all, all that stuff about sperm and eggs and DNA recombining -- that's just atheism.
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Posted by: jambro on May 19, 2005 6:26 PM
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Posted by: Donkeykong on May 19, 2005 6:35 PM
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2) Evolution is dishonest about its origions. Evolution depends 100% on Abiogenesis (life from non-life). Evolutionists will tell you that even if God created life it evolved but honestly if there was an uncontested God capable of making all life would evolution really be a viable theory?? Its like walking into a house after a gunshot to find the wife with a gun in her hand and then debating wether or not the thermal energy in the house all happened to coaless at one specific point to create a gunshot like wound.
3) Evolution depends on randomness for plausibility but lies about how unlikely complex life is. Your DNA is made up of 4 types of DNA-base, so if you randomly selected from 4 big piles of DNA-bases you would have a 25% chance of picking the right one, However you are made up of ~6 billion base pairs and 4^6 billion is a number significantly larger than the total number of particles in the universe. Mathematically impossible just slightly misses the mark, but mathematically impossible in 4 billion years within known methods of action seems to apply.
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» RE: Things Evolutionists don't want you to know.....
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» RE: Things Evolutionists don't want you to know.....
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» RE: Things Evolutionists don't want you to know.....
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» RE: Things Evolutionists don't want you to know.....
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» RE: Things Evolutionists don't want you to know.....
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Posted by: Donkeykong on May 19, 2005 6:36 PM
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5) Science is usually wrong. Its true. The catch is that once science does get it right it continues to get it right with a high degree of accuracy. But the majority of scientific theories throughout history have been wrong. Every scientific process known to man was previously explained by many false theories. Evoluiton is largely still in the getting it wrong stage or you would see it being done in the lab and predictions being made regarding the FUTURE rather than creative story telling regarding the past.
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» RE: Things evolutionists don't want you to know part 2
Posted by: SteveP
» RE: Things evolutionists don't want you to know part 2
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» RE: Things evolutionists don't want you to know part 2
Posted by: Doug1956
» RE: Things evolutionists don't want you to know part 2
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Posted by: apodapa on May 19, 2005 7:51 PM
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Posted by: Ivor on May 19, 2005 7:51 PM
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My experience is that basically, education is a brain washing exercise enforced by whatever pyramid is pushing the latest group think.
Religion of whatever culture is no more than another group think.
Science and all those other refugees from religion are just another group think.
What I think is what I feel ... and it is certainly not the Chimpanzee banging on a piano. It is most certainly not hell fire and brimstone and the inquisition.
We may all suppose ... that is our right if we are to have any illusion of autonomy ... well whatever ... it all is consigned to the compost heap of history. And a fat lot of good that has done the world.
In the meantime the screaming and the dying goes on ... and the pyramids of power are all saying ... think like me, and all will be sweetness and light ... muhwahhahahha!
Ivor Hughes
www.herbdatanz.com
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» RE: Ivor
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Posted by: SteveP on May 19, 2005 8:17 PM
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5 - Again, when people start talking about "you would see it being done in labs" and this fixation on the future (scientific theories often explain phenomena that we see, don't they? Part of the proof of a hypothesis is that it can be replicated - and in that sense that it can predict future events - but pretending that explaining the past is not a valid scientific pursuit is...forgive me...absurd) And in fact this is a myth too. We see labratory examples of the wheels of evolution all the time, from fruit flies to geraniums. We mess around with the genes of rodents, breed everything from orchids to race horses.
Where there is reason to explore 'evolution' are the relative roles of natural selection, random mutation, cataclysmic events and so on. What the rates of speciation and such are. But the existence of evolutionary forces seems pretty obvious, testable, replicatable, falsifiable and peer tested. Arguments of observed phenomena with arguments about probability seem, ignorant. The thing is there, it happens. That you can't make the math work, doesn't make it wink out of existence - it means you need to check your math. For instance, without assuming that non-random events are random.
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» RE: Chestnuts part II
Posted by: Donkeykong
» RE: Chestnuts part II
Posted by: wanderwoman
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Posted by: gunnercade on May 19, 2005 8:48 PM
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Well, how about this, my ID friends: the Raelians (remember them? the ones who claimed they cloned a baby who mysteriously disappeared?) have a hypothesis about the origin and evolution of complex life. Why don't we teach *that* in schools? It has intelligence, and it has design. Well, it has nothing to do with the Bible, but aren't you all saying that this is *not* about sneaking back the Bible in the classroom?
I have another question for the ID crowd. Certainly some of you heard about the phenomenon of drug resistant strains of bacteria or viruses. Hmmm. How does that happen, if not by natural selection? Does resistance happen because God messes with bacteria to get more people killed? Wow. Quite a picture of God you have. As Plutarch said in "On superstition", it's better not to believe in God than to have such an unworthy opinion of Him... I (and much smarter people than me) always thought that a God capable to arrange such perfect and magnificent complexity through natural laws was much more admirable than a God who needs to tinker with his creation at the drop of a hat. The latter strikes me as an underachiever...
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» RE: As someone said, "Intelligent Design" (ID) is neither...
Posted by: BillLoathingtheMilitaryClinton
» RE: As someone said, "Intelligent Design" (ID) is neither...
Posted by: Donkeykong
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Posted by: BillLoathingtheMilitaryClinton on May 20, 2005 2:00 AM
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There are 20 different amino acids each of which could be substituted anywhere on the chain of 574. For example, changing only one of these amino acids leads to the often fatal disease known as sickle cell anemia.
Question #1: How many fundamental particles are there in the universe?
Answer: ~10exp80
Question #2: What is a reasonable definition of statistical impossibility?
Answer: ~1 chance in 10exp50
Question #3: What volume would 10exp50 grains of sand equal?
Answer: They would fill a sphere the size of our solar system 15 times over.
Question #4: What is the probability of finding one specially marked grain of sand in 15 solar system sized spheres full of sand on the first and ONLY try while blindfolded?
Answer: 1 chance in 10exp 50.
(NOTE: We defined the problem as ONE TRY AND ONE TRY ONLY. YOU DO NOT GET AN INFINITE NUMBER OF ATTEMPTS. ONLY ONE. Therefore the probability is one in 10exp50, not "1".)
Now, how many different ways can 20 amino acids be combined in a sequence of 574 amino acids?
20exp574
Human hemoglobin is precisely ONE of that supernumber, 20exp574, which far exceeds the number of fundamental particles in the universe.
But we have only started with 574.
WHY "574"? What would be so special about "574" if you did not know that was where hemoglobin would be found?
20exp573 is not much smaller than 20exp574
20exp572 is trivially smaller than 20exp573
20exp571 ...........
It would take many pages of paper to write down the possibilities for hemoglobin just to get down to 20exp50, and that is clearly an impossible feat to synthesize the unique compound out of such a large number as a mere 20exp50.
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» RE: HUMAN HEMOGLOBIN - CONCLUSION
Posted by: BillLoathingtheMilitaryClinton
» RE: HUMAN HEMOGLOBIN - CONCLUSION
Posted by: Farbanti
» RE: HUMAN HEMOGLOBIN - CONCLUSION
Posted by: BillLoathingtheMilitaryClinton
» RE: HUMAN HEMOGLOBIN - AN IMPOSSIBLE SYNTHESIS
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» RE: HUMAN HEMOGLOBIN - AN IMPOSSIBLE SYNTHESIS
Posted by: rmonsees
» RE: HUMAN HEMOGLOBIN - AN IMPOSSIBLE SYNTHESIS
Posted by: bigbuddhapuppy
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Posted by: thirdmg on May 20, 2005 7:30 AM
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That means that, for them, the creation of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden in the book of Genesis was an historical event with an historical chain of connected events following it. Those include all of the consequences of sin arising from disobedience, the consequent need for a savior from sin and the appearance of that savior in the form of Jesus of Nazareth. In that rigid view, if the Garden of Eden did not happen, and if humans evolved instead, then all of the rest of the fundamentalist history-cosmology - everything they believe in - collapses in on itself. Ultimately, the beliefs in who Jesus was and what his mission was are placed into question.
Other Christian groups, such as the Catholic Church, skirt this dilemma by interpreting the Garden of Eden as an instructive myth concerning sin and the need for a savior, but not as literal history. In their interpretation, it is simultaneously possible to accept evolution of the human body and to accept the special creation of human souls. Thus, they have no reason to fear Darwinian evolution. Creationists, in contrast, were terribly upset when, a few years ago, John Paul II stated that "new knowledge has led to the recognition of the theory of evolution as more than a hypothesis."
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» RE: Why Fundamentalists Are Desperate
Posted by: Rod in 83706
» RE: Why Darwinists are Hateful, and Dishonest
Posted by: BillLoathingtheMilitaryClinton
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Posted by: Borfus on May 20, 2005 9:07 AM
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It would be interesting to audit the bank records of these people (especially those who "testified" in Kansas) to see if they had sudden and unexplained large deposits right about the times of their "conversions."
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Posted by: Salvor Hardin on May 20, 2005 8:09 PM
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SH
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Posted by: Michiganman on May 20, 2005 8:55 PM
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Posted by: aveteran on May 21, 2005 5:04 AM
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Posted by: mick on May 21, 2005 12:51 PM
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Posted by: socialist13 on May 21, 2005 1:11 PM
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Part of this "monkey bussiness" is caused by thoughs whom would wish to have "faith" involved in all aspects of life, including science.
I will not ignore of course the fact that the "first scientists" were looking for god, but they came to conclude that god is indeed life itself. This scientists still search today. OUr modern god seekers search without the use of holy books written by uneducated desert men 2000 years ago. Instead our modern god seekers use fact, and physical evidence so as to feel that what they belive is reality, not just a anaphoric vision.
To say that and invisible entity invented the cosmos in man's conception of time is entirely, to be frank close minded. But then again evreything is in interpretation. Look at Nietzche for example, or this opinion. You will undoubtedly interpret this how you will.
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Posted by: The_Man_with_the_Master_Plan on May 22, 2005 11:28 AM
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However, how often is it said, not just in the classroom but on T.V., in films etc. that so many million years ago this happened, that this species evolved from that species, and so on? It is all treated as something that must have actually happened, not as a possible way of explaining what is observed around us and making predictions. I am a creationist, and can co-exist quite peacefully with the theory of evolution, as long as it is understood for what it is. I think the science curriculum (as it is in England, anyway) is fine as it is in terms of knowledge, but more needs to be taught about the understanding of what science actually is and what it isn't.
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» RE: The problem with how science is taught
Posted by: thirdmg
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Posted by: Sojourner on May 22, 2005 4:04 PM
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We strive for agreement in epistemology. All we need for belief is freedom.
There's no need to have a contest between knowledge and belief -- unless you like to fight.
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Posted by: bigbuddhapuppy on May 23, 2005 9:31 AM
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Theology is the study of religious beliefs. Belief is not a theory. Belief is a hypothesis that have yet to be proven. So the Intelligent Design Hypothesis have yet to be proven. Religion is faith in a belief. Faith can not be proven whatsoever by definition. Faith is simply unprovable, either you have it or you don't. Theology can not be a physical science because it is based on faith(unprovable), and belief(faith, hypothesis). The Intelligent Design Hypothesis could be called "creationism" and again it was created by humans to promote their religious values.
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Posted by: AltTexan on May 23, 2005 10:54 AM
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And what is the 'natural world'? In practice, it's what science has found that it can study in a consistent manner. In effect, 'methodological naturalism' says no more than that science restricts its explanations to that of which it is capable of studying. And that is not a tautological statement, because it relies on the empirical: that that of which it has found it is capable of studying.
"Methodological naturalism always implies philosophical naturalism, the belief that there is nothing beyond the natural world. (This, say anti-ID scientists, is the fatal flaw in the argument.)"
Well, it IS the most fatal of the flaws. If plumbers restrict their explanations only to what happens in pipes, does this mean that plumbers are committed to the belief that there is nothing beyond pipes?
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Posted by: Alex123 on May 24, 2005 1:42 PM
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You people are so afraid you are dilusional.
Before you start listing your take on what science is, maybe you should learn about it. We hide that information in things called books.
PS: Evolutionary theory (along with gravitaional theory, electromagnetic theory, and so on) has made hundreds of predictions that are observable and repeatable. If you can disprove this, you will be a very rich man. Go for it.
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» RE: Things we don't want you to know
Posted by: Donkeykong
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Posted by: winwinsit on May 31, 2005 2:07 PM
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I would begin by teaching the students about empirical reasoning and critical thinking, then have them actually read portions of Darwin. I’d point out that Darwin never said we “descended from apes,” but that we and apes had a common ancestor. Then, I’d present creationism (and its close cousin ID) alongside many other accounts of our origins. They’d encounter myths of the world, animals, and people resulting from the Pagan “Great Mother,” Phan Ku’s cosmic egg of China’s myths, the Babylonian god Marduk, the Siberian raven (producing men) and spider (producing woman), the Mayan’s Tepeu and Gucamatz, Hindu’s breath of Vishnu, Buddhist kaplas, and African Odumare’s Agbon and Oye. And Jainism’s rejection of any beginning or ending of the universe.
For me, this would be REAL education: not just spoonfeeding homogenized “facts,” but presenting a body of information and challenging students to struggle with it.
Rees (Greg's buddy)
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