COMMENTS: 69
In Praise of Prosperity
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The language of economic competitiveness is not ideologically neutral, but instead designed to promote policies that serve the interests of big corporations and their investors. If progressives want to reframe the debate over America's future, they will have to reframe its very terms. A first step: start talking about prosperity.
When making arguments in support of their favored policies -- be it massive tax cuts or rolling back environmental safeguards -- conservatives focus almost exclusively on economic growth. What most Americans don't understand is that economic growth does not necessarily make us more prosperous as a society.
Consider the research of economists Thomas Piketty and Emmanuel Saez: while we've witnessed several periods of immense growth in recent decades, the average real income of the bottom 90 percent of American taxpayers -- in other words, most of us -- actually fell by 7 percent between 1973 and 2000.
As Americans, we are raised to believe from an early age that growth is an over-arching imperative of a capitalist economy. You don't have to be an economist to get it -- when graphs point upward, the economy's good. So we are expected to dedicate ourselves to that goal, even if it requires ceding our own personal well-being. Just think about the rhetoric surrounding living wage laws: sacrifice your very basic needs for the good of the corporations, i.e. America. We're all Corporate Citizens, and we have to advance the national project of achieving growth at all costs.
But for progressives, this narrative muddies the waters and obscures questions that are important to all Americans. Growth-related statistics, for example, tell us nothing about inequality. If the wages of 99,990 workers were to decline by a half percent while the fortunes of ten members of the Walton family increased by 20 or 30 billion dollars, the average growth for that population of 100,000 would be quite impressive indeed. But that's little solace for anyone who is not a Walton.
The self-serving politics of growth has grown ever more dominant since the emergence of the new conservative movement under Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher, creating a lopsided system that increasingly serves the greed of the few at the expense of the well-being of the many. According to Ed Wolff, author of Top Heavy, the share of national wealth controlled by the top 1 percent of households increased from 20.5 percent in 1979 to 38.5 percent in 1998, while the bottom 40 percent of American households experienced a drop in their share of national net worth, from 0.9 percent in 1983 to only 0.2 percent in 1998.
This alarming trend is only going to get worse in George Bush's "Ownership Society." According to the Los Angeles Times, during 2004 and the first couple of months of 2005, wages didn't keep pace with inflation for the first time since the 1990 recession. In other words, working Americans effectively took an across-the-board pay cut -- and, more importantly, at a time when the economy grew by a healthy four percent, and "corporate profits hit record highs as companies got more productivity out of workers while keeping pay raises down."
According to ILO statistics (from 2001), Americans are the most productive workers in the world -- a fact that is often touted by the 'boot-straps' folk on the right as proof of our system's superiority. But we're not the most productive workers per hour; we merely work more hours than any other industrialized country, and our hours increase almost every year. It's the kind of productivity that is built primarily on the backs of the middle class and the poor. Squeezing every last drop of productivity out of working people to maximize growth is the essence of the Wal-Mart model. It's good for the economy, but not for the people who live within it.
The Prosperous Nation
In order to challenge this growth-obsessed narrative, progressives have to do more than point to facts and figures, however damning they might be. They must reframe the debate in terms of prosperity. Prosperity is less concerned about the GDP or per capita income, but the quality of life afforded by a given economy. Within such a discourse, economic growth is still important, not as an end in itself but as a means to achieve true prosperity.
Discussing the economy in terms of a prosperous society opens up the debate to a more inclusive and accurate picture of what Americans want. If our goal were to be the most prosperous nation, we'd be forced to grapple with the fact that the United States ranks the highest among the highly developed countries in each of the seven measures of inequality the index tracks. While we enjoy the second highest GDP in the world (excluding tiny Luxembourg), we rank dead last among the 20 most developed countries in fighting poverty and we're off the chart in terms of the number of Americans living on half of the median income or less.
Among industrialized nations, the United States is at the bottom in functional literacy, even as only about a quarter of Americans graduate from college. Despite spending twice as much per capita on healthcare as most developed countries, only Ireland and Denmark have lower life expectancies. We're number one in the percentage of population without access to healthcare. One of eight Americans don't survive to reach age 60, which leaves us at the bottom of the pile in terms of life expectancy in the developed world.
We're overworked, underpaid, and with little or no financial security. No wonder that the National Institutes of Mental Health found that in any given year, 10 percent of Americans suffer from depression and over 13 percent from some type of anxiety disorder.
We may be rich as hell as a nation, but a great many of us are struggling just to keep it together. A truly prosperous country, on the other hand, ensures the greatest benefits to the greatest number of people.
Prosperity is Competitive
Here's the kicker: a prosperous society is also an economically competitive society. Contrary to what the Bush administration may claim, giving Americans a decent shot at the good life is not incompatible with building a strong economy. The world leader in per capita GDP is Norway, a nation that offers its citizens long vacations, generous paternity leave programs, strict environmental regulations and well-developed social safety net.
According to rankings put out by the World Economic Forum -- an industry group of big multinationals -- the most competitive economy in the world is a social democracy: Finland. So are seven of the 10 most competitive economies in the Forum's Global Competitiveness Index. And seven of the 10 most 'economically free' countries in the Economic Freedom Index -- which is published annually by the uber-conservative Heritage Foundation and the Wall Street Journal -- are social democracies. The Fraser Foundation -- a Canadian version of Heritage -- publishes a similar index and, lo and behold, seven of its 10 most competitive economies are also social democracies.
The next time some right-winger claims social benefits reward laziness and inertia, remember to point to Bernard Wasow's research. The economist with the Century Foundation found that between 1970 and 2000, per capita GDP increased by 64 percent in the United States and 60 percent in France: "In America, [however,] this came about because productivity per worker rose by 38 percent and hours worked per worker rose by 26 percent. In France, it came about because productivity rose by 83 percent while hours worked fell by 23 percent."
Fighting Right-wing Rhetoric
The best antidote to the right's post Cold-War triumphalism is an economic debate that centers not on growth but prosperity. The defeat of Communism was, for many, a vindication not of capitalism generally, but of a Darwinian concept of capitalism following Milton Friedman's model. Today, maintaining economic growth and competitiveness has become conflated with an entire gamut of pro-rich policies: privatization, deregulation, keeping taxes at a level that squeezes government, maintaining low wages and "labor flexibility," and not being too strict about those pesky issues of corporate accountability.
In reality, economic competitiveness is as much a question of technological savvy; the availability of capital; a strong rule of law; a healthy and educated workforce; extensive infrastructure and a good location on global trade routes. In other words, a competitive economy requires greater investment in the public sphere, not less -- especially in education, high-tech R & D and infrastructure /www.alternet.org/story/21400/>.
Conservatives love to make any argument about the effects of their policies into a false debate between capitalism and socialism -- with liberals cast in the role of bona fide pinkos. This is just not true. A progressive vision for America embraces the free market, but also recognizes the need to curb the worst excesses of the system. Capitalism is a lot like Winston Churchill's view of democracy: it's the worst possible arrangement, except for all the others.
Many Americans are tired, stressed out, depressed, hooked on drugs, relatively poorly educated and with few opportunities for a better life. They are ready to hear something new, something other than the usual scare-tactics of the right. Progressives can win the current economic debate by making one simple point: A truly prosperous country ensures the greatest benefits to the greatest number of people.
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Posted by: bettsoff on Apr 25, 2005 2:08 AM
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The UI does indeed exist, but progressives have failed to point out that not every working man can be a UI. It's statistically impossible under our system. Yet, millions of Americans are chasing after Mr. Bootstrap, goaded by the misinformation of conservatives and fallaciously convinced that if they just work hard enough and sacrifice a little more, that they will become a UI. They waste a lifetime trying to beat the odds without ever stopping to ask just what the odds are or why the system is set up so that "happiness" is only achieved by the odds-beating few. It's progressives' job to make people ask, "Why is the UI held up as the model when 99.8% of us will never be one? Why are we chasing the dream we are?"
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» RE: Forgot one thing
Posted by: joncehart
» RE: Forgot one thing
Posted by: mstenger
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Posted by: dennyduke@earthlink.net on Apr 25, 2005 3:55 AM
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You're right, they're wrong.
What about child mortality, poverty, other actual measures of the country’s real, whole, economy?
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» RE: The real economy
Posted by: susan9390
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Posted by: dennyduke@earthlink.net on Apr 25, 2005 4:47 AM
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So that in every country, by definition, the percentage of population above & below median or half of median is exactly the same. I'd guess that's not what you're after.
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» INTRODUCTION TO STATISTICS
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» An explanation
Posted by: ari_bodini
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Posted by: phoinex on Apr 25, 2005 4:52 AM
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Steve Knox
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» RE: Joshua Holland's Article
Posted by: Kanefire
» NO ONE IS ENTITLED TO SUCCESS
Posted by: susan9390
» RE: NO ONE IS ENTITLED TO SUCCESS
Posted by: phoinex
» RE: Joshua Holland's Article
Posted by: ari_bodini
» ARI BODINI'S COMMENT
Posted by: susan9390
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Posted by: WONDERWALEYE on Apr 25, 2005 9:09 AM
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MAY THE LOVE OF JESUS BE WITH YOU!!!
[this has two meanings]
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» Perspective Appreciated
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» RE: ICH AS HELL!!!!!! POSTER'S WORDS HAVE INSIGHT!!!!!
Posted by: bettsoff
» RE: ICH AS HELL!!!!!! POSTER'S WORDS HAVE INSIGHT!!!!!
Posted by: susan9390
» is your god bigger than....
Posted by: thehousedog
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Posted by: Sandra on Apr 25, 2005 11:32 AM
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» CONSUMERISM
Posted by: susan9390
» RE: CONSUMERISM
Posted by: elmysterio
» RE: CONSUMERISM
Posted by: fferris
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Posted by: Sandra on Apr 25, 2005 11:36 AM
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» RE: New Definitions
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Posted by: eaanders on Apr 25, 2005 11:41 AM
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» EQUITY???
Posted by: susan9390
» RE: QUITY???
Posted by: Devere
» EQUITY VS. PROSPERITY
Posted by: susan9390
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Posted by: Grampop on Apr 25, 2005 11:45 AM
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1. All contributions come from a fund appropriated by congress.
2. Each voter has control over an equal share of this fund to support his candidates.
Further explanation available at
http://www.lincolninitiative.org
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» THE CART BEFORE THE HORSE
Posted by: susan9390
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Posted by: LeeAnnG on Apr 25, 2005 1:58 PM
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Fortunately, they were able to get temp jobs in Baltimore just as their department shut down. However, in spite of years of office management experience, a great deal of on-going education, good job skills, and positive references, they have been unable to get "real" new jobs for months. The husband sent out over 70 applications in the past couple of months and has had no responses. Repeat: NO responses. He is highly educated, intelligent, and experienced. His current supervisor tells him he is overqualified for his job.
In Rochester there were recent job postings in the local paper. They wanted people with a four year degree to work for $8.00 an hour. There is something wrong with this picture. 45 million Americans have no health insurance. We most certainly do not have the best health care in the world; our infant mortality rate is one of the highest in the "developed" countries. We pay twice as much for care when we can get it.
Our work weeks are longer, our pay lower, our benefits fewer, and vacations shorter than many other countries. Americans may be overweight, smoke too much, and get too little exercise, but much of this may be due to working too many hours and being under too much stress.
Phoinex seems to be of the opinion that no matter what the society we live in, it's always up to the individual to overcome the odds and succeed. Isn't that blaming the victim and letting the oppressors off the hook? If you aren't willing to work a 60 hour week (which if you work at a Walmart or many, many other jobs, is impossible because of the way they screw around with your schedule), commute 3 hours each way, give up your leisure time, and find a way to pay $800 to $1,000 a month for health insurance, does that make you somehow a slacker?
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» RE: LeeAnnG
Posted by: thereader
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Posted by: Iron Yuppie on Apr 25, 2005 2:37 PM
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Hollands also seems to cite an anomaly as proof that all of our increased productivity is due to longer working hours. While France, Denmark, and Belgium work less and have higher per/hour productivity, the remainder of the EU is well below per/hour productivity. And productivity growth in the US per/hour of labor has been growing faster on average in the past 20 years than in EU member states, including the four top EU performers.
I also fail to see how Hollands noting that 20% of Americans have college degress is significant at all. This figure rates at the top of all industrialized nations for % of population with college degrees.
Holland’s challenge to Friedman is ridiculous, Friedman is a Nobel Lauriet and a genius, Hollands is just another left-wing hack, a debate between the two would be humiliating to put it kindly.
Like an earlier contributor said, we are entitled to the opportunity to be prosperous not prosperity. Far too many Americans think things will just fall into their laps, thank God for the immigrants who make this place dynamic.
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» RE: A few Holes in Holland’s arguments.
Posted by: pedro
» RE: A few Holes in Holland’s arguments.
Posted by: Devere
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Posted by: susan9390 on Apr 25, 2005 2:48 PM
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I've been saying for ages that the reason we can't seem to make ourselves heard is that our rhetoric sucks. "Prosperity" is a fine piece of rhetoric. (Or at least I thought it was until I read some of the ignorant comments.)
I would like to identify one lack in the article, however. It is not changes and comparisons in median income that interest me because all of that is relative to inflation rates, changes in the international value of the dollar, etc. What concerns me is the decline of the middle class. It is absolutely true that the rich are getting impossibly richer and the poor are getting unbearably poorer. As the welfare roles increase, we get more new billionaires per year than we can afford. Notice I did not say millionaires; they're downright commoners any more.
I would be very interested in the changes in standard deviation of American incomes over the years rather than just the changes in the median. In a culture that places high value on its middle class, as this one was structured to do, that value should stay pretty much the same over time.
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Posted by: Chiron on Apr 25, 2005 3:07 PM
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Posted by: elmysterio on Apr 25, 2005 4:56 PM
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» RE: Spelling
Posted by: eduardofojo
» RE: Spelling
Posted by: elmysterio
» my point
Posted by: Chiron
» LITERACY
Posted by: susan9390
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Posted by: SteveBreeze on Apr 25, 2005 4:59 PM
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» RE: Capitalism is a great tool and a lousy religion
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Posted by: gideonh on Apr 25, 2005 5:37 PM
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that phrase speaks volumes about america and the world.
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Posted by: chitijdth on Apr 26, 2005 4:57 AM
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Posted by: RCS on Apr 26, 2005 1:25 PM
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America was once known as the land of opportunity. Many of our ancestors came here from Europe or other countries. In their home countries these people were poor, and considered lazy, shiftless, etc. In other words, the same as phoinex describes current Americans.
Yet once they hit these shores, they were able to transform themselves into innovators, hard-workers, the most productive citizens on the planet.
Did they pass through some magical field in the Atlantic Ocean? Or is it possible that the economic system in the USA was more amenable to them being productive?
Given that the latter is more likely, then isn't it possible that the economic system that we are pursuing is responsible for the creation of this new "personally irresponsible" class of people? Or is there maybe a new magnetic wave that is being beamed onto these individuals?
I look at our economic system and I see no job opportunities for those people who don't go to college. Yet who says that everyone is capable of college? 75 years ago those same people could earn a good living working in a factory, they could buy a house and have a safe existence. Today they're lucky to find temporary work at minumum wage, and the only way to make ends meet is to accept the public assistance offered to them.
I think that a lot of people in this country are benefitting at the direct expense of ther underclass. While it's great to be able to buy a $5 toaster, why is it so bad that this toaster costs $20, yet is made by people in this country rather than by someone in China (making $1/day and sending the rest of the profits to their military machine)? If our money is kept close to home its more likely to be spent here. I doubt that Chinese worker is contributing to my economic success with his purchases.
And wouldn't more expensive, and thus less disposable goods be good in other ways? Maybe we'd see a return to the appliance repairman, a semi-skilled position that has vanished with the advent of throwaway appliances. And maybe we'd have to waste less of our resources on things like trash dumps.
My basic point though is that it's amazing how populations of the "lazy" seem to ebb and flow with the economic conditions in this country. That tells me that the job makes the person more than the person makes the job.
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» RE: Just lazy? Ridiculous
Posted by: Iron Yuppie
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Posted by: mstenger on Apr 26, 2005 2:25 PM
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» RE: mstenger
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» RE: mstenger
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Posted by: Salaczar on Apr 26, 2005 6:22 PM
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Posted by: Sojourner on Apr 26, 2005 10:25 PM
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We don't need answers. We need leadership that listens. Corporate execs, whether running GM or the Defense Department, have learned to just take the money and run.
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Posted by: matyd on Apr 26, 2005 10:50 PM
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Posted by: brodix on Apr 27, 2005 10:59 AM
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What this culture of greed creates is a tragedy of the commons. It would be as if every time a road is built, everyone runs out and claims as much as possible. The result would be that everything would be paved over, but travel would still be difficult. As it is, practically everything is monetized, yet the economy is still about to seize up.
The economy is a convective cycle, with ideas, labor, material rising up and wealth, order, security precipitating down. When more rises then can be effectively invested, or precipitates back down, storm clouds of surplus wealth build up at the top. While everyone criticizes government borrowing, no one considers where this revenue stream would go otherwise. Only as much money can be saved as can be invested. Beyond that and it just inflates asset values. Government debt amounts to a nationalization of surplus wealth and it is used for necessary structural spending that often supports the private sector. As it is simply loaned, though and the public revenue stream is being directed into further building this supply of surplus wealth, it is not a stable situation.
A liberal Laffer Curve needs to be proposed that shows spending extra wealth on infrastructure and helping to increase the health, education and productivity of all citizens would do far more to increase the overall strength of the economy then simply turning the economy into a pedestal on which to pile large amounts of extra wealth for the high priests of Capitalism to lord over. It isn't a matter of regulating greed, but making it increasingly unacceptable.
Money and government are two sides of the same coin. One is rights, the other is responsibilities. It is a lack of maturity for people to worship money and hate the government that issues it. Money is a tool, not a god. If we use it as sparingly as possible and maintain a more organic economy, we would need much less government and it would have less ability to grow out of control.
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» RE: Some ideas on how to do it over
Posted by: londonleft
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Posted by: dajson on Apr 27, 2005 1:13 PM
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Posted by: londonleft on Apr 28, 2005 9:18 AM
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Posted by: SiliconDreams on May 1, 2005 10:36 AM
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The paramount moral goal of a government can never be equality because not everyone's achievement is the same. The paramount goal of a government must be fairness and opportunity. This country has the highest degree of social mobility in the world, and it is natural that as a result it will be very unequal - the skills, work ethic and intelligence of people is also very unequal, so the best will earn the highest wages. Compare this to a society like your beloved Scandinavia (or some place like Britain) where equality made social mobility close to zero (yes, everyone is similar, but your chances of success starting from a low position are pretty much zero). I would much rather live in the US because here I know I can build my future, not have it handed to me by the rest of society.
Yes, I am an exception and I am biased. I came to this country on a scholarship at 17 and I was a technology millionaire by 22. Why? Because I worked 16 hours a day to keep up with my studies at the same time as launching a company, while my classmates were boozing away at frats! And now they will comment on how "lucky" I am...
Those who do not succeed cannot accept that this lack of success is a result of their inability to achieve. So they start talking about how an oppressive society is holding them down and how only "a lucky few" end up on top. This provides an easy exit from psychological depression (sort of like religion provides an easy understanding of the world). Wake up. 70% of the Forbes400 are entirely self-made. Show me another developed country where the richest 400 citizens are 70% self-made.
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» RE: quality is not a moral nor a desirable goal
Posted by: snarej
» RE: quality is not a moral nor a desirable goal
Posted by: SiliconDreams
» RE: quality is not a moral nor a desirable goal
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: quality is not a moral nor a desirable goal
Posted by: SiliconDreams
» RE: Equality is not a moral nor a desirable goal
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: quality is not a moral nor a desirable goal
Posted by: susan9390
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Posted by: snarej on May 1, 2005 4:37 PM
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» RE: ight and Wrong
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Posted by: Alfredo bremont on Jun 6, 2005 3:33 PM
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Posted by: bettsoff on Apr 25, 2005 2:08 AM
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The UI does indeed exist, but progressives have failed to point out that not every working man can be a UI. It's statistically impossible under our system. Yet, millions of Americans are chasing after Mr. Bootstrap, goaded by the misinformation of conservatives and fallaciously convinced that if they just work hard enough and sacrifice a little more, that they will become a UI. They waste a lifetime trying to beat the odds without ever stopping to ask just what the odds are or why the system is set up so that "happiness" is only achieved by the odds-beating few. It's progressives' job to make people ask, "Why is the UI held up as the model when 99.8% of us will never be one? Why are we chasing the dream we are?"
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» RE: Forgot one thing
Posted by: joncehart
» RE: Forgot one thing
Posted by: mstenger
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Posted by: dennyduke@earthlink.net on Apr 25, 2005 3:55 AM
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You're right, they're wrong.
What about child mortality, poverty, other actual measures of the country’s real, whole, economy?
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» RE: The real economy
Posted by: susan9390
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Posted by: dennyduke@earthlink.net on Apr 25, 2005 4:47 AM
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So that in every country, by definition, the percentage of population above & below median or half of median is exactly the same. I'd guess that's not what you're after.
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» INTRODUCTION TO STATISTICS
Posted by: susan9390
» An explanation
Posted by: ari_bodini
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Posted by: phoinex on Apr 25, 2005 4:52 AM
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Steve Knox
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» RE: Joshua Holland's Article
Posted by: Kanefire
» NO ONE IS ENTITLED TO SUCCESS
Posted by: susan9390
» RE: NO ONE IS ENTITLED TO SUCCESS
Posted by: phoinex
» RE: Joshua Holland's Article
Posted by: ari_bodini
» ARI BODINI'S COMMENT
Posted by: susan9390
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Posted by: WONDERWALEYE on Apr 25, 2005 9:09 AM
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MAY THE LOVE OF JESUS BE WITH YOU!!!
[this has two meanings]
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» Perspective Appreciated
Posted by: Kanefire
» RE: ICH AS HELL!!!!!! POSTER'S WORDS HAVE INSIGHT!!!!!
Posted by: bettsoff
» RE: ICH AS HELL!!!!!! POSTER'S WORDS HAVE INSIGHT!!!!!
Posted by: susan9390
» is your god bigger than....
Posted by: thehousedog
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Posted by: Sandra on Apr 25, 2005 11:32 AM
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» CONSUMERISM
Posted by: susan9390
» RE: CONSUMERISM
Posted by: elmysterio
» RE: CONSUMERISM
Posted by: fferris
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Posted by: Sandra on Apr 25, 2005 11:36 AM
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» RE: New Definitions
Posted by: pedro
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Posted by: eaanders on Apr 25, 2005 11:41 AM
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» EQUITY???
Posted by: susan9390
» RE: QUITY???
Posted by: Devere
» EQUITY VS. PROSPERITY
Posted by: susan9390
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Posted by: Grampop on Apr 25, 2005 11:45 AM
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1. All contributions come from a fund appropriated by congress.
2. Each voter has control over an equal share of this fund to support his candidates.
Further explanation available at
http://www.lincolninitiative.org
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» THE CART BEFORE THE HORSE
Posted by: susan9390
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Posted by: LeeAnnG on Apr 25, 2005 1:58 PM
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Fortunately, they were able to get temp jobs in Baltimore just as their department shut down. However, in spite of years of office management experience, a great deal of on-going education, good job skills, and positive references, they have been unable to get "real" new jobs for months. The husband sent out over 70 applications in the past couple of months and has had no responses. Repeat: NO responses. He is highly educated, intelligent, and experienced. His current supervisor tells him he is overqualified for his job.
In Rochester there were recent job postings in the local paper. They wanted people with a four year degree to work for $8.00 an hour. There is something wrong with this picture. 45 million Americans have no health insurance. We most certainly do not have the best health care in the world; our infant mortality rate is one of the highest in the "developed" countries. We pay twice as much for care when we can get it.
Our work weeks are longer, our pay lower, our benefits fewer, and vacations shorter than many other countries. Americans may be overweight, smoke too much, and get too little exercise, but much of this may be due to working too many hours and being under too much stress.
Phoinex seems to be of the opinion that no matter what the society we live in, it's always up to the individual to overcome the odds and succeed. Isn't that blaming the victim and letting the oppressors off the hook? If you aren't willing to work a 60 hour week (which if you work at a Walmart or many, many other jobs, is impossible because of the way they screw around with your schedule), commute 3 hours each way, give up your leisure time, and find a way to pay $800 to $1,000 a month for health insurance, does that make you somehow a slacker?
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» RE: LeeAnnG
Posted by: thereader
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Posted by: Iron Yuppie on Apr 25, 2005 2:37 PM
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Hollands also seems to cite an anomaly as proof that all of our increased productivity is due to longer working hours. While France, Denmark, and Belgium work less and have higher per/hour productivity, the remainder of the EU is well below per/hour productivity. And productivity growth in the US per/hour of labor has been growing faster on average in the past 20 years than in EU member states, including the four top EU performers.
I also fail to see how Hollands noting that 20% of Americans have college degress is significant at all. This figure rates at the top of all industrialized nations for % of population with college degrees.
Holland’s challenge to Friedman is ridiculous, Friedman is a Nobel Lauriet and a genius, Hollands is just another left-wing hack, a debate between the two would be humiliating to put it kindly.
Like an earlier contributor said, we are entitled to the opportunity to be prosperous not prosperity. Far too many Americans think things will just fall into their laps, thank God for the immigrants who make this place dynamic.
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» RE: A few Holes in Holland’s arguments.
Posted by: pedro
» RE: A few Holes in Holland’s arguments.
Posted by: Devere
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Posted by: susan9390 on Apr 25, 2005 2:48 PM
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I've been saying for ages that the reason we can't seem to make ourselves heard is that our rhetoric sucks. "Prosperity" is a fine piece of rhetoric. (Or at least I thought it was until I read some of the ignorant comments.)
I would like to identify one lack in the article, however. It is not changes and comparisons in median income that interest me because all of that is relative to inflation rates, changes in the international value of the dollar, etc. What concerns me is the decline of the middle class. It is absolutely true that the rich are getting impossibly richer and the poor are getting unbearably poorer. As the welfare roles increase, we get more new billionaires per year than we can afford. Notice I did not say millionaires; they're downright commoners any more.
I would be very interested in the changes in standard deviation of American incomes over the years rather than just the changes in the median. In a culture that places high value on its middle class, as this one was structured to do, that value should stay pretty much the same over time.
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Posted by: Chiron on Apr 25, 2005 3:07 PM
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Posted by: elmysterio on Apr 25, 2005 4:56 PM
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» RE: Spelling
Posted by: eduardofojo
» RE: Spelling
Posted by: elmysterio
» my point
Posted by: Chiron
» LITERACY
Posted by: susan9390
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Posted by: SteveBreeze on Apr 25, 2005 4:59 PM
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» RE: Capitalism is a great tool and a lousy religion
Posted by: elmysterio
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Posted by: gideonh on Apr 25, 2005 5:37 PM
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that phrase speaks volumes about america and the world.
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Posted by: chitijdth on Apr 26, 2005 4:57 AM
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Posted by: RCS on Apr 26, 2005 1:25 PM
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America was once known as the land of opportunity. Many of our ancestors came here from Europe or other countries. In their home countries these people were poor, and considered lazy, shiftless, etc. In other words, the same as phoinex describes current Americans.
Yet once they hit these shores, they were able to transform themselves into innovators, hard-workers, the most productive citizens on the planet.
Did they pass through some magical field in the Atlantic Ocean? Or is it possible that the economic system in the USA was more amenable to them being productive?
Given that the latter is more likely, then isn't it possible that the economic system that we are pursuing is responsible for the creation of this new "personally irresponsible" class of people? Or is there maybe a new magnetic wave that is being beamed onto these individuals?
I look at our economic system and I see no job opportunities for those people who don't go to college. Yet who says that everyone is capable of college? 75 years ago those same people could earn a good living working in a factory, they could buy a house and have a safe existence. Today they're lucky to find temporary work at minumum wage, and the only way to make ends meet is to accept the public assistance offered to them.
I think that a lot of people in this country are benefitting at the direct expense of ther underclass. While it's great to be able to buy a $5 toaster, why is it so bad that this toaster costs $20, yet is made by people in this country rather than by someone in China (making $1/day and sending the rest of the profits to their military machine)? If our money is kept close to home its more likely to be spent here. I doubt that Chinese worker is contributing to my economic success with his purchases.
And wouldn't more expensive, and thus less disposable goods be good in other ways? Maybe we'd see a return to the appliance repairman, a semi-skilled position that has vanished with the advent of throwaway appliances. And maybe we'd have to waste less of our resources on things like trash dumps.
My basic point though is that it's amazing how populations of the "lazy" seem to ebb and flow with the economic conditions in this country. That tells me that the job makes the person more than the person makes the job.
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» RE: Just lazy? Ridiculous
Posted by: Iron Yuppie
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Posted by: mstenger on Apr 26, 2005 2:25 PM
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» RE: mstenger
Posted by: elmysterio
» RE: mstenger
Posted by: billwald
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Posted by: Salaczar on Apr 26, 2005 6:22 PM
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Posted by: Sojourner on Apr 26, 2005 10:25 PM
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We don't need answers. We need leadership that listens. Corporate execs, whether running GM or the Defense Department, have learned to just take the money and run.
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Posted by: matyd on Apr 26, 2005 10:50 PM
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Posted by: brodix on Apr 27, 2005 10:59 AM
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What this culture of greed creates is a tragedy of the commons. It would be as if every time a road is built, everyone runs out and claims as much as possible. The result would be that everything would be paved over, but travel would still be difficult. As it is, practically everything is monetized, yet the economy is still about to seize up.
The economy is a convective cycle, with ideas, labor, material rising up and wealth, order, security precipitating down. When more rises then can be effectively invested, or precipitates back down, storm clouds of surplus wealth build up at the top. While everyone criticizes government borrowing, no one considers where this revenue stream would go otherwise. Only as much money can be saved as can be invested. Beyond that and it just inflates asset values. Government debt amounts to a nationalization of surplus wealth and it is used for necessary structural spending that often supports the private sector. As it is simply loaned, though and the public revenue stream is being directed into further building this supply of surplus wealth, it is not a stable situation.
A liberal Laffer Curve needs to be proposed that shows spending extra wealth on infrastructure and helping to increase the health, education and productivity of all citizens would do far more to increase the overall strength of the economy then simply turning the economy into a pedestal on which to pile large amounts of extra wealth for the high priests of Capitalism to lord over. It isn't a matter of regulating greed, but making it increasingly unacceptable.
Money and government are two sides of the same coin. One is rights, the other is responsibilities. It is a lack of maturity for people to worship money and hate the government that issues it. Money is a tool, not a god. If we use it as sparingly as possible and maintain a more organic economy, we would need much less government and it would have less ability to grow out of control.
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» RE: Some ideas on how to do it over
Posted by: londonleft
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Posted by: dajson on Apr 27, 2005 1:13 PM
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Posted by: londonleft on Apr 28, 2005 9:18 AM
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Posted by: SiliconDreams on May 1, 2005 10:36 AM
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The paramount moral goal of a government can never be equality because not everyone's achievement is the same. The paramount goal of a government must be fairness and opportunity. This country has the highest degree of social mobility in the world, and it is natural that as a result it will be very unequal - the skills, work ethic and intelligence of people is also very unequal, so the best will earn the highest wages. Compare this to a society like your beloved Scandinavia (or some place like Britain) where equality made social mobility close to zero (yes, everyone is similar, but your chances of success starting from a low position are pretty much zero). I would much rather live in the US because here I know I can build my future, not have it handed to me by the rest of society.
Yes, I am an exception and I am biased. I came to this country on a scholarship at 17 and I was a technology millionaire by 22. Why? Because I worked 16 hours a day to keep up with my studies at the same time as launching a company, while my classmates were boozing away at frats! And now they will comment on how "lucky" I am...
Those who do not succeed cannot accept that this lack of success is a result of their inability to achieve. So they start talking about how an oppressive society is holding them down and how only "a lucky few" end up on top. This provides an easy exit from psychological depression (sort of like religion provides an easy understanding of the world). Wake up. 70% of the Forbes400 are entirely self-made. Show me another developed country where the richest 400 citizens are 70% self-made.
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» RE: quality is not a moral nor a desirable goal
Posted by: snarej
» RE: quality is not a moral nor a desirable goal
Posted by: SiliconDreams
» RE: quality is not a moral nor a desirable goal
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: quality is not a moral nor a desirable goal
Posted by: SiliconDreams
» RE: Equality is not a moral nor a desirable goal
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: quality is not a moral nor a desirable goal
Posted by: susan9390
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Posted by: snarej on May 1, 2005 4:37 PM
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» RE: ight and Wrong
Posted by: SiliconDreams
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Posted by: Alfredo bremont on Jun 6, 2005 3:33 PM
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