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GodAssault
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This summer, I joined the rush hour in San Bernardino. Every day, descending the final hill from Los Angeles into the fastest growing region in California, I tuned into Christian radio station K-Wave. The station broadcast lessons on Christ-sanctioned financial planning as well as sermons on faith-rooted marriages. But its mission of missions was to map out, just the way the Weather Channel describes approaching storm fronts, the end of the world now bearing down upon us.
The deep voice of Pastor Chuck Smith filled my car each morning. Founder of Calvary Chapel, a "mega-church" with a publishing company, Bible colleges, and franchises in every state, Pastor Chuck inspired two followers to write the best-selling Left Behind novels about the Apocalypse. Soon obsessed with the station, I started wishing my Democratic friends in L.A. would join me in K-Wave's freeway congregation.
Each evening I returned home to find them wringing their hands over the possibility that a born-again Christian president, who laced his speeches with secret signals to fellow worshippers and considered praying his most important action before starting an unjust war, might be re-elected -- and re-elected by religious nuts so stupid they believed Sesame Street's Bert and Ernie were lovers.
As it happened, those "nuts" won the election for the president. Ill-prepared newscasters promptly relabeled them "moral voters," showing how little they understood about the new religion practiced in Calvary Chapel.
Democrats could, of course, have turned on K-Wave (or its equivalent), but even then they might not have grasped the most basic element of Calvary Chapel: It isn't guided by the outside world's concept of the Christian right's stern and unforgiving morals code.
While Calvary Chapel encourages Christians to enjoy "fellowship" with God, the doctrine it preaches is guided not by any ordinary sense of morality but by a gruesome vision of the end of the world and a set of instructions for how to deal with it.
Listening to that doctrine each morning and evening, I felt the sensations American audiences first discovering Hong Kong action flicks must have known: a fascination with the exotic combined with awe at the extreme violence it displayed. Granted, my perspective is unusual. Unlike most of my Democratic friends, I was raised in a church that practiced New Thought Christianity just up the freeway from Pastor Chuck's compound. It offered a new agey cocktail of faith, drawing heavily from Buddhism, Hinduism, and transcendentalism. Just the type of stuff Calvary Chapel abhors.
My childhood of crystals and sunshine made Calvary Chapel-style evangelism, with its emphasis on conversion and its belief in testifying to God's power, something strange and deeply mysterious. I felt like an anthropologist investigating a new culture as I listened to its broadcasts, and what I found makes me refuse to picture the organization as an army of moral voters.
Faith, California-Casual Style
If my liberal friends had accompanied me to the Calvary Chapel branch in Livermore to meet other listeners they might have wondered if we were in a real church. The squat, one-room chapel, with its rows of chairs, resembled a conference room. I, though, recognized it immediately as California-casual-style worship. New Thought had had the same laid-back vibe at its gatherings.
Under a 1960's suburban sun, spiritual wanderers established my childhood church. Around the same time Pastor Chuck began ministering to Jesus freaks and Republicans in Orange County. My church stagnated in the 1980's. Its meditation garden now sits empty. Pastor Chuck's congregation, on the other hand, grew until Calvary Chapel took up a campus as large as a mall and spread beyond the country's borders.
My friends might have been surprised that as I sat in this chapel, where the outline of a dove on the back wall replaced a traditional altar, I wasn't thinking about morality or stupidity. I was simply staring at the people around me who wore jeans, shushed babies, and tried not to kick over their purses on the floor. When the pastor asked everyone to greet each other, a woman buzzed up to urgently give me important bullet points from her life. One: She met her husband at church. Two: Her new baby was named Grace. I could escape the future of lonely desperation that she'd narrowly avoided, she implied, by finding a man here.
The Left Behind books serve as Calvary Chapel's literary touchstone, even though they're closer in quality to Star Wars paperbacks than anything penned by St. Augustine or St. Thomas More. In the series, certain people are physically sucked up to heaven, leaving those who don't make the celestial cut to suffer through the last, grim days of life on Earth. The people in the chapel had the feel of those left behind not by God, but by our world. They weren't losers, but they'd lost out.
Religious scholar Donald E. Miller, who studied Calvary Chapel for his book Reinventing American Protestantism, found its congregations to be dominated by blue-collar Americans. Only 20% of church members had a college degree. Over half of the pastors Miller surveyed had grown up, or spent parts of their lives, in single-parent homes; 70% had parents who abused drugs or alcohol. The numbers were similar for the congregants, almost a third of whom claimed to have been physically and/or sexually abused.
In my friends' world, such numbers would be as alien as the Rapture itself, but I suspect Pastor Chuck knows them intimately. His mission is to embrace those the world leaves behind and promise them a new chance in the after-life.
The dove on the chapel wall, I decided, wasn't the typical symbol of peace found in many Christian art works. In the Old Testament, a dove lands on Noah's Ark after the entire earth has been flooded, proving there's land nearby and providing hope for a new life to all the creatures crammed onto the wooden boat. In the same way Calvary Chapel's dove offered hope not of peace but of a change in fortune, at least for those who belong to the church.
Playing by God's Rules
What liberals might have learned from visiting Livermore, listening to K-Wave, or reading Calvary Chapel-inspired web sites is that "morality," at least as they imagine it, is beside the point. In fact, Calvary Chapel-style Christianity is a complex system with intricate rules. Think of it as God's game. Instead of XBox's MechAssault, this is GodAssault.
If you play the game correctly, you'll receive that change in fortune. If not here, then in the after-life.
The guidebook to the game's moves is the Bible; the key steps to winning are in the Book of Revelation. Conventional notions of "morality," in which people adapt standards of right and wrong to an ever-changing world, don't hold here. Neither do the teachings from my childhood, which emphasized enlightenment and a sense of knowing God through your mind and heart.
In GodAssault, your conscience is not your guide.
The Bible is.
Like many evangelical forms of Protestantism, Calvary Chapel preaches that everything a Christian needs is written, word by holy word, in the Bible. In Miller's surveys, everyone from Calvary Chapel's pastors to its recent converts said they took the Bible literally. If you read the Book of Revelation as the physical, material truth, then you come to see God's game as one played in a swirling, planet-devouring vortex of blood and violence.
Pastor Chuck's main radio work involved describing this unstoppable Apocalypse, doling out a new chapter each morning. It begins as the Antichrist arrives on Earth -- some time after the Jews establish a Holy Land -- to annihilate a large percentage of the planet's population. Then, Christ comes to judge the living and the dead, sending the bad guys to a just and unspeakably gory end.
Calvary Chapel's Apocalypse, however, bears a resemblance to the fantasy game Dungeons and Dragons. Just as "D and D" players excel by learning complicated strategies and knowing arcane sub-rules of sub-rules, Calvary Chapel Christians win by following a set of instructions taken straight from the Bible. They must know the secret passwords, identify their enemies correctly, and understand what lies beneath the various layers of evil. False prophets will become popular in the end times, for example, and those who don't want to be damned will recognize these poseurs and refuse to worship with them.
Whether heaven's riches are 72 virgins or a beautiful set of angel wings, Calvary Chapel won't say. Prizes aren't important to the game, because winning is defined as not losing; not having to endure unthinkable tortures. And not losing rests on adhering to all of the rules.
My friends in L.A. wanted to know what this new "morality" meant in terms of American politics. Was there some way to maneuver on this new political landscape, dominated by religion, and reclaim "the moral voter"?
Leading Democrats were also looking to put new moral moves in their political playbook. At a Roe v. Wade commemoration Hillary Clinton announced that her once-firm stance on legal abortion had turned Jell-o soft, showing exactly what churches like Calvary Chapel mean to politicians. Clinton and other party leaders are now determined to win over Calvary Chapel-style evangelicals by taking stands they imagine those Christians will consider "moral." In the meantime, they hope to preserve their wider political philosophies in the shadows.
But take heed, oh keepers of the Democratic word, I say unto you: Lo, do not give into the temptation of moral appearances that will not bear fruit in the next elections. Change your view on abortion and they still won't vote for you, Hillary, not if you don't play the total version of GodAssault.
My aunt often complained that Eve, her cleaning lady, rambled on about God and the end of the world while dusting. Eve had dropped out of community college to marry a drug addict, divorced, and then married an alcoholic. She couldn't stop having children or getting fired from part-time jobs.
I liked Eve. As she told me about how she struggled to afford milk for her kids and gas for her car, I realized that, in this world with its rules, Eve was on the losing team. But there was hope in Pastor Chuck's board game of a religion.
I didn't ask Eve if she attended a Calvary Chapel, but I did hear her repeat the game's rules. And why shouldn't she? If Eve followed the game's demands, she would stop suffering one day. She would win. For all sorts of struggling souls the promise of eternal salvation, and victory over those left behind, is stronger than any weak pledge a politician could make.
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Posted by: jasbinsek on Apr 16, 2005 12:36 AM
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You write only for yourself, or for whatever small clique of friends you belong to that logs on and reads what you write. There was NO CONTENT to the article.
If someone presents themselves as a writer to a serious public forum (as AlterNet would like to claim it is) then I'd say that you should have something to say. Masturbating your so called "ideas" into a mirror is not writing, is not commentary, and is not especially useful.
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» RE: My, aren't we precious!
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» RE: My, aren't we precious!
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» RE: My, aren't we precious!
Posted by: stevefoagardner
» RE: My, aren't we precious!
Posted by: BriMan
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Posted by: sam on Apr 16, 2005 3:38 AM
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As a former fan of Christian radio, I think you articulated /validated some of my mixed feelings toward this medium of connecting isolated listeners to a daily church.
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Posted by: WONDERWALEYE on Apr 16, 2005 6:38 AM
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If you combine that with recieveing the HOLY SPIRIT [in other words you must be born again] you then can't be mislead!!! You will be able to discern false teachings from GODS TEACHINGS. In the mean time the church teachings shall at least alert you to the fact that there is more to this life then what you can see and there is a reason for living. Then it is up to you to make the decision of whether to take out the road map to GOD'S KINGDOM [the BIBLE] or just listen to man. [man will fail you everytime] One GREAT thing about the CHRISTIAN CHURCHES is that no matter what they preach, they don't change the BIBLE. So the decision is up to you!!! Start with the NEW TESTIMENT and then make your decision as to the TRUTH and then make your decision whether your going to give your whole strength, heart, mind, and soul to GOD. When GOD sees your heart[truth] and finds that you have given yourself to HIM wholey and fully, it will be then that you shall recieve the HOLY SPIRT. It is then that you become free of man and are lead by GOD. This is not understood by unbelievers. You can't stand on the outside and look in and understand what it's all about!!!! I hope this helps when you start talking about a churches stand. Remember that it's just a man standing on the pulpit!!! MAY THE LOVE OF JESUS BE WITH YOU!!! [this has two meanings]
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» RE: THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE!!!!!!
Posted by: windhorse
» RE: THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE!!!!!!
Posted by: windhorse
» RE: THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE!!!!!!
Posted by: lamar
» Troll under the bridge alert. . .
Posted by: stevefoagardner
» RE: Troll under the bridge alert. . .
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» RE: THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE!!!!!!
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» Too Many !!!!
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» RE: THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE!!!!!!
Posted by: Edward George
» RE: THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE!!!!!!
Posted by: twerquie
» RE: THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE!!!!!!
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Posted by: thegreenknight on Apr 16, 2005 7:59 AM
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» RE: So It's Fear
Posted by: opit
» RE: So It's Fear
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Posted by: Ogsball on Apr 16, 2005 8:19 AM
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I saw Neil Simon's _God's Favorites_ (contemporary rendition of Job) this weekend and it reminded me that the entire "Rapture" theology is about as Anti-Christ as any that's come down the pike. When I announced this at church you would have thought I violated all Ten Commandments and rejected the Apostle's Creed. I wish the rapture would happen and take all these annoying people away--it would be a 1000 years of peace.
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» RE: I absolutely loved your article!
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» RE: I absolutely loved your article!
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» RE: I absolutely loved your article!
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» RE: I absolutely loved your article!
Posted by: mungojelly
» RE: I absolutely loved your article!
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» RE: I absolutely loved your article!
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» RE: I absolutely loved your article!
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» RE: I absolutely loved your article!
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Posted by: jusfishn on Apr 16, 2005 9:19 AM
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There is no chapter or verse written by GOD. Everything is written by others, who may have had something to gain by writing the words as they did. Their intent may have been as simple as obtaining a larger following to their preaching, or it could have been a desire to subjegate their existing followers with fear mongering.
Whatever the reason for the writing, the bible is still just a history book. God wrote nothing. No he did not write the "Ten Commandments", Moses said god gave them to him. Truth be known Moses probably wrote them.
Religion as practiced today by all preachers/priests is a demonstration in "how to subijate the masses".
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» RE: A very good post, thanks
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Posted by: Mar on Apr 16, 2005 10:10 AM
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» RE: Heal Thyself Bible Babblers
Posted by: danopacki
» RE: Heal Thyself Bible Babblers
Posted by: pckurp
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Posted by: WONDERWALEYE on Apr 16, 2005 10:26 AM
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CHURCH CAN BE A WONDERFUL NEST
But unless you venture out of your nest and use your BIBLE for wings, you will never soar, with distruction most probable.
THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND
The temple of GOD is not in your church, but in your HEART, MIND, AND SOUL. Don't balme your church if you are lukewarm, sinful and weak. Give your all to GOD and ask that you become new and the old shall pass away.
ALL OF THE PROBLEMS WE FACE ARE TRULY BASED ON VANITY, BUT THE INTENT OF OUR HEART IS ETERNAL.
SIN IS LIKE THE SEA AGAINST THE LAND. IN TIMES OF TURMOIL THE WAVES TRY TO OVERTAKE AND WASH IT AWAY. BUT THE ROCK OF GOD DOESN'T MOVE.
FAITH
FAITH without works is likened to potential without making any effort, JUST A WASTE!!
THE BIBLE
Man's tool to tap MIRACLES.
LIFE
Life not understood is full of anxiety, brings trial of every kind, offers little peace and usually ends in disaster. Life understood brings fear of GOD, which brings wisdom, which brings understanding, which brings peace and ends in eternal life.
CHRISTIANS THAT REMAIN COLD OR LUKEWARM WILL SPEND ETERNITY, HOT AS HELL.
THERE ARE ONLY TWO TYPES OF HUMAN LIFE
One type follows the LORD and has an inner peace and happiness. The other follows many things and the decay thereof makes them miserable.
WHAT IS HUMAN LIFE?
Life is a period of time given to humamity to go through the changes and be sifted out into the proper catagory for the here-after.
AMEN!!!!!!
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» RE: IN THE EARLY MORNING HOURS!!!!
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» RE: IN THE EARLY MORNING HOURS!!!!
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» RE: IN THE EARLY MORNING HOURS!!!!
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» RE: IN THE EARLY MORNING HOURS!!!!
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» RE: IN THE EARLY MORNING HOURS!!!!
Posted by: theseeker
» RE: IN THE EARLY MORNING HOURS!!!!
Posted by: opit
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Posted by: orion113 on Apr 16, 2005 11:00 AM
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Genuine faith, faith that works, is not motivated by fear, but by love.
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» RE: Where's the love
Posted by: opit
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Posted by: freebright on Apr 16, 2005 1:23 PM
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» RE: A view from Europe
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» RE: A view from Europe
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Posted by: Tankerdeath on Apr 16, 2005 2:01 PM
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» RE: An English Major Speaks OUT!
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» RE: An English Major Speaks OUT!
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» RE: An English Major Speaks OUT!
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Posted by: jhkrantz on Apr 16, 2005 7:08 PM
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The Rapture is a thoroughly non-biblical theory (I've tried to provide a succinct rebuttal of the idea here No Such Thing as the Rapture but the notion of the Rapture isn't the problem. The Rapture is just another symptom of a larger problem centered in an image of God that would have been unrecognizable to Jesus.
"New Agey" protestantism like that experienced by the author in childhood provides no answer to this distortion of Christianity. Neither does agnosticism. The only Christianity that can unseat this violent faith from the hearts of its adherents is one that is grounded in the true Jesus, the one really presented in the Scriptures. Faith in Jesus can be radical, committed, and liberal. (See Jim Wallis' book, "God's Politics - Why the Right Gets It Wrong and the Left Doesn't Get It.) But a Christianity that treats the Scriptures with the disdain of the author will never make a dent in the teachings of the Calvary Chapel.
Want to change the course of Christian politics in this country? Get to know the Bible as it REALLY is, not as it's been distorted by the Evangelical Right.
Jeff Krantz
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» RE: A Sad Oversimplification
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» RE: A Sad Oversimplification
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» RE: A Sad Oversimplification
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» RE: A Sad Oversimplification
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» RE: A Sad Oversimplification
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» RE: A Sad Oversimplification
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Posted by: Karieson on Apr 17, 2005 12:33 AM
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» RE: This article makes an important point.
Posted by: elmysterio
» RE: Just because YOU'VE never heard His or felt His presence
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» RE: This article makes an important point.
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Posted by: Sandy on Apr 17, 2005 4:45 AM
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I did not like what the school planted in my children's brains. I believe we live in a world of technology not a world where we have to be constantly aware of God's destruction of us all. I raised my kids in Los Angeles on the San Andreas Fault and we learned everything we could on how to survive any disaster that hit us on the average of every 2 years; forest fires, earthquakes, floods etc.
I believe in evolution and the survival of the fittest and it became my aim to train my kids in every possible survival method. This involved keeping their brains functioning at top level. The Bible was traded for Science books including Darwin. I found a great secular college prep school for the last 6 years and my kids were human sponges for knowledge. We dumped the television and all religious crap and we truly became reborn in the world of intelligence.
The bible is a great diverter of brain development and I can say no more about it.
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» RE: Prercious time wasted
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» RE: Precious time wasted
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Posted by: danopacki on Apr 17, 2005 5:47 AM
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» RE: Call them the Konservative Khristian Kult
Posted by: powellm
» Your time will come
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» RE: Your time will come
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» RE: Your time will come
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» RE: Your time will come
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» RE: Your time will come
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» RE: Call them the Konservative Khristian Kult
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» RE: Call them the Konservative Khristian Kult
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» RE: Call them the Konservative Khristian Kult
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» RE: Call them the Konservative Khristian Kult
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» RE: Call them the Konservative Khristian Kult
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» RE: Call them the Konservative Khristian Kult
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» RE: Call them the Konservative Khristian Kult
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» RE: Call them the Konservative Khristian Kult
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» RE: Call them the Konservative Khristian Kult
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» RE: Call them the Konservative Khristian Kult
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» RE: Call them the Konservative Khristian Kult
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» RE: Call them the Konservative Khristian Kult
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Posted by: lamar on Apr 17, 2005 7:03 AM
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Ride in the cavalry
Shoot the artillery
I may never fly over the enemy
But I'm in the Lord's army!
And what a terrible, overzealous, abusive, hypocritical army it is......
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Posted by: powellm on Apr 17, 2005 9:03 AM
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Fundamentalism cultivates fear, hatred, aggression, war, and supports the power structures of racism, sexism, and intolerance. It imposes a narrow worldview that is anti-science and repressive of intellectual curiosity. It allows over-fed, under-educated, mass-consumers to avoid personal responsibility for the state of the world through belief in "faith-based" ideologies that place "All things in Gods hands". Worst of all, fundamentalists see all issues in simplistic, black-or-white, "you are either one of us or an enemy" terms.
It is a basic matter of "Faith" that all things, ALL THINGS, are either "of God", or "of Satan". This worldview allows no intellectual middleground. None. This is a basic tenet. All matters, all persons, all events, are either "of God", or "of Satan".
This is a dangerous philosophy in a complex world of diverse cultures, religions, belief systems and nuclear weapons. The real world is a place of complexity, subtlety, variety, multiplicity, nuance and difference. The fundamentalist is uniquely ill-equipped to embrace the "real" world on its own terms and as a result fears it. To address this basic fear fundamentalism resorts to simplistic, ideological rationalizations in much the same way primitive man has always invented myths and legend to explain the natural world.
I was raised in a Christian fundamentalist environment. The 2004 US presidential election has made me realize that many people do not realize the power and influence of Christian fundamentalism in US culture and politics.
Sam Harris has written a very important book "The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason ". This is a terriffic book for anyone willing think objectively about the notion of "Faith".
I also recommend "The Clash of Fundmentalisms" by Tariq Ali .
Religiosity in Government is a recipe for disaster. As mankind has moved beyond the flat-world theory, alchemy, and the serious use of astrology as a means to make decisions, so too must we abandon the irrationality of religion as a component of public policy.
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» Fundamentalism = Doctinal distortion
Posted by: Wells
» RE: Fundamentalism = Disaster
Posted by: paschn@comcast.net
» RE: Fundamentalism = Disaster
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» RE: Fundamentalism = Disaster
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Posted by: stevefoagardner on Apr 17, 2005 9:20 AM
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It would be wise for those who consider themselves Christians to realize that temporal power has never been good for the church. It always breeds corruption and leads to persecution of some Christians by other (politically well-connected) Christians in the name of the "true" Christianity. What is "true Christianity"? Whatever the politically connected Christians say it is. That's what. Better hope it isn't too different from your own views. ;-) As a non-believer I take comfort in the fact that Christians always reserve their worst punishments for those who believe almost the way they do. ;-)
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» RE: These movements come and go in America
Posted by: powellm
» RE: These movements come and go in America
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» RE: These movements come and go in America
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» RE: These movements come and go in America
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Posted by: Moonbat on Apr 17, 2005 10:50 AM
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Although I agree with the thought above, I can't help but think that we MUST reach out to these disinfranchised wretches.
Fundamentalism is idolatry of the worst sort.
Thanks for listening.
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» RE: Moonbat
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Posted by: joncee on Apr 17, 2005 3:23 PM
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The difference is, that faith is something you believe without substantiation by means of reason, logic, or scholarship. Superstition is something someone else believes without substantiation by means of reason, logic, or scholarship.
Sheesh!
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» RE: Faith/Superstition ?
Posted by: powellm
» IS THAT WHEN STEVIE WONDER WAS TAKING HEROIN??????
Posted by: WONDERWALEYE
» Or why Jimmy Swagart is Boinking HOs??????
Posted by: joncee
» RE: IS THAT WHEN STEVIE WONDER WAS TAKING HEROIN??????
Posted by: pcushnie
» Can WONDERWALEYE find "GOD" in Constitution? Nada...
Posted by: GWisaCrackHead
» DON'T WE WISH IN THE YEAR OF OUR LORD WAS STILL COMMON USAGE???
Posted by: WONDERWALEYE
» RE: IS THAT WHEN STEVIE WONDER WAS TAKING HEROIN??????
Posted by: skyryder37
» RE: Faith/Superstition ?
Posted by: tinto
» T-E-N-E-T
Posted by: joncee
» RE: Faith/Superstition ?
Posted by: opit
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Posted by: dedwardloftin on Apr 17, 2005 10:47 PM
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I found your article interesting. I've spent many years in and around this religious "community", and have watched the apocalyptic mindset overwhelm the Evangelical church.
There have been many studies done on the history and sociology of apocalyptic movements. Interestingly, the upper leadership is from the ruling class, while the followers are usually poor. The phenomenon of our President's embrace of the apocalyptic is very typical, and also a sad statement about human nature.
Apocalyptic belief arises when only catastrophic change can solve the problems being faced. It employs the spiritual language of images, which is often graphic and violent. In truth, the spiritual life is quite violent, but only in terms of resolving one's inner contradictions, so that truth and grace are freely lived. Also, there is often confusion in dealing with that imagery, so that images which should be understood internally are interpreted exoterically, producing the "Dand D" scenario you described. Joachim De Fiore preached that the world his fellow Florentines lived in would end. He was burned at the cross for his pains, but Florence went through catastrophic changes in the next century. He was right, but in the wrong way.
My hope for the church and for humanity is that we take that twofold understanding, that Christ showed that God holds nothing against humanity, and also that judgement is for growth and healing, and act on it, instead of hiding in a foxhole, singing about "some glad morning, when this life is over, I'll fly away".
As an image of hope I prefer the passage in Micah four. Let me quote:
"But it has come to pass, in the latter days, the mount of the house of G*d is established above the mounts, and above the hills, and peoples have flowed to it. 2 And many nations have said, Come, we go up to the mount of G*d,... and He teaches us His ways, and we walk in His paths, for from Zion goes forth a law, and a word of G*d from Jerusalem. 3 And He has judged between peoples, and given a decision to nations far off. They have beaten their swords to plowshares and their spears to pruning hooks,
Nation lifts not up sword to nation, nor do they learn war any more. 4 And they have each sat under his vine, and under his fig tree, and no one troubles, for G*d has spoken it. 5 For all the peoples walk, each in the name of it's G*d, and we walk in the name of G*d, our Mighty One, age upon age.
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Posted by: todah on Apr 18, 2005 7:14 AM
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Posted by: todah on Apr 18, 2005 7:15 AM
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Posted by: todah on Apr 18, 2005 7:18 AM
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Posted by: GWisaCrackHead on Apr 18, 2005 9:03 AM
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For example, county, city. and/or metro real estate records would yield a lot of insight to how much taxable real estate is held privately by Smith and/or Calvary Chapel. Other similar public records. such as building permits, court indexes and the yield could background information as official records for public inspection that can published without constituting an invasion of privacy according to a 1967 U.S. Supreme Court decision (Cox Broadcasing v. Cohn, 420 U.S. 469,1975.)
If Pastor Smith of his Calvary Chapel operations own any broadcasting stations, then the Federal Communications Commission will have beau coup public files available for inspection. In addition to viewing such materials as FCC license applications, you can also visit the office of any broadcasting station (yes, including Christian and rightwing neocon prattle radio stations) and inspect their FCC public files.
While you are in the inspection mode, go by the local voter registeration office and ask to see all public records pertaining to your favorite neocon broadcastor, including an application for voter registration, voter roll card, voter history sheet, walk list for the residential street address, etc.
If these radio stations are organized as 501(c)(3) tax exempt organizations, you may hae hit the mother lode of public records. Generally speaking. 501(c)(3) exempt organizatios are generally required to file informational reports with the IRS and you can inspect and photocopy the great majority of these records (see IRS bullentin TD 8188 for complete details).
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Posted by: papergirl on Apr 18, 2005 9:56 AM
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I am a Democrat and a Christian. I have strong moral values. Imagine that?!!! How can it be? I cannot believe that my husband and I are the only ones. I know there was a silent minority in the churches. We have to find them, speak to them, embrace them, tell them they belong here. Our party is one of democracy and civil rights. It is what our country was founded on. We can understand Christians and we can embrace them. They do have as many rights to worship and believe what they/we want just like any other group. And we have to stand for them. Stop with the bias that is the fuel for articles like this and keep an open mind like you would about any other group. There is room for everyone in our party.
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» RE: This is exactly why we lost the election last time...cont.
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» RE: This is exactly why we lost the election last time...
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» RE:Hostile?...
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» RE: Hostile?...
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» RE: Hostile?...
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» RE: Hostile?...
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» RE: Hostile?...
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» RE: This is exactly why we lost the election last time...
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» We are not Idiots...
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» RE: This is exactly why we lost the election last time...
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Posted by: Jim on Apr 18, 2005 10:18 AM
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Revelation, or the Apocalypse of John, presents itself as a series of visions that John had. If these are visions, they are speaking in the language of dreams. To take Revelation literally means that we do not take the images given literally but to treat them as symbolic dreams.
What the visions communicate is the victory of the people of God over oppression. Oppression is represented by “the beast” which is a power that combines political, religious, military, and economic powers. The “Left Behind” books do get this part right, but hypothesize a future power that grows out of the United Nations.
The original readers rightly interpreted the beast as being the Roman Empire. The book is to strengthen their resistance to submission to that beast. I suggest resistance to the current empire or superpower would be today’s application. When political, religious, military, and economic forces are all working together, the world is in great danger. Revelation calls for the faithful to resist.
But how to resist? Not by deceit, lying, and killing as in the Left Behind books. “They have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they did not cling to life even in the face of death.” [Revelation 12.11] Resist by suffering, non-violent love and telling the truth boldly.
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» RE: a partial defense of "Left Behind" theology
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Posted by: RoguebotV on Apr 18, 2005 10:54 AM
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This should be of special interest as the trend can be identified over tens of years.
The idea that a supernatural being is at the center of human experiance is easier to swallow if you do not have a basic grasp of our reality and why it works.(This is why WE do not subscribe to the more violent/exclusive, beliefs) we know better.
The same is true for muslims, once they held a position at the pinnacle of human enlightenment and their religion reflected that fact by showing the gentle truths of the koran.
This same group has over time degenerated into what it is today.
THE SAME WILL HAPPEN HERE!!!!!!!!!!!.
Make smarter people and this problem WILL fade.
Thanks for the story and the chance to respond ;>
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» RE: Lack of education fuels current religous problem
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Posted by: Trixed on Apr 18, 2005 10:58 AM
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» RE: e: God Assault - Be wary
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Posted by: jeanmarie on Apr 18, 2005 1:03 PM
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do us in.And it may be soon...polar ice caps melting,oceans dying,summer during winter,I am most concerned with the widespread use of Depleted Uranium ..No one can stop the coporate military complex from using and nuking anyone they want to nuke...Maybe this is more fearsome to these church people than an earthly father who beats them...Jean
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Posted by: elmysterio on Apr 18, 2005 2:23 PM
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Posted by: fdr_vindicated on Apr 18, 2005 6:00 PM
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» RE: Just simply read this book
Posted by: Mar
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Posted by: eileen_flmng on Apr 19, 2005 6:49 AM
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The stern warning John ends his Revelation with is that anyone who adds to his words [will not make a boatload of money!], but that "God will add to him the plagues described" and if anyone deletes anything, "God will take away from him his share in the tree of life."
The doctrine of Fear and misunderstanding of John's dream that is believed by fundamentalists is being confronted by progressive Christian's through books such as "Gods Politics: Why the Right Gets it Wrong and The Left Doesn't Get It"-
www.godspolitics.com
And the currently FREE download of Keep Hope Alive which offers what The DaVinci Code only alluded to, available at
www.olivetreesfoundation.org
ecumei@aol.com
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Posted by: Andie927 on Apr 20, 2005 10:14 AM
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Most Progressives believe in seperation of church and state, I don't want my church telling me how to vote nor my country telling me which set of church rules I have to live by!
There are plenty of religous web sites out there, go argue or convert each other on those!
If Alternet is now a religous web page, please say so, I'll go else where, but please change your name, to Alter-religion!
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Posted by: Andie927 on Apr 20, 2005 10:25 AM
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The Sojournes are no different then the rest of the Neo-Con Evangelical Right, their just trying to get a foot-hold in so they can convert others out!!!!
Try going to the interfaithalience, site which Bill Moyer belongs to if you want to learn more.
Sojournes are spoilers! Infiltrating to divide us!
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» RE: Tolerence? At Least Listen.
Posted by: joncee
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Posted by: Mar on Apr 24, 2005 1:48 PM
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The British women essentially said things like, "Isn't that interesting?"
The Canadian women said, "That's just terrible."
The American women asked, "How long do we have?"
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Posted by: johndoe63 on May 3, 2005 1:06 AM
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1. If you was born in a different country or area where a different religion is the primary source of faith, would you still be a strong follower of the one you believe in now.
2.Why should we force are believes on one another, or non believes.
3.What makes your relgion more realistic than that last one they all have strange accounts of "supernatural" events happening.
4. Who says the Romans or greeks or one of the ancient religions wasn't the right one.
5. If someone's god is so great then whats the purpose to cause pain and agony to those who follow and almost sacrafic themselfs to their god, when they did nothing but be perfect followers.
6. If someone's god is so good and cares about all mankind, then why would he condem those just because they was born to differerent geografic area's.
I personally say they could all be true or all false or a combination of both. Either way we should put the fingers down and stop threating those who don't believe or those who believe in other believes.
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Posted by: Joseph on May 6, 2005 3:32 PM
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Posted by: jasbinsek on Apr 16, 2005 12:36 AM
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You write only for yourself, or for whatever small clique of friends you belong to that logs on and reads what you write. There was NO CONTENT to the article.
If someone presents themselves as a writer to a serious public forum (as AlterNet would like to claim it is) then I'd say that you should have something to say. Masturbating your so called "ideas" into a mirror is not writing, is not commentary, and is not especially useful.
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» RE: My, aren't we precious!
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» RE: My, aren't we precious!
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» RE: My, aren't we precious!
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Posted by: sam on Apr 16, 2005 3:38 AM
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As a former fan of Christian radio, I think you articulated /validated some of my mixed feelings toward this medium of connecting isolated listeners to a daily church.
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Posted by: WONDERWALEYE on Apr 16, 2005 6:38 AM
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If you combine that with recieveing the HOLY SPIRIT [in other words you must be born again] you then can't be mislead!!! You will be able to discern false teachings from GODS TEACHINGS. In the mean time the church teachings shall at least alert you to the fact that there is more to this life then what you can see and there is a reason for living. Then it is up to you to make the decision of whether to take out the road map to GOD'S KINGDOM [the BIBLE] or just listen to man. [man will fail you everytime] One GREAT thing about the CHRISTIAN CHURCHES is that no matter what they preach, they don't change the BIBLE. So the decision is up to you!!! Start with the NEW TESTIMENT and then make your decision as to the TRUTH and then make your decision whether your going to give your whole strength, heart, mind, and soul to GOD. When GOD sees your heart[truth] and finds that you have given yourself to HIM wholey and fully, it will be then that you shall recieve the HOLY SPIRT. It is then that you become free of man and are lead by GOD. This is not understood by unbelievers. You can't stand on the outside and look in and understand what it's all about!!!! I hope this helps when you start talking about a churches stand. Remember that it's just a man standing on the pulpit!!! MAY THE LOVE OF JESUS BE WITH YOU!!! [this has two meanings]
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» RE: THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE!!!!!!
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» RE: THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE!!!!!!
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» RE: THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE!!!!!!
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» Troll under the bridge alert. . .
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» RE: Troll under the bridge alert. . .
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» RE: THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE!!!!!!
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» Too Many !!!!
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» RE: THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE!!!!!!
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» RE: THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE!!!!!!
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» RE: THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE!!!!!!
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Posted by: thegreenknight on Apr 16, 2005 7:59 AM
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Posted by: Ogsball on Apr 16, 2005 8:19 AM
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I saw Neil Simon's _God's Favorites_ (contemporary rendition of Job) this weekend and it reminded me that the entire "Rapture" theology is about as Anti-Christ as any that's come down the pike. When I announced this at church you would have thought I violated all Ten Commandments and rejected the Apostle's Creed. I wish the rapture would happen and take all these annoying people away--it would be a 1000 years of peace.
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» RE: I absolutely loved your article!
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Posted by: jusfishn on Apr 16, 2005 9:19 AM
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There is no chapter or verse written by GOD. Everything is written by others, who may have had something to gain by writing the words as they did. Their intent may have been as simple as obtaining a larger following to their preaching, or it could have been a desire to subjegate their existing followers with fear mongering.
Whatever the reason for the writing, the bible is still just a history book. God wrote nothing. No he did not write the "Ten Commandments", Moses said god gave them to him. Truth be known Moses probably wrote them.
Religion as practiced today by all preachers/priests is a demonstration in "how to subijate the masses".
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» RE: A very good post, thanks
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Posted by: Mar on Apr 16, 2005 10:10 AM
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» RE: Heal Thyself Bible Babblers
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Posted by: WONDERWALEYE on Apr 16, 2005 10:26 AM
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CHURCH CAN BE A WONDERFUL NEST
But unless you venture out of your nest and use your BIBLE for wings, you will never soar, with distruction most probable.
THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND
The temple of GOD is not in your church, but in your HEART, MIND, AND SOUL. Don't balme your church if you are lukewarm, sinful and weak. Give your all to GOD and ask that you become new and the old shall pass away.
ALL OF THE PROBLEMS WE FACE ARE TRULY BASED ON VANITY, BUT THE INTENT OF OUR HEART IS ETERNAL.
SIN IS LIKE THE SEA AGAINST THE LAND. IN TIMES OF TURMOIL THE WAVES TRY TO OVERTAKE AND WASH IT AWAY. BUT THE ROCK OF GOD DOESN'T MOVE.
FAITH
FAITH without works is likened to potential without making any effort, JUST A WASTE!!
THE BIBLE
Man's tool to tap MIRACLES.
LIFE
Life not understood is full of anxiety, brings trial of every kind, offers little peace and usually ends in disaster. Life understood brings fear of GOD, which brings wisdom, which brings understanding, which brings peace and ends in eternal life.
CHRISTIANS THAT REMAIN COLD OR LUKEWARM WILL SPEND ETERNITY, HOT AS HELL.
THERE ARE ONLY TWO TYPES OF HUMAN LIFE
One type follows the LORD and has an inner peace and happiness. The other follows many things and the decay thereof makes them miserable.
WHAT IS HUMAN LIFE?
Life is a period of time given to humamity to go through the changes and be sifted out into the proper catagory for the here-after.
AMEN!!!!!!
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» RE: IN THE EARLY MORNING HOURS!!!!
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» RE: IN THE EARLY MORNING HOURS!!!!
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» RE: IN THE EARLY MORNING HOURS!!!!
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Posted by: orion113 on Apr 16, 2005 11:00 AM
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Genuine faith, faith that works, is not motivated by fear, but by love.
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Posted by: freebright on Apr 16, 2005 1:23 PM
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Posted by: Tankerdeath on Apr 16, 2005 2:01 PM
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Posted by: jhkrantz on Apr 16, 2005 7:08 PM
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The Rapture is a thoroughly non-biblical theory (I've tried to provide a succinct rebuttal of the idea here No Such Thing as the Rapture but the notion of the Rapture isn't the problem. The Rapture is just another symptom of a larger problem centered in an image of God that would have been unrecognizable to Jesus.
"New Agey" protestantism like that experienced by the author in childhood provides no answer to this distortion of Christianity. Neither does agnosticism. The only Christianity that can unseat this violent faith from the hearts of its adherents is one that is grounded in the true Jesus, the one really presented in the Scriptures. Faith in Jesus can be radical, committed, and liberal. (See Jim Wallis' book, "God's Politics - Why the Right Gets It Wrong and the Left Doesn't Get It.) But a Christianity that treats the Scriptures with the disdain of the author will never make a dent in the teachings of the Calvary Chapel.
Want to change the course of Christian politics in this country? Get to know the Bible as it REALLY is, not as it's been distorted by the Evangelical Right.
Jeff Krantz
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Posted by: Karieson on Apr 17, 2005 12:33 AM
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» RE: This article makes an important point.
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Posted by: Sandy on Apr 17, 2005 4:45 AM
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I did not like what the school planted in my children's brains. I believe we live in a world of technology not a world where we have to be constantly aware of God's destruction of us all. I raised my kids in Los Angeles on the San Andreas Fault and we learned everything we could on how to survive any disaster that hit us on the average of every 2 years; forest fires, earthquakes, floods etc.
I believe in evolution and the survival of the fittest and it became my aim to train my kids in every possible survival method. This involved keeping their brains functioning at top level. The Bible was traded for Science books including Darwin. I found a great secular college prep school for the last 6 years and my kids were human sponges for knowledge. We dumped the television and all religious crap and we truly became reborn in the world of intelligence.
The bible is a great diverter of brain development and I can say no more about it.
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» RE: Prercious time wasted
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» RE: Precious time wasted
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Posted by: danopacki on Apr 17, 2005 5:47 AM
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» RE: Call them the Konservative Khristian Kult
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» Your time will come
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Posted by: lamar on Apr 17, 2005 7:03 AM
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Ride in the cavalry
Shoot the artillery
I may never fly over the enemy
But I'm in the Lord's army!
And what a terrible, overzealous, abusive, hypocritical army it is......
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Posted by: powellm on Apr 17, 2005 9:03 AM
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Fundamentalism cultivates fear, hatred, aggression, war, and supports the power structures of racism, sexism, and intolerance. It imposes a narrow worldview that is anti-science and repressive of intellectual curiosity. It allows over-fed, under-educated, mass-consumers to avoid personal responsibility for the state of the world through belief in "faith-based" ideologies that place "All things in Gods hands". Worst of all, fundamentalists see all issues in simplistic, black-or-white, "you are either one of us or an enemy" terms.
It is a basic matter of "Faith" that all things, ALL THINGS, are either "of God", or "of Satan". This worldview allows no intellectual middleground. None. This is a basic tenet. All matters, all persons, all events, are either "of God", or "of Satan".
This is a dangerous philosophy in a complex world of diverse cultures, religions, belief systems and nuclear weapons. The real world is a place of complexity, subtlety, variety, multiplicity, nuance and difference. The fundamentalist is uniquely ill-equipped to embrace the "real" world on its own terms and as a result fears it. To address this basic fear fundamentalism resorts to simplistic, ideological rationalizations in much the same way primitive man has always invented myths and legend to explain the natural world.
I was raised in a Christian fundamentalist environment. The 2004 US presidential election has made me realize that many people do not realize the power and influence of Christian fundamentalism in US culture and politics.
Sam Harris has written a very important book "The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason ". This is a terriffic book for anyone willing think objectively about the notion of "Faith".
I also recommend "The Clash of Fundmentalisms" by Tariq Ali .
Religiosity in Government is a recipe for disaster. As mankind has moved beyond the flat-world theory, alchemy, and the serious use of astrology as a means to make decisions, so too must we abandon the irrationality of religion as a component of public policy.
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» Fundamentalism = Doctinal distortion
Posted by: Wells
» RE: Fundamentalism = Disaster
Posted by: paschn@comcast.net
» RE: Fundamentalism = Disaster
Posted by: danopacki
» RE: Fundamentalism = Disaster
Posted by: opit
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Posted by: stevefoagardner on Apr 17, 2005 9:20 AM
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It would be wise for those who consider themselves Christians to realize that temporal power has never been good for the church. It always breeds corruption and leads to persecution of some Christians by other (politically well-connected) Christians in the name of the "true" Christianity. What is "true Christianity"? Whatever the politically connected Christians say it is. That's what. Better hope it isn't too different from your own views. ;-) As a non-believer I take comfort in the fact that Christians always reserve their worst punishments for those who believe almost the way they do. ;-)
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» RE: These movements come and go in America
Posted by: powellm
» RE: These movements come and go in America
Posted by: stevefoagardner
» RE: These movements come and go in America
Posted by: opit
» RE: These movements come and go in America
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Posted by: Moonbat on Apr 17, 2005 10:50 AM
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Although I agree with the thought above, I can't help but think that we MUST reach out to these disinfranchised wretches.
Fundamentalism is idolatry of the worst sort.
Thanks for listening.
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» RE: Moonbat
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Posted by: joncee on Apr 17, 2005 3:23 PM
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The difference is, that faith is something you believe without substantiation by means of reason, logic, or scholarship. Superstition is something someone else believes without substantiation by means of reason, logic, or scholarship.
Sheesh!
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» RE: Faith/Superstition ?
Posted by: powellm
» IS THAT WHEN STEVIE WONDER WAS TAKING HEROIN??????
Posted by: WONDERWALEYE
» Or why Jimmy Swagart is Boinking HOs??????
Posted by: joncee
» RE: IS THAT WHEN STEVIE WONDER WAS TAKING HEROIN??????
Posted by: pcushnie
» Can WONDERWALEYE find "GOD" in Constitution? Nada...
Posted by: GWisaCrackHead
» DON'T WE WISH IN THE YEAR OF OUR LORD WAS STILL COMMON USAGE???
Posted by: WONDERWALEYE
» RE: IS THAT WHEN STEVIE WONDER WAS TAKING HEROIN??????
Posted by: skyryder37
» RE: Faith/Superstition ?
Posted by: tinto
» T-E-N-E-T
Posted by: joncee
» RE: Faith/Superstition ?
Posted by: opit
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Posted by: dedwardloftin on Apr 17, 2005 10:47 PM
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I found your article interesting. I've spent many years in and around this religious "community", and have watched the apocalyptic mindset overwhelm the Evangelical church.
There have been many studies done on the history and sociology of apocalyptic movements. Interestingly, the upper leadership is from the ruling class, while the followers are usually poor. The phenomenon of our President's embrace of the apocalyptic is very typical, and also a sad statement about human nature.
Apocalyptic belief arises when only catastrophic change can solve the problems being faced. It employs the spiritual language of images, which is often graphic and violent. In truth, the spiritual life is quite violent, but only in terms of resolving one's inner contradictions, so that truth and grace are freely lived. Also, there is often confusion in dealing with that imagery, so that images which should be understood internally are interpreted exoterically, producing the "Dand D" scenario you described. Joachim De Fiore preached that the world his fellow Florentines lived in would end. He was burned at the cross for his pains, but Florence went through catastrophic changes in the next century. He was right, but in the wrong way.
My hope for the church and for humanity is that we take that twofold understanding, that Christ showed that God holds nothing against humanity, and also that judgement is for growth and healing, and act on it, instead of hiding in a foxhole, singing about "some glad morning, when this life is over, I'll fly away".
As an image of hope I prefer the passage in Micah four. Let me quote:
"But it has come to pass, in the latter days, the mount of the house of G*d is established above the mounts, and above the hills, and peoples have flowed to it. 2 And many nations have said, Come, we go up to the mount of G*d,... and He teaches us His ways, and we walk in His paths, for from Zion goes forth a law, and a word of G*d from Jerusalem. 3 And He has judged between peoples, and given a decision to nations far off. They have beaten their swords to plowshares and their spears to pruning hooks,
Nation lifts not up sword to nation, nor do they learn war any more. 4 And they have each sat under his vine, and under his fig tree, and no one troubles, for G*d has spoken it. 5 For all the peoples walk, each in the name of it's G*d, and we walk in the name of G*d, our Mighty One, age upon age.
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» RE: dedwardloftin
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» RE: dedwardloftin
Posted by: dedwardloftin
» RE: dedwardloftin
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Posted by: todah on Apr 18, 2005 7:14 AM
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Posted by: todah on Apr 18, 2005 7:15 AM
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Posted by: todah on Apr 18, 2005 7:18 AM
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Posted by: GWisaCrackHead on Apr 18, 2005 9:03 AM
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For example, county, city. and/or metro real estate records would yield a lot of insight to how much taxable real estate is held privately by Smith and/or Calvary Chapel. Other similar public records. such as building permits, court indexes and the yield could background information as official records for public inspection that can published without constituting an invasion of privacy according to a 1967 U.S. Supreme Court decision (Cox Broadcasing v. Cohn, 420 U.S. 469,1975.)
If Pastor Smith of his Calvary Chapel operations own any broadcasting stations, then the Federal Communications Commission will have beau coup public files available for inspection. In addition to viewing such materials as FCC license applications, you can also visit the office of any broadcasting station (yes, including Christian and rightwing neocon prattle radio stations) and inspect their FCC public files.
While you are in the inspection mode, go by the local voter registeration office and ask to see all public records pertaining to your favorite neocon broadcastor, including an application for voter registration, voter roll card, voter history sheet, walk list for the residential street address, etc.
If these radio stations are organized as 501(c)(3) tax exempt organizations, you may hae hit the mother lode of public records. Generally speaking. 501(c)(3) exempt organizatios are generally required to file informational reports with the IRS and you can inspect and photocopy the great majority of these records (see IRS bullentin TD 8188 for complete details).
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Posted by: papergirl on Apr 18, 2005 9:56 AM
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I am a Democrat and a Christian. I have strong moral values. Imagine that?!!! How can it be? I cannot believe that my husband and I are the only ones. I know there was a silent minority in the churches. We have to find them, speak to them, embrace them, tell them they belong here. Our party is one of democracy and civil rights. It is what our country was founded on. We can understand Christians and we can embrace them. They do have as many rights to worship and believe what they/we want just like any other group. And we have to stand for them. Stop with the bias that is the fuel for articles like this and keep an open mind like you would about any other group. There is room for everyone in our party.
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» RE: This is exactly why we lost the election last time...cont.
Posted by: papergirl
» RE: This is exactly why we lost the election last time...
Posted by: Campesino
» RE:Hostile?...
Posted by: joncee
» RE: Hostile?...
Posted by: Campesino
» RE: Hostile?...
Posted by: stevefoagardner
» RE: Hostile?...
Posted by: papergirl
» RE: Hostile?...
Posted by: joncee
» RE: Hostile?...
Posted by: papergirl
» RE: Hostile?...
Posted by: joncee
» RE: Hostile?...
Posted by: papergirl
» RE: Hostile?...
Posted by: opit
» RE: This is exactly why we lost the election last time...
Posted by: lainie
» We are not Idiots...
Posted by: joncee
» RE: This is exactly why we lost the election last time...
Posted by: stonemason
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Posted by: Jim on Apr 18, 2005 10:18 AM
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Revelation, or the Apocalypse of John, presents itself as a series of visions that John had. If these are visions, they are speaking in the language of dreams. To take Revelation literally means that we do not take the images given literally but to treat them as symbolic dreams.
What the visions communicate is the victory of the people of God over oppression. Oppression is represented by “the beast” which is a power that combines political, religious, military, and economic powers. The “Left Behind” books do get this part right, but hypothesize a future power that grows out of the United Nations.
The original readers rightly interpreted the beast as being the Roman Empire. The book is to strengthen their resistance to submission to that beast. I suggest resistance to the current empire or superpower would be today’s application. When political, religious, military, and economic forces are all working together, the world is in great danger. Revelation calls for the faithful to resist.
But how to resist? Not by deceit, lying, and killing as in the Left Behind books. “They have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they did not cling to life even in the face of death.” [Revelation 12.11] Resist by suffering, non-violent love and telling the truth boldly.
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» RE: a partial defense of "Left Behind" theology
Posted by: opit
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Posted by: RoguebotV on Apr 18, 2005 10:54 AM
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This should be of special interest as the trend can be identified over tens of years.
The idea that a supernatural being is at the center of human experiance is easier to swallow if you do not have a basic grasp of our reality and why it works.(This is why WE do not subscribe to the more violent/exclusive, beliefs) we know better.
The same is true for muslims, once they held a position at the pinnacle of human enlightenment and their religion reflected that fact by showing the gentle truths of the koran.
This same group has over time degenerated into what it is today.
THE SAME WILL HAPPEN HERE!!!!!!!!!!!.
Make smarter people and this problem WILL fade.
Thanks for the story and the chance to respond ;>
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» RE: Lack of education fuels current religous problem
Posted by: opit
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Posted by: Trixed on Apr 18, 2005 10:58 AM
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» RE: e: God Assault - Be wary
Posted by: danopacki
» RE: e: God Assault - Be wary
Posted by: opit
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Posted by: jeanmarie on Apr 18, 2005 1:03 PM
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do us in.And it may be soon...polar ice caps melting,oceans dying,summer during winter,I am most concerned with the widespread use of Depleted Uranium ..No one can stop the coporate military complex from using and nuking anyone they want to nuke...Maybe this is more fearsome to these church people than an earthly father who beats them...Jean
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Posted by: elmysterio on Apr 18, 2005 2:23 PM
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Posted by: fdr_vindicated on Apr 18, 2005 6:00 PM
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» RE: Just simply read this book
Posted by: Mar
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Posted by: eileen_flmng on Apr 19, 2005 6:49 AM
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The stern warning John ends his Revelation with is that anyone who adds to his words [will not make a boatload of money!], but that "God will add to him the plagues described" and if anyone deletes anything, "God will take away from him his share in the tree of life."
The doctrine of Fear and misunderstanding of John's dream that is believed by fundamentalists is being confronted by progressive Christian's through books such as "Gods Politics: Why the Right Gets it Wrong and The Left Doesn't Get It"-
www.godspolitics.com
And the currently FREE download of Keep Hope Alive which offers what The DaVinci Code only alluded to, available at
www.olivetreesfoundation.org
ecumei@aol.com
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Posted by: Andie927 on Apr 20, 2005 10:14 AM
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Most Progressives believe in seperation of church and state, I don't want my church telling me how to vote nor my country telling me which set of church rules I have to live by!
There are plenty of religous web sites out there, go argue or convert each other on those!
If Alternet is now a religous web page, please say so, I'll go else where, but please change your name, to Alter-religion!
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Posted by: Andie927 on Apr 20, 2005 10:25 AM
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The Sojournes are no different then the rest of the Neo-Con Evangelical Right, their just trying to get a foot-hold in so they can convert others out!!!!
Try going to the interfaithalience, site which Bill Moyer belongs to if you want to learn more.
Sojournes are spoilers! Infiltrating to divide us!
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» RE: Tolerence? At Least Listen.
Posted by: joncee
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Posted by: Mar on Apr 24, 2005 1:48 PM
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The British women essentially said things like, "Isn't that interesting?"
The Canadian women said, "That's just terrible."
The American women asked, "How long do we have?"
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Posted by: johndoe63 on May 3, 2005 1:06 AM
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1. If you was born in a different country or area where a different religion is the primary source of faith, would you still be a strong follower of the one you believe in now.
2.Why should we force are believes on one another, or non believes.
3.What makes your relgion more realistic than that last one they all have strange accounts of "supernatural" events happening.
4. Who says the Romans or greeks or one of the ancient religions wasn't the right one.
5. If someone's god is so great then whats the purpose to cause pain and agony to those who follow and almost sacrafic themselfs to their god, when they did nothing but be perfect followers.
6. If someone's god is so good and cares about all mankind, then why would he condem those just because they was born to differerent geografic area's.
I personally say they could all be true or all false or a combination of both. Either way we should put the fingers down and stop threating those who don't believe or those who believe in other believes.
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Posted by: Joseph on May 6, 2005 3:32 PM
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