America According to Hertsgaard

Mark Hertsgaard is the author of the highly acclaimed study of the media during the Reagan years, "On Bended Knee" and "Earth Odyssey; Around the World in Search of Our Environmental Future." On Sept. 11, 2001, Hertsgaard was traveling around the world asking people questions about America. Interviewer Terrence McNally recently spoke with him about his new book, "The Eagle's Shadow: Why America Fascinates and Infuriates the World."

Terrence McNally: Mark, how did this new book happen?

Mark Hertsgaard: I was in Cuba right right after the 2000 election, and one morning a young Cuban asked if it was true that Gore had won more of the votes, but Bush might actually be named President. While I was thinking to myself how to explain the Electoral College, he had the last laugh, saying, "Looks like you guys are having troubles. Maybe Cuba should send some election observers up there next time."

Two days later I knew I would write this book. In it, I use outsiders' perceptions of us as a launchpad to write an essay with storytelling that attempts to explain why America is the way it is.

I think it's important that this began before September 11, because the biggest inequality that distorts our relationship with the rest of the world is the fact that the rest of the world has no choice but to pay attention to us. And if we're honest we'll admit that before September 11 we never paid attention to the rest of the world. I think on September 11 we learned the hard way that what outsiders think does matter.

What changed about what were you hearing from people before September 11 and after?

The only striking difference after September 11 was how much more overt the sense of solidarity and sympathy with Americans was. People did not forget their complaints about America, but what came to the fore were their deeper feelings. And the deeper feelings, for the most part, are positive ones, affectionate ones.

I interviewed an intellectual by the name of Anna in Barcelona about three weeks after September 11. Bush had gone to the UN and made his famous statement, telling other countries, "You're either with us or you're with the terrorists." And she said, "How dare he say that!" But she also said "It's not true that America is hated. We don't hate you. We all have American friends. We like you. Your culture is our culture. I grew up with the music of Motown. I love Hollywood movies. But we do wish that you Americans would think a little more about your government, because we have to live with your government. And that is not easy, especially at times like this when war is in the air."

The distinction, between America and Americans is a crucial one. It lies at the heart of foreigners' ambivalence about the United States.

I think Americans, in general, don't make that distinction. You can see that in the way we reacted to September 11, and in particular to the Bush Administration's crackdown on civil liberties. Nobody wanted to criticize Mr. Bush, including the press or anyone in Washington. It was thought of as "unpatriotic" to criticize. Well, it is a basic point that the country is not the same as the government. You can love your country and oppose your government. If there is a more fundamentally American idea than that I don't know what it is. And yet so many of us forgot that.

The book came out in Europe on September 11. What was the response like over there?

It was like being a rock star... I flew overnight over the Pole, got to London at 3:30 in the afternoon and the biggest national evening TV news show was there within the hour to interview me. Then called back an hour later and said, "No, we want you to come now live and be on the air," and they closed the broadcast with a seven minute interview; a long time for TV. And it kind of went on from there.