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3 Silly Religious Beliefs Held By Non-Silly People

Many of the beliefs held by religious moderates -- smart people who respect science and the separation of church and state -- are as untenable as the dogma of fundamentalists.
October 30, 2009  |  
 
 
 
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"You can't disprove religion."

I'm seeing this trope a lot these days. "You can't disprove religion. At least -- not my religion."

"Well, of course," the trope continues, "many outdated religious beliefs -- young-earth creationism, the universe revolving around the earth, the sun being drawn across the sky by Apollo's chariot -- have been shown by science to be mistaken. But modern progressive and moderate beliefs -- these, you can't disprove with science. These are simply matters of faith: things people reasonably choose to believe, based on their personal life experience."

Then there's the corollary to this trope: "Therefore, atheism is just as much a matter of faith as religion. And atheists who think atheism is better supported by evidence are just as dogmatic and close-minded as religious believers."

The usual atheist reply to this is to cry, "That's the God of the Gaps! Whatever phenomenon isn't currently explained by science, that's where you stick your God! What kind of sense does that make? Why should any given unexplained phenomenon be best explained by religion? Has there ever been a gap in our knowledge that's eventually been shown to be filled by God?"

Which is a pretty good reply, and one I make a lot myself. But today, I want to say something else.

Today, I want to point out that this is simply not the case.

The fact is that many modern progressive and moderate religions do make claims about the observable world. And many of those claims are unsupported by science... and, in fact, are in direct contradiction of it.

I want to talk today about three specific religious beliefs. Not obscure cults or rigid fundamentalist dogmas; not young-earth creationism, or the doctrine that communion wafers literally and physically transform into the human flesh of Christ somewhere in the digestive tract, or the belief that the human mind has been taken over by space aliens. I want to talk about three widely held beliefs of modern progressive and moderate believers: beliefs held by intelligent and educated believers who respect science and don't think religion should contradict it.

And I want to point out that even these beliefs are in direct contradiction of the vast preponderance of available evidence -- almost as much as the obscure cults and the rigid fundamentalist dogma.

So let's go! Today's beliefs on the chopping block are:

1: Evolution guided by God.

Also known as "theistic evolution." Among progressive and moderate believers, this is an extremely common position on evolution. They readily (and rightly) dismiss the claims of young-earth creationists that humanity and all the universe were created in one swell foop 6,000 years ago. They dismiss these claims as utterly contradicted by the evidence. Instead, they say that evolution proceeds exactly as the biologists say it does, but this process is guided by God, to bring humanity and the vast variety of life into being.

A belief that is almost as thoroughly contradicted by the evidence as young-earth creationism is.

Nowhere in anatomy, nowhere in genetics, nowhere in the fossil record or the geological record or any of the physical records of evolution, is there even the slightest piece of evidence for divine intervention.

Quite the contrary. If there had been a divine hand tinkering with the process, we would expect evolution to have proceeded radically differently than it has. We would expect to see, among the changes in anatomy from generation to generation, at least an occasional instance of the structure being tweaked in non-gradual ways. We would expect to see -- oh, say, just for a random example -- human knees and backs better designed for bipedal animals than quadrupeds. (She said bitterly, putting an ice pack on her bad knee.) We would expect to see the blind spot in the human eye done away with, perhaps replaced with the octopus design that doesn't have a blind spot. We would expect to see the vagus nerve re-routed so it doesn't wander all over hell and gone before getting where it's going. We would expect to see a major shift in the risk-benefit analysis that's wired into our brains, one that better suits a 70-year life expectancy than a 35-year one. We would expect to see... I could go on, and on, and on.

And it's not just humans. We'd expect to see whales with gills, pandas with real thumbs, ostriches without those stupid useless wings.

We don't see any of this.

What we see instead is exactly what we would expect to see if evolution proceeded entirely as a natural, physical process. We see "designs" of living things that are flawed and inefficient and just plain goofy: "designs" that exist for no earthly reason except the slow incrementalism that's an inherent part of the physical process of evolution. We see anatomical adaptations severely constrained by the fact that each generation can only be a slight modification on the previous generation, with no sudden jumps to a different basic version. We see anatomical adaptations severely constrained by the fact that each new version has to be an improvement on the previous version (or at least, not a deterioration from it). We see a vast preponderance of evidence showing that evolution proceeds very slowly, very gradually, with the anatomy of each generation being only slightly altered (if at all) from that of the previous generation.

And that isn't how things designed by a conscious designer, or even things tinkered with by a conscious designer, work.

Even when a designer is stuck with the outlines of a previous design, they can still make significant, non-incremental changes. They can tear out the cabinets and replace them with windows, and move the stove to the other side of the room where the fridge is now. They're not stuck with moving the stove one inch at a time, once every week or year or twenty years. And they're not stuck with a system in which every inch that the stove moves has to be an improvement on the previous inch. They're not stuck with a system where, if the stove has been moving across the floor in a series of incremental improvements, it's going to have to stop if it starts blocking the door... because blocking the door is a serious disadvantage.

And if a designer is omnipotent, they're not even stuck with the outlines of a previous design. They're not stuck with anything at all. Why on earth would an all-powerful and benevolent god, a god who's capable of magically altering DNA, bring life into being by the slow, cruel, violent, inefficient, tacked- together- with- duct- tape process of evolution in the first place?

Now, it's true that we do see some evidence for what are sometimes called "jumps" in the fossil record: evidence that evolutionary changes sometimes happen very slowly, and sometimes happen more rapidly. (It's a controversial position, but it is one held by some respected evolutionary biologists.) And some believers in theistic evolution leap onto this hypothesis and hang on like it's the last helicopter out of Saigon.

But the "rapid jumps" thing is very misleading. "Rapid," in evolutionary terms, means "taking place over a few hundred years instead of a few thousand" (or "a few thousand years instead of a few hundred thousand.") And as recent research has repeatedly shown, evolution can take place surprisingly rapidly, in a matter of decades... and still be an entirely natural process of small changes, incremental alterations in each generation from the previous one. Exactly as we would expect if evolution were an entirely natural, physical process of descent with modification. So even if this "rapid jumps" (or "punctuated equilibrium") hypothesis is true, it still doesn't point to theistic evolution. Not even a little bit.

Again: There is not the slightest bit of evidence supporting the idea of evolution guided by God. And there is a significant body of evidence that strongly suggests the contrary.

2: An immaterial soul that animates human consciousness.

I will acknowledge freely: We don't yet understand consciousness very well. The sciences of neurology and neuropsychology are very much in their infancy, and the basic questions of what exactly consciousness is, and where exactly it comes from, and how exactly it works, are, as of yet, largely unanswered.

But research is happening. The foundations for our understanding of consciousness are beginning to be laid. There are a few things that we do know about consciousness.

And among the things we know is that, whatever consciousness is, it seems to be an entirely biological process. A massive body of evidence points to this conclusion.

When we make physical changes to the brain, it changes consciousness. Drugs, injury, surgery, sensory deprivation, electrical current, magnetic fields, medication, illness, exercise -- all these things change our consciousness. Sometimes drastically. Sometimes rendering an entire personality unrecognizable. Even very small changes to the brain can result in massive changes to consciousness... both temporary and permanent.

This works vice versa as well. Magnetic resonance imagery has shown that, when people think different thoughts, different parts of their brains light up with activity. Changes in thought show up as changes in the brain.... just as changes in the brain show up as changes in thought.

And, of course, we have the drastic change in consciousness created by the very drastic change in the physical brain known as "death."

All the available evidence points to the conclusion that, when the brain dies, consciousness disappears. (And by "when the brain dies," I don't mean, "when the brain is temporarily deprived of oxygen for a short time," a.k.a. "near death experiences." I mean when the brain dies, permanently.) The belief that consciousness survives death has probably been researched more than any other supernatural hypothesis -- nobody, not even scientists, wants death to be permanent -- and it has never, ever been substantiated. Reports of it abound. But when carefully examined, using good, rigorous scientific methodology, these reports fall apart like a house of cards.

Everything we understand about consciousness points to it being a physical, biological process. Physical changes cause observable effects. When we see that in any other phenomenon, we assume that what's going on is physical cause and effect. We have no reason to think that anything else is going on with the phenomenon of consciousness.

And there is not a single scrap of good evidence supporting the hypothesis that consciousness is even partly a supernatural phenomenon. There are many gaps in our understanding of consciousness -- that's a massive understatement -- but there is not one piece of solid, rigorously gathered evidence suggesting that any of those gaps can and should be filled with the hypothesis of an immaterial soul. There's not even a good, testable theory explaining how this immaterial soul is supposed to interact with the physical brain. All there is to support this belief is a personal intuitive feeling on the part of believers that the soul has to be non-physical because, well, it just seems like that... plus thousands of years of other believers with a similar intuitive feeling, who have told it to one another, and taught it to their followers, and made up elaborate rationalizations for it, and written it into their holy texts.

Again: There is not the slightest bit of evidence supporting the idea of an immaterial soul that animates human consciousness. And there is a significant body of evidence that strongly suggests the contrary.

3: A sentient universe.

You might ask why I'm including this particular belief in my Big Three Targets. You might wonder why, among all the widely held religious beliefs in the world today, I'm aiming my sights at this New Age/ Neo-Pagan/ Wiccan belief in a World-Soul.

My answer: I live in Northern California. 'Nuff said.

So that's why I want to debunk this belief. And I'm pretty much going to repeat what I said in #2 above:

We don't yet understand what consciousness is. But we do know that, whatever it is, it seems to be a biological product of the brain.

And the universe does not have a brain.

The universe does not have a physical structure capable of supporting consciousness. The universe does not have neurons, dendrites, ganglia. The universe has stars, and planets, and other astronomical bodies, separated by unimaginably vast regions of empty space.

And stars and planets and so on do not behave like neurons and dendrites and so on. They behave like stars and planets. They behave like objects that, as nifty as they are, are not alive, by any useful definition of the word "life."

If consciousness is a biological process -- as an overwhelming body of evidence suggests, see #2 above -- then the universe, not being a biological entity, cannot possibly be conscious. To say that it is would mean radically redefining what we mean by "conscious." And we have no reason to do so... other than a wishful desire to think of the universe as sentient.

Consciousness has, for a long time, been a mysterious and utterly ineffable phenomenon. So, before Darwin, was the tremendous variety and mind-boggling complexity of life. And like the variety and complexity of life, consciousness is no longer ineffable. It is being effed. The unexplainable is being explained. And it is being explained as a biological phenomenon -- as physical cause and effect.

Again: There is not the slightest bit of evidence supporting the idea of a sentient universe. And there is a significant body of evidence that strongly suggests the contrary.

***
Now. I can hear the chorus already. "How can you prove that? You don't know that with absolute certainty! God could be intervening in evolution -- just in ways that are indistinguishable from natural selection! There could be some sort of immaterial soul interacting with the biological process of consciousness, in ways we don't yet perceive! There could be some weird form of consciousness that we don't understand, one that's generated by stars and planets and lifeless astronomical bodies! You can't prove with absolute certainty that there isn't! Your non-belief is just an article of faith!"

My answer:

No. We can't prove that with 100% certainty.

But neither can we prove with 100% certainty that the universe wasn't created 6,000 years ago, by a god who deliberately planted the fossil record and the genetic record and the geological record and the laws of atomic decay, all to test our faith. (Or all of which was planted by Satan, to trick us and tempt us into disbelief.) We can't prove with 100% certainty that communion wafers don't turn into Christ's physical body on contact with the human digestive system. Hell, we can't prove with 100% certainty that the earth goes around the sun, and that all our senses and logical abilities haven't been fooled by some trickster god into thinking that it does.

And it doesn't matter. As I've said many times: 100% unshakeable certainty is not the objective here. Reasonable plausibility, supported by carefully gathered and rigorously tested positive evidence, is the objective. And there is no reason to apply the "Reasonable plausibility supported by evidence" standard to the belief in young-earth creationism... and still apply the "If you can't disprove it with 100% certainty, then it's still reasonable for me to believe it" standard to the beliefs in theistic evolution, and an immaterial soul, and a sentient universe.

If you're going to accept that young-earth creationism has been conclusively disproven by a mountain of scientific evidence, even though we acknowledge a .00001% hypothetical possibility that it might be true... then, if you're going to be consistent, you have to apply that same standard, that same willingness to accept the reasonable conclusions of science about which ideas are and are not plausible, to all religious beliefs.

Including your own.

Especially your own.

Not everything is a matter of opinion or perspective. Not everything can turn into something completely different if you just look at it differently. Some things are either true or not true. It is not true that the universe was created 6,000 years ago. It is not true that the sun goes around the earth. And it is not true that evolution is shaped by the hand of God, or that consciousness is animated by an immaterial soul, or that the universe is sentient.

These things aren't true for exactly the same reason that young-earth creationism isn't true. They aren't true because the evidence simply doesn't support them. They aren't true because the evidence actively contradicts them.

If you're going to be a moderate or progressive religious believer; if you're going to be a religious believer who respects and supports science instead of treating it as the enemy; if you're going to be a religious believer who wants their beliefs to at least not be directly contradictory with the available scientific evidence... then you need to be willing to consider the possibility that your own beliefs are every bit as contradicted by that evidence as the beliefs of the fundamentalist crazies.

And if the answer is "yup, that belief seems to be contradicted by the evidence"... then you need to be willing to let go of that belief.

Read more of Greta Christina at her blog.
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An interesting piece
Posted by: pure_genius on Oct 30, 2009 1:39 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As an unwavering evolutionist and someone who places logical reasoning above all else, I must say you are probably preaching to the choir and the deaf.

Anyone who claims to believe in god and evolution is contradicting themselves. They are trying to reconcile what they were taught to believe with what their five senses tell them. Because it cannot be done the only option is to combine the two.

I was partially raised in the Bible belt and I rejected religion immediately. I challenged my Sunday school teachers to prove their beliefs and it made life very hard. I also never believed in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. It's interesting that most parents tell their kids the truth about those mythical entities. Being treated as delusional by people who are under the greatest mass delusion in history is enough to make you jump of a bridge and I nearly did many times. I learned to stop debating or challenging religion long ago. The only thing that will change is how hoarse my voice becomes.

I am happy to now live in Northern California (specifically the East SF Bay Area) like you do. I can discuss the insanity of modern religion with most of my friends without feeling insensitive.

One thing I must take issue with is your segment about the non-existence of an immaterial soul. I do not know whether humans have souls, but I do believe in ghosts because I have seen and heard them since I was 3 years old. I had no idea what they were at the time and since they were never scary or threatening it never occurred to me to ask. Whether you believe in them or not lets assume they exist. They must come from somewhere and if they are not coming from humans then where?

I hope one day that people accept that reality begins with their own five senses and ends with the five senses of society. I have no illusions that this will happen anytime soon. If we're lucky long after every living person on the planet has died, the world will view our modern religions the way we view Greek mythology and will not have been replaced by another more loonier religion.

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» RE: An interesting piece Posted by: freegoddesss
» RE: An interesting piece Posted by: Old Skeptic
» An odd conflation? Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: An interesting piece Posted by: medusa
» I must register an objection! Posted by: zipper696
» RE: I must register an objection! Posted by: pure_genius
» Hey! Posted by: bornxeyed

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The Whole Argment Is Pointless
Posted by: InsertNameHere on Oct 30, 2009 1:48 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You can argue religion vs. science to the end of time but you can't win. If winning means proving religion wrong and having them change their view accordingly.

Religious dogma is a closed system. It's designed to be self-perpetuating. Scientific inquiry tries to conduct experiments to test hypothesis, review results, reformulate, repeat, etc. Dogma just simply is. There is no argument it can't defeat. The faithful will simply fall back on two things;

I just have faith.

God has a plan.


'If God were omnipotent, why would God create so many evolutionary branches instead of just creating the perfect creature?'

God has a plan.

'How can you believe x in light of all the evidence to the contrary?'

I just have faith.

It's a closed circle of logic. You can't penetrate unreason with reason.

More practical matters like, countering the hatred peddled by extreme groups is a more worthwhile cause here.

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» RE: The Whole Argment Is Pointless Posted by: pelican beak
» RE: The Whole Argment Is Pointless Posted by: pelican beak
» You don't understand faith Posted by: rickiey

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A question well worth sharing and contemplating...
Posted by: amilius on Oct 30, 2009 1:56 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What if Awareness is all there is?
After all, what is information other than Awareness bundled for shared appreciation?
When One has played with that question enough, the next question presents a puzzle well worth appreciating:
How might a Being of Absolute Awareness have designed the Universe so that it has been realized and shared exactly as we have experienced it? A clue for you is to be found in the definition of something we all share: Grace is the awareness that choice might align potential with possibility for purposes of appreciation. This is how a gracious Universe was designed, with grace. When One remembers how it was designed, the who, what, where, when, and why become obvious no matter how cynics and religions attempt to obscure it.
I know this stands it stark contrast to the claims of this article but it points out what is willfully ignored by the author:
Awareness is all there is. All of the rest is elaboration through illusion for purposes of appreciation.
'Smart' people use information to sort out feelings. Wise people use feelings to sort out information. The result is not the same. This was a 'smart' article and nothing more than that.

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AndyGra111
Posted by: AndyGra111 on Oct 30, 2009 2:03 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My "beliefs", also.
After being a professional auto mechanic for 38 years, I always state, "You can't fix a car with faith".
Very few wars have been waged without religion as a crutch. Quickly, name one.
"Preaching to the choir?". Yes, but very well argued.

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» RE: AndyGra111 Posted by: shellius
» RE: AndyGra111 Posted by: aladin
» RE: AndyGra111 Posted by: jaded
» RE: AndyGra111 Posted by: factbased
» The Crusades Posted by: Jethro2112
» That's Not What He Said Posted by: Eric.Arthur.Blair
» OK... War of 1812? Posted by: uphill
» RE: OK... War of 1812? Posted by: mike1997
» RE: OK... War of 1812? Posted by: Rossisaurus
» RE: AndyGra111 Posted by: gilliani
» RE: AndyGra111 Posted by: spiritof1877

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Everyone is God
Posted by: thornwolf on Oct 30, 2009 2:03 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There's Nothing Else to Be.

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» Definitions, please... Posted by: drosera

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Wrong approach
Posted by: shellius on Oct 30, 2009 2:39 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Everything about this article supposes that moderate, rational people want everything explained. The fascination of many things, for many people, is that we don't want to know absolutely everything about them. We want the mystery, the speculation, the deeper potential, the magic. There is nothing wrong with wanting mystical, spiritual magic in your life. It's where many people get their creativity and even their happiness from. Not everyone wants to know how everything works. To assume that is a bad place to start an article about "silly" things people believe. You ignore that people love the unknown. If they didn't, that Paranormal movie in theaters right now wouldn't be making a dollar, much less millions.

Let people have their mystical, imaginative spirituality and leave them be. There is nothing more annoying than an atheist who wants to prove everything.

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» RE: Wrong approach Posted by: mainspark
» RE: Wrong approach Posted by: ACEwing
» RE: Wrong approach Posted by: anotherplayaguy

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Ok Gretchen, you've made your point, feel superior already?
Posted by: chariotdrvr14 on Oct 30, 2009 2:54 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As an earlier commentor noted, "this isn't an argument you're going to win"
And I have to take aims at the claim you've made that "there is not a single scrap of good evidence supporting the hypothesis that consciousness is even partly a supernatural phenomenon".
There are no scientific devices to test these situations. And clearly everything we go by is empirical data.
Yet I find using the word 'supernatural' is a bit misleading because who's to say where the boundaries of the natural world lie?

Will you say that aura's don't exist even though Kirilian photography shows them. Or that telepathy is a trick of our perceptions?
even if some of us have tested it and had positive results (meaning that the data leaned more to the evidentiary side) And all the people who practice healing arts such as Chi Qong, yoga or acupuncture (all based on the idea on the flows of energy) are perpetuating erroneous superstitious beliefs caused by psychosomatic results?
I don't think that it's possible to prove or disprove the metaphysical nature of our existence. It's all personally interpreted anyway.
I don't believe that it matters that we all have to be on the same page when it comes to these beliefs. What does it serve you to try to shatter them? If they extend a person's life by a decade or so by creating a positive emotional state, then where's the harm in that?
I could point out the inherent arrogance displayed in framing your argument this way but that isn't really fundamental point.

The fundamental point is that our individual journeys through life and approach to death are a personal ones... and no one has any right to try tell us how to perceive it. You cannot die in my place so you cannot tell me how I'm supposed to face my eventual mortality.

This is my beef with religion and why I strongly support the separation of church and state. Especially when their demands to discriminate against sizeable portions of our society are based on the moral codes of nomadic desert societies from more than 2 or 3 thousand years ago; -that have no recognition of modern culture or civil rights.
So of course I want religionists to keep their dogma on a leash.
But if that means also being at odds with atheists who also insist that I accept their beliefs in the finality and finiteness of existence then they're very much mistaken.
I support their right to believe as they do and have their beliefs respected as such.
And I tend to side with them quite often.
But I do expect in return that they respect my right to maintain my 'silly' supernatural beliefs. I don't believe for one second that I be required to eschew my own sense of spiritual existence just to be considered a rational or logical person. Of course I believe in evolution and science. And I also believe in medical science... but that doesn't mean that I haven't seen the limitations of both.
Quantum physics is very often overlapping with some silly metaphysical theories of parallel universes (discovered through scientific inquiry) Medical science is often times shown up by ancient medical practices..;for which it's taken the AMA decades to finally admit the benefits of.
These ideas exist side by side and one shouldn't preclude the other.
So I do hope you take that on board when deriding the notions of those that you ostenibly hold political allegiances with.

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» Whether GOD exists or not ... Posted by: bornxeyed
» Kirllian photography? Auras? Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Kirllian photography? Auras? Posted by: chariotdrvr14
» RE: Kirllian photography? Auras? Posted by: chariotdrvr14
» It's Already Been Explained Posted by: Eric.Arthur.Blair
» Explain this then! Posted by: Sekhmetnakt
» Okay Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: xplain this then! Posted by: Eric.Arthur.Blair

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A "Hicksonian" cosmos with lyrics by Idle
Posted by: Dr T on Oct 30, 2009 3:06 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All matter is really energy condensed to a slow vibration. We are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There is no such thing as death. Life is only a dream and we are the imagination of ourselves.

Bill Hicks

Life is just a ride folks. Enjoy it while you can. Start singing/whistling:

Always Look on the Bright Side of Life

(from Monty Python's Life of Brian, words and music by Eric Idle)

Some things in life are bad
They can really make you mad
Other things just make you swear and curse.
When you're chewing on life's gristle
Don't grumble, give a whistle
And this'll help things turn out for the best...

And...always look on the bright side of life...
Always look on the light side of life...

If life seems jolly rotten
There's something you've forgotten
And that's to laugh and smile and dance and sing.
When you're feeling in the dumps
Don't be silly chumps
Just purse your lips and whistle - that's the thing.

And...always look on the bright side of life...
Always look on the light side of life...

For life is quite absurd
And death's the final word
You must always face the curtain with a bow.
Forget about your sin - give the audience a grin
Enjoy it - it's your last chance anyhow.

So always look on the bright side of death...
Just before you draw your terminal breath...

Life's a piece of shit
When you look at it
Life's a laugh and death's a joke, it's true.
You'll see it's all a show
Keep 'em laughing as you go
Just remember that the last laugh is on you.

And always look on the bright side of life...
Always look on the right side of life...
(Come on guys, cheer up!)
Always look on the bright side of life...
Always look on the bright side of life...
(Worse things happen at sea, you know.)
Always look on the bright side of life...
(I mean - what have you got to lose?)
(You know, you come from nothing - you're going back to nothing. What have you lost? Nothing!)
Always look on the right side of life...

:)

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an okay article but consider...
Posted by: khaleesi on Oct 30, 2009 3:13 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am actually a biomedical scientist working with epigenetics so I think I have a say in this argument and telling you my thoughts on the matter. First, you argue that we would be 'better designed' if indeed we were designed. I counter this with saying that perhaps the designer is not personified. Maybe this 'designer' is a being outside the realm of human perception, and your judging the level of biological perfection is very selfish indeed.
Just thought I would throw that out.
My personal beliefs are what I call "The Law of Infinite Possibilities." I myself am inclined to believe that if there is some kind of metaphysical intervention in human existence it would be far outside of our range of perception (we are limited to 5 senses after all) that contemplating or hypothesizing a definition for this would be a moot point.
So, the law of infinite possibilities comes into play because we are not sure and will never know due to this limited perception what all of the possibilities are. Therefore, the possibilities can be defined as infinite. So, there is a 1:infinity chance that someone is correct with there particular divinity choice. Those are bad odds to live my life around so I choose not to. I am not an atheist, though because that also is a faith that can be applied to the law of infinite possibilities. I am an agnostic Buddhist- choosing to live my life for all that I know of its being which is right here and right now.

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» this depresses me Posted by: Drclaw
» RE: this depresses me Posted by: redbridge
» Origin of life? Posted by: suprmark
» RE: Origin of life? Posted by: khaleesi

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What?!
Posted by: khaleesi on Oct 30, 2009 3:18 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Greek mythology is not real!!!! WTF?!

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» So, Greek mythology is not real? Posted by: avillarrealpouw

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argument?
Posted by: BobPomeroy on Oct 30, 2009 3:20 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A sophist with a lotta straw men.

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» Experience may vary Posted by: uphill
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» RE: xperience may vary Posted by: uphill
» RE: xperience may vary Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: xperience may vary Posted by: uphill
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» ??? Posted by: uphill
» RE: ??? Posted by: bornxeyed
» Buddhism Posted by: uphill
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» RE: Buddhism Posted by: uphill
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Stop arguing, for cripes sake.
Posted by: lkregula on Oct 30, 2009 3:28 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The fact of the matter is that you can't prove or disprove the most fundamental difference between religion and atheism: the existence of a higher power. If you think you can, then you're forgetting an important idea about science- you can never fully disprove a hypothesis. All you can do is amass evidence for one hypothesis over another, and there's no way to test whether or not there's some higher power. All disproving these tenets of religion does is prove that any possible higher power may not be interacting with our world. So atheism is just as much a religion as theism of any sort. So get over your high-minded, self-righteous, self-superior selves and stop berating religion. Really. It's getting old and not winning any favor. It's just bickering at this point. So act like the intelligent, tolerant people you typically profess to be.

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» quite so Posted by: Drclaw

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Entire article?
Posted by: Nightowl on Oct 30, 2009 4:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can only see the first page. I assume other have seen all four pages. Where are they?

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» RE: click on view as 1 page Posted by: surfreality

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These arguments are as silly as the religionist's
Posted by: SufiLizard on Oct 30, 2009 4:35 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Again, you prove the argument that evangelical atheists are just as unbending in their reasoning as the fundamentalist Christians.

Saying we don't fully understand consciousness and then saying that we have proved it's completely biological is intellectually dishonest.

And when you have to anthropomorphize God just to disprove his/her/its existence, aren't you guilty of the same silliness as the Creationists?

I think it's healthy to question and challenge our beliefs, but only in intellectually honest ways.

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Near-death experiences?
Posted by: uphill on Oct 30, 2009 4:57 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As someone who's had a near-death experience, I was hoping that would figure somewhere in her debunking. Her three examples don't occur to me much personally, but this is Problem No. 4 for me.

I wouldn't wish it on anyone really, it's scary, but I have to admit it's a life-changing experience. It doesn't happen to everyone (fortunately, IMO) but it's happened to countless millions of people over the ages, and I wonder if the religious impulse itself may have originated in our prehistoric ancestors' reports of such experiences. In evolutionary terms, the results of a human being gored by a mammoth or being hit by a car wouldn't be much different, would they? - in a span of only 10,000 years or less.

Why do our brains do such a thing? What would be the evolutionary benefit?

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» RE: Near-death experiences? Posted by: isnamthere
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» ok Posted by: uphill
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» assuming Posted by: uphill
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» Finally we agree! Posted by: uphill
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One human Requirement for God is based on as Assumption that Time is Linear
Posted by: tony_opmoc on Oct 30, 2009 4:58 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems pretty obvious that time is linear and things are created and destroyed. Its just an observation that goes without question.

So the child asks - who made me - where did all this come from? It must have started somewhere. The answer is that God made everything.

But the answer is a cop out. The child knows this, and so asks who made God? The reply is that God has always existed.

This is quite a sensible reply. No one demands that God was created out of nothing, and that there was a time before God was created.

We don't need anything to create God.

So why not redefine God as the Universe or the Universe as God?

Why demand to know the answer of how the Universe was Created?

It makes far more logical sense to consider the possibility that the Universe has always existed and always will exist. It simply changes continuously.

If this idea is drawn to its logical next step, it makes far more sense to consider the possibility that time only appears to be linear and is actually cyclic or global in nature. Almost everything that at first seems to be linear - the earth being flat for example, turns out to be a wrong assumption.

If time is in fact cyclic, everything gets repeated forever. If true, there is no escape by death. After an almost infinite period of time - which is irrelevant when you are dead, you will again become conscious in your Mother's womb, and live exactly the same life as you did before. There never was a first time, You have always done this and always will. And its the same for all life in all parts of The Universe or God if you like.

Tony

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No sense in arguing
Posted by: Axiom69 on Oct 30, 2009 4:58 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the grand scheme of things the 70-80 years here on earth is just a moment compared to eternity. So quite shortly we will die and out of the hundreds of religions we will finally find out who was right. Unless of course it's the atheists then we will just die and never find out... lol

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» RE: No sense in arguing Posted by: bornxeyed
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Biology As Destiny
Posted by: sunnywater on Oct 30, 2009 5:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One of the problems that have been described, of horizontal rather than vertical self- identification, is particularly relevant here, for the concept of peer-group pressure is now far more significant in the educational process of the young than it has ever been before, due to outmoded educational tools and experiential differentiation.

This loss of continuity has created an alienation that may almost seem the product of mutation rather than what was once called future shock.

That does not mean that there are not useful mutations occurring, of course there are, but they are occurring at roughly the same rate they have always done, and what was perceived as the main problem is the effort of society to "keep pace" with the burgeoning informational sources and widening demands.

Choices in this regard are always difficult because, of course, the culture does not tend to support them. However, exigencies of the present and future will tend to incline those capable of adapting to adapt.

At the moment, one of the problems facing the instruction of the young is that teaching standards, methods, and applications are approximately fifty years behind the current state of knowledge, and because the tools to teach these thought processes now necessary are not generally present in education.

Many people experience extreme frustration, not for lack of discipline but for lack of educational relationality. While modifications would not be necessary to cope with all this, modifications of education undoubtedly are, and unfortunately, academic territoriality being what it is, the necessary changes are apt to be slow in coming.

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My God, Greta!
Posted by: sawdust on Oct 30, 2009 5:09 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
(Pardon the expression).

You have been sucked into producing four web pages of useless fluff, by the religionists and the atheists, and by the believing non-believers..and for what? To make a vain attempt to prove that something cannot be proved? To confirm that the improbable is more improbable than it was last week? This is a dead subject, a pointless discussion and you have been hoodwinked into wasting your time and ours. This is genuinely disappointing and you have offered up better substance.

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Infinite
Posted by: Frustrated Farmer on Oct 30, 2009 5:20 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems to me that living in an infinite universe that it is fairly ignorant, not to mention very pathetic, of us not to believe that somewhere there is not a superior if not a supreme being.

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Silly
Posted by: leafsong1 on Oct 30, 2009 5:24 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So, basically, what the author is saying is that just because you aren't a Christian fundamentalist, that doesn't mean that you don't have religious beliefs that atheists should sneer at, a point which is both obvious and inconsequential.

Beyond that, it should be pointed out that there is no real difference between asserting that life was intelligently designed and asserting that it was designed by a process of natural selection; the predicted results are identical, because natural selection is a process of natural intelligence.

The problem with "spirits" and an intelligent universe is that they lack a definition which would facilitate proof or disproof. To say that such things are disproved is to ignore the main rational reason to not enshrine such concepts as beliefs, and it is also incorrect. Does the author even comprehend what an infinite universe truly is and everything that infinity could contain? No, the author is talking out her ass; no mind can know what she claims is obvious.

Yeah, sure, we can call these things silly. But in the context of beliefs which are so much sillier and more harmful, why would we?

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» correction Posted by: Drclaw
» agreed Posted by: Drclaw
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» I agree with you Posted by: Drclaw

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Rational Thinking
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on Oct 30, 2009 5:26 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We like to think of ourselves as rational, but really we are not. Rational thinking is something we may be lucky enough to learn in school, but unfortunately it is not hard to pass through our educational system without ever learning any logic, either formal or informal.

Even when we do learn rational thinking, we may not completely accept it. I recall a teacher I had in high school who first introduced me to careful logical reasoning. He was also a very religious man. The one time I ever saw him get angry was when one of his students tried to apply logic to religion.

My teacher was quite clear on his feelings about this subject, showing he had thought quite a lot about it. "Religion is different", he said, "logic just doesn't apply there". He probably had found the one way to reconcile these two topics.

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Intent...
Posted by: Cybershaman on Oct 30, 2009 5:37 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A few decades ago I was in the same place. The difference was, I could not just dismiss evidence that there was more going on than the 'rational mind' could measure with it's mechanical extentions. Hypnosis was one such area. Why was it, I asked myself, that in a hypnotised state the mind was capable of such amazing control of the body, and yet, was not able to do these things in an unhypnotised state? In fact, the whole spectrum of 'subconscious' phenomena was fascinating so I decided to explore the possibilities instead of just dismissing them.
The placebo effect, spontaneous healings, the ability to 'feel' the focused attention of another on the back of the neck, precognition, sleep mode, and a slew of other nomena kept me from assuming anything. As I poured myself into it I found that the subjective nature of it was inherent.
I will not try to convince you that there is more going on than meets the eye. You must do that for yourself. Do not let the ego define reality because it it self-serving. It's dominance is dependant on keeping your blinders on. Open up to the possiblities and see whether there is 'magick' out there for yourself. You'll be surprised.

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» Do you not have access to google? Posted by: daniel1982
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We Are All Connected
Posted by: deutsey on Oct 30, 2009 5:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"I think nature's imagination is so much greater than man's. She's never going to let us relax." Richard Feynman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGK84Poeynk

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Rambling About God(s)
Posted by: QQOblivion on Oct 30, 2009 5:48 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am an agnostic, officially. (I am not CERTAIN either, for instance, that at the center of the moon there isn't an amusement park.) But I admit that all the good arguments are put forth by the atheists, and none are put forth by the theists.

That said, what if "God" DOES exist? Maybe "God" isn't good or has super-powers. Maybe "God" didn't create the universe. Maybe all God does is observe. Or maybe it is the other way around.

Watching the news, I tend to believe sometimes that a benign God definitely doesn't exist BUT the Devil certainly does.

Maybe God is the 'zero-point energy of the false-vacuum' (maybe), to borrow terminology from physics.
This energy is the lowest possible energy of empty space, which is a positive amount of energy, since -- because of quantum physic's uncertainty principle -- there can be no energy lower than this. (For, if there was zero energy in parts of space, then this energy level would be absolutely certain, which is forbidden.)

So, maybe God's existence is defined by uncertainty itself!

Or maybe God is just hogwash. That would be okay with me, actually.

I think conformity is at work here when it comes to religion. We believe in "God" just because our parents and other people believed in it, and they believed in it just because still others believed in it before them.

In any case, maybe science should be used to finally absolutely disprove (or prove) God's existence once and for all. I don't think anyone should be afraid to look, anyway. But I think we are.

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Keep After The Fools!
Posted by: Pinko on Oct 30, 2009 5:58 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Articles like this do change minds... Not immediately, but eventually.

The Atheist meme must be repeated over and over, preferably with attitude and intelligent wit for maximum impact. People with living brain cells will eventually seek the truth and find it: THERE IS NO GOD.

Humanity would be a lot better off without the crutches of superstition. Religion is and will always be a polarizing principle causing far more damage than good. It's not necessary for explaining the physical world, and it's not necessary for moral values.

Don't be a Jew, a Christian, a Muslim, a Free Presbyterian, or a locked-up Presbyterian.

BE A HUMAN BEING.

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» RE: Keep After The Fools! Posted by: jaded

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If one buys Greta's arguments on consciousness
Posted by: surfreality on Oct 30, 2009 6:04 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
then there is no such thing as enlightenment. Tell that to the countless sages of almost all religious and spiritual traditions over the last 3000 years who have experienced what the Zen call shunyata.

I know of no biological process that explains the phenomena that results when people attain this state.

Greta, have a conversation with Eckhart Tolle. It's ok, I do not beleive he considers himself "religious".

For hard empirical evidence into reincarnation check out the LSD research of Stanislav Grof. Another good resource for documented
cases of rebirth in both the east and west is Choygal Rinpoche's "The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying".

What seems problematic to me about accepting nihilism is that it reinforces "me first" behavior. And we all know how harmful that is.

Then there's quantum mechanics... where sub atomic "particles ' are more easily explained as "events" ( rather than as actual physical entities ) that happen " here" then "there" but not "in-between". It's interesting how closely that approach to physics corresponds to Buddhist mahayana philosophy on "emptiness"...

When your god tells you to crash planes into my city that's a problem.
If you try to tell me spiritual practice is based on myth that's problematic too.

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» Please don't do that... Posted by: daniel1982
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Maybe you're not thinking big enough.
Posted by: Chickensh*tEagle on Oct 30, 2009 6:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe the designer isn't guiding evolution to produce ideally adapted species, but tinkering with different systems of evolution initiated under different conditions. Maybe, with a few tweaks, evolution will produce better results overall in the next universe.

Just a thought. Anyone want to make a religion out of it, I get 15 percent of the gross.

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and just maybe
Posted by: Marlena on Oct 30, 2009 6:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"god" is so far removed from us as to take absolutely no notice at all??

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Err....of course the universe is conscious
Posted by: Sagan on Oct 30, 2009 6:28 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Technically, your assertion that the universe is not sentient, self-aware, etc is not correct.

Obviously the universe (or at least a small part of it) is conscious; A part of the universe is typing this post right now and several other parts of the universe will read and consider it sometime later.

I am the universe (and so are you).

New Age-iness aside, it is a simple and indisputable fact that every single atom in your body and mine is no less a part of the universe than the atoms that make up the stars. The universe is not merely "outer space"; it is obviously the Earth and ourselves as well.

That fact alone is awe-inspiring and fascinating enough without the need to insert primitive animism or tribalistic paternal detities into everything the way the theists (traditional and non-traditional) do. That is why science allows a fuller, richer, more awesome grasp of the real wonder of our existence.

"Hydrogen is a light, odourless gas, which, given enough time, turns into people." - Edward R. Harrison, Cosmologist

....now the only question is just *how much* of the rest of the universe is conscious as well?
I hope to live to see the day when we find out for sure.... :)

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In the immortal words of John Lennon...
Posted by: moloko velocet on Oct 30, 2009 6:29 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Whatever gets you through the night....it's alright, it's alright."

'Nuff said.

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Paul Bigioni
Posted by: Bigioni on Oct 30, 2009 6:42 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wow. It doesn't usually take 4 pages to say that we cannot prove the existence of God. This article is pretty weak, in the sense that the author presumes that our knowledge of evolution is complete. Our understanding of how species evolve grows and changes over time with new discoveries and analyses thereof. Concluding that God must have faked a fossil record is tantamount to having a God-like confidence in the completeness of our knowledge. The faith many people have in the existence of God is no more illogical than the faith that scientific inquiry can and has given us a complete knowledge of reality. It seems to me that religious fundamentalists and strident atheists both share two traits in common: a singular lack of imagination and intellectual arrogance.

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Spirit World
Posted by: ClassAct on Oct 30, 2009 7:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For me the answer to these questions is a physical one. As we survey the cosmos, we expect to find indicators of life, and we expect those indicators, the presence of water and of complex hydrocarbons, to produce the reaction that we characterize as living. But why? Could there not be some other set of reactions overtaken by living processes on Earth? The fact that we expect such processes to be universal speaks to the idea that emergent phenomena in general are consistent because they are physical and they are inherent in the cosmological rules of this universe.
But if life with its self-oriented behavior (which is not to say selfishness) is an emergent consistent physical phenomena, what then of neural information, awareness, sapience, and "consciousness"? They would likewise be available dimensions of the cosmos under the correct conditions. The existence of a "spiritual" dimension as such as part of a physical universe is a plausible hypothesis, although a cerebral cortex would be required to be an actor in such a realm.
God, however, is nothing but a social character used as a mask behind which believers claim divine authority for their personal opinions.

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The Universe is a Program in God's Mind
Posted by: tlwinslow on Oct 30, 2009 7:29 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That settles it :)
http://historyscoper.angelfire.com

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The Scotch Verdict
Posted by: GPFrank on Oct 30, 2009 7:32 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Not Proven"
Let us start with a belief stated as: "There is a force that guides everything." Now Horace may name this force he believe in, "God" but Emily may name this force "Evolution" Now one may say to the other,
"If there is Evolution God guides it" but the other may turn that around and say,
"God may be guided by Evolution." Wait. Don't stop there. One says to the other "Aren't we saying God guides God or Evolution guides Evolution"? Well people such as Spinoza came with that business a long time ago, "God is that which guides (God)itself." '
But I prefer Karen Armstrong's take on the subject her latest book "The Case for God"
Religions is not explanation but is an activity carried on like art. It consists of doings as calling to the Unknown, rituals, symbols stories myths and metaphors ;giving to charity. Like art it does not seek to explain anything but to worship what is worth worshiping.
Art and religion are intertwined human activities that are hard to explain except that they are ways of communicating.
I practiced as a chemist so it is remarkable and yet plausible and rational how atoms and molecules are structures put together to make more structures; the probability and timing of a process being subject to kinetic theory.
On consciousness we know that sensations and perceptions are correlated with chemical changes in physiology. Nobody has ever seen a perception, sensation or any form of consciousness without the chemistry being present in the organism. (except on Halloween)
That is not to say that the color and the
optical pigment are the same. But there is merit to the pragmatists who say if there is no end to the argument forget about it.
Also Russell and Wittgenstein warned us to be aware when we are talking about language talking about itself.

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Yes, but....
Posted by: spiritof1877 on Oct 30, 2009 7:32 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Science" is merely a cultural construct and has itself become a dogmatic religion. There's more than one way of understanding something. As for the author's assertion that things can only be proven/unproven by science I say bs. According to quantum physics (and a lot of "religions" as well) you cannot separate the observer from the act of observing. Not to mention that science has a penchant for disbelieving in the existence of something merely because it lacks the tools to measure it (like the atom et al) I am not a religious person and I dont believe in god, but on the flip-side, I dont believe in the religion of science either. It has caused a multitude of problems, and, like statistics, is very easily manipulated.

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Book Review: Genesis
Posted by: Crazy H on Oct 30, 2009 7:50 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
By R. Crumb - as an old hippy, I remember Mr. Natural and Fritz the cat with fondness.

So, when Altenet clued me in as to the existence of Genesis, as illustrated by R. Crumb I immediately hit Amazon & ordered a copy.

It brings the story vividly to life. Of course, he had to improvise a little: Teh Babble merely states that god slew Onan, it doesn't say how. So R's got an old man whacking him over the head with a rock.

All the women have big boobs & big nipples: typical R. Crumb style. There's lots of sex, of course, but it isn't overly graphic.

There's both creation stories, one after the other just like in Teh Book; and they don't quite match just like the Teh Book.

I do wish he'd stuck to the KJV a little more closely - it just doesn't sound right without all the thees and thous and convoluted grammar.

It's worth it just to make a few more people read it in its entirety, rather than just picking and choosing those stories that the sermon stuffers told 'em to pick and choose.

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» Nervous, Onan? Posted by: GuitarBill
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The Greatest Show on Earth
Posted by: soulrebeljc on Oct 30, 2009 7:58 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
New book by Dawkins. Read it. It puts everything to rest. (Not that it should have been necessary.)

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God In The Sky
Posted by: melpol on Oct 30, 2009 8:06 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It would be a horror if an Atheist like Mao Zedong seized power in America. He would hang all religious leaders and close houses of worship. Prayer would only be allowed in silence. Fortunately god up high in the sky will prevent this from ever happening.

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» RE: God In The Sky Posted by: fc7711
» RE: God In The Sky Posted by: MrMarx
» RE: God In The Sky Posted by: Old Skeptic

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Maybe not
Posted by: DynamicDriveler on Oct 30, 2009 8:08 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We see anatomical adaptations severely constrained by the fact that each new version has to be an improvement on the previous version (or at least, not a deterioration from it).

Not necessarily true. It's entirely conceivable that an anatomical adaptation, as a result of environmental pressures or simply a random mutation, could take place that is a deterioration from a past version while not being detrimental to the organism. Note: our distant ancestors once had tails and we still have vestigial tails - the tail did not improve, it became less and less functional as it was no longer needed.

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A page full
Posted by: fc7711 on Oct 30, 2009 8:10 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Funny, mention silly religious beliefs and get flooded with comments full of them.

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No point in going after religious moderates
Posted by: ColinLaney on Oct 30, 2009 8:23 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Religious moderates are important allies in the struggle against religious crazies. It is better to work with them rather than waste political time and energy lecturing them on their rationalizations.

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Hmmmm
Posted by: Tweck9 on Oct 30, 2009 8:26 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Can't say I agree really. I'm not a very religious person, so I'm not defending religion, but I think your article is a bit misguided.

Maybe the nature of consciousness to you is just some cold, material thing that is created by synaptic impulses in the brain, so I can understand your position - but I don't think you actually debunk any of these things that you call 'silly' (a word that exposes the true bias lurking behind your attempted 'objectivity').

Unfortunately you are just kind of poo-poohing anything that hasn't been proven by science, or at least suggested by science. If not scientific evidence exists, not only do you disbelieve, but you call anyone who does "silly".

I would offer the following:

The universe is incredibly large, so terribly vast that we have no concept of how large it actually is. Talk of multiverses and sub-sub-sub-atomic folded up dimensional spaces and tiny infinities upon which mathematical formula collapses and reverses and stops functioning, and all this string theory and M-theory, replete with Alternate Universes, Multiple Universes, etc. etc.

Considering this, you cannot say that there is no collective consciousness or overarching life-force that connects everything, that this all builds up to.

There's no way for you to debunk the theory of a Conscious Universe without doing an incredibly amount of as-yet-undiscovered math and/or measuring or viewing our Universe from a macrocosmic level. You'd have to grow to like 200 billion light-years in size before you'd be able to even get a partial glimpse of the incredibly galactic vastness surrounding our very, very, very small, limited perceptions.

So you cannot say for certain that the Universe does not have a brain, or that it is not part of something much vaster than even itself that is perhaps organic in nature.

I assert that there are likely so many energies in our Universe that we have no ability as of yet to measure, and/or have not even conceived of the possibility of.

There is evidence of shared-consciousness experiences between people. Explain to me how once, when my head was resting against that of my wife, we talked to each other in our dreams. Our consciousness would have had to literally go outside of our heads and into each others', intertwine and have this communication. If consciousness was merely a function of the activity of the brain itself and had no extra-cranial existence, then how would this be possible?

Have you ever dreamed about an event that happened shortly thereafter? A particularly clear dream? I know that I have. This makes me believe that there is something much more collective going on than merely some organic function of electrical activity in the brain that simply ceases to exist when the brain dies.

Basically, your arguments don't really hold up, and I think you're being closed minded to very real, scientifically plausible possibility, simply due to the fact that science hasn't yet determined how to measure those possibilities.

You use the lack of ability to measure something as an indication of its nonexistence. I find this to be a very large logic jump, and almost a total logical fallacy.

But good try. I do enjoy this debate.

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» RE: Hmmmm Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: Hmmmm Posted by: bornxeyed

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Hold on!
Posted by: lclark on Oct 30, 2009 8:33 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1). There are others, including physicist, that argue that consciousness cannot simply be a epiphenomenon of matter because it is established that observation can effect how physical matter behaves. What is a by-product could not be a cause....
2). That leads to the conclusion that consciousness is primary, and the experience of matter is a consequence of consciousness.
3). The article assume that mind is a by-product of the brain, rather than the brain being a structure that structures the content of consciousness.
4). It has been discovered that information is tranmitted across the body faster than that information could be tranmitted using previously assumed chemical and electrical mechanisms. Hence there are modes of information that do not rely on those structures.
5). The author does not discuss some of the research that is beginning to bear fruit in the areas of telepathy, which is now beginning to be accepted as a real phenomenon and demonstrate that minds can communicate at a distance with no possible biological mechanism involved.
6). And as all such viewpoints, it ignores the experience of ordinary people who report seeing and communicating with freinds and relatives that have died. These sorts of experiences permeate peoples actual lives, though are discounted by the "rational", i.e., materialist social worldview.

I'll give the author some credit for the critique of particular religious beliefs, but he is simply not correct in arguing for an exclusively material universe.

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» Hold on yourself Posted by: bornxeyed

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now ms. debunker...
Posted by: undrgrndgirl on Oct 30, 2009 8:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
PLEASE debunk your own foolishly held belief that new agers, neo-pagans and wiccans are more common in northern california...as a northern californian i'm sick and tired of other californians reinforcing the 'tree-hugger, vegetarian, woo-woo' stereo-type prevalent across the rest of the country...

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» Could be worse Posted by: Axiom69
» ...or even worse Posted by: moloko velocet

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There's something going on...
Posted by: mooresart on Oct 30, 2009 8:59 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...we just don't know exactly what it is. I don't believe in God but don't consider myself an atheist either. I'm a seeker. I remain open to the mysteries of the Universe.

I "believe" in the collective consciousness, synchronicity and psychological archetypes, a la Jung, and leave it at that.

If scientists say we use only a small portion of our brains who's to say what the vast, unexplored regions of it contain? Many mysteries, I'm sure. I think of the brain as a physical organ through which the "inner" Universe is observable much like our eyes observe the "outer" world. Everything is linked together.

I've had many precognitive dreams in my life and out-of-body experiences, too, and can't easily dismiss these experiences so I tend to take them as valuable road maps in my progression toward enlightenment while leaving the baggage of dogma behind me.

Religion and science are but parallel roads. Unfortunately, the religious road is full of potholes (Hagee, Warren, Roberston, et al) but that doesn't mean it can't take you to your destination if you successfully negotiate your way around them.

Religion got screwed up when it became the tool of the politicians.

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» No fair!!!!!!!!!!!!! Posted by: Drclaw
» WAY! Posted by: bornxeyed

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Prejudice and Bias ≠ Truth -
Posted by: khephra on Oct 30, 2009 9:35 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I found this article rather inept and filled with prejudice. Although I eschew creationism and religious cosmogonies, I am not so naive as to buy into the materialist paradigm.

1: Evolution guided by God - This hinges upon your concept of "God". If you've adopted a theistic interpretation (Old Man in the clouds), of course we don't see evidence. However, if your interpretation of "God" is more mature and nuanced, we see *plenty* of evidence. For example, the fibonacci sequence or phi. If we look for underlying order, we will find it. This "unordered orderer" mask of "God" has far more substantiation than the "Old Man in the clouds" mask.

2. Immaterial Soul - Okay, how do you account for remote viewing? NDEs? Both of these phenomena have been studied extensively by reputable governments and agencies.

3. Sentient Universe - The argument behind this point was just silly. It seems like the author doesn't really have much understanding of what consciousness and intelligence entail. That's to be expected, as there's a great deal of ambiguity behind these terms among the general public. Trees are conscious. Earth is conscious. The sun is conscious. Our solar system is conscious. That doesn't mean it thinks about what it wants to wear tomorrow, or frets over getting dissed. But conscious they are.

For additional readings in consciousness and teleology, interested readers might see:

"The Accidental Universe", Davies
"The God Theory", Bernard Haisch
"Quantum Evolution", McFadden
"Intelligence in Nature", Jeremy Narby

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» Happened to me, too, X. Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Happened to me, too, X. Posted by: bornxeyed

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Can we Talk About Divine Order?
Posted by: edgar_michel on Oct 30, 2009 9:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And perhaps the use of the word "divine" may in itself be misleading and enabling of irrational beliefs. But the word might also make a connection for the religious to the real universe.

There is some kind of order to our universe that is revealed to us through generation after generation of rigorous study. At each step of the way we hang on to the revelations of the previous generation like the the universe will explode if we abandon them, but after a bitter struggle on the way to letting go we find that the universe was still here after all.

I think what we as humans need to do is to find our place in the universe which is facilitated through the process of discovery. There is a kind of divine order to the universe that is evidenced by the very material it is made up of which surprisingly is very ordered; Up and Down Quarks, Top and Bottom Quarks, Strange and Charm Quarks and electrons. And for every elementary particle there is surprisingly its antiparticle. To suggest that the universe isn't ordered would be to deny the facts.

The question then arises; if there is definite order at the fundamental level, is that order propagated outward to larger and more complex systems. I hypothesize that there is an order to the universe and that it is the human prerogative is to discover that order and it own place in that order.

There was a natural order to the earth system before the advent of technology that supported all the life systems we know about and those systems perpetuated life on this planet for 3.5 billion years.

I think it would be wise for us to re-discover our place in that order and to assume for now that it is an inviolable divine order of which we are a part. I can't say whether that order generalizes to the entire universe or whether it applies only to our precious little earth, but again I think it would be wise to assume that this order we see here on earth does in fact generalize to the entire universe until we have evidence to the contrary. Such a hypothesis would assume that there are millions of civilizations across our galaxy and beyond because that is a natural expression of universal order.

I think that as we evolve we will come to understand more about the order of the universe and our place in it. I think our consciousness is enhanced when we walk a path that resonates with universal order, an order that subsumes the natural process of life on earth, and diminished when we don't. The way we do this is by re-establishing our connection to the earth and our place in it. I think if we do that, the order of the universe will become more apparent, like looking out on the stars on a once clear night free of the obtrusive glare of the city lights.

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» RE: gobbledygook? Posted by: edgar_michel
» RE: gobbledygook? Posted by: edgar_michel

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A stupid, superficial and profoundly simple-minded article.
Posted by: tommy_slothrop on Oct 30, 2009 9:42 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I know for a fact that there is life after death. I have known people who have died -- and there's still life. I know from personal experience that people who are dead influence my daily experience and consciousness: people who I knew that have died and still inhabit my thoughts and people who died before I was born but have left intellectual and spiritual legacies which have influenced me and the culture into which I was born.

Some people (I'm not one, particularly) find it useful to address the ground of their existence as "You." By doing this they are saying nothing about the universe. They are saying something about themselves and their relationship with their experience.

This is a choice. There is and never will be any material evidence for or against the validity of that choice.

That said. I believe that all religions should be objects of ridicule until they repudiate in no uncertain terms the cretinous pissheads that claim religious justification for the slaughter and persecution we see around us.

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I love the humility
Posted by: I_am_pollyanna on Oct 30, 2009 9:44 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I love the humility of atheists. Almost as inspiring to me as the humility of Bible-thumpers.

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» RE: I love the humility Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: I love the humility Posted by: jaded
» I love the humor Posted by: bornxeyed

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What about ghosts?
Posted by: Robba29 on Oct 30, 2009 9:46 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I was watching Ghost Hunters on The Travel Channel, and they saw orbs and apparitions. Yeah, explain that!

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» I was given a 1 Posted by: Robba29
» RE: What about ghosts? Posted by: YogiBear

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Dogma is what is foolish
Posted by: carrotwax on Oct 30, 2009 9:49 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I find dogma on both sides foolish.

People who dogmatically cling to spiritual beliefs in the face of obviously contradictory evidence are foolish.

On the other hand, skeptics who dogmatically cling to the belief that all new agers are stupid and that they can prove God doesn't exist are foolish, as are those who think they can prove it's "better" to let go of all spiritual beliefs.

I have no problem, for instance, to people who think that God created the universe with all it's laws and that the universe evolved according to God's laws which we are still discovering. When it comes down to it, there's really no difference between that and science. So what's the problem?

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Wrong beliefs vs. right?
Posted by: Old Skeptic on Oct 30, 2009 10:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This discussion is similar to a cartoon that appeared yesterday. "Non Sequitur" by Wiley showed the Pearly Gates, with two open doors. One door was marked "Right religion this way" and pointed to the right. The other was marked "Wrong religion this way" and pointed to the left. (Both doors apparently led into Heaven.) Everyone was going through the right-hand door, while St. Peter remarked to an angel, "Funny how they never get the humor" (or words to that effect).

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This article is insulting.
Posted by: Longdream on Oct 30, 2009 10:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The article is ill-conceived, and contains a fallacy as its main concept: One can never prove a negative of anything. That's Logic 101, a course that I suspect Ms. Christina skipped, as her use of logical terms like 'corollary' and her example of same are, shall we say, unstudied.

And among the things we know is that, whatever consciousness is, it seems to be an entirely biological process. A massive body of evidence points to this conclusion.

Some of the finest minds through the centuries have contemplated the nature of the mystery of consciousness. Thank God Ms. Christina is here in our time to clear it all up for us. I'd have been a bit happier if she had looked up what is meant by consciousness before she embarked on her debunking of it, or whatever it is that she did, but I've gotten over being shocked that she equates it in part with "unconsciousness", as in being knocked out. Apples and oranges never fought a more vicious war.

I have no intention of taking this incoherent, ridiculous mess point by point. Let me just say that the concepts she is into 'disproving' are not ideas which occur to her friends, the intelligent, non-silly people of faith, but are watered-down versions of evangelical platitudes like, "Intelligent design".

Ms. Christina: There is a whole world of people out here who do not need to believe that the Cosmos was created in seven days, nor that the earth is 6,000 years old, and believe it or not, still do not need to hammer any scientific principles into shape or make up some claptrap to justify faith in God.

My advice to you:

1. Get a writing coach. You're verbose, your tone is underhanded and your prose is a mess.

2. If you want to write about what intelligent people of faith say and believe, GO AND FIND SOME, AND TALK WITH THEM. Go round up a few Jesuits, or go into a Catholic Worker House. Find some nuns ministering to outcasts in the Church.

My guess is that at least one of the Jesuits you talk to will tell you that he didn't really believe in God until this-or-that experience, or until he had experienced the priesthood for twenty years. Don't understand that? It's only a molecule of what you don't understand about what intelligent, discerning, relevant people of faith are like. In short, there's vibrant spiritual life and action going on all around you, while you're whining about static nonsense.

Your article is slightly insulting to me, but that doesn't really matter. I just wonder how many people ignore the real life of the heart in contemplation or fail to explore the communities of people who worship honestly the mysteries of God who think their work is done when they read an article like this.

I have yet to see AlterNet present an intelligent, responsible person of faith as a writer here. Maybe I'm wrong, but I suspect not.

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» OK 'Dream, but what about Posted by: Drclaw
» RE: OK 'Dream, but what about Posted by: Longdream
» RE: OK 'Dream, but what about Posted by: lysdexia

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There is no sillier belief than this:
Posted by: Beck on Oct 30, 2009 10:19 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"I'm a better judge of belief systems than any other person."

Or maybe this?

"Everyone should believe what I believe."

There is no sillier attempt, or more futile, than anyone bothering to even address the beliefs of others, let alone change them.

I'll say this, though; if I've ever seen anything silly, it's atheism having turned itself into a movement that tries to influence what individuals believe, with books and spokespeople and quotes. It's absurd.

I want everyone to leave me and everyone else alone regarding beliefs. There are certain things that an article like this will never change. Of course, I doubt that any article judging and condemning omnivores ever created a single long-term vegetarian (and by long-term, I mean longer than a month) and yet they run them here over and over. I also suspect that not one change in the raising of meat animals has resulted from the articles that condemn how it's done. Some writing is just meant to make the author feel nice'n'smart. No atheist or believer will be influenced by the opinions of others. At least, I hope not.

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» "Decent people," eh....? Posted by: Aureantes

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Why are we talking about this?
Posted by: downbylaw on Oct 30, 2009 10:31 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Seems to me that Ms. Christina is an uninformed
and dogmatic person, and is very smug and self-centered in her illogical beliefs. Why aren't we thinking of ways to neutralize the truly dangerous fanatics, like Sarah Palin, instead of picking fights with reasonable people who also happen to be spiritual?

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Uncle Penn (not the Bill Monroe tune, by the way).
Posted by: GuitarBill on Oct 30, 2009 10:35 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Speak brother, Penn, SPEAK!

Video Source: VideoSift: Penn and Teller: Bullshit! The Bible.

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Telepathy, Foresight, Prayer, Outrageous Co-Incidence, Out Of Body & Near Death Experience & UFO's
Posted by: tony_opmoc on Oct 30, 2009 10:39 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have personally experienced all of these on numerous occasions....

And all sorts of other weird stuff...

Even when I've been completely sober.

But I must admit, I could rationalise most of these personal experiences as co-incidence (which is far more common than most people realise)...

But not all.

Some of my personal experiences defy logical analysis - well my own personal logical analysis.

Sometimes, its like a Bad Moon Rising - and there are a sequence of events - where EVERYTHING goes totally wrong - sometimes totally disastrously - and we know that something else is going to go wrong and it does - and you have just got to wait for the next bad - seemingly completely unconnected random event - and just hope we can survive it...

But the opposite happens too - where there seems to be some incredibly positive Good Force where Everything Goes Miraculously Right and Good...

I think most people have similar experiences, but are ashamed to talk about them, because they think people will think they are mad.

I've given up trying to explain them.

I'm quiet happy to use the word God for when things are good - and tell the Devil to Fuck Off when things are bad.

The important thing is to enjoy the Good times and survive the bad times, taking the view that eventually the horror will end, and Life will again seem Good and be Good.

After The Dark Comes The Light

And Without The Dark, You Cannot Really Appreciate The Light.

I have never seen a Ghost though, and I don't believe in them - even though I have had some rather strange experiences with Ouija Boards.

It wasn't my idea, but you tend to go along with anything if you are a young bloke in a room with several beautiful hippy girls.

Tony

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A telling distinction between religious believers and non-believers
Posted by: leerhok on Oct 30, 2009 10:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
BELIEVERS agree with non-believers that the religions of yesteryear are all fiction and no facts.

NON-BELIEVERS find no evidence or logic proving the religions of today are more facts and less fiction. Believers do.

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Skeptics must be skeptical of skepticism to be consistent.
Posted by: Sojourner on Oct 30, 2009 10:51 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I do not regard science as a skepticism, so employing it to be skeptical of religion is silly.

Beyond that is "monsters."

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» *shrug Posted by: Drclaw

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The Goldilocks Principle, Updated by Dr. Robert Lawrence Kuhn
Posted by: Overburdened Planet on Oct 30, 2009 11:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The PBS series “Closer to Truth”, narrated by Dr. Robert Lawrence Kuhn, never fails to challenge the imagination.

From the above link:
“The current production of "Closer To Truth", consisting of over 100 episodes for television broadcast and over 1400 web videos, is structured in three series: Cosmos (cosmology, fundamental physics, philosophy of cosmology and physics, emergence, science and religion), Consciousness (brain, mind, free will, personal identity, alien intelligence, parapsychology), and God (philosophy of religion, philosophical theology, critical thinking). Featured are over 125 of the world's leading scientists, philosophers, scholars and thinkers.”

Skeptic, the magazine, published “Why This Universe?" Toward a Taxonomy of Possible Explanations, written by Dr. Robert Lawrence Kuhn:

“The 27 possible explanations, or ultimate reality generators that follow, are based on criteria that are logically permissible, a logic that for some may seem lenient. I do not, however, confuse speculation with science. Logical possibilities should not be mistaken for scientific theories or even scientific possibilities.”

Link on the name of the article above to read more about each item listed below.

1. One Universe Models
1.3 Necessary / Only Way
1.4 Almost Necessary / Limited Ways
1.5 Temporal Selection
1.6 Self Explaining

2. Multiple Universe (Multiverse) Models
2.1 Multiverse by Disconnected Regions (Spatial)
2.2 Multiverse by Cycles (Temporal)
2.3 Multiverse by Sequential Selection (Temporal)
2.4 Multiverse by String Theory (with Minuscule Extra Dimensions)
2.5 Multiverse by Large Extra Dimensions
2.6 Multiverse by Quantum Branching or Selection
2.7 Multiverse by Mathematics
2.8 Multiverse by All Possibilities

3. Nonphysical Causes
3.1 Theistic Person
3.2 Ultimate Mind
3.3 Deistic First Cause
3.4 Pantheistic Substance
3.5 Spirit Realms
3.6 Consciousness as Cause
3.7 Being and Non-Being as Cause
3.8 Abstract Objects / Platonic Forms
3.9 Principle or Feature of Sufficient Power

4. Illusions
4.1 Idealism
4.2 Simulation in Actual Reality
4.3 Simulation in Virtual Reality
4.4 Solipsism
————————


How deep down the rabbit hole are you willing to go?

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» Oops, missed one: 1.2 Brute Fact (n/t) Posted by: Overburdened Planet

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Yesterday I Posted Someone Else's Views That Were Incredibly Derogaratory About Alternet's Editor
Posted by: tony_opmoc on Oct 30, 2009 12:04 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He simply deleted the post.

He didn't ban me from posting...

Which I thought was completely O.K.

Fuck Me - If I Was a Journalist Trying To Make a Living From Writing Words With Passion and an Enormous Amount of Research...

Well I Don't Know What I Would Do...

I Would Like To Think That I Wouldn't Have Deleted It..

But Maybe I Would Have Felt Threatend

I Have Been Reading...

This Can't Be Happenning

http://www.thiscantbehappening.net/

We all know Joshua Holland Is Really Talented and Has Got His Heart In The Right Place.

Thank You Joshua For Not Banning Me

I Won't Post THAT Photo of You From DailyKos

Tony

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greta thinks the earth is flat too...
Posted by: Annapurna1 on Oct 30, 2009 12:14 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
greta claims that there is no consciousness outside the brain simply because you cant see it with an MRI..EEG..etc.. unlike the workings of the brain..which you can see...

by analogy..i cant see a curvrature of the earth either.. and based on measuring the fenceposts around my lawn..all the physical evidence points to the earth being flat...as such..this supposed curvrature of the earth must be an idiotic religious superstition...

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evidence...
Posted by: aebartle on Oct 30, 2009 12:25 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Faith is the evidence of things unseen. If you don't want to believe in God, don't believe in God. I am one of those "intellectually dishonest" progressive religious folks the author refers to who believes in God and evolution. There is no contradiction between science and religion. They are trying to answer two different questions. Science asks, "How?" Religion asks, "Why?" Science will never answer the why question, just as religion will never answer the how question to anyone's satisfaction, and we shouldn't expect them to. Most of the atheists I know don't consider the why question to be important, but I think most people want to find meaning, even though it may be unknowable in this life.

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» actually Posted by: Drclaw
» sure Posted by: Drclaw
» The "why" question Posted by: clresu
» Sorry, Posted by: clresu
» RE: evidence... Posted by: lysdexia

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Mostly people make shit up, mostly.
Posted by: DaBear on Oct 30, 2009 12:28 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That's how I see it. It's fine with me if you wanna believe in shit, just be honest and admit you made it up and it works for you. Own that. I only have a problem when you're making policies based on your shit you've made up and not owning that you made it up and ramming it and the implications of it down my friggin' throat.

I loved the response to the second one: "2: An immaterial soul that animates human consciousness."

For me this is precisely proved by the axiom in my subject line. Because the brain does weird shit and when people take that weird shit seriously as if it's an animate immaterial consciousness or soul or spirit, okay, now we're in delusion land. Fine if you're into it, but admit you made it up and own that.

And to the New Agers in no. 3, whatever, man. Get over your damned selves. And stop stealing Lakota and other Native cultural practices. It really pisses me and assloads of Native People off.

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What if there is no right answer?
Posted by: bodhidude on Oct 30, 2009 1:14 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have the same issue with many atheists as I do with religious fundamentalists. The issue is the seeming need to convince others that atheism is the truth and religion is wrong or ignorant. That need to convince is often infused with incredible emotion and even rage just as it can be with fundamentalists. I would even offer that atheism in some of its forms could be seen as the fundamentalism of science and materialism.
The issue here is the "need" to be "right" and to convince others to see the world in the same way. In my view, no matter what the issue that process represents egotism and the need to validate ones experience through the agreement of others.
Religion is responsible for incredible suffering and ignorance in our world but so is science and materialism. Either one can be misused or used to fuel the inflation of egos.
Human beings can be incredibly arrogant about what they think they know. Science is in its infancy in our civilization, who knows what it will unfold and develop into over the next 25, 50, 100, 1000 years. That is unless misuse of it destroys us first.
I don't believe that science can explain everything or that materialism encapsulates the totality of this universe. There are many experiences that science cannot address but which human beings can directly access.
If you look at reality through the lens of science that is all you see, if you look at reality through the lens of religion and God that is all you see. Our beliefs can be very limiting. I find not knowing more appealing, it leaves the mystery open and mystery and meaning are sorely lacking in our modern materialistic world, much to the detriment of our collective mental health unfortunately.

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s
Posted by: Constitution on Oct 30, 2009 1:14 PM   
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scientific inquiry has absolutely nothing to do with any God or religion or atheism. Religion no matter its form is an emotion you don't reason with emotion.

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Cranberries
Posted by: tony_opmoc on Oct 30, 2009 1:17 PM   
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Very Best Stall Seats
Blocks G or O- RIGHT NEXT TO STAGE!
VERY BEST SEATS IN THE HOUSE!!
£85.00

It's at The Royal Albert Hall (Standing)
...

But I have already Seen a Band Called ZONE do It Better - Down My Local Pub...

However, I will mention it to my wife...

We have Never Actually Seen The Cranberries

And I think they may be worth £170 for One Night

The Cranberries are an Irish rock band formed in Limerick in 1989 under the name The Cranberry Saw Us, later changed by vocalist Dolores O'Riordan. Although widely associated with alternative rock, the band's sound also incorporates indie, indie pop, rock, post-punk, Irish folk and pop rock elements.

The Cranberries rose to international fame in the 1990s with their debut album, Everybody Else Is Doing It, So Why Can't We?, which became a high commercial success and sold over five million copies in the United States. The group was one of the most successful rock acts of the '90s and sold over 14.5 million albums in the United States alone. The band has achieved four top 20 albums on the Billboard 200 chart (Everybody Else Is Doing It, So Why Can't We?; No Need To Argue; To the Faithful Departed and Bury the Hatchet)[1] and eight top 20 singles on the Modern Rock Tracks chart ("Linger", "Dreams", "Zombie", "Ode to My Family", "Ridiculous Thoughts, "Salvation", "Free To Decide" and "Promises").[1]


Tony

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» RE: Cranberries Posted by: sunnyjaswani

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The Goldilocks (Anthropic) Principle, One Consideration
Posted by: Overburdened Planet on Oct 30, 2009 1:43 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Science defines 18 cosmological and terrestrial variables and their extremes, where life can exist only within a narrowly defined medium between those extremes.

And religion requires God to be the source of those variables.

What appears to be missing in the “debate” between science and religion is the fact these conditions, while currently hospitable to our existence, can and have changed over billions of years.

Given sufficient time, many of these variables will “swing” from one extreme to its opposite.

And in a relatively short period of time (geologic), the earth could be subject to its sixth major extinction event, likely to wipe us out, not to mention humankind’s ability to more quickly shift the environmental balance, maybe more likely to wipe us out.

Religion fails to explain how God plays any role in the overall history of cosmological and terrestrial extremes. Life wasn’t possible 13 billion years ago, and life won’t be possible (on the surface anyway) billions of years from now.

Our existence, if dependent on a creator, is limited in time and no more a constant than the story of creation or creationism; whether taken as literal or figurative, religion is at odds with our ultimate direction—or demise—as the entire universe reaches absolute zero.

Besides:
Why does the Book of Genesis have two variations of the creation story?

How did God come into existence, or if God has always been in existence, who/what created God?

When God said: “Thou shalt have no other gods before me,” does this mean God acknowledges the existence of other gods?

See my next post for the list of principles...

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Goldilocks (Anthropic) Principle
Posted by: Overburdened Planet on Oct 30, 2009 1:44 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Number of Stars
+1% Tidal interactions disrupt planetary orbits
- 1% Heat produced insufficient for life

2. Parent star birth date
More recent: Not yet stable burning phase
Less recent: Stellar system would not yet contain enough heavy elements

3. Parent Star Age
Older: Luminosity of star would change too quickly
Younger: Luminosity of star would change too quickly

4. Parent Star Distance from center of galaxy
Farther: Quantity of heavy elements would be insufficient to make rocky planets
Closer: Stellar density and radiation too great

5. Parent Star Mass
Greater: Luminosity of star would change too quickly; star would burn too rapidly
Lesser: Range of distances appropriate for life would be too narrow; tidal forces would disrupt the rotational period for a planet at the right distance.

6. Parent Star Color
Redder: Photosynthetic response insufficient.
Bluer: Photosynthetic response insufficient.

7. Surface Gravity
Stronger: Too much ammonia and methane in the atmosphere
Weaker: Atmosphere would lose too much water

8. Distance from Parent Star
Farther: Too cool for stable water cycle
Closer: Too warm for stable water cycle

9. Thickness of Crust
Thicker: Too much oxygen would be transferred from the atmosphere to the crust
Thinner: Volcanic and tectonic activity would be too great

10. Rotation Period
Longer: Diurnal temperature differences would be too great
Shorter: Atmospheric wind velocities would be too great

11. Gravitational Interaction with a Moon
Greater: Tidal effects on the oceans, atmosphere, and rotational period would be too severe.
Less: Planet’s orbital obliquity would change so much as to cause climatic instabilities.

12. Magnetic Field
Stronger: Electromagnetic storms would be too severe
Weaker: Inadequate protection from hard stellar radiation

13. Axial Tilt
Greater: Surface temperatures would be too great
Less: Surface temperatures would be too great

14. Reflectivity (Albedo)
Greater: Runaway ice age would develop
Less: Runaway greenhouse effect would develop

15. Oxygen to Nitrogen Ratio / Carbon Dioxide and Water Vapor Levels
Greater: Runaway greenhouse effect would develop
Less: greenhouse effect would be insufficient

16. Oxygen to Nitrogen Ratio / Ozone Level
Greater: Surface temperatures would be too low
Less: Surface temperature would be too high / Too much UV radiation at the surface

17. Oxygen to Nitrogen Ratio / Atmospheric Electric Discharge Rate
Greater: Too much fire destruction
Less: Inadequate nitrogen fixing in the soil

18. Oxygen to Nitrogen Ratio / Seismic Activity
Greater: Too many life forms destroyed
Less: Nutrients on ocean floors (from river run-off) would not be recycled to the continents through tectonic uplift

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You had me until point 3
Posted by: navman on Oct 30, 2009 1:53 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Your first two points are quite convincing although of course the very logical argument you make will convince no one who is trapped in a belief based worldview. Until recently I would have agreed with your third point about a sentient universe as well however after watching "A Universe From Nothing" by Lawrence Krauss (on You tube), I'm not nearly so certain about this point. Professor Krauss provides convincing evidence that most of the stuff in the universe is actually contained in "nothing", and that elementary particles continually go in and out of existence from this "nothing". This is real evidence based physics, not new age nonsense. If we currently understand most of what makes up the universe as nothing, the universe may be stranger than we can ever know and who knows what forces are behind it, remaining to be discovered in that great unknown. Clearly the evidence is that the cosmos is indifferent to our needs, and in now way connected to human consciousness, but we have much to learn before we can make such broad and assured assertions. We already know that we are connected to the stars in the most fundamental ways. All the atoms in our bodies were created in stars, long ago and far away. We may find that all things are connected in ways we could never dream of. A humbling thought indeed.

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We Went To Our Local Library In Our Village Square And Saw A Photograph Of Our Other Local Pub
Posted by: tony_opmoc on Oct 30, 2009 3:02 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Taken in 1870

Our Main Local Pub Has Not Been Corrupted...

Because We Simply Could Not Allow It

You Can Turn Up at Our local and say what the fuck you like...

We couldn't give a fuck what you look like and have no interest in the colour of your skin....

Yes we will talk to you and welcome you and its perfectly O.K. just to turn up and have a Free Glass Of Water

That is What The Pub Was Built On

The Pub Provides a Travellers Rest

Over Fresh Water

You Don't Have To Pay For a Pint Of Beer

If You Have No Money You Can Have Free Pure Water

And If You Want a Job

You Can Work In The Lavender Fields

Didn't I Mention That It Smells Rather Nice In Our English Village

Tony

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The Most Honest Answer
Posted by: NoPCZone on Oct 30, 2009 3:34 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't hold to any particular belief regarding the origins of the universe or if anybody/anything holds the reins. The simple truth is that we do not know. Despite the arrogance on both the hard core atheist and theist sides, there is no conclusive body of proof- only theories and philosophy.

I was raised in the church and am quite familiar with the psuedoscience that is nothing but repackaged theology designed to fit their arguments. Although I long harbored doubts, I gave the church and other faiths a good long chance and it all doesn't add up even within their own context.

On the atheist side my problem is the arrogance attached to the blunt statement that there is no supreme being. I doubt it, but then saying it's impossible smacks of hubris on a rather grand scale. There is no doubt that evolution is real and that the earth and universe is much older than that described by any ancient faith or philosophy hatched from the mind of humans.

I know many atheists will call agnostics fence sitters and such, but I see it differently. Evolution describes a process and does not describe control, intent or purpose. Am I holding my breath looking for a supreme being that is the author of it all? No, but I have no proof that something of that description does not exist.

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One, Two, Fail
Posted by: Eric.Arthur.Blair on Oct 30, 2009 3:41 PM   
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I can pretty much go along with #1, and it's somewhat important to me because there are people who passionately want to force me to believe otherwise, not to mention indoctrinate children with irrational nonsense on the topic.

I'm not so sold on #2, although it's still an important topic because there are people who believe that the insubstantial, imperceptible impossible-to-prove-without-dying-it-exists soul is more important than the one life I know I have. Of course belief in and the existence of the soul is key to belief in and the existence of an afterlife. On the one hand, I would like to think that when I go, I'll be reunited with my late wife in a way that I can appreciate (and if I could be absolutely sure of this, I would gladly shuffle off to the reunion right now). On the other hand, there will be the eternity I have to spend with all the scads of assholes I hate.

On #3: a big fail. Suppose the universe is conscious; it would have to be a structure so vast that an individual like you or me would have as much chance of perceiving it as an individual cell; DNA strand or intestinal bacterium would have of apprehending my own mind. It's not important to me because I don't know of any radical New Agers/Neo-Pagans/Wiccans who are hell-bent on convincing me there is (not only that, but a conscious universe is not part of any dogmatic NeoPagan or Wiccan doctrine, but a matter of belief left to the individual). Most people I know who do believe in something like that believe it in a sort of Jungian collective-consciousness/racial memory way.

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dualistic perception
Posted by: maxsmart on Oct 30, 2009 5:13 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are limited by our perception. The universe is a wholistic system. There is no outside of the system, there is no center or edge. It isn't controlled by anyone or anything it is self controlled.

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Being In Love With a Girl
Posted by: tony_opmoc on Oct 30, 2009 6:42 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Being In Love With a Girl Is The Ultimate

Well For Me

When I Can't Think About Anything else, and I just want Her To Be My Friend

And I am Too Shy To ask This Complete and Utter Angel Out to come and have a drink or see a band or go and see a film with me or have a ride on my motorbike.

Its like a combination of heaven and hell

I can't ask her out in case she turns me down and then I will just have to kill myself...

If you haven't felt like that then you have never seen her.

Tony

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There Seems To Be a Rather Large Number University Students in Our House at The Moment...
Posted by: tony_opmoc on Oct 30, 2009 7:52 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There Seems To Be a Rather Large Number University Students in Our House at The Moment...

What Should I Do?

My Daughter Has Invited Them

But The Number Seems Rather Larger Than Normal


Sure We Can Get About 20 kids sleeping in our attic and various other places in our home

We have sufficient food to support them for about two or three days...

Then hopefully they will all go back to their University Courses Plotting The Future of Humanity Whilst Some Are Working On The Essential Back Job of Prosecuting Tony Bliar and His War Criminals For Committing Crimes Against Humanity...

They Just Want Him To Become War Crime Leader Of The EU

That Will Give Them Loads of Meat To Eat

Tony

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The Scientific Worldview
Posted by: gborchardt on Oct 30, 2009 9:12 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Your are right on! A shameless pitch: I bet you will love to read my latest book, "The Scientific Worldview." (www.scientificworldview.com)
Glenn Borchardt

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Admit it
Posted by: Philip Newton on Oct 30, 2009 9:51 PM   
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You don't know. You are never going to know.

There is a place where every honest searcher comes to -- "I don't know."

Greta, you are trying to apply your human understanding to something trans-human.

Don't confuse mechanics with the Mechanic.

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Christians & Lions...
Posted by: red porch on Oct 30, 2009 10:08 PM   
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Atheists run from religion because they see the harm therein - the more cognizant, the more the horror is evident.

Because it is just as impossible to define something which does not exist, as it is to define something which does, it is enough to say ...I don't believe in YOUR god, then stop.

I am equally suspicious of those tagging themselves as Christian|Muslim|Jew|Buddhist or Atheist. You guys just ain't that smart! You're merely quitters. I'd rather have coffee with a street-sweeper who agonizes concepts over a lifetime. That's a mind worth knowing.

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experiential nondual realization transcends mainstream science and conventional religious beliefs
Posted by: rmforall on Oct 30, 2009 11:10 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
get off the lifelong train of ordinary awareness:

www.greatknowledge.org Candice O'Denver

http://tska.info/ "Time, Space, and Knowledge", Tarthang Tulku, Rinpoche 1977

Both of these are Dzogchen traditions, the core experiential essence within Buddhism -- the first practical and simple, the second profound and subtle.

http://www.keithdowman.net/dzogchen/index.htm superb translations from 650 AD on of core Dzogchen texts

The free daily mailings from NonDuality Salon include teachers ancient and modern, articles, book reviews, poetry, and art.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rmforall/messages/1
Lively Communion: Invoking Mutual Meditative Exploration 2001.06.22

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Science paints religion into a corner.
Posted by: AxeMan on Oct 31, 2009 12:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Before modern science, particularly before Darwin, virtually all of Christiandom subscribed to so-called young earth creationism and all that other stuff. Why? Because that's what the "Book" said. But when those notions were effectively debunked, three things happened: 1) many folks pretty much threw in the towel on the church thing, though more in Europe than in the USA; 2) some dug in their heels and said that the scientists were wrong and that the Book was right; 3) others decided that to survive, they had to adapt, and pretend that the writers of the Book were really just writing poetry or something like that.

Ironically, the hippy dippy "oh, it's just metaphoric" side of the coin has been in rapid decline since the 1970s. God is an all-loving God no matter what, even if you stay home on Sunday morning and boink your girlfriend? Then why bother? In America, fundamentalists may be a minority, but they're about half the churchgoing population: the people that actually give enough of a shit to show up, crack their wallets open, to push their faith on friends and strangers alike, and on everyone via political shenanigans. By stubbornly refusing to shift the goal posts despite what the eggheads say, and by telling their adherents and potential adherents that "you gonna BURR-UN in HEY-YELL!!!" if they don't get fully with the program, they've become much more robust than the liberal/mainline denominations since the 1970s. Refer to the theory of religious economy in Rodney Stark's "The Churching of America." Unsettling, isn't it?

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sentient universe or clockwork universe
Posted by: Bertvan on Oct 31, 2009 2:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author claims she doesn’t see any evidence for a sentient universe. Well, I don’t see any evidence of a mechanical universe, which is the only alternative. Sentience obviously exists --- in humans and to a lesser degree in other creatures. Since I don’t believe in miracles, or that sentience inexplicably “emerged” with the advent of life, I accept sentience as an aspect of reality. I have no objection to the author’s view of a clockwork universe -- so long as she doesn’t harass people who hold a different view. People who hold either view should be allowed to participate in academia, or any other role in society.
bertvan
http://30145.myauthorsite.com

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God doesn't WANT to be found!
Posted by: LightningJoe on Oct 31, 2009 5:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thanks for saying this. More people need to think about what they've decided to "believe."

If God "designed" us...

...we could expect to see humans who don't pay for their huge and biologically expensive brains with headaches and migranes. Backs that are more than just a "verticalized" version of a quadraped's backbone, complete with a lower-end sway curve that weakens it significantly. Appendixes that won't kill their bearers, if not surgically removed in time. Eyes that don't need lenses to see straight. Teeth that don't rot without devoted care. Breath and armpits that don't stink.

To say that God has been "tinkering" with our design ever since we started evolving, but somehow hasn't yet done away with such obvious flaws, is as much as to say that God hasn't really been thinking about what He's been doing, all this time. Which is as much as to say that God IS the natural process of evolution the biologists say has been operating. Which is as much as to say that God is blind, thoughtless, and operates by chance -- just like evolution.

Seriously, if WE are the best that God can do, then God's press vastly exaggerates His abilities.

There is only one way that we could see this body of evidence, and still posit that God is responsible for it all. And that is to posit that God WANTS to remain hidden; unknowable by anyone seeking proof of His existence. And surely, if that were so, then the God we are all told exists -- the omni-capable, all-knowing and all-powerful being we've heard SO much about, from His Christian adherents -- that being certainly would be capable of staying hidden from us all.

Which in turn raises the question of why -- why on earth -- do so many mere humans think that they know the mind of God? Have they outsmarted the deity, finding evidence of His existence that He somehow neglected to hide, or hid so clumsily that it was found nevertheless? But that would mean that God WANTED to be found, if we simple humans can suffice to find Him. Either He intends to remain hidden and is capable of doing so; or He wants to be found out, but still can't provide any proof.

And most humans who've "found" God, have found a very personal version of Him, largely unlike any other God that any other humans have found. A deity tailor-made, as it were, for each particular person. They have to get together in churches to agree on the version of God that they've found, lest their God be so watered down by His variety that He means nothing anymore; He becomes little more than a good feeling.

So, does God operate in subtle ways that cannot be distinguished from natural processes -- or is "God" in very fact those very same natural processes -- plus a human-manufactured "enlightenment?"

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Holy Crap!
Posted by: PJAW on Oct 31, 2009 6:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Or should I say "wholly" crap?

There is nothing like the subject of our origins and destination (particularly when referenced to "God") for stimulating conversation (or heated argument). Mostly because it remains a mystery and any discussion consists of little more than beliefs and opinions, things that we seem to defend with even greater ferocity than we do facts.

The mention of "infinite possibilities" was made in earlier posts, and it reminded me of a conversation I had with a friend over Labor Day. Well, maybe it was actually an argument. Whatever, I can't even remember the topic, nor is it important. At any rate, he finally resorted to the old chestnut, "Well, it's possible, isn't it?". To which I replied, "Sure, I suppose anything is possible. For example, it's possible that you might actually say something intelligent, but every time you open your mouth, the probablity goes down". His response was, "Well, that's kind of insulting". Which inspired a witness to the conversation to remark, "I'm surprised he caught that".

I'm sure the mystery won't be resolved before I die and I'm fine with that. And I think it's great that people continue to try and figure it all out, at the very least we've made some fascinating discoveries along the way. Happy Halloween! And remember to reset your clocks!

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"As Above, So Below"
Posted by: Purple Girl on Oct 31, 2009 7:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why does molecular structures nearly mirror astronomical?
Why is the movements of planets around a Sun similar to those of Protons and Electrons around a nucleus in basic design?
Why are sturctures within a singled cell animals carrying out similar functions as in multi celled animals? Whether it is a membrane or skin- it acts as a confining and protective barrier against the outside.
What you clearly misunderstand about these 'progressive' faithfuls is the fact they find 'God' in the discoveries made by science. For every question answered- 10 more are created. How can one look at the 'Eye' sent back from Hubble and not respond to the symbolism of it? Even the most Ardent Artheist had to take pause. It's an ancient sacred image ingrained in Man's collective psyche.
What you are really debating is the personification of "God". An elementary and limiting premise to begin with- regardless of whether you are debating a Believer or a Non believer. The belief in "God" can find a consensus when it's defined as a "force" rather than a person. In fact when you begin to avoid personifying attributes you will find more concensus between people as to the existence of a supreme power.
Ignoring similarties between what is seen in a microscope and a telescope is as deterimental to scientific inquiry as the idlemindedness of "Gods Will" . If you dismiss all patterns, how can you ever hope to relate new discoveries to what you have already learned.The similarities themselves are significant.

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» RE: "As Above, So Below" Posted by: PJAW

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"Silly is in the eye of the beholder.
Posted by: Bertvan on Oct 31, 2009 9:26 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Whether or not an idea sounds silly is an individual judgment, but nothing sounds more humorous to me than the notion that “natural selection” (premature death or reduced fecundity) might somehow organize a collection of genetic accidents into purposefully interacting biological systems. Furthermore, evangelical atheism can sound as abrasive to me as any other expression of intolerance. bertvan
http://30145.myauthorsite.com/

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Response to Irrational Article
Posted by: aberdeen on Oct 31, 2009 10:10 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree that the world is filled with both religious and non-religious people who believe many things that are silly. For example, atheists like Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and Bill Maher habitually blame religion in the grand belief in God sense, for the reason we have war, in spite of the overwhelming historical evidence of the American, French, Russian, Chinese, Cuban and many other modern revolutions, as well as Gulf Wars I&II, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea, Philippines, Spanish-American, Civil War, Mexican-American, War of 1812 and literally hundreds of other wars fought in the name of democracy, socialism, communism, capitalism, anarchism, progressivism and even human rights.

War is clearly historically invariably about taking wealth and protecting wealth and almost always about both. War is caused, as Jesus, Freud, Jung and the Britannica agree, by individual human beings making negative individual choices stemming from deep-rooted anger, fear, rage, aggression and sexual and other frustration and, is based on greed, avarice and other un-nice human attributes stemming from such both conscious and subconscious frustration. Since the invention of printing, "silly" excuses for war have been gradually moving away from "religious" excuses to more supposedly "intellectual" excuses, like the above "isms" listed.

Some logical questions to ask include, if belief in God causes war, how does one explain Gandhi, Schweitzer, MLK, Chavez and Mother Teresa, not to mention Isaiah, Jesus and billions of more peaceful people who strongly believed in God? It is just as logical and fair to claim that science and education causes war, as it is to claim that religion causes war, as both can be used to help people and both can be used to severly harm people, as the modern WMD and mass pollution trail of science and education clearly demonstrates, tracing back on through DaVinci's war weapon designs, Aristotles advice to Alexander and on back to improved spears, chariots and horse training techniques.

Conclusion: General atheist view of reasons for war = silly.

[ continued in next post ]

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Rational Response to Irrational Article
Posted by: aberdeen on Oct 31, 2009 10:13 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[ continued from previous post ]

Point One of your article: Your position on #1 assumes that the modern theory of evolution, although it doesn't remotely resemble the "evolution" believed when I was in high school, is somehow today correct from a true universal perspective. And, it pretends that if God does not create the way you, from your pea-hole of an inside the fishbowl view, believe that God should create, therefore there is no God.

There is zero evidence that the modern theory of evolution is "true" from a true, universal viewpoint. On the contrary, ALL known historical and current evidence indicates that evolution, like Newton's theory of gravity, is a convenient human construct, that works for certain human applications from our narrow, pea-hole perspective of the vast Cosmos. There is every historical reason to assume, as an actual practicing secular non-creationist biologist stated on PBS this year, that evolutionary theory as believed today, will likely be mostly if not entirely discarded within a generation or two. Already, there is significant growing evidence that life may have sprung up from all over the planet, rather than from a singular origination point as Darwinian evolution has long (apparently erroneously) assumed and was religiously drilled into me in high school and college as the "only" rational explanation.

For all we know, what causes life to arise emanates from the big bang, continues within stars in the heavier element formation process and as such, the "seeds" for life eventually enabling living conscious beings to arise, may be spread abundantly throughout the universal reality like so much living fertilizer, waiting for the right conditions for it to appear. Which as modern evidence indicates, the "right" conditions may well be extremely varied and entirely different than carbon-based life forms here. As such, life may well be able to appear, as one biologist has suggested, "wherever there is a little wetness" and as an astronomer has suggested, living methane-based creatures may be able to arise and float in gas giants like Jupiter.

And as such, life may well have sprung up from the ocean, on land, in clay, in dirt, in caves, in or near fresh water, under the earth or, may indeed have sprung up from all of these places; these are all places life may have began that various different secular biologists have suggested and, are not of my own invention. As several actual biologists pointed out in a PBS video aired just this year, how life came to be on our planet "remains one of modern science's greatest mysteries". And, as several quantum theorists, molecular biologists and astronomers have pointed out, today we understand far less than we vainly assumed we understood only a generation ago and, as one molecular biologist pointed out, it may well be irrational to pretend that science can ever remotely begin to have a valid explanation for how life arises and/or, how it adapts and functions in what human beings call the "natural world".

Points #2 and #3. Since as your article freely admits, there is little scientific understanding of conscious awareness, it remains scientifically prudent to disregard your position entirely, as it has no scientific foundation, basis or merit. If we don't know, then we don't know. Lack of knowledge has never disproven the existence of either God, Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy.

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Rational Response to Irrational Article
Posted by: aberdeen on Oct 31, 2009 10:17 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
{ continued from previous post; part 3 ]

And speaking of Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, which modern atheists are fond of pointing out that like God, they also don't believe in, one isn't left having to rationally explain the observable universal reality if one doubts the existence of Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. On the other hand, if one is going to pretend there is no God, then they need not only a different explanation for the known observable reality but rather, a "better" explanation. Otherwise, they are stepping outside the bounds of science and reason and, are merely believing in their own Santa Claus and Tooth Fairy superstitious nonsense.

Suffice it to say regarding your points 2 & 3, I don't find you criticizing Freud for believing that human beings have an "Id", "Ego" and "Superego". Perhpas the term "soul" troubles you due to some negative religious experience. However, neither what troubles you personally or language terminology proves anything, other than the obvious fact that modern science can change terms for what Jesus called "sin", yet it can't change the war, violence, rape, theft, mass pollution, WMD's, poverty and resultant human suffering, pain and sorrow that our sins cause.

And, suffice it to say that anyone who pretends that the grand universal design of zillions of intricate parts within other intricate parts, containing unknown quantities of beings of intelligence and conscious awareness, could arise all by itself, is practicing no better "science" than the most irrational of all known human mythologies, far more irrational than the ancient Chinese "universe on back of giant turtle" theory and, any modern seven-day fundamentalist creationist theory.

As Descartes stated as his first rule for the mind, "accept nothing as true that is not self-evident". And, as modern scientists in abundance have concluded, all human theory, understanding and knowledge breaks down at the point of origins, as well as inside of black holes and the original theorized pre-big bang singularity, it is irrational to pretend there is no God. If an atheist Quantum theorist could magically shrink down in size and crawl inside an automobile engine and say, "I see sparks and dust particles appearing randomly out of nowhere", would this prove that nobody is driving the car and, that no one designed the automobile or the road it is driving down?

All known evidence indicates "Eternal Creator(s)". There is no better explanation for the observable reality that I have ever heard of and as far as I am aware, there never will be. Thus, "Eternal Creator(s)" is the grand postulate of true science until proven otherwise.

Science, from a true and fair historical perspective, is defined as "the best explanation given the current known evidence". Where is your better explanation for the known, observable reality, than Eternal Creator(s)?

Conclusion: Atheism is non-scientific, isn't based on any evidence and therefore, atheism like all other superstition that isn't based on evidence, equals bullshit.

Related Video Essays:

Does Belief in God Cause War?

Is Atheism Scientific?

Is Richard Dawkins Smarter Than Jesus?

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» agreed . . . Posted by: clresu
» Excellent Article on Child Indoctrination Wars Posted by: Overburdened Planet
» Harpers Posted by: clresu
» Biocentrism and More, Part I Posted by: Overburdened Planet
» Biocentrism and More, Part II Posted by: Overburdened Planet
» Biocentrism and More, Part III Posted by: Overburdened Planet
» Biocentrism and More, Part IV Posted by: Overburdened Planet
» Biocentrism and More, Part V Posted by: Overburdened Planet
» Biocentrism and More, Part VI Posted by: Overburdened Planet
» Biocentrism and More, Part VII Posted by: Overburdened Planet
» Biocentrism and More, Part VIII Posted by: Overburdened Planet
» Link issue in my previous posts I thru VIII Posted by: Overburdened Planet
» Overburdened Posted by: clresu
» RE: Overburdened Posted by: clresu
» RE: Overburdened Posted by: clresu
» Overburdened — I Posted by: Overburdened Planet
» Overburdened — II Posted by: Overburdened Planet
» Overburdened — III Posted by: Overburdened Planet
» RE: Overburdened — III Posted by: clresu
» RE: Overburdened — III Posted by: clresu
» RE: Overburdened — III Posted by: clresu
» RE: Overburdened — III Posted by: clresu
» RE: Overburdened — III Posted by: lysdexia
» clresu - 1 Posted by: Overburdened Planet
» clresu - 2 Posted by: Overburdened Planet
» clresu - 3 Posted by: Overburdened Planet
» clresu - 4 Posted by: Overburdened Planet
» FAA, not FDA . . . Posted by: clresu
» Replies and Thoughts, Part I Posted by: Overburdened Planet
» ah, one objection to myself Posted by: clresu
» Replies and Thoughts, Part II Posted by: Overburdened Planet
» Replies and Thoughts, Part III Posted by: Overburdened Planet
» Replies and Thoughts, Part IV Posted by: Overburdened Planet
» As I continue to do . . . Posted by: clresu
» Replies and Thoughts, Part V Posted by: Overburdened Planet
» Anthropology Posted by: clresu
» General response, Part 1 Posted by: Overburdened Planet
» General response, Part 2 Posted by: Overburdened Planet
» General response, Part 3 Posted by: Overburdened Planet
» General response, Part 4 Posted by: Overburdened Planet
» General response, Part 5 Posted by: Overburdened Planet
» Replies and Thoughts, Part VI Posted by: Overburdened Planet
» Replies and Thoughts, Part VII Posted by: Overburdened Planet
» Overburdened — IV Posted by: Overburdened Planet

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Are Darwinists sillier than religionists?
Posted by: nemonemini on Oct 31, 2009 10:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Calling religionists silly will always backfire, what is more silly than the reductionist scientism of Darwinists?

from Darwiniana

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drives human evolution
Posted by: BlackRaiser on Oct 31, 2009 11:42 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You assume that consciousness is in the brain like air is in the lungs. Yet everyone knows there is a greater collective consciousness outside of the brain - we call it society, culture, and civilization. Like the air outside the lungs, it is considerably greater. This higher consciousness (or greater good) shapes nations and drives human evolution. You have a prejudice here and your judgment is impaired. Consider the possibility of extraterrestrial civilizations and consciousness increases beyond human measure.

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That we don't understand much about consciousness
Posted by: clresu on Oct 31, 2009 12:12 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
is quite an understatement. The only tool, ultimately, we have for understanding consciousness is consciousness. The thing we're searching for is the thing searching. Sounds like quite an ambitious undertaking for science. That it's somehow "silly," seen in this light, to think there might be more to the picture than science can possibly hope to reveal is what might prove to be truly silly.

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Stuck in the Shallows of Unbelief
Posted by: canawler on Oct 31, 2009 12:18 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Such a silly article. It's easy to discount the idea of divine intervention in evolution when your notion of a deity is so cartoonish. It's easy to shrink consciousness to an epiphenomenon of the brain when you embrace reductionism as the exclusive method of accounting for human experience. And the author’s Newtonian characterization of a “sentient universe” would benefit from exposure to the principles of quantum physics.

The author is locked into an idolatry of the lowest order in critiquing a primitive notion of God that is only a step removed from the golden calf and worshiping an empiricist ideology that pales before the mystery of the world’s creative advance into novelty. Centuries of scientific advancement have only sharpened the experience of the ineffable and heightened awareness of the spiritual nature of its source. There are more things in heaven and earth, Greta, than are dreamt of in your philosophy or proven in your science.

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Religion is about community, not so much god
Posted by: Smartcookie on Oct 31, 2009 12:39 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Quite frankly I tire of these diatribes and debates. Religious moderates are effectively atheists.

I think everyone is missing the PURPOSE of religion, almost all cultures have religions/rituals/traditions.

Religion is primarily about tradition and social community. This is completely lost on the naysayers.

I can say that there is no secular equivalent to a religious community, I'm a non believer myself but I can easily say I've found the greatest communities a lot of non mainstream religious faiths who take their faith seriously.

I find those who *are sane* and try to live their best as jesus did are some of the best people you'd ever know.

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Good Post
Posted by: sunnyjaswani on Oct 31, 2009 12:40 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Good Post Look Here Accounting

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God of the Gaps
Posted by: clresu on Oct 31, 2009 12:44 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The implication when one makes this "god of the gaps" statement is that there are only little gaps here and there, that science is certainly and quickly filling them all in, that what remains to be understood is very little, that god once had free reign but that now the idea of anything other than materialism has been almost completely squeezed out. Thus, now that science has pretty much all the bases covered, we can insert "god" into the few remaining crevices, until, that is, as will most certainly happen, science fills in these crevices too and all the simpletons are then forced to remove god from even these last little nooks and crannies. The absurdity of this should be apparent. As I noted in an above post concerning consciousness, the thing that's hoping to explain consciousness is, essentially, consciousness; the thing looked for is the thing that's looking. Seeing how our almighty science is still mute on this subject, I'd say that it's essentially done nothing as far as any real explanations - in that "cosmic" sort of sense - of what's going on.

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» WHAT? Posted by: thinks4herself2008

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Silly beliefs, not harmful in themselves
Posted by: geot1 on Oct 31, 2009 3:56 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
#1, guided evolution, is generally harmful only as an anti-environmental prop. It is a typical God-of-the-gaps argument that cannot be refuted dispute the constantly narrowing gap. It provides an excuse for sacrificing other values to increase human population. Other do the same without an excuse.

#2, the immaterial soul, is fatuous nonsense. Both material and "immaterial" -- whatever that is -- stuff is a combination of determinism and randomness. Just promoting your thoughts as "cosmic" does not expand the possibilities. But it just leads to mushy thinking in materially healthy brains, while disturbed brains don't need it.

#3, the sentient universe, is essentially a corollary of #2. It might cause some believers to exit early, but they usually hurt only a small circle of friends.

The main negative is that this silliness can lead to thetans from other planets and similar delusions, draining pocketbooks and encouraging prosyletism and other socially destructive behavior.

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"We are literally God exploring God’s self in an infinite Dance of Life."
Posted by: Amy27605 on Oct 31, 2009 8:56 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Item 1 I will grant you; you're on target there. On 2 and 3, however, I think you protest too much, as though you're trying to persuade yourself more than your readers.

Consciousness doesn't reside in the brain nor anywhere else we think of as "physical"; it, and we, and everything else, is energy that resides everywhere. The entire--and yes, sentient--Universe is the energy of consciousness. And, scientists are in the process of "proving" it. See such books as The Field by Lynne McTaggart; The Biology of Belief and others by Bruce Lipton; The Genie in Your Genes by Dawson Church; The Spontaneous Healing of Belief: Shattering the Paradigm of False Limits and others by Gregg Braden; there are many more.

A new book I'm looking forward to later this year is Journey Through the Light and Back by Mellen-Thomas Benedict. He's the most-studied near death experiencer in the world, having been dead--without vital signs--for at least 90 minutes before he returned to his body completely free of the brain cancer that had killed him, and with an amazing wealth of scientific information from the other side.

Here's some of what he learned:

"Every sub atom, atom, star, planet, even consciousness itself is made of light and has a frequency and/or particle. Light is living stuff. Everything is made of light, even stones. So everything is alive. Everything is made from the Light of God; everything is very intelligent...[T]here is no death; we are immortal beings. We have already been alive forever! ... [W]e are part of a natural living system that recycles itself endlessly. We are literally God exploring God’s self in an infinite Dance of Life. ... So is every other form of life, from mountains to every leaf on every tree...."

There's the New-Age-y joke about the scientist who, after years of arduously climbing the Mountain of Knowledge, finds at the top a guru who has been waiting. "What took you so long?" the guru asks.

Peace.

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» NDEs Posted by: clresu

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What the author holds as a primary assumption (1)
Posted by: clresu on Oct 31, 2009 10:17 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is that reality is objective, especially considering her simpleton implication concerning consciousness. It's strange to live in a time when it's regarded as scholarly and respectable to completely and utterly dismiss the obvious: that there's something that for all intents and purposes appears to be nonmaterial, subjective: everything that goes on internally - fears, desires, beliefs, thoughts, and so on. How does one reconcile this with the scientistic/materialistic view? Some go so far as to say that consciousness actually doesn't exist . . . yes, some really argue this. Others reduce it to something physical. Whether this implies something dualistic and what that means, I don't know; but I do know that there's something immaterial going on. It's so wildly silly to say otherwise, to deny the obvious, to deny what we experience at all times, day and night, it's difficult to articulate.

So, how does science study this immaterial world? As though it were material, and in the process completely denies the very existence of the thing that they're supposed to be studying: the speciality of consciousness. To get someone like the author to even admit to the inherent problems in this is close to impossible; I suppose it'd be tearing apart a deeply cherished paradigm through which she sees the world . . . much like tearing apart a fundamentalists view of the world which they've invested much of their 'self' into. Though there's all the upset by comparing scientism to religion, there's a seldom pointed out similarity that I must mention: they both crave something solid to stand on, something impervious to change, eternal, that is. Yet, the esteemed quantum physicist, David Bohm, in "Wholeness & The Implicate Order" argues that scientific knowledge is just the same as everything else: prone to flux and flow, unstable, changing. He means this, mind you, in a different sense than that that says science is always open to expansion and change b/c of new experiments and such. He means it somewhat in an eastern thought type way, in a sense that scientistic people quite dislike.

At any rate, to go back to the topic of the assumption that the author makes - that reality is objective, we can say that science is fine for studying objective things, physical things. But, of course, we have a hard time measuring things like beliefs, fears, desires, likes and dislikes, and so forth, so we must approach these things subjectively, which means that science will have to stand on the sidelines. And when we approach these things - the contents of consciousness - subjectively, we realize that this is something religious, for lack of a better word, or perhaps, mystical. When I reflect on my inner life, something that, once again, science is mute on, I realize, as William Blake said, that I've died and been "reborn" several times over during my lifetime. What's been reborn? I don't know. What's the connecting thread between my six year old self and my thirty-four year old self? I don't know. But, I'd say that mystical texts and artists like Proust are more illuminating on these subjects than science will ever be. I also know that by simply consciously observing the contents of consciousness, they're transformed - another death and rebirth, if you will. What this is and why this is and what it means is a mystery that we can't study with rulers and can't calculate with calculators. This death and rebirth that I've observed within myself is as equal to in mystery as the deaths and rebirths that I've observed in nature, despite that fact that science pretends to have "explained" these phenomena with chemical interactions and such. I mean, that's all good and fine, but, come on - it still in no way scratches the mystery.

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What the author holds as a primary assumption (2)
Posted by: clresu on Oct 31, 2009 10:18 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm reminded of the parable by Kahlil Gibran, "The Pomegranate," which is about the seeds inside a pomegranate discussing what happens to them "in the next life." Of course, none of them have any idea of what comes next: that the "universe"/fruit that they're in falls to the ground, they (ideally) end up in the ground, and they later become pomegranate trees that grow and produce countless pomegranates.

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Simple Truths.
Posted by: StoneOz on Oct 31, 2009 11:57 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
(1), Every Religion is juz another business using truths like bait for thier hooks to gut n eat u should u get caught.
(2). try researching conscious effects on water in the lab,. get 3 jars of rice, add some water, each day say i love you to one, i hate you to nxt & ignore the other.
(3)u obviously are missing the importance of Water. how its the only thing tht exists in 3 states naturally, it is everywhere, nothing cn burn without it , or live without it,. has bn factually recorded tht a glass of water tuned to the sun, detects solars flares instantly,. no timelapse.
(*)
I have Learnt tht Love is Fractal Energy & We Are Energy. With Conscious, all totally interconnected & yes i also believe we have a God, & were 'created' with sound & conscious , perhaps with a drop of water' & i also believe tht he found perfection in Jesus our elder brother giving us the key (Love ) & the template to pollenate frm earth as supreme organisms of her & the gods tht we come to be, our'selves'.

Free Energy, Community Food Gardens, Water Restructuring , Cosmic Conscious Accountability , Love & Respect for all beings Gr8 & small, Enlightn the Dark within us all~ ♥☮♡
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Nov22 - END THE FED! ♥
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNPn2JLz7Jc -VERY IMPORTANT FEMA STUFF
http://www.thecrowhouse.com/nwofs.html - New World Order Final Solutions.
http://peaceofmind.me/do-not-take-the-swine-flu-vaccine/
- Massive Compilation of Vaccine Facts!!
http://www.viddler.com/explore/ConspiracyFact/videos/73/
- Water Fact to Save Ur Life & Gr8 Tests & Proof of Power of Conscious Thought!
http://www.esoterictube.com/tibet-cry-of-the-snow-lion.html
FREE TIBET, FREE CHINA, FREE AMERICA , FREE AUSTRALIA , FREE BRITIAN , FREE THE EAST , FREE THE WEST , FREE YOURSELF! LOVE & END THE FED /WHO/WTO / IF ANY GLOBAL FORUM, JUZ A COSMIC CONSTITUTION FOR ALL BEINGS GR8 & SMALL BY ALL BEINGS GR8 & SMALL!
Rok on *Love* may u click on to tht scary unimaginable image n lift ur veil frm ur hate/fear /judgements, Enlighten ur darkest Regions with Love, Ur conscious is eva powerful,. all u have to do , is believe in Love. Respectfully. ♥ Peace, Love , Light , Health & Happiness to all who read this & search your own truths in the links or urself thru google,utube etc ,. the world is literally at ur fingertips! - Boom' ♥

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Concerning cosmic conscience
Posted by: Negative_Creep on Nov 1, 2009 2:17 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Surprisingly, out of the three theses presented in the (otherwise excellent) article, the case against the sentient universe is by far the weakest, owing largely to the author assuming that only structures that are KNOWN to give rise to consciousness CAN do so. As any exobiologist can tell you, this assumption is to say the least narrow-minded. As it stands, there's no reason to believe consciousness couldn't arise in nonorganic structures -- or even inmaterial ones.

That being said, there's of course also no reason whatsoever to believe such a consciousness could be interacted with on any level -- not least because the governing mechanics of such a "mind" would be radically different from those of our own. My point mostly is that refuting even the possibility of the existence of a cosmic sentience is precisely the wrong approach to take, and will only lead to the infamous "you can't prove a negative" counterargument.

(My apologies if I'm repeating what other have said. I kinda gave up on reading thru the comments after the 20th one based entirely around anecdotal evidence.)

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Does free will exist
Posted by: Bertvan on Nov 1, 2009 7:57 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Does free will exist? Those whose religion is materialism resort to convoluted arguments that free will is actually nothing more than the materialistic effects of deterministic brain interactions. Most of us are aware of how real and difficult some of our decisions and choices are. Philosophical materialism is a minority religion, but materialists have captured academia, and they attack any scepticism of their position by ridiculing some naïve religious belief. I am thrilled by the many thoughtful responses to this article. One doesn’t even have to be committed to belief in a personal god to be sceptical of materialism. To believe that free will/volition/consciousness is real. And how could I be so arrogant as to assume these non materialistic experiences are unique to me?
bertvan
http://30145.myauthorsite.com/

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» RE: Does free will exist Posted by: Negative_Creep

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web and woof
Posted by: isafakir on Nov 1, 2009 4:54 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
this tissue of confusion is built up from a web of straw men and a woof of twisted facts and torn decontextualized half truths.

it is as if you criticized a souffle for not paying close attention to current cardiology research.

people don't struggle to cook a perfect souffle because the believe it is good for their blood pressure.

religion has never been about scientifically verified fact. it is about becoming a better more caring, more loving, giving and forgiving person. Nowhere in the "Bible" is pie in the sky an issue. That's this or that someone else's commentary. God in Deuteronomy, Jesus in the Gospels, Paul in his letters, Buddha in the Deerpark, Confucious in the I Ching, Handsome Lake, the Great Peacemaker in the Iroquois Constitution, Aristotle in his Ethics all promise a life more lived, more fulfilled by giving forgiving caring and sharing.

Pseudo-Dionysius, The Cloud of the Unknowing, the Heart Sutra, the Tao Te Ching, and so on throughout the range of faiths all agree that the ideological details are not the point. His Holiness the Dalai Lama or St Francis of Assisi, or Ghandi did not do not talk dogmatics but change history, changed history by showing us how to put human realities ahead of all else.

why waste time on this philosophical game of gotcha, when babies die because nations won't feed clothe and care for mothers. Putting down god or idolaters is not the best use of our energies when there are profiteering corporations which have been given the human rights wrenched from humans.

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» RE: web and woof Posted by: Negative_Creep

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Honoring yourself and your thoughts and your life and your own path
Posted by: Beck on Nov 2, 2009 5:34 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No one should change their thinking because someone else thinks they should. No one should change their diet or political party because small groups are certain you're stupid to the degree you are not like them. There are some parts of ourselves we are allowed to hold separate and sacred, feeling free to evolve over time according to our own experiences, observations, events, study. While the writer is convinced of her own ability to gauge the silliness of others, and argues with tropes, there would be nothing sillier than any given person reading her and doing what she wants. It's too important, too personal, and almost certainly impossible. One thing I realized long ago when my fundamentalist Christian relatives were trying to born-again me: I could not do what they wanted. It was impossible. My brain and heart are not computers, changeable as if certain keys were hit. My whole life kept me from "accepting Jesus Christ as my personal savior". I could have faked it, and even tried, in my youth and naivete, and gullibility. But that didn't make it real.

I'd love to read an atheist write something that sounds curious and respectful and willing to leave others alone. I'd love to read a conversation with a human and not a trope. I've love to read a vegan write that men and pregnant women are different, and the consequences of being wrong are dire, and can lead to infant death. (And maybe address why so many of us know far more former vegetarians than current ones). I'd love to read any member of any tiny group engage with those they disagree with instead of opening mocking and despising the difference, and showing certainty that all that needs to happen is everyone being like them. When I read of the dangers of fascism coming to us, I think, what would be the difference? It's here, the beginnings of it. Should religion be illegal? Eating meat? How would a government of atheists deal with this? Would vegans lock us all up? The amount of passion people devote to the behavior and thoughts of others certainly sounds like it.

Leave everyone alone. Before writing another word on what's wrong with everyone else, how about 20 minutes a day working on oneself? Does anyone think that would lead to a worse world?

The Ba'Hai faith has a curious custom: no bringing it up to others unless they ask. You talk to them to the degree they display interest. It is a great idea.

Another good idea: no automatic correctness. There is no movement you identify with that allows you to assume you have the right to change other humans, or allows you to shift from a stance of improving others instead of yourself. Isn't that what was the problem with religions to begin with? Not leaving others alone? how about a basic rule of compassionate democracy including that first and foremost? There are plenty of actual humans to get into discussions with. It's tricky and risky: they might make you look stupid; you might not do well with a living person as opposed to a trope. If you want to win and convert, it won't be fun. They just will continue being human, darn it. They won't be a computer you can program to your satisfaction. This is exactly as it's meant to be. It is an important fact to face and accept.

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I agree with most everything in this article;
Posted by: monkeywrench on Nov 2, 2009 7:05 AM   
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But...

The fact that a single photon, split in a particle accelerator, being able to show up at two places simultaneously, AND with both halves reacting simultaneously to what happens to only one of them (remember, miles apart) indicates that we still do not have a complete understanding of the workings of our universe.

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» A caveat Posted by: Negative_Creep

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Oh, the arrogance!
Posted by: revclc on Nov 2, 2009 10:37 AM   
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Science (as you define it) = faith for you, Greta. Also, your concept of reason, or rationality, is not only your method but your idol. You really seem to believe you can know the ultimate nature of the universe. Only a postmodern Westerner would have such breath-taking arrogance!

On the matter of reason/science/empiricism being anyone's chief way of understanding ultimate reality, please consider how often the findings of science have been modified, expanded, and disproven by science's own methods.

On the matter of reason being your modus operandi, it isn't. Your disdain for religious people shows you are not really rational about this subject. The title of your piece is evidence of that. "Silly?" Name-calling and put-downs do not add to the integrity of any argument.

A tiny scintilla of humility -- similar, perhaps, to that of many "moderately religious" people, would help.

Honey, you ain't as all-wise or all-knowing as you think you are.

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» RE: Oh, the arrogance! Posted by: Negative_Creep
» Negative creep, (1) Posted by: clresu
» RE: Negative creep, (2) Posted by: clresu

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According to you, not believing in fairies is a religion?
Posted by: thinks4herself2008 on Nov 3, 2009 12:11 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"So atheism is just as much a religion as theism of any sort."

Theists seem to get their jollies by trying to call atheism a religion (as they want to put it on equal footing or something), but that's absolutely ridiculous. If someone told you that leprechauns lived in their attic, would you just accept that? If you disagreed because they could produce no evidence whatsoever, would that make your nonbelief a religion? I hardly think so.

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Playing Devil's, er, God's Advocate in this case.
Posted by: rickiey on Nov 3, 2009 7:55 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just to point out that the author should be a bit more accepting of belief structures that are not her own. Calling someone else's firmly held beliefs "silly" is NOT what tolerance is all about.

Nowhere in anatomy, nowhere in genetics, nowhere in the fossil record or the geological record or any of the physical records of evolution, is there even the slightest piece of evidence for divine intervention.

Sure there is. Everywhere that science explains by "random mutation", could be the guiding hand of a god.

If there had been a divine hand tinkering with the process, we would expect evolution to have proceeded radically differently than it has.

No, you would expect it to progress as the deity deems best, which is likely to be different from what your puny mortal mind deems best. Perhaps infirmaties and inconveniences are part of the god's plan, and perfection is not?

The universe does not have neurons, dendrites, ganglia.

Are you sure? Perhaps they are so large that you can not perceive them? Perhaps, they exist but merely aren't viewable in our limited 3D spacial perceptions? We have proven the existence of dimensions other than those we can actually perceive. Learn some quantum physics and come back to me. You'll find that quantum theory, scarily enough, lines up with many new age philosophies.

We know that their are "connections" that we can only perceive the effects of. Magnetism, for example, is a characteristic that is completely undefined by science.

Sure, we know how it behaves, we know the X magnetic field will affect Y object a certain way, but we still don't know "WHY". The current prevalent theories are either particle transmissions that we can't detect (magnetrons), or a physical connection between the two objects in a dimension that we can not perceive.

Before stating unequivocally what the universe does and does not have, it would be wise of you to learn exactly how much you don't know. Knowing that you do not know, is not ignorance, it is wisdom.

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what are the odds?
Posted by: yusandnick on Nov 4, 2009 5:04 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Religious people and atheists share the same human nature, so it's not surprising that their arguments are similar. They cling to the myths of their choice.

Science-wielding atheists have the stronger arguments today, because they have the new weapon of science to beat back the pre-scientific myths underlying mainstream religions.

But in my opinion they are no closer to truth than anyone else. Science has just begun, and it has answered only a very few questions. And no one has a clue as to what science will ultimately make of the fundamental question: Why is there something rather than nothing?

All scientists would have to grant that the odds of our present reality coming into existence precisely as it has are unimaginably small. And yet religionists and atheists alike seem convinced that the odds of their being wrong are even smaller.

In fact, no one has any idea what is going on.

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reply
Posted by: okeyshoe on Nov 5, 2009 6:54 PM   
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It's about?http://okeyshoe.com/

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what part of FALSE don't these people understand?
Posted by: counterpoint on Nov 6, 2009 11:19 AM   
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People love to hide behind the logic that you can't prove a negative.

But in what I'll boldly call reality we daily and reliably accept that certain claims are false when they have no predictive power, are contradicted by facts, or have no substance.

Similar concepts that work extremely well for us are:

implausible
without predictive value
vague
irrelevant
lacking clear definitions
subjective and not communicable

The question is which rank we should assign concepts in that latter category, and which domains of our lives we should allow them to govern.

Take fiction, literature, or art. They build imagined worlds, too. Fine. But their aesthetic appeal remains happily subjective and they don't demand us to "follow, or else!"

By contrast, most religions with their fictional worlds lay claim to truth and demand allegiance and compliance without ever providing evidence.

That's why anti-religionists like myself draw the line.

We can handle reality. And we prefer to live before we die. Being dead, as far as I can tell, is equivalent to the time before I existed. I'm okay with leaving it at that.

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You're being just as silly
Posted by: Acharn on Nov 6, 2009 11:41 PM   
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As an agnostic, leaning toward I've struggled with these questions and finally realized it's a matter of axioms. Any logical system depends on what axioms you start with. That's the difference between Eudlidian and non-Euclidian geometry -- one has the axiom that there is one and only one parallel line through a point, the other has either none or an infinite number of parallel lines through a point. Either system is complete, but they reach some very different conclusions about certain things. In geometry we don't have proof as yet which system best describes the physical universe we live in. The same way, there is no logical reason to choose the axiom, "Yes, there is a God," or, "No, there is no God." It's a matter of assumption (belief) rather that reason and is of a different logical type.

As for your argument about evolution, all you are really saying is, "I would have done it differently." You haven't shown any reason why an intelligent creator must have done it your way, or why an intelligent creator should not have done it the way it was done. You need to read the book of Job. God, speaking from the whirlwind, tells Job that he just isn't equipped to understand God's reasons for doing what He does.

As for the biologic basis of thought, I am emotionally on your side, but none of the things you cite are proof of anything. We see tha