COMMENTS: 190
Why Republicans Are in the Grip of an Apocalyptic Rapture Cult Centered on Revenge and Vindication
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The following is an excerpt from Frank Schaeffer's new book, Patience with God: Faith for People Who Don't Like Religion (or Atheism) (Da Capo Press, 2009) to be released at the end of this month.
Jerry Jenkins and Tim LaHaye's Left Behind series of sixteen novels (so far!) represents everything that is most deranged about religion. If I had to choose companions to take my chances with in a lifeboat, and the choice boiled down to picking Tim LaHaye, Jerry Jenkins, or Christopher Hitchens, I'd pick Hitchens in a heartbeat. At least he wouldn't try to sink our boat so that Jesus would come back sooner. He might even bring along a case of wine.
The Left Behind novels have sold tens of millions of copies while spawning an "End Times" cult, or rather egging it on. Such products as Left Behind wall paper, screen savers, children's books, and video games have become part of the ubiquitous American background noise. Less innocuous symptoms include people stocking up on assault rifles and ammunition, adopting "Christ-centered" home school curricula, fearing higher education, embracing rumor as fact, and learning to love hatred for the "other," as exemplified by a revived anti-immigrant racism, the murder of doctors who do abortions, and even a killing in the Holocaust Museum.
No, I am not blaming Jenkins and LaHaye's product line for murder or racism or any other evil intent or result. What I am saying is that feeding the paranoid delusions of people on the fringe of the fringe contributes to a dangerous climate that may provoke violence in a few individuals. And convincing folks that Armageddon is on the way, and all we can do is wait, pray, and protect our families from the chaos that will be the "prelude" to the "Return of Christ," is perhaps not the best recipe for political, economic, or personal stability, let alone social cohesion. It may also not be the best philosophy on which to build American foreign policy! The momentum toward what amounts to a whole subculture seceding from the union (in order to await "The End") is irrevocably prying loose a chunk of the American population from both sanity and their fellow citizens.
A time-out for disclosure is in order. I knew Jerry Jenkins quite well many years ago, and we worked on a baseball book project together, with me trying -- and failing -- to get his book made into a movie. I liked Jerry and he was kind and decent. I also have known Tim LaHaye for years, and some thirty years ago we shared the platform at several fundamentalist events. Both men always treated me well. This may come across as maudlin BS to some people, but I mean it when I say that if I weren't convinced that their hugely "successful" work is about as innocuous as tossing gasoline and lighted matches into a nursery school, I'd never say a word about them. I'm betting that they mean well. It seems to me that they also have no idea what they have helped unleash. You can be very decent and very blind.
That said ... the evangelical/fundamentalists -- and hence, from the early 1980s until the election of President Obama in 2008, the Religious Right as it informed U.S. policy through the then dominant Republican Party -- are in the grip of an apocalyptic Rapture cult centered on revenge and vindication. This End Times death wish is built on a literalist interpretation of the Book of Revelation. Too bad. This weird book was the last to be included in the New Testament. It was included as canonical only relatively late in the process after a heated dispute. The historic Churches East and West remain so suspicious of Revelation that to this day it has never been included as part of the cyclical public readings of scripture in Orthodox services. The book of Revelation is read in Roman and Anglican Churches only during Advent. But both Rome and the East were highly suspicious of the book. The West included the book in the lectionary late and sparingly. In other words, the book of the Bible that the historical Church found most problematic is the one that American evangelicals latched on to like flies on you know what.
Given that Revelation is now being hyped as the literal -- even desired -- roadmap to Armageddon, it's worth pausing to note that it's nothing more than a bizarre pastoral letter that was addressed to seven specific churches in Asia at the end of the first century by someone (maybe John or maybe not) who appears to have been far from well when he wrote it. In any case, the letter was not intended for use outside of its liturgical context, not to mention that it reads like Jesus on acid.
The evangelical/fundamentalist literalistic "interpretation" of Revelation is symptomatic of a larger problem: make-it-up-as you-go-along biblical interpretation suited to hyping whatever the evangelical/fundamentalist flavor of the moment is, in a desperate effort to keep religion relevant. But taken out of the context of being part of a worship cycle, the Bible became something like an extremely sharp butcher knife in the hands of children running around a garden. There's nothing wrong with the knife per se, but context is everything. Enter semi-literate American evangelical/fundamentalist rubes armed with multiple "kitchen knives" and imbued with a frontier "no bishops or kings!" suspicion of any tradition, scholarship, or hierarchy that might moderate their wild-eyed personal "interpretations" of scripture and their burning desire to make a buck.
Note: This excerpt originally contained the entire text of chapter 8 from Schaeffer's book -- it has been reduced at the request of the publisher.
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Posted by: Malamute on Oct 13, 2009 1:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As an Atheist I do not like this title, Atheism is nothing more than not believing something, why would that be disliked? I no longer believe in Santa or an egg-laying Easter Bunny, am I to dislike them?
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» He's okay with lack of belief. It's the self-described "movement" with its billboards and
Posted by: Beck
» RE: He's okay with lack of belief. It's the self-described "movement" with its billboards and
Posted by: Malamute
» It's against internet rules to
Posted by: LightningJoe
» Oh, Malamute!
Posted by: zipper696
» The Bunny Thanks You For Saying That!
Posted by: LightningJoe
» RE: Who are these people who don't like a lack of belief?
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Who are these people who don't like a lack of belief?
Posted by: Haji54
» RE: Who are these people who don't like a lack of belief?
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Who are these people who don't like a lack of belief?
Posted by: LightningJoe
» Highly Recommended: The "Conversations With God" Series
Posted by: SkeeterVT1
» RE: Who are these people who don't like a lack of belief?
Posted by: Eric.Arthur.Blair
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Posted by: cordas on Oct 13, 2009 1:56 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can't wait to be one of those damned atheists left behind!
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» peace of mind comes from within
Posted by: dogeatdog
» RE: how can i help to save our planet?
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» Keep your religion out of the public sphere
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: Keep your religion out of the public sphere
Posted by: Jbuuty
» RE: Keep religion personal
Posted by: Changling
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Posted by: Blacktiger on Oct 13, 2009 2:27 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm just waiting for the christians find out how they have been taken, now that will be hilarious.
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» RE: The sooner The Rapture happens...
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: NO Rapture for the Dominionists
Posted by: Changling
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Posted by: Nitestallion on Oct 13, 2009 2:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The only ones to mention that word are the brain emulsifiers. And after washing your brain in effluent the bastards put it back in dirty! Yep, folks it is your own dirty mind that thinks any God would so confuse his creatures with something that they couldn’t handle by themselves. Stop filling your brains with yeast shit, Mexyl death amphetamine, datura root and strychnine. And for love of God and humanity STOP listening to those damned preachers who insist of filling your souls with this camel dung about this or that group of people being sons of Satan.
If Jesus was about killing he would not have put that roman soldier’s ear back on and sent him away healed. No, he would have taken his sword away and whacked off that roman’s head! These people in that desert over there in Iran and Afghanistan believe in the same God if not the same Avatar. So stop your company’s autocracies from trying to steal their oil and send our children home!
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» RE: NO mention of any Rapture
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Please people no more dipshittethon, engage brain before reading books.
Posted by: Beadmaster
» In case of rapture . . .
Posted by: LMNOP
» I found the YouTube
Posted by: LMNOP
» My fave, too!
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: Moonray on Oct 13, 2009 3:21 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The spread of home schooling and the Internet in the past 20 years is fueling these trends, which will only get worse. Let your govt. reps know you want action: No organized religious teaching of kids under 18 and no more tax breaks, period. Those developments are distortions of religious freedom that should be stopped immediately.
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» RE: end to tax breaks - stupid argument
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» Constitution doesn't allow tax breaks or prohibit regulation
Posted by: Moonray
» RE: Don't just gripe, demand protection for kids, end to tax breaks
Posted by: EncinoM
» You're grasping at straws to preserve religious tyranny
Posted by: Moonray
» homeschooling isn't just for religious conservatives...
Posted by: undrgrndgirl
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Posted by: ChristianAl on Oct 13, 2009 3:35 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» if you google "end times" you get 243,000,000 hits.
Posted by: Beck
» RE: if you google "end times" you get 243,000,000 hits.
Posted by: ChristianAl
» RE: we continue to live in this present world and continue to build for the future
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: we continue to live in this present world and continue to build for the future
Posted by: ChristianAl
» RE: pastors, evangelist, missionaries, ministries or mega churches
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: pastors, evangelist, missionaries, ministries or mega churches
Posted by: skyguy
» RE: pastors, evangelist, missionaries, ministries or mega churches
Posted by: ChristianAl
» RE: Please take the time to educate Americans on the subject and you will find Christians
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Please take the time to educate Americans on the subject and you will find Christians
Posted by: ChristianAl
» RE: Sorry, but we Evangelicals are not consumed with advancing the end times
Posted by: freshlemon
» RE: Sorry, but we Evangelicals are not consumed with advancing the end times
Posted by: ChristianAl
» RE: Sorry, but we Evangelicals are not consumed with advancing the end times
Posted by: freshlemon
» RE: Sorry, but we Evangelicals are not consumed with advancing the end times
Posted by: ChristianAl
» RE: dialog with Christians looking for areas of common concern
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: dialog with Christians looking for areas of common concern
Posted by: ChristianAl
» RE: dialog with Christians looking for areas of common concern
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: dialog with Christians looking for areas of common concern
Posted by: ChristianAl
» RE: Sorry, but we Evangelicals are not consumed with advancing the end times
Posted by: Beadmaster
» RE: Sorry, but we Evangelicals are not consumed with advancing the end times
Posted by: ChristianAl
» RE: Sorry, but we Evangelicals are not consumed with advancing the end times
Posted by: freshlemon
» RE: Sorry, but we Evangelicals are not consumed with advancing the end times
Posted by: ChristianAl
» RE: In the Baptist Church as a child, I often heard about the evils of blacks, Jews and Catholics.
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: In the Baptist Church as a child, I often heard about the evils of blacks, Jews and Catholics.
Posted by: ChristianAl
» RE: Some background on Frank Schaeffer
Posted by: Jasonix
» RE: Should I send him a recipe
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» "preparing for end times" gets 48,000,000 hits. "telling others about end times", 150 000,000
Posted by: Beck
» RE: "preparing for end times" gets 48,000,000 hits. "telling others about end times", 150 000,000
Posted by: ChristianAl
» RE: how about end times recipes? 36,700,000 English pages for end times recipes
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: how about end times recipes? 36,700,000 English pages for end times recipes
Posted by: ChristianAl
» RE: Sorry, but we Evangelicals are not consumed with advancing the end times
Posted by: ChristianAl
» RE: drugs do not destroy our youth, police states do
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: drugs do not destroy our youth, police states do
Posted by: ChristianAl
» Sorry, but that is a correct characterization
Posted by: hurricane hugo
» RE: Sorry, but that is a correct characterization
Posted by: ChristianAl
» RE: Sorry, but that is a correct characterization
Posted by: Morell
» RE: Sorry, but we Evangelicals are not consumed with advancing the end times
Posted by: ChristianAl
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Posted by: Purple Girl on Oct 13, 2009 4:34 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Who needs a Game Changing Event?
Who would benefit from the destruction of Earth and ALL it's occupants?
Who uses bribery to tempt Man?
Who uses hate and fear to motivate Humans?
The only way to understand this doctrine is to see it from the perspective of Satan worshipping.
God has no need to prove His Almightiness. No need to dick around with a peon like Satan in some 'Great Battle'. In fact He has no need for any 'soldiers' or 'Armies' either. 'Revelations' tells us Christ doesn't even need assistnce from Mortals- he Defeats Satan with JUST the Word of God- Not AK47!
It's only Satan who is so weak that he requires such aid (and comfort)from mortals. It's only Satan Who Hates humanity so much he wishes them exterminated and their realm destroyed.
The reaosn it is so difficult for other Faithfuls and non Faithfuls to comprehend this Doctrine is that we continue to accept their claim they are practicing a form of Christianity. When in fact they are Satanist who have used Christianity (et al) to conceal their true reverence for the Jealous, hateful Inferior one.The Rapture is Bribery and these folks have their greedy lil hands out willing to do anything to earn that 'reward', even disregard Every 'Golden Rule'.
If God must do Battle to maintain His Almightiness- then He is not considered the One and Only One Lord God- He has a rival of equal strength. A direct contradiction to monotheism.
If you are inclined to kill 'Infidels' then 'Thou shall not Kill' is a Suggestion, not a Commandment.
Conquest is the militarized form of thievery, seizing lands and resources.Because you Covet what they possess. 'Thou Shall not Steal' means nothing .
When you are indoctrinating Children in ideas contrary to what their parents think- You are encouraging them to not 'Honor their Mother & Father'.
Claiming others are Sinners and bound for Hell- is superceding the Judgement of God. Thus Bearing False Witness, since they have no input or influence over the decision.Who would be so bold and arrogant to assume such powers over the eternal soul?
And if you are going Door to door every sunday spreading the word of "God" you are working- not resting nor contemplating your own relationship with the Almighty- Your are acting as a Recruiter, not a nurturing your personal relationship with the Creator.
If God is truely the Almighty, He doesn't need Recruiters- He can bring people to him in 'Mysterious Ways'- Not door to door Salesmen.
These folks prove over and over they are Duelists. Who feel the Strength of Evil is as strong as Good- so some great fight must be waged to determine who will Reign supreme. And obviously they beleive there is a good Chance God will Lose. Lets not forget the 'AntiChrist ' must be Resurrected BEFORE Christ- So they are praying for Satans 2nd coming First and foremost, not Christ's. Because if Satan doesn't return, neither will Christ and then no Rapture would be required.
These people are Satan worshippers and minions. Theologically Speaking it's the only Doctrine which explains their morbid, Hell bent facination with 'End of Times'. What Timesa re they hoping to End? Those of Religous Beliefs in a merciful Divinity?
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» RE: Nice breakdown.
Posted by: Cybershaman
» Thou shalt not covet...
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Biblically Speaking, Who has an 'Inferiority Complex'?
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Biblically Speaking, Who has an 'Inferiority Complex'?
Posted by: Dboy
» By their fruits shall ye know them
Posted by: westomoon
» RE: By their fruits shall ye know them
Posted by: johnmont
» RE: Biblically Speaking, Who has an 'Inferiority Complex'?
Posted by: Changling
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Posted by: Walt3 on Oct 13, 2009 4:36 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Those of us who do not follow a religious path are well served by reading what those who do, and remain decent human beings, have to say. I subscribe to a great deal of what Buddha had to say. Sam Harris while avowadly atheist, recognizes that Eastern thought manages to provide a path of self realization without the hate.
The real point to all of this is that Jewish mythology has spawned the most hateful belief systems on the planet, fundamentalist Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Is it any wonder that a Zionist state becomes hateful too?
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» RE: Jewish mythology has spawned the most hateful belief systems on the planet
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Walt
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: zodiac12 on Oct 13, 2009 4:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Tom Degan on Oct 13, 2009 4:46 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have not read this article yet - but I promise you that I will later on this morning (I am in the process of moving) But I think I can answer the question that is posed in the title of what I ma sure is a very fine piece:
They're out of their freaking minds.
Have a lovely day, folks!
Tom Degan
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» RE: Great title!
Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: Great title!
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: pakkarim on Oct 13, 2009 5:27 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Please advise
Posted by: Karlh
» How will JC look?
Posted by: zipper696
» Too faggy
Posted by: Karlh
» RE: Too faggy
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Too faggy
Posted by: popeurbanxxiii
» RE: Please advise
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» he'll shave his legs and be a she
Posted by: hurricane hugo
» Since we're made in God's image, won't he/she have a...
Posted by: Lese Majeste
» even better!
Posted by: hurricane hugo
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Posted by: drosera on Oct 13, 2009 6:05 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Doesn't the Christian Bible, especially the Old Testament (which Islam also reveres) contain text that also endorses death to unbelievers? Just as in Islam, the words are there and cannot be denied (though they are). The author of this article and his fellow liberal Christians remind me of Muslims trying to rewrite an eighth century book that contains much ugliness (along with beauty). They skip over the parts they don't want to read, dwelling on the good parts. Better to see that book for what it is--a human creation embedded in a culture exemplifying certain values, some of which are repellant to us now.
The Apocalypse folks just emphasize different words of the Bible, the words most of us prefer to ignore. So, all of us, both the "bad" Christians and the "good," should stop using this antiquated collection of stories and history as a source of our ethics. We have moved way beyond it.
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» RE: believers in other religions do not commit suicide bombings
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: I would add Tamils too for the start of the modern
Posted by: Changling
» RE: You pick and choose also grasshopper
Posted by: solrev
» RE: The moral of the Noah story
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Isn't some of the hate implicit or explicit in the Bible?
Posted by: rinthy
» RE: Isn't some of the hate implicit or explicit in the Bible?
Posted by: rinthy
» The bible seen in the context of its time(s)
Posted by: drosera
» RE: Isn't some of the hate implicit or explicit in the Bible?
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: leafsong1 on Oct 13, 2009 6:36 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: convince us that the Jesus freaks are in charge
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» I did not rate this comment
Posted by: QQOblivion
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Posted by: zipper696 on Oct 13, 2009 7:41 AM
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Posted by: Spiritgirl on Oct 13, 2009 6:53 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: snake oil salesmen
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» The world will end
Posted by: Karlh
» RE: The rapture, really.? Theocracy for all, freedom for some
Posted by: Changling
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Posted by: floridahank on Oct 13, 2009 7:12 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
read the entire Bible and yet they keep
choosing bits and pieces of Scripture out of
context to make their pointless point.
If you believe in a Creator God, it doesn't make any difference if you "want" "hope" or
"pray" that the rapture happens soon -- you
won't change God's plan that was created whenever He created it. The "rapture" may
not occur for another 1,000 years, so
don't get yourself worked up over it.
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» RE: verybody likes to speculate without proper knowledge
Posted by: ChristianAl
» RE: verybody likes to speculate without proper knowledge
Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: choosing Scripture for a 1,000 years
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: choosing Scripture for a 1,000 years
Posted by: rinthy
» The Truth Will Set You Free - Not The Lies of Man Made Religion
Posted by: tony_opmoc
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Posted by: tedrowe on Oct 13, 2009 7:20 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Somebody rated this comment a five? Are you serious?
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» RE: Somebody rated this comment a five? Are you serious?
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» RE: Somebody rated this comment a five? Are you serious?
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: eligious extremism is rooted in childhood traumas
Posted by: Blacktiger
» RE: eligious extremism is rooted in childhood traumas
Posted by: tedrowe
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Posted by: peterjkraus on Oct 13, 2009 7:35 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
At age 18, I went to school in Germany: a public (high) school with a Christian cross prominently displayed in classrooms, a compulsory class teaching religion and testing comprehension, just like math and grading it, just like math.
Crosses in restaurants and at roadsides, above doorways and dangling from rear view mirrors. Churchbells banging away four times an hour, more often on Sunday. Laws prohibiting work on Sundays and Christian holidays. Government-run radio programs that began with five minutes of prayer and a sermon before segueing into the morning news.
Church taxes -- ten percent of income tax -- deducted from the monthly paycheck. Which meant having to claim membership in one of the "recognized" churches when filling out job applications.
This was back in the Sixties and Seventies. In the meantime, Europeans have grown so sick of this shit, they have left the official church in droves. But they still have their crosses, their churchbells, their population of crazies, just like here, that can't get enough of the Christian Life (and hates Muslims and other furriners, wants more church involvement in civic affairs and thinks morality means reliving the 18th century) and two church groups that wield much more power than any American radical right.
If only our fundamentalist superstition mongers knew how screwed up folks in Europe are by all this top-down religious shit. But they don't -- I guess they don't get around much.
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» RE: they still have their crosses, their churchbells, their population of crazies, just like here
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Where does this "European anti-religion" crap come from?
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Where does this "European anti-religion" crap come from?
Posted by: masthead
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Posted by: zipper696 on Oct 13, 2009 7:44 AM
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When in fact it is "REVELATION"
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» RE: When in fact it is "REVELATION"
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
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Posted by: melpol on Oct 13, 2009 7:53 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: US Citizen on Oct 13, 2009 8:00 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Conservative Republicans - too insane for public office?
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: QQOblivion on Oct 13, 2009 8:04 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It will instead be just a month or two later, in early 2013, right after the new Republican US presidential administration -- who will be made up of 'End Times' followers -- starts a full-scale nuclear war with the Russians.
Look at the bright side. This mass genocide of the entire planet's population -- Christian and non-Christian alike -- will put us all out of our misery!
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» RE: Self-Fulfilling Prophecy
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Self-Fulfilling Prophecy--but which one?
Posted by: Changling
» President Sarah Palin says...
Posted by: Lese Majeste
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Posted by: vyckie on Oct 13, 2009 8:32 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I also published a right-wing, "pro-life, pro-family" newspaper which carried Bev LaHaye's "Concerned Women for America" and Don Wildmon's "American Family Association" dominionist agenda to my Christian audience in Nebraska.
I used to quote Frank Schaeffer's father ~ "Atheists have both feet firmly planted in mid-air" ~ wow ~ I thought that was so clever! Now that I've seen the destruction this fundamentalist, "us" against "the world" bunker mentality wreaks upon the KIDS (my own daughter tried to kill herself) ~ I had to get out. And suddenly, the Francis Schaeffer quote is not quite so funny now that I'm living it. No more certainty. No more absolutes.
I'm telling my story of escape from extreme Christian fundamentalism here: No Longer Quivering
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» RE: my daughter was anorexic
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» "No more certainty. No more absolutes."
Posted by: Beck
» RE: Welcome back!
Posted by: justAnEgg
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Posted by: NWSuburbanite on Oct 13, 2009 8:57 AM
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As a devote believer in God and his Son, I'm curious how they justify this belief and support for a state that looks down upon anyone not Jewish?
Where in the Gospels, did Jesus say, "Oh, and by the way, do whatever you have to do to ensure that I return, even if it means violating the only commandement I have given you. You know, the love your neighbor as yourself one."
These people actually think that by sending their money to Israel and lobbying their representatives in Congress to continue sending the $10 billion a year in tax dollars to Israel, that this will help Jesus return?
Jesus doesn't need their help! What naive chutzpah!
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» RE: Are they really Christians?
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Are they really Christians?
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: Bushmaster on Oct 13, 2009 9:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I listen to fundamentalist radio to see if I jumped the boat for the wrong reasons. I hear the same thing over and over again. These people do not know how to make a choice without finding permission in the 'book' somewhere. The sermons are constantly about being sure you are living 'right' by the 'book'.
I have heard ministers laugh at the idea that God would take care of this enemies. Which would include me in his way of thinking.
I ruined my family and caused my wife to divorce me by following and requiring my family to follow, a strict fundamentalist faith.
The most pernicious doctrine of all is that of 'original sin' which causes those who adhere to it to simply give up their minds and declare themselves to be intellectual invalids incapable of making the right choice without finding the 'right words' in the 'book' to keep them from being in danger of making the wrong decision.
Another thing that disturbs me about the Christian fundamentalist cult is that the world , external reality, begins in our thoughts. The world in their thoughts is not one I want to live in.
I'm glad to see the author writing the words he has written.
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» RE: Amen
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: Rusty Shackleford on Oct 13, 2009 10:05 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't approve of so-called "moderate" Christians, who refuse to acknowledge that they are picking and choosing what doctrines to follow and which to ignore. Sorry, that's like saying that god himself was a moderate, or that he "didn't really mean that bit about not eating shellfish."
Gentle Jesus tender and mild wasn't as much of a pacifist as people think.
He routinely refers to people as doomed to hell for not obeying certain rules he lays out. Old testament punishments tended to revolve around the here and now, mainly with death as a finality, but Jesus was one of the first to advocate the widespread idea of ETERNAL punishment. That doesn't sound very "tender" to me. He even goes so far as to kill an innocent fig tree because it didn't give him fruit, even though it was out of season.
I am an atheist, and I view religion (be it extreme or moderate) as ultimately destructive, because it takes away from people the idea that we are capable of governing ourselves and coming up with our own code of morals.
To me, religion makes sheep out of us all, whether you follow the Old Testament to the letter, or whether you state that you're just living a good life according to Jesus.
The worst bit about religion, to me, is that there's no evidence to even suggest that Jesus actually existed...
Allegorical literature was quite common during the time the gospels were written.
There's absolutely no record of a human Jesus by any contemporary secular writers.
AND, there's pretty much ZERO originality in the Jesus story itself. Every last detail has been taken from older myths and legends of previous son-of-god characters who were born on December 25th, adorned by wise men, were tempted by evil, performed miracles, advocated baptism by water, had a sacrificial meal of bread and wine representing the demigod's body and blood, were crucified, rose from the dead three days later, promised to come again, etc etc etc. NONE of that is original material.
There's a big difference between allowing people to commune with nature and with a feeling of togetherness (call it spirituality), and the rigid, dogmatic ideas of organized religion.
It's one thing for people to want to seek "god," whatever that may be to people, but it's something entirely different to hold world views that contradict basic logic and scientific research, and then demand that one's own specific world views (based on flawed logic, intolerance, etc) be implemented into law.
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» I don't agree that Jesus preached hell. And there are records of Jesus and his crucifixion by
Posted by: Beck
» RE: I don't agree that Jesus preached hell. And there are records of Jesus and his crucifixion by
Posted by: Rusty Shackleford
» The real history is in ruins
Posted by: Blacktiger
» RE: The real history is in ruins for a purpose
Posted by: Changling
» RE: I don't agree that Jesus preached hell. And there are records of Jesus and his crucifixion by
Posted by: ClassAct
» RE: I don't agree that Jesus preached hell. And there are records of Jesus and his crucifixion by
Posted by: Rusty Shackleford
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Posted by: willymack on Oct 13, 2009 10:07 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We could afford to be patient and with and tolerant toward religious loonies, because, although loud, they were relatively harmless, and even a bit amusing.
Not any more! Oh, no; it seems they've rounded up people in Congress and the Senate just as stupid, ignorant, and nasty as they are, and are becoming a major pain in the ass, diverting attention away from far more pressing issues than they can dream up in the "Left Behind" series of trash masquerading as novels.
In a sane world, the majority of citizens would politely listen to the rants and shrieks of religion-besotted morons, then move on to what makes SENSE, but we're not living in a sane world any more. We seem to have an "other side of the story" mentality, where both "sides" have equal validity, and are rationalized to both be true.
This nonsense reasoning could well prove fatal to everything we hold dear, if allowed to continue on to its inevitable conclusion.
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» RE: Patience, my ass! STOP THEM NOW!
Posted by: johnbradleycopeland
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Posted by: drabikmr on Oct 13, 2009 10:12 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My experience of the real God is one that is personal and loves each human being dearly, but still demands of humans justice tempered with mercy. Yet this not permissiveness. If one wills to chose NOT to love back (by not loving others as Jesus, the God-Man taught us) then one will not be able to live with God or the family of God, which is the Church, at all. For one simple reason: one will not be able to endure it.
Hell is there as a response to that act of the human will. It is also, at the same time, a personal choice not to love and the judgment of God.
To offer people the extreme that all will ultimately be saved is to reduce humans, in the end, to nothing more than determined (read here 'fated') creatures than persons with the Will to choose to love or not to love.
And, that, paraphrasing the Bard is the ultimate question God asks each of man and woman through throughout their lives and through the ages. The answer given determines where each person will spend eternity.
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» Hell's residents
Posted by: westomoon
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Posted by: raginghormones on Oct 13, 2009 10:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If Jesus takes you up into heaven, and I'm left behind, can I have your car?
It would be nice to leave the keys to your house too.
And since you're certain that very soon you'll be sitting by the side of the Saviour, are you really going to need that money in your bank account or CD? I mean, you ain't gonna need any Greenbacks once you're in heaven--right?
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» I'd like the Impressionist art, and the violins. Also, a Lotus Elise, although probably THOSE
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: daytripper on Oct 13, 2009 10:42 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Derestanne on Oct 13, 2009 11:27 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"To do good is noble. To tell others how to do good is nobler still - and a lot less trouble"!
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Posted by: Lese Majeste on Oct 13, 2009 1:10 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That's why they're so jacked up over the 'Wars for Wall Street and Israel,' they hope those conflicts lead to nuclear Armageddon.
BTW, the word Rapture does NOT appear in the KJV Bible. It was made up by another Christian whack job around 120 years ago to scare the hell out of people and it works just dandy.
Somehow, praying and hoping for JC to return on a mushroom cloud isn't what he tried to teach when he gave his beautiful "Sermon on the Mount," but feeding the hungry, tending to the sick and sheltering the homeless isn't sexy enough for today's well-heeled Bible thumper.
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» RE: the Rapture
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Oct 13, 2009 2:48 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So to any young Jewish guys out there, here's a warning! If you see that cute Gentile honey winking at you across the room, beware of temptation! She's obviously an agent of the Devil trying to prevent fulfillment of Prophecy! Dont' fall for it! Keep your pants zipped (and your virginity intact!) to do your part in bringing about God's Kingdom on Earth!!!
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Posted by: ClassAct on Oct 13, 2009 3:19 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Modern "rapture" zaniness, it seems to me, has been the outgrowth of the media avalanche first unleashed by "Rosemary's Baby." What if in our modern world that the devil turned out to be real? The conceit of the movie restored the monster, Satan in this case, to the movies after having been banished to B-movies since the 1940s. It unleased a seemingly endless series of "witches are real" media products that are still with us in the form of "vampires are real," spawning along the way "The Exorcist" series and "The Omen" series. The "prophecy is real" version of Christianism arose out of that ... and the opportunism of sociopathic preachers to prey upon credulous believers.
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» RE: Believing fiction
Posted by: Morell
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Posted by: leafsong1 on Oct 13, 2009 3:50 PM
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Posted by: pakkarim on Oct 13, 2009 3:50 PM
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His return will be to his native land, the Middle East, not New York, London, Paris or even Singapore!
So for those who believe in the 'Rapture', they need to go to the Middle East and await his 2nd coming there! And they must hurry... Otherwise they will be left behind!
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Posted by: BobRoberts on Oct 13, 2009 3:53 PM
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Posted by: DaBear on Oct 13, 2009 4:08 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When I finally settled into myself and accepted my atheism, I realized why previously I had been reticent to settle-in and embrace reality... when you come out of a cult that so thoroughly mind-fucks you to the point of a negative and pernicious self-esteem deficit, it's a little tough to shed the pain-body the cult created. You shed the guts only to leave the skin because you're fuckin' scared to. I think Frank'll find that out too... though it'll take a few more years.
I can't agree with his kid gloves when it comes to the LaHaye's and that ilk. I know 'em better than Frank, from the damaged tip of their swords dripping with my own blood. That tends to lend a little needed realism when framing the Cult. These people are lethal and they are dangerous. You are not safe just because you think they're "innocuous" and "blind." Just you wait, Frank, Jerry and Tim will turn on you in a heartbeat once the book begins to rake in the dough. They don't like apostates and they won't give you nearly any of the quarter you are giving them.
A fool turns his back to an armed assailant.
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Posted by: Overburdened Planet on Oct 13, 2009 4:25 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I mean I've read or heard that after death, heaven or hell immediately follows unless purgatory also exists, but even Catholics say not every follower ends up in purgatory so what happens to the rest of the dead while waiting for Judgment Day? Where are they exactly?
I also wonder about the righteous and their perception of charity as described in Matthew 25:
44—"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45—"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46—"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
————
How can conservatives ever believe they are "righteous" when they don't live by Jesus' examples?
Why wouldn't they believe they will "...go away to eternal punishment..." when at every turn they deny that ..."whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me"(?)
You could start with health care reform and the public option and we'll go from there...
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Posted by: tony_opmoc on Oct 13, 2009 4:35 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Unfortunately the entire movie is unsuitable for a naive religious audience, but the religious bit is quite exceptional.
Other parts of the movie, and its later sequels are very interesting, but I do not necessarily agree with much of the content, and the religious loonies would be completely shocked.
I suggest skipping the first 9 minutes, and also do not watch part two unless you are of a strong mental disposition.
Zeitgeist, The Movie
Tony
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» RE: The Religious Section of Zeitgeist The Movie Should Be Compulsorary in Religious Education
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: The Religious Section of Zeitgeist The Movie Should Be Compulsorary in Religious Education
Posted by: tony_opmoc
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Posted by: L5 on Oct 13, 2009 5:00 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Many of us saw religion as harmless nonsense. Beliefs might lack all supporting evidence but,
we thought, if people needed a crutch for consolation, where's the harm?
September 11th changed all that."
"One of the things that is wrong with religion is that it teaches us to be satisfied with answers which are not really answers at all."
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Posted by: dayahka on Oct 13, 2009 6:48 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You criticize freaks in the "second coming" cults, yet you yourself believe in this nonsense. Yours is a "within the family" critique. It's not just the believers in the rapture, but the whole freaking religion who are filled with hate, unreason, and blood lust. Please, spare us any more of this stuff.
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Posted by: lalala on Oct 13, 2009 9:10 PM
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Posted by: Lese Majeste on Oct 14, 2009 3:34 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So is there really a need for these obese, pampered TV preachers who ride around in chauffered limos, fly in private jets and live in mansions while preaching in 20 million dollar cathedrals?
If JC came back to Earth today and started preaching his gospel of love and understanding, those televangelists would be the ones howling for his blood.
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Posted by: athurlow on Oct 14, 2009 6:25 AM
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» Jehovah's Witnesses
Posted by: westomoon
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Posted by: jmmartin on Oct 14, 2009 6:28 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The material he covers here has been done to death. It was probably done best by a deist named Christoper Hedges, e.g. his book and his stuff at Truthdig. What these writers are saying is simply that all religious nuts are loony and all evangelical dominionist religious nuts are very, very loony.
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Posted by: DreamFast on Oct 17, 2009 9:07 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And I keep telling her "Mom, wishing and praying for the end of the world is so incredibly selfish.
Why don't you just kill yourself and leave the rest of us alone".
She doesn't like hearing that for some reason.
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Posted by: aristopus on Oct 17, 2009 9:56 AM
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Google "endmeme" for more info.
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Posted by: paganpat on Oct 17, 2009 4:20 PM
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Posted by: Mugsy12 on Oct 21, 2009 2:40 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Malamute on Oct 13, 2009 1:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As an Atheist I do not like this title, Atheism is nothing more than not believing something, why would that be disliked? I no longer believe in Santa or an egg-laying Easter Bunny, am I to dislike them?
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» He's okay with lack of belief. It's the self-described "movement" with its billboards and
Posted by: Beck
» RE: He's okay with lack of belief. It's the self-described "movement" with its billboards and
Posted by: Malamute
» It's against internet rules to
Posted by: LightningJoe
» Oh, Malamute!
Posted by: zipper696
» The Bunny Thanks You For Saying That!
Posted by: LightningJoe
» RE: Who are these people who don't like a lack of belief?
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Who are these people who don't like a lack of belief?
Posted by: Haji54
» RE: Who are these people who don't like a lack of belief?
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Who are these people who don't like a lack of belief?
Posted by: LightningJoe
» Highly Recommended: The "Conversations With God" Series
Posted by: SkeeterVT1
» RE: Who are these people who don't like a lack of belief?
Posted by: Eric.Arthur.Blair
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Posted by: cordas on Oct 13, 2009 1:56 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can't wait to be one of those damned atheists left behind!
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» peace of mind comes from within
Posted by: dogeatdog
» RE: how can i help to save our planet?
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» Keep your religion out of the public sphere
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: Keep your religion out of the public sphere
Posted by: Jbuuty
» RE: Keep religion personal
Posted by: Changling
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Posted by: Blacktiger on Oct 13, 2009 2:27 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm just waiting for the christians find out how they have been taken, now that will be hilarious.
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» RE: The sooner The Rapture happens...
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: NO Rapture for the Dominionists
Posted by: Changling
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Posted by: Nitestallion on Oct 13, 2009 2:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The only ones to mention that word are the brain emulsifiers. And after washing your brain in effluent the bastards put it back in dirty! Yep, folks it is your own dirty mind that thinks any God would so confuse his creatures with something that they couldn’t handle by themselves. Stop filling your brains with yeast shit, Mexyl death amphetamine, datura root and strychnine. And for love of God and humanity STOP listening to those damned preachers who insist of filling your souls with this camel dung about this or that group of people being sons of Satan.
If Jesus was about killing he would not have put that roman soldier’s ear back on and sent him away healed. No, he would have taken his sword away and whacked off that roman’s head! These people in that desert over there in Iran and Afghanistan believe in the same God if not the same Avatar. So stop your company’s autocracies from trying to steal their oil and send our children home!
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» RE: NO mention of any Rapture
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Please people no more dipshittethon, engage brain before reading books.
Posted by: Beadmaster
» In case of rapture . . .
Posted by: LMNOP
» I found the YouTube
Posted by: LMNOP
» My fave, too!
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: Moonray on Oct 13, 2009 3:21 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The spread of home schooling and the Internet in the past 20 years is fueling these trends, which will only get worse. Let your govt. reps know you want action: No organized religious teaching of kids under 18 and no more tax breaks, period. Those developments are distortions of religious freedom that should be stopped immediately.
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» RE: end to tax breaks - stupid argument
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» Constitution doesn't allow tax breaks or prohibit regulation
Posted by: Moonray
» RE: Don't just gripe, demand protection for kids, end to tax breaks
Posted by: EncinoM
» You're grasping at straws to preserve religious tyranny
Posted by: Moonray
» homeschooling isn't just for religious conservatives...
Posted by: undrgrndgirl
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Posted by: ChristianAl on Oct 13, 2009 3:35 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» if you google "end times" you get 243,000,000 hits.
Posted by: Beck
» RE: if you google "end times" you get 243,000,000 hits.
Posted by: ChristianAl
» RE: we continue to live in this present world and continue to build for the future
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: we continue to live in this present world and continue to build for the future
Posted by: ChristianAl
» RE: pastors, evangelist, missionaries, ministries or mega churches
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: pastors, evangelist, missionaries, ministries or mega churches
Posted by: skyguy
» RE: pastors, evangelist, missionaries, ministries or mega churches
Posted by: ChristianAl
» RE: Please take the time to educate Americans on the subject and you will find Christians
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» RE: Please take the time to educate Americans on the subject and you will find Christians
Posted by: ChristianAl
» RE: Sorry, but we Evangelicals are not consumed with advancing the end times
Posted by: freshlemon
» RE: Sorry, but we Evangelicals are not consumed with advancing the end times
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» RE: Sorry, but we Evangelicals are not consumed with advancing the end times
Posted by: freshlemon
» RE: Sorry, but we Evangelicals are not consumed with advancing the end times
Posted by: ChristianAl
» RE: dialog with Christians looking for areas of common concern
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» RE: dialog with Christians looking for areas of common concern
Posted by: ChristianAl
» RE: dialog with Christians looking for areas of common concern
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: dialog with Christians looking for areas of common concern
Posted by: ChristianAl
» RE: Sorry, but we Evangelicals are not consumed with advancing the end times
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» RE: Sorry, but we Evangelicals are not consumed with advancing the end times
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» RE: Sorry, but we Evangelicals are not consumed with advancing the end times
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» RE: Sorry, but we Evangelicals are not consumed with advancing the end times
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» RE: In the Baptist Church as a child, I often heard about the evils of blacks, Jews and Catholics.
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» RE: In the Baptist Church as a child, I often heard about the evils of blacks, Jews and Catholics.
Posted by: ChristianAl
» RE: Some background on Frank Schaeffer
Posted by: Jasonix
» RE: Should I send him a recipe
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» "preparing for end times" gets 48,000,000 hits. "telling others about end times", 150 000,000
Posted by: Beck
» RE: "preparing for end times" gets 48,000,000 hits. "telling others about end times", 150 000,000
Posted by: ChristianAl
» RE: how about end times recipes? 36,700,000 English pages for end times recipes
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: how about end times recipes? 36,700,000 English pages for end times recipes
Posted by: ChristianAl
» RE: Sorry, but we Evangelicals are not consumed with advancing the end times
Posted by: ChristianAl
» RE: drugs do not destroy our youth, police states do
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: drugs do not destroy our youth, police states do
Posted by: ChristianAl
» Sorry, but that is a correct characterization
Posted by: hurricane hugo
» RE: Sorry, but that is a correct characterization
Posted by: ChristianAl
» RE: Sorry, but that is a correct characterization
Posted by: Morell
» RE: Sorry, but we Evangelicals are not consumed with advancing the end times
Posted by: ChristianAl
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Posted by: Purple Girl on Oct 13, 2009 4:34 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Who needs a Game Changing Event?
Who would benefit from the destruction of Earth and ALL it's occupants?
Who uses bribery to tempt Man?
Who uses hate and fear to motivate Humans?
The only way to understand this doctrine is to see it from the perspective of Satan worshipping.
God has no need to prove His Almightiness. No need to dick around with a peon like Satan in some 'Great Battle'. In fact He has no need for any 'soldiers' or 'Armies' either. 'Revelations' tells us Christ doesn't even need assistnce from Mortals- he Defeats Satan with JUST the Word of God- Not AK47!
It's only Satan who is so weak that he requires such aid (and comfort)from mortals. It's only Satan Who Hates humanity so much he wishes them exterminated and their realm destroyed.
The reaosn it is so difficult for other Faithfuls and non Faithfuls to comprehend this Doctrine is that we continue to accept their claim they are practicing a form of Christianity. When in fact they are Satanist who have used Christianity (et al) to conceal their true reverence for the Jealous, hateful Inferior one.The Rapture is Bribery and these folks have their greedy lil hands out willing to do anything to earn that 'reward', even disregard Every 'Golden Rule'.
If God must do Battle to maintain His Almightiness- then He is not considered the One and Only One Lord God- He has a rival of equal strength. A direct contradiction to monotheism.
If you are inclined to kill 'Infidels' then 'Thou shall not Kill' is a Suggestion, not a Commandment.
Conquest is the militarized form of thievery, seizing lands and resources.Because you Covet what they possess. 'Thou Shall not Steal' means nothing .
When you are indoctrinating Children in ideas contrary to what their parents think- You are encouraging them to not 'Honor their Mother & Father'.
Claiming others are Sinners and bound for Hell- is superceding the Judgement of God. Thus Bearing False Witness, since they have no input or influence over the decision.Who would be so bold and arrogant to assume such powers over the eternal soul?
And if you are going Door to door every sunday spreading the word of "God" you are working- not resting nor contemplating your own relationship with the Almighty- Your are acting as a Recruiter, not a nurturing your personal relationship with the Creator.
If God is truely the Almighty, He doesn't need Recruiters- He can bring people to him in 'Mysterious Ways'- Not door to door Salesmen.
These folks prove over and over they are Duelists. Who feel the Strength of Evil is as strong as Good- so some great fight must be waged to determine who will Reign supreme. And obviously they beleive there is a good Chance God will Lose. Lets not forget the 'AntiChrist ' must be Resurrected BEFORE Christ- So they are praying for Satans 2nd coming First and foremost, not Christ's. Because if Satan doesn't return, neither will Christ and then no Rapture would be required.
These people are Satan worshippers and minions. Theologically Speaking it's the only Doctrine which explains their morbid, Hell bent facination with 'End of Times'. What Timesa re they hoping to End? Those of Religous Beliefs in a merciful Divinity?
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» RE: Nice breakdown.
Posted by: Cybershaman
» Thou shalt not covet...
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Biblically Speaking, Who has an 'Inferiority Complex'?
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Biblically Speaking, Who has an 'Inferiority Complex'?
Posted by: Dboy
» By their fruits shall ye know them
Posted by: westomoon
» RE: By their fruits shall ye know them
Posted by: johnmont
» RE: Biblically Speaking, Who has an 'Inferiority Complex'?
Posted by: Changling
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Posted by: Walt3 on Oct 13, 2009 4:36 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Those of us who do not follow a religious path are well served by reading what those who do, and remain decent human beings, have to say. I subscribe to a great deal of what Buddha had to say. Sam Harris while avowadly atheist, recognizes that Eastern thought manages to provide a path of self realization without the hate.
The real point to all of this is that Jewish mythology has spawned the most hateful belief systems on the planet, fundamentalist Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Is it any wonder that a Zionist state becomes hateful too?
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» RE: Jewish mythology has spawned the most hateful belief systems on the planet
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Walt
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: zodiac12 on Oct 13, 2009 4:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Tom Degan on Oct 13, 2009 4:46 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have not read this article yet - but I promise you that I will later on this morning (I am in the process of moving) But I think I can answer the question that is posed in the title of what I ma sure is a very fine piece:
They're out of their freaking minds.
Have a lovely day, folks!
Tom Degan
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» RE: Great title!
Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: Great title!
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: pakkarim on Oct 13, 2009 5:27 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Please advise
Posted by: Karlh
» How will JC look?
Posted by: zipper696
» Too faggy
Posted by: Karlh
» RE: Too faggy
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Too faggy
Posted by: popeurbanxxiii
» RE: Please advise
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» he'll shave his legs and be a she
Posted by: hurricane hugo
» Since we're made in God's image, won't he/she have a...
Posted by: Lese Majeste
» even better!
Posted by: hurricane hugo
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Posted by: drosera on Oct 13, 2009 6:05 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Doesn't the Christian Bible, especially the Old Testament (which Islam also reveres) contain text that also endorses death to unbelievers? Just as in Islam, the words are there and cannot be denied (though they are). The author of this article and his fellow liberal Christians remind me of Muslims trying to rewrite an eighth century book that contains much ugliness (along with beauty). They skip over the parts they don't want to read, dwelling on the good parts. Better to see that book for what it is--a human creation embedded in a culture exemplifying certain values, some of which are repellant to us now.
The Apocalypse folks just emphasize different words of the Bible, the words most of us prefer to ignore. So, all of us, both the "bad" Christians and the "good," should stop using this antiquated collection of stories and history as a source of our ethics. We have moved way beyond it.
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» RE: believers in other religions do not commit suicide bombings
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: I would add Tamils too for the start of the modern
Posted by: Changling
» RE: You pick and choose also grasshopper
Posted by: solrev
» RE: The moral of the Noah story
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Isn't some of the hate implicit or explicit in the Bible?
Posted by: rinthy
» RE: Isn't some of the hate implicit or explicit in the Bible?
Posted by: rinthy
» The bible seen in the context of its time(s)
Posted by: drosera
» RE: Isn't some of the hate implicit or explicit in the Bible?
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: leafsong1 on Oct 13, 2009 6:36 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: convince us that the Jesus freaks are in charge
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» I did not rate this comment
Posted by: QQOblivion
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Posted by: zipper696 on Oct 13, 2009 7:41 AM
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Posted by: Spiritgirl on Oct 13, 2009 6:53 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: snake oil salesmen
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» The world will end
Posted by: Karlh
» RE: The rapture, really.? Theocracy for all, freedom for some
Posted by: Changling
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Posted by: floridahank on Oct 13, 2009 7:12 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
read the entire Bible and yet they keep
choosing bits and pieces of Scripture out of
context to make their pointless point.
If you believe in a Creator God, it doesn't make any difference if you "want" "hope" or
"pray" that the rapture happens soon -- you
won't change God's plan that was created whenever He created it. The "rapture" may
not occur for another 1,000 years, so
don't get yourself worked up over it.
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» RE: verybody likes to speculate without proper knowledge
Posted by: ChristianAl
» RE: verybody likes to speculate without proper knowledge
Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: choosing Scripture for a 1,000 years
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: choosing Scripture for a 1,000 years
Posted by: rinthy
» The Truth Will Set You Free - Not The Lies of Man Made Religion
Posted by: tony_opmoc
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Posted by: tedrowe on Oct 13, 2009 7:20 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Somebody rated this comment a five? Are you serious?
Posted by: Jasonix
» RE: Somebody rated this comment a five? Are you serious?
Posted by: tony_opmoc
» RE: Somebody rated this comment a five? Are you serious?
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: eligious extremism is rooted in childhood traumas
Posted by: Blacktiger
» RE: eligious extremism is rooted in childhood traumas
Posted by: tedrowe
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Posted by: peterjkraus on Oct 13, 2009 7:35 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
At age 18, I went to school in Germany: a public (high) school with a Christian cross prominently displayed in classrooms, a compulsory class teaching religion and testing comprehension, just like math and grading it, just like math.
Crosses in restaurants and at roadsides, above doorways and dangling from rear view mirrors. Churchbells banging away four times an hour, more often on Sunday. Laws prohibiting work on Sundays and Christian holidays. Government-run radio programs that began with five minutes of prayer and a sermon before segueing into the morning news.
Church taxes -- ten percent of income tax -- deducted from the monthly paycheck. Which meant having to claim membership in one of the "recognized" churches when filling out job applications.
This was back in the Sixties and Seventies. In the meantime, Europeans have grown so sick of this shit, they have left the official church in droves. But they still have their crosses, their churchbells, their population of crazies, just like here, that can't get enough of the Christian Life (and hates Muslims and other furriners, wants more church involvement in civic affairs and thinks morality means reliving the 18th century) and two church groups that wield much more power than any American radical right.
If only our fundamentalist superstition mongers knew how screwed up folks in Europe are by all this top-down religious shit. But they don't -- I guess they don't get around much.
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» RE: they still have their crosses, their churchbells, their population of crazies, just like here
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Where does this "European anti-religion" crap come from?
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Where does this "European anti-religion" crap come from?
Posted by: masthead
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Posted by: zipper696 on Oct 13, 2009 7:44 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When in fact it is "REVELATION"
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» RE: When in fact it is "REVELATION"
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
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Posted by: melpol on Oct 13, 2009 7:53 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: US Citizen on Oct 13, 2009 8:00 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Conservative Republicans - too insane for public office?
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: QQOblivion on Oct 13, 2009 8:04 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It will instead be just a month or two later, in early 2013, right after the new Republican US presidential administration -- who will be made up of 'End Times' followers -- starts a full-scale nuclear war with the Russians.
Look at the bright side. This mass genocide of the entire planet's population -- Christian and non-Christian alike -- will put us all out of our misery!
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» RE: Self-Fulfilling Prophecy
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Self-Fulfilling Prophecy--but which one?
Posted by: Changling
» President Sarah Palin says...
Posted by: Lese Majeste
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Posted by: vyckie on Oct 13, 2009 8:32 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I also published a right-wing, "pro-life, pro-family" newspaper which carried Bev LaHaye's "Concerned Women for America" and Don Wildmon's "American Family Association" dominionist agenda to my Christian audience in Nebraska.
I used to quote Frank Schaeffer's father ~ "Atheists have both feet firmly planted in mid-air" ~ wow ~ I thought that was so clever! Now that I've seen the destruction this fundamentalist, "us" against "the world" bunker mentality wreaks upon the KIDS (my own daughter tried to kill herself) ~ I had to get out. And suddenly, the Francis Schaeffer quote is not quite so funny now that I'm living it. No more certainty. No more absolutes.
I'm telling my story of escape from extreme Christian fundamentalism here: No Longer Quivering
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» RE: my daughter was anorexic
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» "No more certainty. No more absolutes."
Posted by: Beck
» RE: Welcome back!
Posted by: justAnEgg
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Posted by: NWSuburbanite on Oct 13, 2009 8:57 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a devote believer in God and his Son, I'm curious how they justify this belief and support for a state that looks down upon anyone not Jewish?
Where in the Gospels, did Jesus say, "Oh, and by the way, do whatever you have to do to ensure that I return, even if it means violating the only commandement I have given you. You know, the love your neighbor as yourself one."
These people actually think that by sending their money to Israel and lobbying their representatives in Congress to continue sending the $10 billion a year in tax dollars to Israel, that this will help Jesus return?
Jesus doesn't need their help! What naive chutzpah!
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» RE: Are they really Christians?
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Are they really Christians?
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: Bushmaster on Oct 13, 2009 9:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I listen to fundamentalist radio to see if I jumped the boat for the wrong reasons. I hear the same thing over and over again. These people do not know how to make a choice without finding permission in the 'book' somewhere. The sermons are constantly about being sure you are living 'right' by the 'book'.
I have heard ministers laugh at the idea that God would take care of this enemies. Which would include me in his way of thinking.
I ruined my family and caused my wife to divorce me by following and requiring my family to follow, a strict fundamentalist faith.
The most pernicious doctrine of all is that of 'original sin' which causes those who adhere to it to simply give up their minds and declare themselves to be intellectual invalids incapable of making the right choice without finding the 'right words' in the 'book' to keep them from being in danger of making the wrong decision.
Another thing that disturbs me about the Christian fundamentalist cult is that the world , external reality, begins in our thoughts. The world in their thoughts is not one I want to live in.
I'm glad to see the author writing the words he has written.
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» RE: Amen
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: Rusty Shackleford on Oct 13, 2009 10:05 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't approve of so-called "moderate" Christians, who refuse to acknowledge that they are picking and choosing what doctrines to follow and which to ignore. Sorry, that's like saying that god himself was a moderate, or that he "didn't really mean that bit about not eating shellfish."
Gentle Jesus tender and mild wasn't as much of a pacifist as people think.
He routinely refers to people as doomed to hell for not obeying certain rules he lays out. Old testament punishments tended to revolve around the here and now, mainly with death as a finality, but Jesus was one of the first to advocate the widespread idea of ETERNAL punishment. That doesn't sound very "tender" to me. He even goes so far as to kill an innocent fig tree because it didn't give him fruit, even though it was out of season.
I am an atheist, and I view religion (be it extreme or moderate) as ultimately destructive, because it takes away from people the idea that we are capable of governing ourselves and coming up with our own code of morals.
To me, religion makes sheep out of us all, whether you follow the Old Testament to the letter, or whether you state that you're just living a good life according to Jesus.
The worst bit about religion, to me, is that there's no evidence to even suggest that Jesus actually existed...
Allegorical literature was quite common during the time the gospels were written.
There's absolutely no record of a human Jesus by any contemporary secular writers.
AND, there's pretty much ZERO originality in the Jesus story itself. Every last detail has been taken from older myths and legends of previous son-of-god characters who were born on December 25th, adorned by wise men, were tempted by evil, performed miracles, advocated baptism by water, had a sacrificial meal of bread and wine representing the demigod's body and blood, were crucified, rose from the dead three days later, promised to come again, etc etc etc. NONE of that is original material.
There's a big difference between allowing people to commune with nature and with a feeling of togetherness (call it spirituality), and the rigid, dogmatic ideas of organized religion.
It's one thing for people to want to seek "god," whatever that may be to people, but it's something entirely different to hold world views that contradict basic logic and scientific research, and then demand that one's own specific world views (based on flawed logic, intolerance, etc) be implemented into law.
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» I don't agree that Jesus preached hell. And there are records of Jesus and his crucifixion by
Posted by: Beck
» RE: I don't agree that Jesus preached hell. And there are records of Jesus and his crucifixion by
Posted by: Rusty Shackleford
» The real history is in ruins
Posted by: Blacktiger
» RE: The real history is in ruins for a purpose
Posted by: Changling
» RE: I don't agree that Jesus preached hell. And there are records of Jesus and his crucifixion by
Posted by: ClassAct
» RE: I don't agree that Jesus preached hell. And there are records of Jesus and his crucifixion by
Posted by: Rusty Shackleford
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Posted by: willymack on Oct 13, 2009 10:07 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We could afford to be patient and with and tolerant toward religious loonies, because, although loud, they were relatively harmless, and even a bit amusing.
Not any more! Oh, no; it seems they've rounded up people in Congress and the Senate just as stupid, ignorant, and nasty as they are, and are becoming a major pain in the ass, diverting attention away from far more pressing issues than they can dream up in the "Left Behind" series of trash masquerading as novels.
In a sane world, the majority of citizens would politely listen to the rants and shrieks of religion-besotted morons, then move on to what makes SENSE, but we're not living in a sane world any more. We seem to have an "other side of the story" mentality, where both "sides" have equal validity, and are rationalized to both be true.
This nonsense reasoning could well prove fatal to everything we hold dear, if allowed to continue on to its inevitable conclusion.
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» RE: Patience, my ass! STOP THEM NOW!
Posted by: johnbradleycopeland
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Posted by: drabikmr on Oct 13, 2009 10:12 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My experience of the real God is one that is personal and loves each human being dearly, but still demands of humans justice tempered with mercy. Yet this not permissiveness. If one wills to chose NOT to love back (by not loving others as Jesus, the God-Man taught us) then one will not be able to live with God or the family of God, which is the Church, at all. For one simple reason: one will not be able to endure it.
Hell is there as a response to that act of the human will. It is also, at the same time, a personal choice not to love and the judgment of God.
To offer people the extreme that all will ultimately be saved is to reduce humans, in the end, to nothing more than determined (read here 'fated') creatures than persons with the Will to choose to love or not to love.
And, that, paraphrasing the Bard is the ultimate question God asks each of man and woman through throughout their lives and through the ages. The answer given determines where each person will spend eternity.
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» Hell's residents
Posted by: westomoon
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Posted by: raginghormones on Oct 13, 2009 10:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If Jesus takes you up into heaven, and I'm left behind, can I have your car?
It would be nice to leave the keys to your house too.
And since you're certain that very soon you'll be sitting by the side of the Saviour, are you really going to need that money in your bank account or CD? I mean, you ain't gonna need any Greenbacks once you're in heaven--right?
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» I'd like the Impressionist art, and the violins. Also, a Lotus Elise, although probably THOSE
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: daytripper on Oct 13, 2009 10:42 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Derestanne on Oct 13, 2009 11:27 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"To do good is noble. To tell others how to do good is nobler still - and a lot less trouble"!
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Posted by: Lese Majeste on Oct 13, 2009 1:10 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That's why they're so jacked up over the 'Wars for Wall Street and Israel,' they hope those conflicts lead to nuclear Armageddon.
BTW, the word Rapture does NOT appear in the KJV Bible. It was made up by another Christian whack job around 120 years ago to scare the hell out of people and it works just dandy.
Somehow, praying and hoping for JC to return on a mushroom cloud isn't what he tried to teach when he gave his beautiful "Sermon on the Mount," but feeding the hungry, tending to the sick and sheltering the homeless isn't sexy enough for today's well-heeled Bible thumper.
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» RE: the Rapture
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Oct 13, 2009 2:48 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So to any young Jewish guys out there, here's a warning! If you see that cute Gentile honey winking at you across the room, beware of temptation! She's obviously an agent of the Devil trying to prevent fulfillment of Prophecy! Dont' fall for it! Keep your pants zipped (and your virginity intact!) to do your part in bringing about God's Kingdom on Earth!!!
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Posted by: ClassAct on Oct 13, 2009 3:19 PM
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Modern "rapture" zaniness, it seems to me, has been the outgrowth of the media avalanche first unleashed by "Rosemary's Baby." What if in our modern world that the devil turned out to be real? The conceit of the movie restored the monster, Satan in this case, to the movies after having been banished to B-movies since the 1940s. It unleased a seemingly endless series of "witches are real" media products that are still with us in the form of "vampires are real," spawning along the way "The Exorcist" series and "The Omen" series. The "prophecy is real" version of Christianism arose out of that ... and the opportunism of sociopathic preachers to prey upon credulous believers.
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» RE: Believing fiction
Posted by: Morell
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Posted by: leafsong1 on Oct 13, 2009 3:50 PM
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Posted by: pakkarim on Oct 13, 2009 3:50 PM
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His return will be to his native land, the Middle East, not New York, London, Paris or even Singapore!
So for those who believe in the 'Rapture', they need to go to the Middle East and await his 2nd coming there! And they must hurry... Otherwise they will be left behind!
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Posted by: BobRoberts on Oct 13, 2009 3:53 PM
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Posted by: DaBear on Oct 13, 2009 4:08 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When I finally settled into myself and accepted my atheism, I realized why previously I had been reticent to settle-in and embrace reality... when you come out of a cult that so thoroughly mind-fucks you to the point of a negative and pernicious self-esteem deficit, it's a little tough to shed the pain-body the cult created. You shed the guts only to leave the skin because you're fuckin' scared to. I think Frank'll find that out too... though it'll take a few more years.
I can't agree with his kid gloves when it comes to the LaHaye's and that ilk. I know 'em better than Frank, from the damaged tip of their swords dripping with my own blood. That tends to lend a little needed realism when framing the Cult. These people are lethal and they are dangerous. You are not safe just because you think they're "innocuous" and "blind." Just you wait, Frank, Jerry and Tim will turn on you in a heartbeat once the book begins to rake in the dough. They don't like apostates and they won't give you nearly any of the quarter you are giving them.
A fool turns his back to an armed assailant.
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Posted by: Overburdened Planet on Oct 13, 2009 4:25 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I mean I've read or heard that after death, heaven or hell immediately follows unless purgatory also exists, but even Catholics say not every follower ends up in purgatory so what happens to the rest of the dead while waiting for Judgment Day? Where are they exactly?
I also wonder about the righteous and their perception of charity as described in Matthew 25:
44—"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45—"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46—"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
————
How can conservatives ever believe they are "righteous" when they don't live by Jesus' examples?
Why wouldn't they believe they will "...go away to eternal punishment..." when at every turn they deny that ..."whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me"(?)
You could start with health care reform and the public option and we'll go from there...
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Posted by: tony_opmoc on Oct 13, 2009 4:35 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Unfortunately the entire movie is unsuitable for a naive religious audience, but the religious bit is quite exceptional.
Other parts of the movie, and its later sequels are very interesting, but I do not necessarily agree with much of the content, and the religious loonies would be completely shocked.
I suggest skipping the first 9 minutes, and also do not watch part two unless you are of a strong mental disposition.
Zeitgeist, The Movie
Tony
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» RE: The Religious Section of Zeitgeist The Movie Should Be Compulsorary in Religious Education
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: The Religious Section of Zeitgeist The Movie Should Be Compulsorary in Religious Education
Posted by: tony_opmoc
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Posted by: L5 on Oct 13, 2009 5:00 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Many of us saw religion as harmless nonsense. Beliefs might lack all supporting evidence but,
we thought, if people needed a crutch for consolation, where's the harm?
September 11th changed all that."
"One of the things that is wrong with religion is that it teaches us to be satisfied with answers which are not really answers at all."
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Posted by: dayahka on Oct 13, 2009 6:48 PM
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You criticize freaks in the "second coming" cults, yet you yourself believe in this nonsense. Yours is a "within the family" critique. It's not just the believers in the rapture, but the whole freaking religion who are filled with hate, unreason, and blood lust. Please, spare us any more of this stuff.
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Posted by: lalala on Oct 13, 2009 9:10 PM
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Posted by: Lese Majeste on Oct 14, 2009 3:34 AM
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So is there really a need for these obese, pampered TV preachers who ride around in chauffered limos, fly in private jets and live in mansions while preaching in 20 million dollar cathedrals?
If JC came back to Earth today and started preaching his gospel of love and understanding, those televangelists would be the ones howling for his blood.
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Posted by: athurlow on Oct 14, 2009 6:25 AM
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» Jehovah's Witnesses
Posted by: westomoon
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Posted by: jmmartin on Oct 14, 2009 6:28 PM
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The material he covers here has been done to death. It was probably done best by a deist named Christoper Hedges, e.g. his book and his stuff at Truthdig. What these writers are saying is simply that all religious nuts are loony and all evangelical dominionist religious nuts are very, very loony.
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Posted by: DreamFast on Oct 17, 2009 9:07 AM
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And I keep telling her "Mom, wishing and praying for the end of the world is so incredibly selfish.
Why don't you just kill yourself and leave the rest of us alone".
She doesn't like hearing that for some reason.
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Posted by: aristopus on Oct 17, 2009 9:56 AM
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Google "endmeme" for more info.
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Posted by: paganpat on Oct 17, 2009 4:20 PM
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Posted by: Mugsy12 on Oct 21, 2009 2:40 PM
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