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Barbara Ehrenreich: The Relentless Promotion of Positive Thinking Has Undermined America
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When Barbara Ehrenreich went to be treated for breast cancer, she was exhorted to think positively; and when she expressed feelings of fear and anger, she was chided for being negative.
Ehrenreich, the author of 16 books, including Nickel and Dimed and Bait and Switch, which examine the blue- and white-collar job markets, took on what she sees as an epidemic of positive thinking in her new book: Bright-Sided: How the Relentless Promotion of Positive Thinking Has Undermined America.
Positive thinking is different, she says, from being cheerful or good-natured -- it's believing that the world is shaped by our wants and desires and that by focusing on the good, the bad ceases to exist.
Ehrenreich believes this has permeated our culture and that the refusal to acknowledge that bad things could happen is in some way responsible for the current financial crisis.
In her new book, Ehrenreich examines how the positive-thinking movement was started by Mary Baker Eddy, the founder of Christian Science, and an amateur metaphysician named Phineas Parkhurst Quimby in response to Calvinism; how being positive became mandatory in corporate culture; and how she thinks prosperity preachers, such as Joel Osteen of Lakewood Church in Houston encouraged a culture of debt by telling their congregations that God wants them to have a big house and a nice car.
Emily Wilson: At the beginning of the book, you talk about going to be treated for breast cancer and being told to think positively. Was that what started you thinking about this?
Barbara Ehrenreich: That was my first exposure to positive thinking as an ideology. I was just astounded and dismayed by it. Here I was in a real crisis in my life, and people were trying to market pink ribbon teddy bears to me, and where I thought I would find sort of sisterly support on the Internet, I found instead the constant exhortations to be cheerful and to embrace my disease [she laughs].
EW: What is the difference between being told to try and stay upbeat and to have a good attitude and positive thinking?
BE: I think it's a slippery slope. Once you start on how you have to face your problem with a good attitude, they start looking for justifications for that, and it became you actually get better only if you are upbeat, only if you visualize your recovery and so on.
EW: Were the doctors telling you that?
BE: The doctors don't say much, but there are books they have written, or psychologists have, trying to get in on the breast cancer business, but to my chagrin I was often encountering it from fellow sufferers. Individual women have written books, too, like my favorite, The Gift of Cancer, and it seems to be pretty ubiquitous. I wasn't finding any dissent, and when I tried to dissent on a message board, I was told to run, not walk, to therapy.
EW: You write a lot about how positive thinking is in all aspects of life. Do you think this is the most insidious about it -- this idea of a disease being your fault?
BE: I look at it with a little bit of sociological detachment. It's a brilliant system of social control. When bad things happen to people you say, "Well, it's really your attitude that has to change."
The second big place where I encountered all this was in the kind of motivational services that are offered to laid-off white-collar workers, where every networking event or seminar you get the same message about how it's really your attitude that is going to determine if you're going to get a job and probably has something to do with why you lost that last one.
You take people who have been really victimized, and I use that word advisedly, with cancer and with lay-offs from unaccountable corporations. And then you tell them, "Well, you just have to change the way you think." And that's very clever.
EW: You write about how positive thinking started with Mary Baker Eddy and Phineas Quimby and how it was a response to Calvinism.
BE: I was actually kind of a fan of Quimby. Here was a blue-collar guy, basically a skilled craftsman living in Portland, Maine, and who had a sideline of being a metaphysician. What it's all about is he was rejecting a Calvinist worldview -- that people are damned, that we're wretched sinners and that we should spend all of our time examining our souls for sins and flaws.
And he said "Hey!" [She laughs.] He understood that that worldview was making people sick. It was kind of brilliant, I thought. He was part of a larger populist health movement arising against the regular medical profession.
EW: When does this idea of positive thinking change into being what you're saying it is now?
BE: It had ceased to be seen as a healing method, although that comes back. By the time I encounter it, breast cancer has come back into the health area. But in the early 20th century there was, for the first time, scientific medicine and the beginnings of some sorts of effective treatments. That kind of closed a door for the positive-thinking movement, which then increasingly in the 20th century addressed itself to prosperity and wealth and success.
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Posted by: ohb0b on Oct 10, 2009 12:12 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What if God wants you to become the next Mother Theresa?
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» God is a lie told to control the minds, money and sexual habits of stupid people.
Posted by: The Antichrist
» RE: God is a lie told to control the minds, money and sexual habits of stupid people.
Posted by: richholland
» God's Balls man
Posted by: Hiroak
» Yeah, why DOESN'T God tell those churches he wants them to help the poor? Surely some of them
Posted by: Beck
» Right like it says in the Bible the next best thing to being a capitalist is to think like one!
Posted by: RR#1
» positive thinking has had nothing to do with undermining america
Posted by: masthead
» RE: How thick are we?
Posted by: improperly_sedated
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Posted by: zola77 on Oct 10, 2009 12:28 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The church of positivity think that's the problem with the homeless - they just dont think positive enough. If they had 'the secret' they would all rise out of their drudgery and be successful.
People dont have to analyse society, class structure and relations (yes it does exist in the US people!) and do something about it if they can dismiss people in worse situations than them as 'not working hard enough' or 'not thinking positive' etc.
It was nice to see this interview.
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» RE: Zola, Oprah, Dr. Phil, and Deepak Chopra Shouldn't Be Lumped Together
Posted by: Carol Burns
» RE: Zola, Oprah, Dr. Phil, and Deepak Chopra Shouldn't Be Lumped Together
Posted by: clvngodess
» RE: Zola, Oprah, Dr. Phil, and Deepak Chopra Shouldn't Be Lumped Together
Posted by: pancakebunny
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Posted by: mmckinl on Oct 10, 2009 12:27 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And when that doesn't work they'll fall back on the old standbys Planned Obsolescence and Style Obsolecence ...
Watch This : The Century of the Self
Happiness Machines
The Engineering of Consent
Happiness Machines
What Barbara Ehrenreich and all of us are faced with is a bombardment of psychological messages designed to stimulate and influence our behavior in our purchasing decisions and our very philosophy of life through Corporate Media.
It's no accident that Barbara encountered a wall of intolerance when she felt angry and depressed about her health.
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» Century of the Self: Must see!
Posted by: DignityForAll
» RE: Positive Thinking Is Absolutely Necessary ...
Posted by: charlemagnetejas
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Posted by: Nebris on Oct 10, 2009 1:10 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: ality
Posted by: improperly_sedated
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Posted by: Perry Logan on Oct 10, 2009 2:58 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the 1960s, the philosophy of the counterculture had a strong strain of "positive thinking" to it. But I could never relate to it, because it asked things of my psyche that it couldn't deliver.
For example, you were supposed to feel no shame about your body. The human body is beautiful and natural, etc. This was supposed to happen simply by deciding it was so.
Yea right.
Likewise, the Countercultre were invited to give up all feelings of sexual possessiveness and jealousy. Partners could share love equally, without the old hang-ups.
And yet I was sure the green-eyed monster would remain, no matter how hard I tried to be beyond such things.
Even back then, I never believed for a moment that simply deciding you didn't have a hang-up got rid of the hang-up. This particular part of the New Age philosophy always struck me as dumb.
I'm not dissing the Counterculture or the hippies. On the contrary, I think they were awesome. But I couldn't apply for full membership because I could never get the "curing the world's ills through positive thinking" philosophy to work.
It's interesting that the Counterculture was and is not really "counter" in this. Their use of the positive-thinking model is as American as apple pie.
Le Pig
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» RE: Why the hippies wouldn't let me in
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: Why the hippies wouldn't let me in
Posted by: richholland
» RE: Why the hippies wouldn't let me in
Posted by: Beck
» RE: Why the hippies wouldn't let me in
Posted by: Benn_Miller
» RE: Why the hippies wouldn't let me in
Posted by: johnyradio
» RE: Why the hippies wouldn't let me in
Posted by: JiminSanFrancisco
» RE: Why the hippies wouldn't let me in
Posted by: YellerKitty
» RE: Why the hippies wouldn't let me in
Posted by: johnyradio
» RE: Why the hippies...
Posted by: Cybershaman
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Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line on Oct 10, 2009 3:15 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: It is
Posted by: dogeatdog
» RE: It is
Posted by: richholland
» RE: It does a huge amount of good to sit and cry, THEN get up and get going
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» Don't take Beck seriously. She preaches "realistic" but goes out of touch like crazy.
Posted by: Benn_Miller
» RE: Don't take Beck seriously. She preaches "realistic" but goes out of touch like crazy.
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Don't take Beck seriously. She preaches "realistic" but goes out of touch like crazy.
Posted by: Benn_Miller
» The thrid choice
Posted by: Word Mix
» From the article:
Posted by: nha16
» RE: It is
Posted by: slywy
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Oct 10, 2009 3:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The trouble is that positive thinking is as much an ideology as a philosophy, and is a large part of what we think makes the US better than the rest of the world. Thus, I expect Americans to defend their positive thinking tooth and nail, no matter how little it has to do with reality.
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» RE: Positive
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: Positive
Posted by: susanh
» Give me the Positive Thinking. I'll take it over the alternative any day,
Posted by: avidAmerican
» RE: Positive
Posted by: kahuna_2bears
» RE: Positive
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: Positive
Posted by: Basenjis
» Thoughts are not things. They are thoughts
Posted by: pancakebunny
» RE: Thoughts are not things. They are thoughts
Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: Thoughts are not things. They are thoughts
Posted by: Old Me
» RE: Positive. Ah, the kool-aid drinkers rise!
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Positive. Ah, the kool-aid drinkers rise!
Posted by: Cybershaman
» James Ray's sweat lodge in Sedona
Posted by: Earon
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Posted by: khaleesi on Oct 10, 2009 3:49 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First, regardless of what happens being negative never makes anything better. Does it help to get upset when you wreck your car? No, it just makes you feel terrible. You just have to deal with the problem, and if you can control yourself and stay positive the situation is alot more pleasant. You can apply this to any event in your life. Second, everything in life- the good and the bad- is an experience. Once you can get past the idea of JUDGING an experience and you can apprecaite the experience as an experience you will be enlightened. This mentality that we must be angry to get things done or change the world is typical for the Judeo-Christian society that seeks to always think of life in its present form as less than perfect. That is why they aim to go to 'heaven'. This mindset unfortunately has tainted all of American society. For everyone who does not agree with me- forget Oprah and Dr. Phil- go read a book. It is called The Art of Happiness and it is written by His Holiness the Dalai Lama. I have compassion for all of those who are trapped in a negative state of mind. I hope your lives will be happy after reading this book.
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» The Power of Positive Thinking is exactly what this country needs right now,
Posted by: avidAmerican
» Not the Rich
Posted by: Hiroak
» Being negative DOES accomplish things.
Posted by: heid
» We need realism, not positive thinking
Posted by: bonapartist
» You are *so* missing the point
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: You are *so* missing the point. Not according to my life experience, she isn't.
Posted by: Beck
» RE: You are *so* missing the point. Not according to my life experience, she isn't.
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» NO. YOU are missing the point.
Posted by: nha16
» RE: NO. YOU are missing the point.
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: Being negative DOES accomplish things. Thank you!
Posted by: Beck
» RE: Being negative DOES accomplish things.
Posted by: Old Me
» It's Not All About HOW YOU FEEL!
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» RE: It's Not All About HOW YOU FEEL!
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: I coud not disagree more. I think you greatly misunderstood. Repression leads to deep problems
Posted by: Beck
» all of this is suffering
Posted by: inverse_agonist
» RE: all of this is suffering
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: all of this is suffering
Posted by: inverse_agonist
» So starving third world peasants and proles should appreciate their experience?
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
» Are you saying life in its present form is perfect?
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
» You totally don't get the Dalai Lama
Posted by: jcalhoun
» RE: I coud not disagree more... because you insist on denying that you're an animal
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: I coud not disagree more... because you insist on denying that you're an animal
Posted by: Earon
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Posted by: marxalot on Oct 10, 2009 4:41 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» YEs, every Buddhist book I've read goes into the importance of facing true feelings, not adding
Posted by: Beck
» Buddhists don't play politics like you do.
Posted by: Benn_Miller
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Posted by: Farmertim on Oct 10, 2009 5:07 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Don't show up on time, no prudent or measured thought, just pray on it and if you miss an appointment or what most would consider a considerate gesture in our society...oh, God had other plans for me today....said with a blank smile on their face.
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» RE: and when positive thinking
Posted by: babzter
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Posted by: bonapartist on Oct 10, 2009 5:23 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are already fed truckloads of positive thinking, so much in fact that it became a mantra to replace action. Majority of issues in one's life will require action, with or without positive thinking.
To resolve a problem one first must admit that there is a problem. The positive thinking culture is busy denying that there is a problem and thus the issue remains unsolved.
You can see the sample in current economic downfall, no need to implement a real reform. Just patch up and hope for the best, think positive and continue business as usual.
Scepticism, realism, rationalism, cynicism, pessimism etc are all venues of thinking that can and are useful in certain conditions. The current TV culture discarded them in favor of simplistic think pink attitude.
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» RE: Yes, and we don't have problems any more
Posted by: outsideagitator
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Posted by: ecofriendlynet on Oct 10, 2009 5:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The superficial view of "Positive Thinking" is what is prevalent. Just like most Christianity is so unlike Christ. Surface stuff.
Positive Thinking is a state of heart/mind which remembrance of and reliance on our Highest Self (God, Beloved, Christ, Ezad, etc.,) through all the good and crappy times with the objective of eventual liberation from duality.
We have to do our best, cast our net, do our part. Actions and thought work together. This is obvious.
Getting a disease sucks and the mindless parroting of the "positive thinking" crowd, even worse.
A disease is shitty but also an opportunity for a lot of inner growth and compassion.
It's infinitely better to hope for the best than to fear the worst -- Meher Baba
Give up all forms of parrotry. Start practicing whatever you truly feel to be true and justly to be just. -- Meher Baba
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» RE: Parroty
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
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Posted by: Mimi on Oct 10, 2009 5:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The issue is thinking versus ACTION, the delusion that "I think, therefore IT IS." That thinking something is so makes it so. It's called psychosis.
Those who take the quest for human happiness seriously recognize that taking positive ACTION to right the world's wrongs and injustices leads to authentic happiness, rather than the delusional "think it and it will happen" positive thinking Ehrenreich objects to.
I wish that Ehrenreich had built on one of her best books, Dancing in the Streets: A History of Collective Joy, and focused on the difference between collective action to secure happiness and well-being for all, versus delusional, inner individual thought processes that produce the terrifying and absurd human condition of everyone wearing smiley faces while the world heaves and burns.
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» "Positive Thinking vs Positive Action" Perfect!
Posted by: nha16
» Also, positive thinking is popular because it's the lazy ass alternative to positive action.
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
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Posted by: SekhmetsatRa on Oct 10, 2009 5:47 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Give me negativity any day
Posted by: Trixietheduck
» Agreed
Posted by: BlueTigress
» Exactly right. Traits as significant as emotions evolved to serve a function.
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
» RE: Give me negativity any day
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» Feelings as long as authentic and genuine need to be expressed
Posted by: RR#1
» RE: Give me negativity any day
Posted by: shelley589
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Posted by: souffrantfleur on Oct 10, 2009 5:49 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Trixietheduck on Oct 10, 2009 5:52 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Militant gratitude and "radical forgiveness".
Posted by: Beck
» RE: Militant gratitude and "radical forgiveness".
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» Thanks for the laugh!
Posted by: CV
» It sounds like she has obsessive-compulsive disorder.
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
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Posted by: drricklippin on Oct 10, 2009 6:14 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We will grow up someday
Maybe we have entered our painful but necessary adolescence?
Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton,Pa
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» RE: We Are A Young and Immature Nation
Posted by: nha16
» RE: We Are A Young and Immature Nation
Posted by: theblackgeorgecarlin
» RE: Enough with the "Young Nation" nonsense
Posted by: improperly_sedated
» Growing up requires pain and bad experiences.
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
» The whole time we lived in Germany, I thought, "We Americans are adolescents compared to this".
Posted by: Beck
» RE: The whole time we lived in Germany, I thought, "We Americans are adolescents compared to this".
Posted by: improperly_sedated
» RE: The whole time we lived in Germany, I thought, "We Americans are adolescents compared to this".
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: saquisili on Oct 10, 2009 6:19 AM
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Posted by: anok on Oct 10, 2009 6:32 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People who deal with situations by ignoring it will do that regardless of the positiveness or negativeness of their thought process.
Nor does being positive immediately equate to being nauseatingly happy or chipper. For example: One who has lost their job, and is facing a hard road ahead can think positively by simply saying "We WILL get through this." That's a positive thought, leading to a positive action. It is neither ignorant, nor blind of the facts.
Anyone can take any ideology and go too far with it. However our outlook on life, and our immediate emotions can be and are affected by how we react to them.
Ever make yourself cry by thinking about something sad? Ever get yourself out of a funk by thinking about something enjoyable, or fun?
There you have it, it's just that simple. It's not easy, just simple.
Take whatever time you need to mourn your losses, experience your anger, grief or whathaveyou and then move on. It does you no good to sit around moping about it. It also makes you the type of person that others don't want to be around much, either.
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Posted by: chariotdrvr14 on Oct 10, 2009 6:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But time has tempered my pessimism.
There's a denialism in that which isn't so much positive thinking as much as taking a leap of faith into the realm of self serving fantasy.
That doesn't mean that visualizing what you want and initiating activity to acheive is delusional.
I do remember in my early 20's I was working at a healthfood mexican food restaurant, a chain called The Good Earth and we were trying to organize an alternate food workers' union. The CEO came in and gave us this song and dance about how our serving 'healthy positive food was a service to humanity and a positive action...but that people who wanted unions were negative thinkers who weren't thinking of anyone but themselves'...something to that effect.
I walked out in the middle of that one.
Yeah, I know how new age capitalists use this to any advantage they can, for any justification they want.
And that how 'The Secret' fad... is about taking what a very old spiritual concept and selling it by focusing on selfish materialist motivations. This is my fundamental disagreement with new agers.
But I do think that there are places and instances where positive thinking is both useful and necessary. I would never embrace an illness like cancer and couldn't even imagine any reason to do so. But stressing and bemoaning the fact would never help either. You do have come to a point of acceptance with any situation before you can deal effectively with it.
Positivism...negativism... the point is in never becoming out of balance by embracing the extremes.
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Posted by: drricklippin on Oct 10, 2009 6:50 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ask those who wrote about concentration camp experiences about not giving in to pessimism or hopelessness.
Of course reality tells us all the time to be pessimistic but we must rail against that and live our lives always "as if" things will be ok.
This is our obligation.
Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton,Pa
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» So....
Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: So....
Posted by: drricklippin
» So we the people slaughtered in the camps not optimistic enough?
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
» RE: So we the people slaughtered in the camps not optimistic enough?
Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: Optimism Is......
Posted by: DaBear
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Posted by: loneswaneast on Oct 10, 2009 6:52 AM
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Posted by: Gravitas on Oct 10, 2009 6:56 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However, the concept that thoughts can shape outside reality is in many of the great spiritual traditions of the world. I like what the mystic Edgar Cayce said about "mind being the builder." He said thoughts create reality BUT it was far more complicated than just making out a wish list. Thoughts had to be couple with action, principles had to be lived, intentions had to be defended with acts of faith. It is hard work, not just magic wishes.
It is very sad that this essential spiritual concept has been watered down and commercialized. But it is not all or nothing. Few on this board would reject nutrition just because there are charlatans with miracle diets overstating their case. We don't need to reject a powerful tool to reshape reality just because spiritual snakeoil salesmen exist!
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» RE: Mind is the Builder
Posted by: babzter
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Posted by: melpol on Oct 10, 2009 6:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Think Realistically
Posted by: nha16
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Posted by: americansheep on Oct 10, 2009 7:03 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: nha16 on Oct 10, 2009 7:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've always suspected a certain behind the scenes, conscious promotion of these "positive thinking" ideas as a means of control. Society needs people who see clearly and aren't afraid to confront the bad things in this world. They serve as an early warning system to the rest of the clan, and deserve respect, not ridicule. If it could be tested, I'll bet we could trace our current conundrum to the broad, conscious application of these ridiculous ideas.
I believe that this is the main reason people generally scorn those in need, and protect the wealthy in our society. They know if they frame that dollar bill and smile on it each day with positive thoughts of abundance, they too will someday draw that wealth to themselves and be protected by the same system that today victimizes them.
If we can call out this nonsense in any meaningful way, we may have a chance to recover. I hope Ehrenreich's book breaks the decades-old ice on this subject. It really could be our path back to reality.
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Posted by: troubleinmind254 on Oct 10, 2009 7:16 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just like the financial crisis, the wars in Irpakanistan, the rosy self-denial of our personal interactions and public policy can case more harm than good.
Whats the old cliche and correct if I'm wrong "Err of the side of caution" ?
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Posted by: JenniferBedingfield on Oct 10, 2009 7:19 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Another example is the way Obama is poorly handling the economic crisis. As usual, the corporate media lies about the economy getting better when nothing could be farther from the truth. The economy getting better is an illusion. Bailing out Wall $treet has done nothing to ease the pain and suffering of homeowners who actually needed assistance. And what about slowing down the shipping of jobs overseas? There are no policies being planned on that to the best of my knowledge and the unemployment rate keeps going up and even amongst those who are still employed there are those who face more cuts in wages and/or benefits. Better for companies to slit their wrist and screw the employees and appease those crooked stockholders isn't it?
And here's my favorite example. Everyone screams about race and yet very few people acknowledge that the "Patriot" Act is the big gorilla sitting in the room. Without that bloody act, most of the racial profiling we're seeing today wouldn't exist. I don't see anything positive for minorities trying to make it through this bloody dog eat dog society when racial profiling is persecuting them the most.
We can have positive thinking but too much blissful ignorance is dangerous and the results are showing.
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» RE: There's positive thinking and then there blissfully ignorant thinking.
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: There's positive thinking and then there blissfully ignorant thinking.
Posted by: JenniferBedingfield
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Posted by: curiousdwk on Oct 10, 2009 7:19 AM
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» RE: How About The Secret?
Posted by: nha16
» RE: How About The Secret?
Posted by: wrinklemomma
» RE: How About The Secret? Her book devotes sections to The Secret
Posted by: improperly_sedated
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Posted by: stormchilde1975 on Oct 10, 2009 7:22 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Can we revive Stoicism?
Posted by: improperly_sedated
» Stoicism preaches self reliance...
Posted by: Ayla87
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Posted by: babzter on Oct 10, 2009 7:23 AM
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I remember being told "What you can conceive and believe, you will achieve." (Nightingale??) What a gross deception of real life.
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Posted by: littlepitcher on Oct 10, 2009 8:14 AM
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Emotions create hormonal changes. Manipulating our emotional states to keep healthy is a must. Viewing bad times as opportunities to help our fellow human sufferers helps us, as a group, improve the conditions of our race one-on-one, and as a group.
Manipulations of "positivity" by sales and customer service supervisors, and by anti-organizational goons, are just profitability moves which benefit the company and customer but do little for the non-commissioned worker.
Despite this, I've admired and read Ehrenreich for 30 years, and hope sincerely that her health improves. She might consider looking into my personal suspicion that mastectomies are the new unnecessary hysterectomy, a profit maker for misogynist medical practitioners and, with briberies of underpaid cytotechnologists, an easy way for husbands to dispose of wives, or for the system to dispose of unwanted activists.
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» RE: steering clear of depression
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: steering clear of depression
Posted by: Basenjis
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Posted by: metamind on Oct 10, 2009 8:23 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This kind of thinking keeps us from changing a DYSFUNCTIONAL system. It puts all the responsibility on the individual and ignores how the system itself has failed. Only YOU can fail with this philosophy. Nobody else can do anything wrong.
The truth is that WE THE PEOPLE need to come together and change our political and economic systems. Big changes are needed and as long as people believe "it's my fault" they won't come together and change the systems.
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» And yet, you've missed the point.
Posted by: anok
» RE: This positive thinking nonsense has kept us from dealing with problems
Posted by: wrinklemomma
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Posted by: johnyradio on Oct 10, 2009 8:38 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Psychological factors can predict the response to primary chemotherapy in patients with locally advanced breast cancer."
Institute of Rehabilitation, University of Hull
"Optimistic women have a lower risk of developing heart disease or dying from any cause compared to pessimistic women, according to research reported in Circulation: Journal of the American Heart Association."
University of Pittsburgh
"stress and emotion appear to have important implications for the initiation or progression of cancer, HIV, cardiovascular disease, and other illnesses."
Annual Review of Psychology
"Various psychosocial factors, particularly cancer-related concerns and depression, appear to be related to preoperative and postoperative VEGF level in patients with newly diagnosed colorectal cancer."
Academic Surgical Unit, Cancer Division, University of Hull, UK
"Relaxation training and guided imagery beneficially altered putative anti-cancer host defences during and after multimodality therapy."
United Lincolnshire Hospitals NHS Trust, United Kingdom.
"Professor Leslie Walker, a director of the Institute of Rehabilitation at Hull University, has just begun the largest ever trial into the impact of thought processes on the body's ability to fight cancer."
Three-year trial, involving 180 bowel-cancer patients.
Approaching life with optimism and confidence is not denial. As Ben Franklin said, “Expect the best. Prepare for the worst." Expecting the best does not mean closing one's eyes to reality.
It's a big stretch for Ms. E to equate her experience with cancer with the economic crisis.
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Posted by: anok on Oct 10, 2009 8:56 AM
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Positive thinking: "I have cancer, it sucks, I am scared. But I have a good doctor, and I will get through this."
Negative thinking: "I have cancer, I will never overcome it no matter what happens. I might as well give up and die now."
See the difference?
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» RE: I continue to see responses that confuse the matter.
Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: I continue to see responses that confuse the matter. Et tu, anok?
Posted by: DaBear
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Posted by: gradlady on Oct 10, 2009 9:02 AM
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» "Rage" May Be A Good Thing
Posted by: johnyradio
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Posted by: reykr on Oct 10, 2009 9:39 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Some time, around 1950, a minister named Norman Vincent Peale wrote a book titled, "The Power Of Positive Thinking."
In 1952, the Republicans had a "positive thinking" slogan about Eisenhower, their Presidential candidate that year. It was this: "I like Ike." He was nicknamed "Mr. Clean," by The Democrats, because he had no political record for them to criticize.
Adlai Stevenson, the Democratic candidate, thought the Biblical Epistles of the Apostle Paul were more relevant to Christianity than "Positive Thinking" was. Stevenson once quipped, "I find Paul appealing, and Peale appalling."
That was an example of the "contrapuntal" comments that speechwriter Ted Sorenson often put into President Kennedy's speeches. For example, in one of his speeches, Kennedy said, "We must not negotiate from fear, but we must not fear to negotiate."
My Blog's URL is:
http://reykr.livejournal.com/
Jerry Baker
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Posted by: suetiggers on Oct 10, 2009 9:56 AM
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Grumps and curmudgeons unite....we at least know what's really happening. Rome is burning and this is what has been passed to our new leader.
Hope he isn't too cheery. an old woman
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» RE: LONG OVERDUE, THANKS BARBARA
Posted by: shelley589
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Posted by: badkitty on Oct 10, 2009 10:31 AM
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Posted by: Rusty Shackleford on Oct 10, 2009 11:58 AM
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There's absolutely nothing wrong with rational thinking and being right in the middle there.
Positive thinking says: I WILL get through this crisis.
Negative thinking says: I WON'T get through this crisis.
Both sides seem absolutely certain about their fate, when, in reality, neither one really KNOWS what's going to happen.
There's nothing wrong with saying:
I DON'T KNOW what's going to happen in this crisis.
People prefer to take one side or the other because there's something far more frightening than anything else to them, and that's the fact that THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.
They would rather live in delusion, (positive or negative), than simply admit that they don't know, and be content to let things run their course.
Positive thinking is especially abhorrent because it tends to claim that one's destiny is completely within one's own control.
Things are determined by chance and probability. On THAT, can you base your views. NOT on dead certainty, positive or negative.
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Posted by: willymack on Oct 10, 2009 1:04 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Rodney Dangerfiels school of thought may be at work here:
Hey, I had my identity stolen last month. A week ago, the thief called begging me to take it back. No respect.
In my opinion, a change in the economic order may be happening.
The change is viewed by most of us as a threat to our lives as we know them, but who knows? It may be a BENEFICIAL change. Then again.....
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Posted by: ranger1 on Oct 10, 2009 1:18 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People will ask me how am I doing.
My response:
"It's just another day in paradise ...except for the Bush/Obama wars, corporate malfeasance, neoliberal trade policies, lying scheming mortgage loan lenders, securitizing bankers who sold AAA rated crap to my pension plan, AAA crap converted to AAA gold by security ratings agencies, 42,000 corporate lobbyists in Washington etc, etc,,,,other than that, it's all good.
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Posted by: PaulK on Oct 10, 2009 1:54 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
200 years ago 1 in 1800 people got cancer. Our children will probably reach 1 in 2 people.
The causes of cancer are related to corporations making a penny and stealing our health. The food is drained of natural nutrients and is stuffed with carcinogenic chemicals that you don't taste. The stuff under your sink is carcinogenic too. You put carcinogens on your skin.
How are we going to get together..
On the Internet of course. We're going to have to develop a system to successfully screen out most or all of the paid pro-carcinogen boiler room bloggers. That's the next step, and we're not completely stupid, you know. After that we'll organize faster and better.
..and do something about it?
I expect a general movement toward third-party non-governmental certification. Is a co-op or a company a good corporate citizen or no? The good ones band together in an economic (and somewhat political?) union and lock out the others from our community. The baddies can always go off and murder the dwindling pool of citizens that still trust them.
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Posted by: blurider on Oct 10, 2009 3:14 PM
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Have you ever watched an injured animal licking a wound and observed that it appeared in time to aid the healing? Have you thought that the animal couldn't consciously 'know' that the licking action might help? Like it or not, there's 'magic' involved. Not a 'magic' trick as we've come to think of it nor a religious epiphany but simply a part of reality that we haven't always understood. That animal and his earliest ancestors have intuitively 'known' for centuries that he was both increasing the blood flow and circulation to the injury and directing his own mental energy toward the wound and it's healing. Such 'knowledge' seems to have been passed in his DNA more than by example or 'discovery'.
While dogs have licked their wounds since pre-historic times, modern medicine has only recently accepted that our minds are capable of healing or aiding the healing of, our bodies.
As always, 'magic' is simply something we don't, yet understand.
Many years ago in pre-pubescence, I had my first experience of solving my daily, mundane problems in my dreams. At first I accepted it as mystical but certainly useful and a 'gift'. Since - many decades later, I have realized that it's just my subconscious mind working overtime while my body and my conscious mind, rest. The 'practice' works as well for the adult, more 'rational' me as it did for the young, 'mystical' me but I've come to accept that I can't control it through any rational procedure, ritual or discipline beyond mere documentation - sketching and writing notes as I begin my morning in the conscious world. There are problems that can be solved rationally during my waking hours while some problems are more difficult and may not lend themselves to any solution. Then there are those which seemingly, may be solved only by my subconscious while I sleep.
After years of 'trying' I've come to accept that I have little control except to cultivate the habits of a visionalry artist and to accept and to 'keep' through my practice. all the gifts of my dreams - some just visual material for new art, some the solution to problems that apply to other, more mundane aspects of my life - all useful and all gifts from the very edges of the realms of 'magic'.
From my experience in my reality as both a rational man who deals with the practical aspects of business and the mystical aspects of creativity, I'd have to say tha Barbara Ehrenreich is both right and wrong! She is quite right that positive thinking (magical thinking) will neither balance your checkbook nor address our economic issues. She couldn't be more correct in pointing out how some have been manipulated and misled by a kind of mass hysteria and how counterintuitive it is to mix (fake) spirituality with materialism and greed
I will grant too, that most if not all, of what she might be mistaken about, science hasn't yet discovered but all the same I'm convinced from my own experience that there exists a space in which she is very likely, very badly, mistaken!
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Posted by: johnyradio on Oct 10, 2009 5:17 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the comments in this thread are all over the map, because i think Ms. E's premise is not legitimate.
there's mounting scientific indication that emotions affect physical health (see my links above to research studies). which has NOTHING to do with Amway, Wall Street, or the Bible.
her position speaks neither to the Left nor to the Right, she's just attempting to rouse the emotions of both.
i'm sure she'll sell some books.
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» Looked at her book yesterday and she cites 2 studies that show positive cancer patients do worse
Posted by: Beck
» Positive cancer patient, eh?
Posted by: Benn_Miller
» RE: NOT CALLED FOR
Posted by: improperly_sedated
» You're right. I think I'll put the political gun down here.
Posted by: Benn_Miller
» A Very Weak Metaphor
Posted by: johnyradio
» RE: A Very Weak Metaphor
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: Angela Flynn on Oct 10, 2009 6:56 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is what Ehrenreich is lamenting. In irrational positive thinking there is a disconnect with reality and then there is the corresponding lack of taking action to enact needed change. This is a corporate practice. Rather than face the harm done by business practices the strategy is to demonize/ridicule those who draw attention to and try to change them.
Everything is not fine. We are facing the most dire environmental crisis in human history. The irrational positive thinkers insist we do nothing. The rational positive thinkers are creating the change we need, but they are hindered every step of the way by the irrational positive thinkers. We need to wake them up out of their dream. It is a dream that is turning the world into a nightmare.
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Posted by: Romantic Violence on Oct 10, 2009 7:18 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
FTW
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Posted by: crmcvin on Oct 10, 2009 8:49 PM
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» RE: the optimism trap
Posted by: Romantic Violence
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Posted by: Benn_Miller on Oct 11, 2009 6:50 AM
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Posted by: Lily H. on Oct 11, 2009 8:41 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I speak from first-hand experience, as I too, "joined" the breast-cancer community in 2005. I was also surrounded by myriads of pink accessories, and while in the beginning, I thought it was juvenile and kind of immature. As time (and my ordeal) wore on, I started to take to some of the cute-sey items, and when I go to chemo now, I wrap a toy stuffed animal around my IV pole, so the nurses and other patients
have something funny to look at during those dreary hours.
I get the sense from her accounts that BE probably needed more personal support and wasn't seeming to get any. My hospital set me up with a wonderful support group, maybe BE needed to do that as well?
As BE spoke of her experiences with the job coach sessions, seems she just isn't a real "joiner", that is, prefers to operate solo instead. Well, if that's the case, then she shouldn't have expected the world to fall at her feet in her time of crisis.
Another perspective that she is mostly correct on in the "positive thinking" tenet is that of my ex-husband. When I met him thirty years ago, he was already drinking the Kool-Aid of positive thinking while in college working towards a business degree.
He was constantly braying that with just a little time and perseverance, he was going to graduate and secure a well-paying career in short order. While there was nothing wrong with that in the main, he had many inner personal flaws (I discovered much later) that this popular and sunshiny view tended to conceal.
It was apparent that just taking on the view of "positive thinking" became a substitute for dealing with one's own personal issues and how to maximize one's own potential based on reality, not simple bromides.
Since then, while he never achieved his imagined goals, I had to grapple with the reality of what our lives would have been if I'd stayed with him and his overactive imagination. Deciding this was definitely NOT the choice I wished for myself and our children, I chose to leave him and pick up the pieces.
What motivated me was not pure positive thinking, but that along with a healthy dose of anger at the situation I needed to change and my willingness to go the extra mile it took in doing so. At no time did I believe positive thinking alone would be sufficient, and anyone who thinks that is emotionally deficit.
After my experiences, I believe BE's views are valid, but with a disclaimer. Short-sightedness cloaked in the banner of "positive thinking" just sets one up for gross failure and a dismal outcome. Reality needs to be a part of the picture, and that includes those following "The Secret" and those Oprah-watchers clinging to her every word.
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Posted by: johnyradio on Oct 11, 2009 9:11 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The same consumers who bought into the culture of debt perpetrated by companies like General Motors (starting 100 years ago), and feel-good advertising spewed by TV.
That kind of "positive thinking" has played a significant role in our problems today, but it was birthed by a culture of greed, which Ms. E minimizes-- "You can't rule out greed and the exceeding rapid nature of transactions and globalization and all that".
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Posted by: Parcival01 on Oct 11, 2009 9:38 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The roots of the "theology" can be traced at least to the 1930s with Napolean Hill's "Think and Grow Rich." And it's been encouraged by Dale Carnagie, Norman Vincent Peale, and, these days, the "Secret" nonsense. Ehernreich eloquently commented on all of them--and a host of other motivational speakers, and the CEOs who endorse them, in "This Land Is Their Land."
I think I'll pick up this latest book too.
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» RE: She said much the same in "This Land is Their Land"
Posted by: dealmeinfo2
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Posted by: wtfo on Oct 11, 2009 10:05 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I hope that when I finally have to come face-to-face with my mortality or (even worse) the mortality of my loved ones, I will be able to draw strength from being sentient and intelligent and, most importantly, realistic in my response.
My concern with overly-positive thinking or "just leaving the problem to God" is that it really doesn't help you too much when that's all you do and things don't get any better as a result. If your only response to serious problems is to just put on a happy face and think positive or drop on your knees and pray, then the difficult work of truly dealing with the problem at hand and planning for best AND worst-case scenarios is short-changed.
How many times have you heard of people who were faced with an imminent and highly potential end-of-life difficulty and, in spite of their positive attitude and religious convictions, ultimately lost the battle and left their family much worse off than if they had instead suddenly had their life snuffed out? When facing your possible end of life wouldn't it be better to instead focus on the REALISTIC choices and making sure that you have covered the worst case scenario just in case the best case scenario does not play out?
Many years ago I was a skydiver and, being well aware of the negative potential of a less-than-successful jump, I researched heavily into what to do when things went wrong. Interestingly, there was not too much in the research about keeping a positive attitude and very little about praying. What there WAS of interest basically centered on:
1) Realistically and honestly appraising the situation as quickly as possible
2) Determining the possible things to do to eliminate the problem at hand as quickly as possible
3) Choosing the best alternative
4) Implementing the plan immediately
Failing to do any of the above steps in the right order and within the very limited time at hand pretty much insured the worst case scenario. Even more importantly, for this problem there was only one person you could count on - yourself. And your success or failure in dealing with your problem was entirely dependent on realistically doing everything right as quickly as possible.
I no longer skydive but the lessons learned from the above mental exercise have been ingrained into my thinking. So, the only positive thinking that I now strive for is the kind that results in realistically doing what I need to do myself to fix the problem - knowing that, in spite of everything that can be done, eventually there are some problems that I simply will not be able to correct in time.
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Posted by: Just Me on Oct 11, 2009 10:11 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have to agree that it's only those at the top that tell others to think positively since it serves as a distraction while the "haves" continue to get more.
Sure it is said that we must be upbeat and look forward to a positive outcome but in order to realize the outcome we want we have to first acknowledge that there is something wrong and then actually do something to change it.
In the workplace those who speak up about issues that need resolution are told to keep their negative comments to themeselves so as not to impact morale even if morale is already low to begin with because of the problems that exist.
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Posted by: marjani on Oct 11, 2009 10:19 AM
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Posted by: joseywales on Oct 11, 2009 10:29 AM
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Posted by: daw13 on Oct 11, 2009 10:45 AM
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This is crap. The world has changed. What we do to them they will do back to us, quite effectively. It's not politically correct on the Left to view Third Worlders as other than victims. But they have become much more than merely victims. Our "positive thinking" that we can escape the fate we visit upon others, no matter how we claim to deplore it, is the most dangerous illusion we maintain.
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Posted by: nonknown101 on Oct 11, 2009 12:15 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the christian right uses this technique to shut up the opposition.
positive thinking is used to fire employees that don't believe they should be robbed by their employer, this is the begining of the come back of slavery folks, don't argue with the master or you'll be whipped, thats what this all about!!!
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Posted by: outsideagitator on Oct 11, 2009 2:19 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
though I lost that relationship, which made me sad I know I made the right decision. I feel good about my decision to keep on keeping on, to join with others to fight back, to build a vision of a better alternative and to hell with the smiley faced naysayers. Barbara is so right. The actions taken together collectively to fight social injustice, stop these senseless and cruel wars, and maybe even heal our environment are the reward, win or loose.
Joseph
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» Sometimes, people are afraid of their closest doing the right thing.
Posted by: Benn_Miller
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Posted by: zigy on Oct 11, 2009 2:58 PM
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Posted by: franklyspanking on Oct 11, 2009 4:47 PM
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...by no other means than making sure they're all in her preferred tent o' demons.
Good luck shilling your latest propaganda!
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Posted by: sherry on Oct 12, 2009 10:00 AM
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Of special interest is the fact that people who suffer from the syndrome he describes are people who cope well.
I know the idea sounds too simplistic, and I seriously doubt it will have widespread acceptance because it's blatantly not marketable. I guess Dr. Sarno has made a bit from selling his books, but I can't see selling black ribbons to remind me to tell my brain to deal with its negative thoughts instead of pushing them off on some other part of my body. To make matters worse,as far as profit goes, he tells his patients to abandon useless medication and physical therapy too so no money there. Repressed anxiety (positive thinking) appears to be capitalistic-friendly; not so much for admitting our fears, anxieties, angers.
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» Yes, interesting that it was the good copers who did worse.
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: raginghormones on Oct 12, 2009 10:08 AM
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Posted by: astralman on Oct 12, 2009 3:36 PM
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Posted by: gragra on Oct 12, 2009 6:02 PM
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Posted by: gragra on Oct 12, 2009 6:25 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
however, i have long been much encouraged by the concept of the dialectic. that is, from thesis to antithesis and hence to synthesis. the beauty of it is: it can be practised as a solitary exercise, between two people; or many.
unlike religion and/or the geeks, the dialectic does not suffer the certain impetus towards absolutism. because? it is fluid and dynamic. a synthesis can therefore lead to a new thesis.
gragra
australia
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Posted by: welshrats on Oct 12, 2009 7:59 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have a friend who was diagnosed with breast cancer. Her co-worker, oozing concern, said Oh honey, you brought this on yourself. How my friend kept from snatching that woman bald-headed I'll never know.
I had an acupuncturist, infected with a terminal case of New Ageism, who told me, in all seriousness, that the woman I'd just seen limp out of her office was in a car wreck months ago and severed her spine but now she's walking with a cane and getting better and better because she'd rejected Western medicine and was in a zone of bliss and blah blah woof woof. I have a best friend who is a paraplegic so, after this doctor finished her cheerful upbeat diatribe, I let loose my savage inner beast -- with a few tidbits of scientific data thrown in for flavoring. Hopefully she'll never express such ignorance on that subject again --maybe for fear of reprisals in which my reiki-like powers could be used for evil. Anyway, I sure felt better. Talk about the power of positive expression!
Joan Didion wrote a marvelous book on grief, meaning and unanswerable questions: The Year of Magical Thinking. The best book I've read on living with a parent's Alzheimer's: Death in Slow Motion by Eleanor Cooney. Not a passage of blissful ignorance to be found in either.
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» RE: Don't Mess with my Angst
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: metamind on Oct 12, 2009 8:55 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Justice is required. That's how we learn from our mistakes. If we don't investigate and prosecute the people who did evil deeds under the Bush administration ( especially 9-11 ) we will be living the lies they put into our heads.
It's a great line .... let's look to the future rather than the past. But the truth is that we need to look back and seek justice. That means some people need to go to prision.
Otherwise, we are letting them get away with evil.
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Posted by: welshrats on Oct 13, 2009 1:21 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
New cure for the excessively chipper!
FDA approves depressant drug for the annoyingly cheerful!
Do you collect ceramic animal figurines?
Talk to people in line at the grocery store?
Participate in community theatre?
Do you organize neighborhood potlucks?
Do you tell people how cute their outfits are?
Despondex could be right for you!
This drug has been pre-approved and tested on hundreds of realtors
and kindergarten teachers
Video includes natural remedies for the gratingly upbeat including:
Following the News
Visiting Rest Homes
Thinking about how Old you are and how Little you've Accomplished
Considering Man's Impact on Nature
Interacting with Kinko's employees
White Bread
(Critics warn natural treatments can just as effectively crush soul)
http://www.theonion.com/content
/video/fda_approves_depressant_drug_for
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Posted by: dbaldwin3e on Oct 13, 2009 6:39 PM
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Posted by: Maxdm on Oct 14, 2009 3:03 AM
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Posted by: Bytesmiths on Oct 14, 2009 10:39 AM
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Positive thinking is an important part of my life, and I am convinced it can make good changes -- sometimes profound changes -- in anyone's life.
I would have felt better if she had talked about the "misuse" or "abuse" of positive thinking, rather than tarring the entire concept with a broad brush.
She somehow conflates "positive thinking" with the "greed is good" movement. By doing so, she falls into the trap of those she decries, because that's what they're doing, as well.
I am convinced that positive thinking can help us get what we need. But too many proponents exhort their followers to believe that it can get them whatever they want. It seems to me that America's psychotic confusion about needs and wants would have made a better topic for a book!
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Posted by: susanh on Oct 14, 2009 1:29 PM
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how-to-survive-a-north-korean-labor-camp/ that reminded me of the problems I have with some articulations of optimism. This paradox seems true.
"But no matter how physically strong you may be, the people who survive a situation like this are always those who are psychologically strong. Surprisingly, it is the most optimistic who will have the most problems. This is a condition known as the Stockdale Paradox, named after Admiral James Stockdale, the highest-ranking American POW in Vietnam.
Stockdale said these optimists were the first ones who perished in captivity. These were the prisoners who were certain they’d be released by a specific date (say, Christmas) and when the imprisonment continued past that period, they grew more and more disheartened until they died of a “broken heart.” Here’s what Stockdale said about surviving under such conditions: “This is a very important lesson. You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end—which you can never afford to lose—with discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.”
And that’s the paradox–that you must be able to face your stark reality, but never give up hope. I know this sounds like an impossible thing to do under these circumstances, but if you’re going to survive in a North Korean labor camp, you don’t have a choice.
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Posted by: A. Servant on Oct 14, 2009 4:23 PM
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Posted by: Overburdened Planet on Oct 16, 2009 5:21 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Barbara Ehrenreich mentioned in The Colbert Report interview that Americans have replaced genuine or reality-based empathy with the admonishment to “think positive,” a pseudoscientific path towards fantastical thinking (see “Positive Thinking Doesn’t Work”).
Americans are out of touch with reality in other ways…
American Movies and Test Audiences:
More American films portray fantasies where the hero triumphs and gets the girl than foreign films depicting death and loss. Test audiences affect how movies are made in America.
Positive Thinking Doesn’t Work:
Michael Shermer, founder of The Skeptics Society, and Editor in Chief of its magazine Skeptic, denounces positive thinking simply because the power of positive thinking did not save from the Holocaust:
Atheists, Blacks, Boy and Girl Scouts, Catholics, Communists, Czechs, Eastern Christians, Freemasons, Gypsies, Handicapped, Homosexuals, Immigrants, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Jews, Leftists, Little People, Mentally Ill, People with deformities, People with big noses, Poles, POWs, Protestants, Refugees, Resistance fighters from Belgium, France, Holland, Russians, Socialists, Spanish Republicans, Ukrainians, or Yugoslavians.
Bowling for Columbine:
Michael Moore compared the rates of divorce, unemployment, gun ownership and video game use in America against rates of gun violence in America, Canada, Germany, Australia and Japan.
I don’t recall his linking exposure rates to violence on TV and in movies and how they may contribute to actual violence but I do remember his failure to ask viewers whether they thought Americans are more susceptible or prone to fantastical thinking, which in my opinion is a compelling reason for violence in America.
If Americans are raised without an emphasis on critical thinking, would fantasy be a credible fallback plan? A sociologist I know on another forum collects responses from prisoners to determine why they committed their crimes, and the most common response is they thought they would get away with it, clearly indicating fantastical thinking. And why are more believers in federal prisons than non-believers; is there a connection between their faith and their fantasy?
Joel Osteen/Religion:
This pastor follows the Word-of-Faith movement:
“The emphasis in Word-of-Faith doctrine is all on success, prosperity, advancement, gain, health and strength. There is little compassion for those who fail to come up to these exacting standards.”
Basically, if you aren’t healthy and wealthy, you’re a sinner, or failed in the eyes of God.
I wonder what excuse is given when bad things happen to them or their followers.
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Posted by: greenknight on Oct 18, 2009 2:46 AM
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Unfortunately, the positive thinking gurus have led people to believe that all you have to do is think positively and everything will be great. It's magical thinking, expecting your thoughts to change the world without you having to do anything.
If positive thinking leads to positive actions, it's a good thing; but if positive thinking is a substitute for action, or if optimism replaces reasonable caution, that's a very bad thing.
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Posted by: ohb0b on Oct 10, 2009 12:12 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What if God wants you to become the next Mother Theresa?
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» God is a lie told to control the minds, money and sexual habits of stupid people.
Posted by: The Antichrist
» RE: God is a lie told to control the minds, money and sexual habits of stupid people.
Posted by: richholland
» God's Balls man
Posted by: Hiroak
» Yeah, why DOESN'T God tell those churches he wants them to help the poor? Surely some of them
Posted by: Beck
» Right like it says in the Bible the next best thing to being a capitalist is to think like one!
Posted by: RR#1
» positive thinking has had nothing to do with undermining america
Posted by: masthead
» RE: How thick are we?
Posted by: improperly_sedated
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Posted by: zola77 on Oct 10, 2009 12:28 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The church of positivity think that's the problem with the homeless - they just dont think positive enough. If they had 'the secret' they would all rise out of their drudgery and be successful.
People dont have to analyse society, class structure and relations (yes it does exist in the US people!) and do something about it if they can dismiss people in worse situations than them as 'not working hard enough' or 'not thinking positive' etc.
It was nice to see this interview.
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» RE: Zola, Oprah, Dr. Phil, and Deepak Chopra Shouldn't Be Lumped Together
Posted by: Carol Burns
» RE: Zola, Oprah, Dr. Phil, and Deepak Chopra Shouldn't Be Lumped Together
Posted by: clvngodess
» RE: Zola, Oprah, Dr. Phil, and Deepak Chopra Shouldn't Be Lumped Together
Posted by: pancakebunny
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Posted by: mmckinl on Oct 10, 2009 12:27 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And when that doesn't work they'll fall back on the old standbys Planned Obsolescence and Style Obsolecence ...
Watch This : The Century of the Self
Happiness Machines
The Engineering of Consent
Happiness Machines
What Barbara Ehrenreich and all of us are faced with is a bombardment of psychological messages designed to stimulate and influence our behavior in our purchasing decisions and our very philosophy of life through Corporate Media.
It's no accident that Barbara encountered a wall of intolerance when she felt angry and depressed about her health.
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» Century of the Self: Must see!
Posted by: DignityForAll
» RE: Positive Thinking Is Absolutely Necessary ...
Posted by: charlemagnetejas
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Posted by: Nebris on Oct 10, 2009 1:10 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: ality
Posted by: improperly_sedated
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Posted by: Perry Logan on Oct 10, 2009 2:58 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the 1960s, the philosophy of the counterculture had a strong strain of "positive thinking" to it. But I could never relate to it, because it asked things of my psyche that it couldn't deliver.
For example, you were supposed to feel no shame about your body. The human body is beautiful and natural, etc. This was supposed to happen simply by deciding it was so.
Yea right.
Likewise, the Countercultre were invited to give up all feelings of sexual possessiveness and jealousy. Partners could share love equally, without the old hang-ups.
And yet I was sure the green-eyed monster would remain, no matter how hard I tried to be beyond such things.
Even back then, I never believed for a moment that simply deciding you didn't have a hang-up got rid of the hang-up. This particular part of the New Age philosophy always struck me as dumb.
I'm not dissing the Counterculture or the hippies. On the contrary, I think they were awesome. But I couldn't apply for full membership because I could never get the "curing the world's ills through positive thinking" philosophy to work.
It's interesting that the Counterculture was and is not really "counter" in this. Their use of the positive-thinking model is as American as apple pie.
Le Pig
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» RE: Why the hippies wouldn't let me in
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: Why the hippies wouldn't let me in
Posted by: richholland
» RE: Why the hippies wouldn't let me in
Posted by: Beck
» RE: Why the hippies wouldn't let me in
Posted by: Benn_Miller
» RE: Why the hippies wouldn't let me in
Posted by: johnyradio
» RE: Why the hippies wouldn't let me in
Posted by: JiminSanFrancisco
» RE: Why the hippies wouldn't let me in
Posted by: YellerKitty
» RE: Why the hippies wouldn't let me in
Posted by: johnyradio
» RE: Why the hippies...
Posted by: Cybershaman
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Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line on Oct 10, 2009 3:15 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: It is
Posted by: dogeatdog
» RE: It is
Posted by: richholland
» RE: It does a huge amount of good to sit and cry, THEN get up and get going
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» Don't take Beck seriously. She preaches "realistic" but goes out of touch like crazy.
Posted by: Benn_Miller
» RE: Don't take Beck seriously. She preaches "realistic" but goes out of touch like crazy.
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Don't take Beck seriously. She preaches "realistic" but goes out of touch like crazy.
Posted by: Benn_Miller
» The thrid choice
Posted by: Word Mix
» From the article:
Posted by: nha16
» RE: It is
Posted by: slywy
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Oct 10, 2009 3:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The trouble is that positive thinking is as much an ideology as a philosophy, and is a large part of what we think makes the US better than the rest of the world. Thus, I expect Americans to defend their positive thinking tooth and nail, no matter how little it has to do with reality.
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» RE: Positive
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: Positive
Posted by: susanh
» Give me the Positive Thinking. I'll take it over the alternative any day,
Posted by: avidAmerican
» RE: Positive
Posted by: kahuna_2bears
» RE: Positive
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: Positive
Posted by: Basenjis
» Thoughts are not things. They are thoughts
Posted by: pancakebunny
» RE: Thoughts are not things. They are thoughts
Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: Thoughts are not things. They are thoughts
Posted by: Old Me
» RE: Positive. Ah, the kool-aid drinkers rise!
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Positive. Ah, the kool-aid drinkers rise!
Posted by: Cybershaman
» James Ray's sweat lodge in Sedona
Posted by: Earon
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Posted by: khaleesi on Oct 10, 2009 3:49 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First, regardless of what happens being negative never makes anything better. Does it help to get upset when you wreck your car? No, it just makes you feel terrible. You just have to deal with the problem, and if you can control yourself and stay positive the situation is alot more pleasant. You can apply this to any event in your life. Second, everything in life- the good and the bad- is an experience. Once you can get past the idea of JUDGING an experience and you can apprecaite the experience as an experience you will be enlightened. This mentality that we must be angry to get things done or change the world is typical for the Judeo-Christian society that seeks to always think of life in its present form as less than perfect. That is why they aim to go to 'heaven'. This mindset unfortunately has tainted all of American society. For everyone who does not agree with me- forget Oprah and Dr. Phil- go read a book. It is called The Art of Happiness and it is written by His Holiness the Dalai Lama. I have compassion for all of those who are trapped in a negative state of mind. I hope your lives will be happy after reading this book.
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» The Power of Positive Thinking is exactly what this country needs right now,
Posted by: avidAmerican
» Not the Rich
Posted by: Hiroak
» Being negative DOES accomplish things.
Posted by: heid
» We need realism, not positive thinking
Posted by: bonapartist
» You are *so* missing the point
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: You are *so* missing the point. Not according to my life experience, she isn't.
Posted by: Beck
» RE: You are *so* missing the point. Not according to my life experience, she isn't.
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» NO. YOU are missing the point.
Posted by: nha16
» RE: NO. YOU are missing the point.
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: Being negative DOES accomplish things. Thank you!
Posted by: Beck
» RE: Being negative DOES accomplish things.
Posted by: Old Me
» It's Not All About HOW YOU FEEL!
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» RE: It's Not All About HOW YOU FEEL!
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: I coud not disagree more. I think you greatly misunderstood. Repression leads to deep problems
Posted by: Beck
» all of this is suffering
Posted by: inverse_agonist
» RE: all of this is suffering
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: all of this is suffering
Posted by: inverse_agonist
» So starving third world peasants and proles should appreciate their experience?
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
» Are you saying life in its present form is perfect?
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
» You totally don't get the Dalai Lama
Posted by: jcalhoun
» RE: I coud not disagree more... because you insist on denying that you're an animal
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: I coud not disagree more... because you insist on denying that you're an animal
Posted by: Earon
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Posted by: marxalot on Oct 10, 2009 4:41 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» YEs, every Buddhist book I've read goes into the importance of facing true feelings, not adding
Posted by: Beck
» Buddhists don't play politics like you do.
Posted by: Benn_Miller
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Posted by: Farmertim on Oct 10, 2009 5:07 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Don't show up on time, no prudent or measured thought, just pray on it and if you miss an appointment or what most would consider a considerate gesture in our society...oh, God had other plans for me today....said with a blank smile on their face.
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» RE: and when positive thinking
Posted by: babzter
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Posted by: bonapartist on Oct 10, 2009 5:23 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are already fed truckloads of positive thinking, so much in fact that it became a mantra to replace action. Majority of issues in one's life will require action, with or without positive thinking.
To resolve a problem one first must admit that there is a problem. The positive thinking culture is busy denying that there is a problem and thus the issue remains unsolved.
You can see the sample in current economic downfall, no need to implement a real reform. Just patch up and hope for the best, think positive and continue business as usual.
Scepticism, realism, rationalism, cynicism, pessimism etc are all venues of thinking that can and are useful in certain conditions. The current TV culture discarded them in favor of simplistic think pink attitude.
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» RE: Yes, and we don't have problems any more
Posted by: outsideagitator
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Posted by: ecofriendlynet on Oct 10, 2009 5:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The superficial view of "Positive Thinking" is what is prevalent. Just like most Christianity is so unlike Christ. Surface stuff.
Positive Thinking is a state of heart/mind which remembrance of and reliance on our Highest Self (God, Beloved, Christ, Ezad, etc.,) through all the good and crappy times with the objective of eventual liberation from duality.
We have to do our best, cast our net, do our part. Actions and thought work together. This is obvious.
Getting a disease sucks and the mindless parroting of the "positive thinking" crowd, even worse.
A disease is shitty but also an opportunity for a lot of inner growth and compassion.
It's infinitely better to hope for the best than to fear the worst -- Meher Baba
Give up all forms of parrotry. Start practicing whatever you truly feel to be true and justly to be just. -- Meher Baba
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» RE: Parroty
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
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Posted by: Mimi on Oct 10, 2009 5:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The issue is thinking versus ACTION, the delusion that "I think, therefore IT IS." That thinking something is so makes it so. It's called psychosis.
Those who take the quest for human happiness seriously recognize that taking positive ACTION to right the world's wrongs and injustices leads to authentic happiness, rather than the delusional "think it and it will happen" positive thinking Ehrenreich objects to.
I wish that Ehrenreich had built on one of her best books, Dancing in the Streets: A History of Collective Joy, and focused on the difference between collective action to secure happiness and well-being for all, versus delusional, inner individual thought processes that produce the terrifying and absurd human condition of everyone wearing smiley faces while the world heaves and burns.
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» "Positive Thinking vs Positive Action" Perfect!
Posted by: nha16
» Also, positive thinking is popular because it's the lazy ass alternative to positive action.
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
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Posted by: SekhmetsatRa on Oct 10, 2009 5:47 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Give me negativity any day
Posted by: Trixietheduck
» Agreed
Posted by: BlueTigress
» Exactly right. Traits as significant as emotions evolved to serve a function.
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
» RE: Give me negativity any day
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» Feelings as long as authentic and genuine need to be expressed
Posted by: RR#1
» RE: Give me negativity any day
Posted by: shelley589
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Posted by: souffrantfleur on Oct 10, 2009 5:49 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Trixietheduck on Oct 10, 2009 5:52 AM
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» Militant gratitude and "radical forgiveness".
Posted by: Beck
» RE: Militant gratitude and "radical forgiveness".
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» Thanks for the laugh!
Posted by: CV
» It sounds like she has obsessive-compulsive disorder.
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
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Posted by: drricklippin on Oct 10, 2009 6:14 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We will grow up someday
Maybe we have entered our painful but necessary adolescence?
Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton,Pa
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» RE: We Are A Young and Immature Nation
Posted by: nha16
» RE: We Are A Young and Immature Nation
Posted by: theblackgeorgecarlin
» RE: Enough with the "Young Nation" nonsense
Posted by: improperly_sedated
» Growing up requires pain and bad experiences.
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
» The whole time we lived in Germany, I thought, "We Americans are adolescents compared to this".
Posted by: Beck
» RE: The whole time we lived in Germany, I thought, "We Americans are adolescents compared to this".
Posted by: improperly_sedated
» RE: The whole time we lived in Germany, I thought, "We Americans are adolescents compared to this".
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: saquisili on Oct 10, 2009 6:19 AM
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Posted by: anok on Oct 10, 2009 6:32 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People who deal with situations by ignoring it will do that regardless of the positiveness or negativeness of their thought process.
Nor does being positive immediately equate to being nauseatingly happy or chipper. For example: One who has lost their job, and is facing a hard road ahead can think positively by simply saying "We WILL get through this." That's a positive thought, leading to a positive action. It is neither ignorant, nor blind of the facts.
Anyone can take any ideology and go too far with it. However our outlook on life, and our immediate emotions can be and are affected by how we react to them.
Ever make yourself cry by thinking about something sad? Ever get yourself out of a funk by thinking about something enjoyable, or fun?
There you have it, it's just that simple. It's not easy, just simple.
Take whatever time you need to mourn your losses, experience your anger, grief or whathaveyou and then move on. It does you no good to sit around moping about it. It also makes you the type of person that others don't want to be around much, either.
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Posted by: chariotdrvr14 on Oct 10, 2009 6:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But time has tempered my pessimism.
There's a denialism in that which isn't so much positive thinking as much as taking a leap of faith into the realm of self serving fantasy.
That doesn't mean that visualizing what you want and initiating activity to acheive is delusional.
I do remember in my early 20's I was working at a healthfood mexican food restaurant, a chain called The Good Earth and we were trying to organize an alternate food workers' union. The CEO came in and gave us this song and dance about how our serving 'healthy positive food was a service to humanity and a positive action...but that people who wanted unions were negative thinkers who weren't thinking of anyone but themselves'...something to that effect.
I walked out in the middle of that one.
Yeah, I know how new age capitalists use this to any advantage they can, for any justification they want.
And that how 'The Secret' fad... is about taking what a very old spiritual concept and selling it by focusing on selfish materialist motivations. This is my fundamental disagreement with new agers.
But I do think that there are places and instances where positive thinking is both useful and necessary. I would never embrace an illness like cancer and couldn't even imagine any reason to do so. But stressing and bemoaning the fact would never help either. You do have come to a point of acceptance with any situation before you can deal effectively with it.
Positivism...negativism... the point is in never becoming out of balance by embracing the extremes.
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Posted by: drricklippin on Oct 10, 2009 6:50 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ask those who wrote about concentration camp experiences about not giving in to pessimism or hopelessness.
Of course reality tells us all the time to be pessimistic but we must rail against that and live our lives always "as if" things will be ok.
This is our obligation.
Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton,Pa
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» So....
Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: So....
Posted by: drricklippin
» So we the people slaughtered in the camps not optimistic enough?
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
» RE: So we the people slaughtered in the camps not optimistic enough?
Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: Optimism Is......
Posted by: DaBear
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Posted by: loneswaneast on Oct 10, 2009 6:52 AM
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Posted by: Gravitas on Oct 10, 2009 6:56 AM
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However, the concept that thoughts can shape outside reality is in many of the great spiritual traditions of the world. I like what the mystic Edgar Cayce said about "mind being the builder." He said thoughts create reality BUT it was far more complicated than just making out a wish list. Thoughts had to be couple with action, principles had to be lived, intentions had to be defended with acts of faith. It is hard work, not just magic wishes.
It is very sad that this essential spiritual concept has been watered down and commercialized. But it is not all or nothing. Few on this board would reject nutrition just because there are charlatans with miracle diets overstating their case. We don't need to reject a powerful tool to reshape reality just because spiritual snakeoil salesmen exist!
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» RE: Mind is the Builder
Posted by: babzter
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Posted by: melpol on Oct 10, 2009 6:57 AM
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» RE: Think Realistically
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Posted by: americansheep on Oct 10, 2009 7:03 AM
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Posted by: nha16 on Oct 10, 2009 7:04 AM
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I've always suspected a certain behind the scenes, conscious promotion of these "positive thinking" ideas as a means of control. Society needs people who see clearly and aren't afraid to confront the bad things in this world. They serve as an early warning system to the rest of the clan, and deserve respect, not ridicule. If it could be tested, I'll bet we could trace our current conundrum to the broad, conscious application of these ridiculous ideas.
I believe that this is the main reason people generally scorn those in need, and protect the wealthy in our society. They know if they frame that dollar bill and smile on it each day with positive thoughts of abundance, they too will someday draw that wealth to themselves and be protected by the same system that today victimizes them.
If we can call out this nonsense in any meaningful way, we may have a chance to recover. I hope Ehrenreich's book breaks the decades-old ice on this subject. It really could be our path back to reality.
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Posted by: troubleinmind254 on Oct 10, 2009 7:16 AM
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Just like the financial crisis, the wars in Irpakanistan, the rosy self-denial of our personal interactions and public policy can case more harm than good.
Whats the old cliche and correct if I'm wrong "Err of the side of caution" ?
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Posted by: JenniferBedingfield on Oct 10, 2009 7:19 AM
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Another example is the way Obama is poorly handling the economic crisis. As usual, the corporate media lies about the economy getting better when nothing could be farther from the truth. The economy getting better is an illusion. Bailing out Wall $treet has done nothing to ease the pain and suffering of homeowners who actually needed assistance. And what about slowing down the shipping of jobs overseas? There are no policies being planned on that to the best of my knowledge and the unemployment rate keeps going up and even amongst those who are still employed there are those who face more cuts in wages and/or benefits. Better for companies to slit their wrist and screw the employees and appease those crooked stockholders isn't it?
And here's my favorite example. Everyone screams about race and yet very few people acknowledge that the "Patriot" Act is the big gorilla sitting in the room. Without that bloody act, most of the racial profiling we're seeing today wouldn't exist. I don't see anything positive for minorities trying to make it through this bloody dog eat dog society when racial profiling is persecuting them the most.
We can have positive thinking but too much blissful ignorance is dangerous and the results are showing.
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» RE: There's positive thinking and then there blissfully ignorant thinking.
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: There's positive thinking and then there blissfully ignorant thinking.
Posted by: JenniferBedingfield
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Posted by: curiousdwk on Oct 10, 2009 7:19 AM
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» RE: How About The Secret?
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» RE: How About The Secret?
Posted by: wrinklemomma
» RE: How About The Secret? Her book devotes sections to The Secret
Posted by: improperly_sedated
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Posted by: stormchilde1975 on Oct 10, 2009 7:22 AM
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» RE: Can we revive Stoicism?
Posted by: improperly_sedated
» Stoicism preaches self reliance...
Posted by: Ayla87
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Posted by: babzter on Oct 10, 2009 7:23 AM
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I remember being told "What you can conceive and believe, you will achieve." (Nightingale??) What a gross deception of real life.
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Posted by: littlepitcher on Oct 10, 2009 8:14 AM
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Emotions create hormonal changes. Manipulating our emotional states to keep healthy is a must. Viewing bad times as opportunities to help our fellow human sufferers helps us, as a group, improve the conditions of our race one-on-one, and as a group.
Manipulations of "positivity" by sales and customer service supervisors, and by anti-organizational goons, are just profitability moves which benefit the company and customer but do little for the non-commissioned worker.
Despite this, I've admired and read Ehrenreich for 30 years, and hope sincerely that her health improves. She might consider looking into my personal suspicion that mastectomies are the new unnecessary hysterectomy, a profit maker for misogynist medical practitioners and, with briberies of underpaid cytotechnologists, an easy way for husbands to dispose of wives, or for the system to dispose of unwanted activists.
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» RE: steering clear of depression
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: steering clear of depression
Posted by: Basenjis
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Posted by: metamind on Oct 10, 2009 8:23 AM
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This kind of thinking keeps us from changing a DYSFUNCTIONAL system. It puts all the responsibility on the individual and ignores how the system itself has failed. Only YOU can fail with this philosophy. Nobody else can do anything wrong.
The truth is that WE THE PEOPLE need to come together and change our political and economic systems. Big changes are needed and as long as people believe "it's my fault" they won't come together and change the systems.
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» And yet, you've missed the point.
Posted by: anok
» RE: This positive thinking nonsense has kept us from dealing with problems
Posted by: wrinklemomma
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Posted by: johnyradio on Oct 10, 2009 8:38 AM
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"Psychological factors can predict the response to primary chemotherapy in patients with locally advanced breast cancer."
Institute of Rehabilitation, University of Hull
"Optimistic women have a lower risk of developing heart disease or dying from any cause compared to pessimistic women, according to research reported in Circulation: Journal of the American Heart Association."
University of Pittsburgh
"stress and emotion appear to have important implications for the initiation or progression of cancer, HIV, cardiovascular disease, and other illnesses."
Annual Review of Psychology
"Various psychosocial factors, particularly cancer-related concerns and depression, appear to be related to preoperative and postoperative VEGF level in patients with newly diagnosed colorectal cancer."
Academic Surgical Unit, Cancer Division, University of Hull, UK
"Relaxation training and guided imagery beneficially altered putative anti-cancer host defences during and after multimodality therapy."
United Lincolnshire Hospitals NHS Trust, United Kingdom.
"Professor Leslie Walker, a director of the Institute of Rehabilitation at Hull University, has just begun the largest ever trial into the impact of thought processes on the body's ability to fight cancer."
Three-year trial, involving 180 bowel-cancer patients.
Approaching life with optimism and confidence is not denial. As Ben Franklin said, “Expect the best. Prepare for the worst." Expecting the best does not mean closing one's eyes to reality.
It's a big stretch for Ms. E to equate her experience with cancer with the economic crisis.
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Posted by: anok on Oct 10, 2009 8:56 AM
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Positive thinking: "I have cancer, it sucks, I am scared. But I have a good doctor, and I will get through this."
Negative thinking: "I have cancer, I will never overcome it no matter what happens. I might as well give up and die now."
See the difference?
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» RE: I continue to see responses that confuse the matter.
Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: I continue to see responses that confuse the matter. Et tu, anok?
Posted by: DaBear
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Posted by: gradlady on Oct 10, 2009 9:02 AM
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» "Rage" May Be A Good Thing
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Posted by: reykr on Oct 10, 2009 9:39 AM
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Some time, around 1950, a minister named Norman Vincent Peale wrote a book titled, "The Power Of Positive Thinking."
In 1952, the Republicans had a "positive thinking" slogan about Eisenhower, their Presidential candidate that year. It was this: "I like Ike." He was nicknamed "Mr. Clean," by The Democrats, because he had no political record for them to criticize.
Adlai Stevenson, the Democratic candidate, thought the Biblical Epistles of the Apostle Paul were more relevant to Christianity than "Positive Thinking" was. Stevenson once quipped, "I find Paul appealing, and Peale appalling."
That was an example of the "contrapuntal" comments that speechwriter Ted Sorenson often put into President Kennedy's speeches. For example, in one of his speeches, Kennedy said, "We must not negotiate from fear, but we must not fear to negotiate."
My Blog's URL is:
http://reykr.livejournal.com/
Jerry Baker
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Posted by: suetiggers on Oct 10, 2009 9:56 AM
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Grumps and curmudgeons unite....we at least know what's really happening. Rome is burning and this is what has been passed to our new leader.
Hope he isn't too cheery. an old woman
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» RE: LONG OVERDUE, THANKS BARBARA
Posted by: shelley589
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Posted by: badkitty on Oct 10, 2009 10:31 AM
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Posted by: Rusty Shackleford on Oct 10, 2009 11:58 AM
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There's absolutely nothing wrong with rational thinking and being right in the middle there.
Positive thinking says: I WILL get through this crisis.
Negative thinking says: I WON'T get through this crisis.
Both sides seem absolutely certain about their fate, when, in reality, neither one really KNOWS what's going to happen.
There's nothing wrong with saying:
I DON'T KNOW what's going to happen in this crisis.
People prefer to take one side or the other because there's something far more frightening than anything else to them, and that's the fact that THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.
They would rather live in delusion, (positive or negative), than simply admit that they don't know, and be content to let things run their course.
Positive thinking is especially abhorrent because it tends to claim that one's destiny is completely within one's own control.
Things are determined by chance and probability. On THAT, can you base your views. NOT on dead certainty, positive or negative.
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Posted by: willymack on Oct 10, 2009 1:04 PM
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The Rodney Dangerfiels school of thought may be at work here:
Hey, I had my identity stolen last month. A week ago, the thief called begging me to take it back. No respect.
In my opinion, a change in the economic order may be happening.
The change is viewed by most of us as a threat to our lives as we know them, but who knows? It may be a BENEFICIAL change. Then again.....
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Posted by: ranger1 on Oct 10, 2009 1:18 PM
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People will ask me how am I doing.
My response:
"It's just another day in paradise ...except for the Bush/Obama wars, corporate malfeasance, neoliberal trade policies, lying scheming mortgage loan lenders, securitizing bankers who sold AAA rated crap to my pension plan, AAA crap converted to AAA gold by security ratings agencies, 42,000 corporate lobbyists in Washington etc, etc,,,,other than that, it's all good.
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Posted by: PaulK on Oct 10, 2009 1:54 PM
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200 years ago 1 in 1800 people got cancer. Our children will probably reach 1 in 2 people.
The causes of cancer are related to corporations making a penny and stealing our health. The food is drained of natural nutrients and is stuffed with carcinogenic chemicals that you don't taste. The stuff under your sink is carcinogenic too. You put carcinogens on your skin.
How are we going to get together..
On the Internet of course. We're going to have to develop a system to successfully screen out most or all of the paid pro-carcinogen boiler room bloggers. That's the next step, and we're not completely stupid, you know. After that we'll organize faster and better.
..and do something about it?
I expect a general movement toward third-party non-governmental certification. Is a co-op or a company a good corporate citizen or no? The good ones band together in an economic (and somewhat political?) union and lock out the others from our community. The baddies can always go off and murder the dwindling pool of citizens that still trust them.
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Posted by: blurider on Oct 10, 2009 3:14 PM
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Have you ever watched an injured animal licking a wound and observed that it appeared in time to aid the healing? Have you thought that the animal couldn't consciously 'know' that the licking action might help? Like it or not, there's 'magic' involved. Not a 'magic' trick as we've come to think of it nor a religious epiphany but simply a part of reality that we haven't always understood. That animal and his earliest ancestors have intuitively 'known' for centuries that he was both increasing the blood flow and circulation to the injury and directing his own mental energy toward the wound and it's healing. Such 'knowledge' seems to have been passed in his DNA more than by example or 'discovery'.
While dogs have licked their wounds since pre-historic times, modern medicine has only recently accepted that our minds are capable of healing or aiding the healing of, our bodies.
As always, 'magic' is simply something we don't, yet understand.
Many years ago in pre-pubescence, I had my first experience of solving my daily, mundane problems in my dreams. At first I accepted it as mystical but certainly useful and a 'gift'. Since - many decades later, I have realized that it's just my subconscious mind working overtime while my body and my conscious mind, rest. The 'practice' works as well for the adult, more 'rational' me as it did for the young, 'mystical' me but I've come to accept that I can't control it through any rational procedure, ritual or discipline beyond mere documentation - sketching and writing notes as I begin my morning in the conscious world. There are problems that can be solved rationally during my waking hours while some problems are more difficult and may not lend themselves to any solution. Then there are those which seemingly, may be solved only by my subconscious while I sleep.
After years of 'trying' I've come to accept that I have little control except to cultivate the habits of a visionalry artist and to accept and to 'keep' through my practice. all the gifts of my dreams - some just visual material for new art, some the solution to problems that apply to other, more mundane aspects of my life - all useful and all gifts from the very edges of the realms of 'magic'.
From my experience in my reality as both a rational man who deals with the practical aspects of business and the mystical aspects of creativity, I'd have to say tha Barbara Ehrenreich is both right and wrong! She is quite right that positive thinking (magical thinking) will neither balance your checkbook nor address our economic issues. She couldn't be more correct in pointing out how some have been manipulated and misled by a kind of mass hysteria and how counterintuitive it is to mix (fake) spirituality with materialism and greed
I will grant too, that most if not all, of what she might be mistaken about, science hasn't yet discovered but all the same I'm convinced from my own experience that there exists a space in which she is very likely, very badly, mistaken!
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Posted by: johnyradio on Oct 10, 2009 5:17 PM
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the comments in this thread are all over the map, because i think Ms. E's premise is not legitimate.
there's mounting scientific indication that emotions affect physical health (see my links above to research studies). which has NOTHING to do with Amway, Wall Street, or the Bible.
her position speaks neither to the Left nor to the Right, she's just attempting to rouse the emotions of both.
i'm sure she'll sell some books.
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» Looked at her book yesterday and she cites 2 studies that show positive cancer patients do worse
Posted by: Beck
» Positive cancer patient, eh?
Posted by: Benn_Miller
» RE: NOT CALLED FOR
Posted by: improperly_sedated
» You're right. I think I'll put the political gun down here.
Posted by: Benn_Miller
» A Very Weak Metaphor
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» RE: A Very Weak Metaphor
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: Angela Flynn on Oct 10, 2009 6:56 PM
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This is what Ehrenreich is lamenting. In irrational positive thinking there is a disconnect with reality and then there is the corresponding lack of taking action to enact needed change. This is a corporate practice. Rather than face the harm done by business practices the strategy is to demonize/ridicule those who draw attention to and try to change them.
Everything is not fine. We are facing the most dire environmental crisis in human history. The irrational positive thinkers insist we do nothing. The rational positive thinkers are creating the change we need, but they are hindered every step of the way by the irrational positive thinkers. We need to wake them up out of their dream. It is a dream that is turning the world into a nightmare.
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Posted by: Romantic Violence on Oct 10, 2009 7:18 PM
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FTW
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Posted by: crmcvin on Oct 10, 2009 8:49 PM
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» RE: the optimism trap
Posted by: Romantic Violence
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Posted by: Benn_Miller on Oct 11, 2009 6:50 AM
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