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The Economic Revolution Is Already Happening -- It's Just Not on Wall St.

By Maria Armoudian, AlterNet. Posted October 7, 2009.


Thousands of alternatives to the punishing corporate model have sprouted up across the US, building up an alternative economy as Wall St. crumbles.

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America is in the midst of a new revolution. But this revolution is quiet, incremental, nonviolent and traveling beneath the mainstream media's radar.

The new American revolution challenges the current notions of dog-eat-dog capitalism -- through the building of a parallel economic system that shares, co-operates, empowers and benefits fellow workers and community members.

Over the past few decades, thousands of alternatives to the standard, top-down corporate model have sprouted up -- worker-owned companies and co-operatives, neighborhood corporations and trusts, community-owned technology centers and municipally owned enterprises.

In fact, today, involvement in these alternative models of business outnumber union membership as the means by which private-sector workers and community members are taking their economics into their own hands. The story is revealed in the 4-year-old book, America Beyond Capitalism, written by University of Maryland political science professor Gar Alperovitz.

Maria Armoudian: How big is this economic movement in the United States?

Gar Alperovitz: It's a huge development. But the president doesn't cover it, and the press, on the surface, is not aware of it.

At the grassroots level, there is a lot of activity that is changing the ownership of wealth and making it benefit neighborhoods, workers, cities and communities, at large. There are 11,000 worker-owned companies in the United States, and more people involved in them than are members of unions in the private sector. There are also 120 million Americans who are members of co-operatives -- a huge number, about a third of the population.

About 20 percent or 22 percent of our energy is done under public utilities of one kind or another. There are another 4,000 or 5,000 neighborhood corporations, in which neighborhoods own productive wealth to benefit the neighborhood. Much of that is related to housing and land development, but also stores, businesses and factories.

One estimate is that there are 4,500 of these. One, called Newark New Communities, does several million dollars a year in business and pours profits back into helping service the neighborhood -- health care and nutrition, education and jobs. So when you really begin to take the lid off of what is emerging in society, there are many forms of decentralized public ownership, social ownership or democratized wealth.

MA: Are there also new developments on the municipal level?

GA: Yes, because of fiscal crises, many cities, even under Republican mayors, are putting cities into enterprises. It was once called municipal socialism, but Republicans call it the "enterprising city," and it includes development of [municipally owned] cable television, Internet services, land and hotels.

Many cities are capturing methane from garbage areas and using it to produce electricity, create jobs and make money. They're dealing with greenhouse gases as an enterprise.

On a larger, regional scale, the Tennessee Valley Authority is a gigantic, ecological operation that controls the river systems and is an energy system. On the state level, Alaska derives a great deal of money from its energy resources, oil. It captures the profits and pays dividends to every Alaskan as a right. In the year 2000, every person in Alaska, as a legal right, received $2,000 [through this process]. So a family of five [together receive] $10,000.

MA: Worker-owned cooperative seem to be the most progressive and democratic models. They're usually nonprofit with profit circulating back to workers and communities, and they practice democracy in the workplace -- one person, one vote. How would you compare this model with other models?

GA: The one-person-one-vote worker co-operatives in the United States are the most democratic, advanced and ideal. But they number at about 500 maximum, maybe 1,000. These co-ops are on the cutting edge of the democratization process and where the learning will be taking place for the rest of the movements. People are experimenting with full democracy and full equality.

Of course, many co-ops are not that kind -- they don't have equal pay and have other differentials. And most of the [for-profit] worker-owned companies in the United States are employee stock-ownership plans, or ESOPs. In many cases, they are not democratic, and have a long way to go.

But as workers get more ownership, they demand more control. And as they participate more, they gain productivity and profits. So a key question is: How do we begin to democratize what is already owned? That is the likely trend.

MA: How might the American models compare to the giant cooperative in the Basque region of Spain -- Mondragon?

GA: Mondragon has over 100,000 workers in a very complicated group of 100 or more integrated co-ops. They pay back loans to a central fund and then build more co-ops in an integrated fashion. In 90 percent of them, the ratios of pay from top to bottom are 4 to 1. In others, it's 9 to 1. Compare that with American corporations, which are 200 or 300 to 1.

These co-ops are highly productive and state of the art with advanced technology, not your corner kind of tiny co-op. In the city of Cleveland, some groups are creating a large-scale Mondragon-type of cooperative. It will include a worker-owned laundry, with high-tech, green advanced technology, a solar-installation cooperative company, a land trust with a large-scale industrial-scale greenhouse and solar and geothermal heating.

They're going online over the next year and will produce 2,000-3,000 heads of lettuce each day. It's linked to the public purchasing of hospitals and universities, which provide some of the contracts for food and laundry. The model makes green jobs and green ownership and shows that worker ownership is practical.

MA: There are advocates who believe that building these types of cooperatives are the single most important form of activism that people can do. Do you agree?

GA: Ultimately there needs to be systemic change. But it is very important, and it's one thing that can be contributed. At this point, two central principles are developing in these "schools of democracy" -- they are changing who gets to own and benefit from capital, and they are changing the participatory process.

And in addition to cooperatives, neighborhood corporations and organizations, cities and land trusts, state pension funds are being used in [socially responsible] ways. These are very American means of decentralizing ownership of productive wealth -- as well as some central forms. We see a picture emerging of an America that is beyond capitalism. These [activities] give us a possible model.

If we build on what we are already doing, make it part of a political program and develop it, we could create something that is far better than what we now have and better than traditional socialist models.

It's time for people working in these sectors of cooperatives, worker ownership, land trusts, neighborhood corporations to begin calling meetings, share what they've learned and establish networks. In many cases they don't do this. People in the specific communities don't even know how much is going on.

Other interesting things are happening in Virginia, the District of Columbia and Maryland where, like in the '60s, people are meeting, reading, thinking and taking action from that. They are staging "action book clubs," where they read a political book and discuss, "What can we do in the direction of building something for the long haul?"

So if you don't like capitalism or state socialism, what do you want? What is your vision, your knowledge and theory? It's time for us to do that again.

MA: Do you have a sense of how this economic movement is impacting our current political and economic system?

GA: It's like what happened with the New Deal and the civil rights movement. A good [part] of the New Deal [began] as experiments of the '20s and '10s. But when the time was right, they became national.

Similarly, in the civil rights movement, the real heroes were those who laid the groundwork in the 1930s and '40s for what came next. That's what is happening at the grassroots level, economically. The most important things pertain to ownership of capital, wealth and assets.

Today, the top 1 percent owns almost 50 percent of the investment capital. The alternative state socialist idea was that the government should own it, but that had real problems with bureaucracy, centralization of power and so forth.

There is another alternative, which is what is emerging now. They are old historic ideas. But just over the last 30 years, these 11,000 companies that are substantially owned by workers have [emerged] from ground zero.

MA: So this movement has increased at a pretty rapid pace since the 1970s?

GA: Yes, amazing, and no coverage of it. Almost at the same pace at which the negatives have gone down, you're seeing the rise of these kinds of companies. They have many trial-and-error-related problems, but on the whole, they're moving towards greater ownership and democratization. They are very good for communities and workers. Because they are owned by the workers, they do not get up and run to get cheaper labor sources, so they keep jobs in local communities.

MA: Some of these employee-owned companies have not performed well -- financially or for their employees. United Airlines was one example of pretty dismal results. How are the others doing?

GA: It's important to know that United is a case study in what you shouldn't do. It was done in the midst of a strike in a very large corporation. That's not the best place to do worker ownership.

Most of the ones that work well are under 1,000 employees. United has numerous reasons why it failed, really, without worker ownership. On balance, the worker-ownership companies, particularly when there's good training, are more profitable; they have higher productivity; better pensions and better working conditions.

So on almost every indicator they are unquestionably equal or better than comparable firms of the same kind in the same field. It's not surprising, because people who have a stake in what they're doing tend to do better at it.

MA: In the face of globalization, how do these alternatives hold up?

GA: I think the globalization argument has been trumpeted in the press. They talk about manufacturing jobs being stolen, etc. That is true. But it is also the case that 90 percent of the American workforce is not involved in manufacturing, and over the next 15 years it'll be 5 percent. That's the trend.

What's really happening is within cities. This is a service economy and a trade, retail and wholesale economy -- that's the real action. It has gone from 40 percent of employment within cities to 50 percent and now closer to 60 percent. There are a lot of things people can do with that.

So the bogeyman of globalization is something we can challenge with stopping the so-called free-trade policies. But there's also a lot that can be done locally and not be put off by the fact that the press concentrates on these scare stories.

MA: You have been somewhat dismissive about the left's emphasis on messaging, ostensibly suggesting that what makes change are serious ideas and a coherent and powerful understanding of what makes sense. Can you elaborate on that?

GA: I don't disagree with better language, political rhetoric and framing. But that's often used as a substitute for programs that are out of date or for not thinking through alternatives.

So if a central issue is how to change the economy's organization, that's not a matter of framing. It's a matter of building up a vision and organizing a long-term strategy.

The framing argument can be positive, but it can also stand in the way of people rolling up their sleeves and getting down to work for the long haul.

MA: Are the alternative models being taught in the business schools yet? If not, how can people learn alternatives to the dominant corporate models?

GA: They aren't being taught yet, although in Cleveland, one of the business schools is beginning to design a course.

We are seeing business schools working on "social enterprise," which is another form of democratized wealth ownership, in this case, usually a nonprofit corporation making money for a public service.

For instance, in Seattle, there is Pioneer Services, which began as a drug-rehabilitation nonprofit. It began training people who had gone through the rehabilitation program, then produced some businesses so they can do their training on the job. They began making money in the businesses to finance their whole program.

I think they're a scale of about $60 million now. It went from 1 percent profits and 99 percent grants to almost 99 percent profits, used for public purposes.

This is now being developed in other parts of the country. Some of the business schools, Harvard and Yale, are teaching these principles in business school, and I think we're going to see them begin moving into the co-op area as more experience develops on the ground.

For people who are interested in doing this, www.community-wealth.org is a tool. There are people who are doing it and help others. That's a major change historically, upon which I think we can really build.

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Maria Armoudian is a Commissioner at the City of Los Angeles and Producer and On-Air Host at KPFK radio station. Her site is Armoudian.com.

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This article shows what we can do to create our own communities
Posted by: djnoll on Oct 7, 2009 3:04 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a doctoral student studying public policy, I have been focusing on sustainable governance and civic participation. This article addresses the importance of such actions. When communities take back their own economic survival, they become stronger and more capable of working to solve a variety of issues at the local level, rather than wait on the federal government to do it for them.

As I journey to DC later this month, I will talk with people about what they can do in their own communities to stand up for themselves and their communities. I will suggest this book, along with ideas that will allow them to create more sustainable communities where the economics of corporations will not dictate their community policies because they are the corporations.

Please join me in getting this message out: We The American People can take back our communities and make them economically sound and thriving. We do not need large corporations or predator banks to help us survive, nearly as much as we need each other standing side-by-side. This article discusses how communities are doing this, and I hope that I can help others to see it is possible in their communities.

Let Freedom Ring.Community

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You're Missing Two Very Important Points
Posted by: pinnacle on Oct 7, 2009 3:59 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While lots of the ideas discussed are good and worthy of study, you have missed two things that are vital to the discussion and to the economic health of the country. First, employee owned companies, like our own government, will never function as true democracies, i.e. one person, one vote. There will be a leader or leaders for the organization that the "stockholders" elect or hire, and which they can remove from office by a plurality of individual votes or something like that. In the meantime, those officals will "run" the organization. Secondly, this country will never maintain any semblance of the "lifestyle to which we have become accustomed" without regaining our manufacturing past. Flipping burgers or emptying trashcans in the community park just won't cut it!

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» Good Point Posted by: smf1403
You're Missing Two Very Important Points
Posted by: pinnacle on Oct 7, 2009 3:59 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While lots of the ideas discussed are good and worthy of study, you have missed two things that are vital to the discussion and to the economic health of the country. First, employee owned companies, like our own government, will never function as true democracies, i.e. one person, one vote. There will be a leader or leaders for the organization that the "stockholders" elect or hire, and which they can remove from office by a plurality of individual votes or something like that. In the meantime, those officals will "run" the organization. Secondly, this country will never maintain any semblance of the "lifestyle to which we have become accustomed" without regaining our manufacturing past. Flipping burgers or emptying trashcans in the community park just won't cut it!

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Going Green
Posted by: CTC123 on Oct 7, 2009 5:08 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Consider the Connection to:
The Economic Pyramid
There are 2 sides to the Economic Pyramid
NEGATIVE (-) & POSITIVE (+)
There are numerouse alternative cources of ACTION for going green (+).
(-)__R__(+) The alternative cources of ACTION
are ours.
Our health and planet are in the balance.
Example: WWW.carrotmob.org
Search 4 me:
CTC123GREEN

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Alternet thank you for this positive article
Posted by: smf1403 on Oct 7, 2009 6:27 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thank you, Alternet, this is the type of news that is helpful as opposed to your latest diversional rants about Republicans. We know they are bad so forget about them.

These informational interviews and articles on social change are progressive and empowering. This is what we expect to see from Alternet.

Great job on the interview, Maria, with Gar Alperovitz. Going to check the book out at the library.

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Economic Revolution.........
Posted by: Spiritgirl on Oct 7, 2009 7:54 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While I think it's a wonderful thing that local economies are taking root, I hope that with the coming of OIL going off of the dollar that they will be able to continue. The reason that it's not covered is that the MSM once again refuses to acknowledge it as a reality! You know "if we as the purveyors of "truth" don't acknowledge it it doesn't exist"!

The really sad part is that others in this nation won't know about it, or get a chance to put it into use in their communities. And things have only begun to get tough for Americans....

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» Take back MSM/PBS/NPR Posted by: weathered
About time
Posted by: azbeener on Oct 7, 2009 8:13 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Its about time. Until the sheeple stand up and say ENOUGH they will just keep running over the top of us!

Jess
Ultimate Anonymity

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I'm all In Favour Of Small Companies That Are Owned By Their Workers
Posted by: tony_opmoc on Oct 7, 2009 9:11 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But some of the numbers here don't make a lot of sense

"There are 11,000 worker-owned companies in the United States, and more people involved in them than are members of unions in the private sector."

11,000 is a piddlingly small number for a population of 300M.

"There are also 120 million Americans who are members of co-operatives -- a huge number, about a third of the population."

I think this should read "U.S. cooperatives serve some 120 million members, or 4 in 10 Americans" which means something completely different to that implied.

Maybe there is something I'm not understanding here, but here are the latest figures I've found for the UK - which are about two years old...

"Last year saw an increase of 2.9% in the number of UK businesses, making a total of 4.5m enterprises. Of those, 99.3% were made up of firms with fewer than 50 employees.

The figures also showed that small businesses accounted for 47% of all UK employment and nearly 40% of turnover.

Sole traders make up 73% of all UK businesses, according to the figures – there are 3.3m self-employed owner-managers with no employees, turning over an estimated £208bn per year."

Many comments on Alternet, seem to imply that most Americans work for large corporations. Working for a large corporation is much the same as working for the government. On an individual basis, its got very little to with capitalism, and you may as well as be working for the Soviet state.

Often, when people are complaining that they are losing their jobs, I feel like saying - well why don't you get off your arse and form your own small company. You must have the skills to do something, even if its just cleaning the shoes and mansions of the bankers.

The people owning and running their own small companies are the real capitalists, and they should be encouraged, because they are the ones that generate the real wealth and provide taxes for Government to operate.

Tony

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I am happy to hear that cities regardless of which party rules it are putting politics aside and
Posted by: JenniferBedingfield on Oct 7, 2009 9:42 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
paying more attention to Main Street. I have heard suggestions that we need to pay attention to our local and state elections and those who have said it are right. Wall $treet exists the way it is due to the way the electorate without realization allowed it to grow and thrive on the wrong foundation and principles. I am happy to find cities and people not giving up the fight to put their new ideas and inventions to clean up yesterday's damage on the table even when Washington and the corporate interests continue to try to persecute and stifle thoughtful individuals trying to help society just because they aren't monied or well connected. When society puts quality production over disaster profiteering, society wins and is less unhappy.

P.S.: We will no doubt have to see to it that Washington nor the big monied interests interfere with state and local efforts. Let's improve voter turnout in local elections so that we may build a better Washington that listens to us. Good luck to all of us. We will need it especially when we are at a point when even China and Saudi Arabia are marginalizing the US dollar.

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financial equality
Posted by: Rusty Shackleford on Oct 7, 2009 11:48 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is no reason on god's green earth that a CEO needs to earn 200 to 300 times more than his lowest employee.

Hell, there's no reason that CEO needs to earn even 20 to 30 times more than his lowest employee.

I would say anywhere from 2 to 10 times as much as the lowest employee is MORE than enough money for any man, if you absolutely HAVE to make more money than your employees at ALL.

If you make $200,000 a year, and your ratio is 4:1, then your lowest employee will still make $50,000. A very respectable income that allows him to provide for his family, own a decent home, provide for a decent vacation where they're free to travel, etc.

Instead, we have this corporate model, where we have a super-rich board of directors, and at the bottom, we have the burger-flippers, who don't even earn enough to survive on their own.

They scare us with the idea that the only alternative is that either THEY own everything, or the big bad wolf known as government does.

The "third way" is to have the actual PEOPLE own stuff. Have the people be members of co-ops. Have the people LITERALLY be their own board of directors.

The little grocery store stock-boy IS a member of the board of directors at his co-op grocery store. He doesn't have to worry about not having enough money, because his fellow workers are all in the same boat with him.

THAT is how you build a decent community. NOT by turning millionaires into billionaires and saying everything revolves around them, and if it doesn't, the world is going to end.

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» RE: financial equality Posted by: VZEQICVA
Alaska's Public Fossil Dividend Isn't Socialism
Posted by: rtdrury on Oct 7, 2009 12:27 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"In the year 2000, every person in Alaska, as a legal right, received $2,000 [through this process]. So a family of five [together receive] $10,000."

Don't think Alaska's fossil dividend policy is driven by socialist ideology. It's a bribe, pure and simple, perpetrated by Unkie Sam, to attract and keep USans in Alaska to call it home so when the time comes to defend the imperial outpost from invasion, these Alaskans will be driven to defend their homes, and will help rally the rest of USans to the cause. Call it Imperial Psych-Ops. Big people playing little people like little violins.

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I want to find the worker owned coops
Posted by: DaBear on Oct 7, 2009 2:20 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
..but my neck of the woods doesn't know from nothin.

Recently I spent the summer working with a founding group of a "progressive" charter school, practicing and facilitating consensus and consensus-seeking processes, teaching them alternative models of self-governance and Brown Act compliance with a subversive democratic methodology with another consultant who has done this in other countries (because outside the US is where it's all happening, NOT in the US). The group was so conditioned to the US executive model and enslaved to conservative business practices, rankism and classism so ingrained we couldn't guide them to completion. They're on their own, floundering around behaving pretty much like every other conservative organization violating their stated values and mission. They ended up with an exec board run by an owning class entrepreneur who believes that consensus and power-sharing is amateur-stuff, that business execs are the experts, etc. who swept in after the group was making some hard-fought progress towards meeting their goals and he just took over. Everyone quickly lined up, following their conditioning, and put their heads down and obeyed him. It was sickening to watch. (Not to mention frustrating to have put in over 800 hours and not get paid because we failed, ugh. my co-coordinator is now back in Argentina doing his thing with people who get it and I'm stuck here).

It is so frustrating to see that happen to otherwise well-intentioned people. Mostly it takes serious re-programming to get people to upshift to what ought to be because of just how deeply they've been programmed with the neocon SUCK.

SO now I'm looking for another opp for something progressive and worthwhile. If I can find these glorious worker owned coops, maybe that'd be a swell restart.

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Group marriage
Posted by: maxsmart on Oct 7, 2009 2:55 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Group marriage would be a good alternative to the toxic nuclear family of over-consumption. It would allow sharing of resources, intimacy, homekeeping, and child care and nurturing. Creating a stability and flexibility in the face of financial and health hardships and the fears of abandonment and with more skills to depend on.

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» RE: Group marriage Posted by: VZEQICVA
group marriage
Posted by: maxsmart on Oct 7, 2009 3:42 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Group marriages in place of the toxic nuclear family of overconsumption would allow more financial, emotional, and homekeeping flexibility in a complex world. Less fear of abandonment and isolation and over-stressed lifestyles. Sharing skill sets and child nurturing in a zero population growth world.

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Worker-owned coops have a very bad track record.
Posted by: AJR Journal on Oct 7, 2009 8:10 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Question:
What is the largest worker-owned coop in the US?
Bonus question:
Can you name 3 worker-owned coops?
Chances are, if you are like me and millions of Americans, you will flunk this pop-quiz.
Coops have been tried for centuries and they rarely succeed. They are wasteful, slow, bloated, and,ultimately, losers. They eventually collapse under their own bloated weight.
It would be nice to think "But our coops will be different this time", but that is a pipe dream.
Like it or not, the privately-owned corporate/shareholder model is most successful in the building of a large enterprise.

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Support Invention
Posted by: PaulK on Oct 7, 2009 9:08 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'll generally support coops, but here's one critical problem with coops -- they don't innovate. Co-ops make good microbrew beers, they grow zucchini and they repair cars, but they just aren't organized and incorporated to reinvent computer chips.

I believe that in theory, a forward-looking coop could be formed where the consumers had a vote on the board of directors, where the workers had a vote, and where the co-op's known innovators had a vote. Given either consensus or 75% majority rule, such a co-op would innovate, would grow, would provide well for the workers' retirement fund. Such a co-op could compete in Silicon Valley.

Because so much of modern enterprise is in the innovate or be lunch category, maybe we should give inventor-friendly co-ops a try.

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another editing question: is anyone reading your articles before you publish?
Posted by: Spot on Oct 7, 2009 11:38 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[Quote] But it is also the case that 90 percent of the American workforce is not involved in manufacturing, and over the next 15 years it'll be 5 percent. That's the trend.
[/quote]

Are you sure you didn't mean 95%? The figure you give, 5%, would mean that 18/20 workers will lose their jobs and find new employment in manufacturing, an industry which is imploding before our eyes! Either you need better copy editing or you have interviewed someone with no credibility. The rest of the article leads me to believe that the former case is true.

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dipconsult
Posted by: dipconsult on Oct 8, 2009 1:03 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Post-capitalist developments of this sort are extremely important. Our bankers and most of the West's leaders are struggling just to get back ante-meltdown 2008, to the Era of Waste which started half a century ago with the recovery from World War II. But even if they did, that would only prolong the agony.

The waste of finite resources, the ruin of the environment, cannot continue if mankind is to meet the existential challenges it now faces.

Capitalism - especially decontrolled laissez-faire capitalism - was and remains the largest factor in creating and continuing this Era of Waste. The worship of the Golden Calf, of the "bottom line", must be replaced partly by far stricter controls and partly by such new economic arrangements. Instead of blindly shifting from one immediately profitable path we must know what we are trying to do.

Capitalism plus government and non-governmental projects brought us through the great wars because all sought victory as an end.

In a word, humanity must have a "telos" - an end or purpose - that it is consciously moving towards. And the "telos" we can surely all agree on is doing all that is required for the survival of mankind.

The US - which took over from Britain in creating modern capitalism and is now suffering so severely from what it wrought - is surely the one country with the dynamism and imagination to lead the world toward that "telos" for survival. If the US shows a way to do that, China - already trying to re-organise for that same purpose - would join in.

But first we have to change the mind-set of politicians, the "old" media, and all the others who are now so blindly struggling to get back to "the good old days" before 2008. [see also our web site www.dipconsult.eu]

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» RE: dipconsult Posted by: VZEQICVA
Just prolong the agony
Posted by: sounwel on Oct 8, 2009 9:05 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree with you about that would only prolong the agony.HD Video Converter

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» RE: Just prolong the agony Posted by: donotworry
re:
Posted by: nature on Oct 22, 2009 7:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The really sad part is that others in this nation won't know about it, or get a chance to put it into use in their communities. And things have only begun to get tough for Americans....Ed Hardy | Tiffany Jewelry

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sounwel
Posted by: donotworry on Oct 24, 2009 9:08 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thank you for your software.With it I succeed converting my mts video to flv.It's really a good hd video converter.

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dfh
Posted by: john810 on Oct 28, 2009 6:41 PM   
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fdgdfg
Posted by: john810 on Oct 28, 2009 6:42 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
IVR Converter is an excellent IVR Converter software for you which can convert .ivr files to nearyl all video format files.RM Converter for Mac | RM Converter for Windows

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