COMMENTS: 58
Jesus Is Their Health Care: Why Conservative Christians Oppose Real Reform
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Why do conservative Christians in the US favor healthcare co-operatives? Speakers at the Family Research Council's values voters summit this month unanimously opposed any government-run options, which they believe may lead to "European socialism". But they endorsed collectivism in another guise: health co-operatives. This differentiation is the logical outcome of crass, Christian right exclusivity.
Manchester, my adopted home, is the birthplace of the British co-operative movement – a place, at the coalface of the industrial revolution, that experienced extreme inner city poverty and depravation. A place where working-class people, struggling with a multitude of 19th-century problems in health and housing, collectively sought to help each other in times of crisis.
Co-operatives enabled those of like minds and similar situations to weather storms in which, through no fault of their own, good working men and women simply needed a little assistance: an illness that temporarily lowered the family income, the expense of healthcare and even funeral costs. Co-operatives were a common-sense solution to the occasional crisis of the common man.
In a similar fashion, co-operatives seem one common-sense solution in America's healthcare debate. They offer an alternative to individually purchased private health insurance or to limited employee schemes with high deductibles, both of which are costly for the average citizen. Healthcare co-operatives could bring together individuals, increasing their purchasing power and driving down the cost of health insurance. It isn't the glorious NHS, but it's a good idea with a solid history.
Of course, a part of that history is the context in which it was given birth. The industrial revolution, as the coming of the age of capitalism, was the thesis to which the co-operative movement was the antithesis. The individualism, the force of the market, produced a level of squalor, a level of personal insecurity and a fundamental disregard on the part of business, for the collective need. For that moment in history, the most famous (adopted) Mancunian was named Marx. He wrote much of his critique of capitalism as he sat watching the factories billow smoke into the Manchester air above and the sewers running through the streets below.
Co-operatives were a better alternative to parish councils. Those traditional ports in a storm were overwhelmed by capitalism, and Protestant pragmatism led to prioritizing poor relief. The "deserving" poor were delineated from the "undeserving" poor. Those deserving of help were those familiar to the parish councillors, those known to be of moral standing, those who could be trusted, upon receipt of help, to do better. The landscape around Manchester is dotted with workhouses that gave refuge, employment and some education to those less deserving and more fitting for a life akin to indentured servitude.
For all their invocations of fear of "European socialism", it is somewhat surprising to find American values voters endorsing a policy so anathema to free-market capitalism – a significant shift for those normally endorsing individual responsibility. The ideological Petri dish for co-operatives was the recognition of the limits of individualism and capitalism. Undoubtedly, values voters endorsing co-operatives would not share this ideological moment of conception. So what is motivating this new-found recognition of the benefits of collective bargaining?
Given their penchant for delineating categories of "us" and "them" – those who speak the Truth and those who do not speak with God's voice – values voters seem more like traditional English parish councils, with a clear message of who is deserving and undeserving. During a breakout session at the values voters summit in 2007, Hillary Clinton's healthcare plan was dismissed as a means for the "gay lobby" to ensure healthcare for all homosexuals – who, because of their sin, would eventually die of Aids.
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Posted by: maxpayne on Oct 5, 2009 12:51 AM
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» RE: Thank you for shouting the truth!
Posted by: jaynesian
» the truth is, the blame can be shared all around
Posted by: masthead
» RE: This author has no business blaming Jesus for the Democrats' lack of providing health care for all !
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: This author has no business blaming Jesus for the Democrats' lack of providing health care for all !
Posted by: maxpayne
» Wait a minute--
Posted by: jvaljon1
» No way. You're way out of line !
Posted by: maxpayne
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Posted by: Oemissions on Oct 5, 2009 1:43 AM
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Will these Christian co-ops permit breast enhancement, botoxing, and all sorts of cosmetic surgeries?
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» "God Put Plastic Surgeons On This Earth"
Posted by: QQOblivion
» RE: For Christ's sake
Posted by: srsnell
» Homicide vs Genocide
Posted by: paulaH
» Ah, we can "blame" Jesus for universal health care in Canada.
Posted by: SayBlade
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Posted by: robchapman on Oct 5, 2009 3:39 AM
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One uninformed comment aobut church run cooperatives does not amount to a movement to involve churches in health care.
Historically, the churches have been massively involved in health care. Hospitals bear names such as Presbytarian Hospital, St. Vincent's Hospital, etc., precisely because of the massive investments US church groups have made to relieve human suffering.
However, the sheer magnitude of providing modern health care to everyone has overwhelmed the voluntary efforts of even the deep pocketed US churches.
The time has come to pass health care reform based on the unconditional moral principle that health care is a basic human right.
The arguing over cooperatives ve the public option or single payor vs the public option has obscured this guiding principle.
If Congress fails to enact health care before the winter holiday recess, it will be clear signal that American democracy is morally hollow and does not offer the guarantees of basic dignity that citizens of other countries expect.
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» Apples and Oranges
Posted by: dkm
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Posted by: adp3d on Oct 5, 2009 3:42 AM
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» RE: Wha...?
Posted by: inprov73
» This has nothing to do with Jesus
Posted by: colinmeister
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Posted by: PJAW on Oct 5, 2009 4:24 AM
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How about if I show up with a ravaging case of full blown AIDS, or stage 3 cancer? If I accept Jesus, can I buy some insurance? No? But I can get into heaven? Well, I guess that's better anyway. So how come YOU want insurance?
Health care should be seen as the basic human right that it is. All the rest of this arguing is just about bookkeeping.
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» RE: Same scam, different name...
Posted by: Vik
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Posted by: drricklippin on Oct 5, 2009 6:03 AM
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Do we not all bleed red?
Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton,Pa
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» RE: Do we not all bleed red?
Posted by: wolfgangmo75
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Posted by: MMarauder on Oct 5, 2009 6:16 AM
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Under the new plan, American Citizens would spend between 15 and 30 minutes daily praying for the country's infirmed. House Minority Leader John Boehner was amongst the first of Representatives to tout what he perceives as the merits of the bill; "It seems like a no brainer to me." he said, "In the past six months, we've seen this country engage in a rapid decline into Godless communism. We're not going to fix healthcare in this country by continuing the course we're on. Rather, we need to exploit the most powerful and underutilized resource this country has, prayer, in order to heal the nation's sick." New Congressman John Fleming, MD (R, La.) lent some of his credibility as a longtime family physician "The healing power of prayer is not only documented many times in the Bible, but has even been proven by science as having concrete medical benefits. So whether you go by the democrat god of science, or the Real Republican God™, you have to admit that prayer works." Congresswoman Michelle Bachmann also lauded the plan; "I, as well as all the wonderful people of Minnesota, applaud this bill as not only a way of helping Americans remove themselves from the tyranny of high health care costs, but as a way of bringing God back into a country that has forsaken Him for far too long. If Christianity was good enough for all of this country's founding fathers, it should be good enough for us.
When it was suggested that perhaps not all of the country's founding fathers were Christian, Representative Bachman became combative; "You're one of those Godless liberals, aren't you?" Bachmann demanded, "Once my HOORAA bill becomes law, people like you won't be able to walk the streets without facing the scorn you so rightly deserve!" HOORAA or Helping Out by Ostracizing and Resenting Atheists and Agnostics, would require those who have a non-belief in God or are on the fence with regard to their belief in God, to receive several brands on parts of their body, at least one of which must be on prominent display at all times while out in public. The bill is currently in committee.
Anticipating a great amount of confusion regarding the details of the House bill, Representative and part-time theologian Spencer Bachus brought out a large cardboard panel to explain further how the bill would provide cost effective, even free medical services to the country's sick; "As you can clearly see by this chart my dear grandson helped me make with his wondrous electronic answer box, while even the smallest prayers are answered in some respect by the Lord Almighty, as the amount of active and simultaneous prayers are increased, the healing power increases quadratically. So much so that by the point you reach 100 simultaneous prayers, inflictions even as terrible as homosexuality or liberalism can easily be cured." Communications with Representative Bachus's grandson revealed the referenced box to be an 18 month old laptop with Microsoft's popular Powerpoint presentation software.
Not all House members, however, expressed the same amount of optimism regarding the efficacy of H.R. 777. Ohio's 10th District Representative Dennis Kucinich expressed his reluctance to support such a bill on the House floor; "While I deeply respect the religious views of the House members who have crafted this bill, I don't feel confident that prayer alone can solve the nation's healthcare crisis. As a supplemental bill, I could see myself getting behind this. Continued
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» Republicans Release Controversial "Single Prayer" Healthcare Plan - Cont.
Posted by: MMarauder
» Republicans Release Controversial "Single Prayer" Healthcare Plan - Cont.
Posted by: MMarauder
» RE: epublicans Release Controversial "Single Prayer" Healthcare Plan - Cont.
Posted by: jvaljon1
» RE: Godless communism
Posted by: solrev
» RE: epublicans Release Controversial "Single Prayer" Healthcare Plan
Posted by: MNBlue
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Oct 5, 2009 6:53 AM
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I guess to the people described in this article, it's either "come to Jesus---or DIE!"
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» RE: come to Jesus, or die!
Posted by: wolfgangmo75
» RE: come to Jesus, or die!
Posted by: Anthropologist
» RE: Yeah... and don't forget your wallet and credit cards!!!
Posted by: wolfgangmo75
» RE: come to Jesus, or die!
Posted by: Ocean tides
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Posted by: nobyjingo on Oct 5, 2009 7:09 AM
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Posted by: Purple Girl on Oct 5, 2009 7:20 AM
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And are these organizations going to help cover the cost when these 'good' christians decide 'Cheaper by the Dozen' is their Budget stratedgy? Or will they be like Octomom and figure society will cover her Developmentally disabled childrens life time care needs?
Will this 'community' also foot the bill for long term care when they become elderly, requiring full time nursing care?
The Rightwing has as many lifestyle choices and behaviors which cost taxpayers and premium payers, as well. And there are those which transcend lifestyle choices- they can happen to anyone.
They may have a moral aversion to abortion, but I have a moral aversion to maintaining a clinically dead person to satisfy some morbid obsession of a loved one. I consider it Selfish,sadistic and hypocritical. If God "is calling" who are they to obstruct the call?
Besides I don't recall Jesus denying to heal or aid someone just because of their lifestyle or circumstance. He didn't see their situation as a form of predetermined divine punishment, to begin with.So frankly I use the term 'Christian' loosely- only because it's what they call themselves (How disturbingly Ironic)
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Posted by: Anthropologist on Oct 5, 2009 7:28 AM
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They also make up nearly a quarter of the populace- those who steadfastly insisted that Bush was right and doing a good job.
I have my own experiences with them- while dealing with daily diarrhea and migraines as well as unemployment and marginal homelessness, they told me that I should be thankful for my "good health"- and that if I had problems, I didn't have enough faith. (I wasn't missing limbs and didn't look unhealthy!)
Never mind that the preacher was demanding more and more money from us- I was giving 30% of my income and it inched up to 50% to his church.
That could have paid for medical care and an apartment.
Oh... and why I stayed in that church for nearly three years? In a word- brainwashing.
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Posted by: melpol on Oct 5, 2009 7:30 AM
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Posted by: chaoslegs on Oct 5, 2009 7:33 AM
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Posted by: Atheistno1 on Oct 5, 2009 7:47 AM
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Posted by: Spiritgirl on Oct 5, 2009 7:53 AM
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So basically the same reason that brought "health-cooperatives" to the fore, is the same reason that we need a public option now! And NO, we don't need the "bible-thumpers", they have no real understanding of the first principal - LOVE THY NEIGHBOR!!
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Posted by: CLARENCE SWINNEY on Oct 5, 2009 7:57 AM
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I have yet to know one which was ANSWERED.
A Prayer of Thanks is mine.
Thousands=Waste of Time.
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Posted by: edgar_michel on Oct 5, 2009 8:12 AM
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When I read the Bible in this context you see it as a recipe for and the preservation of dictatorship, the anathema of democratic principles. That Christianity and Democracy have lived in relative harmony for the last 200+ years is surprising.
If Christianity was based on principles that championed the causes of the common man, perhaps it could be a blueprint for world governance, but it was designed to keep people mindful of their place in the imperial hierarchy thus allowing Rome to reduce its need for huge standing armies.
I have intuitively felt that there was something wrong with Christianity all my life but I never took the time to delve into the history of my own religion. Now that I have spent some time looking into it I find some curious facts I was never aware of before that makes me question the wisdom of Christianity.
At the time of the writing of the Christian Bible, the Flavian family of dictators was in power in Rome (Vespasian and Titus). And I have to remember that Peter and Paul were in Rome at the pleasure of Vespasian and then Titus. Also Josephus makes no mention of Jesus in his 20 volume treatise, “The Jewish Wars,” implying that Jesus was a literary invention, a mythical man, created to enshrine the principals of the imperial state of Rome.
Constantine was a Flavian and made Christianity the official religion of Rome and put all competitors to the sword.
The first Royal families of the newly created provinces in Europe were Flavian.
When I look at Christianity in this light I begin to see that it was a religion designed to insure the success of the Flavian family and Imperial Roman rule.
This makes me wonder about the motives of Christian leaders and their real agenda. Could it be that they wish to be Caesar themselves and are working tirelessly to make it so?
Denying non-believers the essentials of health care seems to point in that direction.
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» RE: DaVinci Code: Just Musing
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Oct 5, 2009 9:09 AM
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Posted by: shd1230 on Oct 5, 2009 10:00 AM
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» RE: FAITH WILL HEAL YOU?
Posted by: jvaljon1
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Posted by: billwald on Oct 5, 2009 10:01 AM
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Posted by: Cappuccino on Oct 5, 2009 11:27 AM
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Try it uncle Sam and you´ll bound to feel better.
To me as to most Europeans one of the greatest ironies of US politics is the fact that American christian right wingers are privately and publicly worshiping the world´s first communist.
Christian socialism is Communism.To the early christians all things were common property Everyone sharing - from each according to her/his ability to each according to his/her needs.Put the teachings of Jesus next to the teachings of Marx and bingo,you have almost a perfect match.
Is this a case of self-proclaimed ignorance on the part of the teabagging brigade about the morals of christianity
or is this bible-thumping blashemy beyond the pail.e.i. commie-bashing the president,other countries public health systems-public transport etc.
Cui bono?- markettheism i.e.capitalism the greatest, most powerful religion known to man.
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Posted by: teon6 on Oct 5, 2009 11:36 AM
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I have intuitively felt that there was something wrong with Christianity all my life but I never took the time to delve into the history of my own religion. Now that I have spent some time looking into it I find how i met your mother s05e03 subtitles the big bang theory subs the big bang theory subtitles the vampire diaries subs the vampire diaries season 1 seropol5 some curious facts I was never aware of before that makes me question the wisdom of Christianity.
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» Much of Christianity IS based on principles that champion cause of the common person.
Posted by: SayBlade
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Posted by: MotherLodeBeth on Oct 5, 2009 12:17 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: What's with the Christian bashing?
Posted by: MMarauder
» No one on any progressive blog is talking about forcing anything
Posted by: wolfgangmo75
» RE: What's with the Christian bashing?
Posted by: tom1946
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Posted by: jvaljon1 on Oct 5, 2009 3:44 PM
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The Christ Who I learned about, in Catholic school, would be bitterly ashamed of being included in any "values voters" summit. I believe he'd also be very angry at the slur.
The "values voters" of His day were Hebrews, who had long been chafing under the competition that Christ and His Actual Values, presented to their money-grubbing status quo.
These "Values voters" are disgusting pieces of absolute garbage, and I wouldn't insult The Christ by calling them any kind of Christian.
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Posted by: jvaljon1 on Oct 5, 2009 3:44 PM
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The Christ Who I learned about, in Catholic school, would be bitterly ashamed of being included in any "values voters" summit. I believe he'd also be very angry at the slur.
The "values voters" of His day were Hebrews, who had long been chafing under the competition that Christ and His Actual Values, presented to their money-grubbing status quo.
These "Values voters" are disgusting pieces of absolute garbage, and I wouldn't insult The Christ by calling them any kind of Christian.
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Posted by: greatwerewolf7 on Oct 6, 2009 3:05 AM
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[Report this comment] Posted by: shd1230 on Oct 5, 2009 10:00 AM
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" NOW, I AM OF THE OPINION THAT IF YOU ARE TRULY SAVED BY JESUS AND A CHRISTIAN IN EVERY WAY, YOU WILL NOT GET SICK, THEREFORE ALL OF YOU TRUE CHRISTIANS DO NOT NEED HEALTH INSURANCE, YOU ALREADY HAVE IT FROM THE HIGHEST SOURCE. HOWVER, YOU ARE COMMANDED BY THE WORDS OF JESUS TO HEAL THE SICK, FEED THE HUNGRY, GIVE YOUR COAT TO ANYONE WHO ASKS FOR IT AS WELL AS OFFER YOUR CLOAK ALSO. I MAY BE PREJUDICED BUT SOMEHOW I CANNOT SEE ANY OF YOU RIGHT-WING HYPOCRITES DOING ANY OF THE ABOVE."
Now I would like to see how many of you Pro Jesus posters actually believe in your god (oops son of god)to protect you from being sick. Please note that you should also be able to survive any poison you may consume because of your trust in Jesus.
If none of you believe/trust in these words of your Jesus, how can you claim to be a Christian?
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Posted by: Ahimsa on Oct 6, 2009 5:36 PM
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And the government is bad.
How do you call the leadership of a smaller group, if not government?
These people need health care to pay for their brain vitamins to see if they get it to grow.
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Posted by: Ahimsa on Oct 6, 2009 5:39 PM
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It preaches one thing and does another.
At different levels.
Some of it more, some of it less harmful.
It prohibits common sense and natural things, condones (or turns a blind eye) to immorality. From the Vatican to American evangelists.
Sad.
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Posted by: maxpayne on Oct 5, 2009 12:51 AM
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» RE: Thank you for shouting the truth!
Posted by: jaynesian
» the truth is, the blame can be shared all around
Posted by: masthead
» RE: This author has no business blaming Jesus for the Democrats' lack of providing health care for all !
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: This author has no business blaming Jesus for the Democrats' lack of providing health care for all !
Posted by: maxpayne
» Wait a minute--
Posted by: jvaljon1
» No way. You're way out of line !
Posted by: maxpayne
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Posted by: Oemissions on Oct 5, 2009 1:43 AM
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Will these Christian co-ops permit breast enhancement, botoxing, and all sorts of cosmetic surgeries?
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» "God Put Plastic Surgeons On This Earth"
Posted by: QQOblivion
» RE: For Christ's sake
Posted by: srsnell
» Homicide vs Genocide
Posted by: paulaH
» Ah, we can "blame" Jesus for universal health care in Canada.
Posted by: SayBlade
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Posted by: robchapman on Oct 5, 2009 3:39 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One uninformed comment aobut church run cooperatives does not amount to a movement to involve churches in health care.
Historically, the churches have been massively involved in health care. Hospitals bear names such as Presbytarian Hospital, St. Vincent's Hospital, etc., precisely because of the massive investments US church groups have made to relieve human suffering.
However, the sheer magnitude of providing modern health care to everyone has overwhelmed the voluntary efforts of even the deep pocketed US churches.
The time has come to pass health care reform based on the unconditional moral principle that health care is a basic human right.
The arguing over cooperatives ve the public option or single payor vs the public option has obscured this guiding principle.
If Congress fails to enact health care before the winter holiday recess, it will be clear signal that American democracy is morally hollow and does not offer the guarantees of basic dignity that citizens of other countries expect.
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» Apples and Oranges
Posted by: dkm
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Posted by: adp3d on Oct 5, 2009 3:42 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Wha...?
Posted by: inprov73
» This has nothing to do with Jesus
Posted by: colinmeister
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Posted by: PJAW on Oct 5, 2009 4:24 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How about if I show up with a ravaging case of full blown AIDS, or stage 3 cancer? If I accept Jesus, can I buy some insurance? No? But I can get into heaven? Well, I guess that's better anyway. So how come YOU want insurance?
Health care should be seen as the basic human right that it is. All the rest of this arguing is just about bookkeeping.
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» RE: Same scam, different name...
Posted by: Vik
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Posted by: drricklippin on Oct 5, 2009 6:03 AM
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Do we not all bleed red?
Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton,Pa
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» RE: Do we not all bleed red?
Posted by: wolfgangmo75
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Posted by: MMarauder on Oct 5, 2009 6:16 AM
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Under the new plan, American Citizens would spend between 15 and 30 minutes daily praying for the country's infirmed. House Minority Leader John Boehner was amongst the first of Representatives to tout what he perceives as the merits of the bill; "It seems like a no brainer to me." he said, "In the past six months, we've seen this country engage in a rapid decline into Godless communism. We're not going to fix healthcare in this country by continuing the course we're on. Rather, we need to exploit the most powerful and underutilized resource this country has, prayer, in order to heal the nation's sick." New Congressman John Fleming, MD (R, La.) lent some of his credibility as a longtime family physician "The healing power of prayer is not only documented many times in the Bible, but has even been proven by science as having concrete medical benefits. So whether you go by the democrat god of science, or the Real Republican God™, you have to admit that prayer works." Congresswoman Michelle Bachmann also lauded the plan; "I, as well as all the wonderful people of Minnesota, applaud this bill as not only a way of helping Americans remove themselves from the tyranny of high health care costs, but as a way of bringing God back into a country that has forsaken Him for far too long. If Christianity was good enough for all of this country's founding fathers, it should be good enough for us.
When it was suggested that perhaps not all of the country's founding fathers were Christian, Representative Bachman became combative; "You're one of those Godless liberals, aren't you?" Bachmann demanded, "Once my HOORAA bill becomes law, people like you won't be able to walk the streets without facing the scorn you so rightly deserve!" HOORAA or Helping Out by Ostracizing and Resenting Atheists and Agnostics, would require those who have a non-belief in God or are on the fence with regard to their belief in God, to receive several brands on parts of their body, at least one of which must be on prominent display at all times while out in public. The bill is currently in committee.
Anticipating a great amount of confusion regarding the details of the House bill, Representative and part-time theologian Spencer Bachus brought out a large cardboard panel to explain further how the bill would provide cost effective, even free medical services to the country's sick; "As you can clearly see by this chart my dear grandson helped me make with his wondrous electronic answer box, while even the smallest prayers are answered in some respect by the Lord Almighty, as the amount of active and simultaneous prayers are increased, the healing power increases quadratically. So much so that by the point you reach 100 simultaneous prayers, inflictions even as terrible as homosexuality or liberalism can easily be cured." Communications with Representative Bachus's grandson revealed the referenced box to be an 18 month old laptop with Microsoft's popular Powerpoint presentation software.
Not all House members, however, expressed the same amount of optimism regarding the efficacy of H.R. 777. Ohio's 10th District Representative Dennis Kucinich expressed his reluctance to support such a bill on the House floor; "While I deeply respect the religious views of the House members who have crafted this bill, I don't feel confident that prayer alone can solve the nation's healthcare crisis. As a supplemental bill, I could see myself getting behind this. Continued
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» Republicans Release Controversial "Single Prayer" Healthcare Plan - Cont.
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» Republicans Release Controversial "Single Prayer" Healthcare Plan - Cont.
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» RE: epublicans Release Controversial "Single Prayer" Healthcare Plan - Cont.
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» RE: Godless communism
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» RE: epublicans Release Controversial "Single Prayer" Healthcare Plan
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Oct 5, 2009 6:53 AM
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I guess to the people described in this article, it's either "come to Jesus---or DIE!"
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» RE: come to Jesus, or die!
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» RE: come to Jesus, or die!
Posted by: Anthropologist
» RE: Yeah... and don't forget your wallet and credit cards!!!
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» RE: come to Jesus, or die!
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Posted by: nobyjingo on Oct 5, 2009 7:09 AM
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Posted by: Purple Girl on Oct 5, 2009 7:20 AM
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And are these organizations going to help cover the cost when these 'good' christians decide 'Cheaper by the Dozen' is their Budget stratedgy? Or will they be like Octomom and figure society will cover her Developmentally disabled childrens life time care needs?
Will this 'community' also foot the bill for long term care when they become elderly, requiring full time nursing care?
The Rightwing has as many lifestyle choices and behaviors which cost taxpayers and premium payers, as well. And there are those which transcend lifestyle choices- they can happen to anyone.
They may have a moral aversion to abortion, but I have a moral aversion to maintaining a clinically dead person to satisfy some morbid obsession of a loved one. I consider it Selfish,sadistic and hypocritical. If God "is calling" who are they to obstruct the call?
Besides I don't recall Jesus denying to heal or aid someone just because of their lifestyle or circumstance. He didn't see their situation as a form of predetermined divine punishment, to begin with.So frankly I use the term 'Christian' loosely- only because it's what they call themselves (How disturbingly Ironic)
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Posted by: Anthropologist on Oct 5, 2009 7:28 AM
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They also make up nearly a quarter of the populace- those who steadfastly insisted that Bush was right and doing a good job.
I have my own experiences with them- while dealing with daily diarrhea and migraines as well as unemployment and marginal homelessness, they told me that I should be thankful for my "good health"- and that if I had problems, I didn't have enough faith. (I wasn't missing limbs and didn't look unhealthy!)
Never mind that the preacher was demanding more and more money from us- I was giving 30% of my income and it inched up to 50% to his church.
That could have paid for medical care and an apartment.
Oh... and why I stayed in that church for nearly three years? In a word- brainwashing.
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Posted by: melpol on Oct 5, 2009 7:30 AM
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Posted by: chaoslegs on Oct 5, 2009 7:33 AM
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Posted by: Atheistno1 on Oct 5, 2009 7:47 AM
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Posted by: Spiritgirl on Oct 5, 2009 7:53 AM
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So basically the same reason that brought "health-cooperatives" to the fore, is the same reason that we need a public option now! And NO, we don't need the "bible-thumpers", they have no real understanding of the first principal - LOVE THY NEIGHBOR!!
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Posted by: CLARENCE SWINNEY on Oct 5, 2009 7:57 AM
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I have yet to know one which was ANSWERED.
A Prayer of Thanks is mine.
Thousands=Waste of Time.
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Posted by: edgar_michel on Oct 5, 2009 8:12 AM
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When I read the Bible in this context you see it as a recipe for and the preservation of dictatorship, the anathema of democratic principles. That Christianity and Democracy have lived in relative harmony for the last 200+ years is surprising.
If Christianity was based on principles that championed the causes of the common man, perhaps it could be a blueprint for world governance, but it was designed to keep people mindful of their place in the imperial hierarchy thus allowing Rome to reduce its need for huge standing armies.
I have intuitively felt that there was something wrong with Christianity all my life but I never took the time to delve into the history of my own religion. Now that I have spent some time looking into it I find some curious facts I was never aware of before that makes me question the wisdom of Christianity.
At the time of the writing of the Christian Bible, the Flavian family of dictators was in power in Rome (Vespasian and Titus). And I have to remember that Peter and Paul were in Rome at the pleasure of Vespasian and then Titus. Also Josephus makes no mention of Jesus in his 20 volume treatise, “The Jewish Wars,” implying that Jesus was a literary invention, a mythical man, created to enshrine the principals of the imperial state of Rome.
Constantine was a Flavian and made Christianity the official religion of Rome and put all competitors to the sword.
The first Royal families of the newly created provinces in Europe were Flavian.
When I look at Christianity in this light I begin to see that it was a religion designed to insure the success of the Flavian family and Imperial Roman rule.
This makes me wonder about the motives of Christian leaders and their real agenda. Could it be that they wish to be Caesar themselves and are working tirelessly to make it so?
Denying non-believers the essentials of health care seems to point in that direction.
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Oct 5, 2009 9:09 AM
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Posted by: shd1230 on Oct 5, 2009 10:00 AM
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» RE: FAITH WILL HEAL YOU?
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Posted by: billwald on Oct 5, 2009 10:01 AM
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Posted by: Cappuccino on Oct 5, 2009 11:27 AM
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Try it uncle Sam and you´ll bound to feel better.
To me as to most Europeans one of the greatest ironies of US politics is the fact that American christian right wingers are privately and publicly worshiping the world´s first communist.
Christian socialism is Communism.To the early christians all things were common property Everyone sharing - from each according to her/his ability to each according to his/her needs.Put the teachings of Jesus next to the teachings of Marx and bingo,you have almost a perfect match.
Is this a case of self-proclaimed ignorance on the part of the teabagging brigade about the morals of christianity
or is this bible-thumping blashemy beyond the pail.e.i. commie-bashing the president,other countries public health systems-public transport etc.
Cui bono?- markettheism i.e.capitalism the greatest, most powerful religion known to man.
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Posted by: teon6 on Oct 5, 2009 11:36 AM
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I have intuitively felt that there was something wrong with Christianity all my life but I never took the time to delve into the history of my own religion. Now that I have spent some time looking into it I find how i met your mother s05e03 subtitles the big bang theory subs the big bang theory subtitles the vampire diaries subs the vampire diaries season 1 seropol5 some curious facts I was never aware of before that makes me question the wisdom of Christianity.
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» Much of Christianity IS based on principles that champion cause of the common person.
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Posted by: MotherLodeBeth on Oct 5, 2009 12:17 PM
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» RE: What's with the Christian bashing?
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» RE: What's with the Christian bashing?
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Posted by: jvaljon1 on Oct 5, 2009 3:44 PM
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The Christ Who I learned about, in Catholic school, would be bitterly ashamed of being included in any "values voters" summit. I believe he'd also be very angry at the slur.
The "values voters" of His day were Hebrews, who had long been chafing under the competition that Christ and His Actual Values, presented to their money-grubbing status quo.
These "Values voters" are disgusting pieces of absolute garbage, and I wouldn't insult The Christ by calling them any kind of Christian.
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Posted by: jvaljon1 on Oct 5, 2009 3:44 PM
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The Christ Who I learned about, in Catholic school, would be bitterly ashamed of being included in any "values voters" summit. I believe he'd also be very angry at the slur.
The "values voters" of His day were Hebrews, who had long been chafing under the competition that Christ and His Actual Values, presented to their money-grubbing status quo.
These "Values voters" are disgusting pieces of absolute garbage, and I wouldn't insult The Christ by calling them any kind of Christian.
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Posted by: greatwerewolf7 on Oct 6, 2009 3:05 AM
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[Report this comment] Posted by: shd1230 on Oct 5, 2009 10:00 AM
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" NOW, I AM OF THE OPINION THAT IF YOU ARE TRULY SAVED BY JESUS AND A CHRISTIAN IN EVERY WAY, YOU WILL NOT GET SICK, THEREFORE ALL OF YOU TRUE CHRISTIANS DO NOT NEED HEALTH INSURANCE, YOU ALREADY HAVE IT FROM THE HIGHEST SOURCE. HOWVER, YOU ARE COMMANDED BY THE WORDS OF JESUS TO HEAL THE SICK, FEED THE HUNGRY, GIVE YOUR COAT TO ANYONE WHO ASKS FOR IT AS WELL AS OFFER YOUR CLOAK ALSO. I MAY BE PREJUDICED BUT SOMEHOW I CANNOT SEE ANY OF YOU RIGHT-WING HYPOCRITES DOING ANY OF THE ABOVE."
Now I would like to see how many of you Pro Jesus posters actually believe in your god (oops son of god)to protect you from being sick. Please note that you should also be able to survive any poison you may consume because of your trust in Jesus.
If none of you believe/trust in these words of your Jesus, how can you claim to be a Christian?
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Posted by: Ahimsa on Oct 6, 2009 5:36 PM
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And the government is bad.
How do you call the leadership of a smaller group, if not government?
These people need health care to pay for their brain vitamins to see if they get it to grow.
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Posted by: Ahimsa on Oct 6, 2009 5:39 PM
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It preaches one thing and does another.
At different levels.
Some of it more, some of it less harmful.
It prohibits common sense and natural things, condones (or turns a blind eye) to immorality. From the Vatican to American evangelists.
Sad.
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