COMMENTS: 64
The Nightmare of Christianity: How Religious Indoctrination Led to Murder
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Editor's note: The following is an excerpt from Max Blumenthal's new book Republican Gommorah: Inside the Movement That Shattered the Party published by Nation Books.
A few miles down the road from Colorado Springs [a home to James Dobson's Focus on the Family], in the quiet bedroom community of Eldredge, a deeply disturbed young man named Matthew Murray followed the unfolding debacle at New Life Church [once under the stewardship of Pastor Ted Haggard] with an interest that bordered on obsession. Murray, a sallow-faced, bespectacled 24-year-old, had been indelibly scarred by a lifetime of psychological abuse at the hands of his charismatic Pentecostal parents. Murray's mind became crowded with thoughts of death, destruction, and the killings he would soon carry out in the name of avenging what he called his "nightmare of Christianity."
On an online chat room for former Pentecostals, Murray heaped contempt on his mother, Loretta, a physical therapist who homeschooled him to ensure that his contact with the outside world was severely limited. "My 'mother,'" Murray wrote, "is just a brainswashed [sic] church agent cun,t [sic]. The only reason she had me was because she wanted a body/soul she could train into being the next Billy Graham..."
He went on:
...my mother was into all the charismatic "fanatical evangelical" insanity. Her and her church believed that Satan and demons were everywhere in everything. The rules were VERY strict all the time. We couldn't have ANY christian or non-christian music at all except for a few charismatic worship CDs. There was physical abuse in my home. My mother although used psychotropic drugs because she somehow thought it would make it easier to control me (I've never been diagnosed with any mental illness either). Pastors would always come and interrogate me over video games or TV watching or other things. There were NO FRIENDS outside the church and family and even then only family members who were in the church. You could not trust anyone at all because anyone might be a spy.
An authoritarian Christian-right self-help guru named Bill Gothard created the home-schooling regimen implemented by Murray's parents. Like his ally James Dobson, Gothard first grew popular during the 1960s by marketing his program to worried evangelical parents as anti-hippie insurance for adolescent children. Based on the theocratic teachings of R. J. Rushdoony, who devised Christian schools and home-schooling as the foundation of his Dominionist empire, Gothard's Basic Life Principles outlined an all-consuming environment that followers could embrace for the whole of their lives. According to Ron Henzel, a one-time Gothard follower who co-authored a devastating exposé about his former guru called A Matter of Basic Principles, under the rules, "large homeschooling families abstain from television, midwives are more important than doctors, traditional dating is forbidden, unmarried adults are 'under the authority of their parents' and live with them, divorced people can't remarry under any circumstance, and music has hardly changed at all since the late nineteenth century."
At the Charter School for Excellence, a school in South Florida inspired by Gothard's draconian principles that receives $800,000 in state funds each year, children are indoctrinated into a culture of absolute submission to authority almost as soon as they learn to speak. A song that the school's first-graders are required to recite goes as follows:
Obedience is listening attentively,
Obedience will take instructions joyfully,
Obedience heeds wishes of authorities,
Obedience will follow orders instantly.
For when I am busy at my work or play,
And someone calls my name, I'll answer right away!
I'll be ready with a smile to go the extra mile
As soon as I can say "Yes, sir!" "Yes ma am!"
Hup, two, three!
Former Arkansas governor and Republican presidential candidate Mike Huckabee is among the 2.5 million Americans who have attended Gothard's Basic Seminar. According to Huckabee, who once earmarked state funds to distribute Gothard's literature in Arkansas prisons, Gothard was responsible for "some of the best programs for instilling character into people." But to the deeply alienated Murray, Gothard was the original source of his pathology. "I believe that the truth needs to be exposed," Murray wrote in a September 2006 discussion forum of recovering Gothard followers. "People need to see through errornious [sic] and destructive doctrines and teachings including Bill Gothard's."
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Posted by: Blacktiger1 on Sep 14, 2009 2:27 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Christians in name only; They are not Christlike though!
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» RE: Christians in name only; They are not Christlike though!
Posted by: rhinojos
» They were Christians through and through
Posted by: cdmsr
» Imagine No Religion
Posted by: redhead1954
» RE: Imagine No Religion: I concur. Peace would even break out.
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» RE: Whew!!!!!
Posted by: koolwoman
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Posted by: peridot on Sep 14, 2009 3:39 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Diagnosis: ABSENT
Posted by: cdmsr
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Posted by: horton on Sep 14, 2009 4:22 AM
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» Perhaps we can broach into Zionism & Apartheid Israel someday???
Posted by: JohnTruth2001
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Posted by: Nigelthebriton on Sep 14, 2009 5:01 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm the Christian I am (Anglican) high church, because I don't want to be God - I just want to serve and follow him.
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» Looking for world power!
Posted by: luzmejor
» RE: "... an absolutist authoritarianism kind of government"...
Posted by: gazooks
» RE: Looking for something...YOUR QUOTE MAKES NO SENSE
Posted by: maribelle
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Posted by: terradea42 on Sep 14, 2009 5:07 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If one of these fundies (one who really believes the BS) gets into the White House, we are doomed. Christianity is NOT consistent with democracy in any way.
And my message to you Christians out there ... Murray should be your hero. He sent all those "holy spirit-filled" soldiers for Christ to be with God ... and being with God is the greatest thing of all, right?
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Posted by: tomrlove on Sep 14, 2009 6:12 AM
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Then again, reading Mein Kamph will show you that Hitler was a fundamentalist who believed he was doing God's work.
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Posted by: Moonray on Sep 14, 2009 6:16 AM
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And the recent effort to focus the evangelical movement on Israel -- specifically, doing whatever is necessary to defeat Israel's enemies -- seems just too convenient to be faith-based.
Maybe it was inevitable that conservative Christianity -- that motley movement of illogical and passionate fanatics -- would become easy pickings for sophisticated indoctrination teams motivated by more worldly concerns. Abundant confirmation was provided by this weekend's gathering in Washington of those many weirdly disgruntled folks who are angry but aren't able to say precisely what they're angry about.
And the icing on the cake is that Americans are forced to subsidize all this with our tax dollars!
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» RE: Fundie movement could be bankrolled by foreign extremists
Posted by: iolanthe
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Posted by: laurenlk on Sep 14, 2009 6:24 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And his poor parents are just trying to cope with the atrocity that their son caused. They didn't beat him, they didn't starve him. If he had been normal he just would've left the church. Maybe being Christian for those years put off the breakdown; maybe if he had been allowed to indulge in drugs and porn earlier he would've cracked earlier. But I'm not blaming the drugs and porn either. He was a crazy. He alone is responsible for what he did. What's wrong with our culture that we have to assign blame for random violence. No one MADE him kill people.
When his dad said "The lesson is that unforgiveness leads to this bitterness and then opens you up to the spirit of Satan, to the spirit of whatever, and when that occurs, it becomes a power that people cannot control." All he was saying was that his son was bitter and couldn't forgive people. If you are like that to a compulsive degree, you are a violent sociopath. Just because he calls violence the "spirit of Satan" doesn't make him wrong. It's just semantics. Um, anyone disagree: violence = bad and Satan = bad? Leave the people to their own worldview. Despite what this article says, this guy was NOTHING like the innocent kids he killed, who spent their days trying to help and serve others. He was a cracked egg, clearly selfish and malevolent.
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» RE: Yeah, it was the Jesus and not the porn and drugs, sure.
Posted by: Llama11
» RE: Yeah, it was the Jesus and not the porn and drugs, sure.
Posted by: rhinojos
» RE: Yeah, it was the Jesus and not the porn and drugs, sure.
Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: Yeah, it was the Jesus and not the porn and drugs, sure.
Posted by: paulaH
» RE: Yeah, it was the Jesus and not the porn and drugs, sure.
Posted by: clvngodess
» religious fundamentalism of any kind
Posted by: Ruthanda
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Posted by: vyckie on Sep 14, 2009 6:28 AM
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Posted by: Purple Girl on Sep 14, 2009 6:30 AM
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At one time it was only the Satanist who were forthright about their intentions- but who now can deny the Religious Rights doctrine is exactly the same.
It's as twisted as Charlie Mansons 'Religious' beliefs. Frankly I see no difference between the Satanist and the 'Evangeliials' both have a morbid facination with the End of Times, Expound the inevitablity of 'Pre Determination', Believe they will be 'saved' and Ultimately rule the World, and are willing to take up arms,create Choas and bloodshed to bring it to fruition.That doesn't sound like 'The Meek' to me.
Charlie Manson used Bible Verse and exercised control over his followers too.
this poor kid fell into the same doctrine- just working the other side of the Armegeddon Philosophy and Agenda.
Can't have an Apocalypse if you don't have an 'adversay'....Two sides to the same coin.
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» RE: Two sides to the Same Coin
Posted by: Johnny Hempseed
» RE: Two sides to the Same Coin
Posted by: cmaciain
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Sep 14, 2009 7:08 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How is it possible for a society to actually go BACKWARD? As seems evident by the sad story in this article?
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Sep 14, 2009 7:25 AM
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» RE: USING RELIGION AS THE BIG STICK
Posted by: mapsguy1955
» RE: USING RELIGION AS THE BIG STICK
Posted by: paulaH
» RE: USING RELIGION AS THE BIG STICK
Posted by: Malamute
» RE: USING RELIGION AS THE BIG STICK
Posted by: paulaH
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Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN on Sep 14, 2009 7:27 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He should've killed his parents for their mental and emotional butchery.
And, that would have been only a good start.
Those creepy christers do this to others so, an eye for an eye, a life for a life.
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Posted by: J- on Sep 14, 2009 7:26 AM
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I'm not a psychiatrist, so admittedly I can't make a diagnosis, but people who talk back to voices only they can hear usually need to be treated for schizophrenia, and take anti-psychotic medication.
The church he was in failed him, as did his parents by not recognizing there was a medical problem here. Other school/workplace/church shooters have had similar diagnoses, and the one that comes to mind is Kip Kinkel. He was clearly schizophrenic and needed constant supervision and treatment, which he didn't get.
Psychosis and schizophrenia are medical problems that need medical treatment. These are life threatening ailments, not only to the sufferer, but possibly to others around them. The money spent to keep many of these people under treatment and on the medications they require is small compared with the damage done when they finally lose their grip.
Don't get me wrong, there's a lot that can be said against the Dominionists and the Reconstructionists and the way right Evangelicals in general. But this, to me, seems to be more of a public health issue.
In a country that has no public health system to speak of.
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» Wrong. Dead Wrong.
Posted by: Pissed Off Woman
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Posted by: melloe2 on Sep 14, 2009 8:21 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is practiced by all too many on the right is NOT Christianity, but some bastardized form of religiosity falsely calling themselves christians. All too often, the leaders are in it for the $$$ and power.
"You shall know them by their works"
For every religious nut calling themselves Christians doing harm to themselves or others, there are many going quietly about doing good, feeding the poor, giving their time and effort for good. They don't make the headlines. The same can probably said about Muslims or Jews.
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» RE: Another poorly titled article
Posted by: paulaH
» RE: Another poorly titled article
Posted by: masthead
» RE: Another poorly titled article
Posted by: paulaH
» RE: "NOT Christianity"
Posted by: Ruthanda
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Posted by: drricklippin on Sep 14, 2009 8:40 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So our only hope for worldwide future generations is engaging in healthy neuro-development from in-utero to age 10
see the the good work of David Boulton for a good start on attaining this.
Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton,Pa
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» RE: Organized Religion(S) Are Mind Poison....
Posted by: drricklippin
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Posted by: peacelf on Sep 14, 2009 9:03 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If this isn't confusing enough for a fundamentalist who is taught 'love your neighbor as yourself' then told to hate gays, abortion doctors, non-Christians, etc. etc. etc.. The equally held contradictions are not simply Orwellian doublethink, but a neurosis that can most certainly lead to insane acts like Murray's.
As the article pointed out, the mainstream media has yet to honestly debate the underlying problems associated with killers who target specific institutions, including the 9/11 fundamentalists. The violent terrorist plot is symbolic of a symptom of social disfunction.
Murray picked his former church and more specifically his former self, young fervent Christian missionaries. The 9/11 terrorists attacked the World Trade Centers and the Pentagon. Remember, too, that, nationally, we couldn't ask the question: "Why did they attack us?"
I am reminded of the words of Gandhi, "The only devils in the world are the ones in our own hearts; it is there we should begin to fight." But, it is easier for Christians to blame an external "Satan" for their sins than face up to one's own faults, or worse, the world's sins--which is all of ours collectively.
Imperialists, fascists, and other totalitarians have no qualms or guilt about using religion to stir fanaticism for imperialist's selfish goals. But we can't fight it by ignoring or mocking its hypocrisy. We must engage it on its own terms, through a more accurate interpretation of Jesus' teachings.
As a former Evangelical Christian, who still attends church, we can challenge the dark side of Imperialistic Christianity from inside by debunking imperialist tendencies in the Bible. It requires one to be thoroughly versed in Bible teachings and church history. And, it requires us to be loving, caring, compassionate toward all humans, especially those engaged in wrathful violent thoughts.
Imperialistic Christianity is floundering and in a desperate attempt to gain power, the Christian imperialists are hunkering down behind their fanaticism. Mocking them and abusing them will not change their minds. They need good reasons to think differently.
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» RE: Imperialistic Christianity is dying
Posted by: masthead
» RE: Imperialistic Christianity is dying
Posted by: peacelf
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Posted by: Blacktiger1 on Sep 14, 2009 9:30 AM
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Posted by: earthpainter on Sep 14, 2009 9:39 AM
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Posted by: JohnTruth2001 on Sep 14, 2009 9:43 AM
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Posted by: jeremymr on Sep 14, 2009 10:32 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sam Harris - Jesus H. Christ I want to call him a god-send. Sam Harris says many things I've always wanted to say but couldn't get the words in the right order.
As an adult I read Darwin's On the Origin of Species and was truly humbled. I'd heard about Darwin from the pulpit throughout my childhood. I thought I knew at least something about his work. But upon finishing it, I realized nothing I'd heard about Darwin in church was but a lie.
I share in common with the killer, the experience of being raided. My father found centerfolds of mine, and took me in front of the pastor and church elders. The funny thing was, the church [assembly of god] is not quite as radical as the Gothard system. So the local church leaders were a little taken aback, like, maybe you should deal with this privately.
There is no doubt this is form of child abuse. I had dozens if not hundreds of cd's, tapes, and vhs tapes lifted. I was made to smash them with a mallet when they were found but I kept buying them. I had a small tv that got raided - that was really bad.
I had a girlfriend, during a "raid" some letters were discovered. Again, to the church leaders (different church this time) and my girlfriend was forced to apologize in front of the whole church. And all we did was kiss, but she was not allowed to say *what* actually happened, only "moral failing" so everybody thought we were fucking.
These people should be locked up - not for retribution but rehabilitation. Christianity and all religion is actually a mental disorder, or as Harris said a conversational disorder. It's not considered "polite" to criticize religion.
Munchhausen by proxy operates by the same pathological process as the Christian proselytizer. First, do the damage (you're a sinner, you're going to hell). Then offer the solution : give us 10% of your money and accept "jesus" in your "heart" and be saved. But all you are saved from is the mistaken notion they gave you!
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Posted by: JohnTodd on Sep 14, 2009 12:57 PM
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"I could not understand why John Lennon had said that the Beatles were "bigger than Jesus."
-Mark David Chapman.
(I hope this material is on-topic enough for this discussion. My apologies to all if I have strayed too far. This was just to point out another example of religious whackery.)
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» RE: Mark David Chapman
Posted by: Blacktiger1
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Posted by: willymack on Sep 14, 2009 10:22 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Remember the Crusades?
The Inquisition?
The "witch" burnings and hangings right here in the good ol' USA?
This is what happens when NUTS are allowed to take over, and use their armies of ninnies and homicidal morons to enforce their psychotic delusions.
If we don't take care, it'll happen all over again and right here. It won't be pretty either.
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» It looks like you're on the way to advocating a witch hunt here...
Posted by: Tim V
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Posted by: clarence on Sep 14, 2009 11:15 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Every time He thinks it might be time for a return visit, he sees all these nutballs walking around with them and thinks, "Been there, done that, thanks but no thanks."
I wear a little statue of Mary Magdalene around my neck.
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Posted by: MT512 on Sep 17, 2009 11:29 AM
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- from a brilliant comic by Clay Butler which I sadly cannot find online.
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Posted by: MotherLodeBeth on Sep 19, 2009 12:08 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Nightmare of Islam: How Religious Indoctrination Led to Murder. Or replace Islam with Judaism, Hinduism or even How Being Indoctrinated in Atheism Let to Murder.
One size does NOT fit all!
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Posted by: MotherLodeBeth on Sep 19, 2009 12:31 PM
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Having said this, I do recommend the book Republican Gommorah: Inside the Movement That Shattered the Party. And remember there have been some well known news stories about secular over achievers who have gone off the deep end, but we do not label all high archiving men and women as being on the verge of doing something horrid.
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Posted by: ronniejw on Sep 19, 2009 2:39 PM
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Ronnie Wright
World Change Café
PS. The preacher that kicked me out of church had to resign two years later because he got caught stealing forty thousand dollars from the church. Of course he was given a big farewell event; they forgive their own.
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Posted by: sweet_byrd on Oct 9, 2009 4:26 PM
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So (among other things) not being an extrovert is "crime" enough to be a YWAM reject. And I really like how this all came in the context of seemingly psychotic-type symptoms. However in REAL life, introversion does not equal psychosis not any other disease. It is normal to be an introvert.
And then about Tiffany Johnson - one of Murray's first victims - do we really need to know that she was "affable" and made a regular point of ministering to adolescent skateboarders? Would her life be worth less if she were solitary and bookish?
Introversion is a normal and healthy way to be. To all the extroverts out there: Please stop seeing us as sick, instead of different.
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Posted by: Blacktiger1 on Sep 14, 2009 2:27 AM
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» RE: Christians in name only; They are not Christlike though!
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» RE: Christians in name only; They are not Christlike though!
Posted by: rhinojos
» They were Christians through and through
Posted by: cdmsr
» Imagine No Religion
Posted by: redhead1954
» RE: Imagine No Religion: I concur. Peace would even break out.
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» RE: Whew!!!!!
Posted by: koolwoman
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Posted by: peridot on Sep 14, 2009 3:39 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Diagnosis: ABSENT
Posted by: cdmsr
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Posted by: horton on Sep 14, 2009 4:22 AM
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» Perhaps we can broach into Zionism & Apartheid Israel someday???
Posted by: JohnTruth2001
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Posted by: Nigelthebriton on Sep 14, 2009 5:01 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm the Christian I am (Anglican) high church, because I don't want to be God - I just want to serve and follow him.
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» Looking for world power!
Posted by: luzmejor
» RE: "... an absolutist authoritarianism kind of government"...
Posted by: gazooks
» RE: Looking for something...YOUR QUOTE MAKES NO SENSE
Posted by: maribelle
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Posted by: terradea42 on Sep 14, 2009 5:07 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If one of these fundies (one who really believes the BS) gets into the White House, we are doomed. Christianity is NOT consistent with democracy in any way.
And my message to you Christians out there ... Murray should be your hero. He sent all those "holy spirit-filled" soldiers for Christ to be with God ... and being with God is the greatest thing of all, right?
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Posted by: tomrlove on Sep 14, 2009 6:12 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Then again, reading Mein Kamph will show you that Hitler was a fundamentalist who believed he was doing God's work.
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Posted by: Moonray on Sep 14, 2009 6:16 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And the recent effort to focus the evangelical movement on Israel -- specifically, doing whatever is necessary to defeat Israel's enemies -- seems just too convenient to be faith-based.
Maybe it was inevitable that conservative Christianity -- that motley movement of illogical and passionate fanatics -- would become easy pickings for sophisticated indoctrination teams motivated by more worldly concerns. Abundant confirmation was provided by this weekend's gathering in Washington of those many weirdly disgruntled folks who are angry but aren't able to say precisely what they're angry about.
And the icing on the cake is that Americans are forced to subsidize all this with our tax dollars!
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» RE: Fundie movement could be bankrolled by foreign extremists
Posted by: iolanthe
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Posted by: laurenlk on Sep 14, 2009 6:24 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And his poor parents are just trying to cope with the atrocity that their son caused. They didn't beat him, they didn't starve him. If he had been normal he just would've left the church. Maybe being Christian for those years put off the breakdown; maybe if he had been allowed to indulge in drugs and porn earlier he would've cracked earlier. But I'm not blaming the drugs and porn either. He was a crazy. He alone is responsible for what he did. What's wrong with our culture that we have to assign blame for random violence. No one MADE him kill people.
When his dad said "The lesson is that unforgiveness leads to this bitterness and then opens you up to the spirit of Satan, to the spirit of whatever, and when that occurs, it becomes a power that people cannot control." All he was saying was that his son was bitter and couldn't forgive people. If you are like that to a compulsive degree, you are a violent sociopath. Just because he calls violence the "spirit of Satan" doesn't make him wrong. It's just semantics. Um, anyone disagree: violence = bad and Satan = bad? Leave the people to their own worldview. Despite what this article says, this guy was NOTHING like the innocent kids he killed, who spent their days trying to help and serve others. He was a cracked egg, clearly selfish and malevolent.
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» RE: Yeah, it was the Jesus and not the porn and drugs, sure.
Posted by: Llama11
» RE: Yeah, it was the Jesus and not the porn and drugs, sure.
Posted by: rhinojos
» RE: Yeah, it was the Jesus and not the porn and drugs, sure.
Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: Yeah, it was the Jesus and not the porn and drugs, sure.
Posted by: paulaH
» RE: Yeah, it was the Jesus and not the porn and drugs, sure.
Posted by: clvngodess
» religious fundamentalism of any kind
Posted by: Ruthanda
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Posted by: vyckie on Sep 14, 2009 6:28 AM
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Posted by: Purple Girl on Sep 14, 2009 6:30 AM
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At one time it was only the Satanist who were forthright about their intentions- but who now can deny the Religious Rights doctrine is exactly the same.
It's as twisted as Charlie Mansons 'Religious' beliefs. Frankly I see no difference between the Satanist and the 'Evangeliials' both have a morbid facination with the End of Times, Expound the inevitablity of 'Pre Determination', Believe they will be 'saved' and Ultimately rule the World, and are willing to take up arms,create Choas and bloodshed to bring it to fruition.That doesn't sound like 'The Meek' to me.
Charlie Manson used Bible Verse and exercised control over his followers too.
this poor kid fell into the same doctrine- just working the other side of the Armegeddon Philosophy and Agenda.
Can't have an Apocalypse if you don't have an 'adversay'....Two sides to the same coin.
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» RE: Two sides to the Same Coin
Posted by: Johnny Hempseed
» RE: Two sides to the Same Coin
Posted by: cmaciain
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Sep 14, 2009 7:08 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How is it possible for a society to actually go BACKWARD? As seems evident by the sad story in this article?
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Sep 14, 2009 7:25 AM
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» RE: USING RELIGION AS THE BIG STICK
Posted by: mapsguy1955
» RE: USING RELIGION AS THE BIG STICK
Posted by: paulaH
» RE: USING RELIGION AS THE BIG STICK
Posted by: Malamute
» RE: USING RELIGION AS THE BIG STICK
Posted by: paulaH
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Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN on Sep 14, 2009 7:27 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He should've killed his parents for their mental and emotional butchery.
And, that would have been only a good start.
Those creepy christers do this to others so, an eye for an eye, a life for a life.
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Posted by: J- on Sep 14, 2009 7:26 AM
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I'm not a psychiatrist, so admittedly I can't make a diagnosis, but people who talk back to voices only they can hear usually need to be treated for schizophrenia, and take anti-psychotic medication.
The church he was in failed him, as did his parents by not recognizing there was a medical problem here. Other school/workplace/church shooters have had similar diagnoses, and the one that comes to mind is Kip Kinkel. He was clearly schizophrenic and needed constant supervision and treatment, which he didn't get.
Psychosis and schizophrenia are medical problems that need medical treatment. These are life threatening ailments, not only to the sufferer, but possibly to others around them. The money spent to keep many of these people under treatment and on the medications they require is small compared with the damage done when they finally lose their grip.
Don't get me wrong, there's a lot that can be said against the Dominionists and the Reconstructionists and the way right Evangelicals in general. But this, to me, seems to be more of a public health issue.
In a country that has no public health system to speak of.
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» Wrong. Dead Wrong.
Posted by: Pissed Off Woman
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Posted by: melloe2 on Sep 14, 2009 8:21 AM
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What is practiced by all too many on the right is NOT Christianity, but some bastardized form of religiosity falsely calling themselves christians. All too often, the leaders are in it for the $$$ and power.
"You shall know them by their works"
For every religious nut calling themselves Christians doing harm to themselves or others, there are many going quietly about doing good, feeding the poor, giving their time and effort for good. They don't make the headlines. The same can probably said about Muslims or Jews.
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» RE: Another poorly titled article
Posted by: paulaH
» RE: Another poorly titled article
Posted by: masthead
» RE: Another poorly titled article
Posted by: paulaH
» RE: "NOT Christianity"
Posted by: Ruthanda
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Posted by: drricklippin on Sep 14, 2009 8:40 AM
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So our only hope for worldwide future generations is engaging in healthy neuro-development from in-utero to age 10
see the the good work of David Boulton for a good start on attaining this.
Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton,Pa
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» RE: Organized Religion(S) Are Mind Poison....
Posted by: drricklippin
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Posted by: peacelf on Sep 14, 2009 9:03 AM
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If this isn't confusing enough for a fundamentalist who is taught 'love your neighbor as yourself' then told to hate gays, abortion doctors, non-Christians, etc. etc. etc.. The equally held contradictions are not simply Orwellian doublethink, but a neurosis that can most certainly lead to insane acts like Murray's.
As the article pointed out, the mainstream media has yet to honestly debate the underlying problems associated with killers who target specific institutions, including the 9/11 fundamentalists. The violent terrorist plot is symbolic of a symptom of social disfunction.
Murray picked his former church and more specifically his former self, young fervent Christian missionaries. The 9/11 terrorists attacked the World Trade Centers and the Pentagon. Remember, too, that, nationally, we couldn't ask the question: "Why did they attack us?"
I am reminded of the words of Gandhi, "The only devils in the world are the ones in our own hearts; it is there we should begin to fight." But, it is easier for Christians to blame an external "Satan" for their sins than face up to one's own faults, or worse, the world's sins--which is all of ours collectively.
Imperialists, fascists, and other totalitarians have no qualms or guilt about using religion to stir fanaticism for imperialist's selfish goals. But we can't fight it by ignoring or mocking its hypocrisy. We must engage it on its own terms, through a more accurate interpretation of Jesus' teachings.
As a former Evangelical Christian, who still attends church, we can challenge the dark side of Imperialistic Christianity from inside by debunking imperialist tendencies in the Bible. It requires one to be thoroughly versed in Bible teachings and church history. And, it requires us to be loving, caring, compassionate toward all humans, especially those engaged in wrathful violent thoughts.
Imperialistic Christianity is floundering and in a desperate attempt to gain power, the Christian imperialists are hunkering down behind their fanaticism. Mocking them and abusing them will not change their minds. They need good reasons to think differently.
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» RE: Imperialistic Christianity is dying
Posted by: masthead
» RE: Imperialistic Christianity is dying
Posted by: peacelf
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Posted by: Blacktiger1 on Sep 14, 2009 9:30 AM
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Posted by: earthpainter on Sep 14, 2009 9:39 AM
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Posted by: JohnTruth2001 on Sep 14, 2009 9:43 AM
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Posted by: jeremymr on Sep 14, 2009 10:32 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sam Harris - Jesus H. Christ I want to call him a god-send. Sam Harris says many things I've always wanted to say but couldn't get the words in the right order.
As an adult I read Darwin's On the Origin of Species and was truly humbled. I'd heard about Darwin from the pulpit throughout my childhood. I thought I knew at least something about his work. But upon finishing it, I realized nothing I'd heard about Darwin in church was but a lie.
I share in common with the killer, the experience of being raided. My father found centerfolds of mine, and took me in front of the pastor and church elders. The funny thing was, the church [assembly of god] is not quite as radical as the Gothard system. So the local church leaders were a little taken aback, like, maybe you should deal with this privately.
There is no doubt this is form of child abuse. I had dozens if not hundreds of cd's, tapes, and vhs tapes lifted. I was made to smash them with a mallet when they were found but I kept buying them. I had a small tv that got raided - that was really bad.
I had a girlfriend, during a "raid" some letters were discovered. Again, to the church leaders (different church this time) and my girlfriend was forced to apologize in front of the whole church. And all we did was kiss, but she was not allowed to say *what* actually happened, only "moral failing" so everybody thought we were fucking.
These people should be locked up - not for retribution but rehabilitation. Christianity and all religion is actually a mental disorder, or as Harris said a conversational disorder. It's not considered "polite" to criticize religion.
Munchhausen by proxy operates by the same pathological process as the Christian proselytizer. First, do the damage (you're a sinner, you're going to hell). Then offer the solution : give us 10% of your money and accept "jesus" in your "heart" and be saved. But all you are saved from is the mistaken notion they gave you!
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Posted by: JohnTodd on Sep 14, 2009 12:57 PM
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"I could not understand why John Lennon had said that the Beatles were "bigger than Jesus."
-Mark David Chapman.
(I hope this material is on-topic enough for this discussion. My apologies to all if I have strayed too far. This was just to point out another example of religious whackery.)
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» RE: Mark David Chapman
Posted by: Blacktiger1
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Posted by: willymack on Sep 14, 2009 10:22 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Remember the Crusades?
The Inquisition?
The "witch" burnings and hangings right here in the good ol' USA?
This is what happens when NUTS are allowed to take over, and use their armies of ninnies and homicidal morons to enforce their psychotic delusions.
If we don't take care, it'll happen all over again and right here. It won't be pretty either.
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» It looks like you're on the way to advocating a witch hunt here...
Posted by: Tim V
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Posted by: clarence on Sep 14, 2009 11:15 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Every time He thinks it might be time for a return visit, he sees all these nutballs walking around with them and thinks, "Been there, done that, thanks but no thanks."
I wear a little statue of Mary Magdalene around my neck.
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Posted by: MT512 on Sep 17, 2009 11:29 AM
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- from a brilliant comic by Clay Butler which I sadly cannot find online.
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Posted by: MotherLodeBeth on Sep 19, 2009 12:08 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Nightmare of Islam: How Religious Indoctrination Led to Murder. Or replace Islam with Judaism, Hinduism or even How Being Indoctrinated in Atheism Let to Murder.
One size does NOT fit all!
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Posted by: MotherLodeBeth on Sep 19, 2009 12:31 PM
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Having said this, I do recommend the book Republican Gommorah: Inside the Movement That Shattered the Party. And remember there have been some well known news stories about secular over achievers who have gone off the deep end, but we do not label all high archiving men and women as being on the verge of doing something horrid.
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Posted by: ronniejw on Sep 19, 2009 2:39 PM
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Ronnie Wright
World Change Café
PS. The preacher that kicked me out of church had to resign two years later because he got caught stealing forty thousand dollars from the church. Of course he was given a big farewell event; they forgive their own.
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Posted by: sweet_byrd on Oct 9, 2009 4:26 PM
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So (among other things) not being an extrovert is "crime" enough to be a YWAM reject. And I really like how this all came in the context of seemingly psychotic-type symptoms. However in REAL life, introversion does not equal psychosis not any other disease. It is normal to be an introvert.
And then about Tiffany Johnson - one of Murray's first victims - do we really need to know that she was "affable" and made a regular point of ministering to adolescent skateboarders? Would her life be worth less if she were solitary and bookish?
Introversion is a normal and healthy way to be. To all the extroverts out there: Please stop seeing us as sick, instead of different.
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