COMMENTS: 290
Obama Is Leading the U.S. Into a Hellish Quagmire
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That makes 120,000 American military personnel fighting in Afghanistan, a figure higher than the Soviet peak troop figure of 115,000 during their catastrophic 9-year war. Just this week, General McChrystal, whom Obama appointed to command American forces in Afghanistan, is talking ofsending tens of thousands more American troops. At the height of the Soviet occupation,Western intelligence experts estimated that the Soviets had 115,000 troops in Afghanistan -- but like America, the more troops and the longer the Soviets stayed, the more doomed their military mission became.
We're also heading into the same casualty trap as the Soviets did. This summer has been the deadliest in the eight-year war for American troops. While the number of uniformed Americans killed in combat in Afghanistan may seem comparatively low -- just over 800, most of those since 2007 -- the Soviets also suffered relatively light casualties. Between December 1979 and February 1989, just 13,000 Soviets were killed in Afghanistan, a seemingly paltry figure when you compare it to the 20 million Soviets killed in World War Two, and the millions upon millions who died in the Civil War and Stalin's Terror. Unlike America, Russians have a reputation for tolerating appalling casualty figures -- and yet the war in Afghanistan destroyed the Soviet Empire. Which only proves that crude number comparisons explain nothing at all in warfare today, particularly when that war is an occupation of an alien environment like Afghanistan.
Why hasn't anyone pointed out that America's troop commitment now exceeds the Red Army's? For some inexplicable reason the corporate media has decided to shuffle the figures and exclude the US military contractors from the total figure of US military personnel. It makes no logical sense -- we still count the Hessians among the British forces in the War of Independence. It's as if the only thing left that Americans are capable of is accounting fraud -- the only talent we perfected over the past decade was how to move all the bad numbers off the official books, as if it's become an instinctive reflex.
But just as those accounting tricks didn't change all those banks' and funds' insolvency, so the American media's troop-counting tricks, in which contractors are "off books," can't make the disaster in Afghanistan disappear. We're already more deeply invested in our Afghanistan war than the Russians were, and as we head into our ninth year -- the magic number for when the Soviets pulled out and their empire collapsed -- President Obama is dragging the country deeper into that disaster. (Moreover, if you add in all the NATO personnel -- useless as they are as a "fighting" force -- the number of Western troops already far exceeds the number deployed in the Soviet Union's "unwinnable" war.)
The Afghanistan War has somehow escaped most of America's attention. People just assumed that since Obama is a decent guy with a sharper mind than Bush's, he must know what he's doing in Afghanistan, and his intentions can't be bad -- so why bother paying attention, when we have all these other problems here at home? Besides, war isn't a fun topic anymore. Thanks to Bush and Cheney, any talk of war is a total bummer, whether you're from the right or the left. And Americans don't like bummers -- instead, America is always "moving on" from its bummers. Nothing bums Americans out more than losing wars, which helps explain why Afghanistan is the most we've-moved-on subject of our time. The problem is that you can't move on from something while it's still a problem -- but try telling that to a nation of delusionals.
Remember how long after Vietnam it took for for Americans to "move on" and get their war appetite back on? It took a decade before we could talk about 'Nam again, and that probably would have gone on longer if it wasn't for the kick-ass performance by Robert Duvall as Col Kilgore stirring a new generation's blood lust. (For a taste of just how cinematic this budding tragedy could be,< a href="http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2008/10/in_afghanistan_with_the_isaf.html">click here to check out these amazing photos.) We suffered then from "Vietnam Syndrome," which was a strange way of assigning a mental illness to a totally rational aversion to invading far-away countries. This time it's going to be even worse, though: given our 0-2 war record this decade, and the shameful way that America's pseudo-imperialists snatched defeat from the jaws of victory in Iraq and Afghanistan, like a nation of Bill Buckners, it's no wonder no one here wants to talk about Afghanistan.
Since we've already long ago "moved on" from Afghanistan, it means that our agony of defeat there will be far more painful than anything we've experienced before. The most frustrating thing is how obvious this catastrophe is: Obama is leading America into a predictable sequel of superpower-loses-in-hellish-Third-World-quagmire: he's doubling down troops in a war fewer people understand, a war that's growingincreasingly unpopularas the casualty count accelerates; investing more into a corrupt regime which just stole elections in a way that would make the hardliners in neighboring Iran blush; suicide bombers are beingdirected by the Afghan defense department to blow up American journalists, leading to a dusty version of the ol' "who's in charge here?" "I thought you were"; and now, the American right wing -- the only thing that approximates a real opposition this country -- is having a collective Walter Cronkite moment, withGeorge Will of all people leading the call for the West to pull its forces out now in order to limit the defeat's damage. George fucking Will as the conscience of our nation?! This must be what Marx meant by tragedy turning to farce.
And through it all, the Russians must beenjoying America's decline more than anyone, after all the gloating we did over their downfall: in our two nations' ongoing Tom & Jerry Show, America's looming defeat is shaping up to be Russia's revenge on America's revenge for what Russia did to America in Vietnam.
Which reminds me of an interview a couple of years ago I did with a former top Soviet advisor to the puppet Afghan government's General Staff, Pyotr Goncharov. I was still in Moscow then, and I was working on a story to counter the then-popular neocon meme that Iraq wasn't really the disastrous war that its critics said it was because after all, "only" 4,000 Americans died there. A lot of Russian nationalists still argue that they could have won the war in Afghanistan and that it wasn't going so badly, given the low body count--and yet the empire collapsed there. I was curious why even a police state like the Soviet Union collapsed, and what lesson America could learn from that.
And this is where it got strange, because the first thing Goncharov said to me when I met him was, "I just want to say to you that what the Americans are doing in Afghanistan is perfect. You're doing everything right that we did wrong over there. You're not making any of our mistakes, and with my experience there, I can only commend you." Goncharov told me he was the top Soviet advisor to the Afghan regime's joint chiefs of staff from 1986-9, the year of the pullout, and today he is a leading military analyst on Afghanistan issues for state RIA-Novosti. He wasn't interested in my line of questioning about why low body counts are so devastating to superpowers -- instead, all he wanted to talk about was what a great man John McCain is. "Everything he proposes for the war in Afghanistan is exactly right. He really knows what he's talking about," Goncharov said. Then his otherwise cheerful face took on a confused almost dour expression: "But I have to ask: is it really possible that Americans will elect Barack Obama? Because this would be a disaster for the world. If Obama is president and he withdraws from Afghanistan, the whole world will pay, much worse than we all paid after the Soviet pullout. It can't really be possible that Obama will win, could it? I can't believe America would do that."
Now we know how it really turned out: Barack Obama won the presidency, but in terms of dealing with Bush's war legacy it may as well have been McCain. Because Obama's Afghanistan War policy is indistinguishable from McCain's, which is why McCain has nothing but good things to say about Obama's conduct of the war. I always wondered after that interview with Goncharov what his reasoning was for supporting another Republican president, given the disaster America suffered under Bush: did he want America to get sucked into Afghanistan and collapse like his country did, out of vengeful spite? Or was Goncharov being sincere, as I think he was? My guess is that Goncharov really wanted McCain and genuinely liked him, because McCain was someone a military man like Goncharov could understand. And anyway, as intelligent and refined as Goncharov was, he proved what Obama is proving today: we never learn from our mistakes, as much as we pretend we do.
Call it "Afghanistan Syndrome": Twenty years ago, Afghanistan was Russia's "Vietnam"; today, Afghanistan is becoming America's "Afghanistan." Obama is walking into this disaster like one of the doomed victims from the Scream series: everyone, including the protagonists, knows that it's going to be a disaster, everyone's seen the script so many times they can recite it from heart. And yet Obama's leading the nation into the trap all over again. And Obama can't even be compared to LBJ, who at least managed to give millions of Americans Medicare. What will Obama's legacy be? The PPIP program? Protecting AIG's bonuses?
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Posted by: peridot on Sep 3, 2009 2:46 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: CynicI on Sep 3, 2009 8:05 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why? Have I really hit the nail on the head?
If you don't see anymore of my comments, you know they have succeeded cause I care about this very issue so I have no intentions of stopping posting.
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» RE: Looks like alternet is trying to block my continuing commenting...
Posted by: tony_opmoc
» Your probably right, but for some reason when I post a post like that, it all stops...
Posted by: CynicI
» They've always had a problem with posting links for years.
Posted by: maxpayne
» Its early yet, notice they come a bit later when most of the posting is done....
Posted by: CynicI
» RE: Its early yet, notice they come a bit later when most of the posting is done....
Posted by: tony_opmoc
» Yes, the brits are so polite and civil. I was married to a brit for a long time...
Posted by: CynicI
» Keep up the good work, CynicI
Posted by: MaxBridges
» Well, if it isn't Max, the "no planer" nut. So how's insanity treating you, Max?
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Still standing TALL AND STRONG just like the vigilante in the game sir !
Posted by: maxpayne
» Still working on that reading comprehension thing, MP?
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Couldn't tell by the way you'd generally post. My apologies.
Posted by: maxpayne
» Next time, look at how the posts line up. That's your clue.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Proof of the disinformation warrior's performance objectives...
Posted by: MaxBridges
» Correction: Proof of the disinformation warrior's performance objectives...
Posted by: MaxBridges
» Lying again, Max? You're the one who admits you're a "no planer".
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Spinning, twisting, and Lying again, GuitarBill
Posted by: MaxBridges
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Posted by: mmckinl on Sep 3, 2009 1:22 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
David Swanson
September 02, 2009 "TomDispatch"
"If Bush were in his third term, we would already have seen him propose, yet again, the largest military budget in the history of the world. We might well have seen him pretend he was including war funding in the standard budget, and then claim that one final supplemental war budget was still needed, immediately after which he would surely announce that yet another war supplemental bill would be needed down the road. And of course, he would have held onto his Secretary of Defense from his second term, Robert Gates, to run the Pentagon, keep our ongoing wars rolling along, and oversee the better part of our public budget.
Bush would undoubtedly be following through on the agreement he signed with Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki for all U.S. troops to leave Iraq by the end of 2011 (except where he chose not to follow through). His generals would, in the meantime, be leaking word that the United States never intended to actually leave. He'd surely be maintaining current levels of troops in Iraq, while sending thousands more troops to Afghanistan and talking about a new "surge" there. He'd probably also be escalating the campaign he launched late in his second term to use drone aircraft to illegally and repeatedly strike into Pakistan's tribal borderlands with Afghanistan."
~~~~
Read the whole article ... should you want the truth ...
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» RE: Thanks for Posting That.
Posted by: oregoncharles
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Posted by: and_abottleofrum on Sep 3, 2009 1:37 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama, to put it bluntly, is an oreo cookie. He's not authentic in any way that he's presented himself. He is just a great presentation, a talented actor, using his skills to dupe the gullible. He got my hopes up during the election and I've been kicking myself for this since about March, when it was clear he is a triangulator estranged from the meaning of true change.
His radical pastor would have been a far better choice for President than phony Obama.
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» Go (if you would) to youtube and watch the Obama Deception...
Posted by: zigy
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Posted by: Carts on Sep 3, 2009 2:01 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The folly of war,
America will fall,
As Empires before.
(May it happen soon)
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» Be careful, the whole plan is for America to be destroyed...
Posted by: CynicI
» Oh yes, "prophit(0)" knows the plan. In fact, "prophit(0)" knows EVERYTHING
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Israel takes a piss in your living room
Posted by: weathered
» Never mind dithered. He's AlterNet's local version of National Socialist lite.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Tell us which evidence you want??? Organ harvesting??? Sex slave trade? Political control???
Posted by: CynicI
» Let's see your alleged "evidence"--you anti-American, terrorist apologizing piece of filth.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» An Explanation of the Truthiness movement and Prophit(o)
Posted by: EncinoM
» She's sick--mentally ill.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Oh, so any source overseas that I give you will not be suitable, is that what your saying?
Posted by: CynicI
» No source you give is suitable, because you're a liar and a propagandist.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Ok, so much and so little time.... where oh where do I begin.....
Posted by: CynicI
» How does that pile of horse-**** prove that Israel is behind 911?
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Read my question above. I asked you which you wanted and you wouldn't give me an answer.....
Posted by: CynicI
» I told you what I want.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Here is something I am sure you don't want, but its going to blow your socks off.
Posted by: CynicI
» More quote mining, "prophit(0)"?
Posted by: GuitarBill
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Perry Logan on Sep 3, 2009 2:48 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Proud Cynthia McKinney voter here. :)
Here's proof that I'm Nostradamus--a video I did some eleven months ago, called The Democrats' Answer to George W. Bush.
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Posted by: tony_opmoc on Sep 3, 2009 3:04 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I know it seems a nutty conspiracy theory - but just look what the USA has done since 9/11?
Surely you didn't bring all this on yourselves - you ain't that daft.
Who's Dick Cheney really working for?
Tony
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» RE: Most Americans still think Obama Sin Laden Did 9/11 and He's Hiding out in Iraq Somewhere...
Posted by: weathered
» I Wrote The Following on September 11th 2001...
Posted by: tony_opmoc
» Osama is on the back 9
Posted by: weathered
» RE: We aren't?
Posted by: oregoncharles
Comments are closed-
Posted by: LeonBNJ on Sep 3, 2009 3:33 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Screw Iraq and Afganistan - we need to get out NOW. We are just firing up more hate and encouraging another or even worse attack in the USA than 9/11. We can't financially or politiclly afford it. Obama needs to use real leadership and get us out - ignore the right wing minority that wants us to be there, they just have delusions based on screwed up beliefs of revenge for 9/11 and against Islam. It also is giving in to the oil powers who are seeking to put oil pipelines from Iran to serve China and India.
The Roman Empire collasped in part by their excessive involvement in imperial wars. We are headed in the same direction.
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» Osama, the official boogie man, has been dead since 12/01....
Posted by: CynicI
» I don't know what all the facts are...
Posted by: leafsong1
» I am glad to hear it, it means the truth is slowly emerging from the dark pit of ....
Posted by: CynicI
» Unfortunately, no. I'm not a new convert.
Posted by: leafsong1
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Posted by: and_abottleofrum on Sep 3, 2009 3:46 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama should be ashamed of his position as America's "first black president." He does dishonor to this privilege.
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» RE: It's quite sad Obama turned out to be the first "black" president.....His name
Posted by: Captainmagic
» RE: The sad thing is
Posted by: solrev
» More evidence that you're an extremist right-wing lunatic.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» RE: Tragic.
Posted by: oregoncharles
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Posted by: parrotuya on Sep 3, 2009 3:55 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sending more soldiers and marines will simply give the locals more targets to shoot at and thus, more casualties. Obama should re-consider his position there or face and LBJ-like crisis.
There will be no victory for the US there, ever.
DOWn, baby, DOWn!
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» The futility of fighting a war on terrorism
Posted by: jonodavidson
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Posted by: GatoPreto on Sep 3, 2009 3:56 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Watch it, burn it on CD, and pass it around. This madness has got to end.
http://tinyurl.com/n2du5z
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» The Power of Nightmares Is So Powerful Because It Doesn't Blatantly Say
Posted by: tony_opmoc
» "prophit(0)", you're one Hell of a strange "progressive".
Posted by: GuitarBill
» To be perfectly Honest - I'm Far from Convinced That It Was an Israeli Job...
Posted by: tony_opmoc
» "Dancing Israelis"? BS!
Posted by: GuitarBill
» RE: Actually neither did I in the beginning, but I didn't know at the time....
Posted by: tony_opmoc
» Ok, I will, I am always willing to keep an open mind and change it when it fits.
Posted by: CynicI
» Yeah, in other words you start from a predetermined conclusion and work backward
Posted by: GuitarBill
» BS! You carry water and lie for Al Qaeda on a daily basis.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» GuitarBill - Stop Feeling So Guilty - You Are Trying Much Too Hard...
Posted by: tony_opmoc
» Am I supposed to respond to that stupid ad hominem?
Posted by: GuitarBill
» I Gave Up Latin at The Age of 10 I Could Have Had a Full Blown Classical Education
Posted by: tony_opmoc
» Miriam webster.....
Posted by: CynicI
» RE: Miriam webster.....
Posted by: tony_opmoc
» Oh, how fascinating. I will check out that link... I love good music.
Posted by: CynicI
» The Power of Nightmares was DEBUNKED by Peter Bergen of Nation Magazine
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Another Interesting Interpretation by Guitarbill (Part I)
Posted by: Belisarius6
» Sorry, but you're wrong. "Beware the Holy War" is not the correct article.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Wrong Article? It's the Actual ORIGINAL Article!
Posted by: Belisarius6
» Wrong! I gave you a link to both articles IN FULL.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Partial Reprints and Opinion Pieces Don't Count.
Posted by: Belisarius6
» You're quote mining. Since when is quote mining honest?
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Partial Reprints and Opinion Pieces Don't Count.
Posted by: Belisarius6
» And quote mining the article you cite doesn't count, either.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Partial Reprints and Opinion Pieces Don't Count. (Third Try Lucky)
Posted by: Belisarius6
» And quote mining the article you cite does nothing to support your argument.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Again, quote mining the article doesn't count.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Another Interesting Interpretation by Guitarbill (Part II)
Posted by: Belisarius6
» Only one problem. You cite the wrong Bergen article; thus, it is you who misrepresents Bergen.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» You are misleading the reader, and deliberately misinterpreting Bergen's article.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» And the Nation is funded by who????? Aaah the Puffin Foundation.....
Posted by: CynicI
» RE: And the Nation is funded by who????? Aaah the Puffin Foundation.....
Posted by: EncinoM
» Oh, it's the "evil" Puffin Foundation. (What an idiot) %^)
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Mike Rivero at www.whatreallyhappened.com....
Posted by: zigy
» Better yet, two french reporters from Figaro not only confirmed...
Posted by: CynicI
» RE: Better yet, two french reporters from Figaro not only confirmed...
Posted by: EncinoM
» No problem: Check it out for yourself......
Posted by: CynicI
» RE: No problem: Check it out for yourself......
Posted by: EncinoM
Comments are closed-
Posted by: morgan1 on Sep 3, 2009 4:25 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: What to do?
Posted by: oregoncharles
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Posted by: MyLeftFoot on Sep 3, 2009 5:33 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Viet-ghanistan indeed.
Posted by: jwverez
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Posted by: vkobaya1 on Sep 3, 2009 5:40 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Sorry, that slepp isn't working on us anymore. Disinformation, provocatuering is a tool of the.....
Posted by: CynicI
» RE: Meaningless "Victory"
Posted by: VZEQICVA
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Walks-in-Storms on Sep 3, 2009 5:52 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Election after election since World War II, "change" after change after change, lie after lie after lie, a demonstration of mendacity like being hammered metronymically, the prole U.S. public watches and responds like children enamored of Santa Claus await his arrival.
GOD DAMN - it's like waking to find yourself in an asylum for the insane with no way out.
How the hell can anyone with even the dimmest knowledge of history, how can anyone with even the most tenuous grasp of reality, fail to see what has happened? How can anyone observing the Brobdingnagian growth of the military industrial complex outgoing President Eisenhower warned of fail to realize? How does anyone aware of 752 military basis in 124 countries, of sixty-five plus nuclear submarines, of thirteen of fourteen nuclear aircraft carriers, of fleets of warplanes costing tens of millions, even billions of dollars per copy, and of eight hundred billion dollar a year expenditures on the military fail to realize?
How can anyone watching the relentlessly continual incident of war - war for reasons so infantile as to be utterly ludicrous ("American interests" - WHAT interests?!) - fail to at least suspect the military industrial complex coup d'etat that has occurred?
How can anything sentient fail to recognize that someone higher than the whorehouse on the Potomac is "in power" and control?
Well, someone once said that perception is reality. And "perception" means the media.
Q.E.D.
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» RE: Nothing so amazes me, and nothing demonstrates more clearly . . .
Posted by: Captainmagic
» The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable
Posted by: CRaPWHiSPeReR
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Posted by: Grozny_Guy on Sep 3, 2009 6:07 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: closecrater on Sep 3, 2009 6:14 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Yet Another Gift from the Neocon Scum
Posted by: Captainmagic
» You Actually STILL Believe the Shit You've Been Fed?
Posted by: tony_opmoc
» RE: You Actually STILL Believe the Shit You've Been Fed?
Posted by: closecrater
» Waterboard Silverstein
Posted by: weathered
» Never mind dithered. He's AlterNet's local version of National Socialist lite.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Yes, killed McNeil, made billions on the insurance, buried all the SEC and CIA INVESTIGATIONS ....
Posted by: CynicI
» Question, idiot: Since when does "they" mean "I"?
Posted by: GuitarBill
» RE: BIN LADEN DIED IN 12/01.... wake up and get off it. Everyone in the world....
Posted by: EncinoM
» "I" don't claim anything, the SCIENTIFICALLY PEER REVIEWED EUROPEAN SCIENTISTS CLAIM IT.
Posted by: CynicI
» RE: "I" don't claim anything, the SCIENTIFICALLY PEER REVIEWED EUROPEAN SCIENTISTS CLAIM IT.
Posted by: EncinoM
» That's right, "prophit(0)", when your back's against the wall, change the subject.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Hahahaha, talk about a questionable source...... how funny!
Posted by: CynicI
» Then refute the evidence provided therein, propagandist.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» BIN LADEN HAS BEEN DEAD SINCE 12/01 and he has never admitted....
Posted by: CynicI
» You stupid terrorist apologizing piece of filth.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» I am not.... I do not apologize for Israel's terrorism world wide, in Gaza, or their role in 9-11...
Posted by: CynicI
» Idiot. I never claimed that you apologize for Israel. You're an Al Qaeda apologist.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» GuitarBill: Your Lies are as Bad as Your Invective
Posted by: Belisarius6
» How does that prove Osama bin Laden is still alive?
Posted by: GuitarBill
» How about CNN and the Sunday Tasmanian as a secondary source?
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Lets see! Is Peter Bergen of the nation lying tooo???? well, who is the nation funded by?
Posted by: CynicI
» You're full-of-crap. I gave you four seperate sources of the same information.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» And every single one of them is owned by the same cabal that owns....
Posted by: CynicI
» Ah, so your "evidence" is GUILT BY ASSOCIATION?
Posted by: GuitarBill
» No, its GUILT BY OWNERSHIP AND CONTROL..... hehehe
Posted by: CynicI
» That's right, change the subject. Typical dishonest truther scum.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» "The Power of Nightmares" was debunked by Peter Bergen of Nation Magazine in 2004.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» The Nation is a partisan source
Posted by: leafsong1
» And the conspiranoid propaganda 911 deniers cite is not "a partisan source"?
Posted by: GuitarBill
» There are no reliable sources on the subject, but...
Posted by: leafsong1
» Right! It's the "evil" Puffin Foundation. [What an idiot.] %^)
Posted by: GuitarBill
» OK, so what your saying is Bergen is lying.... figaro doesn't need to lie, but Bergen does... look
Posted by: CynicI
» That's not what I said, illiterate. Can you read, "prophit(0)"?
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Another Interesting Interpretation by Guitarbill (Part I)
Posted by: Belisarius6
» Wrong! Get your facts straight, please.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Wrong! You're deliberately misinterpreting Bergen's article.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Another Interesting Interpretation by Guitarbill (Part II)
Posted by: Belisarius6
» Clearly, it's not me who "misrepresents Bergen", but you.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Partial Reprints and Opinion Pieces Don't Count.
Posted by: Belisarius6
» But you aren't citing the right article. Get it through your thick skull.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Partial Reprints and Opinion Pieces Don't Count. (Third Try Lucky)
Posted by: Belisarius6
» And quote mining the article you cite does nothing to support your argument.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Anyone Who Actually Reads the Full Article Will Know the Truth
Posted by: Belisarius6
» No, all they'll discover is that you quote mined the article.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» You said this, dear Shill............
Posted by: CynicI
» And that's exactly what you are, "prophit(0)".
Posted by: GuitarBill
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mjt on Sep 3, 2009 6:26 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We could have taken out the terrorist training camps and left these poor people to them selves. But no, Bush43 had to prove that he was more capable than anyone else in history. Against all rational advice, Bush43 decided he wanted to be the first successful invader of Afghanistan since the Mongol invasion of 1200.
When will we ever learn to leave other people alone? We don't help them evolve up the societal curve by killing and maiming them. We just drive them further down into poverty, hatred and fundamentalism. We are also doing the same in our own society, just not directly killing and maiming on our own soil.
You can do more to change culture and national behavior in the third world with bluejeans, Ipods, clean well water, medical care and some educational assistance. Ever so much cheaper, more effective. No moral hangover, no collateral damage to our own economy.
But stuck in an ethical and intellectual rut, Bush44 repeats the mistakes of Bush43, and to his everlasting debit, enlarges them.
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» Oh, my Gawd, another one who doesn't have a clue what is going on...
Posted by: CynicI
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ETSpoon on Sep 3, 2009 6:33 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't want to hear or read one word about how terrible the Taliban is because these turbaned punks, many of whom are the sons of our old mujahideen buddies from twenty years ago, stop little Afghan girls from going to school.
And I especially don't what to hear one word of surprise or shock or indignation when our fighting soldiers and Marines march off those airliners and up to the TV cameras and tell the world, they could have finished the "job" (that "job" being to kill as many Afghans as humanly possible) if the politicians and "liberals" hadn't stabbed them in the back!
Believe me, we will hear interviews echoing those sentiments from returning G.I.s and Marines once some one pulls the plug on this thing in Afghanistan. Why? Because this is an All Volunteer Force, the bastard child of anti-Vietnam war activists and Richard Nixon, midwifed by free market Jesus, Milton J. Friedman. Our men and women in uniform are there because they want to be there. never mind if it is because of economic necessity, just don't take my son to be a soldier. Take the neighbor's boy.
Another reason many returning vets will be ungrateful because President Obama or the Congress or whomever pulled their sorry asses out of Afghan quagmire is because they were doing "God's" work killing and/or converting heathen Muslims. Remember this Alternet.org article from April 21, 2007 Birth of the Christian Soldier: How Evangelicals Infiltrated the American Military, by Michael L. Weinstein and David Seay, Thomas Dunne Books? Or how about this news story from Agence France Presse from February 13, 2008 US military accused of harboring fundamentalism. Or This one from Democracy Now! from May of this year: “The Crusade for a Christian Military”: Are US Forces Trying to Convert Afghans to Christianity?
Won't that be just great. A bunch of pissed off ex-Marine, ex-paratrooper snake-handlers and holy rollers ready, willing and able to convert the country to their twisted "Taliban" version of Christianity by force if necessary. Quite frankly, I think I'd rather we funnel off these armed and dangerous Jesus-loving pinheads off to fight and die, especially die, in a pointless war in a foreign land than hand them to jobs in our civilian police departments.
Whatever the out-come in Afghanistan, it will not be pretty. But a percipitious withdrawal, say within 90 days, will have even uglier repercussions domestically.
Please think about it. You have been warned.
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» America is not Israel's Pontius Pilate
Posted by: weathered
» "they want to be there"
Posted by: Gabba_Gabba_Hey
» RE: emember, folks...
Posted by: Captainmagic
» Yeah - send Christians to Afghanistan!
Posted by: Gabba_Gabba_Hey
» Are you talking about THESE taliban marching into Kabul????
Posted by: CynicI
» RE: emember, folks...
Posted by: Crazy H
» You sick, evil pig
Posted by: leafsong1
» **this is me playing the worlds tiniest violin**
Posted by: CRaPWHiSPeReR
Comments are closed-
Posted by: NoPCZone on Sep 3, 2009 6:48 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the execution of such a plan, nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations, and passionate attachments for others, should be excluded; and that, in place of them, just and amicable feelings towards all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges towards another a habitual hatred or a habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable, when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur. Hence, frequent collisions, obstinate, envenomed, and bloody contests. The nation, prompted by ill-will and resentment, sometimes impels to war the government, contrary to the best calculations of policy...The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of nations, has been the victim.
So likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions; by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill-will, and a disposition to retaliate, in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld. And it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation), facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country, without odium, sometimes even with popularity; gilding, with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good, the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.
As avenues to foreign influence in innumerable ways, such attachments are particularly alarming to the truly enlightened and independent patriot. How many opportunities do they afford to tamper with domestic factions, to practice the arts of seduction, to mislead public opinion, to influence or awe the public councils...
Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy to be useful must be impartial; else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people, to surrender their interests.
The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible...
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» Free US from Israel
Posted by: weathered
» That is an excellent point... we are beginning to look like Israel...
Posted by: CynicI
Comments are closed-
Posted by: dipconsult on Sep 3, 2009 6:49 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Probably the invasion of Afghanistan was politically inevitable given that it was used as a platform for Al Qaeda not only for managing 9/11 but for the preceding terrorists acts.
But it was high risk and the invasion was only successful because it used warlords for success and so the occupation and resultant Afghan government were beholden to them. And Aghanistan's history showed it to be even more opposed to occupation than most countries.
So Bush had only say three years to use his then immense worldwide support to get the funding and international expertise to make a real difference in rebuilding Afghanistan after the Soviet war and the civil wars(s) which followed - not to speak of the devastation caused by thew Taliban.
But against all common sense and the dire warnings of we Cassandras - some very highly placed (like Senators Bird and Kennedy and Brent Scowcroft and our British Robin Cook) - Bush/Blair wrecked then then good chances for a crash programme in Afghanistan by invading Iraq which then had for years the top priority for troops, expertise, and funding. Perhaps worse - wide international support for Bush from virtually every significant nation (including China and Russia and at least tacit support from Muslim countries).
Anti-Americanism soared worldwide - even in the UK. And Afghanistan remained on hold with no takers - not even Nato members - to share the financial and military burden.
By the time Obama came to power Afghanistan was all but lost. He inherited two "Vietnams" - in Iraq and Afghanistan. The problem is to leave both countries with the least possible damage to US and Western interests, and indeed to the interests of all countries opposed to international terrorism .
OK - that's the diagnosis. What's to be done? First there has to be a holding operation - no doubt involving temporary increased troop levels. Second there must be far less "collateral damage" - Vietnam was lost more by |"collateral damage" than any other facto - the writer was there twice during the war and found the entire population was anti-American from the President to the girl in the rice field.
Third - Bush's confrontation must be followed by a chastened US seeking international cooperation - not for fighting but for bringing about real change: a) in government, no matter who is proclaimed winner of flawed elections, b)in mounting wherever possible real effective reconstruction that will be felt by every Afghan who benefits. This would be a big incentive to others to want to better heir conditions - what does the Taliban offer? c) the mere re-asssembly of the support Bush had in the beginning in 2001 would go a long way to change the entire situation. Russia and China - and Iran - for example do not want the Taliban back giving a base to Al Qaeda.
Think cooperation as the only means left to try to get America out of this "Vietnam" that Bush made. Think - what would you do if you were Obama? Just pack up and go? Think through the consequences.
But for any success in getting international cooperation, Obama will have to show he really is moving America back to international cooperation and away from confrontation. And that means for starters making a real move to resolve the Israel Palestine running sore by standing up to Israel's hard line government in favour of America's and the world's real interests. Right now that means stopping settlement spread. It is still Palestine that is the recruiting serjeant for Al Qaeda and Muslim extremism.
Maybe it is too late now after Bush.
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» Is this serious????
Posted by: CynicI
Comments are closed-
Posted by: dipconsult on Sep 3, 2009 6:51 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Probably the invasion of Afghanistan was politically inevitable given that it was used as a platform for Al Qaeda not only for managing 9/11 but for the preceding terrorists acts.
But it was high risk and the invasion was only successful because it used warlords for success and so the occupation and resultant Afghan government were beholden to them. And Aghanistan's history showed it to be even more opposed to occupation than most countries.
So Bush had only say three years to use his then immense worldwide support to get the funding and international expertise to make a real difference in rebuilding Afghanistan after the Soviet war and the civil wars(s) which followed - not to speak of the devastation caused by thew Taliban.
But against all common sense and the dire warnings of we Cassandras - some very highly placed (like Senators Bird and Kennedy and Brent Scowcroft and our British Robin Cook) - Bush/Blair wrecked then then good chances for a crash programme in Afghanistan by invading Iraq which then had for years the top priority for troops, expertise, and funding. Perhaps worse - wide international support for Bush from virtually every significant nation (including China and Russia and at least tacit support from Muslim countries).
Anti-Americanism soared worldwide - even in the UK. And Afghanistan remained on hold with no takers - not even Nato members - to share the financial and military burden.
By the time Obama came to power Afghanistan was all but lost. He inherited two "Vietnams" - in Iraq and Afghanistan. The problem is to leave both countries with the least possible damage to US and Western interests, and indeed to the interests of all countries opposed to international terrorism .
OK - that's the diagnosis. What's to be done? First there has to be a holding operation - no doubt involving temporary increased troop levels. Second there must be far less "collateral damage" - Vietnam was lost more by |"collateral damage" than any other facto - the writer was there twice during the war and found the entire population was anti-American from the President to the girl in the rice field.
Third - Bush's confrontation must be followed by a chastened US seeking international cooperation - not for fighting but for bringing about real change: a) in government, no matter who is proclaimed winner of flawed elections, b)in mounting wherever possible real effective reconstruction that will be felt by every Afghan who benefits. This would be a big incentive to others to want to better heir conditions - what does the Taliban offer? c) the mere re-asssembly of the support Bush had in the beginning in 2001 would go a long way to change the entire situation. Russia and China - and Iran - for example do not want the Taliban back giving a base to Al Qaeda.
Think cooperation as the only means left to try to get America out of this "Vietnam" that Bush made. Think - what would you do if you were Obama? Just pack up and go? Think through the consequences.
But for any success in getting international cooperation, Obama will have to show he really is moving America back to international cooperation and away from confrontation. And that means for starters making a real move to resolve the Israel Palestine running sore by standing up to Israel's hard line government in favour of America's and the world's real interests. Right now that means stopping settlement spread. It is still Palestine that is the recruiting serjeant for Al Qaeda and Muslim extremism.
Maybe it is too late now after Bush.
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» I don't buy it
Posted by: james108
» Good job, no "great job", James.
Posted by: CynicI
» The idea that THE Superpower needs to occupy one of the weakest...
Posted by: leafsong1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: xi_people on Sep 3, 2009 7:18 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Did you know that another "largest embassy in the world" is being planned for Pakistan? Does this sound like "change you can believe in"?
Remember all those rumors about Bush/Cheney refusing to leave office? It turns out that the "democratic" process was allowed to go forward because the PTB already had their next puppet lined up; someone who would fool the people into thinking that some kind of change was occurring, while the same policies would continue uninterrupted.
If Obama thinks that people will continue to be dazzled by his smile, he has a big awakening coming. It is now very clear what he is, and that masses of supporters were handily duped.
To those who scoffed when they were warned that Obama had the potential to be worse than Bush, you were warned.
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» I can fully support what you are saying about Pakistan with links if you need them.
Posted by: CynicI
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Posted by: jwverez on Sep 3, 2009 7:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: SteveA on Sep 3, 2009 7:32 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: George Will may make a difference - yes he will
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: George Will may make a difference - yes he will (NO, He Won't.)
Posted by: Jayzer
» I agree with everything you said, except the war on terror.
Posted by: CynicI
» Unfortunately, this agenda is bigger than any one person.
Posted by: CynicI
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Posted by: troubleinmind254 on Sep 3, 2009 7:56 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: austex_chris on Sep 3, 2009 8:01 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have a degree in Middle Eastern Studies, so I know a thing or two about the situation. Afghanistan is not a winnable war, period. There is nothing to win. It has been a lawless, wild area for as long as anyone can remember, heck Alexander's army generals could have told you not to get bogged down there.
I was one of the few people who opposed the invasion of Afghanistan in the first place, there was way too much public support for the invasion in the wake of 9/11. Any one who knew anything about the region would have known that it was a bad idea. But Bush put us in the worst position, because now there are only two options:
1) Add more troops to Afghanistan and fight off the Taliban as best you can, knowing that the terrain and culture will make it near impossible to ever win, but at least you can prevent the Taliban from taking over at the cost of war casualties.
2) Pull out and let the Taliban eventually take over again (and they will) and just ignore the carnage that ensues as a result of the withdrawal. There will be retribution for anyone who is thought to be someone who worked with the Americans and they will take their culture back to the violent and misogynist way it was before the invasion.
There are no other political options. There will never be a western style democracy there, it just does not fit into the culture. War there only creates more resentment and terrorists. The more civilian casualties there are, the more potential recruits there are for extremists.
So sure, we can be mad about more casualties in the US military. But the alternative of letting Afghanistan fall is just as bad, if not worse. So the question is, how much can we blame Obama? He is not Superman, he can't solve this problem. He is screwed either way.
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» As long as Emanuel/Likud infects
Posted by: weathered
» RE: Is it Obama's fault?
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» While what you wrote is true, it doesn't matter. Its the agenda....
Posted by: CynicI
» RE: While what you wrote is true, it doesn't matter. Its the agenda....
Posted by: austex_chris
» Its not our place to tell others how to run their country.
Posted by: CynicI
» RE: Its not our place to tell others how to run their country.
Posted by: austex_chris
» I say, no more war. Its wrong on so many levels.....
Posted by: CynicI
» RE: I say, no more war. Its wrong on so many levels.....
Posted by: austex_chris
» Well, there are many options, but why leave the North Alliance?
Posted by: CynicI
» RE: Well, there are many options, but why leave the North Alliance?
Posted by: austex_chris
» You seem to be unable to comprehend or empathize or understand....
Posted by: CynicI
» RE: You seem to be unable to comprehend or empathize or understand....
Posted by: austex_chris
» One option
Posted by: james108
» well, stirred up and empowered anyway
Posted by: james108
» Who governs Afghanistan is not now, nor has it ever been, any of our business.
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Who governs Afghanistan is not now, nor has it ever been, any of our business.
Posted by: austex_chris
Comments are closed-
Posted by: symcokid on Sep 3, 2009 8:11 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Irony Alert, Folks
Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: Irony Alert, Folks --- Absolutely correct, that is why -----
Posted by: symcokid
» RE: We can win this Afghanistan war and -----
Posted by: VZEQICVA
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Col. Jackleg on Sep 3, 2009 8:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: mike1997 on Sep 3, 2009 8:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We have a perfectly good, unambiguous term for such people; the term is mercenary. Use it.
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» RE: misleading term
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: misleading term - It sure is
Posted by: VZEQICVA
Comments are closed-
Posted by: bh on Sep 3, 2009 8:55 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Southern Gal on Sep 3, 2009 9:08 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Why?
Posted by: austex_chris
» You ask "Why?" Because that is the global plan for dominating Eurasia according to Zbig....
Posted by: CynicI
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Posted by: JohnTruth2001 on Sep 3, 2009 9:14 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wake-up, sheeple!!!
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» the golden triangle wars continued
Posted by: tazdelaney
Comments are closed-
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Sep 3, 2009 9:51 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The much acclaimed General McChrystal feels we need a new starategy. I assume that's because the old one isn't working. It seems that 27,000 troops will be needed. McChrystal is a hard core warrior, I am not. Every American who comes home in a box is a victim of his failed strategy. I doubt that he sees it that way. Not his job. Because most of our elected officials have no military background, war is easy to sell. Bush and Cheney bought into the idea. It is an accepted military strategy to know when it becomes the responsibilty of the Generals to stop feeding our soldiers to their ego driven strategies. Realizing that it's time to quit is not cowardly. To continue doing what clearly does not work when it is costing lives, is treasonous. Every Afgan civilian who dies is an immoral act. McChrystal has to know that this is not the way to find the terrorists. It's a way to expand the war to include most of the Middle East. I like President Obama and believe him to be extremely bright. But intelligence is never across the board. The very smartest people have gaps and void in their vast amounts of knowledge. I think it's time for Obama to see that possibility in himself. Is he being sold a bill of goods by the people who make the goods? Maybe. Afte the Health Insurance debacle is won and he will win it I would like a detailed reason for Afganistan. No 'good war' Bull---t. He cannot use the word 'success'. I honestly don't believe he can justify not bringing everyone home. There's no speech good enough.
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» Your whole thesis falls apart with this piece of information you may not have had....
Posted by: CynicI
» RE: Your whole thesis falls apart with this piece of information you may not have had....
Posted by: VZEQICVA
Comments are closed-
Posted by: BlueBerry PickN on Sep 3, 2009 9:58 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
when CANADIANS were STUCK HOLDING DOWN HELMAND PROVINCE
while Americans threw us to the wolves. Your own Pentagon was astonished by Canada's work in Helmand. The EU was stunned by Canada's dedicated & less violent work there.
amazing.
but the American Public? couldn't give a damn if it didn't involve screaming "We're NUMBER ONE!, tickertape parades & the Stars N'Stripes...
Then Americans show up to carry their share & ACT LIKE FREAKY TRIGGER-HAPPY CHRISTIAN CRUSADERS... & roll out the Predator Drones...
& you're suddenly worried about AMERICANS?
...not the Afghans
...not the Pakistani
...not the OTHER NATO MEMBERS YOU ABANDONED...
nah... but when you're in debt up to your eyeballs & throwing YOUR LAST REMAINING ASSET into the warzone to hold off your creditors chasing down your other DEBT COLLATERAL
suddenly, Americans are demanding NATO CARRY YOUR WATER for you again
& you can't stop whinging about how horrible Afghanistan was.
THANKS FOR LISTENING TO US FOR THE LAST FEW YEARS!
& thanks is probably on its way from all the US troops WHO TOLD YOU AFGHANISTAN MADE IRAQ LOOK LIKE A TEAPARTY.
congratulations.
American arrogance reigns again: but you'd never know it, because you didn't listen to anybody but yourselves to get what you wanted.
Now you've got Obama & his Afghan mission: ENJOY!!
I hope NATO pulls out & leaves you there to enjoy what you started when you wouldn't TAKE OBL WHEN HE WAS OFFERED.
Hell, OBL is probably long gone & living on a remote beach island in Indonesia by now...
wow, Americans are self-centred.
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» bin laden lived at the crawford ranch?
Posted by: tazdelaney
» Yes, "we" are "dumbed down". I agree, "prophit(0)".
Posted by: GuitarBill
» RE: Personal Vendettas are Unbecoming and Off-topic.
Posted by: oregoncharles
» Whatever Charley. I find "prophit(0)'s" lies and propaganda "Unbecoming and Off-topic."
Posted by: GuitarBill
Comments are closed-
Posted by: MeyravLevine on Sep 3, 2009 10:18 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Clinton hoped backing Taliban would allow control of the region and create a threat to Iran; not to mention UNICOL would have access to oil & gas resources.
And now? Nothing has changed. The US geo-political goal to maintain primary power requires it to setup bases in Afghanistan where it can launch military strikes against Iran, develop in-roads into the oil & gas resources in Central Asian countries and check Russian influence.
Unfortunately, Afghans don't want to cooperate with our strategic goals.
Is Obama going to pull us out of Afghan - actually AF-PAK?
We are in a lose-lose sitaution. Bush's fucked up decission to go to war has destabilized the entire region. The only solution is to sit-down and have good-faith negotiations with all parties involved.
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» RE: I agree on Iraq; I disagree on our ability to bring about a change
Posted by: MeyravLevine
» Boy, do I ever agree with you on that.... and I agree change will not happen....
Posted by: CynicI
Comments are closed-
Posted by: tazdelaney on Sep 3, 2009 10:29 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
should be noted that 'liberal' woodrow wilson dragged the US into WWI to help fight 'the last of the king's wars' under the phrases 'the war to end all wars' and 'the war to make the world safe for democracy.' then 'liberal' FDR watches while senator prescott BUSH routes billions in money and technology from such as rockefeller/ford/GM/chrysler/dupont/kennedy to the nazis. Speer wrote in his journal that if not for america giving germany tank and tread tech, they never could've invaded anywhere... senator BUSH was convicted of 'trading with the enemy' in 1942, yet never did a day in prison as he was rich and strings to pull...
'liberal' truman nukes japan to show the soviets our new toy, then grants thousands of nazis immunity so as to import them into CIA/science/policing. truman creates the national security state, which can just be shortened to 'natse' as we now see. gives us the korean war. backs such thugs as batista and somoza, too.
then 'liberal' JFK sets up what senator frank church later called 'the golden triangle war' in vietnam (cambodia, laos, too.) 'liberal' LBJ kills a million vietnamese after the faked photos of the 'gulf of tonkin' incident fools all but two members of the entire congress (democrat morse of oregon, republican grunig of alaska voted against as they weren't just going baaaaa like the rest of the sheep.)
'liberal' carter says no more arms to the shah of iran, gets off of air force one and immediately gives the shah the most arms ever. 'liberal' clinton backs the genocidal embargo that killed at least 800,000 iraqis, over half a million children by US admission; he continued to back the guatemalan junta's genocide of mayan natives as their lands were sought by oil and resorts firms. clinton continued to back peru's vicious fujimori, also a killer of native peoples and others, who now is imprisoned in peru. clinton had his own war crimes in the balkan conflict and albania.
now obama turns coat on every campaign promise and gives us the expanded iraq-afpak wars complete with bush-cheney CIA rendition program of outsourced torture and protection of war criminals to the hilt. after all, he will soon be facing such charges himself as his body bag count rises.
not to say that the dems are worse than the GOP when it comes to slaughter... republicans are fascists outright. democrats are fascists in sheep's clothing. it is all government by garbage, bribed from the get-go by the military-industrial complex Ike warned us about, (that none since has heeded.)
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» Liar.... Eisenhower set up Viet Nam, while Kennedy had begun pulling the advisors out....
Posted by: CynicI
Comments are closed-
Posted by: gunboat diplomat on Sep 3, 2009 10:40 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Iraq Violence Threatens Oil Deals
BAGHDAD, Aug. 27 (UPI) -- Recent events in Iraq have cast a pall over the government's plans to have a November auction for potentially lucrative oil contracts that are vital for the country's reconstruction.
Or because of this?
U.S. Death Toll at Record Low in Iraq, at Record High in Afghanistan, Sep 2, 2009
"There are currently 130,000 U.S. combat troops in Iraq, and Defense Secretary Robert Gates said at the end of July that if violence levels continue to stay low one of 14 combat units – about 5,000 personnel – may leave early, by the end of the year."
Troop levels in Afghanistan are only at 50,000 currently, up from 30,000 last year. By comparison, this means that we are still putting three times as much effort into Iraq than Afghanistan.
Not that you'd guess it from reading the U.S. press - but the deal appears to still be the same as it was under the Bush regime, going right back to Cheney's Energy Task Force Meetings in Feb 2001, featuring maps of Iraqi oilfields and lists of bidders - and guess who wasn't on that list?
Here's a blurb from the most recent round of Iraqi oil bids, UPI:
"All the other majors -- Exxon Mobil, Royal Dutch Shell and Chevron Corp. among them -- refused to lower their demands.
That's probably why no one is talking about Iraq - under Obama, Operation Iraqi Oil is proceeding just as it did under Bush.
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/53390
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» The troops in Iraq are being redirected to Af/Pak even as we speak and
Posted by: maxpayne
» and some believe that Obama is not warlike enough
Posted by: stellabloo
» RE: There are three times as many US troops in Iraq as in Afghanistan -
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» True, they don't know who is a contract killer, formerly known as ....
Posted by: CynicI
Comments are closed-
Posted by: badkitty on Sep 3, 2009 10:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Common sense and just general knowledge tell us that Barack Obama has been president for less than nine months. He inherited these wars started by people who although they didn't serve in Vietnam, wanted to fight it over again. I'm hoping that in these eight months, he has given the military enough rope to hang itself. Now that McChrystal has come back and said he needs more troops, it's time to say, "gee, I'm sorry, I think we'll leave instead". Obama is, by no stretch of the imagination, George W. Bush or Ronald Reagan. He was handed a very bad situation in every respect, economy, war, deficits, and worst of all, climate change. He's doing the best he can, and I hope he's learned that bipartisanship is a no go. He needs to end this war now, troops out by Christmas, and just ignore the weeping and wailing of the Republicans and their supporters. Next year he can really cut the defense budget, or get rid of it altogether.
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» And if you think things are bad right now ...
Posted by: stellabloo
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Posted by: tazdelaney on Sep 3, 2009 10:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Garvagh on Sep 3, 2009 11:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: spanky on Sep 3, 2009 11:24 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And the people, satiated and exhausted by the orgy of the campaign, have returned to their lives, leaving the elites to their own devices for another 4 years, as always.
I forgot who said this, but the fact that he was *allowed* to be elected president tells you everything you need to know about the extent to which he will be *allowed* to change things.
ps: I voted for Obama
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» RE: why is any of this surprising?
Posted by: maxpayne
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Posted by: zigy on Sep 3, 2009 11:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Americans say they want out, but their lifestyle belies their words.
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» If the public understood, they would make the necessary sacrifices...
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: If the public understood, If they knew!.
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» I concede your point leafsong1, partialy.
Posted by: zigy
» Once again, the genius of insight rears its glorious head....
Posted by: CynicI
» Zbig sold America out
Posted by: pomes
» That is because he is an Internationalist with his fellow bankers....
Posted by: CynicI
» I always obtain...
Posted by: zigy
» Thanks, Zigy, for those kind words, but I have a present for you....
Posted by: CynicI
» Thanks, CynicI...
Posted by: zigy
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Posted by: tony_opmoc on Sep 3, 2009 12:01 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They think we are making it up...
And we say - well this coming weekend - we are going to burn the Straw Jack...
They say - you mean Jack Straw - isn't he one of your War Criminals?
I say - Straw Jack
They say Jack Straw...
No Straw Jack
Check out The Original Version of the Wicker Man - rather than The Scottish remake - or even more dire - the American remake...
And you may get the idea...
I was going to post this on a Right Wing American Republican Website Populated by the KKK - but didn't have the balls.
They are Fucking Mad
Tony
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Posted by: tony_opmoc on Sep 3, 2009 1:38 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But judging from the diversity of colours and supposed races and supposed religions...
Neither of our kids are in the slightest bit racially or religiously prejudiced whatsoever...
They both also are really Charitable human beings in the most fundamental understanding of that word...
They actually go out and help people - sometimes people they have never met in their life
We are so proud of them...
And when the latest Israeli attack happenned on the Palestinians - it wasn't my lad - who cut the plug on them and denied them any further access to the UK Backbone
It wasn't him that told them to
FUCK OFF
And despite them placing a massive new big order with him - for which he bought absolutely loads of new hardware - out of his money - for which he never received any payment - he was doing it on the basis of trust...
Like the UK authorities had never denied any of the Israelis physical access...
Now the Game Had Changed
You Cannot Do That
And So My Lad was suddenly a bit skint...
Cos he'd bought all this new hardware - which wasn't going to get paid for - and also a significant percentage of his current business
Had been banned access
You see - We do Have Som Principles in London
We did the same thing to the Apartheid in South Africa
We Ain't Fucking Having It
Tony
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Posted by: tony_opmoc on Sep 3, 2009 2:14 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I Had Told Her Of All The Dangers of Protests in London and How They Could Turn Out....
Her Brother had arranged an Interview For Her The Same Day - So That She Could Earn Some Money Before She Starts University...(A Brotherley Diversion)
But She Knew She Had To Do It....
Because when She Was 15 - She Was Arrested By The Police For Doing Absolutely Nothing Wrong...
And Had Her DNA Extracted - And The Police Threw Her To The Ground - and Handcuffed Her...
All Her Friends had run away
But She had done nothing wrong - so didn't run
So She had been through all the trauma of being arrested and thrown into jail at the age of 15
So she thought
I am going to get my own back
I am going into London and take the Photographs For My "A" Level Project in Photography and Art..
And Did
And Has Got a Brilliant Place at University as a Result...
And she is arranging the part time jobs to help pay for her degree - and has already been invited on a trip with her new mates to go to Amsterdam in November
And is Really Looking Forward To It...
She is now trying to pay for her accommodation with her Grant and Student Loan which has not arrived yet...If she pays it all before she starts she is given a free coupon worth £500 which is divided and allocated in equal parts every month so that she can eat if she doesn't get a job.
And Her Mum said - You Know when I was doing the Childminding - as you were growing up...
Well each week when I got paid I put a bit of money into an account for you - and over the years - it accumulated quite a bit of interest..
And I said - something much the same...
So last night we dug out all the accounts that had been in her name since she was born...
And said - you need to transfer this into your account now...
Her Mum had saved about £2,000 for her
..Now you might think that is not much...
But its better than nowt
Tony
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Posted by: maxsmart on Sep 3, 2009 3:46 PM
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Posted by: Jill 2 on Sep 3, 2009 4:04 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
–Perhaps it is not Obama running the show at all.
Articles such as this one seem to assemble an aggressive counterpoint of increasingly justifiable doubt as to who is really in command of the depraved and murderous American Afghan nightmare.
Recently in San Francisco the journalist and author John Pilger said that the distinguished American, Daniel Ellsberg (he of Pentagon Papers fame) believed that under Bush, some kind of a de facto a military coup took place in America. Craven idiots– their hands awash in blood– and assorted apologists, otherwise known as moderates and 'voices of reason,' will of course label Ellsberg as "shrill" and an 'off the wall' delusional 'dead ender.' Not surprisingly, these sycophants are hardly all Republicans or conservatives–but most dangerously– self proclaimed Progressives.
Now that this condescending epithet–so often used unfailingly in the so called 'progressive' blogosphere to disparage and mock more radical views – is losing its shopworn luster, one wonders what adjective will replace it when Daniel Ellsberg's musings turn out one day to be true? Indeed, what is emerging is a sense that the defeat of fascism in America, is in fact congruent with the American military defeat in Afghanistan and Iraq. Perhaps that must unflinchingly become the programmatic nexus of any truly progressive political stratagem of liberation. You can't have one without the other.– (Jill Bains)
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» RE: Let's call all Obama's critics shrill, radical left, hysterics!
Posted by: badkitty
» RE: Let's call all Obama's critics shrill, radical left, hysterics!
Posted by: Jill 2
» Remember the Iran Contra affair
Posted by: jonodavidson
» RE: Remember the Iran Contra affair
Posted by: Jill 2
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Posted by: pomes on Sep 3, 2009 4:16 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe then he wouldn't have caught America into the same trap. Then again, maybe he would've. Zbig was one of the first advisors on the Obama campaign, and I'm sure still has his ear now.
Funny, fishy times.
Zbigniew Brzezinski:
How Jimmy Carter and I Started the Mujahideen
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» Zbig's Chess Game has Been Analysed By The Best in The USA, Russia, UK and China
Posted by: tony_opmoc
» true, but...
Posted by: james108
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Posted by: tony_opmoc on Sep 3, 2009 6:10 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I Say - Well Isn't It Completely Obvious???
It is Not You Stupid Cunts With Your Student Loans and Cushy Daddy Supported Lifestyles Where You Just Have Fun - Waiting For The Call To Be in Power...
Nah - You Have Got It Wrong....
It's All The Kids Who Started Their Own Businesses at The Age of 13....
They will be Employing The Best of You - when you leave University...
The rest of you will be lucky to get a job in McDonalds...
You don't honestly think you can crawl up Cameron's Arse Do You?
That Slimeball won't last 5 minutes
He's just a Tony Blair Clone Airhead - He hasn't got a Clue from his elbow to his arse to his windmill
Get yourself a job doing something you really love and earn some money providing something useful to other people
Tony
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Posted by: tony_opmoc on Sep 3, 2009 6:55 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: tony_opmoc on Sep 3, 2009 7:28 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And Your US Dollar
How Do You Know We Have Any Respect For You Whatsover?
Do You Think We Care About Your US Dollar?
When You Are Threatening Us With Your Bombs and Your Guns and Your Nuclear Missiles...
Don't You Realise
THAT IS THE CORE REASON - Why We Don't Like You
You Really Need To Arrest All Your War Criminals and Put Them On Trial...
And Convert All Your Destructive Energy In Your Useless Nuclear Bombs Into Safe Clean Electricity For Peaceful Purposes Using Thorium Nuclear Reactors Currently Going Into Production in India..
If you continue to behave like spoilt brats - then Over 90% of you will live in Poverty - and You Will Fight Each Other
And We Will Watch on High Definition TV...
Whereas If You Give Up All Your Weapons of Mass Destruction - You May Well Eventually Be Re-Admitted To The World Community...
But You Need a New Government
We Don't Get on With NAZI FASCIST ARSEHOLES - in fact we went to war with them in 1939.
Tony
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» RE: Have Americans Actually Travelled To Africa and India and Russia and Europe and China
Posted by: Captainmagic
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Posted by: tony_opmoc on Sep 3, 2009 7:54 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: wormfarmer on Sep 3, 2009 8:18 PM
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Posted by: tony_opmoc on Sep 3, 2009 8:48 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And I say - we Confiscate all your Weapons of Mass Destruction without You Noticing and We Disarm Them - and Extract All Their Energy and Convert It Into Electricity for Peaceful Puposes...
Meanwhile You think you still have them...
And We Really Annoy You - and Go
Na na Na na Na na Na...
Your Weapons Don't Work Any More
Tony
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Posted by: Lemuel G. on Sep 3, 2009 10:48 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
British, Australian, and New Zealand armed-forces have taken a number of casualties in this, your, war (and probably more nations that I don't know about 'cause I can't be bothered researching). These nations' (your friends, yes?) armed-forces are considered among the most professional and effective in the world, and fight bravely - usually for no better reason other than that it is their job and they don't want to let down their buddies.
New Zealand is sending back it's SAS after diplomatic pressure from the US, and you can bet they're (you-fucking-know-who) turning the screws on the rest of their friends as we type (meaning that your political and military leadership don't think we all suck so fuckin' badly).
And don't start with the Germans... did it occur to you that the Germans, as a people, have a vivid and terrible collective-memory of occupying foreign nations and trying to pacify unruly populations? Popular-opinion there (Germany)would not tolerate a combat-role for their troops.
For fuck's sake... do some research, this was fucking weak - and insulting; when you next moan of American ignorance - just remember that you are guilty of it's propagation.
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Posted by: axisofoil on Sep 3, 2009 10:52 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: jonodavidson on Sep 4, 2009 2:09 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No one so bold as Bin Laden masterminded, organized, planned and funded the attacks on 9/11. There were no well laid plans discovered in an easily located apartment to be discovered after the fact. The terrorists who carried out the plan were competent enough to highjack all four planes before the first plane struck. They were technically and tactically proficient enough to fly the planes to their intended targets at a low altitude using terrain features to navigate. These guys prepared for this attack meticulously, and Al Queda has not demonstrated the ability to recruit and train terrorists as competent in any previous or subsequent attack. I do not think the terrorists from Bin Laden's Al Queda, who could not even park a truck bomb in the precise location, are capable of performing the well orchestrated attack that occurred on 9/11. If our government was worthy to be trusted, they would demonstrate their integrity by providing the public with the evidence they have to prove the accusations against Bin Laden are true. The evidence from Bin Laden's attack on the world trade center was provided to the public leaving no doubt that he masterminded that attack.
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Posted by: Gyre on Sep 4, 2009 4:52 AM
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Posted by: peridot on Sep 3, 2009 2:46 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: CynicI on Sep 3, 2009 8:05 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why? Have I really hit the nail on the head?
If you don't see anymore of my comments, you know they have succeeded cause I care about this very issue so I have no intentions of stopping posting.
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» RE: Looks like alternet is trying to block my continuing commenting...
Posted by: tony_opmoc
» Your probably right, but for some reason when I post a post like that, it all stops...
Posted by: CynicI
» They've always had a problem with posting links for years.
Posted by: maxpayne
» Its early yet, notice they come a bit later when most of the posting is done....
Posted by: CynicI
» RE: Its early yet, notice they come a bit later when most of the posting is done....
Posted by: tony_opmoc
» Yes, the brits are so polite and civil. I was married to a brit for a long time...
Posted by: CynicI
» Keep up the good work, CynicI
Posted by: MaxBridges
» Well, if it isn't Max, the "no planer" nut. So how's insanity treating you, Max?
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Still standing TALL AND STRONG just like the vigilante in the game sir !
Posted by: maxpayne
» Still working on that reading comprehension thing, MP?
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Couldn't tell by the way you'd generally post. My apologies.
Posted by: maxpayne
» Next time, look at how the posts line up. That's your clue.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Proof of the disinformation warrior's performance objectives...
Posted by: MaxBridges
» Correction: Proof of the disinformation warrior's performance objectives...
Posted by: MaxBridges
» Lying again, Max? You're the one who admits you're a "no planer".
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Spinning, twisting, and Lying again, GuitarBill
Posted by: MaxBridges
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mmckinl on Sep 3, 2009 1:22 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
David Swanson
September 02, 2009 "TomDispatch"
"If Bush were in his third term, we would already have seen him propose, yet again, the largest military budget in the history of the world. We might well have seen him pretend he was including war funding in the standard budget, and then claim that one final supplemental war budget was still needed, immediately after which he would surely announce that yet another war supplemental bill would be needed down the road. And of course, he would have held onto his Secretary of Defense from his second term, Robert Gates, to run the Pentagon, keep our ongoing wars rolling along, and oversee the better part of our public budget.
Bush would undoubtedly be following through on the agreement he signed with Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki for all U.S. troops to leave Iraq by the end of 2011 (except where he chose not to follow through). His generals would, in the meantime, be leaking word that the United States never intended to actually leave. He'd surely be maintaining current levels of troops in Iraq, while sending thousands more troops to Afghanistan and talking about a new "surge" there. He'd probably also be escalating the campaign he launched late in his second term to use drone aircraft to illegally and repeatedly strike into Pakistan's tribal borderlands with Afghanistan."
~~~~
Read the whole article ... should you want the truth ...
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» RE: Thanks for Posting That.
Posted by: oregoncharles
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Posted by: and_abottleofrum on Sep 3, 2009 1:37 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama, to put it bluntly, is an oreo cookie. He's not authentic in any way that he's presented himself. He is just a great presentation, a talented actor, using his skills to dupe the gullible. He got my hopes up during the election and I've been kicking myself for this since about March, when it was clear he is a triangulator estranged from the meaning of true change.
His radical pastor would have been a far better choice for President than phony Obama.
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» Go (if you would) to youtube and watch the Obama Deception...
Posted by: zigy
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Posted by: Carts on Sep 3, 2009 2:01 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The folly of war,
America will fall,
As Empires before.
(May it happen soon)
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» Be careful, the whole plan is for America to be destroyed...
Posted by: CynicI
» Oh yes, "prophit(0)" knows the plan. In fact, "prophit(0)" knows EVERYTHING
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Israel takes a piss in your living room
Posted by: weathered
» Never mind dithered. He's AlterNet's local version of National Socialist lite.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Tell us which evidence you want??? Organ harvesting??? Sex slave trade? Political control???
Posted by: CynicI
» Let's see your alleged "evidence"--you anti-American, terrorist apologizing piece of filth.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» An Explanation of the Truthiness movement and Prophit(o)
Posted by: EncinoM
» She's sick--mentally ill.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Oh, so any source overseas that I give you will not be suitable, is that what your saying?
Posted by: CynicI
» No source you give is suitable, because you're a liar and a propagandist.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Ok, so much and so little time.... where oh where do I begin.....
Posted by: CynicI
» How does that pile of horse-**** prove that Israel is behind 911?
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Read my question above. I asked you which you wanted and you wouldn't give me an answer.....
Posted by: CynicI
» I told you what I want.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Here is something I am sure you don't want, but its going to blow your socks off.
Posted by: CynicI
» More quote mining, "prophit(0)"?
Posted by: GuitarBill
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Perry Logan on Sep 3, 2009 2:48 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Proud Cynthia McKinney voter here. :)
Here's proof that I'm Nostradamus--a video I did some eleven months ago, called The Democrats' Answer to George W. Bush.
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Posted by: tony_opmoc on Sep 3, 2009 3:04 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I know it seems a nutty conspiracy theory - but just look what the USA has done since 9/11?
Surely you didn't bring all this on yourselves - you ain't that daft.
Who's Dick Cheney really working for?
Tony
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» RE: Most Americans still think Obama Sin Laden Did 9/11 and He's Hiding out in Iraq Somewhere...
Posted by: weathered
» I Wrote The Following on September 11th 2001...
Posted by: tony_opmoc
» Osama is on the back 9
Posted by: weathered
» RE: We aren't?
Posted by: oregoncharles
Comments are closed-
Posted by: LeonBNJ on Sep 3, 2009 3:33 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Screw Iraq and Afganistan - we need to get out NOW. We are just firing up more hate and encouraging another or even worse attack in the USA than 9/11. We can't financially or politiclly afford it. Obama needs to use real leadership and get us out - ignore the right wing minority that wants us to be there, they just have delusions based on screwed up beliefs of revenge for 9/11 and against Islam. It also is giving in to the oil powers who are seeking to put oil pipelines from Iran to serve China and India.
The Roman Empire collasped in part by their excessive involvement in imperial wars. We are headed in the same direction.
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» Osama, the official boogie man, has been dead since 12/01....
Posted by: CynicI
» I don't know what all the facts are...
Posted by: leafsong1
» I am glad to hear it, it means the truth is slowly emerging from the dark pit of ....
Posted by: CynicI
» Unfortunately, no. I'm not a new convert.
Posted by: leafsong1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: and_abottleofrum on Sep 3, 2009 3:46 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama should be ashamed of his position as America's "first black president." He does dishonor to this privilege.
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» RE: It's quite sad Obama turned out to be the first "black" president.....His name
Posted by: Captainmagic
» RE: The sad thing is
Posted by: solrev
» More evidence that you're an extremist right-wing lunatic.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» RE: Tragic.
Posted by: oregoncharles
Comments are closed-
Posted by: parrotuya on Sep 3, 2009 3:55 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sending more soldiers and marines will simply give the locals more targets to shoot at and thus, more casualties. Obama should re-consider his position there or face and LBJ-like crisis.
There will be no victory for the US there, ever.
DOWn, baby, DOWn!
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» The futility of fighting a war on terrorism
Posted by: jonodavidson
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Posted by: GatoPreto on Sep 3, 2009 3:56 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Watch it, burn it on CD, and pass it around. This madness has got to end.
http://tinyurl.com/n2du5z
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» The Power of Nightmares Is So Powerful Because It Doesn't Blatantly Say
Posted by: tony_opmoc
» "prophit(0)", you're one Hell of a strange "progressive".
Posted by: GuitarBill
» To be perfectly Honest - I'm Far from Convinced That It Was an Israeli Job...
Posted by: tony_opmoc
» "Dancing Israelis"? BS!
Posted by: GuitarBill
» RE: Actually neither did I in the beginning, but I didn't know at the time....
Posted by: tony_opmoc
» Ok, I will, I am always willing to keep an open mind and change it when it fits.
Posted by: CynicI
» Yeah, in other words you start from a predetermined conclusion and work backward
Posted by: GuitarBill
» BS! You carry water and lie for Al Qaeda on a daily basis.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» GuitarBill - Stop Feeling So Guilty - You Are Trying Much Too Hard...
Posted by: tony_opmoc
» Am I supposed to respond to that stupid ad hominem?
Posted by: GuitarBill
» I Gave Up Latin at The Age of 10 I Could Have Had a Full Blown Classical Education
Posted by: tony_opmoc
» Miriam webster.....
Posted by: CynicI
» RE: Miriam webster.....
Posted by: tony_opmoc
» Oh, how fascinating. I will check out that link... I love good music.
Posted by: CynicI
» The Power of Nightmares was DEBUNKED by Peter Bergen of Nation Magazine
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Another Interesting Interpretation by Guitarbill (Part I)
Posted by: Belisarius6
» Sorry, but you're wrong. "Beware the Holy War" is not the correct article.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Wrong Article? It's the Actual ORIGINAL Article!
Posted by: Belisarius6
» Wrong! I gave you a link to both articles IN FULL.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Partial Reprints and Opinion Pieces Don't Count.
Posted by: Belisarius6
» You're quote mining. Since when is quote mining honest?
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Partial Reprints and Opinion Pieces Don't Count.
Posted by: Belisarius6
» And quote mining the article you cite doesn't count, either.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Partial Reprints and Opinion Pieces Don't Count. (Third Try Lucky)
Posted by: Belisarius6
» And quote mining the article you cite does nothing to support your argument.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Again, quote mining the article doesn't count.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Another Interesting Interpretation by Guitarbill (Part II)
Posted by: Belisarius6
» Only one problem. You cite the wrong Bergen article; thus, it is you who misrepresents Bergen.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» You are misleading the reader, and deliberately misinterpreting Bergen's article.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» And the Nation is funded by who????? Aaah the Puffin Foundation.....
Posted by: CynicI
» RE: And the Nation is funded by who????? Aaah the Puffin Foundation.....
Posted by: EncinoM
» Oh, it's the "evil" Puffin Foundation. (What an idiot) %^)
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Mike Rivero at www.whatreallyhappened.com....
Posted by: zigy
» Better yet, two french reporters from Figaro not only confirmed...
Posted by: CynicI
» RE: Better yet, two french reporters from Figaro not only confirmed...
Posted by: EncinoM
» No problem: Check it out for yourself......
Posted by: CynicI
» RE: No problem: Check it out for yourself......
Posted by: EncinoM
Comments are closed-
Posted by: morgan1 on Sep 3, 2009 4:25 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: What to do?
Posted by: oregoncharles
Comments are closed-
Posted by: MyLeftFoot on Sep 3, 2009 5:33 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Viet-ghanistan indeed.
Posted by: jwverez
Comments are closed-
Posted by: vkobaya1 on Sep 3, 2009 5:40 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Sorry, that slepp isn't working on us anymore. Disinformation, provocatuering is a tool of the.....
Posted by: CynicI
» RE: Meaningless "Victory"
Posted by: VZEQICVA
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Walks-in-Storms on Sep 3, 2009 5:52 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Election after election since World War II, "change" after change after change, lie after lie after lie, a demonstration of mendacity like being hammered metronymically, the prole U.S. public watches and responds like children enamored of Santa Claus await his arrival.
GOD DAMN - it's like waking to find yourself in an asylum for the insane with no way out.
How the hell can anyone with even the dimmest knowledge of history, how can anyone with even the most tenuous grasp of reality, fail to see what has happened? How can anyone observing the Brobdingnagian growth of the military industrial complex outgoing President Eisenhower warned of fail to realize? How does anyone aware of 752 military basis in 124 countries, of sixty-five plus nuclear submarines, of thirteen of fourteen nuclear aircraft carriers, of fleets of warplanes costing tens of millions, even billions of dollars per copy, and of eight hundred billion dollar a year expenditures on the military fail to realize?
How can anyone watching the relentlessly continual incident of war - war for reasons so infantile as to be utterly ludicrous ("American interests" - WHAT interests?!) - fail to at least suspect the military industrial complex coup d'etat that has occurred?
How can anything sentient fail to recognize that someone higher than the whorehouse on the Potomac is "in power" and control?
Well, someone once said that perception is reality. And "perception" means the media.
Q.E.D.
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» RE: Nothing so amazes me, and nothing demonstrates more clearly . . .
Posted by: Captainmagic
» The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable
Posted by: CRaPWHiSPeReR
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Grozny_Guy on Sep 3, 2009 6:07 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: closecrater on Sep 3, 2009 6:14 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Yet Another Gift from the Neocon Scum
Posted by: Captainmagic
» You Actually STILL Believe the Shit You've Been Fed?
Posted by: tony_opmoc
» RE: You Actually STILL Believe the Shit You've Been Fed?
Posted by: closecrater
» Waterboard Silverstein
Posted by: weathered
» Never mind dithered. He's AlterNet's local version of National Socialist lite.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Yes, killed McNeil, made billions on the insurance, buried all the SEC and CIA INVESTIGATIONS ....
Posted by: CynicI
» Question, idiot: Since when does "they" mean "I"?
Posted by: GuitarBill
» RE: BIN LADEN DIED IN 12/01.... wake up and get off it. Everyone in the world....
Posted by: EncinoM
» "I" don't claim anything, the SCIENTIFICALLY PEER REVIEWED EUROPEAN SCIENTISTS CLAIM IT.
Posted by: CynicI
» RE: "I" don't claim anything, the SCIENTIFICALLY PEER REVIEWED EUROPEAN SCIENTISTS CLAIM IT.
Posted by: EncinoM
» That's right, "prophit(0)", when your back's against the wall, change the subject.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Hahahaha, talk about a questionable source...... how funny!
Posted by: CynicI
» Then refute the evidence provided therein, propagandist.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» BIN LADEN HAS BEEN DEAD SINCE 12/01 and he has never admitted....
Posted by: CynicI
» You stupid terrorist apologizing piece of filth.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» I am not.... I do not apologize for Israel's terrorism world wide, in Gaza, or their role in 9-11...
Posted by: CynicI
» Idiot. I never claimed that you apologize for Israel. You're an Al Qaeda apologist.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» GuitarBill: Your Lies are as Bad as Your Invective
Posted by: Belisarius6
» How does that prove Osama bin Laden is still alive?
Posted by: GuitarBill
» How about CNN and the Sunday Tasmanian as a secondary source?
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Lets see! Is Peter Bergen of the nation lying tooo???? well, who is the nation funded by?
Posted by: CynicI
» You're full-of-crap. I gave you four seperate sources of the same information.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» And every single one of them is owned by the same cabal that owns....
Posted by: CynicI
» Ah, so your "evidence" is GUILT BY ASSOCIATION?
Posted by: GuitarBill
» No, its GUILT BY OWNERSHIP AND CONTROL..... hehehe
Posted by: CynicI
» That's right, change the subject. Typical dishonest truther scum.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» "The Power of Nightmares" was debunked by Peter Bergen of Nation Magazine in 2004.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» The Nation is a partisan source
Posted by: leafsong1
» And the conspiranoid propaganda 911 deniers cite is not "a partisan source"?
Posted by: GuitarBill
» There are no reliable sources on the subject, but...
Posted by: leafsong1
» Right! It's the "evil" Puffin Foundation. [What an idiot.] %^)
Posted by: GuitarBill
» OK, so what your saying is Bergen is lying.... figaro doesn't need to lie, but Bergen does... look
Posted by: CynicI
» That's not what I said, illiterate. Can you read, "prophit(0)"?
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Another Interesting Interpretation by Guitarbill (Part I)
Posted by: Belisarius6
» Wrong! Get your facts straight, please.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Wrong! You're deliberately misinterpreting Bergen's article.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Another Interesting Interpretation by Guitarbill (Part II)
Posted by: Belisarius6
» Clearly, it's not me who "misrepresents Bergen", but you.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Partial Reprints and Opinion Pieces Don't Count.
Posted by: Belisarius6
» But you aren't citing the right article. Get it through your thick skull.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Partial Reprints and Opinion Pieces Don't Count. (Third Try Lucky)
Posted by: Belisarius6
» And quote mining the article you cite does nothing to support your argument.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Anyone Who Actually Reads the Full Article Will Know the Truth
Posted by: Belisarius6
» No, all they'll discover is that you quote mined the article.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» You said this, dear Shill............
Posted by: CynicI
» And that's exactly what you are, "prophit(0)".
Posted by: GuitarBill
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mjt on Sep 3, 2009 6:26 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We could have taken out the terrorist training camps and left these poor people to them selves. But no, Bush43 had to prove that he was more capable than anyone else in history. Against all rational advice, Bush43 decided he wanted to be the first successful invader of Afghanistan since the Mongol invasion of 1200.
When will we ever learn to leave other people alone? We don't help them evolve up the societal curve by killing and maiming them. We just drive them further down into poverty, hatred and fundamentalism. We are also doing the same in our own society, just not directly killing and maiming on our own soil.
You can do more to change culture and national behavior in the third world with bluejeans, Ipods, clean well water, medical care and some educational assistance. Ever so much cheaper, more effective. No moral hangover, no collateral damage to our own economy.
But stuck in an ethical and intellectual rut, Bush44 repeats the mistakes of Bush43, and to his everlasting debit, enlarges them.
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» Oh, my Gawd, another one who doesn't have a clue what is going on...
Posted by: CynicI
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ETSpoon on Sep 3, 2009 6:33 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't want to hear or read one word about how terrible the Taliban is because these turbaned punks, many of whom are the sons of our old mujahideen buddies from twenty years ago, stop little Afghan girls from going to school.
And I especially don't what to hear one word of surprise or shock or indignation when our fighting soldiers and Marines march off those airliners and up to the TV cameras and tell the world, they could have finished the "job" (that "job" being to kill as many Afghans as humanly possible) if the politicians and "liberals" hadn't stabbed them in the back!
Believe me, we will hear interviews echoing those sentiments from returning G.I.s and Marines once some one pulls the plug on this thing in Afghanistan. Why? Because this is an All Volunteer Force, the bastard child of anti-Vietnam war activists and Richard Nixon, midwifed by free market Jesus, Milton J. Friedman. Our men and women in uniform are there because they want to be there. never mind if it is because of economic necessity, just don't take my son to be a soldier. Take the neighbor's boy.
Another reason many returning vets will be ungrateful because President Obama or the Congress or whomever pulled their sorry asses out of Afghan quagmire is because they were doing "God's" work killing and/or converting heathen Muslims. Remember this Alternet.org article from April 21, 2007 Birth of the Christian Soldier: How Evangelicals Infiltrated the American Military, by Michael L. Weinstein and David Seay, Thomas Dunne Books? Or how about this news story from Agence France Presse from February 13, 2008 US military accused of harboring fundamentalism. Or This one from Democracy Now! from May of this year: “The Crusade for a Christian Military”: Are US Forces Trying to Convert Afghans to Christianity?
Won't that be just great. A bunch of pissed off ex-Marine, ex-paratrooper snake-handlers and holy rollers ready, willing and able to convert the country to their twisted "Taliban" version of Christianity by force if necessary. Quite frankly, I think I'd rather we funnel off these armed and dangerous Jesus-loving pinheads off to fight and die, especially die, in a pointless war in a foreign land than hand them to jobs in our civilian police departments.
Whatever the out-come in Afghanistan, it will not be pretty. But a percipitious withdrawal, say within 90 days, will have even uglier repercussions domestically.
Please think about it. You have been warned.
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» America is not Israel's Pontius Pilate
Posted by: weathered
» "they want to be there"
Posted by: Gabba_Gabba_Hey
» RE: emember, folks...
Posted by: Captainmagic
» Yeah - send Christians to Afghanistan!
Posted by: Gabba_Gabba_Hey
» Are you talking about THESE taliban marching into Kabul????
Posted by: CynicI
» RE: emember, folks...
Posted by: Crazy H
» You sick, evil pig
Posted by: leafsong1
» **this is me playing the worlds tiniest violin**
Posted by: CRaPWHiSPeReR
Comments are closed-
Posted by: NoPCZone on Sep 3, 2009 6:48 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the execution of such a plan, nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations, and passionate attachments for others, should be excluded; and that, in place of them, just and amicable feelings towards all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges towards another a habitual hatred or a habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable, when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur. Hence, frequent collisions, obstinate, envenomed, and bloody contests. The nation, prompted by ill-will and resentment, sometimes impels to war the government, contrary to the best calculations of policy...The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of nations, has been the victim.
So likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions; by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill-will, and a disposition to retaliate, in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld. And it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation), facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country, without odium, sometimes even with popularity; gilding, with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good, the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.
As avenues to foreign influence in innumerable ways, such attachments are particularly alarming to the truly enlightened and independent patriot. How many opportunities do they afford to tamper with domestic factions, to practice the arts of seduction, to mislead public opinion, to influence or awe the public councils...
Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy to be useful must be impartial; else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people, to surrender their interests.
The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible...
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» Free US from Israel
Posted by: weathered
» That is an excellent point... we are beginning to look like Israel...
Posted by: CynicI
Comments are closed-
Posted by: dipconsult on Sep 3, 2009 6:49 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Probably the invasion of Afghanistan was politically inevitable given that it was used as a platform for Al Qaeda not only for managing 9/11 but for the preceding terrorists acts.
But it was high risk and the invasion was only successful because it used warlords for success and so the occupation and resultant Afghan government were beholden to them. And Aghanistan's history showed it to be even more opposed to occupation than most countries.
So Bush had only say three years to use his then immense worldwide support to get the funding and international expertise to make a real difference in rebuilding Afghanistan after the Soviet war and the civil wars(s) which followed - not to speak of the devastation caused by thew Taliban.
But against all common sense and the dire warnings of we Cassandras - some very highly placed (like Senators Bird and Kennedy and Brent Scowcroft and our British Robin Cook) - Bush/Blair wrecked then then good chances for a crash programme in Afghanistan by invading Iraq which then had for years the top priority for troops, expertise, and funding. Perhaps worse - wide international support for Bush from virtually every significant nation (including China and Russia and at least tacit support from Muslim countries).
Anti-Americanism soared worldwide - even in the UK. And Afghanistan remained on hold with no takers - not even Nato members - to share the financial and military burden.
By the time Obama came to power Afghanistan was all but lost. He inherited two "Vietnams" - in Iraq and Afghanistan. The problem is to leave both countries with the least possible damage to US and Western interests, and indeed to the interests of all countries opposed to international terrorism .
OK - that's the diagnosis. What's to be done? First there has to be a holding operation - no doubt involving temporary increased troop levels. Second there must be far less "collateral damage" - Vietnam was lost more by |"collateral damage" than any other facto - the writer was there twice during the war and found the entire population was anti-American from the President to the girl in the rice field.
Third - Bush's confrontation must be followed by a chastened US seeking international cooperation - not for fighting but for bringing about real change: a) in government, no matter who is proclaimed winner of flawed elections, b)in mounting wherever possible real effective reconstruction that will be felt by every Afghan who benefits. This would be a big incentive to others to want to better heir conditions - what does the Taliban offer? c) the mere re-asssembly of the support Bush had in the beginning in 2001 would go a long way to change the entire situation. Russia and China - and Iran - for example do not want the Taliban back giving a base to Al Qaeda.
Think cooperation as the only means left to try to get America out of this "Vietnam" that Bush made. Think - what would you do if you were Obama? Just pack up and go? Think through the consequences.
But for any success in getting international cooperation, Obama will have to show he really is moving America back to international cooperation and away from confrontation. And that means for starters making a real move to resolve the Israel Palestine running sore by standing up to Israel's hard line government in favour of America's and the world's real interests. Right now that means stopping settlement spread. It is still Palestine that is the recruiting serjeant for Al Qaeda and Muslim extremism.
Maybe it is too late now after Bush.
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» Is this serious????
Posted by: CynicI
Comments are closed-
Posted by: dipconsult on Sep 3, 2009 6:51 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Probably the invasion of Afghanistan was politically inevitable given that it was used as a platform for Al Qaeda not only for managing 9/11 but for the preceding terrorists acts.
But it was high risk and the invasion was only successful because it used warlords for success and so the occupation and resultant Afghan government were beholden to them. And Aghanistan's history showed it to be even more opposed to occupation than most countries.
So Bush had only say three years to use his then immense worldwide support to get the funding and international expertise to make a real difference in rebuilding Afghanistan after the Soviet war and the civil wars(s) which followed - not to speak of the devastation caused by thew Taliban.
But against all common sense and the dire warnings of we Cassandras - some very highly placed (like Senators Bird and Kennedy and Brent Scowcroft and our British Robin Cook) - Bush/Blair wrecked then then good chances for a crash programme in Afghanistan by invading Iraq which then had for years the top priority for troops, expertise, and funding. Perhaps worse - wide international support for Bush from virtually every significant nation (including China and Russia and at least tacit support from Muslim countries).
Anti-Americanism soared worldwide - even in the UK. And Afghanistan remained on hold with no takers - not even Nato members - to share the financial and military burden.
By the time Obama came to power Afghanistan was all but lost. He inherited two "Vietnams" - in Iraq and Afghanistan. The problem is to leave both countries with the least possible damage to US and Western interests, and indeed to the interests of all countries opposed to international terrorism .
OK - that's the diagnosis. What's to be done? First there has to be a holding operation - no doubt involving temporary increased troop levels. Second there must be far less "collateral damage" - Vietnam was lost more by |"collateral damage" than any other facto - the writer was there twice during the war and found the entire population was anti-American from the President to the girl in the rice field.
Third - Bush's confrontation must be followed by a chastened US seeking international cooperation - not for fighting but for bringing about real change: a) in government, no matter who is proclaimed winner of flawed elections, b)in mounting wherever possible real effective reconstruction that will be felt by every Afghan who benefits. This would be a big incentive to others to want to better heir conditions - what does the Taliban offer? c) the mere re-asssembly of the support Bush had in the beginning in 2001 would go a long way to change the entire situation. Russia and China - and Iran - for example do not want the Taliban back giving a base to Al Qaeda.
Think cooperation as the only means left to try to get America out of this "Vietnam" that Bush made. Think - what would you do if you were Obama? Just pack up and go? Think through the consequences.
But for any success in getting international cooperation, Obama will have to show he really is moving America back to international cooperation and away from confrontation. And that means for starters making a real move to resolve the Israel Palestine running sore by standing up to Israel's hard line government in favour of America's and the world's real interests. Right now that means stopping settlement spread. It is still Palestine that is the recruiting serjeant for Al Qaeda and Muslim extremism.
Maybe it is too late now after Bush.
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» I don't buy it
Posted by: james108
» Good job, no "great job", James.
Posted by: CynicI
» The idea that THE Superpower needs to occupy one of the weakest...
Posted by: leafsong1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: xi_people on Sep 3, 2009 7:18 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Did you know that another "largest embassy in the world" is being planned for Pakistan? Does this sound like "change you can believe in"?
Remember all those rumors about Bush/Cheney refusing to leave office? It turns out that the "democratic" process was allowed to go forward because the PTB already had their next puppet lined up; someone who would fool the people into thinking that some kind of change was occurring, while the same policies would continue uninterrupted.
If Obama thinks that people will continue to be dazzled by his smile, he has a big awakening coming. It is now very clear what he is, and that masses of supporters were handily duped.
To those who scoffed when they were warned that Obama had the potential to be worse than Bush, you were warned.
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» I can fully support what you are saying about Pakistan with links if you need them.
Posted by: CynicI
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jwverez on Sep 3, 2009 7:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: SteveA on Sep 3, 2009 7:32 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: George Will may make a difference - yes he will
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: George Will may make a difference - yes he will (NO, He Won't.)
Posted by: Jayzer
» I agree with everything you said, except the war on terror.
Posted by: CynicI
» Unfortunately, this agenda is bigger than any one person.
Posted by: CynicI
Comments are closed-
Posted by: troubleinmind254 on Sep 3, 2009 7:56 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: austex_chris on Sep 3, 2009 8:01 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have a degree in Middle Eastern Studies, so I know a thing or two about the situation. Afghanistan is not a winnable war, period. There is nothing to win. It has been a lawless, wild area for as long as anyone can remember, heck Alexander's army generals could have told you not to get bogged down there.
I was one of the few people who opposed the invasion of Afghanistan in the first place, there was way too much public support for the invasion in the wake of 9/11. Any one who knew anything about the region would have known that it was a bad idea. But Bush put us in the worst position, because now there are only two options:
1) Add more troops to Afghanistan and fight off the Taliban as best you can, knowing that the terrain and culture will make it near impossible to ever win, but at least you can prevent the Taliban from taking over at the cost of war casualties.
2) Pull out and let the Taliban eventually take over again (and they will) and just ignore the carnage that ensues as a result of the withdrawal. There will be retribution for anyone who is thought to be someone who worked with the Americans and they will take their culture back to the violent and misogynist way it was before the invasion.
There are no other political options. There will never be a western style democracy there, it just does not fit into the culture. War there only creates more resentment and terrorists. The more civilian casualties there are, the more potential recruits there are for extremists.
So sure, we can be mad about more casualties in the US military. But the alternative of letting Afghanistan fall is just as bad, if not worse. So the question is, how much can we blame Obama? He is not Superman, he can't solve this problem. He is screwed either way.
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» As long as Emanuel/Likud infects
Posted by: weathered
» RE: Is it Obama's fault?
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» While what you wrote is true, it doesn't matter. Its the agenda....
Posted by: CynicI
» RE: While what you wrote is true, it doesn't matter. Its the agenda....
Posted by: austex_chris
» Its not our place to tell others how to run their country.
Posted by: CynicI
» RE: Its not our place to tell others how to run their country.
Posted by: austex_chris
» I say, no more war. Its wrong on so many levels.....
Posted by: CynicI
» RE: I say, no more war. Its wrong on so many levels.....
Posted by: austex_chris
» Well, there are many options, but why leave the North Alliance?
Posted by: CynicI
» RE: Well, there are many options, but why leave the North Alliance?
Posted by: austex_chris
» You seem to be unable to comprehend or empathize or understand....
Posted by: CynicI
» RE: You seem to be unable to comprehend or empathize or understand....
Posted by: austex_chris
» One option
Posted by: james108
» well, stirred up and empowered anyway
Posted by: james108
» Who governs Afghanistan is not now, nor has it ever been, any of our business.
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Who governs Afghanistan is not now, nor has it ever been, any of our business.
Posted by: austex_chris
Comments are closed-
Posted by: symcokid on Sep 3, 2009 8:11 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Irony Alert, Folks
Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: Irony Alert, Folks --- Absolutely correct, that is why -----
Posted by: symcokid
» RE: We can win this Afghanistan war and -----
Posted by: VZEQICVA
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Col. Jackleg on Sep 3, 2009 8:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: mike1997 on Sep 3, 2009 8:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We have a perfectly good, unambiguous term for such people; the term is mercenary. Use it.
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» RE: misleading term
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: misleading term - It sure is
Posted by: VZEQICVA
Comments are closed-
Posted by: bh on Sep 3, 2009 8:55 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Southern Gal on Sep 3, 2009 9:08 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Why?
Posted by: austex_chris
» You ask "Why?" Because that is the global plan for dominating Eurasia according to Zbig....
Posted by: CynicI
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Posted by: JohnTruth2001 on Sep 3, 2009 9:14 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wake-up, sheeple!!!
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» the golden triangle wars continued
Posted by: tazdelaney
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Sep 3, 2009 9:51 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The much acclaimed General McChrystal feels we need a new starategy. I assume that's because the old one isn't working. It seems that 27,000 troops will be needed. McChrystal is a hard core warrior, I am not. Every American who comes home in a box is a victim of his failed strategy. I doubt that he sees it that way. Not his job. Because most of our elected officials have no military background, war is easy to sell. Bush and Cheney bought into the idea. It is an accepted military strategy to know when it becomes the responsibilty of the Generals to stop feeding our soldiers to their ego driven strategies. Realizing that it's time to quit is not cowardly. To continue doing what clearly does not work when it is costing lives, is treasonous. Every Afgan civilian who dies is an immoral act. McChrystal has to know that this is not the way to find the terrorists. It's a way to expand the war to include most of the Middle East. I like President Obama and believe him to be extremely bright. But intelligence is never across the board. The very smartest people have gaps and void in their vast amounts of knowledge. I think it's time for Obama to see that possibility in himself. Is he being sold a bill of goods by the people who make the goods? Maybe. Afte the Health Insurance debacle is won and he will win it I would like a detailed reason for Afganistan. No 'good war' Bull---t. He cannot use the word 'success'. I honestly don't believe he can justify not bringing everyone home. There's no speech good enough.
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» Your whole thesis falls apart with this piece of information you may not have had....
Posted by: CynicI
» RE: Your whole thesis falls apart with this piece of information you may not have had....
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: BlueBerry PickN on Sep 3, 2009 9:58 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
when CANADIANS were STUCK HOLDING DOWN HELMAND PROVINCE
while Americans threw us to the wolves. Your own Pentagon was astonished by Canada's work in Helmand. The EU was stunned by Canada's dedicated & less violent work there.
amazing.
but the American Public? couldn't give a damn if it didn't involve screaming "We're NUMBER ONE!, tickertape parades & the Stars N'Stripes...
Then Americans show up to carry their share & ACT LIKE FREAKY TRIGGER-HAPPY CHRISTIAN CRUSADERS... & roll out the Predator Drones...
& you're suddenly worried about AMERICANS?
...not the Afghans
...not the Pakistani
...not the OTHER NATO MEMBERS YOU ABANDONED...
nah... but when you're in debt up to your eyeballs & throwing YOUR LAST REMAINING ASSET into the warzone to hold off your creditors chasing down your other DEBT COLLATERAL
suddenly, Americans are demanding NATO CARRY YOUR WATER for you again
& you can't stop whinging about how horrible Afghanistan was.
THANKS FOR LISTENING TO US FOR THE LAST FEW YEARS!
& thanks is probably on its way from all the US troops WHO TOLD YOU AFGHANISTAN MADE IRAQ LOOK LIKE A TEAPARTY.
congratulations.
American arrogance reigns again: but you'd never know it, because you didn't listen to anybody but yourselves to get what you wanted.
Now you've got Obama & his Afghan mission: ENJOY!!
I hope NATO pulls out & leaves you there to enjoy what you started when you wouldn't TAKE OBL WHEN HE WAS OFFERED.
Hell, OBL is probably long gone & living on a remote beach island in Indonesia by now...
wow, Americans are self-centred.
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» bin laden lived at the crawford ranch?
Posted by: tazdelaney
» Yes, "we" are "dumbed down". I agree, "prophit(0)".
Posted by: GuitarBill
» RE: Personal Vendettas are Unbecoming and Off-topic.
Posted by: oregoncharles
» Whatever Charley. I find "prophit(0)'s" lies and propaganda "Unbecoming and Off-topic."
Posted by: GuitarBill
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Posted by: MeyravLevine on Sep 3, 2009 10:18 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Clinton hoped backing Taliban would allow control of the region and create a threat to Iran; not to mention UNICOL would have access to oil & gas resources.
And now? Nothing has changed. The US geo-political goal to maintain primary power requires it to setup bases in Afghanistan where it can launch military strikes against Iran, develop in-roads into the oil & gas resources in Central Asian countries and check Russian influence.
Unfortunately, Afghans don't want to cooperate with our strategic goals.
Is Obama going to pull us out of Afghan - actually AF-PAK?
We are in a lose-lose sitaution. Bush's fucked up decission to go to war has destabilized the entire region. The only solution is to sit-down and have good-faith negotiations with all parties involved.
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» RE: I agree on Iraq; I disagree on our ability to bring about a change
Posted by: MeyravLevine
» Boy, do I ever agree with you on that.... and I agree change will not happen....
Posted by: CynicI
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Posted by: tazdelaney on Sep 3, 2009 10:29 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
should be noted that 'liberal' woodrow wilson dragged the US into WWI to help fight 'the last of the king's wars' under the phrases 'the war to end all wars' and 'the war to make the world safe for democracy.' then 'liberal' FDR watches while senator prescott BUSH routes billions in money and technology from such as rockefeller/ford/GM/chrysler/dupont/kennedy to the nazis. Speer wrote in his journal that if not for america giving germany tank and tread tech, they never could've invaded anywhere... senator BUSH was convicted of 'trading with the enemy' in 1942, yet never did a day in prison as he was rich and strings to pull...
'liberal' truman nukes japan to show the soviets our new toy, then grants thousands of nazis immunity so as to import them into CIA/science/policing. truman creates the national security state, which can just be shortened to 'natse' as we now see. gives us the korean war. backs such thugs as batista and somoza, too.
then 'liberal' JFK sets up what senator frank church later called 'the golden triangle war' in vietnam (cambodia, laos, too.) 'liberal' LBJ kills a million vietnamese after the faked photos of the 'gulf of tonkin' incident fools all but two members of the entire congress (democrat morse of oregon, republican grunig of alaska voted against as they weren't just going baaaaa like the rest of the sheep.)
'liberal' carter says no more arms to the shah of iran, gets off of air force one and immediately gives the shah the most arms ever. 'liberal' clinton backs the genocidal embargo that killed at least 800,000 iraqis, over half a million children by US admission; he continued to back the guatemalan junta's genocide of mayan natives as their lands were sought by oil and resorts firms. clinton continued to back peru's vicious fujimori, also a killer of native peoples and others, who now is imprisoned in peru. clinton had his own war crimes in the balkan conflict and albania.
now obama turns coat on every campaign promise and gives us the expanded iraq-afpak wars complete with bush-cheney CIA rendition program of outsourced torture and protection of war criminals to the hilt. after all, he will soon be facing such charges himself as his body bag count rises.
not to say that the dems are worse than the GOP when it comes to slaughter... republicans are fascists outright. democrats are fascists in sheep's clothing. it is all government by garbage, bribed from the get-go by the military-industrial complex Ike warned us about, (that none since has heeded.)
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» Liar.... Eisenhower set up Viet Nam, while Kennedy had begun pulling the advisors out....
Posted by: CynicI
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Posted by: gunboat diplomat on Sep 3, 2009 10:40 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Iraq Violence Threatens Oil Deals
BAGHDAD, Aug. 27 (UPI) -- Recent events in Iraq have cast a pall over the government's plans to have a November auction for potentially lucrative oil contracts that are vital for the country's reconstruction.
Or because of this?
U.S. Death Toll at Record Low in Iraq, at Record High in Afghanistan, Sep 2, 2009
"There are currently 130,000 U.S. combat troops in Iraq, and Defense Secretary Robert Gates said at the end of July that if violence levels continue to stay low one of 14 combat units – about 5,000 personnel – may leave early, by the end of the year."
Troop levels in Afghanistan are only at 50,000 currently, up from 30,000 last year. By comparison, this means that we are still putting three times as much effort into Iraq than Afghanistan.
Not that you'd guess it from reading the U.S. press - but the deal appears to still be the same as it was under the Bush regime, going right back to Cheney's Energy Task Force Meetings in Feb 2001, featuring maps of Iraqi oilfields and lists of bidders - and guess who wasn't on that list?
Here's a blurb from the most recent round of Iraqi oil bids, UPI:
"All the other majors -- Exxon Mobil, Royal Dutch Shell and Chevron Corp. among them -- refused to lower their demands.
That's probably why no one is talking about Iraq - under Obama, Operation Iraqi Oil is proceeding just as it did under Bush.
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/53390
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» The troops in Iraq are being redirected to Af/Pak even as we speak and
Posted by: maxpayne
» and some believe that Obama is not warlike enough
Posted by: stellabloo
» RE: There are three times as many US troops in Iraq as in Afghanistan -
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» True, they don't know who is a contract killer, formerly known as ....
Posted by: CynicI
Comments are closed-
Posted by: badkitty on Sep 3, 2009 10:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Common sense and just general knowledge tell us that Barack Obama has been president for less than nine months. He inherited these wars started by people who although they didn't serve in Vietnam, wanted to fight it over again. I'm hoping that in these eight months, he has given the military enough rope to hang itself. Now that McChrystal has come back and said he needs more troops, it's time to say, "gee, I'm sorry, I think we'll leave instead". Obama is, by no stretch of the imagination, George W. Bush or Ronald Reagan. He was handed a very bad situation in every respect, economy, war, deficits, and worst of all, climate change. He's doing the best he can, and I hope he's learned that bipartisanship is a no go. He needs to end this war now, troops out by Christmas, and just ignore the weeping and wailing of the Republicans and their supporters. Next year he can really cut the defense budget, or get rid of it altogether.
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» And if you think things are bad right now ...
Posted by: stellabloo
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Posted by: tazdelaney on Sep 3, 2009 10:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Garvagh on Sep 3, 2009 11:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: spanky on Sep 3, 2009 11:24 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And the people, satiated and exhausted by the orgy of the campaign, have returned to their lives, leaving the elites to their own devices for another 4 years, as always.
I forgot who said this, but the fact that he was *allowed* to be elected president tells you everything you need to know about the extent to which he will be *allowed* to change things.
ps: I voted for Obama
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» RE: why is any of this surprising?
Posted by: maxpayne
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Posted by: zigy on Sep 3, 2009 11:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Americans say they want out, but their lifestyle belies their words.
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» If the public understood, they would make the necessary sacrifices...
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: If the public understood, If they knew!.
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» I concede your point leafsong1, partialy.
Posted by: zigy
» Once again, the genius of insight rears its glorious head....
Posted by: CynicI
» Zbig sold America out
Posted by: pomes
» That is because he is an Internationalist with his fellow bankers....
Posted by: CynicI
» I always obtain...
Posted by: zigy
» Thanks, Zigy, for those kind words, but I have a present for you....
Posted by: CynicI
» Thanks, CynicI...
Posted by: zigy
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Posted by: tony_opmoc on Sep 3, 2009 12:01 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They think we are making it up...
And we say - well this coming weekend - we are going to burn the Straw Jack...
They say - you mean Jack Straw - isn't he one of your War Criminals?
I say - Straw Jack
They say Jack Straw...
No Straw Jack
Check out The Original Version of the Wicker Man - rather than The Scottish remake - or even more dire - the American remake...
And you may get the idea...
I was going to post this on a Right Wing American Republican Website Populated by the KKK - but didn't have the balls.
They are Fucking Mad
Tony
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Posted by: tony_opmoc on Sep 3, 2009 1:38 PM
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But judging from the diversity of colours and supposed races and supposed religions...
Neither of our kids are in the slightest bit racially or religiously prejudiced whatsoever...
They both also are really Charitable human beings in the most fundamental understanding of that word...
They actually go out and help people - sometimes people they have never met in their life
We are so proud of them...
And when the latest Israeli attack happenned on the Palestinians - it wasn't my lad - who cut the plug on them and denied them any further access to the UK Backbone
It wasn't him that told them to
FUCK OFF
And despite them placing a massive new big order with him - for which he bought absolutely loads of new hardware - out of his money - for which he never received any payment - he was doing it on the basis of trust...
Like the UK authorities had never denied any of the Israelis physical access...
Now the Game Had Changed
You Cannot Do That
And So My Lad was suddenly a bit skint...
Cos he'd bought all this new hardware - which wasn't going to get paid for - and also a significant percentage of his current business
Had been banned access
You see - We do Have Som Principles in London
We did the same thing to the Apartheid in South Africa
We Ain't Fucking Having It
Tony
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Posted by: tony_opmoc on Sep 3, 2009 2:14 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I Had Told Her Of All The Dangers of Protests in London and How They Could Turn Out....
Her Brother had arranged an Interview For Her The Same Day - So That She Could Earn Some Money Before She Starts University...(A Brotherley Diversion)
But She Knew She Had To Do It....
Because when She Was 15 - She Was Arrested By The Police For Doing Absolutely Nothing Wrong...
And Had Her DNA Extracted - And The Police Threw Her To The Ground - and Handcuffed Her...
All Her Friends had run away
But She had done nothing wrong - so didn't run
So She had been through all the trauma of being arrested and thrown into jail at the age of 15
So she thought
I am going to get my own back
I am going into London and take the Photographs For My "A" Level Project in Photography and Art..
And Did
And Has Got a Brilliant Place at University as a Result...
And she is arranging the part time jobs to help pay for her degree - and has already been invited on a trip with her new mates to go to Amsterdam in November
And is Really Looking Forward To It...
She is now trying to pay for her accommodation with her Grant and Student Loan which has not arrived yet...If she pays it all before she starts she is given a free coupon worth £500 which is divided and allocated in equal parts every month so that she can eat if she doesn't get a job.
And Her Mum said - You Know when I was doing the Childminding - as you were growing up...
Well each week when I got paid I put a bit of money into an account for you - and over the years - it accumulated quite a bit of interest..
And I said - something much the same...
So last night we dug out all the accounts that had been in her name since she was born...
And said - you need to transfer this into your account now...
Her Mum had saved about £2,000 for her
..Now you might think that is not much...
But its better than nowt
Tony
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Posted by: maxsmart on Sep 3, 2009 3:46 PM
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Posted by: Jill 2 on Sep 3, 2009 4:04 PM
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–Perhaps it is not Obama running the show at all.
Articles such as this one seem to assemble an aggressive counterpoint of increasingly justifiable doubt as to who is really in command of the depraved and murderous American Afghan nightmare.
Recently in San Francisco the journalist and author John Pilger said that the distinguished American, Daniel Ellsberg (he of Pentagon Papers fame) believed that under Bush, some kind of a de facto a military coup took place in America. Craven idiots– their hands awash in blood– and assorted apologists, otherwise known as moderates and 'voices of reason,' will of course label Ellsberg as "shrill" and an 'off the wall' delusional 'dead ender.' Not surprisingly, these sycophants are hardly all Republicans or conservatives–but most dangerously– self proclaimed Progressives.
Now that this condescending epithet–so often used unfailingly in the so called 'progressive' blogosphere to disparage and mock more radical views – is losing its shopworn luster, one wonders what adjective will replace it when Daniel Ellsberg's musings turn out one day to be true? Indeed, what is emerging is a sense that the defeat of fascism in America, is in fact congruent with the American military defeat in Afghanistan and Iraq. Perhaps that must unflinchingly become the programmatic nexus of any truly progressive political stratagem of liberation. You can't have one without the other.– (Jill Bains)
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» RE: Let's call all Obama's critics shrill, radical left, hysterics!
Posted by: badkitty
» RE: Let's call all Obama's critics shrill, radical left, hysterics!
Posted by: Jill 2
» Remember the Iran Contra affair
Posted by: jonodavidson
» RE: Remember the Iran Contra affair
Posted by: Jill 2
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Posted by: pomes on Sep 3, 2009 4:16 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe then he wouldn't have caught America into the same trap. Then again, maybe he would've. Zbig was one of the first advisors on the Obama campaign, and I'm sure still has his ear now.
Funny, fishy times.
Zbigniew Brzezinski:
How Jimmy Carter and I Started the Mujahideen
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» Zbig's Chess Game has Been Analysed By The Best in The USA, Russia, UK and China
Posted by: tony_opmoc
» true, but...
Posted by: james108
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Posted by: tony_opmoc on Sep 3, 2009 6:10 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I Say - Well Isn't It Completely Obvious???
It is Not You Stupid Cunts With Your Student Loans and Cushy Daddy Supported Lifestyles Where You Just Have Fun - Waiting For The Call To Be in Power...
Nah - You Have Got It Wrong....
It's All The Kids Who Started Their Own Businesses at The Age of 13....
They will be Employing The Best of You - when you leave University...
The rest of you will be lucky to get a job in McDonalds...
You don't honestly think you can crawl up Cameron's Arse Do You?
That Slimeball won't last 5 minutes
He's just a Tony Blair Clone Airhead - He hasn't got a Clue from his elbow to his arse to his windmill
Get yourself a job doing something you really love and earn some money providing something useful to other people
Tony
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Posted by: tony_opmoc on Sep 3, 2009 6:55 PM
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Posted by: tony_opmoc on Sep 3, 2009 7:28 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And Your US Dollar
How Do You Know We Have Any Respect For You Whatsover?
Do You Think We Care About Your US Dollar?
When You Are Threatening Us With Your Bombs and Your Guns and Your Nuclear Missiles...
Don't You Realise
THAT IS THE CORE REASON - Why We Don't Like You
You Really Need To Arrest All Your War Criminals and Put Them On Trial...
And Convert All Your Destructive Energy In Your Useless Nuclear Bombs Into Safe Clean Electricity For Peaceful Purposes Using Thorium Nuclear Reactors Currently Going Into Production in India..
If you continue to behave like spoilt brats - then Over 90% of you will live in Poverty - and You Will Fight Each Other
And We Will Watch on High Definition TV...
Whereas If You Give Up All Your Weapons of Mass Destruction - You May Well Eventually Be Re-Admitted To The World Community...
But You Need a New Government
We Don't Get on With NAZI FASCIST ARSEHOLES - in fact we went to war with them in 1939.
Tony
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» RE: Have Americans Actually Travelled To Africa and India and Russia and Europe and China
Posted by: Captainmagic
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Posted by: tony_opmoc on Sep 3, 2009 7:54 PM
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Posted by: wormfarmer on Sep 3, 2009 8:18 PM
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Posted by: tony_opmoc on Sep 3, 2009 8:48 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And I say - we Confiscate all your Weapons of Mass Destruction without You Noticing and We Disarm Them - and Extract All Their Energy and Convert It Into Electricity for Peaceful Puposes...
Meanwhile You think you still have them...
And We Really Annoy You - and Go
Na na Na na Na na Na...
Your Weapons Don't Work Any More
Tony
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Posted by: Lemuel G. on Sep 3, 2009 10:48 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
British, Australian, and New Zealand armed-forces have taken a number of casualties in this, your, war (and probably more nations that I don't know about 'cause I can't be bothered researching). These nations' (your friends, yes?) armed-forces are considered among the most professional and effective in the world, and fight bravely - usually for no better reason other than that it is their job and they don't want to let down their buddies.
New Zealand is sending back it's SAS after diplomatic pressure from the US, and you can bet they're (you-fucking-know-who) turning the screws on the rest of their friends as we type (meaning that your political and military leadership don't think we all suck so fuckin' badly).
And don't start with the Germans... did it occur to you that the Germans, as a people, have a vivid and terrible collective-memory of occupying foreign nations and trying to pacify unruly populations? Popular-opinion there (Germany)would not tolerate a combat-role for their troops.
For fuck's sake... do some research, this was fucking weak - and insulting; when you next moan of American ignorance - just remember that you are guilty of it's propagation.
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Posted by: axisofoil on Sep 3, 2009 10:52 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: jonodavidson on Sep 4, 2009 2:09 AM
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No one so bold as Bin Laden masterminded, organized, planned and funded the attacks on 9/11. There were no well laid plans discovered in an easily located apartment to be discovered after the fact. The terrorists who carried out the plan were competent enough to highjack all four planes before the first plane struck. They were technically and tactically proficient enough to fly the planes to their intended targets at a low altitude using terrain features to navigate. These guys prepared for this attack meticulously, and Al Queda has not demonstrated the ability to recruit and train terrorists as competent in any previous or subsequent attack. I do not think the terrorists from Bin Laden's Al Queda, who could not even park a truck bomb in the precise location, are capable of performing the well orchestrated attack that occurred on 9/11. If our government was worthy to be trusted, they would demonstrate their integrity by providing the public with the evidence they have to prove the accusations against Bin Laden are true. The evidence from Bin Laden's attack on the world trade center was provided to the public leaving no doubt that he masterminded that attack.
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Posted by: Gyre on Sep 4, 2009 4:52 AM
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