COMMENTS: 170
Million-Dollar Baby: How Much Would You Pay for a Baby If You Couldn't Have One?
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How much would you pay for a baby, if you couldn't have one?
Given that 1 in 12 U.S. women of childbearing age are infertile and it's a practice that's growing in acceptance, legality and practice, surrogacy's price tag is clearly pregnant with possibilities.
Sarah Jessica Parker and Matthew Broderick's recent surrogate twin birth pulled the issue into the debate ring with forceps. And whether or not you agree that surrogacy is a form of prostitution or baby selling, a way for the rich and famous to avoid disrupting their career plans or figures for progeny, or a form of exploitation, it's indisputable that surrogacy is often about a wealthier couple hiring a poorer woman to breed for them, and not paying that woman very much.
So consider this. Even though gestational surrogacy (when a woman carries a child not made of her genetic material, versus traditional surrogacy, when the woman who carries the child is also its genetic mother, impregnated with donor sperm) is illegal in several states, in the rest of the states it's a growing market.
Right now, unlike many medical procedures, the cost is subject to the free market. Couples pay the surrogate, the agency (when they use one), the IVF clinic and the legal fees at market value. Even though many argue that "most surrogates do it for altruistic reasons," as the practice develops, and a supply-and-demand issue inevitably emerges, the question is, should the cost be regulated to ensure that both rich and poor infertile couples can afford to have babies made of their own genetic material?
It's a feminist conundrum. On the one hand, why shouldn't surrogates be able to charge as much as they want for something they provide with their bodies? No one suggests that we limit the amount men can charge for lifting heavy planks of wood on a construction site, to name a ridiculous example. And I see almost nothing written about how men should sell their sperm for bargain-basement dollars to ensure even poor women can buy a vial.
But right now, even if a surrogate makes $25,000 (plus medical expenses) for her 10-month job, that's far less than minimum wage, and I think we can all agree that making the next generation is at least as important as making burgers. So why shouldn't surrogates be paid more?
On the other hand, we know what happens when there is any kind of desperation. Women who have struggled with infertility for years, in a culture that still defines motherhood as a key part of female identity, will arguably pay whatever they can afford.
They would pay hundreds of thousands of dollars, I'd wager, if that's what it cost, and they had that cash. I know an infertile couple, an artist and a musician. Should we tell them that they will simply never have a baby made of their genetic material, where an investment banker can? Should the rich and famous be the only ones who can afford it?
It's already not affordable for most, despite some claims that lots of non-celebrity, not "especially wealthy," Americans are doing it. I mean, how average can you be if you can afford the procedure?
To start with, you typically need to do at least one round of in vitro fertilization to retrieve eggs from the donor mother, fertilize them with the donor father's sperm and transfer them to the surrogate, which is about $8,000, plus about $4,000 in medication. You need to pay the surrogate, often $12,000-$30,000 for a single child (more for twins), and pay for medical fees. There are sometimes agency fees, travel fees (if you live in a state where surrogacy is illegal and you work with a surrogate in another state), extra legal fees (like to get the biological parents' names on the birth certificate in states where that's not automatic, and to create a contract with the surrogate if the arrangement is not done through an agency), and maternity clothing fees and other expenses. The total cost for a single birth is often $40,000-$70,000. And that's with the surrogate often earning far less than minimum wage.
Even if surrogates' motives are mostly altruistic, if demand increases, more surrogates will inevitably wonder if fairer compensation for their significant effort and valuable service might is in order. While it would be fairer to them, it would make the practice unaffordable for all but the elite: a situation that bears some resemblance to Margaret Atwood's dystopic novel The Handmaid's Tale.
So it seems there are three options. The first is to follow Canada's lead. In Canada, it's illegal to pay surrogates. You can pay for expenses related to the cost of pregnancy -- food, transportation to medical appointments, vitamins and so on (with receipts required for everything). It proves the altruism case, and can lead to some very meaningful experiences for both surrogate and parents. But it also means that though in theory most Canadian couples can access the service, in practice, there are almost no willing surrogates.
One Canadian woman I know, who found a volunteer surrogate on Craigslist, was afterward besieged by dozens of calls and e-mails from other women begging for her help. Very few women will volunteer to carry a baby for a relative or friend, let alone a stranger.
Alternatively, we could continue to let the free market determine the rate. Which, in my opinion, will (and should) climb, to fairly remunerate the surrogates.
Or, for the sake of debate, we could treat it more like the college-education funding model. Here's how it could work: All couples apply through an agency and are psychologically evaluated, as they are now. Then after being either accepted or declined based on that psychological assessment, they're given a means test.
Investment bankers pay more than teachers, but each pay, let's say, 10 percent of their net worth -- the former might pay $200,000, the latter, $10,000. And surrogates receive a standard amount that fairly remunerates them for their time and effort -- maybe even one that increases with each healthy birth?
Yes, educating people about adoption is a great idea. So is working to make motherhood into more of a choice and less of a necessity for female identity. But if we want surrogacy to be an option for more than the rich and famous in the future, we might have to carry a new model to term.
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Posted by: stellasolomons on Jul 25, 2009 12:56 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Propoganda website!
Posted by: ruehigeAngie
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Posted by: jparsons on Jul 25, 2009 1:10 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
as organs for sale. If someone is sick and has money,
and someone else is poor, the result is inevitable.
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Posted by: jamesryan87 on Jul 25, 2009 1:36 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: I'm FTM
Posted by: countingdaisies
» RE: I'm FTM
Posted by: Schnookums
» RE: I'm FTM
Posted by: countingdaisies
» RE: I'm FTM
Posted by: jamesryan87
» FTM
Posted by: kepstein7777
» RE: FTM
Posted by: Schnookums
» A lot of people know virtually nothing about transgender issues
Posted by: smadaj
» RE: A lot of people know virtually nothing about transgender issues
Posted by: jamesryan87
» RE: A lot of people know virtually nothing about transgender issues
Posted by: HillbillyRob
» RE: A lot of people know virtually nothing about transgender issues
Posted by: jamesryan87
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Posted by: kib on Jul 25, 2009 2:25 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: timenotonmyside on Jul 25, 2009 4:23 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Technology gives us million dollar babies every day that grow up with all kinds of special needs. Like the octuplut mom in the cash strapped state of California. Octuplut mom is unemployed and unmarried, and she has no way of raising her 14 children - all from in-vitro. But my, my how grand our medical technology is.
And you posters are probably the same ones bashing healthcare reform.
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Posted by: LeonBNJ on Jul 25, 2009 4:31 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Encourage Adoption - in theory, that sounds good, but...
Posted by: olderworker
» Not to mention that the adoption process itself is abusive
Posted by: begruntleed
» RE: Not to mention that the adoption process itself is abusive
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: ncourage Adoption
Posted by: Ruffy
» RE: ncourage Adoption
Posted by: HillbillyRob
» RE: ncourage Adoption
Posted by: HillbillyRob
» RE: ncourage Adoption
Posted by: FbO Vorcha
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Posted by: blogfrog on Jul 25, 2009 5:49 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
-make your money
-marry well
-do the surrogate thing and keep your figure and busy "its "my" life" schedule
-pay off the surrogate slave at birth and bring the genetically engineered off spring home
-hand it off to the nanny and/or aux pere and get back to your important "its my life" schedule
Perfect
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Posted by: aadinko on Jul 25, 2009 5:58 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
RT
Ultimate Anonymity
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» RE-Not crazy, that is the reality
Posted by: Ellie1
» Alternet, how about getting rid of this con artist? You give "editor's choice" awards
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: Quist on Jul 25, 2009 6:17 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We need to slow procreation (especially the wealthy who consume huge amounts of resources and usually cause much more pollution)...not increase it with surrogate parenting and fertility drugs.
BTW, maybe nature is trying to tell us something. Just a thought.
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» RE: ...YES: and many just keep ignoring the reality of overpopulation.
Posted by: mythmorph
» RE: ...YES: and many just keep ignoring the reality of overpopulation.
Posted by: sureshot45
» Ahh great...someone pushing eugenics.
Posted by: Quist
» RE: ...YES: and many just keep ignoring the reality of overpopulation.
Posted by: HillbillyRob
» RE: ...YES: and many just keep ignoring the reality of overpopulation.
Posted by: sureshot45
» RE: ...YES: and many just keep ignoring the reality of overpopulation.
Posted by: IowaGal
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Posted by: Ellie1 on Jul 25, 2009 6:54 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Why do these spoiled women think they are ENTITLED
Posted by: Phe
» RE: Why do these spoiled women think they are ENTITLED
Posted by: iatsebean
» RE: Why do these spoiled women think they are ENTITLED
Posted by: Phe
» It may be THEIR money and THEIR children...but it is OUR planet.
Posted by: Quist
» Repeating yourself does not make your argument anymore credible.
Posted by: Quist
» RE: Nice straw man Phe. I've heard this ridiculous argument many times before.
Posted by: Longdream
» Phe...and another fallacy. No one here is "fear mongering"!
Posted by: Quist
» RE: Nice straw man Phe. I've heard this ridiculous argument many times before.
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: It may be THEIR money and THEIR children...but it is OUR planet.
Posted by: mythmorph
» RE: Why do these spoiled women think they are ENTITLED
Posted by: Kati
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Posted by: Yooperjo on Jul 25, 2009 7:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Shouldn't the cost of these surrogate arrangements include escrow accounts to help the 'products' deal with the psychological, physical, and emotional fallout they undoubtedly will face?
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» RE: What about the products?
Posted by: Phe
» RE: BRAVO Yooperjo
Posted by: mythmorph
» RE: What about the products?
Posted by: Pinorrow
» I think when a child is raised in a loving home, the problems you outline are manageable
Posted by: smadaj
» RE: I think when a child is raised in a loving home, the problems you outline are manageable
Posted by: HillbillyRob
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Posted by: Megaera on Jul 25, 2009 8:18 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Some are wealthy. Some are not. Predictably, the wealthier people were those who hired surrogates. But, that also goes for the ones who had IVF treatments. IVF isn't cheap — financially or emotionally.
As a person who never had the biological imperative to reproduce, I can neither understand nor condemn those who do. I do believe that an unquenchable need to have one's own biological children — to the point of clinical depression or breaking the law — is a mental illness and should be treated. I have seen this illness in men and women. I have seen it destroy families. I have seen children already in this world suffer when her/his parent so desperately wants "just one more" biological child.
The exploitation of women for our wombs has gone on since the beginning of time. Canada's approach to surrogacy seems so much more enlightened and so much less open to abuse and exploitation than the U.S. model. Such an approach, coupled with making adoption more affordable, more flexible, and less mysterious a process, would go far to find parents for children who need families.
Finally, I have to come clean and admit that I would have adopted children had my partner been willing. But he maintained that far-too-often-held belief that "you never know what you're going to get" with adopted children. It's worth noting that he springs from blue-blood stock that came over on the Mayflower. He and his parents are very keen about their "lineage" and "ancestry". I, on the other hand, am of mixed-ancestry and mixed-race. All of my people, as far as I know, were peasants from Ireland, France, Portugal, and aboriginal Canada. I had nothing to do with the biological choices that were made that led to my birth. To feel proud of my "lineage" seems ridiculous and arrogant to me, especially when I know so much pride-of-lineage is born of racism and bigotry. Even my partner's blue-blood mother calls my Irish ancestry "dirty".
In this time of dwindling resources and uncertainty, the world doesn't need another Me. But it does need more people willing to parent a child, wherever they find her.
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» Canada's approach to surrogacy..
Posted by: Phe
» RE: Canada's approach to surrogacy..
Posted by: Megaera
» RE: Canada's approach to surrogacy..
Posted by: Phe
» RE: Canada's approach to surrogacy..
Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: The world doesn't need any more families like your boyfriend's.
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: The world doesn't need another Me.
Posted by: Kati
» I agree with you, but good heavens, where do you live!
Posted by: smadaj
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Posted by: Callibrarian on Jul 25, 2009 8:58 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My feelings exactly.
Let's get something straight---infertile women are not doing surrogate mothers such a great favor that they should feel so blessed with carring someone else's child that they should do it at bargain basement prices. At first I thought this article was going to be about fairness and outlifting people out of poverty, etc. Instead it's saying we should all be able to use the services of a poor women. Instead of Sarah Jessica Parker paying someone a gazillion dollars to have twins, we should be able to pay 10% of our McDonald's salary and get our own sets, too.
WTF?
How about this for an article: people are not entitled to a newborn of their own DNA. None of this surface talk about adoption, which for straight married couples is all to often code for taking home a newborn which you could pass off as your own. We're not enitiled, and therefore if it doesn't happen naturally, we can't boo hoo over the costs, the surrogate being the least of it.
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Posted by: quigonpaj on Jul 25, 2009 9:17 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Also, while adoption is a noble endeavor, how can you begrudge a person who wants to have their own genetic children? Both of the couples for whom my wife has carried children had multiple miscarriages and life-threatening ectopic pregnancies. They were absolutely NOT the silver-spoon, country-club, starlet, aristocratic types being portrayed in this article or in these posts. And, contrary to what some have suggested, she was not considered a "slave" at all. Quite the opposite. She was showered with affection, gifts, and appreciation. We still get pictures and have visited the kids on occassion. And the "rich folks" who paid for the procedure were nicer and more compassionate than almost anyone I've met (oh, and they are left-wing Democrats too).
Furthermore, there seems to be a strange contradiction here. On the one hand, there are complaints of the "less-than-minimum wage" compensation, and then on the other, a wish to remove all compensation at all. Not only will this rob people of the chance to have a child of their own genes (and only the most ridiculous liberal would claim that they don't have that right), but it would make it impossible to find surrogates. Additionally, the minimum wage complaint doesn't hold much water either. The compensation is not classified as income, and is not a wage. While you are always carrying the child, it is not as though you are punching a clock.
Should surrogacy be available to everyone? Yes, and it is! Does it suck that it is expensive? Sure. Many things are expensive, and unfortunately, that means that many people can't afford it. However, to demonize those that can, JUST BECAUSE THEY CAN, is a dubious, dubious exercise, and as I said, the kind of thing that makes otherwise normal people think of liberal ideology as a self-righteous, officious, meddlesome cult. We are better than that, and shouldn't fan the flames of that fire.
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» Good grief!
Posted by: kimbari
» RE: xploitation
Posted by: mythmorph
» Many sex workers also disagree that they are exploited
Posted by: jparsons
» RE: xploitation
Posted by: ladyoracle
» RE: Exploitation
Posted by: IowaGal
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Posted by: BlueTigress on Jul 25, 2009 9:21 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If I had wanted kids by now, I would have had them.
Interestingly, IVF is officially condemned by the Catholic Church. Basically, if God wanted you to have kids, you'd have 'em. If not, none.
For a lot of people, the urge to reproduce is strong. It's biology. But, yeah, I think if you don't want to go through the hassle, that's a huge clue in and of itself. If you can't, that should be a clue, too. Adopt or foster.
Or we change the insurance rules and IVF does not get covered any more. For anyone.
If the insurance companies won't help women not get pregnant, why should they help women get pregnant?
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» RE: How much would I pay?
Posted by: luzmejor
» Agreed
Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: How much would I pay?
Posted by: timenotonmyside
» RE: How much would I pay?
Posted by: IowaGal
Comments are closed-
Posted by: luzmejor on Jul 25, 2009 9:36 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As long as babies can be obtained without any personal grief except parting with some money or cells, we are still profiting from another version of slave labor.
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» RE: We need to put ourselves in others' shoes!
Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: We need to put ourselves in others' shoes!
Posted by: Phe
» a woman is not a machine
Posted by: Kati
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Jul 25, 2009 9:41 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Money now equals intelligence??
Posted by: EMB
» RE: Money now equals intelligence?? No
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Money now equals intelligence?? No
Posted by: Kati
» RE: Money now equals intelligence??
Posted by: DawnL
» RE: HARSH REALITY
Posted by: liamsmom
» RE: HARSH REALITY
Posted by: IowaGal
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Posted by: hanakwa on Jul 25, 2009 9:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Phe on Jul 25, 2009 9:46 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Reproductive rights do NOT end and begin with abortion. Just as those who could not bare children can now get surrogates those who should not can get abortions. There is so much choice nowadays that everyone only need to take the time to mind their own business and they will find happiness.
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» Ahhh yes...a totally ad hominem argument from the peanut gallery.
Posted by: Quist
» RE: Ahhh yes...I LOVE IT!!!!
Posted by: mythmorph
» You really are not that intelligent, honest, and aware Phe because suicide is not LEGAL.
Posted by: Quist
» RE: You really are not that intelligent, honest, and aware Phe because suicide is not LEGAL.
Posted by: Phe
» And just what gives YOU the right
Posted by: wireup
» RE: And just what gives YOU the right
Posted by: Phe
» And another rhetorical and dishonest question from Phe.
Posted by: Quist
» RE: And just what gives YOU the right? Food, water, pollution
Posted by: wireup
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Posted by: leafsong1 on Jul 25, 2009 10:03 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: It should be illegal
Posted by: Phe
» Your point is what Phe?
Posted by: Quist
» RE: Your point is what Phe?
Posted by: Phe
» In defense of Phe
Posted by: leafsong1
» What exactly was your topic then, so we are clear leafsong?
Posted by: Quist
» I now remember why you dislike me. It is because I have disagreed with you on veganism.
Posted by: Quist
» RE: It should be illegal
Posted by: mythmorph
» RE: It should be illegal
Posted by: Kati
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Posted by: sirios on Jul 25, 2009 10:36 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Creepy and arrogant not really
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Creepy and arrogant not really
Posted by: sirios
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Posted by: frantic1971 on Jul 25, 2009 11:35 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I believe we should tax movie-star earnings at 99%.
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» RE: millions of people with no health care--including kids
Posted by: mythmorph
» RE: millions of people with no health care--including kids
Posted by: Phe
» RE: millions of people with no health care--including kids
Posted by: Kati
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Posted by: vertical on Jul 25, 2009 12:22 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Changling on Jul 25, 2009 12:43 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We need to be paying people not to have kids and penalizing those who do reproduce.
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» RE: The selfish should be taxed. Adoption is better.
Posted by: Ruffy
» RE: The selfish should be taxed. Adoption is better.
Posted by: Longdream
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Posted by: raincascadia on Jul 25, 2009 3:05 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Adoption is the solution
Posted by: Ruffy
» Why were you forced?
Posted by: jennymac
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Posted by: Longdream on Jul 25, 2009 3:35 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you want to parent, jump right in and parent somebody. Please believe me, you will soon love that child more than you ever imagined. I've got a 16-year-old foster son, and I know. I can't adopt him, he's not free, but I would. And I'm his dad and he's my kid for our whole lives long.
Is it that white people have to have white babies? Open yourselves up! Little brown babies grow up just as smart and sweet and happy as little white babies when you love them and give them everything. They make the most fabulous nephews, and this I know for a fact.
So come off the babies, already. Let's go to babies when all the kids who are running around loose and in need have someone. Then we'll need more babies.
Open yourselves up.
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Posted by: wireup on Jul 25, 2009 3:39 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?
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Posted by: ginny on Jul 25, 2009 4:56 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I personally would like to see more people chose adoption, but that biological instinct to have one's own genetic children is very strong. I don't know what the answer is, maybe we just have to let people make their own choices. Maybe we need to give more tax breaks for adoption, and less incentives to chose costly options like surrogacy.
I personally
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» RE: Many reasons for surrogacy...
Posted by: Longdream
» I agree to a point
Posted by: jennymac
» RE: I agree to a point
Posted by: Longdream
» Let me get this straight...she already had one healthy child before choosing a surrogate?
Posted by: Quist
Comments are closed-
Posted by: talkville on Jul 25, 2009 6:54 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To enter into any kind of market whatsoever, the seller must own or prove a property right in the good or service exchange, and a willingness to exchange this good or service for money or value.
Merely because we abolished one particular historical form of slavery back in the 1860's and on does not imply that slavery as a social, political and economic relation was abolished.
We're in a world of hurt. Under these conditions, any conception of human justice is simply moot.
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Posted by: crysun2007 on Jul 25, 2009 8:38 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: artie on Jul 25, 2009 10:14 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
On the other hand, I feel that that there is something perverse in human beings intervening in the process of "reproduction." It seems disrespectful of nature - I think that Hollywood couple's decision suggest that life's biological processes need not be respected, that human's have some privileged right to tamper with them.
Rather than toying with the biosphere's processes, it seems that we should rather look into the environmental causes of infertility - such as the carcinogens and disrupters and neurotoxins that infect (American-made) personal care products, that Americans use virtually everyday of their lives for decades of their lives (that these decades of usage of such toxins bears no causal relationship to the increase in cancers, LDs, ADHD, Autisms, etc., is denied at our peril (the Europeans no better, as do many Japanese)....).
But is my position perverse? If nature decides "no" to our animal processes, we should listen to nature and not try to trump the decision with technological skills. This is very different from intervention in disease - disease is nature's aberration; infertility is not a disease - nor is pregnancy -) ....
But is this an odd position to have??
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Posted by: teddy on Jul 26, 2009 5:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Other than ego or vanity, there's no justification for it. A baby "from your own genetic material"? What can be more egotistical than that? What's so sacred about anyone's genetic material? I'm a firm believer in the wisdom of Mom Nature - if you are infertile, there's a really good hidden reason you should not override that condition.
Yes, there was a time when motherhood was part of a woman's identity - the reason for that is that so far (and I want it kept that way) only women can be mothers. But nowadays, in the West, motherhood is not the only aspect of a woman's identity. Conversely, motherhood does not elevate a woman to sainthood either, though many act as though it did.
If you're so convinced of your superior child-rearing abilities, then adopt; be altruistic yourself. Babies are not consumer commodities and mothers should not be reduced to the level of brood-animals on a farm, no matter how high the compensation. Anyway, it'll be the medical and legal pimps who get most of the money in that transaction - and they're usually male - there's your feminist issue.
And if all you can afford for a surrogate baby is $10,000, perhaps you should smarten up and not add another child to the ranks of the poor.
Certainly not nowadays, when it seems more judicious to reduce the population altogether.
Read "The Handmaid's Tale", by Margaret Atwood.
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» RE: Really...
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: eally...
Posted by: sureshot45
» RE: eally...
Posted by: teddy
» RE: eally...
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: eally...
Posted by: teddy
» RE: Really...
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: eally...
Posted by: teddy
» RE: Really...
Posted by: Longdream
» well-said
Posted by: goatini
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Phe on Jul 26, 2009 12:14 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The Irony
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: The Irony
Posted by: Phe
» RE: Frankly--
Posted by: Longdream
Comments are closed-
Posted by: wireup on Jul 26, 2009 3:39 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The problem is people who want to CREATE more children. We have more than enough children to go around for anyone who WANTS children. But to bring more children into the world - when there are already children waiting to be adopted - is criminal, as far as I'm concerned.
This idiotic need to reproduce one's self is crazy. If you want children, give a home to an unwanted child instead of reproducing yourself. What is the big deal with making a carbon copy of yourself? There are too many people in the world as it is. Don't add more!
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» RE: You are comparing apples and oranges here
Posted by: Phe
» There you go again Phe putting words in people's mouths.
Posted by: Quist
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ladyoracle on Jul 27, 2009 4:43 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do you get that metaphor? If everyone who wanted a surrogate baby could get one with minimal sacrifice, there'd be even more "too many" people in the world and less adoption happening. Not to mention less people just going childless and doing other altruistic things.
More importantly, the question should never be "shall we lower the price?" for a feminist. The question should be "are surrogate mothers being paid enough, provided adequate health care, and educated on their rights and obligations?" The surrogate mothers are the poor in this conversation who need protection.
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Posted by: KrisLea on Jul 27, 2009 7:07 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I personally think all of the infertility treatment and glorification of multiple births is a bit sick, but if I am a defender of choice, I must also respect others making a choice with which I don't agree.
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» CHOICE should come with responsibility though.
Posted by: Quist
» RE: CHOICE should come with responsibility though.
Posted by: Phe
» RE: CHOICE should come with responsibility though.
Posted by: KrisLea
» I know KrisLea...it surely is a catch 22.
Posted by: Quist
» RE: I know KrisLea...it surely is a catch 22.
Posted by: Kati
» RE: CHOICE should come with responsibility though.
Posted by: Kati
Comments are closed-
Posted by: doodahman on Jul 27, 2009 12:36 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's a feminist conundrum. On the one hand, why shouldn't surrogates be able to charge as much as they want for something they provide with their bodies? No one suggests that we limit the amount men can charge for lifting heavy planks of wood on a construction site, to name a ridiculous example. And I see almost nothing written about how men should sell their sperm for bargain-basement dollars to ensure even poor women can buy a vial.
Oh, har dee har har har. Yeah, that's why basic laborers get paid six figures, because no one puts a limit on it. Oh damn, that's rich, mighty rich.
As to the second example, I'll wager there is no commodity more easily picked up for a song than jism. I know of no instance where any woman, poor or otherwise, has been priced out of the semen market, assuming that she's willing to take it straight from the tap.
I mean, come on Alternet. Surely there must be other submissions that aren't as incredibly stupid as this one to publish.
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» RE: Another submission from Planet Clueless
Posted by: Longdream
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Posted by: Red State Gal on Jul 27, 2009 11:03 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Red State Gal
RedStateFeminists
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Posted by: sureshot45 on Jul 28, 2009 6:28 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
so..since your mother was 'entitled' to have a child..you can live the rest of your days bitching about other families desiring children?
or..you could make room..since you are of no greater value (probably more of a drain on resources) than an infant born today would be.
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Posted by: susanhathaway on Jul 28, 2009 7:42 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you go back and reread "The Handmaid's Tale," you will see that the "handmaids" of the title were not compensated AT ALL. They were slaves kept for breeding purposes. How providing more compensation directly to surrogate mothers would "resemble" that horrific fictional scenario is not quite clear, although in theory a backlash against all surrogate fees could conceivably (pun intended) lead to legislation to limit surrogates' rights via some "it's all about the babies" argument depicting surrogates as little more than incubators (as the ruling class in "The Handmaid's Tale" attempted to do).
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Posted by: itouch backup on Jul 30, 2009 7:37 PM
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Posted by: AdoptAuthor on Jul 30, 2009 7:51 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Surrogacy is NOT about labor such as cutting wood or shoveling coal. Surrogacy produced a human being who usually is clueless, while ignoring children who might benefit from adoption.
Nor is it similar to selling sperm as that does not involve risking major c-section surgery and even death.
Surrogacy is a indeed a serious conundrum for feminists and all woman as it exploits poverty and commodifies children.
Paid surrogacy is morally repugnant and that is why it is illegal in most of the world. In India, women are being used like prostitutes and soon such baby farms will be in central and south america, Africa and wherever there is poverty.
But...before long, the elite will just as easily clone themselves!
Mirah Riben, author, "The Stork Market: America's Multi-Billon Dollar Unregulated Adoption Industry"
http://www.AdvocatePublications.com
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Posted by: MEL810 on Jul 31, 2009 1:21 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The trouble is the people doing the surrogacy and treatment are people who are usually (although not always) affluent whites who want a perfect new white infant.
Older children, handicapped children, groups of siblings and children of mixed race stay stuck in state care.
If your true motive is the of love children and you have the desire to parent, having your own genetic infant is not as important.
The world is over-populated. Let's take care of children who are already here and need care rather than producing another child out of neurosis and vanity.
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Posted by: mramell50 on Jul 31, 2009 9:25 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I never did like that honker nosed bitch..now i hate her phony prettiness.. i think she looks like her face was shit out by a horse..
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Posted by: stellasolomons on Jul 25, 2009 12:56 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Propoganda website!
Posted by: ruehigeAngie
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Posted by: jparsons on Jul 25, 2009 1:10 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
as organs for sale. If someone is sick and has money,
and someone else is poor, the result is inevitable.
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Posted by: jamesryan87 on Jul 25, 2009 1:36 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: I'm FTM
Posted by: countingdaisies
» RE: I'm FTM
Posted by: Schnookums
» RE: I'm FTM
Posted by: countingdaisies
» RE: I'm FTM
Posted by: jamesryan87
» FTM
Posted by: kepstein7777
» RE: FTM
Posted by: Schnookums
» A lot of people know virtually nothing about transgender issues
Posted by: smadaj
» RE: A lot of people know virtually nothing about transgender issues
Posted by: jamesryan87
» RE: A lot of people know virtually nothing about transgender issues
Posted by: HillbillyRob
» RE: A lot of people know virtually nothing about transgender issues
Posted by: jamesryan87
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Posted by: kib on Jul 25, 2009 2:25 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: timenotonmyside on Jul 25, 2009 4:23 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Technology gives us million dollar babies every day that grow up with all kinds of special needs. Like the octuplut mom in the cash strapped state of California. Octuplut mom is unemployed and unmarried, and she has no way of raising her 14 children - all from in-vitro. But my, my how grand our medical technology is.
And you posters are probably the same ones bashing healthcare reform.
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Posted by: LeonBNJ on Jul 25, 2009 4:31 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Encourage Adoption - in theory, that sounds good, but...
Posted by: olderworker
» Not to mention that the adoption process itself is abusive
Posted by: begruntleed
» RE: Not to mention that the adoption process itself is abusive
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: ncourage Adoption
Posted by: Ruffy
» RE: ncourage Adoption
Posted by: HillbillyRob
» RE: ncourage Adoption
Posted by: HillbillyRob
» RE: ncourage Adoption
Posted by: FbO Vorcha
Comments are closed-
Posted by: blogfrog on Jul 25, 2009 5:49 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
-make your money
-marry well
-do the surrogate thing and keep your figure and busy "its "my" life" schedule
-pay off the surrogate slave at birth and bring the genetically engineered off spring home
-hand it off to the nanny and/or aux pere and get back to your important "its my life" schedule
Perfect
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Posted by: aadinko on Jul 25, 2009 5:58 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
RT
Ultimate Anonymity
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» RE-Not crazy, that is the reality
Posted by: Ellie1
» Alternet, how about getting rid of this con artist? You give "editor's choice" awards
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: Quist on Jul 25, 2009 6:17 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We need to slow procreation (especially the wealthy who consume huge amounts of resources and usually cause much more pollution)...not increase it with surrogate parenting and fertility drugs.
BTW, maybe nature is trying to tell us something. Just a thought.
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» RE: ...YES: and many just keep ignoring the reality of overpopulation.
Posted by: mythmorph
» RE: ...YES: and many just keep ignoring the reality of overpopulation.
Posted by: sureshot45
» Ahh great...someone pushing eugenics.
Posted by: Quist
» RE: ...YES: and many just keep ignoring the reality of overpopulation.
Posted by: HillbillyRob
» RE: ...YES: and many just keep ignoring the reality of overpopulation.
Posted by: sureshot45
» RE: ...YES: and many just keep ignoring the reality of overpopulation.
Posted by: IowaGal
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Ellie1 on Jul 25, 2009 6:54 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Why do these spoiled women think they are ENTITLED
Posted by: Phe
» RE: Why do these spoiled women think they are ENTITLED
Posted by: iatsebean
» RE: Why do these spoiled women think they are ENTITLED
Posted by: Phe
» It may be THEIR money and THEIR children...but it is OUR planet.
Posted by: Quist
» Repeating yourself does not make your argument anymore credible.
Posted by: Quist
» RE: Nice straw man Phe. I've heard this ridiculous argument many times before.
Posted by: Longdream
» Phe...and another fallacy. No one here is "fear mongering"!
Posted by: Quist
» RE: Nice straw man Phe. I've heard this ridiculous argument many times before.
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: It may be THEIR money and THEIR children...but it is OUR planet.
Posted by: mythmorph
» RE: Why do these spoiled women think they are ENTITLED
Posted by: Kati
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Yooperjo on Jul 25, 2009 7:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Shouldn't the cost of these surrogate arrangements include escrow accounts to help the 'products' deal with the psychological, physical, and emotional fallout they undoubtedly will face?
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» RE: What about the products?
Posted by: Phe
» RE: BRAVO Yooperjo
Posted by: mythmorph
» RE: What about the products?
Posted by: Pinorrow
» I think when a child is raised in a loving home, the problems you outline are manageable
Posted by: smadaj
» RE: I think when a child is raised in a loving home, the problems you outline are manageable
Posted by: HillbillyRob
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Megaera on Jul 25, 2009 8:18 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Some are wealthy. Some are not. Predictably, the wealthier people were those who hired surrogates. But, that also goes for the ones who had IVF treatments. IVF isn't cheap — financially or emotionally.
As a person who never had the biological imperative to reproduce, I can neither understand nor condemn those who do. I do believe that an unquenchable need to have one's own biological children — to the point of clinical depression or breaking the law — is a mental illness and should be treated. I have seen this illness in men and women. I have seen it destroy families. I have seen children already in this world suffer when her/his parent so desperately wants "just one more" biological child.
The exploitation of women for our wombs has gone on since the beginning of time. Canada's approach to surrogacy seems so much more enlightened and so much less open to abuse and exploitation than the U.S. model. Such an approach, coupled with making adoption more affordable, more flexible, and less mysterious a process, would go far to find parents for children who need families.
Finally, I have to come clean and admit that I would have adopted children had my partner been willing. But he maintained that far-too-often-held belief that "you never know what you're going to get" with adopted children. It's worth noting that he springs from blue-blood stock that came over on the Mayflower. He and his parents are very keen about their "lineage" and "ancestry". I, on the other hand, am of mixed-ancestry and mixed-race. All of my people, as far as I know, were peasants from Ireland, France, Portugal, and aboriginal Canada. I had nothing to do with the biological choices that were made that led to my birth. To feel proud of my "lineage" seems ridiculous and arrogant to me, especially when I know so much pride-of-lineage is born of racism and bigotry. Even my partner's blue-blood mother calls my Irish ancestry "dirty".
In this time of dwindling resources and uncertainty, the world doesn't need another Me. But it does need more people willing to parent a child, wherever they find her.
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» Canada's approach to surrogacy..
Posted by: Phe
» RE: Canada's approach to surrogacy..
Posted by: Megaera
» RE: Canada's approach to surrogacy..
Posted by: Phe
» RE: Canada's approach to surrogacy..
Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: The world doesn't need any more families like your boyfriend's.
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: The world doesn't need another Me.
Posted by: Kati
» I agree with you, but good heavens, where do you live!
Posted by: smadaj
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Callibrarian on Jul 25, 2009 8:58 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My feelings exactly.
Let's get something straight---infertile women are not doing surrogate mothers such a great favor that they should feel so blessed with carring someone else's child that they should do it at bargain basement prices. At first I thought this article was going to be about fairness and outlifting people out of poverty, etc. Instead it's saying we should all be able to use the services of a poor women. Instead of Sarah Jessica Parker paying someone a gazillion dollars to have twins, we should be able to pay 10% of our McDonald's salary and get our own sets, too.
WTF?
How about this for an article: people are not entitled to a newborn of their own DNA. None of this surface talk about adoption, which for straight married couples is all to often code for taking home a newborn which you could pass off as your own. We're not enitiled, and therefore if it doesn't happen naturally, we can't boo hoo over the costs, the surrogate being the least of it.
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Posted by: quigonpaj on Jul 25, 2009 9:17 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Also, while adoption is a noble endeavor, how can you begrudge a person who wants to have their own genetic children? Both of the couples for whom my wife has carried children had multiple miscarriages and life-threatening ectopic pregnancies. They were absolutely NOT the silver-spoon, country-club, starlet, aristocratic types being portrayed in this article or in these posts. And, contrary to what some have suggested, she was not considered a "slave" at all. Quite the opposite. She was showered with affection, gifts, and appreciation. We still get pictures and have visited the kids on occassion. And the "rich folks" who paid for the procedure were nicer and more compassionate than almost anyone I've met (oh, and they are left-wing Democrats too).
Furthermore, there seems to be a strange contradiction here. On the one hand, there are complaints of the "less-than-minimum wage" compensation, and then on the other, a wish to remove all compensation at all. Not only will this rob people of the chance to have a child of their own genes (and only the most ridiculous liberal would claim that they don't have that right), but it would make it impossible to find surrogates. Additionally, the minimum wage complaint doesn't hold much water either. The compensation is not classified as income, and is not a wage. While you are always carrying the child, it is not as though you are punching a clock.
Should surrogacy be available to everyone? Yes, and it is! Does it suck that it is expensive? Sure. Many things are expensive, and unfortunately, that means that many people can't afford it. However, to demonize those that can, JUST BECAUSE THEY CAN, is a dubious, dubious exercise, and as I said, the kind of thing that makes otherwise normal people think of liberal ideology as a self-righteous, officious, meddlesome cult. We are better than that, and shouldn't fan the flames of that fire.
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» Good grief!
Posted by: kimbari
» RE: xploitation
Posted by: mythmorph
» Many sex workers also disagree that they are exploited
Posted by: jparsons
» RE: xploitation
Posted by: ladyoracle
» RE: Exploitation
Posted by: IowaGal
Comments are closed-
Posted by: BlueTigress on Jul 25, 2009 9:21 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If I had wanted kids by now, I would have had them.
Interestingly, IVF is officially condemned by the Catholic Church. Basically, if God wanted you to have kids, you'd have 'em. If not, none.
For a lot of people, the urge to reproduce is strong. It's biology. But, yeah, I think if you don't want to go through the hassle, that's a huge clue in and of itself. If you can't, that should be a clue, too. Adopt or foster.
Or we change the insurance rules and IVF does not get covered any more. For anyone.
If the insurance companies won't help women not get pregnant, why should they help women get pregnant?
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» RE: How much would I pay?
Posted by: luzmejor
» Agreed
Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: How much would I pay?
Posted by: timenotonmyside
» RE: How much would I pay?
Posted by: IowaGal
Comments are closed-
Posted by: luzmejor on Jul 25, 2009 9:36 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As long as babies can be obtained without any personal grief except parting with some money or cells, we are still profiting from another version of slave labor.
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» RE: We need to put ourselves in others' shoes!
Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: We need to put ourselves in others' shoes!
Posted by: Phe
» a woman is not a machine
Posted by: Kati
Comments are closed-
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Jul 25, 2009 9:41 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Money now equals intelligence??
Posted by: EMB
» RE: Money now equals intelligence?? No
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Money now equals intelligence?? No
Posted by: Kati
» RE: Money now equals intelligence??
Posted by: DawnL
» RE: HARSH REALITY
Posted by: liamsmom
» RE: HARSH REALITY
Posted by: IowaGal
Comments are closed-
Posted by: hanakwa on Jul 25, 2009 9:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Phe on Jul 25, 2009 9:46 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Reproductive rights do NOT end and begin with abortion. Just as those who could not bare children can now get surrogates those who should not can get abortions. There is so much choice nowadays that everyone only need to take the time to mind their own business and they will find happiness.
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» Ahhh yes...a totally ad hominem argument from the peanut gallery.
Posted by: Quist
» RE: Ahhh yes...I LOVE IT!!!!
Posted by: mythmorph
» You really are not that intelligent, honest, and aware Phe because suicide is not LEGAL.
Posted by: Quist
» RE: You really are not that intelligent, honest, and aware Phe because suicide is not LEGAL.
Posted by: Phe
» And just what gives YOU the right
Posted by: wireup
» RE: And just what gives YOU the right
Posted by: Phe
» And another rhetorical and dishonest question from Phe.
Posted by: Quist
» RE: And just what gives YOU the right? Food, water, pollution
Posted by: wireup
Comments are closed-
Posted by: leafsong1 on Jul 25, 2009 10:03 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: It should be illegal
Posted by: Phe
» Your point is what Phe?
Posted by: Quist
» RE: Your point is what Phe?
Posted by: Phe
» In defense of Phe
Posted by: leafsong1
» What exactly was your topic then, so we are clear leafsong?
Posted by: Quist
» I now remember why you dislike me. It is because I have disagreed with you on veganism.
Posted by: Quist
» RE: It should be illegal
Posted by: mythmorph
» RE: It should be illegal
Posted by: Kati
Comments are closed-
Posted by: sirios on Jul 25, 2009 10:36 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Creepy and arrogant not really
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Creepy and arrogant not really
Posted by: sirios
Comments are closed-
Posted by: frantic1971 on Jul 25, 2009 11:35 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I believe we should tax movie-star earnings at 99%.
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» RE: millions of people with no health care--including kids
Posted by: mythmorph
» RE: millions of people with no health care--including kids
Posted by: Phe
» RE: millions of people with no health care--including kids
Posted by: Kati
Comments are closed-
Posted by: vertical on Jul 25, 2009 12:22 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Changling on Jul 25, 2009 12:43 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We need to be paying people not to have kids and penalizing those who do reproduce.
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» RE: The selfish should be taxed. Adoption is better.
Posted by: Ruffy
» RE: The selfish should be taxed. Adoption is better.
Posted by: Longdream
Comments are closed-
Posted by: raincascadia on Jul 25, 2009 3:05 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Adoption is the solution
Posted by: Ruffy
» Why were you forced?
Posted by: jennymac
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Longdream on Jul 25, 2009 3:35 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you want to parent, jump right in and parent somebody. Please believe me, you will soon love that child more than you ever imagined. I've got a 16-year-old foster son, and I know. I can't adopt him, he's not free, but I would. And I'm his dad and he's my kid for our whole lives long.
Is it that white people have to have white babies? Open yourselves up! Little brown babies grow up just as smart and sweet and happy as little white babies when you love them and give them everything. They make the most fabulous nephews, and this I know for a fact.
So come off the babies, already. Let's go to babies when all the kids who are running around loose and in need have someone. Then we'll need more babies.
Open yourselves up.
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Posted by: wireup on Jul 25, 2009 3:39 PM
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WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?
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Posted by: ginny on Jul 25, 2009 4:56 PM
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I personally would like to see more people chose adoption, but that biological instinct to have one's own genetic children is very strong. I don't know what the answer is, maybe we just have to let people make their own choices. Maybe we need to give more tax breaks for adoption, and less incentives to chose costly options like surrogacy.
I personally
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» RE: Many reasons for surrogacy...
Posted by: Longdream
» I agree to a point
Posted by: jennymac
» RE: I agree to a point
Posted by: Longdream
» Let me get this straight...she already had one healthy child before choosing a surrogate?
Posted by: Quist
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Posted by: talkville on Jul 25, 2009 6:54 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To enter into any kind of market whatsoever, the seller must own or prove a property right in the good or service exchange, and a willingness to exchange this good or service for money or value.
Merely because we abolished one particular historical form of slavery back in the 1860's and on does not imply that slavery as a social, political and economic relation was abolished.
We're in a world of hurt. Under these conditions, any conception of human justice is simply moot.
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Posted by: crysun2007 on Jul 25, 2009 8:38 PM
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Posted by: artie on Jul 25, 2009 10:14 PM
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On the other hand, I feel that that there is something perverse in human beings intervening in the process of "reproduction." It seems disrespectful of nature - I think that Hollywood couple's decision suggest that life's biological processes need not be respected, that human's have some privileged right to tamper with them.
Rather than toying with the biosphere's processes, it seems that we should rather look into the environmental causes of infertility - such as the carcinogens and disrupters and neurotoxins that infect (American-made) personal care products, that Americans use virtually everyday of their lives for decades of their lives (that these decades of usage of such toxins bears no causal relationship to the increase in cancers, LDs, ADHD, Autisms, etc., is denied at our peril (the Europeans no better, as do many Japanese)....).
But is my position perverse? If nature decides "no" to our animal processes, we should listen to nature and not try to trump the decision with technological skills. This is very different from intervention in disease - disease is nature's aberration; infertility is not a disease - nor is pregnancy -) ....
But is this an odd position to have??
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Posted by: teddy on Jul 26, 2009 5:04 AM
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Other than ego or vanity, there's no justification for it. A baby "from your own genetic material"? What can be more egotistical than that? What's so sacred about anyone's genetic material? I'm a firm believer in the wisdom of Mom Nature - if you are infertile, there's a really good hidden reason you should not override that condition.
Yes, there was a time when motherhood was part of a woman's identity - the reason for that is that so far (and I want it kept that way) only women can be mothers. But nowadays, in the West, motherhood is not the only aspect of a woman's identity. Conversely, motherhood does not elevate a woman to sainthood either, though many act as though it did.
If you're so convinced of your superior child-rearing abilities, then adopt; be altruistic yourself. Babies are not consumer commodities and mothers should not be reduced to the level of brood-animals on a farm, no matter how high the compensation. Anyway, it'll be the medical and legal pimps who get most of the money in that transaction - and they're usually male - there's your feminist issue.
And if all you can afford for a surrogate baby is $10,000, perhaps you should smarten up and not add another child to the ranks of the poor.
Certainly not nowadays, when it seems more judicious to reduce the population altogether.
Read "The Handmaid's Tale", by Margaret Atwood.
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» RE: Really...
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: eally...
Posted by: sureshot45
» RE: eally...
Posted by: teddy
» RE: eally...
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: eally...
Posted by: teddy
» RE: Really...
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: eally...
Posted by: teddy
» RE: Really...
Posted by: Longdream
» well-said
Posted by: goatini
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Posted by: Phe on Jul 26, 2009 12:14 PM
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» RE: The Irony
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: The Irony
Posted by: Phe
» RE: Frankly--
Posted by: Longdream
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Posted by: wireup on Jul 26, 2009 3:39 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The problem is people who want to CREATE more children. We have more than enough children to go around for anyone who WANTS children. But to bring more children into the world - when there are already children waiting to be adopted - is criminal, as far as I'm concerned.
This idiotic need to reproduce one's self is crazy. If you want children, give a home to an unwanted child instead of reproducing yourself. What is the big deal with making a carbon copy of yourself? There are too many people in the world as it is. Don't add more!
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» RE: You are comparing apples and oranges here
Posted by: Phe
» There you go again Phe putting words in people's mouths.
Posted by: Quist
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Posted by: ladyoracle on Jul 27, 2009 4:43 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do you get that metaphor? If everyone who wanted a surrogate baby could get one with minimal sacrifice, there'd be even more "too many" people in the world and less adoption happening. Not to mention less people just going childless and doing other altruistic things.
More importantly, the question should never be "shall we lower the price?" for a feminist. The question should be "are surrogate mothers being paid enough, provided adequate health care, and educated on their rights and obligations?" The surrogate mothers are the poor in this conversation who need protection.
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Posted by: KrisLea on Jul 27, 2009 7:07 AM
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I personally think all of the infertility treatment and glorification of multiple births is a bit sick, but if I am a defender of choice, I must also respect others making a choice with which I don't agree.
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» CHOICE should come with responsibility though.
Posted by: Quist
» RE: CHOICE should come with responsibility though.
Posted by: Phe
» RE: CHOICE should come with responsibility though.
Posted by: KrisLea
» I know KrisLea...it surely is a catch 22.
Posted by: Quist
» RE: I know KrisLea...it surely is a catch 22.
Posted by: Kati
» RE: CHOICE should come with responsibility though.
Posted by: Kati
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Posted by: doodahman on Jul 27, 2009 12:36 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's a feminist conundrum. On the one hand, why shouldn't surrogates be able to charge as much as they want for something they provide with their bodies? No one suggests that we limit the amount men can charge for lifting heavy planks of wood on a construction site, to name a ridiculous example. And I see almost nothing written about how men should sell their sperm for bargain-basement dollars to ensure even poor women can buy a vial.
Oh, har dee har har har. Yeah, that's why basic laborers get paid six figures, because no one puts a limit on it. Oh damn, that's rich, mighty rich.
As to the second example, I'll wager there is no commodity more easily picked up for a song than jism. I know of no instance where any woman, poor or otherwise, has been priced out of the semen market, assuming that she's willing to take it straight from the tap.
I mean, come on Alternet. Surely there must be other submissions that aren't as incredibly stupid as this one to publish.
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» RE: Another submission from Planet Clueless
Posted by: Longdream
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Posted by: Red State Gal on Jul 27, 2009 11:03 PM
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Red State Gal
RedStateFeminists
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Posted by: sureshot45 on Jul 28, 2009 6:28 AM
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so..since your mother was 'entitled' to have a child..you can live the rest of your days bitching about other families desiring children?
or..you could make room..since you are of no greater value (probably more of a drain on resources) than an infant born today would be.
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Posted by: susanhathaway on Jul 28, 2009 7:42 AM
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If you go back and reread "The Handmaid's Tale," you will see that the "handmaids" of the title were not compensated AT ALL. They were slaves kept for breeding purposes. How providing more compensation directly to surrogate mothers would "resemble" that horrific fictional scenario is not quite clear, although in theory a backlash against all surrogate fees could conceivably (pun intended) lead to legislation to limit surrogates' rights via some "it's all about the babies" argument depicting surrogates as little more than incubators (as the ruling class in "The Handmaid's Tale" attempted to do).
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Posted by: itouch backup on Jul 30, 2009 7:37 PM
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Posted by: AdoptAuthor on Jul 30, 2009 7:51 PM
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Surrogacy is NOT about labor such as cutting wood or shoveling coal. Surrogacy produced a human being who usually is clueless, while ignoring children who might benefit from adoption.
Nor is it similar to selling sperm as that does not involve risking major c-section surgery and even death.
Surrogacy is a indeed a serious conundrum for feminists and all woman as it exploits poverty and commodifies children.
Paid surrogacy is morally repugnant and that is why it is illegal in most of the world. In India, women are being used like prostitutes and soon such baby farms will be in central and south america, Africa and wherever there is poverty.
But...before long, the elite will just as easily clone themselves!
Mirah Riben, author, "The Stork Market: America's Multi-Billon Dollar Unregulated Adoption Industry"
http://www.AdvocatePublications.com
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Posted by: MEL810 on Jul 31, 2009 1:21 PM
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The trouble is the people doing the surrogacy and treatment are people who are usually (although not always) affluent whites who want a perfect new white infant.
Older children, handicapped children, groups of siblings and children of mixed race stay stuck in state care.
If your true motive is the of love children and you have the desire to parent, having your own genetic infant is not as important.
The world is over-populated. Let's take care of children who are already here and need care rather than producing another child out of neurosis and vanity.
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Posted by: mramell50 on Jul 31, 2009 9:25 PM
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I never did like that honker nosed bitch..now i hate her phony prettiness.. i think she looks like her face was shit out by a horse..
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