comments_imageCOMMENTS: 79

Our Economy Needs at Least $2 Trillion in Stimulus Spending Right Now -- Tens of Millions of Jobs Are at Stake

Politicians and pundits in Washington are either too ignorant, dishonest, or scared to talk about the expenditures that this economy needs.
July 16, 2009  |  
 
 
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When her husband was in the oval office Laura Bush launched an initiative to promote literacy across the country. Unfortunately, there was no comparable effort to promote numeracy in our nation's capital. This has been evident in the discussion of the stimulus among politicians and commentators in the week since the June job numbers were released.

Republicans were anxious to pronounce the stimulus a failure, while Democrats insisted that the package just needed more time, pointing out that most of the money had not yet been spent. Neither assertion can withstand the test of third grade arithmetic.

The basic story is that the stimulus was too small, pure and simple. It would have been too small even if the Obama's administration's projections for the severity of the recession had proven accurate. However, since the downturn is considerably steeper than they had projected, the inadequacy of the stimulus is even greater.

Here are the numbers. The unemployment rate is currently 9.5 percent and virtually certain to cross 10.0 percent by the end of the summer. It is likely to hit 11.0 percent early next year, but we'll just work off the 10.0 percent figure.

The target for unemployment should be no higher than 5.0 percent. (The year-round average for unemployment in 2000 was 4.0 percent.) This leaves a gap between actual unemployment and our employment target of 5 percentage points. As a rule of thumb, it takes a 2 percentage points increase in GDP to reduce the unemployment rate by 1 percentage point. This means that in order to reach our target of 5 percent unemployment, we would have to increase GDP by 10 percent, or $1.5 trillion.

Different types of stimulus have different multiplier effects. One dollar of addition spending is generally estimated to have a multiplier effect in the neighborhood of 1.5, meaning that for every dollar we spend on a government project, we increase GDP by $1.50 as the people we hire go out and spend their paychecks, creating new demand.

The multiplier effect on tax cuts is generally estimated as being in the neighborhood of 0.9, or less. This means that $1 of tax cuts will end up increasing GDP by about 90 cents. Unlike spending on things like road construction or health care, a tax cut does not directly generate demand. It only generates demand when people go out and spend their tax cuts. Since much of any tax cut will be saved, the stimulus effect of tax cuts is almost always less than the effect of direct spending.

Okay, if we have an annual GDP shortfall of $1.5 trillion and we decided to fill it by spending, then we would need approximately $1 trillion per year of additional spending. Alternatively, if we tried to fill the gap with tax cuts, we would need $1.65 trillion per year in tax cuts. After pulling out spending for later years, and the alternative minimum tax fix, the Obama package provides about $300 billion a year in stimulus. This is obviously inadequate.

When the Republicans jump on the June jobs numbers and say that stimulus doesn't work, it is like the obese person complaining that dieting and exercise don't work because he is still overweight after passing up dessert and taking a walk around the block. There is a question of magnitude here that they seem to have missed.

The "give it time" crew don't fare too much better. While only about 15 percent of the stimulus has gone out the door thus far, it is the rate of spending that matters.

To put this point simply, suppose that we would spend the $600 billion 2-year stimulus at the rate of $25 billion a month. Assume that we have ramped up to this spending rate, so that by May we have reached the $25 billion rate of monthly spending. While it may be true that at the end of June that we have only spent 15 percent of the stimulus, the rate of spending will not be increasing substantially from current levels. This means that whatever boost to monthly consumption and output we expect from the stimulus, we are now currently seeing. This boost will continue through 2010, but we will not get an additional boost from the stimulus further down the road.

The actual story of stimulus spending is somewhat more complicated, but this simple story captures the basic picture. The additional boost from new projects that are yet to be started will not make a big dent in the economic picture.

In short, we badly need another very big dose of stimulus. Unfortunately, the politicians and pundits in Washington are either too ignorant, dishonest, or scared to talk about the $2 plus trillion stimulus that this economy needs. As a result, tens of millions of people will lose their jobs and/or their homes because of continued economic mismanagement. In economic policy circles, mismanagement is a job qualification, not a fault.


Dean Baker is the co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy Research (CEPR). He is the author of Plunder and Blunder: The Rise and Fall of the Bubble Economy.
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Comments are closed-

Repugnant Bolshevik nonsense!
Posted by: JimmyChang on Jul 16, 2009 12:56 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
More spending is not the answer! All this credit-card economics is doing is delaying the obvious: eventually, China will stop lending us money when it becomes obvious that there is no mathematical possibility of us ever paying them back. And then we're all in for a world of hurt that will make this recession seem like the rosy "gold ol' days."

We need to slash spending by any means necessary. It will cause severe pain at first, but that will only be temporary. Eventually, the economy will evolve into a new shape, new industries will create new jobs, and life will go on. Borrowing trillions more now is just a painkiller, but it doesn't cure the disease.

Your statistics are nonsense. Spending a dollar adds $1.50 to the economy? Cutting a taxdollar only adds 90 cents to the economy? What government study pulled those numbers out of thin air? If more taxes and more spending boosts the economy, why stop at $2 trillion? Why not borrow ten trillion, a hundred trillion? If more government spending will save the economy, why not go full Soviet and make every job a government job? And let's raise the minimum wage to $1000/hour so we can all be millionaires by next Christmas! Let's balance the budget by raising taxes! Worked great in California!

This has absolutely nothing to do with saving jobs or boosting the economy. This is just another excuse to spend spend spend, which justifies tax tax tax. More money for the government means more power in the hands of government, and that means more corruption. Look at Obama, Kennedy, or Bill Clinton. Have any of them ever had a REAL job? Of course not, why work for a living when you can suck the blood of taxpayers and call it public service?

If any cares about saving jobs, they might suggest any of the following:

-cut income taxes and capital gains taxes

-lower of eliminate the minimum wage

-deregulate and let small-businesses work

-deport job-stealing illegal aliens

-forget about cap-and-tax-and-outsourse-jobs

But this isn't about saving jobs. This is about enlarging an already bloated federal government. November 2010 can't come fast enough!

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» Get a job! Posted by: JimmyChang
» RE: Get a job! Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: You're right about SMALL business... Posted by: progressiveview
» RE: epugnant Bolshevik nonsense! Posted by: blondesprite
» Cut military spending by 50% Posted by: tommy_slothrop
» RE: The realest part of your post! Posted by: premarachel
» RE: repugnant Republican nonsense! Posted by: peterjkraus

Comments are closed-

Tom
Posted by: tkd82arty@netscape.net on Jul 16, 2009 1:21 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Eliminate the federal government, eliminate the federal deficit. Why is this hard to understand?

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2 Triilion ? ... How About Single Payer Right Now ?
Posted by: mmckinl on Jul 16, 2009 1:23 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Two trillion dollars would be more than enough to pay for single payer health care for all and then some ...

This freshly injected cash would help business, state and local governments, the under and uninsured while giving a huge boost to consumer confidence ...

As single payer is implemented the cost of health insurance can be reduced through lower administrative costs, elimination of profit and advertising that health insurance companies need.

Over time standardization of billing, records, diagnosis and treatment will reduce costs even further ... The trick are the start up costs for implementing information systems and data gathering to discover best practice for all that ails us ...

I've only been saying all this for a year ... The chances for all this being implemented :0.5%.

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» RE: What would you do with $2 trillion? Posted by: JenniferBedingfield
» Great plan, comrade! Posted by: JimmyChang
» RE: Great plan, comrade! Posted by: JenniferBedingfield

Comments are closed-

Get Real
Posted by: BeckyD on Jul 16, 2009 3:50 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When the current stimulus was being debated, President Obama said it would save and create jobs, hold the line on unemployment. Well, unemployment is now at what? 9.5%? Yeah. That worked real well.

And now you propose doing the same thing, only with $2 trillion instead of 'just' $700 billion? One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results. Stimulus 1 (under Bush) didn't work. Stimulus 2 didn't work. Why are we even considering Stimulus 3?

We don't HAVE $2 trillion. Where do you propose to get it? Print it? Basic Econ 101 and a quick lesson in history will show you where that leads. Borrow it? From what I read, foreign governments are already nervous about our level of debt, and I for one do not intend to allow this government to saddle my children and grandchildren with mounds of debt, to enslave them to China and India, as long as I have breath in my body.

So no, Mr. Baker. We don't need a whopping 2 trill in stimulus. We need sensible, reality-based policies designed to free the private economy to work. We need to spend our own money, or better, save and invest it, not have government do it for us. And most of all we need to end our personal and governmental reliance on credit.

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» Get Real? Posted by: JimmyChang
» RE: Get Real - I agree. Posted by: JenniferBedingfield
» RE: Get Real Posted by: sevengen
» RE: Get Real Posted by: yellow

Comments are closed-

Our Childrens Future
Posted by: CTC123 on Jul 16, 2009 4:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Consider the Connection to:
Wise-use
It's not how much we spend,It,s how much we save.
In the future survival will depend on a GREEN
economy, "meaning conservation", the wise-use,
of the Earths natural resources, including the
responsible 'wise-use' of our childrens money.
Please Search:
CTC123GREEN

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All foreplay, no sex?
Posted by: folkie on Jul 16, 2009 5:11 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No matter how much stimulation and titillation we get, we're still gonna get screwed.

A couple of trillion bucks to pay down our debt to China would be like making an extra mortgage payment--it would help, but only over the long term.

A couple of trillion bucks to corporations and individuals would, at best, create more jobs in China and allow people to buy more Chinese goods.

A few million diverted from the military-industrial complex, the prison-industrial complex, and the health-industrial complex, and invested in green jobs, would reduce unemployment.

What we have in this country is mob rule, if you define "mob" as an organized criminal syndicate like a multinational corporation. Giving more money to the mob isn't going to benefit anyone except the mobsters.

Low income seniors and the disabled on SSI in California got a $250 stimulus from Obama. At the same time, he cut funding to the states, so California's governor cut SSI benefits, resulting in a net $400 loss in income for each SSI beneficiary for the year. What kind of fool would rush out and spend their "stimulus?"

Banksters, on the other hand, got a huge stimulus and they rushed out to spend it on bonuses and yacht parties. There was no appreciable trickle-down to the public. Loans remained hard to get, mortgages hard to refinance, and interest rates and fees went up.

A decision to tax the rich to finance health care is laughable. The administration decided not to push Swiss banks to reveal the names of Americans with secret bank accounts, so we don't even know who the wealthy tax evaders are and we certainly have no way to tax them. Remember the spate of billionaires renouncing their U.S. citizenship so as not to pay taxes? When they were outsourcing our jobs, they knew full well they were destroying our economy, and they made sure that they couldn't be held accountable.

How does an undocumented immigrant here take away a job that has been outsourced to China, Burma, India, Mexico, the Phillipines, etc.? If immigrants really wanted to take our jobs, they'd stay home because that's where our jobs went.

You can stimulate a dead horse all you want, but it isn't going to get up.

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Not Another DIME
Posted by: Ohjin on Jul 16, 2009 5:39 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ours is a dead and corrupt system that needs to be put out its misery... not eternally resuscitated.

NOT ANOTHER DIME!

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Fantasy Land
Posted by: snowhound on Jul 16, 2009 5:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Soon to be a living hell...

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A long way from being correct
Posted by: awilson5280 on Jul 16, 2009 6:05 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article is very short-sighted. The United States is on the verge of a credit downgrade because of its staggering federal debt. Piling another $2,000,000,000,000 on top is not the answer.

Setting aside the practical problems (which we know are coming) with hyperinflation that result from the government printing more dollars, we are back to the concept of moral hazard. However, in this case the hazard is not limited to jerks on Wall Street, but to our whole society. What is the point in saving if our government is going to bail us out until our nation collapses?

Anyway, the real problem is population. Economics tries to operate in a rational vacuum, but the truth is that we evolved from animals and remain animals, bound by a competition for resources. The United States is starting to get crowded enough that it is no longer the land of opportunity that it once was. Our material development has gone far enough that our competition for resources cannot be resolved by the willingness to move west and kill some natives. While we do not yet face the problems of China, India, or Bangladesh, we are starting to see the results of the delusion that we can grow our population without facing serious environmental and economic consequences.

Unfortunately, it is politically radioactive to tell one's constituents that it may be bad for both them and society for them to reproduce. Ah, the paradox of life - often, the things that need to be said the most cannot be said.

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"Our Economy Needs at Least $2 Trillion.."
Posted by: xvictor on Jul 16, 2009 6:09 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
End the Iraq/Afghan debacle and unilaterally withdraw our troops. That should save about a trillion dollars in a pinch.

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» AMEN ! Posted by: mtnprivy

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Fiscal Reality
Posted by: kad on Jul 16, 2009 6:17 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It may come as quite a shock to many, but the profligate spending in D.C. needs to end. There needs to be across the board spending cuts in all areas including defense and social programs if this great experiment of a republic is to survive another century. Credit card economics is dead for for the individual consumption unit, and for the government which it enabled. Living a simple, frugal, existence is the only way forward.

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rgd
Posted by: rgd on Jul 16, 2009 6:19 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hitler did the same thing in Germany before the war which was print money and spend on public works projects. Hitler was no saint and deserves the condemnation he recieved, however, He cared more for the Germany people than Obama cares for us.

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Both parties are corrupt
Posted by: warrior woman on Jul 16, 2009 6:38 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Looks like a lot of Republicans are out today expressing opinions.

Stimulus worked during the Depression, however, the application of the stimulus to date has not been similar to what it had been in the 1930's.

Stimulus 1 or TARP was a giveaway to the financial industry essentially to fund the house since they had run this enormous Ponzi scheme. That original 700 billion plus the trillions "lent" or printed by the Fed have not created more loans or eased credit (that is allowed for traditional money creation) nor has unemployment eased in any way. TARP was a sham to coverup the wrong doing of the banks.

Now, Stimulus 2, as Baker states is slow out of the gate and hasn't done enough to jump start the economy. I'm not sure that we expected the economy to ramp up after 3-4 months of the money starting to go into the system, did we? The "media" thought 2010 or so, not July of 2009. Obama said it would get worse before it got better.

While we can call for more stimulus, we do have to reckon that we have added trillions and trillions of dollars of more debt to future generations.

We haven't seen Congress enact or re-enact any financial regulation and they won't. They could easily re-enact Glass Stegall and separate the finance, insurance and banking industries but the WON'T. They could have the votes but they won't. Because they're bought. And therein lies the crux of the matter. All we hear are excuses of why they can't do this or that. People are waking up to understand that Congress and most all of elected officials in the Federal govt are corrupt. They are bought and paid for by industry and we the people are screwed at every turn.

Let me give some examples: 1) on a state basis, who pays 95% of the taxes? Individuals. 2) from an environmental perspective, who uses the least amount of energy and other resources such as water (10%)? Individuals. 3) List of Democratic Senators not supporting Public Health Option and the amount of bribes they took at:
http://vote.wewantthepublicoption.com/p-e-launch-link-S 4) The Future Is Deflation By Mike Whitney http://informationclearinghouse.info/article23039.htm

"Household wealth has dipped $14 trillion since the crisis began. Wages are slowly retreating and unemployment is at 9.5% a 25 year high. Also, the percentage of home equity has fallen below 50% for the first time on record."
5) The New Energy Bill May Create a 'Super Lobby' of Powerful Opposition
By Teryn Norris, AlterNet
Posted on July 8, 2009, Printed on July 14, 2009 http://www.alternet.org/politics/141132/the_new
_energy_bill_may_create_a_%27super
_lobby%27_of_powerful_opposition/ This one is very important, more trickery from the thugs on global climate change when in fact, Goldman will be the big winner! The Great American Bubble Machine
Matt Taibbi on how Goldman Sachs has engineered every major market manipulation since the Great Depression
MATT TAIBBI HTTP://WWW.ROLLINGSTONE.COM/POLITICS/
STORY/
28816321/THE_GREAT_AMERICAN_
BUBBLE_MACHINE
"the new game in town, the next bubble, is in carbon credits — a booming trillion- dollar market that barely even exists yet, but will if the Democratic Party that it gave $4,452,585 to in the last election manages to push into existence a groundbreaking new commodities bubble, disguised as an "environmental plan," called cap-and-trade."

That's why WE, the people are not up to more stiumulus, we've been taken to the cleaners too many times. No one trusts the govt to take care of US any longer.

Of course, the same is said of Republicans. They have industries divied up and they "take turns" defending or denigrating depending upon the topic, all the while, taking massive donations to keep up the show.

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» RE: Both parties are corrupt Posted by: monkeywrench

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The 1.5 multiplier effect of stimulus money is meaningless ...
Posted by: monkeywrench on Jul 16, 2009 7:09 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... because the current stimulus money has been given to Wall Street pirates, not spent on Main Street projects. The multiplier effect of handing money to the same crooks who have already stolen trillions is a deeply negative figure.

Will Main Street see much of another stimulus? I doubt it. We don't count – and Washington can't count.

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The new trickle down
Posted by: james108 on Jul 16, 2009 8:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So the new trickle down is to give billionaires billions, and bribe the people with a few million of their own money, borrowed at a high interest rate?

I don't think we can trust them to do another stimulus. So much of it was funneled to Goldman Sachs and his other backers how can we trust him to write another check of borrowed money we'll have to pay back at high interest to the Fed as well as shooting up inflation?

I hate when they paint it that the stimulus wasn't enough, and don't even broach the idea that it was done wrong, and not in the people's interests. We propped up Goldman debtors and let their competition go out of business why?

Really though, any serious discussion of what we need to do to fix the economy has to address the war hemorrhage. How many trillions have we spent to ensure multinational corporations have control of the world's oil? How many troops do we have stationed across the globe and how much does that cost? Maybe that's why the reality of the situation can't be discussed.

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» RE: The new trickle down Posted by: bichomau
» It's not a real vote though Posted by: james108

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super-rich vs. everyone else
Posted by: roy f on Jul 16, 2009 9:08 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article completely misses the point. This depression we are in was caused by a massive transfer of wealth to the super-rich from everyone else, starting with Reagan, and continued by Clinton and Obama as well as greatly accelerated by Bush. This depression was set off when disparities of wealth got too high, just as happened in 1929. The less money that ordinary consumers have to spend, the less they spend, and the more the economy slows. (True, the super-rich have more money to spend, but the poorer people are, the greater % of money they have is spent. Giving the rich more money doesn't make them spend much more, because they already have enough.) So the super-rich keep consumers spending and the economy going, even while they take money away from ordinary people by lowering their salaries, etc., by lending them back the money they have taken. (That is why massive debt always goes hand-in-hand with right-wing policies.) That way, the economy seems fine even while it is being looted, so few people object. Otherwise, people would see how the economy slows whenever disparities of wealth increase, contrary to what right- wingers claim. But propping up consumer spending with endlessly increasing debt cannot go on forever. It inevitably leads to a crash when consumers can no longer pay the interest on their debt and the super-rich get nervous lending consumers more money. Then, people finally see what right-wing policies have brought, but by then it is too late.

Therefore, the only way to end this depression is to reverse what has been done in the past 3 decades. Massively transfer wealth back down from the super-rich to everyone else, and ordinary consumers will have more money to spend -- without going into debt to do it. Of course, this will probably never happen, because the super-rich have bought almost all the politicians, and also the mass-media, keeping ordinary people hopelessly confused -- just as this article does. But maybe if enough ordinary people get desperate enough, they will finally wake up, and start coming after the super-rich with guillotines.

Whether we stimulate the economy through tax cuts or greater government spending is irrelevant. What's important is WHO gets those tax cuts or government money, the super-rich or everyone else, therefore whether wealth is being further concentrated or is being unconcentrated. (I personally prefer small-government leftism, of completely eliminating all taxes on ordinary people and instituting negative taxes and a guaranteed minimum income, and having the rich, especially the super-rich, pay ALL the taxes.)

Obama and the Democrats are mostly further concentrating wealth through their massive bailouts of the super-rich, while tossing a few crumbs downward to ordinary people to fool them into thinking they are on their side. They are running up massive deficits to stimulate the economy, but since they are giving most of that money to the super-rich, it is not stimulating the economy. And even better than the Keynesian policy of running up deficits to stimulate the economy, transfering wealth from future generations to the present one, would be to transfer wealth from the super-rich to everyone else.

Decades of nonsensical Republican propaganda about tax cuts vs. big government taxing and spending, deliberately without specifying WHO gets those tax cuts or government money and WHO pays those taxes, has apparently made almost all Americans incapable of thinking clearly about economic policy -- including in this article.

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» That's exactly it Posted by: je5752
» RE: That's exactly it Posted by: roy f

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I See the Big Fascist Push Has Started
Posted by: grokagain on Jul 16, 2009 9:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Really, how long do we think we can hold out until people forget what has gotten us into this mess and start blaming the ones who are trying to get us out of this mess?

As soon as corporations are able to successfully shape the message. Listening to Fox & Friends this morning I see how seemingly populist they're becoming. They will steal the message, and re-shape it in a way that protects corporations and the super wealthy. They always have.

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» I hope you're not implying... Posted by: james108

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hmmm
Posted by: tazdelaney on Jul 16, 2009 10:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
so, helping the betrayed citizenry in its struggle is 'repugnant bolshevism' but when corporate-communists like bush-cheney-obama give $12.2 trillion to the very financial criminals who schemed this global crisis, that's the necessity to prop up our beloved capitalist hegemony with their guarded compounds and limos?

'conservative' bush nearly tripled the national debt to just under $12 trillion, not including the obscured outlays of his last year in office via the fed reserve and so forth. add to this the $12.2 which has gone out since late 2007 and unless my math is mistaken; the real national debt is about $23trillion? seems to me this is an unpayable debt and at the best a debt that rests on the backs of the worker and the poorest. the wall street journal reported in 2005 that in most years, 20% of america's millionaires PAID NO TAXES AT ALL! they have the offshore accounts and the hotsy accountants, not us, eh? same with the fortune 500 where huge 'tax breaks' are doled out readily by bribed officialdom.

me, i'm for authentic democracy (not this demockery); i'm for genuine socialism. democracy and socialism SHARE the wealth and power. add a little well-regulated free enterprise and a healthy dose of anarcho-libertarianism and voila! but what we have is the worst of hoarding faux-democracy, corporate-communism blended easily with capitalism run amok (like china...) – in other words, fascism.

mussolini said, "fascism should more properly be called corporatism, as it is the merger of governmental and industrial powers." doesn't that pretty much define america, EU, russia and the PRC? we are just the toejam under these elephant's feet.

jefferson wrote, "it is our fervent hope that we shall crush in its infancy the moneyed aristocracy of the corporations, who already bid defiance to our revolution and the laws of the country." he also said, "banks pose more of a threat to liberty than even tyrants.' yes to both of these, tom!

tragically, it is time for the return of the guilotine. while most all revolutions come full circle right back to more tyrants oppression... sometimes it is just plain necessary. let the rich and powerful find out what it is like to pick food out of the trash for a change.

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consider this
Posted by: tazdelaney on Jul 16, 2009 2:16 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
my wife, most of our friends and i are lifelong multimedia artists in our mid-50s, as well as being 25 year tech mavens, largely in music and other major media industries in new york city. as entrepreneurs we've had our ups and downs throughout, including the 5-year fight in court over our treacherously stolen business now making millions a year. we have serious resumes covering our accomplishments and are now pressing our recent sound, solid business plans in search of angel investment, as SBA is nowhere. anyone interested in discussing these remarkable plans can contact us plexflux@nyc.rr.com.

but how about this idea... yes, i'm completely serious... we want to make a fake guilotine of moderate size and put it up near or on wall street as an 'impromptu' art/media/activism event. yes, we'd get media coverage. yes the world would twitter and chirp. yes i would likely be illegally arrested and fight it on the grounds of the 1st amendment and various state and city laws providing for free expression, etcetera. so long as they don't throw me in gitmo, no problem.

i could get this done for a few thousand dollars. the 3Cs of publicity are Controversy, Coverage and Credibility, all of which this has. i might finally sell some of my art! want to see some of my work? {http://home.roadrunner.com/~madlaney/taz/spell3.html} do listen to the voiceover of my writing, too.

all inquiries appreciated, thanks. taz delaney

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» RE: consider this Posted by: blondesprite

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Stimulus maybe; but restoring democracy first
Posted by: cplot on Jul 16, 2009 2:30 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One common misconception I want to correct that I see repeated here. The stimulus spending does not create a deficit. The deficit is created (or significantly increased) by the economic downturn. Then we are faced with the decision to have a deficit based on stimulus spending or an even larger deficit based on declining national income.

I am one who tends to favor stimulus spending if done right. However, we’re not getting things done right and as many here in this thread have wisely stated, we need to ask what kind of stimulus before we simply start calling for more stimulus. The TARP (what some are referring to stimulus I) was not a stimulus at all. Even Obama’s stimulus plan called for more money for the bankers which is really a raiding of the treasury and not an economic policy at all.

So the issue that first needs to be addressed is what kind of stimulus. The greatest and most rapid stimulus would come from handouts to the poorest Americans. For example we could have used the TARP money and the original stimulus money to address struggling mortgage holders by re-calibrating mortgage loans to the true value of their underlying assets. We could still do that, but we should consider the trillions already passed to the banks as wasted money and not as stimulus money.

Along with mortgage realignment we could also give funds directly to poorer households (like all those below the median household income). While these households might have many debts, the debts are relatively small and could be paid off by direct transfers to those households and those households will then spend a far greater proportion of their incomes then anyone else. Give a $100 million bonus to a AIG executive and they’ll likely spend far less than half in this uncertain climate. Give $100 million to 10,000 households and they’ll spend more like 90% or more. This transfer directly improves the lives of those in the most need, but it also quickly lifts us all our of this crisis and gets everyone earning higher incomes and increases production.

However, if speed is not the only goal but also prosperity, we should consider accelerating programs that are not shovel ready but maybe only in the idea stage. This might mean that it takes years to have stimulus effect (so best combined with the rapid effects of direct aid to lower income households). However, the investments in high speed rail, rail electrification, desert solar, wind farms, pumped storage hydroelectric, rapid transit, streetcars, trolley buses and other energy and transportation projects would provide a valuable infrastructure to improve the prospects of our descendants.

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Let's be inclusive here.
Posted by: monkeywrench on Jul 16, 2009 2:37 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Unfortunately, the politicians and pundits in Washington are either too ignorant, dishonest, or scared ..."

How about, "all of the above?"

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we need a real revolution
Posted by: sharonsylvie on Jul 16, 2009 4:37 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
According to all I've read, the real unemployment numbers--which include those who have dropped off the rolls and part-timers who can't find a full-time job--are closer to 20%. But after TARP, and the stimulus, there is no money left to do much else--unless we get out of two undeclared wars and do something about our massive, wasteful military budget. We have 800 military bases around the world. Why? I thought we weren't supposed to be "empire building'? All I know is the crazy spending in D.C. means no cost-of-living increase in my Social Security for the next two years. I'm already surviving on bagels now. What's next? Dog food?

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Arrant Nonsense!
Posted by: dayahka on Jul 16, 2009 7:12 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What utter nonsense! Where do we start? Unemployment at 10 percent? How about twice that, since the government invariably lies, by at least 50%. Unemployment is at around 20% now--and due to grow larger.

We need more stimulus? No, hardly, we can't afford it, except by "borrowing" from the poor--at the point of a gun, as usual. No, the US and all so-called "advanced" nations need to cut their workweeks, cut pay, and cut their expected GDPs by at least 50%, then stop the Disney and Peter Pan dreams and get people working on oil-less agriculture, car-less culture, and far, far simpler and more frugal lifestyles.

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We have stared defeat in the eye--and nothing has changed.
Posted by: Sojourner on Jul 16, 2009 7:27 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As often noted, the economic action out of Washington, DC, amounts to socialism for the rich. Sure, they're holdings are reduced, but maybe just temporarily--witness the profits and earnings in Q2 for financials.

Those who are not rich, on the other hand, have been hung out to dry. Jobless, homeless, sick, and deprived people, who until recently were working, now have nowhere to turn with the destruction of the welfare system and depressed home prices.

That is not change. That is the way America has always treated its working people, except for the New Deal and the post-WWII prosperity. A $2T additional stimulus will be far better in both the long- and short-term than the social disorder looming.

Make no mistake. Americans will continue suffering in large numbers in the absence of direct action by the government. Where's the help when the People need it?

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Socialism, not Stimulus
Posted by: william123 on Jul 17, 2009 11:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No, we don't need to give the capitalists more of our tax money to assure their ownership over our labor or lives. We need to declare capitalism the failure it is and always has been and attempt to build the first real socialism in history. And we won't. At least not until it all crashes and then we can only hope. But to talk about saving a sociopathic, self-destructive and greed/hate/racist and fascist based system like this imperialistic capitalist failure in exchange for continued economic servitude...? Don't insult me anymore than I have been after 39 years of life in this pathatic joke of a system.

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Economical Jobs - For How Long
Posted by: Jonalist on Jul 21, 2009 5:00 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That sounds like everyone needs to pay additional Tax on Water Bottles because they are filling the landfills and are not as safe for the environment as we thought. Material contamination reaches a point that one day because of abundance the mold infestation will over come other products faster and be harder to keep removing, it is creating another job category. Health care might create job categories that are just out of this world like robotic medical doctors and nurses instead of the real thing cause they do not have to go through more than four years of college to be programmed to do the same tasks like helping put on someones clothing or pushing a wheelchair down the hall every few minutes. Tending to the over crowding in parking lots, mowing the hospital lawn, watering the flowers outside of the hospital, perhaps monitoring a patient and having in the program what to do if such and such happens. Careers are vanishing because of technology, whats worse is that technology is designing a new future, what if one day government is nothing but technology where robots are making the robots and computing is the size of a pencil with wireless HDDs and DVDs or monitors that can work as a double monitor if necessary for a transmitting device that left its monitor back in the office.

We have a device that can hold a charge for a extended amount of time called a battery, we also have a temporary solution that uses a recycled content that robots could manage more efficently than a human which creates a charge when water is added and holds that charge for a certain amount of time before consumption, its a P-Cell and that would be relief for water purification plants cutting down on the high Ph waters to create electricity as a byproduct.

Although many jobs could end up being taken over by technology some small job that De-Hazes a auto headlight might last a few years, it is almost like shing shoes and could be one day mechanized and controlled by a robot. I was speaking to a De-Hazer of automotive headlights and he became convenienced that his meek job needed a boost, might you consider this so he can help with the bread-butter issue at his home. His overhead is eating up his profit margin and so why should he pay additional tax, he would end up bringing home nothing each month. It is not a career that 100's of people feel it necessary to De-Haze their headlights each month, at $35.00 a pair he does not earn enough to count a Income Tax. If you want a Foundation you need to help him get connected and then every vehicle that passes through can have a De-Hazer employed and his earnings boost from not having to pay the overhead cost of his small job would be enhanced, maybe then he could plan a family of four. He says he would like the job if your willing to help him so until a robot learns what a automotive headlight is and how it gets hazed and how to remove the haze he has the job and could teach you.

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Why Does alternet.org pages keep updating
Posted by: Jonalist on Jul 21, 2009 5:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is annoying - alternet.org pages keep updating and this stops a copy paste operation with the mouse, stops a scroll operation when reading etc etc. Is there something the owner of this website could do to stop this page update process? I do not need it updated unless I click Refresh on my browser. Is there a place to file a complaint about alternet.org.

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J. CARTER OBAMA FADING HA HA
Posted by: reelman on Jul 21, 2009 6:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama delays Guantanamo report...

White House misses deadline on spending cuts report... UPDATE: Administration Delays Key Budget Report... Poll: Public losing trust in Obama...

Danger signs... RNC: Obama's health care is 'socialism'... UK: Man, 22, Dies After Liver Transplant Refused...
=====
Reality...secular socialism sux.

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trhe-ray
Posted by: itouch backup on Jul 21, 2009 8:29 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Blu Ray Burner|||MTS Converter For Mac can easily convert MTS files to other popular video/audio formats.

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Who Pays?
Posted by: LiveFree on Jul 23, 2009 4:07 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Those who advocate a second round of "stimulus" spending should pay for it out of their own pockets. We have indebted our great grandchildren by now!

What this country needs is regulatory reform, ending the borrowing and spending of the past eight years by returning Congress to fiscal sanity (recently eliminating wasteful spending on unneeded war planes is one example), a return to a federal tax system that has corporations and individuals paying an equitable and reasonable rate (by ending loopholes and subsidies and tax cuts for the wealthy who never needed tax cuts in the past 30 years), a return to the rule of law by prosecuting those in the Bush administrations who have broken laws, Congress finally keeping its promise to fund 40 percent of special education (instead of the 18 percent it has been providing states), providing tax benefits for creating new green jobs, a carbon tax like Sweden has been prospering from for over a decade, severe reduction of unnecessary government and government costs, and finding ways to help states balance their budgets.

Citizens must take back their government by lobbying Congress and the White House and holding every elected public official accountable.

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Kitchen Blues
Posted by: When In Doubt on Jul 23, 2009 4:39 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is that old saw...Too many Chefs in the kitchen?

Me thinks that applies also to the on-line economists congregated here.

How could we send all these ideas to President Obama?

He needs a good laugh about now.

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single payer
Posted by: hahaho on Jul 30, 2009 7:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As single payer is implemented the cost of health insurance can be reduced through lower administrative costs, elimination of profit and advertising that health insurance companies need.links of london tiffany

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Alternet Comments:

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Repugnant Bolshevik nonsense!
Posted by: JimmyChang on Jul 16, 2009 12:56 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
More spending is not the answer! All this credit-card economics is doing is delaying the obvious: eventually, China will stop lending us money when it becomes obvious that there is no mathematical possibility of us ever paying them back. And then we're all in for a world of hurt that will make this recession seem like the rosy "gold ol' days."

We need to slash spending by any means necessary. It will cause severe pain at first, but that will only be temporary. Eventually, the economy will evolve into a new shape, new industries will create new jobs, and life will go on. Borrowing trillions more now is just a painkiller, but it doesn't cure the disease.

Your statistics are nonsense. Spending a dollar adds $1.50 to the economy? Cutting a taxdollar only adds 90 cents to the economy? What government study pulled those numbers out of thin air? If more taxes and more spending boosts the economy, why stop at $2 trillion? Why not borrow ten trillion, a hundred trillion? If more government spending will save the economy, why not go full Soviet and make every job a government job? And let's raise the minimum wage to $1000/hour so we can all be millionaires by next Christmas! Let's balance the budget by raising taxes! Worked great in California!

This has absolutely nothing to do with saving jobs or boosting the economy. This is just another excuse to spend spend spend, which justifies tax tax tax. More money for the government means more power in the hands of government, and that means more corruption. Look at Obama, Kennedy, or Bill Clinton. Have any of them ever had a REAL job? Of course not, why work for a living when you can suck the blood of taxpayers and call it public service?

If any cares about saving jobs, they might suggest any of the following:

-cut income taxes and capital gains taxes

-lower of eliminate the minimum wage

-deregulate and let small-businesses work

-deport job-stealing illegal aliens

-forget about cap-and-tax-and-outsourse-jobs

But this isn't about saving jobs. This is about enlarging an already bloated federal government. November 2010 can't come fast enough!

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» Get a job! Posted by: JimmyChang
» RE: Get a job! Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: You're right about SMALL business... Posted by: progressiveview
» RE: epugnant Bolshevik nonsense! Posted by: blondesprite
» Cut military spending by 50% Posted by: tommy_slothrop
» RE: The realest part of your post! Posted by: premarachel
» RE: repugnant Republican nonsense! Posted by: peterjkraus

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Tom
Posted by: tkd82arty@netscape.net on Jul 16, 2009 1:21 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Eliminate the federal government, eliminate the federal deficit. Why is this hard to understand?

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2 Triilion ? ... How About Single Payer Right Now ?
Posted by: mmckinl on Jul 16, 2009 1:23 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Two trillion dollars would be more than enough to pay for single payer health care for all and then some ...

This freshly injected cash would help business, state and local governments, the under and uninsured while giving a huge boost to consumer confidence ...

As single payer is implemented the cost of health insurance can be reduced through lower administrative costs, elimination of profit and advertising that health insurance companies need.

Over time standardization of billing, records, diagnosis and treatment will reduce costs even further ... The trick are the start up costs for implementing information systems and data gathering to discover best practice for all that ails us ...

I've only been saying all this for a year ... The chances for all this being implemented :0.5%.

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» RE: What would you do with $2 trillion? Posted by: JenniferBedingfield
» Great plan, comrade! Posted by: JimmyChang
» RE: Great plan, comrade! Posted by: JenniferBedingfield

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Get Real
Posted by: BeckyD on Jul 16, 2009 3:50 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When the current stimulus was being debated, President Obama said it would save and create jobs, hold the line on unemployment. Well, unemployment is now at what? 9.5%? Yeah. That worked real well.

And now you propose doing the same thing, only with $2 trillion instead of 'just' $700 billion? One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results. Stimulus 1 (under Bush) didn't work. Stimulus 2 didn't work. Why are we even considering Stimulus 3?

We don't HAVE $2 trillion. Where do you propose to get it? Print it? Basic Econ 101 and a quick lesson in history will show you where that leads. Borrow it? From what I read, foreign governments are already nervous about our level of debt, and I for one do not intend to allow this government to saddle my children and grandchildren with mounds of debt, to enslave them to China and India, as long as I have breath in my body.

So no, Mr. Baker. We don't need a whopping 2 trill in stimulus. We need sensible, reality-based policies designed to free the private economy to work. We need to spend our own money, or better, save and invest it, not have government do it for us. And most of all we need to end our personal and governmental reliance on credit.

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» Get Real? Posted by: JimmyChang
» RE: Get Real - I agree. Posted by: JenniferBedingfield
» RE: Get Real Posted by: sevengen
» RE: Get Real Posted by: yellow

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Our Childrens Future
Posted by: CTC123 on Jul 16, 2009 4:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Consider the Connection to:
Wise-use
It's not how much we spend,It,s how much we save.
In the future survival will depend on a GREEN
economy, "meaning conservation", the wise-use,
of the Earths natural resources, including the
responsible 'wise-use' of our childrens money.
Please Search:
CTC123GREEN

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All foreplay, no sex?
Posted by: folkie on Jul 16, 2009 5:11 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No matter how much stimulation and titillation we get, we're still gonna get screwed.

A couple of trillion bucks to pay down our debt to China would be like making an extra mortgage payment--it would help, but only over the long term.

A couple of trillion bucks to corporations and individuals would, at best, create more jobs in China and allow people to buy more Chinese goods.

A few million diverted from the military-industrial complex, the prison-industrial complex, and the health-industrial complex, and invested in green jobs, would reduce unemployment.

What we have in this country is mob rule, if you define "mob" as an organized criminal syndicate like a multinational corporation. Giving more money to the mob isn't going to benefit anyone except the mobsters.

Low income seniors and the disabled on SSI in California got a $250 stimulus from Obama. At the same time, he cut funding to the states, so California's governor cut SSI benefits, resulting in a net $400 loss in income for each SSI beneficiary for the year. What kind of fool would rush out and spend their "stimulus?"

Banksters, on the other hand, got a huge stimulus and they rushed out to spend it on bonuses and yacht parties. There was no appreciable trickle-down to the public. Loans remained hard to get, mortgages hard to refinance, and interest rates and fees went up.

A decision to tax the rich to finance health care is laughable. The administration decided not to push Swiss banks to reveal the names of Americans with secret bank accounts, so we don't even know who the wealthy tax evaders are and we certainly have no way to tax them. Remember the spate of billionaires renouncing their U.S. citizenship so as not to pay taxes? When they were outsourcing our jobs, they knew full well they were destroying our economy, and they made sure that they couldn't be held accountable.

How does an undocumented immigrant here take away a job that has been outsourced to China, Burma, India, Mexico, the Phillipines, etc.? If immigrants really wanted to take our jobs, they'd stay home because that's where our jobs went.

You can stimulate a dead horse all you want, but it isn't going to get up.

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Not Another DIME
Posted by: Ohjin on Jul 16, 2009 5:39 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ours is a dead and corrupt system that needs to be put out its misery... not eternally resuscitated.

NOT ANOTHER DIME!

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Fantasy Land
Posted by: snowhound on Jul 16, 2009 5:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Soon to be a living hell...

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A long way from being correct
Posted by: awilson5280 on Jul 16, 2009 6:05 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article is very short-sighted. The United States is on the verge of a credit downgrade because of its staggering federal debt. Piling another $2,000,000,000,000 on top is not the answer.

Setting aside the practical problems (which we know are coming) with hyperinflation that result from the government printing more dollars, we are back to the concept of moral hazard. However, in this case the hazard is not limited to jerks on Wall Street, but to our whole society. What is the point in saving if our government is going to bail us out until our nation collapses?

Anyway, the real problem is population. Economics tries to operate in a rational vacuum, but the truth is that we evolved from animals and remain animals, bound by a competition for resources. The United States is starting to get crowded enough that it is no longer the land of opportunity that it once was. Our material development has gone far enough that our competition for resources cannot be resolved by the willingness to move west and kill some natives. While we do not yet face the problems of China, India, or Bangladesh, we are starting to see the results of the delusion that we can grow our population without facing serious environmental and economic consequences.

Unfortunately, it is politically radioactive to tell one's constituents that it may be bad for both them and society for them to reproduce. Ah, the paradox of life - often, the things that need to be said the most cannot be said.

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"Our Economy Needs at Least $2 Trillion.."
Posted by: xvictor on Jul 16, 2009 6:09 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
End the Iraq/Afghan debacle and unilaterally withdraw our troops. That should save about a trillion dollars in a pinch.

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» AMEN ! Posted by: mtnprivy

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Fiscal Reality
Posted by: kad on Jul 16, 2009 6:17 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It may come as quite a shock to many, but the profligate spending in D.C. needs to end. There needs to be across the board spending cuts in all areas including defense and social programs if this great experiment of a republic is to survive another century. Credit card economics is dead for for the individual consumption unit, and for the government which it enabled. Living a simple, frugal, existence is the only way forward.

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rgd
Posted by: rgd on Jul 16, 2009 6:19 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hitler did the same thing in Germany before the war which was print money and spend on public works projects. Hitler was no saint and deserves the condemnation he recieved, however, He cared more for the Germany people than Obama cares for us.

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Both parties are corrupt
Posted by: warrior woman on Jul 16, 2009 6:38 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Looks like a lot of Republicans are out today expressing opinions.

Stimulus worked during the Depression, however, the application of the stimulus to date has not been similar to what it had been in the 1930's.

Stimulus 1 or TARP was a giveaway to the financial industry essentially to fund the house since they had run this enormous Ponzi scheme. That original 700 billion plus the trillions "lent" or printed by the Fed have not created more loans or eased credit (that is allowed for traditional money creation) nor has unemployment eased in any way. TARP was a sham to coverup the wrong doing of the banks.

Now, Stimulus 2, as Baker states is slow out of the gate and hasn't done enough to jump start the economy. I'm not sure that we expected the economy to ramp up after 3-4 months of the money starting to go into the system, did we? The "media" thought 2010 or so, not July of 2009. Obama said it would get worse before it got better.

While we can call for more stimulus, we do have to reckon that we have added trillions and trillions of dollars of more debt to future generations.

We haven't seen Congress enact or re-enact any financial regulation and they won't. They could easily re-enact Glass Stegall and separate the finance, insurance and banking industries but the WON'T. They could have the votes but they won't. Because they're bought. And therein lies the crux of the matter. All we hear are excuses of why they can't do this or that. People are waking up to understand that Congress and most all of elected officials in the Federal govt are corrupt. They are bought and paid for by industry and we the people are screwed at every turn.

Let me give some examples: 1) on a state basis, who pays 95% of the taxes? Individuals. 2) from an environmental perspective, who uses the least amount of energy and other resources such as water (10%)? Individuals. 3) List of Democratic Senators not supporting Public Health Option and the amount of bribes they took at:
http://vote.wewantthepublicoption.com/p-e-launch-link-S 4) The Future Is Deflation By Mike Whitney http://informationclearinghouse.info/article23039.htm

"Household wealth has dipped $14 trillion since the crisis began. Wages are slowly retreating and unemployment is at 9.5% a 25 year high. Also, the percentage of home equity has fallen below 50% for the first time on record."
5) The New Energy Bill May Create a 'Super Lobby' of Powerful Opposition
By Teryn Norris, AlterNet
Posted on July 8, 2009, Printed on July 14, 2009 http://www.alternet.org/politics/141132/the_new
_energy_bill_may_create_a_%27super
_lobby%27_of_powerful_opposition/ This one is very important, more trickery from the thugs on global climate change when in fact, Goldman will be the big winner! The Great American Bubble Machine
Matt Taibbi on how Goldman Sachs has engineered every major market manipulation since the Great Depression
MATT TAIBBI HTTP://WWW.ROLLINGSTONE.COM/POLITICS/
STORY/
28816321/THE_GREAT_AMERICAN_
BUBBLE_MACHINE
"the new game in town, the next bubble, is in carbon credits — a booming trillion- dollar market that barely even exists yet, but will if the Democratic Party that it gave $4,452,585 to in the last election manages to push into existence a groundbreaking new commodities bubble, disguised as an "environmental plan," called cap-and-trade."

That's why WE, the people are not up to more stiumulus, we've been taken to the cleaners too many times. No one trusts the govt to take care of US any longer.

Of course, the same is said of Republicans. They have industries divied up and they "take turns" defending or denigrating depending upon the topic, all the while, taking massive donations to keep up the show.

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» RE: Both parties are corrupt Posted by: monkeywrench

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The 1.5 multiplier effect of stimulus money is meaningless ...
Posted by: monkeywrench on Jul 16, 2009 7:09 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... because the current stimulus money has been given to Wall Street pirates, not spent on Main Street projects. The multiplier effect of handing money to the same crooks who have already stolen trillions is a deeply negative figure.

Will Main Street see much of another stimulus? I doubt it. We don't count – and Washington can't count.

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The new trickle down
Posted by: james108 on Jul 16, 2009 8:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So the new trickle down is to give billionaires billions, and bribe the people with a few million of their own money, borrowed at a high interest rate?

I don't think we can trust them to do another stimulus. So much of it was funneled to Goldman Sachs and his other backers how can we trust him to write another check of borrowed money we'll have to pay back at high interest to the Fed as well as shooting up inflation?

I hate when they paint it that the stimulus wasn't enough, and don't even broach the idea that it was done wrong, and not in the people's interests. We propped up Goldman debtors and let their competition go out of business why?

Really though, any serious discussion of what we need to do to fix the economy has to address the war hemorrhage. How many trillions have we spent to ensure multinational corporations have control of the world's oil? How many troops do we have stationed across the globe and how much does that cost? Maybe that's why the reality of the situation can't be discussed.

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» RE: The new trickle down Posted by: bichomau
» It's not a real vote though Posted by: james108

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super-rich vs. everyone else
Posted by: roy f on Jul 16, 2009 9:08 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article completely misses the point. This depression we are in was caused by a massive transfer of wealth to the super-rich from everyone else, starting with Reagan, and continued by Clinton and Obama as well as greatly accelerated by Bush. This depression was set off when disparities of wealth got too high, just as happened in 1929. The less money that ordinary consumers have to spend, the less they spend, and the more the economy slows. (True, the super-rich have more money to spend, but the poorer people are, the greater % of money they have is spent. Giving the rich more money doesn't make them spend much more, because they already have enough.) So the super-rich keep consumers spending and the economy going, even while they take money away from ordinary people by lowering their salaries, etc., by lending them back the money they have taken. (That is why massive debt always goes hand-in-hand with right-wing policies.) That way, the economy seems fine even while it is being looted, so few people object. Otherwise, people would see how the economy slows whenever disparities of wealth increase, contrary to what right- wingers claim. But propping up consumer spending with endlessly increasing debt cannot go on forever. It inevitably leads to a crash when consumers can no longer pay the interest on their debt and the super-rich get nervous lending consumers more money. Then, people finally see what right-wing policies have brought, but by then it is too late.

Therefore, the only way to end this depression is to reverse what has been done in the past 3 decades. Massively transfer wealth back down from the super-rich to everyone else, and ordinary consumers will have more money to spend -- without going into debt to do it. Of course, this will probably never happen, because the super-rich have bought almost all the politicians, and also the mass-media, keeping ordinary people hopelessly confused -- just as this article does. But maybe if enough ordinary people get desperate enough, they will finally wake up, and start coming after the super-rich with guillotines.

Whether we stimulate the economy through tax cuts or greater government spending is irrelevant. What's important is WHO gets those tax cuts or government money, the super-rich or everyone else, therefore whether wealth is being further concentrated or is being unconcentrated. (I personally prefer small-government leftism, of completely eliminating all taxes on ordinary people and instituting negative taxes and a guaranteed minimum income, and having the rich, especially the super-rich, pay ALL the taxes.)

Obama and the Democrats are mostly further concentrating wealth through their massive bailouts of the super-rich, while tossing a few crumbs downward to ordinary people to fool them into thinking they are on their side. They are running up massive deficits to stimulate the economy, but since they are giving most of that money to the super-rich, it is not stimulating the economy. And even better than the Keynesian policy of running up deficits to stimulate the economy, transfering wealth from future generations to the present one, would be to transfer wealth from the super-rich to everyone else.

Decades of nonsensical Republican propaganda about tax cuts vs. big government taxing and spending, deliberately without specifying WHO gets those tax cuts or government money and WHO pays those taxes, has apparently made almost all Americans incapable of thinking clearly about economic policy -- including in this article.

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» That's exactly it Posted by: je5752
» RE: That's exactly it Posted by: roy f

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I See the Big Fascist Push Has Started
Posted by: grokagain on Jul 16, 2009 9:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Really, how long do we think we can hold out until people forget what has gotten us into this mess and start blaming the ones who are trying to get us out of this mess?

As soon as corporations are able to successfully shape the message. Listening to Fox & Friends this morning I see how seemingly populist they're becoming. They will steal the message, and re-shape it in a way that protects corporations and the super wealthy. They always have.

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» I hope you're not implying... Posted by: james108

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hmmm
Posted by: tazdelaney on Jul 16, 2009 10:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
so, helping the betrayed citizenry in its struggle is 'repugnant bolshevism' but when corporate-communists like bush-cheney-obama give $12.2 trillion to the very financial criminals who schemed this global crisis, that's the necessity to prop up our beloved capitalist hegemony with their guarded compounds and limos?

'conservative' bush nearly tripled the national debt to just under $12 trillion, not including the obscured outlays of his last year in office via the fed reserve and so forth. add to this the $12.2 which has gone out since late 2007 and unless my math is mistaken; the real national debt is about $23trillion? seems to me this is an unpayable debt and at the best a debt that rests on the backs of the worker and the poorest. the wall street journal reported in 2005 that in most years, 20% of america's millionaires PAID NO TAXES AT ALL! they have the offshore accounts and the hotsy accountants, not us, eh? same with the fortune 500 where huge 'tax breaks' are doled out readily by bribed officialdom.

me, i'm for authentic democracy (not this demockery); i'm for genuine socialism. democracy and socialism SHARE the wealth and power. add a little well-regulated free enterprise and a healthy dose of anarcho-libertarianism and voila! but what we have is the worst of hoarding faux-democracy, corporate-communism blended easily with capitalism run amok (like china...) – in other words, fascism.

mussolini said, "fascism should more properly be called corporatism, as it is the merger of governmental and industrial powers." doesn't that pretty much define america, EU, russia and the PRC? we are just the toejam under these elephant's feet.

jefferson wrote, "it is our fervent hope that we shall crush in its infancy the moneyed aristocracy of the corporations, who already bid defiance to our revolution and the laws of the country." he also said, "banks pose more of a threat to liberty than even tyrants.' yes to both of these, tom!

tragically, it is time for the return of the guilotine. while most all revolutions come full circle right back to more tyrants oppression... sometimes it is just plain necessary. let the rich and powerful find out what it is like to pick food out of the trash for a change.

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consider this
Posted by: tazdelaney on Jul 16, 2009 2:16 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
my wife, most of our friends and i are lifelong multimedia artists in our mid-50s, as well as being 25 year tech mavens, largely in music and other major media industries in new york city. as entrepreneurs we've had our ups and downs throughout, including the 5-year fight in court over our treacherously stolen business now making millions a year. we have serious resumes covering our accomplishments and are now pressing our recent sound, solid business plans in search of angel investment, as SBA is nowhere. anyone interested in discussing these remarkable plans can contact us plexflux@nyc.rr.com.

but how about this idea... yes, i'm completely serious... we want to make a fake guilotine of moderate size and put it up near or on wall street as an 'impromptu' art/media/activism event. yes, we'd get media coverage. yes the world would twitter and chirp. yes i would likely be illegally arrested and fight it on the grounds of the 1st amendment and various state and city laws providing for free expression, etcetera. so long as they don't throw me in gitmo, no problem.

i could get this done for a few thousand dollars. the 3Cs of publicity are Controversy, Coverage and Credibility, all of which this has. i might finally sell some of my art! want to see some of my work? {http://home.roadrunner.com/~madlaney/taz/spell3.html} do listen to the voiceover of my writing, too.

all inquiries appreciated, thanks. taz delaney

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» RE: consider this Posted by: blondesprite

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Stimulus maybe; but restoring democracy first
Posted by: cplot on Jul 16, 2009 2:30 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One common misconception I want to correct that I see repeated here. The stimulus spending does not create a deficit. The deficit is created (or significantly increased) by the economic downturn. Then we are faced with the decision to have a deficit based on stimulus spending or an even larger deficit based on declining national income.

I am one who tends to favor stimulus spending if done right. However, we’re not getting things done right and as many here in this thread have wisely stated, we need to ask what kind of stimulus before we simply start calling for more stimulus. The TARP (what some are referring to stimulus I) was not a stimulus at all. Even Obama’s stimulus plan called for more money for the bankers which is really a raiding of the treasury and not an economic policy at all.

So the issue that first needs to be addressed is what kind of stimulus. The greatest and most rapid stimulus would come from handouts to the poorest Americans. For example we could have used the TARP money and the original stimulus money to address struggling mortgage holders by re-calibrating mortgage loans to the true value of their underlying assets. We could still do that, but we should consider the trillions already passed to the banks as wasted money and not as stimulus money.

Along with mortgage realignment we could also give funds directly to poorer households (like all those below the median household income). While these households might have many debts, the debts are relatively small and could be paid off by direct transfers to those households and those households will then spend a far greater proportion of their incomes then anyone else. Give a $100 million bonus to a AIG executive and they’ll likely spend far less than half in this uncertain climate. Give $100 million to 10,000 households and they’ll spend more like 90% or more. This transfer directly improves the lives of those in the most need, but it also quickly lifts us all our of this crisis and gets everyone earning higher incomes and increases production.

However, if speed is not the only goal but also prosperity, we should consider accelerating programs that are not shovel ready but maybe only in the idea stage. This might mean that it takes years to have stimulus effect (so best combined with the rapid effects of direct aid to lower income households). However, the investments in high speed rail, rail electrification, desert solar, wind farms, pumped storage hydroelectric, rapid transit, streetcars, trolley buses and other energy and transportation projects would provide a valuable infrastructure to improve the prospects of our descendants.

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Let's be inclusive here.
Posted by: monkeywrench on Jul 16, 2009 2:37 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Unfortunately, the politicians and pundits in Washington are either too ignorant, dishonest, or scared ..."

How about, "all of the above?"

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we need a real revolution
Posted by: sharonsylvie on Jul 16, 2009 4:37 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
According to all I've read, the real unemployment numbers--which include those who have dropped off the rolls and part-timers who can't find a full-time job--are closer to 20%. But after TARP, and the stimulus, there is no money left to do much else--unless we get out of two undeclared wars and do something about our massive, wasteful military budget. We have 800 military bases around the world. Why? I thought we weren't supposed to be "empire building'? All I know is the crazy spending in D.C. means no cost-of-living increase in my Social Security for the next two years. I'm already surviving on bagels now. What's next? Dog food?

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Arrant Nonsense!
Posted by: dayahka on Jul 16, 2009 7:12 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What utter nonsense! Where do we start? Unemployment at 10 percent? How about twice that, since the government invariably lies, by at least 50%. Unemployment is at around 20% now--and due to grow larger.

We need more stimulus? No, hardly, we can't afford it, except by "borrowing" from the poor--at the point of a gun, as usual. No, the US and all so-called "advanced" nations need to cut their workweeks, cut pay, and cut their expected GDPs by at least 50%, then stop the Disney and Peter Pan dreams and get people working on oil-less agriculture, car-less culture, and far, far simpler and more frugal lifestyles.

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We have stared defeat in the eye--and nothing has changed.
Posted by: Sojourner on Jul 16, 2009 7:27 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As often noted, the economic action out of Washington, DC, amounts to socialism for the rich. Sure, they're holdings are reduced, but maybe just temporarily--witness the profits and earnings in Q2 for financials.

Those who are not rich, on the other hand, have been hung out to dry. Jobless, homeless, sick, and deprived people, who until recently were working, now have nowhere to turn with the destruction of the welfare system and depressed home prices.

That is not change. That is the way America has always treated its working people, except for the New Deal and the post-WWII prosperity. A $2T additional stimulus will be far better in both the long- and short-term than the social disorder looming.

Make no mistake. Americans will continue suffering in large numbers in the absence of direct action by the government. Where's the help when the People need it?

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Socialism, not Stimulus
Posted by: william123 on Jul 17, 2009 11:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No, we don't need to give the capitalists more of our tax money to assure their ownership over our labor or lives. We need to declare capitalism the failure it is and always has been and attempt to build the first real socialism in history. And we won't. At least not until it all crashes and then we can only hope. But to talk about saving a sociopathic, self-destructive and greed/hate/racist and fascist based system like this imperialistic capitalist failure in exchange for continued economic servitude...? Don't insult me anymore than I have been after 39 years of life in this pathatic joke of a system.

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Economical Jobs - For How Long
Posted by: Jonalist on Jul 21, 2009 5:00 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That sounds like everyone needs to pay additional Tax on Water Bottles because they are filling the landfills and are not as safe for the environment as we thought. Material contamination reaches a point that one day because of abundance the mold infestation will over come other products faster and be harder to keep removing, it is creating another job category. Health care might create job categories that are just out of this world like robotic medical doctors and nurses instead of the real thing cause they do not have to go through more than four years of college to be programmed to do the same tasks like helping put on someones clothing or pushing a wheelchair down the hall every few minutes. Tending to the over crowding in parking lots, mowing the hospital lawn, watering the flowers outside of the hospital, perhaps monitoring a patient and having in the program what to do if such and such happens. Careers are vanishing because of technology, whats worse is that technology is designing a new future, what if one day government is nothing but technology where robots are making the robots and computing is the size of a pencil with wireless HDDs and DVDs or monitors that can work as a double monitor if necessary for a transmitting device that left its monitor back in the office.

We have a device that can hold a charge for a extended amount of time called a battery, we also have a temporary solution that uses a recycled content that robots could manage more efficently than a human which creates a charge when water is added and holds that charge for a certain amount of time before consumption, its a P-Cell and that would be relief for water purification plants cutting down on the high Ph waters to create electricity as a byproduct.

Although many jobs could end up being taken over by technology some small job that De-Hazes a auto headlight might last a few years, it is almost like shing shoes and could be one day mechanized and controlled by a robot. I was speaking to a De-Hazer of automotive headlights and he became convenienced that his meek job needed a boost, might you consider this so he can help with the bread-butter issue at his home. His overhead is eating up his profit margin and so why should he pay additional tax, he would end up bringing home nothing each month. It is not a career that 100's of people feel it necessary to De-Haze their headlights each month, at $35.00 a pair he does not earn enough to count a Income Tax. If you want a Foundation you need to help him get connected and then every vehicle that passes through can have a De-Hazer employed and his earnings boost from not having to pay the overhead cost of his small job would be enhanced, maybe then he could plan a family of four. He says he would like the job if your willing to help him so until a robot learns what a automotive headlight is and how it gets hazed and how to remove the haze he has the job and could teach you.

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Why Does alternet.org pages keep updating
Posted by: Jonalist on Jul 21, 2009 5:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is annoying - alternet.org pages keep updating and this stops a copy paste operation with the mouse, stops a scroll operation when reading etc etc. Is there something the owner of this website could do to stop this page update process? I do not need it updated unless I click Refresh on my browser. Is there a place to file a complaint about alternet.org.

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J. CARTER OBAMA FADING HA HA
Posted by: reelman on Jul 21, 2009 6:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama delays Guantanamo report...

White House misses deadline on spending cuts report... UPDATE: Administration Delays Key Budget Report... Poll: Public losing trust in Obama...

Danger signs... RNC: Obama's health care is 'socialism'... UK: Man, 22, Dies After Liver Transplant Refused...
=====
Reality...secular socialism sux.

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trhe-ray
Posted by: itouch backup on Jul 21, 2009 8:29 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Blu Ray Burner|||MTS Converter For Mac can easily convert MTS files to other popular video/audio formats.

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Who Pays?
Posted by: LiveFree on Jul 23, 2009 4:07 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Those who advocate a second round of "stimulus" spending should pay for it out of their own pockets. We have indebted our great grandchildren by now!

What this country needs is regulatory reform, ending the borrowing and spending of the past eight years by returning Congress to fiscal sanity (recently eliminating wasteful spending on unneeded war planes is one example), a return to a federal tax system that has corporations and individuals paying an equitable and reasonable rate (by ending loopholes and subsidies and tax cuts for the wealthy who never needed tax cuts in the past 30 years), a return to the rule of law by prosecuting those in the Bush administrations who have broken laws, Congress finally keeping its promise to fund 40 percent of special education (instead of the 18 percent it has been providing states), providing tax benefits for creating new green jobs, a carbon tax like Sweden has been prospering from for over a decade, severe reduction of unnecessary government and government costs, and finding ways to help states balance their budgets.

Citizens must take back their government by lobbying Congress and the White House and holding every elected public official accountable.

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Kitchen Blues
Posted by: When In Doubt on Jul 23, 2009 4:39 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is that old saw...Too many Chefs in the kitchen?

Me thinks that applies also to the on-line economists congregated here.

How could we send all these ideas to President Obama?

He needs a good laugh about now.

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single payer
Posted by: hahaho on Jul 30, 2009 7:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As single payer is implemented the cost of health insurance can be reduced through lower administrative costs, elimination of profit and advertising that health insurance companies need.links of london tiffany

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