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"Deliver Us From Evil": The Amorality of the Catholic Church

By Greta Christina, Greta Christina's Blog. Posted July 4, 2009.


The basic hierarchy and theology of the Catholic Church is a recipe for the abuse of power.

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It's not like I didn't know this stuff. I knew it.

But somehow, this movie made it real, and bore the full reality of it in on me, in a way that it hadn't been before.

"Deliver Us From Evil" is a documentary about the extensive child- molestation scandal in the Catholic Church. And it transforms the horror of what happened into a full-scale moral outrage. Not just the obvious outrage over child molestation and the lives it ruins. Not just the outrage at the priest at the center of this particular scandal, Oliver O'Grady, and his repulsive and baffling lack of moral compass (it's like he knows what morality is supposed to look and sound like, but doesn't understand what it feels like or what it means). Not even just the outrage over how the Catholic Church consistently and at the highest levels acted to protect itself and its priests rather than to protect the children who were being put in harm's way: moving molesting priests around the country, lying to law enforcement, concealing evidence, even paying off witnesses. (And, of course, trying to blame it all on the gays.)

No, what this movie filled me with anew was an outrage over the very foundation of the Catholic Church: the essential nature of its theology and its organization.

The movie makes it clear that the child molestation scandal in the Catholic Church is not simply a few bad apples. It's not even just a case of a few bad apples and an organization's misguided attempts to circle the wagons. It is the predictable result of a religious organization that vests all of its spiritual connection with God, and all of the possibility for salvation and eternal life, in the hands of a relatively few authority figures. It is the predictable result of a religious organization that makes the organization itself, and its authority figures, a necessary conduit between people and God.

See, the point of this film wasn't "child molestation is bad." It wasn't even, "protecting child molesters and concealing their crimes so they can molest again is bad." You don't need a documentary to tell you that. No, the point of this film -- or one of the points, a point hammered on again and again by people both inside and outside the church familiar with this scandal -- is that the basic hierarchy and theology of the Catholic Church is a recipe for the abuse of power. When you teach people -- especially children -- that the only way to God and Heaven is through the rites of the Church, administered by Church authorities? When you teach people -- especially children -- that Church authorities have a special connection to God and goodness that ordinary people don't have? When you teach people -- especially children -- that defying the Church and its earthly representatives will condemn you to permanent, infinite burning and torture? When you do all that, widespread abuse of power is almost inevitable. (Add to this that when you teach warped messages about the wickedness of sex to seminary students in their teens, and demand that they refrain from it in order to pursue their special connection with God, it's almost inevitable that this abuse of power will often be sexual.)

And when you have a church hierarchy and theology founded on these ideas -- church authorities being special conduits to God, the necessity of going through these authorities and the rituals they perform to gain salvation -- then it's almost inevitable that they would circle the wagons when they become aware of that abuse... and relentlessly stonewall investigations when that abuse begins to come to light.


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The Usual Anti-Catholic Garbage
Posted by: bonapartist on Jul 4, 2009 1:27 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just love how the "progressive" scene in US normally has to avoid any form of discrimination. That is to say unless if it is against the Catholicism.

It starts with: "The basic hierarchy and theology of the Catholic Church is a recipe for the abuse of power."

And that differs how from other organised religions? They are all made in the same mould and most of the "western" ones are descendants from Jewish religious practices.

Apparently according to the author the born again nuts are OK with their Guns & God approach. Catholic Church has almost identical twin in Orthodox Churches but they seem to be OK also. And so on and so forth.

And yes, all of them have abuses etc. But medias, esepcially those from protestant background countries like US, just love to single out Catholic Church. The old protestant enemy of the old - the evil Papists etc. I can already hear the echos of the fat fallen German monk Martin Luther thumping his version of the bible against Catholics while fornicating, overeating and shrieking for nobility to kill peasant revolters.

In short, organized religion is bringing more harm than good to the world for at least few centuries.

Now, if that was the premise of the article - I would fully agree. As it is it is just another piece aimed against Catholicism while purposefully ignoring the wider issue.

I would suggest to the author to get her head out of her cultural protestant posterior and criticize religions in bulk, in this manner it is nothing but singling out one for the crimes of the many.

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» All religions suck, but... Posted by: s.duplantier
» RE: Useful criticism Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» ???? Posted by: taxidave
An Even Greater Problem Is Mental Rape of The Brain Affecting Far More Catholics Than Sexual Rape
Posted by: tony_opmoc on Jul 4, 2009 4:03 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The vast majority of Catholics are never subjected to sexual abuse by Priests, and most will deny that it even exists - except in a tiny minority of cases.

My father, brother and sister all had nervous breakdowns as a direct result of this mental rape. My father was only cured as a result of ECT. He could no longer remember the sins that he had committed that were going to send him to hell for all eternity.

I personally was subjected to hell fire and damnation by an extremely right wing Catholic Priest from an Early age.

By the age of 7, when I received my first Holy Communion, I was taught that if I touched the Host in my mouth with my finger, I was committing a Mortal sin. The rules on Mortal sins were very clear. Unless you confessed them and were truly sorry, then when you die you will go to hell for all eternity. Even if you confessed them - you would still be subjected to Purgatory for an unspecified length of time - and Purgatory was nearly as bad as Hell.

So at the age of 7, I touched the Host - The Body and Blood of Christ. I immediately realised what I had done - and a sense of Terror overwhelmed me. What I had done was so aweful, that I couldn't confess my sin to anyone - not even my Mum. I didn't want my Mum to realise that I was damned to Hell for all Eternity.

This horror lived with me for years. Despite having committed such an aweful sin, I became an Altar Boy, and was being actively Programmed both by my Parents and Parish Priest to Train as a Roman Catholic Priest. At the age of 10, I was sent to Upholland Priests Training College in Lancashire, England. My father had also been sent to a Priests Training College - Ushaw in Durham. Whilst it took him 6 years to escape, I escaped after 1 day. I simply went home - and told them - I'm not doing this. Whether or not my Father was sexually abused I will never know, but living in an all male environment from the age of 11 to 18, may actually have been the root cause of his most terrible sins that terrorised him virtually all of his life. How could he possibly confess that he had had sex with a Catholic Priest?

I still continued as an Altar Boy, until I reached the age of Puberty, and had completely normal sexual fantasies about girls. This too was a Mortal sin. I merely hinted at it in confession - but the Priest wanted to know all the details. I thought that this was outrageous. I would like to think that I told him all the details of me actually having sex (even though I hadn't), and that it so excited him it brought him to orgasm behind the confessional curtain. But that would probably be an exaggeration.

The reality was at the age of 15 at that moment, I left the Catholic Church forever, on Moral Grounds. I told my Parents and the Rest of My Family (I was the Youngest of 5), that I was never going to Church again.

They were completely horrified.

It was the best decision I ever made. It was like Total Enlightenment, Total Freedom. I had actually escaped the Religious Prison of Control, Fear, Hell and Damnation.

It was Like Touching God.

Tony

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The Catholic Church
Posted by: jhop on Jul 4, 2009 4:33 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Any group that becomes institutionalized falls into the practice of preserving itself - governments, businesses, and yes, religious groups. Condemning hierarchical structures is a relatively recent phenomenon in modern industrial societies. It is a truly progressive stance arising from true democratic thought that should be applied to all structures because it values the contributions of each of the members.

The scandal of child molestations among Catholic clergy is indeed a terrible thing. While statistically speaking, there are no more pedophiles among Catholic clergy than in any other group, the fact that they have publicly chosen to follow religious principles and serve people as trusted caregivers makes it more devastating. The self-protective stance of the leadersip both prolonged and exacerbated the problem.

However, it does not totally obliterate the good that Catholics have done around the world as part of their religious commitment - the liberation theologians and cooperatives in Latin America, Africa and the Phillipines; the education of millions of children worldwide; healthcare; orphanages; food and support of local endeavors by Catholic Charities, and genuine pastoral care by religious and lay people.

While it is fair to criticize any number of stances taken by the leadership and shared by many other conservative religions, in practice and contrary to what Greta insinuates, the average Catholic neither condemns homosexuality nor do they think Catholic doctrinal adherence is the only means of salvation in the world. Thier Catholicism is a cultural tradition that grounds their community identity and ritualizes their belief in God. That's not all bad, Greta.

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» RE: The Catholic Church Posted by: kepstein7777
» RE: The Catholic Church Posted by: astralman
The Roman Empire, 20th Century style
Posted by: littlepitcher on Jul 4, 2009 5:12 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Catholic Church was formed from the remnants of the pagan religious structures of Rome, priests and priestesses trying to hold onto power by moving into the Next Big Thing.

As in any corporation or organization which works with children, the pedophiles moved in and quietly, with solidarity, took over.

The Catholic Church has, over two millenia, proved itself to be a political and not a religious organization, concerned with utilizing confession as a sword to hang over the heads of its members to keep them in line and to keep the guilt-trip payoff money coming in. What's a four-letter word for a Catholic country? P-O-O-R.

As with all of the Middle Eastern religions, they are BULLIES---simply, obviously, bullies and gangsters, threatening both members and non-members with confiscation, ostracism, isolation, burning on earth or in their fictional Hell, or beating with fists or with stones. Their bullying is concentrated on children and women, but ultimately affects all the Church touches.

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Mary O'd
Posted by: O'do on Jul 4, 2009 5:13 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wow, some of you guys are mad. Hey, you're not supposed to be hateful.

I am Catholic. I know, I know I should be worshipping the statues and priests and so on, but it is possible to be Catholic and think.

Our church was started by God using St. Peter as the rock foundation. Read the history, go back to those times, you Catholics that can't take it any longer. I'm not saying you're wrong, I've been there. You can believe and be your own person. The Catholic church has done great things and with thinking, not ranting and raving uncontrollably, you can be the church that does great things. Protest silently with your money, spend it where you know where it's going. Stand behind a priest that is doing the right thing. If your not Catholic you know what to do in your church, OK.

I will be Catholic the rest of my life and I am ashamed of what some of our hierarchy has done, but they can be thrown down quietly and completely. Be involved, be strong, you will find companions. When people like the writer of this article scream at you let it run off and keep working for change. God sees you and loves you.

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» RE: Mary O'd Posted by: gc94112
» RE: Mary O'd Posted by: masthead
» RE: Mary O'd Posted by: u2r1
It's virtually all religions, not just the Catholics
Posted by: Moonray on Jul 4, 2009 5:18 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"It is the predictable result of a religious organization that vests all of its spiritual connection with God, and all of the possibility for salvation and eternal life, in the hands of a relatively few authority figures."

That and other lines in this article describe virtually every religion -- and several totalitarian states as well, which is not coincidental. Religious groups, motorcycle gangs, totalitarian regimes and many other human social units evolved from the tribalism that sustained humanity for thousands of years. We humans are still very primitive animals and our social groupings prove it every day.

While I deplore the failings of the Catholic Church as much as anyone, it would be a mistake to go off on that tangent and neglect the sad truth that virtually all religion -- especially fundamentalism -- is toxic and destructive.

Of course, it's very difficult to convince the general public of this because people tend to confuse the word God with Good. They want to do good, to be good, so they are easy prey for all the deluded and fraudulent folks who say "I am good and I will teach you to be good also, and save you from death in the process."

Some people will always believe in the supernatural and try to impose their beliefs on others. Our brains are just wired that way. Until we find a way to engineer ourselves to be more rational and tolerant, we need to create strong protections against religion in our laws and customs. Job 1 should be ending our governments' ridiculous tax incentives for religion and erecting strong new walls between church and state.

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» RE: virtually every religion Posted by: Sister_Lauren
Organized Religion is Mind Control
Posted by: mollyfurie on Jul 4, 2009 5:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There isn't a shred of evidence for any of it, but if you can get people to stop thinking and questioning (doubt is a sin) in the interests of staying out of an eternal pit of fire, you can get them to do anything.

They will tell you the most intimate details of their lives, give you their money although they are poor and you are rich, they will eat what you want them to eat - and go without eating for days at a time, they will memorize pages of nonsense, they will behave like the inmates of insane asylums- throwing themselves on the floor or babbling incomprehensibly, they will marry and breed according to your rules, they will even allow themselves to be herded into a harem, they will produce more children than they can afford to raise decently, they will go to war, they will mutilate themselves and their children, they will torture those who don't accept their beliefs, and kill even their own children. All because you have conditioned them from an early age to believe the impossible, and to fear independent thought. Even without corporal punishment, or sexual molestation, that is child abuse.

Most religion is also patriarchal, and deeply concerned with the management and distribution of available snatch.

Those who have power, who seek power over others seem to extend their power-hunger into the sexual arena - and who has less power than a child? Of course the priests will molest kids and other vulnerable members of society.

The good that religion does would be infinitely better if not accompanied by this system of lies and mind control. And in fact there are secular charities that manage to do good without forcing religion down the recipients' or victims' throats.

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Blind belief in the edicts of organized religion, in the 21st century, is a mental disorder
Posted by: charles000 on Jul 4, 2009 6:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Blind belief in the edicts of organized religion, in the 21st century, is a mental disorder.

There was a time, many centuries ago, when virtually all observed phenomena could be easily explained to the masses in the context of "divine" intervention or influence.

The vast majority of ordinary citizens were illiterate, and looked to the awe inspiring mythos of "the church" as the answer for all things. Any attempt at independent thought outside the rigidly enforced edicts of the church was discouraged with severe consequences, as was made vividly apparent during the times of the Inquisition.

In later times, the conquest and extermination of entire indigenous populations under the approval "the church" was considered proper, and sanctioned by the weird and hideous distortions of what Christ's original message had once been.

Indeed, if one is to take even a cursory examination of Christ's original message, one will find almost no semblance at all to what "the church" later claims to be its fundamental tenets.

No where in Christ's teachings does one find the suggestion for or the approval of the building of empires, the deployment of armies for conquest, the taxation of citizens under threat of death or "eternal damnation" , and the enforcement of theocratic law over a subjugated population.

Show me any example, anywhere in Christ's teachings, where such edicts can be found,

But OK, those were ancient times, one can argue.

Really? Let's have a quick look at the current world, shall we?

In various regions of the "developing world", where the poverty and misery factor of daily life are often beyond comprehension, the primary catalyst for this level of social disaster is over population.

It is into these hell holes of misery that the organized religions of the world come in, to enforce their bizarre policies of no family planning, no birth control, and no abortions under any circumstances.

The only way these organized religions can remain powerful is by claiming ever larger populations as their congregations, regardless of how miserable the populations in question may become as an artifact of these policies.

These policies have nothing whatever to do with the actual message of Christ when he was alive in this world.

Unfortunately, the problems facing the world today are accelerating, and the disparity between this reality, and many populations which are expanding with reckless abandon under the enforcement of religious dogma is heading toward a global catastrophe of unprecedented severity.

This is the reality that the world is facing today, and most certainly is not a world that Christ had envisioned being created in his name.

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The responding posters are doing Rove's work
Posted by: kenhymes on Jul 4, 2009 6:31 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Religion is a mental disorder, but watching American Idol is normative behavior; anyone who believes in invisible things is disqualified from participation in civil society - unless what they believe in is dark matter; progressivism is incompatible with faith - unless it's MLK, Dorothy Day, the Berrigans, the Quakers, Ghandhi, or any of the millions of unsung boring Jews and Christians and Muslims in the US engaged in mercy and justice work in their communities.

The Catholic Church hierarchy (as distinct from rank and file Catholics) is about power - it is as damaging as all other institutions with too much centralized power. Examples include the corporate media; the Pentagon; Exxon. Compared to these players, most religious institutions, outside of the theocratic states such as Iran, are tiny and lack significant influence over conditions.

Alternet does real damage to progressive politics in the US, and in fact continues the abandoned work of Roger Ailes, Lee Atwater and Karl Rove, when it perpetuates the wedge between believers and non-believers on the left. The blindness to this obvioius fact of American political life almost borders on... no I'm not going to say it, because it's just as bad if I do as when someone else uses mental illness as a cheap insult, in a world that contains actual human beings who are struggling with mental illness.

The Catholic hierarchy is corrupt and abusive, we agree on that. The posters who respond reveal the dark underbelly of the InterLeft - intolerance, violence of rhetoric and intent, a glib ahistorical approach to central human preoccupations.

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List of Mortal Sins (2008) That Will Send Catholics To Hell For All Eternity
Posted by: tony_opmoc on Jul 4, 2009 7:34 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is a mere subset of an extremely long list of sins that was prominently displayed outside of a confessional in a Catholic Church I visted in 2008. I photographed the list. The full list covered 10 A4 pages.

Mortal Sins (Hell For All Eternity)

Adultery. Fornication (intercourse prior to marriage). Masturbation or other impure acts with self. Homosexual acts. Using a contraceptive. Dressing or acting in a manner intended to cause arousal in another (spouses excepted). Allowing another to kiss or touch you in a sexual manner(spouses excepted). Intentionally causing a sexual climax outside of intercourse. Onanism i.e. intentional withdrawl and non-vaginal ejaculation. Flagrant immodesty in dress. Bestiality (sexual acts with animals). Prostitution. Rape. "Selective reduction" of babies in the womb. Types of fertility testing that involve immoral acts. Involvement in or support of human cloning. Willful divorce or desertion. Incest Polygamy or polyandry (many wives/husbands). Cohabitation prior to marriage. Destroying the innocence of another by seducing or introducing them to immorality. Lust in the heart ("if I could I would"). Swinging or wife swapping. Cross-Dressing. Viewing pornography in books, magazines, movies, the internet, etc. Reading sexually explicit materials. Dwelling on impure thoughts or fantasies for the purpose of arousal. Willfully lusting after another.

Bless Me Father, for I have sinned. It is over 40 years since my last confession.

I confess to Fornication (intercourse prior to marriage). Masturbation or other impure acts with self. Using a contraceptive. Dressing or acting in a manner intended to cause arousal in another (spouses excepted). Allowing another to kiss or touch you in a sexual manner(spouses excepted). Intentionally causing a sexual climax outside of intercourse. Onanism i.e. intentional withdrawl and non-vaginal ejaculation. Flagrant immodesty in dress. Cohabitation prior to marriage. Destroying the innocence of another by seducing or introducing them to immorality. Lust in the heart ("if I could I would"). Cross-Dressing. Viewing pornography in books, magazines, movies, the internet, etc. Reading sexually explicit materials. Dwelling on impure thoughts or fantasies for the purpose of arousal. Willfully lusting after another.



My cross-dressing - wearing my girlfriend's knickers - only occurred on a few occasions - primarily to make her laugh. As regards the onanism - well it only happenned on extremely rare occasions - like if it was a one night stand and we didn't have any contraceptives. Personally I would have preferred to ejaculate deep inside her which I do over 99% of the time - but thought I was being a good boy trying not to get her pregnant. Is there any chance I can get a reduction in my purgatory time - or are we all supposed to make as many Babies as possible?

Oh - and Do I Get My Get Out of Hell Free Card?

Please Pray For Me To Become a Better Person. If You do Your Voodoo thing on me and stick needles in an effigy of me and wish hellfire and damnation on me - I will mentally reflect all that evil back at you.

So be God.

Tony

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Politics of Disclosure
Posted by: Arlene on Jul 4, 2009 7:57 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As the author states, there is nothing new about sexual abuse within the organized church. In the early days of the women's movement, women's organizations condemmed the sexual abuse of young nuns and brothers by priests. I believe the reason that the official church has chosen recently to disclose the abuse is that it can no longer afford to pay the hush money and civil settlements brought by enlightened catholics.

The abuse caused by an authoritarian god the father doesn't stay withing the church. It has a ripple effect into the society at large, resulting in the abuse of women and children within the family.

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Deliver us from evil bah humbug
Posted by: Atheistno1 on Jul 4, 2009 8:04 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm glad you are starting to see the real lite about the Catholic faith. One thing I can add to your page Gretta, from my own personal experience, is the abuse is entrenched at the government level & with the use of the media & the multitude of devout followers, can make the public believe what they like. Even use a paedophile cult as a persons Judge, Jury & executioner, as they did to me, in order to take the focus away from the church.

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Don Quixote
Posted by: Don Quixot on Jul 4, 2009 8:03 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Someone says here that “Medias just love to single out the Catholic Church”... “Usual anti-Catholic garbage..." So Catholics are ok and it is only a problem of the meadias? ... the old defence argument of killing the messenger of bad news. It is not the medias, but the Catholic Church who has singled out itself and magnified the problem with the most widespread sexual child abuse and repeated cover up, far above any other major religion. That is how they differ from other religions. In what other MAJOR religion is there so much sex abuse of children? Now it is not the Inquisition torturing non-believers, but the torture of child believers and their families. And the successive Popes, along centuries, did not know anything about all this, as was and is their duty? Who will believe that, except Catholics? Catholic has become a synonym of hypocrisy.

How can you reach “Truth” by denying or hiding “truth”? When the “path to God” includes hiding and denying truths it means there is something wrong with the “path to God” and its followers: path-ological problems. Catholic beliefs are pathological, starting with the obsession of eternal condemnation in hell for all who oppose the church, (by an “infinitely” loving compassionate God), which is an evident tool for mind control.

I personally believe God is loving and compassionate, but the way yoga interprets the Bible, as you may read in “The Second Coming of Jesus The Christ, by Paramahansa Yogananda. See www. http://www.yogananda-srf.org/scoc/index.html), where we have been revealed the hidden meanings of the Bible for the first time, in 2004. Ignorant Church scholars, living 3 to 5 hundred years after Christ, (when 90 % of Christian doctrine was formed), who had scientific knowledge similar to today’s children, could not understand the Bible, as Jesus was in India from 14 to 30 years old, and many things in the Bible can only be understood through Yoga. So they interpreted God made the world in 6 “days”, instead of 6 “stages”, due to ignorance. But other interpretations were not due to innocent ignorance, but to willful adaptation of the Bible sentences to serve the Emperors’ and the Church’s needs. There is no eternal hell. When this belief of eternal hell is planted deep in a child’s mind we have a mentally sick person for life.

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Don Quixote
Posted by: Don Quixot on Jul 4, 2009 8:03 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Someone says here that “Medias just love to single out the Catholic Church”... “Usual anti-Catholic garbage..." So Catholics are ok and it is only a problem of the meadias? ... the old defence argument of killing the messenger of bad news. It is not the medias, but the Catholic Church who has singled out itself and magnified the problem with the most widespread sexual child abuse and repeated cover up, far above any other major religion. That is how they differ from other religions. In what other MAJOR religion is there so much sex abuse of children? Now it is not the Inquisition torturing non-believers, but the torture of child believers and their families. And the successive Popes, along centuries, did not know anything about all this, as was and is their duty? Who will believe that, except Catholics? Catholic has become a synonym of hypocrisy.

How can you reach “Truth” by denying or hiding “truth”? When the “path to God” includes hiding and denying truths it means there is something wrong with the “path to God” and its followers: path-ological problems. Catholic beliefs are pathological, starting with the obsession of eternal condemnation in hell for all who oppose the church, (by an “infinitely” loving compassionate God), which is an evident tool for mind control.

I personally believe God is loving and compassionate, but the way yoga interprets the Bible, as you may read in “The Second Coming of Jesus The Christ, by Paramahansa Yogananda. See www. http://www.yogananda-srf.org/scoc/index.html), where we have been revealed the hidden meanings of the Bible for the first time, in 2004. Ignorant Church scholars, living 3 to 5 hundred years after Christ, (when 90 % of Christian doctrine was formed), who had scientific knowledge similar to today’s children, could not understand the Bible, as Jesus was in India from 14 to 30 years old, and many things in the Bible can only be understood through Yoga. So they interpreted God made the world in 6 “days”, instead of 6 “stages”, due to ignorance. But other interpretations were not due to innocent ignorance, but to willful adaptation of the Bible sentences to serve the Emperors’ and the Church’s needs. There is no eternal hell. When this belief of eternal hell is planted deep in a child’s mind we have a mentally sick person for life.

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Don Quixote
Posted by: Don Quixot on Jul 4, 2009 8:11 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I apologize for the unintended double post and beg AlterNet do delete one. Sorry.

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» RE: Don Quixote Posted by: Ocean tides
Religion is like the lottery
Posted by: JefffromCA on Jul 4, 2009 8:40 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
it is a voluntary tax paid by the stupid.

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Christianity? Really?
Posted by: thisizrob on Jul 4, 2009 9:27 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That was a bit of a laugh. I typed Christianity? and my computer added the next word "Really?" Seems like it was reading my mind.

The Catholic Church makes many claims for itself to the point of supposedly starting with Peter as the first pope. Very interesting. Peter was never the leader of the Christian Church. Lie no 1.

If you don't do what the church tells you then you will burn in hell. Oh yeah? The Bible has nothing to say about that. It does tell us that the living will die but the dead know nothing. If that is the case, how can people who know nothing be in a state of punishment forever if they do not know anything. Seems totally stupid to me and obviously many other thinking people too.

The Roman Catholic Church is the ONLY way of salvation! Well, according to the popes and hierachy anyway. Jesus said "I am the Way, The Truth and the Life, NO man comes to the Father but by ME" but then the RC church took over the then Christian Church in 538 AD. I notice that one has mentioned about all the beliefs of christianity being formulated centuries after Christ. You are correct, the dogma of this so called Christian Church was formulated after at least 100s of years after Christ when it became twisted and then used to hold people in bondage instead of being in the Loving relationship that Christ left for His followers. He said. "They shall know that ye are my disciples if ye have love for one another" and He was not talking about the sexual kind which in the Greek was EROS for the sexual but AGAPE for God's love. A love where truth was the reality and people were to be cared for, not used as was introduced later by the usurping organisation. Jesus also said, "IF ye love Me, Keep my commandments" something that the organisation has done its best to mongrelise in total. They removed the second commandment, cut out and changed the fourth and then split the tenth into two so they still had ten.

I am proud of those who will stand up and say THIS IS WRONG without fear for themselves being supposedly cast into some hell to burn for eternity. By the way, the only time that there will be a burning is when sin and those who defiantly oppose God (sinners) will be obliterated entirely at the end of the world as we know it. There will be NO continual burning as religion would have us believe. It will be over in a matter of a few minutes.

To look at it from a different perspective. If eternal death is the entrance to a different existence where one never dies, Then, eternal life, to be similar, is a life that will never be lived. You can't have it both ways. As far as I know, destruction means what it says, TOTAL and is not a continuing state. Destruction is complete. Only a false religion will present a Loving God as a Tyrant which is what the Catholic church presents Him as. All the good that may be done in the name of error does NOT make the error any less unpardonable. We can praise the good done but there is NO offsetting Good against evil.

All those folks who are so much against the Bible may just be looking at the wrong point, It is religion that has messed it all up, NOT God. The Bible IS His love letter to the world. He doesn't pull any punches but tells it like it has happened, step outside the guidelines and there you see the evidence of the results. The Bible condemns with just as much power as do those who write these statements here on Alternet when they condemn this hypocrisy. So, you are on the side of the Bible but just did not know it.

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Power and Control vs Truth?
Posted by: CaliJim on Jul 4, 2009 9:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why is anybody shocked to find out that the Catholic Church (like every other church and organized religion I'm familiar with, to be fair) would value Power and Control over the Truth? Seems like their little secret was pretty well exposed when they threatened to kill Galileo for challenging their claim that the sun revolved around the earth...at a minimum. They don't have the most stellar track record in the area of truth seeking, but that's to be expected when (again, as with all churches and religions) the growth of your organization and it's power is more important than the actual truth...and you have the power to declare what "truth" is to your believers.

As I've said before, notwithstanding the occasional beneficial act, religion is generally a burden on the human race, creating artificial divisions between us that prevent us from developing to our full potential, while diminishing the overall happiness and quality of life for immense numbers of people...even as it is used as a validating reason for killing and maiming a large percentage of the world's population.

Knee jerk reactions defending the church would seem to have more in common with the practices being condemned, since your responses value the "authority" of the church over the validity of the charges or their effect on the victims. Enough already.

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TRUSTING OTHERS WITH YOUR CHILDREN
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Jul 4, 2009 9:57 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Any organiized activity where children are entrusted to adults other than parents and family is a breeding ground for wierdos. That includes school. Parents have to pay attention. People who know they are being watched are more likely to behave. Think about it: it took the Supreme Court to convince a school that they had no right to have a 13 years old remove her clothing for any reason. This was not a Catholic school and the adults in charge interpreted their actions to be legitimate. Some grownups simply turn wierd around children. The Catholic Church continues to take its lumps and for good reason. But we ignore other situations that put children at risk. The Church of The Latter Day Saints?? Is it really OK for some old geezer to marry (?) a fifteen years old and screw his brains out with her? Why aren't we screaming about that. ANNA

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This faux Pope doesn't help.
Posted by: weathered on Jul 4, 2009 10:05 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
John Paul is spinning in his humble grave.

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The Unholy Book
Posted by: mollyfurie on Jul 4, 2009 11:34 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"All those folks who are so much against the Bible may just be looking at the wrong point, It is religion that has messed it all up, NOT God. The Bible IS His love letter to the world."

Now I find that amazing, because having been raised RC, I was challenged at 19 to read the bible by an Evangelical. So I did, and came to the conclusion that there is no atrocity or crime that can't be justified by the bible. I am pasting in a very few examples of the many. Pay attention to the last, and remember that Lot - who was willing to send his virgin daughters out to be raped, is considered a HOLY man!

"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." (I Samuel 15:2-3)

"Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." ~Moses (Numbers 31:16-18)

"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:15-16)

"And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire." (Leviticus 21:9)

". . . .and they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
 
And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, and said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
 
Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof." (Genesis 19)

Aside from being a textbook for atrocity, the logic of basing one's belief system on a book written thousands of years ago by people who didn't even know that the earth was round, or that it circled the sun, is tortured: "We believe in Jehovah, because it is written in this book, which was written by Jehovah, and we know it was written by Jehovah because it says so. . . . in this book. . . ."

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» RE: The Unholy Book Posted by: thisizrob
phead0
Posted by: phead0 on Jul 4, 2009 12:12 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is clear by the many different posters that Alternet is infiltrated and in effect "bought" it continues ti function very regularly in spite of its permanent begging.

It is clear by the number of many posters who in a short space come to the point and say black is black,etc.

It is clear by the many correspondants who have articles presented, their lack of good grammer and correct writing English - one allows for the American "english" and their inability to put a clear sentence together without twisting their typing tongues. This not insult it is fact.

So how can one really depend upon an ancient text as was previously clearly commented that the ignorance of man and its arrogant rulers adjusted texts to their suiting- one can call this a conspiracy and doubtless there will be many who plunge to the rejection of such a fundemental fact of human nature.

The writer for all her sins at least made clear a specific detail about a specific religion that pretends to a specific integrity but both fails and abuses. There are of course other religions of the past and today that destroy humanity, enslaves it, abuses it and principally for profit. Both power and profit are the leading beliefs under any religious context.

Many comments as a result of this article have shown that despite the general mode, intelligence and clarity are there amongst the true believers, not of God, but of the integrity that should apply in a world that MIGHT worship a God.

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» RE: phead0 Posted by: babs
So, tell me, who is it exactly that has no problems?
Posted by: Sojourner on Jul 4, 2009 1:05 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree that political and organizational structure matters. Democracy is not practiced in the Roman Catholic framework. As a member of a denomination that came out of the left wing of the Protestant Reformation, which practices radical democracy (clergy are elected by the congregation), I admit to an occasional wince of envy whenever I watched how quickly changes can be made when they are ordered by the top of the hierarchy. Such events became obvious because they were so rare.

My bias becomes obvious when I state that a church, even “the” church in a theological sense, is not equivalent to religion. With some exceptions, however, the church is religion for Roman Catholics. It is not a membership organization; it is the body of Christ. From my left wing perspective, insofar as mainline Christianity in all its forms worships in a framework of royalty—kings, rulers, princes, etc.—that also is problematic.

At the same time, vesting religious authority in the autonomy of the individual is not free of dilemmas. The free church often behaves as if its members can believe whatever they want and anyone’s belief is as good as anyone else’s. As a voluntary enterprise, nothing can be done to eliminate that anarchic practice. Education is the only option,

The current age is one where authority is hard to come by for a free religion. Isolation and nihilism are a constant threat. So is it worth it? When you get for your scriptures all the literature of history, it does get hectic but also can be the richest in contingencies.

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My first accomplishment was at the age of 8 when after a
Posted by: abusedbypenguins on Jul 4, 2009 3:52 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
year and a half I had convinced the penguins that in order to brainwash the rest of the class with religious bullshit, they had to get rid of me. After turning 6, I realized that santa, the easter bunny, etc. and religion was all crap. One lie after another about superstitious nonsense. Religion instills fear in children and comfort to old ladies. I was constantly in trouble and yes, I was abused by penguins. From 3rd grade to 12th in public school, I got in trouble only once. I was lucky, unlike others to escape the organization known as pedophiles-r-us. The leaders of this bizarre cult wear dresses and very strange hats. They really get upset if you make fun of their crackers and wine. Just not into mock cannibalism. Catholics aren't anymore or less crazy than muslims. When does a cult morph into a religion? They are all cults of the nuts.

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People abuse
Posted by: willymack on Jul 4, 2009 6:19 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The abuses preachers heap upon humanity aren't limited to children; they beat EVERYBODY up. Silly adults just don't want to acknowlege it because that would mean admitting to being continously bamboozled by moral degenerates.

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The Church: One Huge Contradiction in Terms
Posted by: thornwolf on Jul 5, 2009 3:49 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Premise: God is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving, all-merciful.

Premise: If you sufficiently displease the all-powerful God, you will be consigned to eternal damnation.

This is a complete contradiction in terms and reveals the utter unbelievability of church dogma. Why even investigate further? The whole thing is patently false.

I was raised Catholic. I attended Catholic schools as a kid. I know. I remain grateful for two things, 1) the nuns really taught us reading, writing and arithmetic; and 2) they forced us to learn how to think for ourselves because one simply could not believe the guilt-soaked control-oriented dogma! I left the Church as soon as I was old enough to act on my own account. No regrets about that.

I agree with this article that the structure of the Catholic Church makes it inevitable that abuse will take place. Church figures are human beings, not superheros from another world.

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Catholic Guilt perpetuated by heretics
Posted by: Purple Girl on Jul 5, 2009 6:19 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Most major Religions- not just Catholics- HATE Humanity. Hate Woman because they are 'Temptresses' of men. Men for being 'Weak' and prone to act on their 'carnal' desires. And the embodiement of that 'sin'- Children.
So who do you think these major Religions serve with their Loathing of Humanity doctrines?
Let's be honest if all men adhered to the 'Holy' Ordained adage of resisting the desires of the Flesh (Celibacy)- humanity would go extinct. Who's ultimate goal would that achieve?
Evangelicals like Hagee hold this same perception of Humanity. Only reason he claims to hate the Vatican, and calls it the 'Great Whore' , is purley jealousy of it's longer history of servitude to the 'Fallen One'. Why do you think these Folks revere the symbolism of 'Fire & Brimstone'?

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Why?
Posted by: thisizrob on Jul 5, 2009 8:11 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The socalled Christian Church is nothing like those who were commissioned by Christ to start off His renewed Church. Renewed because all the information given to Moses had all but been lost and had now been infiltrated with so much paganism that it was hardly even recognisable. All the do's and dont's that had been added and there were many hundreds of them. The whole thing was just a burden on the people and now it is just the same. instead o being a loving situation of people for people it is nothing more than just a method of amassing large amounts of money. How do i know if I do not attend these churches? Observation and listening to those who do attend.

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» RE: Why? Posted by: babs
sex
Posted by: sex on Jul 6, 2009 2:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
abuse and the Roman Catholic church
Posted by: Lorraine4 on Jul 6, 2009 1:12 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I write as a clinical social worker with 25 years' experience as a therapist for those hurt by child sexual abuse, and now am ordained in the United Methodist church, serving as a pastor. The question was raised about what makes the Catholic church particularly vulnerable to sexual abuse. I think that the [Roman Catholic]idea that salvation only comes through that Church makes people more vulnerable to its power, and leads that church to feel justified in sacrificing a few kids for the needs of the greater good, that is, the church. also, the celibacy requirement, whether priests are really called to it or not, invites those with confused sexuality to seek ordination. I agree with the writer that it's a recipe for abuse.

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wrong mistake
Posted by: ruruben on Jul 6, 2009 11:38 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
MKV to AVI ,Professionally convert your mkv files to avi format, other popular video and audio format supported

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Ferdyb
Posted by: Ferdyb on Jul 8, 2009 1:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a devout Catholic I often find the vituperation of the Catholic Church quite ununderstandable. In my 66 years of life I have never found a Catholic priest that i didn't like, nor at anytime in my young years been made a pass. I totally condemn any instance of child abuse and the priests that committed these abominations should be sent packing together with the bishops that protected them.Yes, the authoritarian nature of the Church is an element in the way the cover up has been allowed to carry on but the solution is not throw in doubt our Christian beliefs but get more people involved in parish activities and not be afraid of sexual issues.
Closiing ranks is not a solution, the Church comprises everybody and therefore the responsibility of its failures falls on everybody.

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tiffany
Posted by: ekoljos on Jul 18, 2009 10:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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