'I Quit the Evangelical Movement in Disgust': Former Evangelist Fears Right-Wing Lunacy Will Lead to More Murder

Gee, ya know, Hitler never killed a single person with a gun and he never closed the door on a gas chamber. Why he only spoke his "opinion."

And he takes so much heat for all the killing that went on? Why he was the Rush Limbaugh, Michael Savage, Laura Ingrahm of his age! He missed the radio show for stadium "altar calls."

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The headline is misleading. Schaeffer actually left the evangelical movement for the Eastern Orthodox Church, and became a virulent critic of evangelicalism from an even more right-wing position, working to create an Orthodox right through a newspaper called The Christian Activist. Published until 2003 or 2003, The Christian Activist was criticized by many conservatives (and Orthodox) as being too strident, and almost every issue contained an article condemning abortion. Only two years ago Schaeffer said in a published interview his views on abortion were the same as they had always been. This should not be construed as an attack on the author, just an elaboration on his too-brief bio in this article.

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While I agree wholeheartedly with Schaeffer's sentiments, that the religious leaders of the far right need to separate themselves from the extremist rhetoric of the unintelligent, and heavens, even pastor their flock, I doubt this will happen. Just as Bill O'Reilly denied any blame in the murder of the abortion doctor, despite the fact that he actually egged on his listeners with violent word imagery and emotion, so do the Evangelicals distance themselves from any blame.

NLP (Neuro-linguistic practitioners) know all about mind control and word imagery and suggestion.

A thing need not be 'against the law' for it to be wrong. O'Reilly jolly well got away with murder.

T.S. Elliot's remarkable play Murder In The Cathedral, shows the moment when the king (Henry II?) in a mad moment says in the presence of his knights, "Will no one rid me of this priest?"

That was all the king had to say. Beckett was subsequently murdered, posthaste, his blood spilt on the holy alter of the Sanctuary, no less.

Such messages are always tacit. O'Reilly didn't have to say "Hey, you mentally defectives, go murder this man." All he had to do was imply it. He knew that. All the leaders of the Religious Right know that their congregation are borderline.

Scheaffer is asking them to stand up for Christian principles. The leaders do not stand up for the Good because they are not actually Christians. They have created God and Jesus Christ in their own image. They are idolators and politicos.

Power leads inevitably to corruption.

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The author of this excellent piece, Frank Schaeffer, has proven that there is more than enough cause for hope. There is a cure for this Right Wing lunacy. The man merely opened up his eyes. Good for you, Frank!

The people who make their livings promoting this climate of hate and hear - the Rush Limbaugh's, the Sean Hannitys, the Ann Coulters, the Michael Weiners, the Glenn Becks - that crowd - already have enough blood on their hands. When will their thirst be quenched?

On that happy note....

The Real Tragedy of Michael Jackson

Tom Degan
Goshen, NY

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Surprise, surprise. Right-wingers flood our TV and radio airwaves with all sorts of religious nonsense -- including the assertion that even early abortion is murder -- and yet we're surprised when some folks act on these beliefs in a very predictable manner.

No wonder the fundamentalists view themselves as heroes. If you buy into the primitive ideas that form the basis of Christianity and some other religions -- such as that a soul is magically inserted into a fertilized egg at the moment of conception -- then it makes sense to defend these babies against the evildoers who would terminate their lives prematurely. Similarly, if you believe in angels, devils, sin and all the other wacky trappings of religion, it isn't surprising that you would often behave in ways that would most kindly be described as bizarre.

No, the real culprits behind this ugly trend are the religious "moderates" who want to perpetuate religion because it makes them feel better and serves their social needs. Or because it brings them votes on election day. You can't advocate or condone "a little craziness" -- belief in supernatural beings and magical processes with no evidence to substantiate those beliefs -- and then claim to be shocked when some people act predictably based on those same assertions.

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"Right-wing domestic terrorism committed by a few unhinged people who take the crazy talk (and nutty "open-carry" church services) seriously is a test of the patriotism of the so-called mainstream right-wing leaders."

By framing this issue as a matter of "patriotism", the author falls into the ideological trap created by right-wingers, and conservatives of all stipes (democratic & republican). When will liberals get it through their heads that "patriotism" is just another word for nationalism and chauvinism. STOP TURNING THESE ISSUES INTO A CONTEST OF WHO IS MORE PATRIOTOC. REJECT PATRIOTISM ALL TOGETHER!!!

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Right wing bucketmouths like Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh etc., don't care and are never likely to care if others take them at their word and go out to commit murder... they're too busy getting off on their own grossly inflated sense of power and self-righteousness.

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Do they care? Sure they do. They hope that somewhere somehow some crazy fanatics heed the disguised call for "taking our country back" from the evil socialist secular gun hating liberals through violent means. Then they can stand back and say "we never told anyone to be violent".

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...such a specious term. I'm certainly not "anti-immigrant" and am willing to accept those who move to this country LEGALLY and go through the process of becoming naturalized...or, at least, obtaining a green card, paying their taxes, having a valid driver's license and auto insurance, learning to speak English, etc.

My own mother was a LEGAL immigrant. So was one of my great-grandmothers.

What I AM against is illegal aliens sneaking into the US, stealing jobs, driving without licenses or insurance, sucking up "benefits" they're not even entitled to...and, then, DEMANDING rights and priviledges only meant for citizens and DEMANDING they we learn to speak their language.

In a pig's eye!!!

It's time to clamp down on these parasites and to send them back to wherever they came from, rather than offering them the "keys to the kingdom"!

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Here they are...

1. "Illegal Immigrants must be stopped."

2. "Right-wing domestic terrorism committed by a few unhinged people who take the crazy talk (and nutty "open-carry" church services) seriously..."

3. "...but, after all, he [Tiller] murdered 60,000 babies."

4. "O'Reilly didnt have to say 'Hey, all you mentally defectives,[sic] go murder this man'."

5. "Obama is making America less safe."

The odd-numbered statements are directed against various left-of-center people, groups, etc. The even-numbered ones (sweeping generalizations) are directed against people W/psychiatric histories, who are on all parts of the political spectrum and the good-versus-bad spectrum.. (I'll give the author of the above article some credit for talking about "curing" the right-wing "lunacy" instead of suggesting witch hunts against the mentally ill.)

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against the Limbaughs, Hannitys, Coulters, O'Reillys, and Fox News (ANYONE connected with Fox News). I would have only gratitude for anyone who conspired to blow up their stations or get rid of them. I do not understand why they remain on the air, they should all be charged with murder. The people who listen to them are the most loathesome creatures on this planet.

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While I applaud your "awakening" to the devastation that the hateful and discriminatory talk has brought out on the right, my issue with you people is that you fail to recognize that you too are immigrants! Whether your ancestors came into this nation before "quotas" were implemented, or they came from the prisons of Europe, or they were escaping religious persecution - they were not "native" to the nations that were displaced and slaughtered by "Manifest Destiny"!

That you all (the Minutemen & other groups like it) tend to not remember that inconvenient fact in your pursuit of "illegals" is an oxymoron that I cannot understand! That you all refuse to see that the very people that cater to and incite your ignorant beliefs, yet care not one whit for you - as they drive up to their gated Mcmansions is another anathema to thinking people everywhere!

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hanging by a thread; creeping fascism; evidence that Cheney may have allowed 9/11 on purpose, etc., etc.,

But our real problem is a few extremist rightwing kooks???? I don't think so!!!!

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As one of your 6,706,993,152 (July 2008 est. world population) Popes out there, I would be remiss not to comment.

All these wolves in sheeps clothing, who deem to speak for God, seem to forget that judgement is God's alone. They are so damned quick to pass judgement on "God's" enemies. You know what? Unless I hear it from God's mouth, these jerks can go to hell. (Perhaps they already live in their own private hell. Why else would they be so fearful and hateful?)

Just as we will always have "the poor" among us, so too shall we always have the crazed and those of diminished capacity among us as well. Anyone who would manipulate these unfortunates for politics or personal gain is committing a doubly heinous act. God will deal with them fully in the fullness of time.

I wish people would stop being sheep. They do not need a shepherd to guide them to God. The only place you will ever encounter God is in your own heart. He/she does not inhabit any temple, mosque, synagogue, tent, cave, or grove. And hey, if you want to be an atheist, that's cool too...

Peace,
Pope Urban xxiii

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The lunatics are clogging up our political system, such as it is. Before they kill anyone they do alot of damage by diminishing our poltics. They don't concern themselves with laws, wars, the economy, health care or anything that are matters of concern to the Average American. They are nothing more than a version of street gangs that wield an enormous about of clout by frightening people. They stand in the way of progress like brats having a temper tantrum. They do nothing in the interest of the common good. They don't care about anything but themselves. I find their activities to be un-American. They are a constant distraction to the smooth running of things. I believe we all have a right to our beliefs but we can't act in a way that is detrimental to the country and everything it stands for. I don't know how to shut them up but they do get an awful lot of attention. It does indeed encourage them. Thanks, ANNA

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I am a big critic of religion because religion is a gateway to deep psychosis for unstable people. What’s the difference between the Christian Fundamentalists and Muslim Fundamentalists, the answer is nothing. If you look at what there beliefs are, in terms of there twisted sense of morality, there is no difference. Both are opposed to abortion and contraception. Both are opposed to any ideas that challenge their view of how the world works in terms of things like science, literature and art. Both are deeply homophobic and xenophobic. Both feel that women should be subjugated. In deeply religious cultures they’re armed to the teeth and see violence as acceptable for achieving a society that forces their rules on everybody else whether you agree with them or not. There is no difference between religious fundamentalists on either side. You would think they would be the best of friends but instead they hate each other so much. Religious thought is a psychosis plain and simple.

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Expecting these extremists to tone down their rhetoric is a pipe dream. They have no intention of behaving responsibly.

The only thing that will stop these people will be criminal prosecutions.

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We have more homicidal morons per capita than almost any other nation on this earth. All these dummies need is some flatulent fool like limberger, o'liely, or some witch-doctor posing as a christian to set them off.
This sorry situation won't improve if our public education systems continue to be neglected. Ignorance, fear, and violence go hand in hand, and there's plenty of all that to go around here, in the USA.
Like it or not, the rest of the world is watching us and listening to what the morons say. Those watching us are better educated and less violence-prone than us, and are doubtless appalled at our mindless violence.
We're a showcase for what can go wrong in a formerly great nation.

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"The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic. [...] The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent." Schenk v. United States, (1919).

They lie and lie and lie. Why isn't this decision being applied to them?

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RELEASE THE NAZIS AND THE WHITE SUPREMACISTS OUT OF JAIL RIGHT NOW !!

I AM IN FAVOR OF TOTAL FREEDOM OF SPEECH !!

THE US GOVERNMENT IS A DICTATORSHIP: WHAT CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT GIVES THE FBI FOR ARRESTING A PERSON FOR SAYING SOMETHING? THAT'S PURE DICTATORSHIP !!

"The FBI just arrested a well-known white supremacist and the host of an Internet talk show and Web site for saying that three judges should be killed."

I am not against the ultra-right. I am against the US government, the FBI, CIA and the whole monopoly of armed forces for banning freedom of speech.

I believe that Americans are allowed to say what ever the hell they want even wanting to kill somebody if they want. Saying you are going to kill somebody is no proof for killing a person.

What the hell, what the f*ck?

HAS THE US GOVERNMENT POLICE SYSTEM TURNED INTO A PRE-CRIME SYSTEM LIKE TOM CRUISE'S MOVIE "MINORITY REPORTS"

Arresting people for saying any thing is INCONSTITUTIONAL !!

RELEASE THE NAZIS AND WHITE SUPREMACISTS RIGHT NOW !!

.

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Who has been beating the anti-immigrant drum? Who has been calling abortion doctors "murderers"? Who has been saying that Obama will take away our guns? Who is ratcheting up the anti-Obama hysteria?

I don't necessarily buy into the idea that the answer is the same for all of these questions. It does seem likely that it is the GOP that has latched onto the anti-immigrant concept as a wedge issue, though probably one that will backfire on them in the long run. I'd generally place much of the blame for anti-Obama hysteria on the GOP.

However, this notion that Obama will take people's guns away would seem to have a commercial source. I'd guess that this idea comes from the NRA, acting in their role as a propaganda organ of the firearms industry. This mime has sure been a boon for the gun industry.

Incidentally, it would make an interesting study in a few years for some graduate student to see whether this bubble in gun ownership has any correlation with crime or accident statistics.

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I wonder what that marine who I assume would REFUSE to disarm Americans would do if Told to attack a crowd of demonstrators or those on a picket line . I assume that he would have NO problem Obeying those orders
Remember in the early days of Unions it was common for the Governors to use the National Guard against the strikers . Don't forget the Army was used against the Bonus Army encamped on the Mall . I believe MacArthur was in command .

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It is exceedingly simple. These people belived to the point of fact that Armageddon is coming. And yet there is a taint of doubt sub-consciously in that there is not physical proof of prophecy delineated by the major religions to out of Palestine for thousands of years.

So in short: If god will not come to you- You make god come to you, by setting in motion the hideous carnage upon the unbelievers. and mindlessly having faith that you are doing gods will.

The radicalism in this country is Christian based. I don't see Baha'ists in the throng. ANd most who are of the evangelical persuasion are in fact literalists when it comes to the interpretation of the Bible. And when you hear of intelligent design, pure PR Brotha.

If the literalist does not find the burning bush, He or she will simply find one, burn it and call it God. Nihilism knows no religion, race or creed,

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your rational thought crumbles as you realize what a fundamentalist atheist youre being.

Are you autistic? your black and white thinking and insistence on pure logic is quite symptomatic of Asperger's.

Maybe its you who need the treatment.

Or just maybe, you havent talked to one such as I, who was abused by his father with the full blessing of the school and psychiatric systems simply for believing in God. All because he had the same boneheaded insistence on pure logic you do.

Pure logic is a sword without a hilt or handle.

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The uptick in Right-wing violence is as predictable as thunder after lightning. We're seeing a seachange in the American electorate and the far right feel it in their bones. In the 60's and 70's, as the US swung right (the GOP controlled the White House for 20 of the 24 years from 1968-1992) we saw the rise of The Weather Underground, The Black Panthers, The Symbionese Liberation Army, and, I hesitate to add, the Manson Family. (As crazy and racsist as it was, there's no doubt that what Charlie was preaching was a socialist utopia.) Before that, in a basically progressive period (the Dems controlled that White House for 28 of the 36 years between 1932 and 1968), most political violence could be traced to groups like the KKK and offshoots of the John Birch Society like the St. Louis group that arranged the killing of Dr. King. I'm just pointing out that we should not get all holier than thou. Our nuts, their nuts, it's all cyclic and it's all beyond the pale. We're winning right now and the far right wing nuts can't stand it.

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...that these hateful bastard people in the pews of churches religiously every Sunday have not always existed in AmeriKKKa. These hateful, Bible twisting bigots have always been here, protecting what they stole in colonial conquest by the manifest destiny of Divine Providence. They've simply evolved into the contemporary mutant melding of the religious and secular reactionary right. And, Frank Schaffer, as guilty as he may feel for having enjoyed the benefits of his association with that lot, is no more responsible for their current form and presence than a single fan is responsible for Michael Jackson's demise. I'd sooner credit Rupert Murdoch who prints the Bibles and produces the infotainment that grossly misleads these sheep on an hourly basis before I'd move to indict Frank Sperry Schaeffer of this crime.

Schaffer and that entire lot of mislead ill-informed fanatical neo-conniving zealots and fanatics are tools being used in a greater religio-fascist corporacratic ruse. They've all taken the mark of that beast, doing its will with a culturally repressed steadfast mind that unifies them in a cause that is anything but godly. I can't beleive Schaffer has the temerity to think that anything he has personally done for this cause has meant that much to the right wing movement. The truth is Schaffer is seen as more a moderate voice than the ultra-Jesusy Palinesque officer in God's army among most Jesus Campers proclaiming George Dumya to be the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. This guy has a really overinflated sense of self importance to inner courts of right wing institutions of religion that borders on psychotic narcissism.

For the record, though, what's Schaeffer done beyond separate himself from their numbers, like a rat fleeing a sinking ship, now that the shame of Christendom is greater than the true followers of Jesus can ever hope to bear? Where was Schaeffer during the Bush administration when the damage to the real church of believers was suffering its worst and most blasphemous attrocities? No one is really impressed with this rascal's sanctimonious selfrighteousness now that the Church is mocked and derrided from hell to breakfast. We're not moved by his human and civil rights epiphany now, when he could have publicly brought these same allegations, judiciously and expeditiously chastising these deceitful Pharisees for their willful perpetuation of Amerika's religio-fascist bigotry and inhumanity. A public rebuke then would have meant so much more to the overall dioscourse back when war was declared based on lies, back when people of color in a so-called free society were first being punitively profiled for no other reason than an olive complexion. Those real followers of Jesus cried out then that the teachings and practices of the likes of Falwell, Dobson, and Robertson were nowhere near what the Savior Jesus would have ever done. As a matter of fact, everything that Jesus represents is everything that herd of lobotomized idiots HATES, a reality I dare say Schaeffer knew to be true, yet still failed to publicly acknowledge out of nothing but his own fearful cowardice.

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It will be the fault of their own ranks when stringent gun controls are finally enacted. The Left has been plugging away at this for decades with little results. But with the increase in violent attacks by Gun fanatics- even the center right and moderates will begin demanding stronger gun laws.
As the 'End of Dayers' stoke the fires of Armegeddon and inciting events to bring on the Apocalypse- more people will begin to leave the Megachurches and their sociopathic ideologies.
As Pro-Lifers take more lives, more followers will begin to question their adherence to the 10 Commandments, and their calim to being "Pro Life'.
The fanatical Right wing is beginning to expose it's hypocracy and it's Heresy in it's hyterical attempt to maintain the staus quo of the last few decades.
They can't live up to their claims, they can't follow their doctrines, and they can't stop proving the Left has been Right about them all along.
We may not be in the streets protesting the Theocracy which has undermined this Country since the emergence of the 'Moral Majority' in the '80's, But just like the Religious leaders of Iran, they brought this on themselves.
Americans see the correlation of 'Guns and God' which not only inspires the violence by Islamic radicals, but also our so called 'Christian' radicals. Even though they follow and worship different Idols/'sacred Cows' and their symbols- their doctrines and their methods are exactly the same.

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YOU ARE ALL A BUNCH OF F*CKING SLAVES !!

ENSLAVED BY THE US GOVERNMENT, BY CIA, BY FBI, WHO CAN SILENCE YOU AND YOU ARE ALL SCARED LIKE LITTLE WIMPS AND SISSIES YOU ARE !!

NO WONDER THIS COUNTRY WILL NEVER HAVE A SOCIALIST SYSTEM !!

.

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Evangelicals constantly tell us a few things that make absolutely no sense whatsoever.

1. Their god is all powerful and knows everything.
2. We have free will that overrides their god.
3. They also tell us we're powerless in the face of god's awesome powers and that we should fear 'him'.

Really? Then why is it so easy for YOU PEOPLE to override his so-called powers.

Here's the secret answer: your god doesn't exist anywhere except in your minds.

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The ugly head of religion rears it's distorted face again. Throughout history, this ancient social control construct has caused more death and destruction than any other single mindset or disease. Laws are frequently changed by religionists to force society to conform to their disease. These religious garbage, Minutemen are as common as roaches. They have been throughout history. They go by different names, and are usually the first to tell you that their particular form of god worship isn't religion. The fact remains, that ALL OF THEM are in the same group. Some haven't reached the point of crossing the line to kill or maim other people. It's just a matter of time. Especially when the current social order and the economy are in such bad shape. These rodents immediately blame people of color or language, or from different countries for their own problems and crimes committed by the perverse government WE have. Not those other people, but the US Government! But none the less, US Government, or what any other government, these people have been in all parts of the world throughout history. Sadly, people still need someone to run to when their very human kind makes such serious gaffs as do we as individuals and collectively through our governments at all levels. On the day god's rotting corpse is finally buried with all the seperatist, and hate mongering in his "holy books, only then will people begin to take responsibility for their own lives good, or bad. Perhaps then, governments will not be the engines of destruction and perversion they are today.

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Our guy Frank seems confused. He's dumped gun-rights advocates, racists, anti-immigration folks, et al into a large vat and seems to have pasted "evangelical" on the whole mess.

This, um, opinion piece (and many subsequent posts) are exemplary of the sort of willful ignorance about things religious that is an AlterNet specialty.

These stupidly incoherent mutterings are more responsible for marginalizing the Left than anything Rush and Co. could attempt to do.

Congrats.

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As one whose own church has been the victim of a homicidal attack by a right-wing gunman proclaiming his intention to “kill liberals” - he wounded eight, killing two - I resent this attempt to twist such tragedies into an attack on those who oppose the insanity of open borders. I am neither anti-immigrant nor right-wing; I am a staunch liberal who deplores the anti labor, modern “bracero” practices that are supported by neo-conservatives, corporations, the US Chamber of Commerce, and a number of my fellow liberals. I understand why employers would be eager to drive down wages to third world levels; I”ve never quite understood why liberals would join them, other than they’re afraid people will think badly of them otherwise.

You imply that anyone who thinks our country should limit immigration (as any country with responsible leadership does) would applaud the murder of, among others, immigrant children. It’s bad enough to endure ad hominem attacks of “racist;” now we are to be labeled child murderers by proxy.

In fact, one of the major groups opposing uncontrolled immigration, NumbersUSA, has ALWAYS had a policy against attacking immigrants physically or verbally. From their site’s long-standing page, “No to Immigrant Bashing":

“Nothing about this website should be construed as advocating hostile actions or feelings toward immigrant Americans; illegal aliens deserve humane treatment even as they are detected, detained and deported. Unfortunately, to write about problems of immigration is to risk seeming to attack immigrants themselves. Even worse is the risk of inadvertently encouraging somebody else to show hostility toward the foreign-born as a group.“

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