COMMENTS: 60
Students Aren't Customers; Education Is Not a Commodity
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Hardly a week goes by without dire headlines about the failure of the American education system. Our students don't perform well in math and science. The high-school dropout rate is too high. Minority students are falling behind. Teachers are depicted as either overpaid drones protected by tenure or underpaid saints at the mercy of deskbound administrators and pushy parents.
Unfortunately, all such headlines collectively fail to address a fundamental question: What is education for? At so many of today's so-called institutions of higher learning, students are offered a straightforward answer: For a better job, higher salary, more marketable skills, and more impressive credentials. All the more so in today's collapsing job market.
Based on a decidedly non-bohemian life -- 20 years' service in the military and 10 years teaching at the college level -- I'm convinced that American education, even in the worst of times, even recognizing the desperate need of most college students to land jobs, is far too utilitarian, vocational, and narrow. It's simply not enough to prepare students for a job: We need to prepare them for life, while challenging them to think beyond the confines of their often parochial and provincial upbringings. (As a child of the working class from a provincial background, I speak from experience.)
And here's one compelling lesson all of us, students and teachers alike, need to relearn constantly: If you view education in purely instrumental terms as a way to a higher-paying job -- if it's merely a mechanism for mass customization within a marketplace of ephemeral consumer goods -- you've effectively given a free pass to the prevailing machinery of power and those who run it.
Three Myths of Higher Ed
Three myths serve to restrict our education to the narrowly utilitarian and practical. The first, particularly pervasive among conservative-minded critics, is that our system of higher education is way too liberal, as well as thoroughly dominated by anti-free-market radicals and refugee Marxists from the 1960s who, like so many Ward Churchills, are indoctrinating our youth in how to hate America.
Nonsense.
Today's college students are being indoctrinated in the idea that they need to earn "degrees that work" (the official motto of the technically-oriented college where I teach). They're being taught to measure their self-worth by their post-college paycheck. They're being urged to be lifelong learners, not because learning is transformative or even enjoyable, but because to "keep current" is to "stay competitive in the global marketplace." (Never mind that keeping current is hardly a guarantee that your job won't be outsourced to the lowest bidder.)
And here's a second, more pervasive myth from the world of technology: technical skills are the key to success as well as life itself, and those who find themselves on the wrong side of the digital divide are doomed to lives of misery. From this it necessarily follows that computers are a panacea, that putting the right technology into the classroom and into the hands of students and faculty solves all problems. The keys to success, in other words, are interactive SMART boards, not smart teachers interacting with curious students. Instead, canned lessons are offered with PowerPoint efficiency, and students respond robotically, trying to copy everything on the slides, or clamoring for all presentations to be posted on the local server.
One "bonus" from this approach is that colleges can more easily measure (or "assess," as they like to say) how many networked classrooms they have, how many on-line classes they teach, even how much money their professors bring in for their institutions. With these and similar metrics in hand, parents and students can be recruited or retained with authoritative-looking data: job placement rates, average starting salaries of graduates, even alumni satisfaction rates (usually best measured when the football team is winning).
A third pervasive myth -- one that's found its way from the military and business worlds into higher education -- is: If it's not quantifiable, it's not important. With this mindset, the old-fashioned idea that education is about molding character, forming a moral and ethical identity, or even becoming a more self-aware person, heads down the drain. After all, how could you quantify such elusive traits as assessable goals, or showcase such non-measurements in the glossy marketing brochures, glowing press releases, and gushing DVDs that compete to entice prospective students and their anxiety-ridden parents to hand over ever larger sums of money to ensure a lucrative future?
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Posted by: tony_opmoc on Jun 2, 2009 2:55 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think the educational system 30-50 years ago was of a much broader, yet higher quality than it is now.
But its the generation that received its education then, that are responsible for the complete mess our society is in now.
"Don't know much about history? Go ahead and authorize waterboarding, even though the U.S. prosecuted it as a war crime after World War II."
Go ahead and ask Cheney what he was doing instead of attending his history class - or more to the point - ask the System how it ever managed to appoint such a monster to such a powerful position in the first place.
Then ask the System why it hasn't arrested him and put him on Trial.
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» RE: Torture, Recession and Wars Heve Nothing To Do With Our Current Educational System
Posted by: votingvet
» RE: Torture, Recession and Wars Heve Nothing To Do With Our Current Educational System
Posted by: willymack
» RE: Torture, Recession and Wars Have Nothing To Do With Our Current Educational System
Posted by: blitzmesser
» RE: Torture, Recession and Wars Heve Nothing To Do With Our Current Educational System
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» READING THOMAS PYNCHON :) Requires History and Calculus
Posted by: citizen chump
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Jun 2, 2009 5:07 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Therefore, kids who are willing to stick with it until they've mastered calculus, trig, the sciences, etc. and can apply that knowledge to keeping your butt suspended above the gorge below will command superior salaries compared to folks who serve a niche, all other things being equal.
"Outside the box" thinking, in many cases, is just another way of saying that you can't fit your head around a particular concept, so you make something up. Less than 1%* of the time, that might create something better; the other 99.9% of the time, Pythagoras has the right of it.
*Sixty percent of statistics are made up.
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» Good Engineering is Useless without ethics/ Trained professional Labor
Posted by: citizen chump
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Posted by: alexandra_hamilton on Jun 2, 2009 5:13 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They are weeded out either directly by denying them entry or during exams, where results are statistically skewed, some cronies are fed the right answers beforehand,etc.
Higher education is as corrupt, as the rest of the economy it serves.
Professors want to feel important and elated in their ivory tower echo-chamber, so they surround themselves by people who think alike.
BigCorps want people who are either bright but clueless - they serve as useful idiots - or people who are scrupulous enough to play along even if they have seen behind the veil of respectability.
What do those people actually learn that is of value in life? Nothing.
However, they learn obedience and to keept their mouths shut and how to avoid to pose or answer the real questions.
In short, they learn to be servants of power.
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» RE: Higher Education is an entry ticket into the elite
Posted by: apushpa
» In my view your perspective is correct, Alexandra.
Posted by: Centavo
» RE: Servants of Power or Tools for the Elite?
Posted by: kettleblack
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Posted by: apushpa on Jun 2, 2009 5:23 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Public/government schools worldwide that often have good infrastructure but demoralized students and poorly committed staff have furthered the privatization and ‘corporatization’ of education. "Education is an industry which has to earn for itself" said the chairperson of the board of trustees of one of India's leading undergraduate science and technology institutes/schools where I studied (and fortunately acquired not just an engineering degree but an education but I’m certain that some of my friends did just the former!). Unsurprisingly, he was also a scion of one of India's oldest and largest business families.
I shockingly learned in the late 90's that southern India's largest state takes prides in its corporate colleges which mass produce human robots that often ace science and math aptitude tests and sometimes college courses in these subjects. But these students' communication skills and fundamental concepts are often poor. This disease has spread to other places and also deepened the divide between those that can afford the time and money for higher studies and those that can't, denying very capable students from low income families a basic right. Intervention and action by various stakeholders (government, its representatives and partners, media, non-profits, students, teachers parents and other concerned citizens) has achieved precious little.
So, let us continue the campaign for an affordable, accessible, holistic and inclusive education system everywhere that enlightens the minds and touches the hearts of human beings who will emerge as responsible and respectful global citizens.
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Posted by: daw13 on Jun 2, 2009 5:41 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Fairly decent education for the wealthy
2. Training of sorts for other white people
3. Day care for un-wealthy minorities
What we call education constitutes the major form of institutionalized racism in the United States -- the primary mechanism of abondonment and disenfrachisement. What this article deplores in the inadequacy of 2 above. And about that he's not entirely off base.
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Posted by: grindermonkey on Jun 2, 2009 5:41 AM
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» RE: As a child from a parochial background
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: drmflorida on Jun 2, 2009 6:06 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have a daughter, and while she is very young I have already started thinking about college for her. I will encourage her to come intern with me to achieve technical skills that will assure her a career if she needs it, but allow her to reserve college for learning about art, philosophy, history, and all of the other truly important stuff.
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» Gadzooks. You've hit the nail on the head.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
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Posted by: FLYING DOOFUS on Jun 2, 2009 6:23 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Some of the most "liberal" schools are the most expensive !!
Posted by: John More
» Are you pretending to be an idiot or are you the genuine article?
Posted by: rancespergl
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Posted by: rickiey on Jun 2, 2009 7:06 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The purpose of education is to educate, not to indoctrinate.
You are confusing the intention of teaching "how to think" with "what to think".
I remember when education was about teaching "moral values". It was the Christian church that was behind it. We need to avoid that sort of thing.
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» RE: This sentence, I find offensive:
Posted by: Gregsdiary
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Jun 2, 2009 7:37 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: jdub on Jun 2, 2009 7:44 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I retired after teaching history for 39 years, and I agree completely that the entire education system, from secondary school through college has been gradually hijacked by the "get-an-education-so-you-can-get-a-better-job" mentality. Don't take humanities or social sciences seriously ... they are requirements to get out of the way. Don't learn to write, speak clearly, our think. Just learn some technical "skills".
Well modern education in this nation is a crock and everyone who buys into it is shorting themselves and everyone else immeasurably.
I hope someone will listen to Astore, but I suspect he's howling into the wind of ignorance.
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Posted by: Cybershaman on Jun 2, 2009 7:51 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The basic business model is take the customer for all you can while they're in the store, because you may never see them again. Of course, treating a customer like that will insure you never see them again, but that is also beyond the mindsets ability to understand. What you get is a student who knows they are being taken advantage of and can't wait to get the 'college experience' behind them and get on with the task of making money to pay for all that outrageous tuition. They will have no 'fraternal' feelings for their alma mater. There will be no scholarships or trust funds coming from these alumni who will point to their behinds after graduation and say 'That's the last you will see of me!" on the way out as the administration tells them not to let the door hit them in it on the way.
Then the university then will have to depend on a telemarketing push to pressure and annoy alumni into giving. Some will be successful at this type of fundraising with new alumni, but most will only alienate their alumni further.
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Posted by: John H on Jun 2, 2009 8:12 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are some myths about higher education alright.
Myth #1: Higher education is a privilege.
I can't tell you how many times I heard this, both as un undergrad and a grad student. If you don't have to pay the outrageous fees to an already over priced 'education' then maybe it's a privilege, but shouldn't any civilized society educate ALL of its populace without billing them? If you have to foot the bill then its a business transaction. Too many young people are fooled by this rhetoric.
Myth #2: Educators are there for the students.
Most instructors are there soley for themselves. They are too busy working on a book or writing a paper that will convince others to see things THEIR way to bother listening and helping their students.
Myth #3: Higher education makes you a more well rounded person.
What it really does is indoctrinate you. That's helpful when you need to bullshit your way through a job interview because you actually learned nothing in your many years of learning how to say the right thing so you could move to the next 'stage'.
You know what makes you a more well rounded person? Giving a shit about the people around you. Doing something that doesn't advance YOU in anyway but makes the world a better place.
Realities of a higher education.
Students are customers. Thats right. Universities and colleges ARE businesses. I went to school to learn HOW to be an architect. You know. What does an architect really do day to day and how do they do it. That kind of vocational training that is looked down upon because it is too provincial. You know what I learned? How to say the right thing. Thats it...how to say the right thing.
I work with a lot of vocationally trained pleebs, like electricians, plumbers, construction managers, etc. And you know what? They actually know what the hell they are talking about. They not only have real skills that can be 'quantified', but they contribute to society by providing things that people actually need. One other thing to chew on. They all make more money than I do. Starting to get the picture?
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Posted by: RegK on Jun 2, 2009 9:22 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Most of the negative comments people have posted here are about things the writer did NOT say in this piece. Let's discuss what he DID say! For him to have covered all those topics he would have had to write a book on education, and maybe he should.
Today's students, to paraphrase Wilde (I think?) know the price of everything and the value of nothing. The intangibles and imponderables escape them; too many of them are brainwashed utilitarian drones--including, perhaps especially, the honors (elite/rich/often snobbish) students at my university. Mark the argument AGAINST torture that many liberals use: we shouldn't torture because it doesn't work by producing reliable information the effects of which can be measured. NO! We shouldn't torture because it is WRONG! Ideas of right and wrong and all things in between are too abstract for the way we are training young people to 'think', that is, to value only what can be measured.
I do think that bringing back the draft would wake these kids up...then they would talk about something besides parking spaces and cafeteria food!
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» RE: This is brilliant!!!
Posted by: John H
» RE: This is brilliant!!!
Posted by: willymack
» RE: Thank you for saying this.
Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: This is brilliant!!!
Posted by: Gregsdiary
» RE: This is brilliant!!!
Posted by: John H
» RE: This is brilliant!!!
Posted by: Gregsdiary
» RE: This is brilliant!!!
Posted by: John H
» RE: This is brilliant!!!
Posted by: Gregsdiary
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Posted by: jaredh on Jun 2, 2009 10:00 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This has nothing to do with politics. There is a separate market for top-flight students with multiple interests. It is quite common to find top physicists who are excellent musicians, doctors who are poets or writers, engineers who paint. But people with multiple talents are rare and they go to MIT or Princeton or Carnegie Mellon or some such and they don't go to the Pennsylvania School of Technology. (and its not about money: top flight engineering schools kill each other to get qualified minority candidates).
The author is describing a glorified trade school, not a university. We should not expect it to do much other than produce narrowly competent technicians. There are plenty of things wrong with elite schools as well, but they do offer broader opportunities to those who want to take them, and will force technical students to take non-Mickey Mouse liberal arts courses and so on. They simply are serving a different market for students.
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» RE: There are Different Markets for Education
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: willymack on Jun 2, 2009 11:03 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. The equating of anti-capitalism as anti-American. How would we know if something other than capitalism would be better for us all if other ideas weren't presented in a school of higher learning? You could always go to Bonehead U, you know, jokes like oral roberts, or that funhouse run by pat roberts, if you want to "graduate" as a chucklehead.
2. Education not quantifiable? What value can be put on the minds of Plato or Einstein if something concrete doesn't ensue?
3.Do we or do we not have the right to question authority? Do we or do we not have the right and the obligation to subject the actions of our elected officials to the closest scrutiny and most rigid moral and ethical standards?
4. Education vs indoctrination? Being dragged, kicking and screaming to a church is one form of indoctrination. This is quite different than gladly and freely choosing to attend a good college for the purpose of benefitting from the thoughts and philosophies of some of the greatest thinkers in history, and the positive change and refinement a good education provides. Colleges ideally, don't indoctrinate anyone. They merely teach a course of study and leave it to the students to do what they will with it.
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» RE: A few thoughts
Posted by: davewuxi
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Posted by: Jaffe on Jun 2, 2009 11:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
learning--especially in the Arts, Humanities and Social Sciences--was not attached to the hip of instrumentality, the "market," earning big salaries.
True learning (the argument went) has about it a disinterest (not uninterest)--it has to do with broadening frames of reference, learning, without condescension, how other humans live through the study of languages, history, art, and literature; and learning as much as one could about life itself, both animate and inanimate.
Multiversities are now the rule. Public universities are underfunded and thus justify their alliances with Microsoft, Starbucks, the Pentagon, etc.
Private universities generally don't bother to justify their alliances.
Rather than educators, university presidents tend to come from the business sector; MBA administrators earn three times the salary of Ph.D faculty.
Seductive "high" technology is of course the great facilitator. Younger university students were born into it and cannot imagine not looking at a screen to "see" the world.
Faculty are, in the US, often allied with the counterculture--pot-smoking anarchists who delegate their responsibilities to graduate students. And though faculty are supposed to "produce" writings through research, at the same time they are to be held "accountable" and remain in their offices eight hours a day, five days a week.
Although anti-intellectuality has a long history in the US, the disease is metastasizing to other "developed" countries. In Sarkozy's France, the universities have been on strike for months.
US university union responses, on the other hand, are weak, mostly unconnected with the working class.
Compare the affiliation with workers among rebel students and faculty in '68 France with the ongoing dissension between rebel students and workers in the US.
What can be done? For starters, university politics cannot be separated from global politics. "Political correctness," which was tacitly condoned by universities, segregated ethical dissenters.
We must think and work collectively.
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Posted by: Gregsdiary on Jun 2, 2009 11:18 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That quote goes to the heart at what's really being taught--and fought over.
The freedom to determine human worth from within ourselves is the very essence of human freedom. And discovering our human equality is both the means and the ends of that freedom.
But freedom dosn't come free in a world that also determines self-worth based not on principle but on self-interest. A world where human worth is externally defined by the power of kings and markets.
So there's a great struggle over who gets to define human worth.
It's an ancient and recurring struggle as old as Cain and Abel and as American as the Declaration.
At stake is the determination of our relation to power and our relation to each other:
Do we we accept the perogatives of unfettered power or do we challenge power based on principle?
Are we a society connected by the self-interest of obeying the profit motive or the power of kings or are we connected to each other by the principle of equality?
The answers to those questions determines our human freedom. Or the lack of it.
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Posted by: nancorbett on Jun 2, 2009 11:18 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I work in high tech. In the last few jobs I've held, I was the only one on my team with a college degree. My field is secure, challenging and pays well. And I didn't learn it in school.
I don't think anything will change the way education is perceived in American culture. It's just seen as a hoop to jump through to get to monetary success. But that doesn't mean that El Dorado isn't hiding in there for those who are into treasure hunting.
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Posted by: DaBear on Jun 2, 2009 11:49 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just wanted to know all about how things work, how people operate, why this or that happened, what was the real story, or even better, all those other stories that the boss-man didn't want me to know... I wanted to learn how to communicate an idea to people who spoke other languages, or were from other cultures than my own, how to examine a piece of art and talk about it, hell, how to make the damnable piece of art so others could talk about it.
To me, that's the whole point of an education: (social capital) to know stuff.
Along the way I also learned how to figure things out, make a hypothesis and test it, how to get up the guts to ask a girl out, how to NOT bogart the weed and other useful skills (the first time--the second crack I had to learn how to beg borrow and steal without it looking like it).
I think the author does quite well at identifying the age-old problem with higher eddicashun and those three damned myths. And yeah, because it cost me a place to live and I'm still in debt for the last stint (so I could earn that piece of paper that means nothing to at least 583 potential employers since graduating at age 42... mainly because I was 42 and now am even older... but to me that paper means the world. I finished a focused discipline, an avenue of concentrated study, after having done all the other fun-and-just-as-important multi-disciplinary stuff I needed to know about) I get the commentors that bitch about the consumer aspect being true.
The reality is, higher education shouldn't economically hamstring a person and it shouldn't have to only serve some owning-class prick's sense of pragmatic purpose or the classist bullshit savant's need for get-a-degree-so-you-can-move-up-in-life. But that's the system the owning class chose for all of us. It's wrong. They're wrong. We need to change it.
Education (on every level) for anyone who wants it, pay a fair share and yeah, sorry, you rich people suck it up and pay more-- to those who have been given much, much more is demanded, deal with it--and that education should be broad enough to make you wise to some cracker-massa's bullshit, important enough for its own sake, and have a narrow focused component so you come out the other end feeling like you finished something and can move on to other things.
For that to happen, the owning class will need to be cut down a few pegs. Get busy.
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» nice
Posted by: Drclaw
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Posted by: Spiritgirl on Jun 2, 2009 11:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This has happened! There was a time when education was broader, but unfortunately both the number crunchers and "the free-market" ideologues prevailed, much to the detriment of society as a whole! From the time our children enter elementary school they are taught to conform, and graze passively - everything in society teaches that that is what they must do. There is no such animal as independent thinking and analysis!
For proof - let us look at the lead up to Iraq, those that were trying to warn us against such imperialism were labeled spine-less, America hating, and abetting "the terrorists" - the really sad part is that the very people that started this dodged VietNam! Even now Chaney, Bush, Rumsfeld and the rest should at least be answering for their collective crimes against humanity - yet they are not! The fact that a Manchurian candidate Bush was even elected was really the farce upon this nation!
The GOP bring out the "family values" phrase when they want to stir up "faux controversy" but the people answering the call - are the very people that are responding viscerally without really analyzing what's going on! The corporate oligarchy and their minions know exactly what they are doing, the deck is always stacked against the "regular Joe"! It is time for all Americans to realize this, and work together to take our nation back from the corporate oligarchy!
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Posted by: raginghormones on Jun 2, 2009 1:47 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Because these are the thinkers who come up with new ideas. Without new ideas and perspectives, the society will just run out of steam.
Look at the totalitarian societies of today and in the past. They did not and do NOT arrest the chemists, engineers, business majors, the IT experts. No! The ones they haul away in the middle of the night are the philosphers, the authors, the poets, the Liberal Arts majors. Because these are the people who have IDEAS, and the training to come up with IDEAS. And that makes them DANGEROUS!
Witness the following sceanrio:
you call together three highly trained college educated persons--an MBA, a person with an Information Technology Degree, and a person who has a degree in History and/or Social Studies.
You put to them the question: why is there all this terrorist hostility to the United States in the Muslim world?
The MBA: "I haven't the foggiest notion".
The IT guy: "Beats me. Maybe they need to upgrade their software or something?"
The Historian: "Well, it's because of...(launches into a thorough dissertation on the history and social culture of the Middle East, and the role countries had in cynically exploiting the people of that region).
So I ask you---which person is the more useful?
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» RE: Society needs THINKERS--not just "technical" people
Posted by: tony_opmoc
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Posted by: allen1249 on Jun 2, 2009 3:21 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How many clubs and activities can a kid be involved in when his teenage years consist of school to work to babysitting to bed?
How many inner-city kids have 50$ an hour tutor for test prep and writing help.
How many times can they afford to take the same entrance exams multiple times.
How many poor kids can spend 6 years in college retaking classes they just cant pass? (around the third time you take the same class with the same tests and reading, it does get a bit easier to pass.)
If the system of higher education was based on any sort of intellectual or social merit, statistically you would see a much smaller gap between parents wealth and college graduation rates.
Now add this to a competitive job market that demands a degree for entry-level jobs, the system starts to become a lovely pin-wheel. (or a Farris wheel its up to you) It's quite a lovely cycle of keeping money and power under control.
Its become such a perversion of the very ideals the so strongly proclaim to promote, that the degree might as well been purchased at a diploma mill. (You could also make your own, then you can get a degree in whatever you'd like!)
its flying a helicopter to the top of a mountain.Once you're at the top, take a couple pictures. Remember, it doesn't matter how you got to the top, only that you made it there.(and can prove it!)
before i get all digressive I do think that for specific careers, some type of formal training is necessary. Doctors, engineers, applied sciences, and others do need to acquire practice and knowledge in their field. With these jobs a system needs to be in place to acknowledge that a person has been trained for their occupation.
Yes college does this, but so does getting a drivers license from the state. Drivers ed teachers should really start a 4 year 70,000 drivers ed program. Lives are in their hands every time they take the wheel. We need to make sure that they get a good 4 years of experience!
(Am I still writing this...?
Just skip over some paragraphs if its too long,there's sooo many words here. Its not like anything in here is revolutionary, just the result of a long train ride without a drink cart.)
ok kids, time to wrap this up.
The current job market has been flooded with college graduates with diplomas hung on their wall and their ipods on their belts and their etchasketch (is that really how you spell it? the word looks hideous.) in their briefcase , or whatever the hip new trend is this week.
If higher education creates more knowledgeable and skilled citizens, with some of the highest enrollment and graduation rates, shouldn't we have noticed by now? Shouldn't things have been getting better and better each year?
Isn't college the place where questions like these should be addressed?
If you're just looking to go to college for a good job, just bribe some politician or HR person, a good 50,000$ should do it. You'll also end up less in debt, and have made a new friend!
and so on and such.
the end
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Posted by: rational_moderate on Jun 2, 2009 5:39 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A lot of comments express the biased (and incorrect) view that the social sciences are the only path to critical thinking about our place in the world.
While it's true that social sciences can really enrich one's understanding of these things, I think the sciences (especially biology) also contribute to this understanding.
Some posters complain that many people just take social science classes because they're forced to, just to get them out of the way, and that's certainly true. But it's also true of science classes for these so-called liberal arts "thinkers". The difference is that whereas everyone takes the same introductory social science classes, the "hard" sciences are often segregated into classes for majors and dramatically watered-down classes for non-science people. Usually these classes are a joke in comparison, often evidenced by their names or nicknames ("physics for poets", "rocks for jocks", etc.). Students generally can't fulfill their social science requirements with classes like "Sociology for science nerds" or "History for football players". So ironically, it's sometimes the sociology majors that have the less broad education, even while they have the smug attitude that they're the enlightened thinkers.
As for being a good world citizen, I feel that the appalling level of understanding of ecology, etc. might pose a greater threat than ignorance of history and sociology.
Also, given that a majority of Americans still reject the theory of evolution, despite absolutely overwhelming evidence, I'd like to see more scientific literacy.
Another point is that the sciences are often harder to learn on your own than the social sciences. A good read of Howard Zinn's People's History of the US can be a real mind-opener, but any literate person can read that book without any special background. On the other hand, some scientific concepts are hard to learn on your own from a book, especially when labs are such an important part of the learning process.
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Posted by: rational_moderate on Jun 2, 2009 5:58 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think in the latter half of the 20th century, the social sciences swung WAY too far in the direction of emphasizing "nurture" over "nature" in that classic puzzle.
Evolutionary biology and psycho-biology can provide an often missing perspective in understanding almost any aspect of society -- we are the manifestation of biology, after all.
The main instigator for my response was the post by "raginghormones", so I'll address the question:
"Why is there all this terrorist hostility to the United States in the Muslim world?"
I certainly want to hear the historian's point of view. But that's just one tool of understanding.
How many people could explain how the selfish gene hypothesis relates to fighting between different ethnicities?
How about the psycho-biological roots of extreme religious beliefs?
How many people could adequately address how this relates to the problem of population overshoot? I would say that less than 1% of the American people actually understands ecology and issues of sustainability and are technically adept enough to understand why deep ecologists say the sustainable world population is between 0.5 and 2 billion.
So, the historian might have the best short-term answer to the problems while still being clueless about the big picture long-term issues.
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» RE: Understanding social conflicts with biology
Posted by: Jaffe
» RE: Understanding social conflicts with biology
Posted by: rational_moderate
» RE: Understanding social conflicts with biology
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Posted by: Bosan on Jun 2, 2009 8:56 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Rather than whine about the effects of greed and academic marketing, we need to figure out how to convince the public that business leaders actually want creative graduates who are able to apply the critical thinking skills acquired by a well-rounded, liberal education. These kinds of people will rise to the top of their fields.
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» RE: sounds like Investment Bankers
Posted by: kettleblack
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Posted by: dissentisgood on Jun 2, 2009 9:36 PM
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Posted by: HSencillo on Jun 3, 2009 10:16 PM
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Been there, and done that. It got me fired.
I wish him luck keeping his job.
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Posted by: victor_whou on Jun 5, 2009 1:57 AM
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Posted by: blondesprite on Jun 7, 2009 6:37 AM
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http://vodpod.com/watch/1559877-some-tom-waits
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Posted by: tony_opmoc on Jun 2, 2009 2:55 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think the educational system 30-50 years ago was of a much broader, yet higher quality than it is now.
But its the generation that received its education then, that are responsible for the complete mess our society is in now.
"Don't know much about history? Go ahead and authorize waterboarding, even though the U.S. prosecuted it as a war crime after World War II."
Go ahead and ask Cheney what he was doing instead of attending his history class - or more to the point - ask the System how it ever managed to appoint such a monster to such a powerful position in the first place.
Then ask the System why it hasn't arrested him and put him on Trial.
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» RE: Torture, Recession and Wars Heve Nothing To Do With Our Current Educational System
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» RE: Torture, Recession and Wars Heve Nothing To Do With Our Current Educational System
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» RE: Torture, Recession and Wars Have Nothing To Do With Our Current Educational System
Posted by: blitzmesser
» RE: Torture, Recession and Wars Heve Nothing To Do With Our Current Educational System
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» READING THOMAS PYNCHON :) Requires History and Calculus
Posted by: citizen chump
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Jun 2, 2009 5:07 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Therefore, kids who are willing to stick with it until they've mastered calculus, trig, the sciences, etc. and can apply that knowledge to keeping your butt suspended above the gorge below will command superior salaries compared to folks who serve a niche, all other things being equal.
"Outside the box" thinking, in many cases, is just another way of saying that you can't fit your head around a particular concept, so you make something up. Less than 1%* of the time, that might create something better; the other 99.9% of the time, Pythagoras has the right of it.
*Sixty percent of statistics are made up.
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» Good Engineering is Useless without ethics/ Trained professional Labor
Posted by: citizen chump
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Posted by: alexandra_hamilton on Jun 2, 2009 5:13 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They are weeded out either directly by denying them entry or during exams, where results are statistically skewed, some cronies are fed the right answers beforehand,etc.
Higher education is as corrupt, as the rest of the economy it serves.
Professors want to feel important and elated in their ivory tower echo-chamber, so they surround themselves by people who think alike.
BigCorps want people who are either bright but clueless - they serve as useful idiots - or people who are scrupulous enough to play along even if they have seen behind the veil of respectability.
What do those people actually learn that is of value in life? Nothing.
However, they learn obedience and to keept their mouths shut and how to avoid to pose or answer the real questions.
In short, they learn to be servants of power.
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» RE: Higher Education is an entry ticket into the elite
Posted by: apushpa
» In my view your perspective is correct, Alexandra.
Posted by: Centavo
» RE: Servants of Power or Tools for the Elite?
Posted by: kettleblack
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Posted by: apushpa on Jun 2, 2009 5:23 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Public/government schools worldwide that often have good infrastructure but demoralized students and poorly committed staff have furthered the privatization and ‘corporatization’ of education. "Education is an industry which has to earn for itself" said the chairperson of the board of trustees of one of India's leading undergraduate science and technology institutes/schools where I studied (and fortunately acquired not just an engineering degree but an education but I’m certain that some of my friends did just the former!). Unsurprisingly, he was also a scion of one of India's oldest and largest business families.
I shockingly learned in the late 90's that southern India's largest state takes prides in its corporate colleges which mass produce human robots that often ace science and math aptitude tests and sometimes college courses in these subjects. But these students' communication skills and fundamental concepts are often poor. This disease has spread to other places and also deepened the divide between those that can afford the time and money for higher studies and those that can't, denying very capable students from low income families a basic right. Intervention and action by various stakeholders (government, its representatives and partners, media, non-profits, students, teachers parents and other concerned citizens) has achieved precious little.
So, let us continue the campaign for an affordable, accessible, holistic and inclusive education system everywhere that enlightens the minds and touches the hearts of human beings who will emerge as responsible and respectful global citizens.
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Posted by: daw13 on Jun 2, 2009 5:41 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Fairly decent education for the wealthy
2. Training of sorts for other white people
3. Day care for un-wealthy minorities
What we call education constitutes the major form of institutionalized racism in the United States -- the primary mechanism of abondonment and disenfrachisement. What this article deplores in the inadequacy of 2 above. And about that he's not entirely off base.
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Posted by: grindermonkey on Jun 2, 2009 5:41 AM
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» RE: As a child from a parochial background
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: drmflorida on Jun 2, 2009 6:06 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have a daughter, and while she is very young I have already started thinking about college for her. I will encourage her to come intern with me to achieve technical skills that will assure her a career if she needs it, but allow her to reserve college for learning about art, philosophy, history, and all of the other truly important stuff.
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» Gadzooks. You've hit the nail on the head.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
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Posted by: FLYING DOOFUS on Jun 2, 2009 6:23 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Some of the most "liberal" schools are the most expensive !!
Posted by: John More
» Are you pretending to be an idiot or are you the genuine article?
Posted by: rancespergl
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Posted by: rickiey on Jun 2, 2009 7:06 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The purpose of education is to educate, not to indoctrinate.
You are confusing the intention of teaching "how to think" with "what to think".
I remember when education was about teaching "moral values". It was the Christian church that was behind it. We need to avoid that sort of thing.
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» RE: This sentence, I find offensive:
Posted by: Gregsdiary
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Jun 2, 2009 7:37 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: jdub on Jun 2, 2009 7:44 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I retired after teaching history for 39 years, and I agree completely that the entire education system, from secondary school through college has been gradually hijacked by the "get-an-education-so-you-can-get-a-better-job" mentality. Don't take humanities or social sciences seriously ... they are requirements to get out of the way. Don't learn to write, speak clearly, our think. Just learn some technical "skills".
Well modern education in this nation is a crock and everyone who buys into it is shorting themselves and everyone else immeasurably.
I hope someone will listen to Astore, but I suspect he's howling into the wind of ignorance.
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Posted by: Cybershaman on Jun 2, 2009 7:51 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The basic business model is take the customer for all you can while they're in the store, because you may never see them again. Of course, treating a customer like that will insure you never see them again, but that is also beyond the mindsets ability to understand. What you get is a student who knows they are being taken advantage of and can't wait to get the 'college experience' behind them and get on with the task of making money to pay for all that outrageous tuition. They will have no 'fraternal' feelings for their alma mater. There will be no scholarships or trust funds coming from these alumni who will point to their behinds after graduation and say 'That's the last you will see of me!" on the way out as the administration tells them not to let the door hit them in it on the way.
Then the university then will have to depend on a telemarketing push to pressure and annoy alumni into giving. Some will be successful at this type of fundraising with new alumni, but most will only alienate their alumni further.
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Posted by: John H on Jun 2, 2009 8:12 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are some myths about higher education alright.
Myth #1: Higher education is a privilege.
I can't tell you how many times I heard this, both as un undergrad and a grad student. If you don't have to pay the outrageous fees to an already over priced 'education' then maybe it's a privilege, but shouldn't any civilized society educate ALL of its populace without billing them? If you have to foot the bill then its a business transaction. Too many young people are fooled by this rhetoric.
Myth #2: Educators are there for the students.
Most instructors are there soley for themselves. They are too busy working on a book or writing a paper that will convince others to see things THEIR way to bother listening and helping their students.
Myth #3: Higher education makes you a more well rounded person.
What it really does is indoctrinate you. That's helpful when you need to bullshit your way through a job interview because you actually learned nothing in your many years of learning how to say the right thing so you could move to the next 'stage'.
You know what makes you a more well rounded person? Giving a shit about the people around you. Doing something that doesn't advance YOU in anyway but makes the world a better place.
Realities of a higher education.
Students are customers. Thats right. Universities and colleges ARE businesses. I went to school to learn HOW to be an architect. You know. What does an architect really do day to day and how do they do it. That kind of vocational training that is looked down upon because it is too provincial. You know what I learned? How to say the right thing. Thats it...how to say the right thing.
I work with a lot of vocationally trained pleebs, like electricians, plumbers, construction managers, etc. And you know what? They actually know what the hell they are talking about. They not only have real skills that can be 'quantified', but they contribute to society by providing things that people actually need. One other thing to chew on. They all make more money than I do. Starting to get the picture?
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Posted by: RegK on Jun 2, 2009 9:22 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Most of the negative comments people have posted here are about things the writer did NOT say in this piece. Let's discuss what he DID say! For him to have covered all those topics he would have had to write a book on education, and maybe he should.
Today's students, to paraphrase Wilde (I think?) know the price of everything and the value of nothing. The intangibles and imponderables escape them; too many of them are brainwashed utilitarian drones--including, perhaps especially, the honors (elite/rich/often snobbish) students at my university. Mark the argument AGAINST torture that many liberals use: we shouldn't torture because it doesn't work by producing reliable information the effects of which can be measured. NO! We shouldn't torture because it is WRONG! Ideas of right and wrong and all things in between are too abstract for the way we are training young people to 'think', that is, to value only what can be measured.
I do think that bringing back the draft would wake these kids up...then they would talk about something besides parking spaces and cafeteria food!
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» RE: This is brilliant!!!
Posted by: John H
» RE: This is brilliant!!!
Posted by: willymack
» RE: Thank you for saying this.
Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: This is brilliant!!!
Posted by: Gregsdiary
» RE: This is brilliant!!!
Posted by: John H
» RE: This is brilliant!!!
Posted by: Gregsdiary
» RE: This is brilliant!!!
Posted by: John H
» RE: This is brilliant!!!
Posted by: Gregsdiary
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Posted by: jaredh on Jun 2, 2009 10:00 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This has nothing to do with politics. There is a separate market for top-flight students with multiple interests. It is quite common to find top physicists who are excellent musicians, doctors who are poets or writers, engineers who paint. But people with multiple talents are rare and they go to MIT or Princeton or Carnegie Mellon or some such and they don't go to the Pennsylvania School of Technology. (and its not about money: top flight engineering schools kill each other to get qualified minority candidates).
The author is describing a glorified trade school, not a university. We should not expect it to do much other than produce narrowly competent technicians. There are plenty of things wrong with elite schools as well, but they do offer broader opportunities to those who want to take them, and will force technical students to take non-Mickey Mouse liberal arts courses and so on. They simply are serving a different market for students.
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» RE: There are Different Markets for Education
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: willymack on Jun 2, 2009 11:03 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. The equating of anti-capitalism as anti-American. How would we know if something other than capitalism would be better for us all if other ideas weren't presented in a school of higher learning? You could always go to Bonehead U, you know, jokes like oral roberts, or that funhouse run by pat roberts, if you want to "graduate" as a chucklehead.
2. Education not quantifiable? What value can be put on the minds of Plato or Einstein if something concrete doesn't ensue?
3.Do we or do we not have the right to question authority? Do we or do we not have the right and the obligation to subject the actions of our elected officials to the closest scrutiny and most rigid moral and ethical standards?
4. Education vs indoctrination? Being dragged, kicking and screaming to a church is one form of indoctrination. This is quite different than gladly and freely choosing to attend a good college for the purpose of benefitting from the thoughts and philosophies of some of the greatest thinkers in history, and the positive change and refinement a good education provides. Colleges ideally, don't indoctrinate anyone. They merely teach a course of study and leave it to the students to do what they will with it.
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» RE: A few thoughts
Posted by: davewuxi
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Posted by: Jaffe on Jun 2, 2009 11:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
learning--especially in the Arts, Humanities and Social Sciences--was not attached to the hip of instrumentality, the "market," earning big salaries.
True learning (the argument went) has about it a disinterest (not uninterest)--it has to do with broadening frames of reference, learning, without condescension, how other humans live through the study of languages, history, art, and literature; and learning as much as one could about life itself, both animate and inanimate.
Multiversities are now the rule. Public universities are underfunded and thus justify their alliances with Microsoft, Starbucks, the Pentagon, etc.
Private universities generally don't bother to justify their alliances.
Rather than educators, university presidents tend to come from the business sector; MBA administrators earn three times the salary of Ph.D faculty.
Seductive "high" technology is of course the great facilitator. Younger university students were born into it and cannot imagine not looking at a screen to "see" the world.
Faculty are, in the US, often allied with the counterculture--pot-smoking anarchists who delegate their responsibilities to graduate students. And though faculty are supposed to "produce" writings through research, at the same time they are to be held "accountable" and remain in their offices eight hours a day, five days a week.
Although anti-intellectuality has a long history in the US, the disease is metastasizing to other "developed" countries. In Sarkozy's France, the universities have been on strike for months.
US university union responses, on the other hand, are weak, mostly unconnected with the working class.
Compare the affiliation with workers among rebel students and faculty in '68 France with the ongoing dissension between rebel students and workers in the US.
What can be done? For starters, university politics cannot be separated from global politics. "Political correctness," which was tacitly condoned by universities, segregated ethical dissenters.
We must think and work collectively.
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Posted by: Gregsdiary on Jun 2, 2009 11:18 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That quote goes to the heart at what's really being taught--and fought over.
The freedom to determine human worth from within ourselves is the very essence of human freedom. And discovering our human equality is both the means and the ends of that freedom.
But freedom dosn't come free in a world that also determines self-worth based not on principle but on self-interest. A world where human worth is externally defined by the power of kings and markets.
So there's a great struggle over who gets to define human worth.
It's an ancient and recurring struggle as old as Cain and Abel and as American as the Declaration.
At stake is the determination of our relation to power and our relation to each other:
Do we we accept the perogatives of unfettered power or do we challenge power based on principle?
Are we a society connected by the self-interest of obeying the profit motive or the power of kings or are we connected to each other by the principle of equality?
The answers to those questions determines our human freedom. Or the lack of it.
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Posted by: nancorbett on Jun 2, 2009 11:18 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I work in high tech. In the last few jobs I've held, I was the only one on my team with a college degree. My field is secure, challenging and pays well. And I didn't learn it in school.
I don't think anything will change the way education is perceived in American culture. It's just seen as a hoop to jump through to get to monetary success. But that doesn't mean that El Dorado isn't hiding in there for those who are into treasure hunting.
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Posted by: DaBear on Jun 2, 2009 11:49 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just wanted to know all about how things work, how people operate, why this or that happened, what was the real story, or even better, all those other stories that the boss-man didn't want me to know... I wanted to learn how to communicate an idea to people who spoke other languages, or were from other cultures than my own, how to examine a piece of art and talk about it, hell, how to make the damnable piece of art so others could talk about it.
To me, that's the whole point of an education: (social capital) to know stuff.
Along the way I also learned how to figure things out, make a hypothesis and test it, how to get up the guts to ask a girl out, how to NOT bogart the weed and other useful skills (the first time--the second crack I had to learn how to beg borrow and steal without it looking like it).
I think the author does quite well at identifying the age-old problem with higher eddicashun and those three damned myths. And yeah, because it cost me a place to live and I'm still in debt for the last stint (so I could earn that piece of paper that means nothing to at least 583 potential employers since graduating at age 42... mainly because I was 42 and now am even older... but to me that paper means the world. I finished a focused discipline, an avenue of concentrated study, after having done all the other fun-and-just-as-important multi-disciplinary stuff I needed to know about) I get the commentors that bitch about the consumer aspect being true.
The reality is, higher education shouldn't economically hamstring a person and it shouldn't have to only serve some owning-class prick's sense of pragmatic purpose or the classist bullshit savant's need for get-a-degree-so-you-can-move-up-in-life. But that's the system the owning class chose for all of us. It's wrong. They're wrong. We need to change it.
Education (on every level) for anyone who wants it, pay a fair share and yeah, sorry, you rich people suck it up and pay more-- to those who have been given much, much more is demanded, deal with it--and that education should be broad enough to make you wise to some cracker-massa's bullshit, important enough for its own sake, and have a narrow focused component so you come out the other end feeling like you finished something and can move on to other things.
For that to happen, the owning class will need to be cut down a few pegs. Get busy.
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» nice
Posted by: Drclaw
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Posted by: Spiritgirl on Jun 2, 2009 11:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This has happened! There was a time when education was broader, but unfortunately both the number crunchers and "the free-market" ideologues prevailed, much to the detriment of society as a whole! From the time our children enter elementary school they are taught to conform, and graze passively - everything in society teaches that that is what they must do. There is no such animal as independent thinking and analysis!
For proof - let us look at the lead up to Iraq, those that were trying to warn us against such imperialism were labeled spine-less, America hating, and abetting "the terrorists" - the really sad part is that the very people that started this dodged VietNam! Even now Chaney, Bush, Rumsfeld and the rest should at least be answering for their collective crimes against humanity - yet they are not! The fact that a Manchurian candidate Bush was even elected was really the farce upon this nation!
The GOP bring out the "family values" phrase when they want to stir up "faux controversy" but the people answering the call - are the very people that are responding viscerally without really analyzing what's going on! The corporate oligarchy and their minions know exactly what they are doing, the deck is always stacked against the "regular Joe"! It is time for all Americans to realize this, and work together to take our nation back from the corporate oligarchy!
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Posted by: raginghormones on Jun 2, 2009 1:47 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Because these are the thinkers who come up with new ideas. Without new ideas and perspectives, the society will just run out of steam.
Look at the totalitarian societies of today and in the past. They did not and do NOT arrest the chemists, engineers, business majors, the IT experts. No! The ones they haul away in the middle of the night are the philosphers, the authors, the poets, the Liberal Arts majors. Because these are the people who have IDEAS, and the training to come up with IDEAS. And that makes them DANGEROUS!
Witness the following sceanrio:
you call together three highly trained college educated persons--an MBA, a person with an Information Technology Degree, and a person who has a degree in History and/or Social Studies.
You put to them the question: why is there all this terrorist hostility to the United States in the Muslim world?
The MBA: "I haven't the foggiest notion".
The IT guy: "Beats me. Maybe they need to upgrade their software or something?"
The Historian: "Well, it's because of...(launches into a thorough dissertation on the history and social culture of the Middle East, and the role countries had in cynically exploiting the people of that region).
So I ask you---which person is the more useful?
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» RE: Society needs THINKERS--not just "technical" people
Posted by: tony_opmoc
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Posted by: allen1249 on Jun 2, 2009 3:21 PM
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How many clubs and activities can a kid be involved in when his teenage years consist of school to work to babysitting to bed?
How many inner-city kids have 50$ an hour tutor for test prep and writing help.
How many times can they afford to take the same entrance exams multiple times.
How many poor kids can spend 6 years in college retaking classes they just cant pass? (around the third time you take the same class with the same tests and reading, it does get a bit easier to pass.)
If the system of higher education was based on any sort of intellectual or social merit, statistically you would see a much smaller gap between parents wealth and college graduation rates.
Now add this to a competitive job market that demands a degree for entry-level jobs, the system starts to become a lovely pin-wheel. (or a Farris wheel its up to you) It's quite a lovely cycle of keeping money and power under control.
Its become such a perversion of the very ideals the so strongly proclaim to promote, that the degree might as well been purchased at a diploma mill. (You could also make your own, then you can get a degree in whatever you'd like!)
its flying a helicopter to the top of a mountain.Once you're at the top, take a couple pictures. Remember, it doesn't matter how you got to the top, only that you made it there.(and can prove it!)
before i get all digressive I do think that for specific careers, some type of formal training is necessary. Doctors, engineers, applied sciences, and others do need to acquire practice and knowledge in their field. With these jobs a system needs to be in place to acknowledge that a person has been trained for their occupation.
Yes college does this, but so does getting a drivers license from the state. Drivers ed teachers should really start a 4 year 70,000 drivers ed program. Lives are in their hands every time they take the wheel. We need to make sure that they get a good 4 years of experience!
(Am I still writing this...?
Just skip over some paragraphs if its too long,there's sooo many words here. Its not like anything in here is revolutionary, just the result of a long train ride without a drink cart.)
ok kids, time to wrap this up.
The current job market has been flooded with college graduates with diplomas hung on their wall and their ipods on their belts and their etchasketch (is that really how you spell it? the word looks hideous.) in their briefcase , or whatever the hip new trend is this week.
If higher education creates more knowledgeable and skilled citizens, with some of the highest enrollment and graduation rates, shouldn't we have noticed by now? Shouldn't things have been getting better and better each year?
Isn't college the place where questions like these should be addressed?
If you're just looking to go to college for a good job, just bribe some politician or HR person, a good 50,000$ should do it. You'll also end up less in debt, and have made a new friend!
and so on and such.
the end
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Posted by: rational_moderate on Jun 2, 2009 5:39 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A lot of comments express the biased (and incorrect) view that the social sciences are the only path to critical thinking about our place in the world.
While it's true that social sciences can really enrich one's understanding of these things, I think the sciences (especially biology) also contribute to this understanding.
Some posters complain that many people just take social science classes because they're forced to, just to get them out of the way, and that's certainly true. But it's also true of science classes for these so-called liberal arts "thinkers". The difference is that whereas everyone takes the same introductory social science classes, the "hard" sciences are often segregated into classes for majors and dramatically watered-down classes for non-science people. Usually these classes are a joke in comparison, often evidenced by their names or nicknames ("physics for poets", "rocks for jocks", etc.). Students generally can't fulfill their social science requirements with classes like "Sociology for science nerds" or "History for football players". So ironically, it's sometimes the sociology majors that have the less broad education, even while they have the smug attitude that they're the enlightened thinkers.
As for being a good world citizen, I feel that the appalling level of understanding of ecology, etc. might pose a greater threat than ignorance of history and sociology.
Also, given that a majority of Americans still reject the theory of evolution, despite absolutely overwhelming evidence, I'd like to see more scientific literacy.
Another point is that the sciences are often harder to learn on your own than the social sciences. A good read of Howard Zinn's People's History of the US can be a real mind-opener, but any literate person can read that book without any special background. On the other hand, some scientific concepts are hard to learn on your own from a book, especially when labs are such an important part of the learning process.
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Posted by: rational_moderate on Jun 2, 2009 5:58 PM
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I think in the latter half of the 20th century, the social sciences swung WAY too far in the direction of emphasizing "nurture" over "nature" in that classic puzzle.
Evolutionary biology and psycho-biology can provide an often missing perspective in understanding almost any aspect of society -- we are the manifestation of biology, after all.
The main instigator for my response was the post by "raginghormones", so I'll address the question:
"Why is there all this terrorist hostility to the United States in the Muslim world?"
I certainly want to hear the historian's point of view. But that's just one tool of understanding.
How many people could explain how the selfish gene hypothesis relates to fighting between different ethnicities?
How about the psycho-biological roots of extreme religious beliefs?
How many people could adequately address how this relates to the problem of population overshoot? I would say that less than 1% of the American people actually understands ecology and issues of sustainability and are technically adept enough to understand why deep ecologists say the sustainable world population is between 0.5 and 2 billion.
So, the historian might have the best short-term answer to the problems while still being clueless about the big picture long-term issues.
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» RE: Understanding social conflicts with biology
Posted by: Jaffe
» RE: Understanding social conflicts with biology
Posted by: rational_moderate
» RE: Understanding social conflicts with biology
Posted by: Jaffe
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Posted by: Bosan on Jun 2, 2009 8:56 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Rather than whine about the effects of greed and academic marketing, we need to figure out how to convince the public that business leaders actually want creative graduates who are able to apply the critical thinking skills acquired by a well-rounded, liberal education. These kinds of people will rise to the top of their fields.
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» RE: sounds like Investment Bankers
Posted by: kettleblack
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Posted by: dissentisgood on Jun 2, 2009 9:36 PM
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Posted by: HSencillo on Jun 3, 2009 10:16 PM
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Been there, and done that. It got me fired.
I wish him luck keeping his job.
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Posted by: victor_whou on Jun 5, 2009 1:57 AM
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Posted by: blondesprite on Jun 7, 2009 6:37 AM
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http://vodpod.com/watch/1559877-some-tom-waits
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