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Howard Zinn: Changing Obama's Military Mindset

By Howard Zinn, The Progressive. Posted May 15, 2009.


Obama once said, 'It's not enough to get out of Iraq; we have to get out of the mindset that led us into Iraq.' What happened to that Obama?

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We are citizens, and Obama is a politician. You might not like that word. But the fact is he’s a politician. He’s other things, too—he’s a very sensitive and intelligent and thoughtful and promising person. But he’s a politician.

If you’re a citizen, you have to know the difference between them and you—the difference between what they have to do and what you have to do. And there are things they don’t have to do, if you make it clear to them they don’t have to do it.

From the beginning, I liked Obama. But the first time it suddenly struck me that he was a politician was early on, when Joe Lieberman was running for the Democratic nomination for his Senate seat in 2006.

Lieberman—who, as you know, was and is a war lover—was running for the Democratic nomination, and his opponent was a man named Ned Lamont, who was the peace candidate. And Obama went to Connecticut to support Lieberman against Lamont.

It took me aback. I say that to indicate that, yes, Obama was and is a politician. So we must not be swept away into an unthinking and unquestioning acceptance of what Obama does.

Our job is not to give him a blank check or simply be cheerleaders. It was good that we were cheerleaders while he was running for office, but it’s not good to be cheerleaders now. Because we want the country to go beyond where it has been in the past. We want to make a clean break from what it has been in the past.

I had a teacher at Columbia University named Richard Hofstadter, who wrote a book called The American Political Tradition, and in it, he examined presidents from the Founding Fathers down through Franklin Roosevelt. There were liberals and conservatives, Republicans and Democrats. And there were differences between them. But he found that the so-called liberals were not as liberal as people thought—and that the difference between the liberals and the conservatives, and between Republicans and Democrats, was not a polar difference. There was a common thread that ran through all American history, and all of the presidents—Republican, Democrat, liberal, conservative—followed this thread.

The thread consisted of two elements: one, nationalism; and two, capitalism. And Obama is not yet free of that powerful double heritage.

We can see it in the policies that have been enunciated so far, even though he’s been in office only a short time.

Some people might say, “Well, what do you expect?”

And the answer is that we expect a lot.

People say, “What, are you a dreamer?”

And the answer is, yes, we’re dreamers. We want it all. We want a peaceful world. We want an egalitarian world. We don’t want war. We don’t want capitalism. We want a decent society.

We better hold on to that dream—because if we don’t, we’ll sink closer and closer to this reality that we have, and that we don’t want.

Be wary when you hear about the glories of the market system. The market system is what we’ve had. Let the market decide, they say. The government mustn’t give people free health care; let the market decide.

Which is what the market has been doing—and that’s why we have forty-eight million people without health care. The market has decided that. Leave things to the market, and there are two million people homeless. Leave things to the market, and there are millions and millions of people who can’t pay their rent. Leave things to the market, and there are thirty-five million people who go hungry.

You can’t leave it to the market. If you’re facing an economic crisis like we’re facing now, you can’t do what was done in the past. You can’t pour money into the upper levels of the country—and into the banks and corporations—and hope that it somehow trickles down.

What was one of the first things that happened when the Bush Administration saw that the economy was in trouble? A $700 billion bailout, and who did we give the $700 billion to? To the financial institutions that caused this crisis.

This was when the Presidential campaign was still going on, and it pained me to see Obama standing there, endorsing this huge bailout to the corporations.

What Obama should have been saying was: Hey, wait a while. The banks aren’t poverty stricken. The CEOs aren’t poverty stricken. But there are people who are out of work. There are people who can’t pay their mortgages. Let’s take $700 billion and give it directly to the people who need it. Let’s take $1 trillion, let’s take $2 trillion.

Let’s take this money and give it directly to the people who need it. Give it to the people who have to pay their mortgages. Nobody should be evicted. Nobody should be left with their belongings out on the street.


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Howard Zinn is the author of “A People’s History of the United States,” “Voices of a People’s History” (with Anthony Arnove), and “A Power Governments Cannot Suppress.” Thanks to Alex Read and Matt Korn for transcribing Zinn’s talk on February 2 at the Busboys and Poets restaurant in Washington, D.C., from which this is adapted.

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The Part Zinn Got Right ...
Posted by: mmckinl on May 16, 2009 12:35 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"That’s been the story of this country. Where progress has been made, wherever any kind of injustice has been overturned, it’s been because people acted as citizens, and not as politicians. They didn’t just moan. They worked, they acted, they organized, they rioted if necessary to bring their situation to the attention of people in power. And that’s what we have to do today."

Howard Zinn has a much more benign picture of who Obama is than I do ... I believe Obama is doing exactly what the Banksters and the Military Industrial Complex want him to do ... I believe Obama is a front for TPTB and the work and the organizing and the rioting will have to be enormous, involve tens of millions of people and may even result in a police state.

Let's face it, we already have fascism light. Severe crony-capitalism, giving the banksters trillions and the people peanuts, secret surveilance of our lives, secret no-fly, no hire lists, police departments already enlisted and trained as storm troopers armed with assault rifles and "no tell" warrant-less search and seizures.

I see a much beaker picture than Zinn. The economy is crashing yet the lies about green shoots and recovery keep on coming. Those in the know are squeezing the last drops of blood out of the people.

Zinn has the right ideas but to be honest I think there is a better than 50% chance we'll end up with a police state. The PTB know that the stakes are too high, the threat to their power and wealth too great to chance anything but a brutal, repressive fascist response.

Until we meet in the streets ... " buena suerte"

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» RE: The Part Zinn Got Right ... Posted by: eruditeogre
» RE: The Part Zinn Got Right ... Posted by: redstarwraith
» I didn't vote for Obama... Posted by: buffeliscious
Poor old Howard
Posted by: cascadia on May 16, 2009 12:40 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Doesn't he know?

Now we can Twitter, and never leave the comfort of the chair in front of the screen.

Protest has been commodified, like everything else. Friendly fascism has triumphed, for the time being, until the food runs out. Then it won't be so friendly.

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» Yep... Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE: Yep... Posted by: jenko
» RE: Yep... Posted by: Ruthanda
» RE: Yep... Posted by: cascadia
» RE: Yep... Posted by: Aquinas
Reality hurts!
Posted by: SFNBAT on May 16, 2009 1:34 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Welcome to reality Mr. Howard Zinn! The so-called left or progressives in the USA are always making the same mistake over and over again, and they never learn. They go with a democratic candidate because it´s the lesser of two evils. But the lesser of two evils is still evil. Other than that this piece has so many pathetic lines like "...he’s a very sensitive and intelligent and thoughtful and promising person."; "It was good that we were cheerleaders while he was running for office..."; coming from a historian this lines strike me as very naive. What does inteligence has to do with morals? or being a thoughtful person? Yes Mr. Obama seems like an inteligent person but inteligence is morally neutral. I´m sorry to say this, and i am not an american citizen, i am from Portugal but my opinion is that the left or the progressives in the USA are really pathetic.

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» RE: eality hurts! Posted by: mylesh
» RE: eality hurts! Posted by: eruditeogre
» What do you folks expect from him? Posted by: buffeliscious
An increasingly authoritarian state
Posted by: and_abottleofrum on May 16, 2009 2:03 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Note: I wrote this comment in response to Alternet's article today on Obama's reversal on releasing photographs of torture conducted by the U.S. military. I think it fits as a response to this article by the esteemed Howard Zinn as well. I should point out that my interpretation, as sampled below, does not stress the role of individual and collective volition in shaping the course of future events, but rather it sees the structural inertia of civilizational decay as the underlying driving force of today's and tomorrow's likely developments. However I do not disregard the role of human agency in shaping the constructed environment, only believe that its efficacy waxes and wanes with the times and with the opportunities they present. Now is less an age of opportunity and human potency than one of increasing limitations.


It is interesting how the political rhetoriticians have spun Obama's growing knack for secrecy under the guise of national security as "politically mature" and "presidential." The implication of course is it's silly to think the public should have access to sensitive government information - that the commoners are far removed from their leaders and should be manipulated like children to keep them peaceful and manageable. All states think this way, but the association between a favorable disposition to secrecy and supposedly proper presidential behavior underscores what has been called the "imperial presidency."

Presidential power to rule unilaterally is increasing; there is no clearer testimony to this fact than the initiation of a "pre-emptive" war by George W. Bush, although the fear tactics used to ram through the TARP legislation last autumn, which included telling members of Congress that failure to pass this legislation would lead to martial law in the United States, come very close.

It is likely that as the Unites States finds itself facing new barriers that prevent it from imposing its will over other nations and over the natural world in the manner to which its ruling class is accustomed, due to declining economic power and the rising economic and military power of rival states, as well as to encroaching ecological limits which challenge the prevailing capitalist economic model, that our ruling elites will impose tighter restrictions on the behavior of their subjects backed up by harsher penalties for transgressing the ever-narrowing scope of legally permissible action. This rise in authoritarianism will act as a remedy of sorts - mostly of the placebo sort - to the frightening sense of diminished power our elites will experience in managing global affairs. Loss of external control generates a compensative need for enhanced internal domination.

Secrecy and contempt for an otherized public are natural elements of authoritarian leadership. Expect these to become more common and pronounced in the latter stages of imperial and industrial decline, as the sphere of elite power densifies around its core before the now-maladaptive baggage that overloads American culture is cast off in a violent outburst, signifying the death of the status quo and leaving behind scattered materials from which new sociocultural arrangements can take shape.

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Change = Socialism...
Posted by: chance garden on May 16, 2009 2:44 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article, in my humble opinion, is another example demostrating the ever more obvious trending of American politics toward socialism...

Liberal = socialist = communitarian = Fabian Society = Agenda 21.

There is an interesting book by Dr. Amatai Etzioni called "The Monochrome Society" (2003) that has a polyglot image of a person's face composed of many different people on it's cover. This image bears a striking resemblance to Barack Obama!

It seems reasonable that Obama may be taking some of his ideas from Communitarian Theory.

There is little doubt in my mind that this is the most likely agenda we shall now see unfolding in America and elsewhere in the world.

The only question in my mind is how long this agenda will be concealed from the general public due to their fear of anything that sounds like Socialism/ Communism.

The manufactured economic global crisis should provide just the tragic pretext to facilitate the changeover, while creating the illusion in the minds of the sheeple that this is what is now required AND desired by the citizenry, in the spirit of community.

A sort of voluntary indentured servitude based on a mandated regional communitarian dialectic blending action and morals....

Wishing you well, Comrades, your brother Chance Garden salutes our efforts!

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» RE: Change = Fascism, dear Comrade... Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
» Bowling Alone Posted by: Basenjis
» Communitarianism benefits everyone... Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE: Change = Socialism... Posted by: particle
» What are you talking about? Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE: Change = Socialism... Posted by: hilaryuk
City of the big shoulders
Posted by: Perry Logan on May 16, 2009 3:18 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Despite appearances, the Democratic Party is dead. It has been taken over by Clinton haters.

And Clinton haters will destroy any party they touch.

During the primaries, the favored technique of the Obama supporters was to call their fellow Democrats racists. Since no real Democrat would ever do this, I knew the party had fallen into the wrong hands.

The Democratic Party has been hijacked by a distinctly pathological group--the hardcore Obama supporters--who hate other Democrats to an almost psychotic degree and are willing to cheat to defeat them.

A quick perusal of Huffington Post, DailyKos, BussFlash, or Democratic Underground will confirm this. Mention Bill Clinton to some of these folks, and they'll write you a goddam porn novel.

If you think we can have a healthy Democratic Party run by people who hate Democrats, you're nuts.

And that's why we have another neocon in the White House. He cheated his way in, just like George W. Bush, and has already screwed our chance for election reform, finished off any chance of publicly funded elections, screwed any chance of single-payer health care, derailed the antiwar movement, blown the economic recovery on behalf of the bankers, done everything possible to insure that Republican war crimes fester, and guaranteed that election theft will continue.

The Dems have also moved their headquarters to Chicago, City of the Big Shoulders. We are so screwed.


Xe Technology: To Unscrew America

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Quit acting naive about Obama.
Posted by: rafaeltoral on May 16, 2009 4:14 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama knows exactly what he is doing. Even though the obamabots have simmered down some, they still refuse to accept that Obama is exactly what he appears to be.

He duped you into thinking he was for change. When really he is a just a new face for the same agenda.

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» CAN'T A BROTHER HAVE A LITTLE FUN? Posted by: Dennis St. John
» But I Voted for Change Posted by: left_libertarian
War is the answer
Posted by: 911FalseFlag on May 16, 2009 4:52 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is astonishing to me that even Howard Zinn believes the following:
What is the mindset that got us into Iraq?
It’s the mindset that says force will do the trick. Violence, war, bombers—that they will bring democracy and liberty to the people.
It’s the mindset that says America has some God-given right to invade other countries for their own benefit.

It seems like he believes that this country attacks other countries to spread democracy. Is he delusional? This country has always attacked for power and control of their resources. When people say "war is not the answer", it seems that they are unaware that the military-industrial oil private central banking complex that wages war benefits from war. So war is the answer to the people who start them.

It is quite discouraging when people like Howard Zinn still have this mindset. It is the mindset that the government of this country is basically good and is out for the good of the people. In reality, the government of this country has been usurped many years ago by the military-industrial oil private central banking complex. It has also been taken over for purposes of Middle Eastern policy by Israel.

I have many articles and videos on this topic and many others on my website which is www.911 insidejob.net.

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» Pls. reply to this question? Posted by: weathered
» WHY WERE ISRAELIS AND JEWS WARNED Posted by: Dennis St. John
» RE: WHY WERE ISRAELIS AND JEWS WARNED Posted by: Joshua Holland
goto:GoldmanSachs666.com
Posted by: weathered on May 16, 2009 5:27 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
behold satan's investment banker;a geopolitcal clusterfuck all dressed-up like a brokerage/banking/investment house.

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It appears to me that Zinn did not ONLY drink...
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal on May 16, 2009 6:24 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...the Obama Kool-Aid, but is smoking it on a daily basis, otherwise his head should have cleared by now.

Bam-Bam's positions were started by the Shrub and are just being continued. So if you loved the Shrub you must at least like Shrub-Lite.

Those that smoked the Kool-Aid of Change must should be coming down from your high. True progressives did not listen to the speech to line up for the rapture when Bam-bam gave it the first time.

Bam-Bam is a corporate whore and is afraid of the Yahweh-military-industrial complex.

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What is Zinn's responsibility
Posted by: daw13 on May 16, 2009 6:34 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Marx and Engles, whom Prof. Zinn admires, observed that people will put up with a lot of ruling class degeneracy so long as the mode of production is not too out of sink with the mode of society. I.e. so long as basic survival is not threatened. When this occurs, people have the capacity, and the will to demand change. It is the responsibility of scholars like Zinn to evaluate where the situation stands, in this regard. Specifically, are the repressive goals of our ever more fascist regime feasible? Can their policies succeed at keeping this nation relatively safe, at however terrible a moral cost? Or is it quite likely that those we deem expendable, abroad and locally, have the capacity and will to ensure that all share the fate planned for them? I.e. should we anticipate a world of stable fascism, which many would probably accept, or a world of chaos? When about thirty of us tried to raise this issue at a Historians Against the War convention a few years ago, where Prof. Zinn was the keynote speaker, we were told that this was not the place or the time to raise such concerns.

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» LOOK TO THE CHINESE COMMUNIST EXPERIMENT Posted by: Dennis St. John
» In short... Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE: In short... Posted by: daw13
The myth of American Exceptionalism dictates the order of our day
Posted by: knowbuddhaU on May 16, 2009 7:15 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thanks for the great article, professor. Poetically speaking, our militaristic minsdset looks like this:

[[[Full-Spectrum Dominance / Our Common Weal///[[[{{{Suppression of Dissent}}}]]]]]]

In this case, the generic formula reads: Full-spectrum dominance over our common weal based on suppression of dissent

This is how I depict our more perfect Union:

beloved/[{UNION}]/Beloved

In Union We trust.

The mindset of which you so movingly speak is our mythos.

Our mythos shapes the political-economic cosmos in which we enact the theater of life. Acting within the same mythos, namely Christian Imperialism, that intended the feudal Newtonian cosmos that grew the social Darwinian psychos who now confuse the Commons with their private fiefs, won"t get us any nearer the Promised Land.

CAPTAIN EMMIT FURNER: ...The more that we win over the hearts and minds, the better we’re going to be in accomplishing our mission to eradicate insurgents and Taliban and everybody else who’s bad. We want more on our side, and we’re not going to have more on our side if they see us as Bible-thumping, finger-pointing, critical people....Democracy Now!: Crusade for a Christian Military?

With that as our mission, will our servicemembers ever be coming home? Or will we continue to pursue perpetual war for an ever-receding total victory over our very own shadows?

We have absolutely conflated growth and decay with good and evil. It's out of this background that we later develop the myth of American Exceptionalism.

Our wars are the only holy wars because, we believe, along with others of the Abrahamic lineage, that we are god's own agents here on earth, supervising his plantation and labor force: a race of underlings, slaves, created especially for doing our work so we can live the life of leisure.

Is this mindset all about finding news ways to fight Augustine's old war," of the City of God v. City of Man?

"The laws of the City of God are applied only to his in-group (tribe, church, nation, class, or what not) while the fire of a perpetual holy war is hurled (with good conscience, and indeed a sense of pious service) against whatever uncircumcised, barbarian, heathen, "native," or alien people happens to occupy the position of neighbor. [Joseph Campbell (1949), The Hero with a Thousand Faces, p. 155]

Our national business model for the global economy is plantation, and we plan on imposing it with full-spectrum dominance. So what can we expect as the equal and opposite reaction of the fully dominated?

"Joint Vision 2020 addresses full-spectrum dominance across the range of conflicts from nuclear war to major theater wars to smaller-scale contingencies. It also addresses amorphous situations like peacekeeping and noncombat humanitarian relief. Key to U.S. dominance in any conflict will be what the chairman calls "decision superiority" -- translating information superiority into better decisions arrived at and implemented faster than an enemy can react. [http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=45289]

FSD is a declaration of permanent war. And to our NSA-type fiends with bodies to hide, we are the enemy. That's the quasi-religious, nationalistic mindset we must change.

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» RE: American Exceptionalism Posted by: left_libertarian
Citizen Lopez
Posted by: yodyos on May 16, 2009 7:29 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama is more of the same old stuff that has lied to the people of America. He is like an ardent lover that says all of the right things to seduce his lady. Once married he beats the stuffing out of her, "just because I could." All it took was an airplane ride, a few nights in the royal palace and he was in stride with all of the politicians before him. Continue to do it to the American People and give it a new name. To his credit he was an incredibly talented liar, and to my regret I voted for him.

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The Obama Deception
Posted by: we_need_Abe on May 16, 2009 7:31 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Find, watch and pass along the Obama Deception DVD. I greatly respect Mr. Zinn but he is tired. The world needs new and greatly enhanced activism to break us out of the two party merry-go-round of "no change is possible". We will never get everything changed that needs it. Let shoot for Ron Paul in 2012 and any other constitutionalists we can find in the interim elections. You want change? Don't wait for Obama, we need to do it ourselves.

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» WHAT WE NEED IS A TITANIC SHIFT... Posted by: Dennis St. John
This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.
» RE: Danger - Identity Theft! Posted by: oregoncharles
Ha!
Posted by: SocoLoco on May 16, 2009 7:58 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Marketing studies have show that "Change you can believe in" works better than "The same old failed policies that got us here in the first place."

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» RE: Ha! More deep thinking! Posted by: VZEQICVA
BigEasy
Posted by: BigEasy on May 16, 2009 8:15 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Seduced and Abandoned by Uncle Tom Obama

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» BUT (SOB, SNIFF), Posted by: Dennis St. John
120 Days and You SOB's start crying
Posted by: Purple Girl on May 16, 2009 8:29 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is why I refuse to support the Far Fringe of the Dem party.They are willing to cut our throats because things are not going exactly as they want.
40 yrs of covert foreign interference, Corp Rule and Whorish politicians and you expect Obama to wave a magic wand and rectify everything in 4 months! and you laugh at the religious right for believing in miracles!
Heres some truths you - much like the Neo cons- fail to mention
We FU'ed Afghanistan in the '80's- pissing off the population for leaving them vicitms to the Taliban and AQ
We FU'ed iraq by empowering and equipping Saddam's REgime during the Iraq/Iran war
Our Gov't officials have been sucking Big Oil and their overlords the Oil Royals off for Decades (including Clinton)
Futher our illustrious public Servants have sold US out Lock Stock and Barrel to Multinationals -esp in finance.
This Quest for, and addiction to, Oil has been fought and Financed with our Resources- aka The Military Industrial Complex.Which now after over a 1/2 Century not only owns and controls US, but the entire Global economy.
So please tell me what major limb or vital organ do you wish to put the axe to ?Which major blood vessel would you like to severe first to see Us all hemorrage to death.
Pull out again from Both Iraq and afghanistan- not only screwing them in an act of 'coitus interruptus', but only increasing their hatred of US and devastation we constantly leave in our wake? We fu'ed up going into both- We now must try to repair the damage.
Should we pull IV out of the life blood of our financial system now so dependent on the circulatory function of Big banking?
These diesases we have are not just lesions to be easily exorcised, but are now Systemic. It's taken Decades to become this infected- it's going to take a while to cure US. This is going to be a methodical and priority setting process. Your Butcher Job may be a sucess in eliminating the offending agent, but the patient will die in the process.And if we are going to do some 'surgery' let's do it with a scapel not a Axe.
Get over it, we are going to have to dance with the Devil a little more. we are going to have to eliminate the disease in a process of small debrisements,infusions of 'antibiotics and blood' and at times allowing some elements to run their course,extinguished through attrition.
All your far lefties do is help write the Neo Cons next days script and talking points.
Of course I have no interest in being a blind zealot, but I also have no interest in undermining or second guessing a New leader after on 120 days.
I am sick of the Far Fringe left of the Dem party, you all have done more harm to help progess than help it. Your Hair fire screaming ME ME uncompromising, self rightous agenda pisses me off as much as the Religious Rights.
Thanks For corn as Bio fuel.Thanks for helping make AIDS a purely Gay disease.thanks for giving Animal advocacy a bad name. thanks for Radicalizing the peace & environmental movement.Thanks for making it the 'Abortion issue' and not the birth control issue. Thanks for helping create the Wedge issues, which negate the opportunity to work together to combat War, famine, global warming (for every action there is an equal or greater Reaction)...It takes two to tango and the Far left has been dancing step for step with the Far Right for decades.Could you for ONCE pull your panties out of your asses and extinguish your hair for for a moment?
Want to know how far left I really am- I voted for Kucinich in the primary. But realize we are not even close as a country to reaching those ideal yet- the shits too screwed up to wave a damn magic wand.Shut up and let Obama at least get US close to the Right Course!

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» RE: So you did the safe, easy thing, Posted by: oregoncharles
But you voted for Obama so live with it ! OOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!! LOL !!
Posted by: FLYING DOOFUS on May 16, 2009 8:32 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now if you'll excuse me, I have another bread bowl chicken pasta to enjoy !

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» RE: you need a new joke, Posted by: oregoncharles
BA
Posted by: mnstra on May 16, 2009 8:43 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Howard, I cannot believe my eyes at your article. You of all people ,are an elder of society and should not be seduced by Obamas political speeches.You knew during the campaign that that was the time to speak out for a third party and to help the voters to see that both candidates were the same old wine in new bottles.Your article , though thought provoking is Monday morning quarterbacking again. We are again stuck with a mainstream candidate when electing Nader would have been an actual citizens response from the grass roots up as you mention.....FOR THE NEXT FOUR YEARS,... the only real change must come from the streets.

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» RE: BA Posted by: Zeugitai
Apparently relentless optimism...
Posted by: oregoncharles on May 16, 2009 8:57 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
makes for a long, productive life.

Live long and prosper, Mr. Zinn.

But it does not make for penetrating political analysis.

Note the implication: Democrats and Republicans, liberals and conservatives, all follow the same political thread - right into the ditch, this time.

So: do you get out of the ditch by following the same "thread," or by breaking it?

www.gp.org. The Green Party: we aren't liberals.

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» RE: We would regulate production, Posted by: oregoncharles
HOWARD ZINN, VISIONARY
Posted by: Dennis St. John on May 16, 2009 9:13 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He reminds me of a Biblical scripture: "In malice be ye as little children, but in understanding quit ye like men."

Say, Dr. Zinn, you wrote the book. America has been busy slaughtering people since its inception. What makes you think it will stop now? It is now and has always been profitable to wage war.

Yes, the abolitionists persisted until the slaves were set free, but a river of blood was shed to win the final outcome, and it was politically expedient for Lincoln to free the slaves in order to weaken the South (otherwise he wouldn't have bothered--he said as much himself). What followed was 100 years of terror and torture and lynchings, and discrimination continues to this very day. Even the abolitionists didn't believe that Negros were equal to whites. They were more like the SPCA than the ACLU.

I agree with you that we should keep pressing for change, but the reality is that we are on the steep, slippery slope leading to the dark abyss. Only the most hopelessly naive believe the myth of America.

Everyone seems to keep forgetting that we live in the nuclear age. Man has never invented a weapon that he hasn't used. It's just a matter of time. As the old adage illustrates: It's easy to mount a tiger; the trick is getting off.

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I BELIEVE Obama is being INTIMADATED!
Posted by: nobuko on May 16, 2009 9:19 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I honestly believe that President Obama is being INTIMADATED, and/or BLACKMAILED! WHY, he hasn't gotten RID of Gates, and ALL INDIVIDUALS who worked for Bush and Cheney is very QUESTIONABLE. As long as they are in his Administration, they will MILK the Iraqi People of most of their Black Gold, while making Afganistan the new "WEAPON of MASS DISTRACTION!"

I FURTHER believe that if Obama does not go along with Bush and Cheney's cronies, they will take his LIFE at the BLINK OF THE EYE! CHENEY is STILL RUNNING the Office of President, that's why he's out talking all this SMACK, otherwise, he would be SILENT like Bush, but as we well know, Bush was NEVER president, Cheney was, and STILL IS!

He should have REALIZED that being a Senator, but he BELIEVED being President would make a difference, NOW HE KNOWS FOR SURE, "WHO" RUNS America and the World, and its certainly NOT the President of the United States, they are NOTHING BUT PUPPETS.

Despite the fact that the Democrats do throw the People a few crumbs, whereas the Republicans won't give you a USED piece of toilet paper!

Obama IS in over his head, and there is NOT A DAMN THING he can do about it, unless he wants to LOOSE HIS LIFE, ALONG with his Families!

He KNOWS the American People are BEHIND HIM, yet he is giving into Big Business and Big Oil, and ALLOWING THEM to continue to RUN and make America into another 3rd World Country!

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» I believe you are a fool. Posted by: rafaeltoral
» RE: I believe you are a fool. Posted by: Basenjis
Draft Zinn to run for office
Posted by: greenferret on May 16, 2009 9:30 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I say it's time for a candidate we know we can trust. Draft Howard Zinn to run as the Green-Rainbow Party's candidate for governor of MA.

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» RE:It's a nice fantasy... Posted by: oregoncharles
Obi, oh no...
Posted by: particle on May 16, 2009 9:38 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama's been successfully mau-mau'd by the glorified goons and wannabe toadies who've made a profession out of lethality.

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Post-Millennial Dissent
Posted by: Jaffe on May 16, 2009 11:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, capitalist totalitarianism is global and structural and the "high" technology pushed by officialdom has many young people mesmerized and inert.

But technology can also be used against its official intentions. There are seemingly fewer seams in the network, but they are there for us to locate and intervene as necessary.

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Right on, Dr. Zinn.
Posted by: Texas Revolutionary on May 16, 2009 12:40 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems like much of what Obama has done is changing old policies, while leaving the forces and ideas that put the failed ones in place intact. It helps in the short term, but that's about it.

I feel the same way about the way he's handling the recession. President Obama is just keeping the failing system propped up, instead of trying to change the mindset that allowed speculators to gamble on this country's economic stability, saying "screw the consequences".

Even if President Obama does listen to us, he can't really change the mentality that gave us the Illegal War, or the Recession, alone. The Powers That Be won't change their course unless their own stability is threatened. That means we have to be just as active in this as we want him to be.

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Zinn & Obama
Posted by: remoran on May 16, 2009 4:56 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Howard Zinn writes like an angel. Thoughtful, perceptive and very wise. I've read Zinn for years and have learned a great deal about history, humanity and doing the right thing. What he espouses is spot on, his take on Obama in terms of intelligence is correct but his faith in Obama being an agent of change is wrong.

When Obama came into office, there was hope something of real value would be done; the financial system would change, healthcare would be single payer and saneness would be reestablished in this country. What we have is Bush lite. Surveillance is rehashed Bush using the rubric of National Security to enable AT&T and significant others to continue to spy on us. Military tribunals are to start back up, Gitmo is still alive and yes Virginia, we are not leaving Iraq. Afghanistan lurches on and the Banksters continue to steal our money using the Fed as the privately owned engine to make it happen.

I did not vote for this. I did not vote for a president bought and paid for by the banks but rather voted for someone who, I thought, would have the courage and foresight to do the right thing. I was wrong and now we face, in my opinion, the beginning stages of a revolution akin to the French Revolution where our so called leaders tell us to eat cake while they get money from the banks, corporations and lobbyists to do their bidding while telling us to go to hell.

Single payer healthcare is the overwhelming choice of Americans yet not one single payer advocate was at the table when Senator Baucus (head of the finance committee) held his fact finding meeting. (insurance companies were, big time.) When doctors and lawyers representing SP politely stood up and asked why, they were arrested. Ask Obama why he is silent on this.

The US Government is on the hook for $12.8 trillion to deal with bailouts under the auspices of the Fed, a private cartel protected by government. Ask Obama why the Fed cannot be audited. Better yet, ask him why we pay interest to the Fed when we burrow our money. Last but not least, ask Obama about the economic team he selected, the people who helped to create this mess and who profited greatly while doing so.

Ask Obama why pictures of torture cannot be published or why we bomb Pakistan or why we are in Afghanistan (the graveyard of empires) when the problems they have are theirs, not ours because the Taliban, as evil as they are, are NOT US.

It's time to take back our country before it's too late. The bailout will not work because of these reasons.

1. The CC bomb is coming
2. The commercial property bomb is coming
3. Defense budget is out of control
4. Bailouts are prop up agents. Capital is not created by burrowing, it created by innovation. The banks are zombie kept alive by the Fed stealing our money.
5. Peak oil (the price is going up and will not come down)
6. Iraq and Afghanistan costs
7. Climate change.
8. Rampant inflation due to the Fed printing money. Monetizing debt has never worked.

When the bear rally dies, the reality of the US being broke and that austerity is the name of the game will finally take hold. Because of this, Obama must take charge and chart a new course for this country or be swept aside by history because public anger is growing and rightfully so. If Obama fails in this task, people's anger will turn into rage with the end result of potentially tearing this once great nation apart.

Not a good thing but reality bites and history doesn't repeat itself, it rhymes.

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» RE: Zinn & Obama Posted by: Stogie
morgan1
Posted by: morgan1 on May 16, 2009 6:10 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree that Obama must be held accountable to who he started out as and who he has become. Voters trusted him when he talked of change but that has not been the case. He has expanded the "war" and continued the slaughter of civilians. He has done next to nothing for the destroyed middle-class, those who lost (And are continuing to lose)jobs, those who have lost the homes--Not to forget about rebuilding Louisiana and New Orleans after Katrina. He is still focused elsewhere when he needs to be focused here. He has funded those who broke this country and is still funding them with no end in sight. This not the man I voted for but he must be made to understand the current path cannot be continued. The people he has surrounded himself with must be jettisoned.We must stay active and not give up as has occurred in the past.

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Without Leverage
Posted by: Revolutionary (Direct) Democracy on May 16, 2009 6:31 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are powerless to force Obama to do ANYTHING.



Long live the international socialist revolution!

VOCA, NOW !!

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well done
Posted by: IRIQUOIS227 on May 16, 2009 7:17 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't think I can disagree with this writer. Well done!

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The rating system as a whole seems to show...
Posted by: wolfandthorns on May 16, 2009 7:27 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
a huge bias towards one side of debates. This article seems pretty ok in terms of rating fairness, but I have noticed that the ratings have been used in the past to subdue any arguments that people don't like. I have noticed this to be particularly harsh in terms the Israel-Palestine debate articles and many others. What I want to know is, what is the merit of these ratings? Do we genuinely need them to gauge debate? And finally, I am curious to see the rating system's reaction to my post.

If anyone is curious, I consider myself more of a political pragmatist, with a strong progressive slant. I happen to love AlterNet's many other merits.

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Meet the New Boss, Same as the Old Boss!
Posted by: sofla100 on May 16, 2009 8:26 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To a certain extent, I think we have been fooled again. Now, I don't believe Obama will ever fully be a Bush, of course, I mean he won't ever sink to that level, at least I hope not. But, I do believe this. Obama was, at one time, a man of vision. And perhaps, some part of him still clings to that vision. Moving America away from being overly preoccupied with military prowess, implementing universal health care, and other very progressive causes. But, you see, Obama is not debating nor campaigning anymore. He is "the man." And, the danger is that this has really gone to his head. The "secret CIA briefings," the "national security apparatus," the entire "head trip," that goes with being "a world leader." The little guy, the homeless, the uninsured, I mean, how do they compete with "national security?" You see why we have a problem?

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Change Obama's mindset? I don't think so.
Posted by: maxpayne on May 17, 2009 5:20 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Unless we all do it collectively together and this requires millions of voters, we cannot change Obama's mindset when the monied interests already have him entrenched under their control. I voted last year for him and promised myself I'd see what he does and if he really pushes for change for the better. I didn't expect much from Obama myself and was even gonna vote for Nader but on Nov 1, 2008, my wife and I gave up and changed our minds very reluctantly. Now, all we can do is see how Obama turns out in these 4 years. While I have plenty to be disappointed in him about, I realize that the control is no longer in our hands until our next presidential election and no amount of blogging will change that.

P.S.: Here's what convinced my wife and I to vote Obama:

1. I'm white and even though my wife is kinda mixed since her parents came from India although she was born here and is almost white, we had that feeling of feeling race guilty because we don't know if we'll ever get to vote a black into the White House ever again.

2. I live in VA, now a swing state, and felt like helping to turn it blue at least just once since it never voted Democrat since 1964. The Hampton Roads area where we live turned out to be dynamic and swing for the first time. Increasing the voter turnout in Northern VA and tilting Hampton Roads closer to blue would be enough to turn the state blue.

3. I liked Nader while my wife liked Mckinney. Since both had a lot in common, neither of us could really decide which to keep. We just decided to give it up and hand our votes to Obama.

4. Support for Nader in my state was minute to say the least. It was always military votes vs new voters. Seeing that Nader was getting nowhere in support, my wife and I finally gave it up.

5. Nader, or for that matter Mckinney, still had the same goons in Congress to face as would Obama. Even if Nader or Mckinney had won the presidency by some miracle, the Ds and Rs in Congress were prepared to rip that president in no time. They have the power to impeach and remove and Congress would definitely show its spine so suddenly. If that wasn't enough, the media and the courts were on their side.

6. Whatever party was competing for the White House needed support from not only Congress but also state and local level party affiliates. What has to happen is that 3rd parties need to build their infrastructure from local levels and move on up. I decided to change my focus to local level pols. Did you know that most people never ever pay attention to local elections that affect them the most? Think about it. Your mayor has a bigger impact on its voters than does a president of the country. We need to seriously improve our local election turnouts first and pay more attention to our races closest to us. From that point, we can build better state parties and leaders and eventually Washington will be within reach.

I too was a laughing stock for changing my vote on the last minute but so far my wife has calmed me down on it and reminded me of why she and I backed out on the last minute.

P.S.: I haven't voted 3rd party before but last year was my first daring attempt at it. Maybe this time, I'll get it right. I don't want Obama to fail but if he pushes me to not supporting him, I'll just sit home if there's no good 3rd party candidate to look forward to or vote 3rd party if there is.

Ok, feel free to shoot me.

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» Viva la Difference! Posted by: brianct
That Obama never existed
Posted by: aahpat on May 17, 2009 6:41 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Obama once said, 'It's not enough to get out of Iraq; we have to get out of the mindset that led us into Iraq.' What happened to that Obama?"

That Obama was a fantasy fed to gullible liberals to get them to vote for cynical authoritarian Barack Obama.

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No, Obama was just a lying SOS FROM DAY ONE
Posted by: xbj on May 17, 2009 9:19 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sack of shit. FROM DAY ONE.

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People Need To Be Eased Out Of Their Mistake
Posted by: mikeblack on May 17, 2009 10:17 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We've got to be patient with Obama supporters waking up and realizing the guy is a fraud. We can't jump all over them, their break away from believing his bullshit is going to be a slow one. Much slower than when Republicans finally broke away from Bush, since Obama supporters wanted to believe in him so badly and that his charisma will keep a lot of people under sway unlike the charmless George W. Bush.

The only good thing about all of this, is that maybe now people will finally realize that a third party is the only way to break out of the stupid "lesser of two evils" voting mindset. Unfortunately, people who feel disillusioned when they finally realize Obama is just another politician are more likely to check out of caring about politics forever. So instead of brow-beating Obama supporters starting to wake up for being ignorant, try to get them to see it as a wake up call that the Democratic party is hopeless and they should abandon it for the third party of their choice.

Honestly, it's so early in the stages we need to just work on reminding people you can still be liberal (a TRUE liberal, really) and hate the Obama admin. Because right now I'm hearing and seeing a bunch of bullshit about "If you don't support Obama you're a conservative!" After breaking them from that foolish mindset the rest will fall.

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OK FOLKS SO NOT ITS TIME TO STOP FLAPPING AND START ACTING
Posted by: cori on May 17, 2009 8:02 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Where progress has been made, wherever any kind of injustice has been overturned, it’s been because people acted as citizens, and not as politicians. They didn’t just moan. They worked, they acted, they organized, they rioted if necessary to bring their situation to the attention of people in power. And that’s what we have to do today.

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OK FOLKS SO NOW ITS TIME TO STOP FLAPPING AND START ACTING
Posted by: cori on May 17, 2009 8:03 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That’s been the story of this country. Where progress has been made, wherever any kind of injustice has been overturned, it’s been because people acted as citizens, and not as politicians. They didn’t just moan. They worked, they acted, they organized, they rioted if necessary to bring their situation to the attention of people in power. And that’s what we have to do today.

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Demonocracy or rule by demons
Posted by: brianct on May 17, 2009 9:20 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It was Gore Vidal who told us that america (and most modern 'democracies') is a one party system with 2 right wings. So dont be surprised if their policies look suspiciously alike.
You dont see this sort of behaviour with the cuban govt..thats because they have GOOD govt..all the US has is party 'democracy'.
The democrats were sinking when they lost Cynthia McKinney, about the last Democrat with sense of moral responsibility and uprightness. With her gone,,the party has shifted even further to the right.
I prefer to call what the US (and most modern 'democracies)has is Demonocracy: rule by demons.

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THAT Obama sold his house in Makebeleive Land
Posted by: Daito on May 18, 2009 2:15 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and is renting a white colonial in Realityville. Maybe more libs should look at the real estate there.

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While a great admirer of Howard Zinn . . .
Posted by: Walks-in-Storms on May 19, 2009 6:17 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While I admire Howard Zinn and his analyzes of historical events, I disagree here. Were doctors treating cancer to deliberately leave cancerous tissue in the body would be unconscionable, yet Zinn and others of his thought would do exactly that.

I hate wate as only those who have lived it can. I hate violence as only a kid who was beset continually by bullies as he recovered from polio can. But for those reasons I have practiced wrestling and judo, studied, practiced with, and packed a pistol, and "studied war" generally all my life.

You don't prevent and cure disease by irradicating and preventing fighting and immunization otherwise against it.

Come on, folks - THINK! Think in the real world, not that of the virtual reality of ideologgy. When aversion to violence and to the worst of it, war, seeks top disarm and prevent those who would stop it, the pacifist provides encouragement and support for what he would otherwise oppose.

Worse, the supposed pacifist leaves to others his responsibility. Fearful of fire, even opposed to it morally, he stands on the fire hose, or turns it off - or condemns the firemen and fire department.

Think!

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"Get your hands off my stash!"
Posted by: BlueBerry PickN on May 20, 2009 8:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Money, get away.
Get a good job with good pay and youre okay.
Money, its a gas.
Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash.
New car, caviar, four star daydream,
Think Ill buy me a football team.

Money, get back.
Im all right jack keep your hands off of my stack.
Money, its a hit.
Dont give me that do goody good bullshit.
Im in the high-fidelity first class traveling set
And I think I need a lear jet.

Money, its a crime.
Share it fairly but dont take a slice of my pie.
Money, so they say
Is the root of all evil today.
But if you ask for a raise its no surprise that theyre
Giving none away.

Huhuh! I was in the right!
Yes, absolutely in the right!
I certainly was in the right!
You was definitely in the right. that geezer was cruising for a
Bruising!
Yeah!
Why does anyone do anything?
I dont know, I was really drunk at the time!
I was just telling him, he couldnt get into number 2. he was asking
Why he wasnt coming up on freely, after I was yelling and
Screaming and telling him why he wasnt coming up on freely.
It came as a heavy blow, but we sorted the matter out
- Pink Floyd




perspective, people.


Perspective.

The Jeff Farias Show: streams FREE & LIVE Mon-Fri, 6-9pmEDT

FREE podcast

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