Tomdispatch.com / By Roane Carey
comments_imageCOMMENTS: 270

Will Israel Attack? Mixed Messages from Washington Could Lead to Catastrophe in Iran

Anything short of a categorical, even vociferous U.S. refusal of an Israeli attack could have horrific consequences.
April 13, 2009  |  
 
 
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JERUSALEM -- Israel has been steadily ratcheting up pressure on the United States concerning the grave threat allegedly posed by Iran, which seems poised to master the nuclear fuel cycle, and thus the capacity to produce nuclear weapons. The new Israeli prime minister, Likud Party hawk Benjamin Netanyahu, has warned President Barack Obama that if Washington does not quickly find a way to shut down Iran's nuclear program, Israel will.

Some analysts argue that this is manufactured hysteria, not so much a reflection of genuine Israeli fears as a purposeful diversion from other looming difficulties. The Netanyahu government is filled with hardliners adamantly opposed to withdrawal from, or even a temporary freeze on, settlements in the occupied territories, not to mention to any acceptance of Palestinian statehood. On his first day as foreign minister, extremist demagogue Avigdor Lieberman, with characteristic bluster, announced that Israel was no longer bound by the 2007 Annapolis agreements brokered by Washington, which called for accelerated negotiations toward a two-state settlement.

Such talk threatens to lead the Israelis directly into a clash with the Obama administration. In what can only be taken as a rebuttal of the Netanyahu government's recent pronouncements, in his speech to the Turkish Parliament Obama pointedly reasserted Washington's commitment to a two-state settlement and to the Annapolis understandings. So what better way for Netanyahu to avoid an ugly clash with a popular American president than to conveniently shift the discussion to an existential threat from Iran -- especially if he can successfully present it as a threat not just to Israel but to the West in general?

All of this adds up to a plausible argument against undue alarm over the latest Israeli warnings about an attack on Iran, but it's flawed on several grounds. There is a broad, generally accepted paranoia in Israel about Iran, a belief that its leaders must be stopped before they proceed much further in their uranium enrichment program. (This view is not shared on the Israeli left, but it's now a ghost of its former self.)

In an interview for TomDispatch, Ephraim Kam, deputy director of the Institute for National Security Studies in Tel Aviv and a specialist on the Iran issue, commented, "Of course there are different opinions, but there is a general consensus, among both security experts and political leaders, from Labor to the right wing. This is not a controversial issue: if Iran acquires nuclear weapons, it will pose a deep threat. It will be the first time in our history that another country can deal a major blow to Israel."

Kam hastens to add that, in his own view, the scenario Netanyahu proposes -- that Iran is led by irrational fanatics who would nuke Israel at the first chance, even knowing that an Israeli nuclear counterstrike would be swift and catastrophic -- is false. "Iran is a pragmatic, logical player," Kam says. He remains convinced that "even a radical fundamentalist regime" wouldn't attack Israel, but he adds, "This is just my assessment, and assessments can go wrong. I wrote a study on wrong assessments, so I know something about this." In other words, if Kam's claims about the Israeli consensus are correct, the country's leadership takes it for granted that Iran is indeed hell-bent on producing a nuclear weapon and is not inclined to take a chance that a nuclear Iran will play by the MAD (as in mutually assured destruction) rules hammered out by the two Cold War superpowers decades ago and never use it.

This attitude reflects a longstanding Israeli strategic principle: that no neighboring state or combination of states can ever be allowed to achieve anything faintly approaching military parity, because if they do, they will try to destroy the Jewish state. By this logic, Israel's only option is to establish and then maintain absolute military superiority over its neighbors; they will, so this view goes, accept Israel's presence only if they know they're sure to be defeated, or at least vastly outmatched.

This is the famous "iron wall," conceived by early Zionist leader Vladimir Jabotinsky more than 80 years ago, well before the founding of Israel itself. (Jabotinsky founded the Revisionist movement, which in opposition to the Labor mainstream refused to accept any territorial compromise regarding Zionist aims, such as partition. Although he and his followers were for years shut out of the political leadership, their views regarding Israel's neighbors became deeply lodged in the public psyche.) If Iran were to acquire the capacity to build even one nuke -- Israel itself is estimated to have 150-200 of them -- that iron wall would be considered seriously breached, and the country might no longer be able to dictate terms to its neighbors. Given Iran's support for Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in Gaza, Israel would then have to recalibrate its strategy both on its northern front and vis-à-vis the Palestinians.


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Roane Carey, on leave as managing editor of the Nation magazine, is on a journalism fellowship at the Chaim Herzog Center for Middle East Studies and Diplomacy at Ben-Gurion University in Beer-Sheva, Israel. He is co-editor of The Other Israel (New Press).
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do the math
[Report this comment]
Posted by: orionsan on Apr 13, 2009 1:02 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
there is a simpler calculus to all of this, it is the build up of weaponry for the engagement.

these attacks don't happen overnight, they are planned out and prepared for months in advance. look at what is being shipped to israel on the US dime over the last few months, that is what they will be using this summer on iran to pin our troops in iraq where they want them to be.

too many irrational numbers in that calculus for my taste.

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» for example Posted by: orionsan
» Get a life... Posted by: laoma
» Get a life Ruth Posted by: johnwinthrop
» Putting up with Jews Posted by: barefeet
» RE: Putting up with morons. Posted by: yellow
» Moi? Posted by: johnwinthrop
» Sorry, You are Mistaken Posted by: johnwinthrop

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"Special relationship"
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Blacktiger1 on Apr 13, 2009 1:24 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am very disturbed about the attitude of all journalists who think that Israel should or does have a special relationship with the USA and by that also with Canada. As a Canadian citizen, I, as a taxpayer better not find that any of my taxes are spent on the warmongering Zionists.
If Israel wants to bully Iran they had better do it under their own power, and keep any "fallout" within their own airspace.

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» RE: "Special relationship" Posted by: plillies
» RE: "Special relationship" Posted by: CHOSEN WORLD OUR WAR ON ISLAM & OUR OWN FREEDOMS
» pale yellow Posted by: weathered

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Iran is not a threat to anyone!
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Javan on Apr 13, 2009 2:10 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Israel is a threat to everyone. 94% of Israelis agreed and approved of the massacre in Gaza so only 6% of the people there are sane! That is a bloodthirsty bunch or butchers and they need to be disarmed of their weapons of mass destruction before they destroy the whole world.

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» Netanyahu was inserted Posted by: weathered
» RE: Wanna disarm Iran? Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: Wanna disarm Iran? Posted by: babs
» RE: Screw ISRAEL! Posted by: sasquuatch55
» RE: Screw ISRAEL! Posted by: yellow

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isn't the arms trade pulling the strings?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Suzon on Apr 13, 2009 2:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My theory is that the ME is all about money-laundering. Money is taken from the taxpayer to finance the "defense" industry. Money is taken from the taxpayer and sent to Israel. Israel spends the money on "defense" (and concrete walls).

Cui bono? The weapon makers benefit. The contractors benefit.

Hatred in the Middle East has to be promoted and maintained for the sake of profit-making.

Take the profit out of war and take the profit out of conflict and you have peace.

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If Israel is so Warlike, Why Didn't She Destroy Iran Years Ago?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: jbpazz on Apr 13, 2009 2:54 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Israel has never waged a preemptive war. Yet, the Arab smear machine has convinced AlterNet's astute readers Israelis are bloodthirsty Zionists and savage butchers with citizens 94% insane. If Alternet's writers read factual information before they wrote, the intelligence assessment is that 42 Jericho ballistic missiles armed with CONVENTIONAL warheads can take out Iran's nuclear capacity without vaporizing innocent civilians. Israel has endured almost constant bombardment from the proxies of Iran for a number of years. Even AlterNet should be able to define who is the aggressor here.

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» RE: If Israel is so Warlike, etc. Posted by: Fempatriot
» Well Said!!!!! Posted by: gerty954
» RE: If Israel is so Warlike, Why Didn't She Destroy Iran Years Ago? Posted by: CHOSEN WORLD OUR WAR ON ISLAM & OUR OWN FREEDOMS
» And that creates nuclear fallout Posted by: JoshuaLudd

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Israel cancer
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Perry Logan on Apr 13, 2009 3:19 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Israel is a cancer on the world.

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» RE: Israel cancer Posted by: nmeyer
» No hope for America Posted by: barefeet
» RE: Israel cancer Posted by: johnwinthrop
» RE: Israel cancer Posted by: yellow
» RE: Israel & the 2 state solution Posted by: Fempatriot
» Israel Who? Posted by: johnwinthrop

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I LOVE JIHAD!!
[Report this comment]
Posted by: TrollTreason on Apr 13, 2009 4:00 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
IRRADIATE WHOMEVER IMMEDIATELY

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» RE: I LOVE JIHAD!! Posted by: jpom22

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Yahu's got his own 'Golden Ticket' to the Rapture Bus?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Purple Girl on Apr 13, 2009 4:27 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This would be nothing short of a suicide mission- the entire middle east would be ignited into utter chaos, violence between countries and also between countrymen.
Worse yet the Isreali Gov't is banking on a few mere decades that Christians (Catholics) have finally stopped blaming the Cruxification of Christ on the Jews.Funny the Catholic church claims it hasn't held that idea for about 1/2 century- yet when I was being indoctrinated (35yrs) that is exactly what I was taught- they may want to tell their Clergy.They Don't call themselves the Holy Roman Catholic Church for nothing, folks.
Even more disgusting are the 'Evangelicals' who claim to be 'Friends of Isreal', yet hold an apocalyptic doctrine which only grants 144,000 CONVERTED Jews as 'golden ticket' on Thehir Rapture Bus- sucks to be the 144,001st ah? Or one who still adheres to your own ancient religious Doctrines, Y'all will be suffering with the rest of us apparently when THEY kick off the festivities. Obviously if they can't convince you with scripture- they'll scare you into submission by literally making this a 'Limited Time Offer'.I wouldn't be putting my Faith in any of these 'Christians' to have your back on this one- they'll lead you in then ride way, suits their self Serving true ideology( retribution for 'killing Christ' or to secure the Big Cookie payoff in the sky)
We need squelch our own Bat shit people...Like someone who sings 'Bomb, bomb, bomb Iran', or is titiilated by the idea we could 'Obliterate Iran',or Who claims 'Preemptively Stirking Iran' would facilitate the 'Second Coming'. Hint if we do not set the wheels in motion then there would be no need for 'Gods Wrath'- much like if the people had not been so 'sinful' His son would not needed to be Sacrificed. Why the Hell do they Call it 'Good Friday' what was so damn 'good' about it? Humans failed to follow 10 easy commandments and someone was tortured and murdered!So we should look forward to doing it basically all over again- that is some twisted fucked up shit!
So Yahu- stop trying to screw up every possiblity of sparing your people more misery and heartache. Iran is not marching into your territory, enslaving your people or rounding them up for a 'shower'.You got one loud mouth who isn't even the leader of a country talking shit. Who not only doesn't have nukes- but also not a resounding majority's support- In fact may be voted out within the year. all ya got is some discontents who are essentially lobbing over exploding sticks and stones. Perhaps if you stopped invading their territory and holding them hostage- they might stop.
Yahu was a war mongering sociopath the last time he held power- Did the Bushies send over their election riggers to Isreal (considering most hold Duel citizenships)? Re-elections of such dangerous leaders should raise suspecions to the legitimacy of the process.that's something to investigate How many of those who Refuse to pledge their allegience solely to Our country worked on Yahu's Re- election campaign? Also operate with in the Isreali Gov't.Duel citizenship alone smacks of Treason- what about official duties within a foreign gov't?

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» typical liberal selective hearing Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
» The Right to Self Defense Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» That is funny.... Posted by: Prophit

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Predictions Realized
[Report this comment]
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on Apr 13, 2009 5:11 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Only a few months ago, Obama detractors were predicting that the new president would be tested by foreign governments to see whether he could be pushed around. Of course we were supposed to think of the test coming from Russia, China, Korea or maybe Venezuela.

At that time, who understood that it would be Israel setting a trap to see to what degree Obama could be pushed around?

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» RE: Predictions Realized Posted by: jal64
» Detractors Posted by: ProgressiveManiac

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What would our elected leaders response to an Israeli attack look like? Let's look back...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: ExposeTheIsraelLobby on Apr 13, 2009 5:50 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
July 19, 2006 - Congress Is Giving Israel Vote of Confidence

Democratic and Republican congressional leaders are rushing to offer unalloyed support for Israel's offensive against Hezbollah fighters, reflecting a bipartisan desire to not only defend a key U.S. ally but also solidify long-term backing of Jewish voters and political donors in the United States, according to officials and strategists in both parties.

With Israel intensifying its air and artillery attacks on Lebanon and warning of a protracted war, the Senate yesterday unanimously passed a bipartisan resolution endorsing Israel's military campaign and condemning Hezbollah and its two backers, Iran and Syria. A few hours earlier, Senate Minority Leader Harry M. Reid (D-Nev) delivered his most strident defense of Israel since the conflict erupted a week ago. The House is expected to pass a similarly pro-Israel resolution today.

At the same time, several candidates in highly competitive races are touting their unequivocal backing of Israel. Rep. E. Clay Shaw Jr. (R-Fla), who faces a tough reelection race against a Jewish Democrat, introduced his own resolution charging that "both Syria and Iran are directly responsible for this act of terrorism and should be held accountable." In Minnesota, Rep. Mark Kennedy, the Republican Senate candidate, is criticizing what his campaign calls Democratic candidate Amy Klobuchar's "deafening silence" on the conflict, calling her a "timid soul." Klobuchar, however, has staked out a similarly pro-Israel position.

Republican National Committee Chairman Ken Mehlman punctuated the day with a speech to Christians United for Israel last night, declaring that "today, we are all Israelis."

[...]

"There is no danger for the candidates," said Rep. James P. Moran Jr. (D-Va.), adding that those politicians "will get rewarded politically and financially for being out front in their support."

Moran said, however, that the outpouring of political support could prove dangerous for Israel. That's because Israeli officials "know they can only go as far as the United States backs them," and the flurry of pro-Israel activity "can encourage their leadership to overreach and create situations that become more problematic," he said.

Moran was forced to apologize three years ago for blaming U.S. Jews for pushing the country into the Iraq war.

washingtonpost.com

Journalist Philip Weiss on the Neoconservative agenda:

"In terms of their politics, they were almost all Democrats and then as soon as the Democratic party suggested that it wasn't going to have a strong military, Norman Podhoretz and Irving Kristol, the grandfathers of this movement, they went Republican. Why? Because they said, back in the 70's, a strong American military is needed to protect Israel."

Download an mp3 of Phil saying the above here (9:45 minutes in)
Antiwar.com/Radio - 07/12/2008
Antiwar.com/Radio - 03/18/2009

Watch the BBC documentary "The War Party", part 1 of 5

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This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.

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Does Iran have the Cajones?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: mrcentrist on Apr 13, 2009 6:28 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Does Iran have the -- shall we say it -- cajones to retaliate against Israel should Israel attack Iran? This is doubtful, as Israel has nuclear weapons (it's an open secret), and they also have the military and diplomatic backing of the United States. If need be, President Obama would institute conscription in the United States, and he could deploy millions of young men and women to Iraq. Iraq could be used as a base from which America could launch waves of infantry, tanks, etc. into the Iranian homeland.

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» RE: You're joking Posted by: channing
» Israel Never Attacks First Posted by: jbpazz
» RE: Israel Never Attacks First Posted by: robert.noll

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Israel has waited long enough
[Report this comment]
Posted by: nozz on Apr 13, 2009 7:03 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Israel should relax because it is "within the realm of possibility" that the USA can sweettalk Iran out of building nukes? No responsible government can excuse inaction on grounds that survival is in any case "within the realm of possibility." Iranian technology has already passed one point of no return after another, while the diplomats respond by crossing out old deadlines and pencilling in new ones. At this rate, soon they'll be telling Israel "Yes, Iran is pointing nuclear missiles at you, but wait till we're sure we can't talk them out of firing."

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» RE: Israel has waited long enough Posted by: robert.noll

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irans nuclear
[Report this comment]
Posted by: daveysabboi on Apr 13, 2009 7:12 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
i believe Iran IS a threat to the USA they just
want the bomb to blast Israel. Israel is aware
of this.
WE can not afford to let them have it. it will
be tantamount to al quada having the bomb too.
sorry everyone, but iam not in favour of a nuclear iran, period

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» RE: irans nuclear Posted by: Quannah
» RE: irans nuclear Posted by: yellow
» RE: Liar! Posted by: channing
» RE: irans nuclear Posted by: chomsky
» RE: irans nuclear Posted by: donl51
» RE: irans nuclear Posted by: using
» RE: irans nuclear Posted by: moflard

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dick
[Report this comment]
Posted by: rtmyth on Apr 13, 2009 7:28 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Israel is considered by world opinion to be the most dangerous to world peace, with good reason. One only need look at the religious teachings of this theocracy to see endless war upon their neighbors as demanded by their god.

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» RE: dick Posted by: alive
» Israel is not a theocracy. Posted by: Philip Newton
» Anything that inserts Netanyahu Posted by: weathered

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Time to wake up
[Report this comment]
Posted by: sawdust on Apr 13, 2009 7:52 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Netanyahu and Liberman need to lead the Israelis on an awareness campaign. They all need to wake up and realize that there is an entire world surrounding them and that it will be horrendously affected by any rash actions they chose to take against Iran. Of course that would require Netanyahu and Lieberman to wake up first, and they are both comotose.

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» RE: Time to wake up Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Time to wake up Posted by: weathered
» RE: Time to wake up Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Time to wake up Posted by: weathered

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unlikely, considering ...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: J4761 on Apr 13, 2009 8:05 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Washington could work out a grand bargain with Tehran terminating its policy of regime change and ending sanctions in return for Tehran's vow never to weaponize its nuclear program."

Tehran has already explicitly and implicitly ruled out ever trying to weaponize its nuclear program, officially and publicly, via its assent to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, which Isreal refuses to do, and which most western powers refuse to respect or even recognize in respect of Iran. Iran is well within its rights to pursue nuclear power, moreso even than India, Israel and Pakistan, none of whom have assented to the NNPT.

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Speculations
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Posted by: Urgelt on Apr 13, 2009 8:22 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is a very speculative article, which is fine - we should be gaming out the possibilities and thinking about how we should act or react.

To that end I will take issue with the article twice: once for a point made that is probably in error, and once for a point neglected.

First, the probable error. I think you can trust the Department of Defense to recognize the danger of permitting Israel to overfly Iraq on a mission to bomb Iran. Two-thirds of the Iraqi population is Shi'ite, as is most of Iran's. Iraq's Shi'ites aren't exactly lockstep followers of the Iranian mullahs, but neither are they going to ignore something as outlandish as the US permitting Israel to overfly Iraq to bomb their cousins. They will go ballistic, and the DoD knows it. Add in the retaliations which Iran itself is capable of, and it's a big, big headache. We'd either have to drastically escalate just to keep a toehold, or run with our tail between our legs. Neither is an appealing outcome from DoD's perspective. And they're smart enough to grasp it, now that a comparatively sane and pragmatic Secretary is in charge there.

The point neglected by the article is that Israel can attack Iran without crossing Iraq's airspace with its bombers.

In the US we have "big bombers on the brain." We call air strikes to resolve a guy with a pickup planting a roadside bomb, for crying out loud. Israel feels no such bias.

I'm not going to talk about tactical options. Speculate for yourself if you want to. I'll just leave it at this: there are other ways. Don't think for a minute Israel isn't considering every damn one of them.

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» DOD cannot be trusted Posted by: leafsong1

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Endless war is good for business!
[Report this comment]
Posted by: edgeofnowhere on Apr 13, 2009 8:24 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"It should go without saying that an Israeli attack on Iran would have disastrous consequences. No matter what Washington might claim, or how vociferously officials there denounce it, such an attack would be widely understood throughout the Muslim world as a joint U.S.-Israeli operation."

Hey, this is just what the war monger elites WANT to happen! Disaster is their game! Besides, the Americans are getting bored with the old Al Qaida threat and need a NEW enemy around which they can be galvanized. It is well recognized in Islamic circles that the US/British governments are, despite Obama's overtures, at war with Islam itself.

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Some questions
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Posted by: willymack on Apr 13, 2009 8:32 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Who's REALLY in charge around here, anyway? How far does that "authority" extend? It seems that whoever's in charge is insane or rapidly going that way. Who's the genius that said "it's all right for us and a few selected friends to have nuclear power and the capability to produce nuclear weapons if so desired"? Who's the final arbiter of what's right or wrong? What moral authority do we, or any other nation claim to issue judgements regarding other nations' policies? How smart is humankind, considering the precarious state we're all in, what with overpopulation, rampant greed, crooked politicians, ecological degradation, and all the other problems we've created for ourselves? Whoever claims to be the final authority regarding what's right and proper for humankind needs to be institutionalized, in my opinion.

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» RE: Some questions Posted by: alive
» RE: Some answers Posted by: Fempatriot

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The entire world knows that Israel would never entertain -----
[Report this comment]
Posted by: symcokid on Apr 13, 2009 8:37 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
such a thought such as using their inordinate Military might and arsenal to devastate Iran's nuclear development plans. If Israel were to be so brazen then their own illegal Dimona Nuclear Facilities would be fair game for any other of their enemies to blast into oblivion.

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» Iraq was different Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Iraq was different Posted by: leafsong1

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Look at the Map.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: oregoncharles on Apr 13, 2009 8:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There's a big problem with this article: it ignores the map.

Look again: an Israeli attack would have to cross either BOTH Jordan and Iraq, or Turkey, or Saudi Arabia. Or more ocean than they have the planes for. The article discusses the Iraq option, physically the easiest, because that one depends on the US (and either Jordan or Syria - both enemies).

Does anyone think they could overfly Saudi Arabia on the way to Iran? They have military superiority, but not that kind. Turkey is an ally, but shaky, and not to the degree of allowing them to start WWIII.

The big tipoff would be if Israel acquires planes that could make the ocean trip (and back). In that case, only the US Navy stands in the way, and we're back to the considerations in the article.

In short: I think the Israelis are blowing smoke. I suppose some of them are crazy enough to do it, but they don't have a record of suicide missions. Israel has domestic politics, too, and it's politicians we're hearing from. It's still worthwhile to make sure Americans don't give them the go-ahead, but I'm not convinced that this is an urgent issue.

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» RE: Look at the Map. Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Look at the Map. Posted by: laoma
» RE: True, but... Posted by: oregoncharles

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I SAY GO FOR IT..ISRAEL
[Report this comment]
Posted by: donl51 on Apr 13, 2009 8:56 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
go around Iraq,do your thing and if It reflects on the USA...we leave the entire area,and the Israellis who already feel they can run our country,can take care of their own godamned selves!!....they don't own us,they don't threaten us,they don't tell us what to do...they'd be dead if it weren't for the USA,...enough is enough!...no more subsistance allowance!....what the fuck have they done for us lately?...they'll no doupt resort to nukes themselves...they were real good at chastizing the South Africaners about apartheid while they themselves practice it on a regular basis...you need help!..you don't tell,you ask!and I'd say ''go pound sand''...btw we have no say where our tax dollars go...more than likely they're used to pay the interest on our loans...so we can give money to pricks like Israel...call me anti-semetic...look up the word first!...semite..am I anti jew?...not at all.am I anti-Israel?...absofuckinglutely!

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building reality to conform with peaceful solutions
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Posted by: using on Apr 13, 2009 9:00 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Good article. Well written and argued.

After all, Iran is willing to have a two state union.....

.oh wait ....

.Iran's leadership has clearly stated ...that THEY DO NOT NOW NOR WILL THEY EVER ACCEPT ISRAEL'S RIGHT TO STATEHOOD.... So, is it paronoid for Israel to fear Iran's ability to produce Nuclear weapons.

What's the worry?...if need be Iran and Gazian leaders will control the people they have taught to hate Israel

.....oh wait....

from Arafat on they have proclaimed: "they want peace, however, they cannot control the terrorists who live comfortably amongst their people from targeting Israeli civilians."
And they have proven how little they value human life even of their own citizens.
Well, then if these two facts are true: how can Isreal, who is in the first line of fire, and the western world who will surely follow...trust Iran and the groups they support with Nuclear capabilities?

And should America and Western civilization fear Iran's nucleer capabilities....HO?...after all...Iran values Americans and their efforts......

oh wait..

..they said "America is evil and will crumble from the inside"

So it appears that this well reasoned, well written arguement...has set up a hypothesis that completely omits the baseline threat from its discussion. And like any well reasoned geometric logic, the conclusion the article draws is dependent on the hypothesis. And since the hypothesis omits the baseline reality....it is flawed not in its reasoning but in its conclusion.

So, this article begs the quesstion: what is the author's motive for setting up an arguement that distorts truth rather than mitigates a peaceful solution? Can we be so easily seduced into blindly building a future that is in our least best interest?

I agree that war is not the answer. And I challenge the media and readership to stop growing hate and start brain storming workable, peace building solutions.

Oh and by the way, I thought we (Obama's) aim was to protect our future by creating a safer, healtier haven for its populace. To accomplish this we clearly must find a way to mitigate the danger of nuclear waste. And until we accomplish this task we must control the use of muclear energy. IF Iran wants peaceful solutions for energy...why not explore solar and wind?

And also, I was under the impression that Obama was working to control the dangers of nuclear weapons by narrowing its stockpile of weaponry. And opening up new areas in which nuclear weapons and energy will grow is clearly not the answer to a greener, healthier, safer world - especially in the hands of those that believe:
that Western civiliztion is evil
that human life is not valuable.
that women do not have rights.
that free thought and diversity are unacceptable.

Is a state which stands firm on these beliefs and holds the power of nuclear capability not to be feared by all who wish the opportunity for mankind to grow more humane?

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» Let's examine your "logic". Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: to debate part 2 Posted by: using

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If the US should convince ANYBODY here, it should be ISRAEL
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Quannah on Apr 13, 2009 10:36 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We have no pull with Iran. None. Sure, we're now making overtures to Iran that have never been made -- direct talks. But what makes anyone think Iran would listen to anything we have to say on this matter?

The only way to stop this from happening is to shut off the never ending spigot of arms and weapons systems and money to ISRAEL.

It's our only hope. And, sadly, it's not going to happen.

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» RE: dear Quannah Posted by: using
» good one... Posted by: mjglow

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Good article
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Philip Newton on Apr 13, 2009 12:59 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thought-provoking.

With "Bibi" in power, nothing is out of the question.

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» Bibi ? How un cute. Posted by: weathered

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Who calls the shots
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Posted by: brian boru on Apr 13, 2009 2:03 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Israel for all it's bluster is a small state armed with nuclear weapons. It has a barely functioning economy. The media likes to pretend that Israel tells the US government what to do. The US government always, I repeat always instructs Israel of it's intentions. Under Bush, Israel was given a free reign in Gaza and Lebanon but even under Bush were categorically told not to bomb Iran.
Under Obama they follow the same instructions vis-a- vis Iran.
Israel is pretty much despised everywhere in the world even in many quarters here in the USA. If Israel were to bomb Iran at the present time it would change everything and would make it impossible for future US governments to agree with the world that Israel can no longer trusted.

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Who calls the shots
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Posted by: brian boru on Apr 13, 2009 2:06 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Israel for all it's bluster is a small state armed with nuclear weapons. It has a barely functioning economy. The media likes to pretend that Israel tells the US government what to do. The US government always, I repeat always instructs Israel of it's intentions. Under Bush, Israel was given a free reign in Gaza and Lebanon but even under Bush were categorically told not to bomb Iran.
Under Obama they follow the same instructions vis-a- vis Iran.
Israel is pretty much despised everywhere in the world even in many quarters here in the USA. If Israel were to bomb Iran at the present time it would change everything and would make it impossible for future US governments to DISAGREE with the world that Israel can no longer trusted.

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israel's nukes
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Posted by: tazdelaney on Apr 13, 2009 2:29 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
we almost never see mention of the fact that israel has nukes. by accounts, at least 330 nuclear weapons, plus an arsenal of other WMDs, including CBWs.

the major expose-master, seymour hersh, without whom we may never have learned of my lai, abu graib, the cheney assassination ring and many more grisly secrets of our terrorist government... in his 1980s book, 'the samson option' first addressed the usg proliferation of nukes and other weapons to israel. israel put the israeli nuclear tech whistleblower in prison for many years and still harasses him for his disclosures.

a national security regulation for decades denied the right of any usg official to speak about israel's nukes or who gave them to israel in the first place. the first time i saw such a public admission was in early 2008 and was made by no less than DoD chief gates.

the usg has hundreds of times used its UN security council veto to over-ride virtually unanimous censures of israel therein. in truth, it is the usg which should be so censured for it's war crimes, which are enormously larger than those of israel...

but what we see is that the US, EU and NATO all abide the party line without admitting to any hypocrisy. if iran is to be denounced for its weapons development, how about israel? how about the other criminal organizations with WMDs and aren't all nations with WMDs actually criminals?

ahmedinedaj is an insane and brutal tyrant but so are olmert/netanyahu or george bush. and obama aint looking no better, what with continuing the 'rendition' torture program, the wars, etcetera. so there is an obvious need for all parties who are warring and developing weapons to be shut down 'by whatever means necessary,' as malcolm x said.

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memo to graphics department.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: remo on Apr 13, 2009 3:39 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Your map illustrators forgot to 'arrow' in the air bases Israel has negotiated in GEORGIA, up there at top of map. They'd just fly-boy straight on down. boom-boom. save a couple of hours fly time.
Sorry?? you didn't know Israel was involved in the Georgian conflict??? Oh. Ok. Mums the word.

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» RE: More info? Posted by: oregoncharles

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Criminal Armageddon
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Posted by: ceti on Apr 13, 2009 3:51 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lieberman is a fascist thug with strong ties to the Russian mafia. He is now foreign minister. The former Israeli president (Katsav) was charged with rape and the former prime minister (Olmert) is a crook. Many of the billionaire American businessmen who have given millions to Zionist charities and causes are also massively implicated in the US financial crisis.

Will Armageddon happen because Israel's political class is so corrupt and the American political class so craven (and also corrupt), that they would risk everything to divert attention from their own criminal misdeeds?

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» RE: Criminal Armageddon Posted by: using

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outsiders
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Posted by: Archie1954 on Apr 13, 2009 6:21 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Outsiders have only so much they can accomplish in the Middle East. Any problems there must be settled by the actual parties involved. Sure pressure from outside can have some effect but only the actual residents of the Middle East can participate in peace. It really can't be imposed from outside for any extended length of time. The question is whether or not Israel and Palestine desire peace? If they do, then it can happen with assistance from outside, assistance applied equally to both parties. No favoritism to either side, no pressure from certain well funded lobby groups on Congressional leaders for a blank cheque for any side. Bona fide negotiations between all parties is the only way.

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This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.

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Proxy War
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Posted by: Revolutionary (Direct) Democracy on Apr 13, 2009 11:58 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama can't keep limping along from one pirate episode to another forever. Without a major conflagration to squeeze the cash giveaway out of the headlines his administration is living on borrowed time.


FREE AMERICA

REVOLUTIONARY (DIRECT) DEMOCRACY

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"Iran is a pragmatic, logical player"
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Posted by: LocalMan on Apr 14, 2009 2:20 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Iran is a pragmatic, logical player"

Iran makes holocaust denial a national policy.

Iran hid it's nuclear development from the IAEA.

Iran violates the non-proliferation agreement it signed.

Iran claimed it's nuclear development was for generating electricity -- while it developed ICBM's. ICBM's are useless without weapons of mass destruction.

Iran repeatedly threatens to wipe out Israel.

Iran provides arms and support to Hamas and Hezbollah.

Neither the US nor Israel ever attacked the Islamic government of Iran -- and they've had 30 years since the Iranian Revolution in 1979 that took power with taking US hostages.

It was the US that took down Iran's real enemy, Saddam Hussein.

Stop treating the Iranian government as if they are normal, sane people. They are not.

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helt rigs
[Report this comment]
Posted by: freddik on Apr 16, 2009 11:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
commons file directory: back

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Israel kills ONE Russian advisor in Iran and Israel's nuked off the face of the earth
[Report this comment]
Posted by: xbj on Apr 18, 2009 1:21 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That would be pretty stupid, and suicidal, and fundamentalist, wouldn't you think? If I was Putin and ONE of my citizens were killed, I wouldn't hesitate to nuclearly correct the worlds' most stupid 20th Century mistake, made in 1948. With everything I had. And not worry a single second about US retaliation. From Obama? B*tch, puleeeaze.

And if Israel thinks they're going to make a phone call and Russian advisors are going to leave, they're really nuts.

Word to the wise: EMIGRATE. TO ANYWHERE AS LONG AS IT'S OUT OF THE MIDEAST. NOW.

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Urban Myth #3
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Posted by: Urban Myth #3 on Apr 18, 2009 7:15 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Might just be a disaster for Israel too - they want to think about Peace a little more face-on. Dabbling in war is a wheel that turns.....don't join the army - join a Circus!

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Do any of you remember Adlph Hitler?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Opinionator on Apr 20, 2009 1:35 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He blamed the Jews for everything that was wrong or troubled in all of Europe and murdered 6 million Jews, as well as gays,Catholics and others. Too many of you sound like a return to Fascism. Bad, Bad news. Are some of you Hitler redux?

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$^$#^
[Report this comment]
Posted by: itouch backup on May 7, 2009 10:56 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
_________________________
Video Converter OS X

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Alternet Comments:

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do the math
[Report this comment]
Posted by: orionsan on Apr 13, 2009 1:02 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
there is a simpler calculus to all of this, it is the build up of weaponry for the engagement.

these attacks don't happen overnight, they are planned out and prepared for months in advance. look at what is being shipped to israel on the US dime over the last few months, that is what they will be using this summer on iran to pin our troops in iraq where they want them to be.

too many irrational numbers in that calculus for my taste.

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» for example Posted by: orionsan
» Get a life... Posted by: laoma
» Get a life Ruth Posted by: johnwinthrop
» Putting up with Jews Posted by: barefeet
» RE: Putting up with morons. Posted by: yellow
» Moi? Posted by: johnwinthrop
» Sorry, You are Mistaken Posted by: johnwinthrop

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"Special relationship"
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Blacktiger1 on Apr 13, 2009 1:24 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am very disturbed about the attitude of all journalists who think that Israel should or does have a special relationship with the USA and by that also with Canada. As a Canadian citizen, I, as a taxpayer better not find that any of my taxes are spent on the warmongering Zionists.
If Israel wants to bully Iran they had better do it under their own power, and keep any "fallout" within their own airspace.

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» RE: "Special relationship" Posted by: plillies
» RE: "Special relationship" Posted by: CHOSEN WORLD OUR WAR ON ISLAM & OUR OWN FREEDOMS
» pale yellow Posted by: weathered

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Iran is not a threat to anyone!
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Javan on Apr 13, 2009 2:10 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Israel is a threat to everyone. 94% of Israelis agreed and approved of the massacre in Gaza so only 6% of the people there are sane! That is a bloodthirsty bunch or butchers and they need to be disarmed of their weapons of mass destruction before they destroy the whole world.

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» Netanyahu was inserted Posted by: weathered
» RE: Wanna disarm Iran? Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: Wanna disarm Iran? Posted by: babs
» RE: Screw ISRAEL! Posted by: sasquuatch55
» RE: Screw ISRAEL! Posted by: yellow

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isn't the arms trade pulling the strings?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Suzon on Apr 13, 2009 2:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My theory is that the ME is all about money-laundering. Money is taken from the taxpayer to finance the "defense" industry. Money is taken from the taxpayer and sent to Israel. Israel spends the money on "defense" (and concrete walls).

Cui bono? The weapon makers benefit. The contractors benefit.

Hatred in the Middle East has to be promoted and maintained for the sake of profit-making.

Take the profit out of war and take the profit out of conflict and you have peace.

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If Israel is so Warlike, Why Didn't She Destroy Iran Years Ago?
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Posted by: jbpazz on Apr 13, 2009 2:54 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Israel has never waged a preemptive war. Yet, the Arab smear machine has convinced AlterNet's astute readers Israelis are bloodthirsty Zionists and savage butchers with citizens 94% insane. If Alternet's writers read factual information before they wrote, the intelligence assessment is that 42 Jericho ballistic missiles armed with CONVENTIONAL warheads can take out Iran's nuclear capacity without vaporizing innocent civilians. Israel has endured almost constant bombardment from the proxies of Iran for a number of years. Even AlterNet should be able to define who is the aggressor here.

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» RE: If Israel is so Warlike, etc. Posted by: Fempatriot
» Well Said!!!!! Posted by: gerty954
» RE: If Israel is so Warlike, Why Didn't She Destroy Iran Years Ago? Posted by: CHOSEN WORLD OUR WAR ON ISLAM & OUR OWN FREEDOMS
» And that creates nuclear fallout Posted by: JoshuaLudd

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Israel cancer
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Posted by: Perry Logan on Apr 13, 2009 3:19 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Israel is a cancer on the world.

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» RE: Israel cancer Posted by: nmeyer
» No hope for America Posted by: barefeet
» RE: Israel cancer Posted by: johnwinthrop
» RE: Israel cancer Posted by: yellow
» RE: Israel & the 2 state solution Posted by: Fempatriot
» Israel Who? Posted by: johnwinthrop

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I LOVE JIHAD!!
[Report this comment]
Posted by: TrollTreason on Apr 13, 2009 4:00 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
IRRADIATE WHOMEVER IMMEDIATELY

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» RE: I LOVE JIHAD!! Posted by: jpom22

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Yahu's got his own 'Golden Ticket' to the Rapture Bus?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Purple Girl on Apr 13, 2009 4:27 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This would be nothing short of a suicide mission- the entire middle east would be ignited into utter chaos, violence between countries and also between countrymen.
Worse yet the Isreali Gov't is banking on a few mere decades that Christians (Catholics) have finally stopped blaming the Cruxification of Christ on the Jews.Funny the Catholic church claims it hasn't held that idea for about 1/2 century- yet when I was being indoctrinated (35yrs) that is exactly what I was taught- they may want to tell their Clergy.They Don't call themselves the Holy Roman Catholic Church for nothing, folks.
Even more disgusting are the 'Evangelicals' who claim to be 'Friends of Isreal', yet hold an apocalyptic doctrine which only grants 144,000 CONVERTED Jews as 'golden ticket' on Thehir Rapture Bus- sucks to be the 144,001st ah? Or one who still adheres to your own ancient religious Doctrines, Y'all will be suffering with the rest of us apparently when THEY kick off the festivities. Obviously if they can't convince you with scripture- they'll scare you into submission by literally making this a 'Limited Time Offer'.I wouldn't be putting my Faith in any of these 'Christians' to have your back on this one- they'll lead you in then ride way, suits their self Serving true ideology( retribution for 'killing Christ' or to secure the Big Cookie payoff in the sky)
We need squelch our own Bat shit people...Like someone who sings 'Bomb, bomb, bomb Iran', or is titiilated by the idea we could 'Obliterate Iran',or Who claims 'Preemptively Stirking Iran' would facilitate the 'Second Coming'. Hint if we do not set the wheels in motion then there would be no need for 'Gods Wrath'- much like if the people had not been so 'sinful' His son would not needed to be Sacrificed. Why the Hell do they Call it 'Good Friday' what was so damn 'good' about it? Humans failed to follow 10 easy commandments and someone was tortured and murdered!So we should look forward to doing it basically all over again- that is some twisted fucked up shit!
So Yahu- stop trying to screw up every possiblity of sparing your people more misery and heartache. Iran is not marching into your territory, enslaving your people or rounding them up for a 'shower'.You got one loud mouth who isn't even the leader of a country talking shit. Who not only doesn't have nukes- but also not a resounding majority's support- In fact may be voted out within the year. all ya got is some discontents who are essentially lobbing over exploding sticks and stones. Perhaps if you stopped invading their territory and holding them hostage- they might stop.
Yahu was a war mongering sociopath the last time he held power- Did the Bushies send over their election riggers to Isreal (considering most hold Duel citizenships)? Re-elections of such dangerous leaders should raise suspecions to the legitimacy of the process.that's something to investigate How many of those who Refuse to pledge their allegience solely to Our country worked on Yahu's Re- election campaign? Also operate with in the Isreali Gov't.Duel citizenship alone smacks of Treason- what about official duties within a foreign gov't?

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» typical liberal selective hearing Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
» The Right to Self Defense Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» That is funny.... Posted by: Prophit

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Predictions Realized
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Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on Apr 13, 2009 5:11 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Only a few months ago, Obama detractors were predicting that the new president would be tested by foreign governments to see whether he could be pushed around. Of course we were supposed to think of the test coming from Russia, China, Korea or maybe Venezuela.

At that time, who understood that it would be Israel setting a trap to see to what degree Obama could be pushed around?

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» RE: Predictions Realized Posted by: jal64
» Detractors Posted by: ProgressiveManiac

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What would our elected leaders response to an Israeli attack look like? Let's look back...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: ExposeTheIsraelLobby on Apr 13, 2009 5:50 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
July 19, 2006 - Congress Is Giving Israel Vote of Confidence

Democratic and Republican congressional leaders are rushing to offer unalloyed support for Israel's offensive against Hezbollah fighters, reflecting a bipartisan desire to not only defend a key U.S. ally but also solidify long-term backing of Jewish voters and political donors in the United States, according to officials and strategists in both parties.

With Israel intensifying its air and artillery attacks on Lebanon and warning of a protracted war, the Senate yesterday unanimously passed a bipartisan resolution endorsing Israel's military campaign and condemning Hezbollah and its two backers, Iran and Syria. A few hours earlier, Senate Minority Leader Harry M. Reid (D-Nev) delivered his most strident defense of Israel since the conflict erupted a week ago. The House is expected to pass a similarly pro-Israel resolution today.

At the same time, several candidates in highly competitive races are touting their unequivocal backing of Israel. Rep. E. Clay Shaw Jr. (R-Fla), who faces a tough reelection race against a Jewish Democrat, introduced his own resolution charging that "both Syria and Iran are directly responsible for this act of terrorism and should be held accountable." In Minnesota, Rep. Mark Kennedy, the Republican Senate candidate, is criticizing what his campaign calls Democratic candidate Amy Klobuchar's "deafening silence" on the conflict, calling her a "timid soul." Klobuchar, however, has staked out a similarly pro-Israel position.

Republican National Committee Chairman Ken Mehlman punctuated the day with a speech to Christians United for Israel last night, declaring that "today, we are all Israelis."

[...]

"There is no danger for the candidates," said Rep. James P. Moran Jr. (D-Va.), adding that those politicians "will get rewarded politically and financially for being out front in their support."

Moran said, however, that the outpouring of political support could prove dangerous for Israel. That's because Israeli officials "know they can only go as far as the United States backs them," and the flurry of pro-Israel activity "can encourage their leadership to overreach and create situations that become more problematic," he said.

Moran was forced to apologize three years ago for blaming U.S. Jews for pushing the country into the Iraq war.

washingtonpost.com

Journalist Philip Weiss on the Neoconservative agenda:

"In terms of their politics, they were almost all Democrats and then as soon as the Democratic party suggested that it wasn't going to have a strong military, Norman Podhoretz and Irving Kristol, the grandfathers of this movement, they went Republican. Why? Because they said, back in the 70's, a strong American military is needed to protect Israel."

Download an mp3 of Phil saying the above here (9:45 minutes in)
Antiwar.com/Radio - 07/12/2008
Antiwar.com/Radio - 03/18/2009

Watch the BBC documentary "The War Party", part 1 of 5

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This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.

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Does Iran have the Cajones?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: mrcentrist on Apr 13, 2009 6:28 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Does Iran have the -- shall we say it -- cajones to retaliate against Israel should Israel attack Iran? This is doubtful, as Israel has nuclear weapons (it's an open secret), and they also have the military and diplomatic backing of the United States. If need be, President Obama would institute conscription in the United States, and he could deploy millions of young men and women to Iraq. Iraq could be used as a base from which America could launch waves of infantry, tanks, etc. into the Iranian homeland.

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» RE: You're joking Posted by: channing
» Israel Never Attacks First Posted by: jbpazz
» RE: Israel Never Attacks First Posted by: robert.noll

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Israel has waited long enough
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Posted by: nozz on Apr 13, 2009 7:03 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Israel should relax because it is "within the realm of possibility" that the USA can sweettalk Iran out of building nukes? No responsible government can excuse inaction on grounds that survival is in any case "within the realm of possibility." Iranian technology has already passed one point of no return after another, while the diplomats respond by crossing out old deadlines and pencilling in new ones. At this rate, soon they'll be telling Israel "Yes, Iran is pointing nuclear missiles at you, but wait till we're sure we can't talk them out of firing."

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» RE: Israel has waited long enough Posted by: robert.noll

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irans nuclear
[Report this comment]
Posted by: daveysabboi on Apr 13, 2009 7:12 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
i believe Iran IS a threat to the USA they just
want the bomb to blast Israel. Israel is aware
of this.
WE can not afford to let them have it. it will
be tantamount to al quada having the bomb too.
sorry everyone, but iam not in favour of a nuclear iran, period

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» RE: irans nuclear Posted by: Quannah
» RE: irans nuclear Posted by: yellow
» RE: Liar! Posted by: channing
» RE: irans nuclear Posted by: chomsky
» RE: irans nuclear Posted by: donl51
» RE: irans nuclear Posted by: using
» RE: irans nuclear Posted by: moflard

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dick
[Report this comment]
Posted by: rtmyth on Apr 13, 2009 7:28 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Israel is considered by world opinion to be the most dangerous to world peace, with good reason. One only need look at the religious teachings of this theocracy to see endless war upon their neighbors as demanded by their god.

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» RE: dick Posted by: alive
» Israel is not a theocracy. Posted by: Philip Newton
» Anything that inserts Netanyahu Posted by: weathered

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Time to wake up
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Posted by: sawdust on Apr 13, 2009 7:52 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Netanyahu and Liberman need to lead the Israelis on an awareness campaign. They all need to wake up and realize that there is an entire world surrounding them and that it will be horrendously affected by any rash actions they chose to take against Iran. Of course that would require Netanyahu and Lieberman to wake up first, and they are both comotose.

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» RE: Time to wake up Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Time to wake up Posted by: weathered
» RE: Time to wake up Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Time to wake up Posted by: weathered

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unlikely, considering ...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: J4761 on Apr 13, 2009 8:05 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Washington could work out a grand bargain with Tehran terminating its policy of regime change and ending sanctions in return for Tehran's vow never to weaponize its nuclear program."

Tehran has already explicitly and implicitly ruled out ever trying to weaponize its nuclear program, officially and publicly, via its assent to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, which Isreal refuses to do, and which most western powers refuse to respect or even recognize in respect of Iran. Iran is well within its rights to pursue nuclear power, moreso even than India, Israel and Pakistan, none of whom have assented to the NNPT.

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Speculations
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Posted by: Urgelt on Apr 13, 2009 8:22 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is a very speculative article, which is fine - we should be gaming out the possibilities and thinking about how we should act or react.

To that end I will take issue with the article twice: once for a point made that is probably in error, and once for a point neglected.

First, the probable error. I think you can trust the Department of Defense to recognize the danger of permitting Israel to overfly Iraq on a mission to bomb Iran. Two-thirds of the Iraqi population is Shi'ite, as is most of Iran's. Iraq's Shi'ites aren't exactly lockstep followers of the Iranian mullahs, but neither are they going to ignore something as outlandish as the US permitting Israel to overfly Iraq to bomb their cousins. They will go ballistic, and the DoD knows it. Add in the retaliations which Iran itself is capable of, and it's a big, big headache. We'd either have to drastically escalate just to keep a toehold, or run with our tail between our legs. Neither is an appealing outcome from DoD's perspective. And they're smart enough to grasp it, now that a comparatively sane and pragmatic Secretary is in charge there.

The point neglected by the article is that Israel can attack Iran without crossing Iraq's airspace with its bombers.

In the US we have "big bombers on the brain." We call air strikes to resolve a guy with a pickup planting a roadside bomb, for crying out loud. Israel feels no such bias.

I'm not going to talk about tactical options. Speculate for yourself if you want to. I'll just leave it at this: there are other ways. Don't think for a minute Israel isn't considering every damn one of them.

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» DOD cannot be trusted Posted by: leafsong1

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Endless war is good for business!
[Report this comment]
Posted by: edgeofnowhere on Apr 13, 2009 8:24 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"It should go without saying that an Israeli attack on Iran would have disastrous consequences. No matter what Washington might claim, or how vociferously officials there denounce it, such an attack would be widely understood throughout the Muslim world as a joint U.S.-Israeli operation."

Hey, this is just what the war monger elites WANT to happen! Disaster is their game! Besides, the Americans are getting bored with the old Al Qaida threat and need a NEW enemy around which they can be galvanized. It is well recognized in Islamic circles that the US/British governments are, despite Obama's overtures, at war with Islam itself.

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Some questions
[Report this comment]
Posted by: willymack on Apr 13, 2009 8:32 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Who's REALLY in charge around here, anyway? How far does that "authority" extend? It seems that whoever's in charge is insane or rapidly going that way. Who's the genius that said "it's all right for us and a few selected friends to have nuclear power and the capability to produce nuclear weapons if so desired"? Who's the final arbiter of what's right or wrong? What moral authority do we, or any other nation claim to issue judgements regarding other nations' policies? How smart is humankind, considering the precarious state we're all in, what with overpopulation, rampant greed, crooked politicians, ecological degradation, and all the other problems we've created for ourselves? Whoever claims to be the final authority regarding what's right and proper for humankind needs to be institutionalized, in my opinion.

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» RE: Some questions Posted by: alive
» RE: Some answers Posted by: Fempatriot

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The entire world knows that Israel would never entertain -----
[Report this comment]
Posted by: symcokid on Apr 13, 2009 8:37 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
such a thought such as using their inordinate Military might and arsenal to devastate Iran's nuclear development plans. If Israel were to be so brazen then their own illegal Dimona Nuclear Facilities would be fair game for any other of their enemies to blast into oblivion.

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» Iraq was different Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Iraq was different Posted by: leafsong1

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Look at the Map.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: oregoncharles on Apr 13, 2009 8:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There's a big problem with this article: it ignores the map.

Look again: an Israeli attack would have to cross either BOTH Jordan and Iraq, or Turkey, or Saudi Arabia. Or more ocean than they have the planes for. The article discusses the Iraq option, physically the easiest, because that one depends on the US (and either Jordan or Syria - both enemies).

Does anyone think they could overfly Saudi Arabia on the way to Iran? They have military superiority, but not that kind. Turkey is an ally, but shaky, and not to the degree of allowing them to start WWIII.

The big tipoff would be if Israel acquires planes that could make the ocean trip (and back). In that case, only the US Navy stands in the way, and we're back to the considerations in the article.

In short: I think the Israelis are blowing smoke. I suppose some of them are crazy enough to do it, but they don't have a record of suicide missions. Israel has domestic politics, too, and it's politicians we're hearing from. It's still worthwhile to make sure Americans don't give them the go-ahead, but I'm not convinced that this is an urgent issue.

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» RE: Look at the Map. Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Look at the Map. Posted by: laoma
» RE: True, but... Posted by: oregoncharles

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I SAY GO FOR IT..ISRAEL
[Report this comment]
Posted by: donl51 on Apr 13, 2009 8:56 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
go around Iraq,do your thing and if It reflects on the USA...we leave the entire area,and the Israellis who already feel they can run our country,can take care of their own godamned selves!!....they don't own us,they don't threaten us,they don't tell us what to do...they'd be dead if it weren't for the USA,...enough is enough!...no more subsistance allowance!....what the fuck have they done for us lately?...they'll no doupt resort to nukes themselves...they were real good at chastizing the South Africaners about apartheid while they themselves practice it on a regular basis...you need help!..you don't tell,you ask!and I'd say ''go pound sand''...btw we have no say where our tax dollars go...more than likely they're used to pay the interest on our loans...so we can give money to pricks like Israel...call me anti-semetic...look up the word first!...semite..am I anti jew?...not at all.am I anti-Israel?...absofuckinglutely!

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building reality to conform with peaceful solutions
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Posted by: using on Apr 13, 2009 9:00 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Good article. Well written and argued.

After all, Iran is willing to have a two state union.....

.oh wait ....

.Iran's leadership has clearly stated ...that THEY DO NOT NOW NOR WILL THEY EVER ACCEPT ISRAEL'S RIGHT TO STATEHOOD.... So, is it paronoid for Israel to fear Iran's ability to produce Nuclear weapons.

What's the worry?...if need be Iran and Gazian leaders will control the people they have taught to hate Israel

.....oh wait....

from Arafat on they have proclaimed: "they want peace, however, they cannot control the terrorists who live comfortably amongst their people from targeting Israeli civilians."
And they have proven how little they value human life even of their own citizens.
Well, then if these two facts are true: how can Isreal, who is in the first line of fire, and the western world who will surely follow...trust Iran and the groups they support with Nuclear capabilities?

And should America and Western civilization fear Iran's nucleer capabilities....HO?...after all...Iran values Americans and their efforts......

oh wait..

..they said "America is evil and will crumble from the inside"

So it appears that this well reasoned, well written arguement...has set up a hypothesis that completely omits the baseline threat from its discussion. And like any well reasoned geometric logic, the conclusion the article draws is dependent on the hypothesis. And since the hypothesis omits the baseline reality....it is flawed not in its reasoning but in its conclusion.

So, this article begs the quesstion: what is the author's motive for setting up an arguement that distorts truth rather than mitigates a peaceful solution? Can we be so easily seduced into blindly building a future that is in our least best interest?

I agree that war is not the answer. And I challenge the media and readership to stop growing hate and start brain storming workable, peace building solutions.

Oh and by the way, I thought we (Obama's) aim was to protect our future by creating a safer, healtier haven for its populace. To accomplish this we clearly must find a way to mitigate the danger of nuclear waste. And until we accomplish this task we must control the use of muclear energy. IF Iran wants peaceful solutions for energy...why not explore solar and wind?

And also, I was under the impression that Obama was working to control the dangers of nuclear weapons by narrowing its stockpile of weaponry. And opening up new areas in which nuclear weapons and energy will grow is clearly not the answer to a greener, healthier, safer world - especially in the hands of those that believe:
that Western civiliztion is evil
that human life is not valuable.
that women do not have rights.
that free thought and diversity are unacceptable.

Is a state which stands firm on these beliefs and holds the power of nuclear capability not to be feared by all who wish the opportunity for mankind to grow more humane?

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» Let's examine your "logic". Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: to debate part 2 Posted by: using

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If the US should convince ANYBODY here, it should be ISRAEL
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Quannah on Apr 13, 2009 10:36 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We have no pull with Iran. None. Sure, we're now making overtures to Iran that have never been made -- direct talks. But what makes anyone think Iran would listen to anything we have to say on this matter?

The only way to stop this from happening is to shut off the never ending spigot of arms and weapons systems and money to ISRAEL.

It's our only hope. And, sadly, it's not going to happen.

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» RE: dear Quannah Posted by: using
» good one... Posted by: mjglow

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Good article
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Philip Newton on Apr 13, 2009 12:59 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thought-provoking.

With "Bibi" in power, nothing is out of the question.

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» Bibi ? How un cute. Posted by: weathered

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Who calls the shots
[Report this comment]
Posted by: brian boru on Apr 13, 2009 2:03 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Israel for all it's bluster is a small state armed with nuclear weapons. It has a barely functioning economy. The media likes to pretend that Israel tells the US government what to do. The US government always, I repeat always instructs Israel of it's intentions. Under Bush, Israel was given a free reign in Gaza and Lebanon but even under Bush were categorically told not to bomb Iran.
Under Obama they follow the same instructions vis-a- vis Iran.
Israel is pretty much despised everywhere in the world even in many quarters here in the USA. If Israel were to bomb Iran at the present time it would change everything and would make it impossible for future US governments to agree with the world that Israel can no longer trusted.

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Who calls the shots
[Report this comment]
Posted by: brian boru on Apr 13, 2009 2:06 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Israel for all it's bluster is a small state armed with nuclear weapons. It has a barely functioning economy. The media likes to pretend that Israel tells the US government what to do. The US government always, I repeat always instructs Israel of it's intentions. Under Bush, Israel was given a free reign in Gaza and Lebanon but even under Bush were categorically told not to bomb Iran.
Under Obama they follow the same instructions vis-a- vis Iran.
Israel is pretty much despised everywhere in the world even in many quarters here in the USA. If Israel were to bomb Iran at the present time it would change everything and would make it impossible for future US governments to DISAGREE with the world that Israel can no longer trusted.

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israel's nukes
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Posted by: tazdelaney on Apr 13, 2009 2:29 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
we almost never see mention of the fact that israel has nukes. by accounts, at least 330 nuclear weapons, plus an arsenal of other WMDs, including CBWs.

the major expose-master, seymour hersh, without whom we may never have learned of my lai, abu graib, the cheney assassination ring and many more grisly secrets of our terrorist government... in his 1980s book, 'the samson option' first addressed the usg proliferation of nukes and other weapons to israel. israel put the israeli nuclear tech whistleblower in prison for many years and still harasses him for his disclosures.

a national security regulation for decades denied the right of any usg official to speak about israel's nukes or who gave them to israel in the first place. the first time i saw such a public admission was in early 2008 and was made by no less than DoD chief gates.

the usg has hundreds of times used its UN security council veto to over-ride virtually unanimous censures of israel therein. in truth, it is the usg which should be so censured for it's war crimes, which are enormously larger than those of israel...

but what we see is that the US, EU and NATO all abide the party line without admitting to any hypocrisy. if iran is to be denounced for its weapons development, how about israel? how about the other criminal organizations with WMDs and aren't all nations with WMDs actually criminals?

ahmedinedaj is an insane and brutal tyrant but so are olmert/netanyahu or george bush. and obama aint looking no better, what with continuing the 'rendition' torture program, the wars, etcetera. so there is an obvious need for all parties who are warring and developing weapons to be shut down 'by whatever means necessary,' as malcolm x said.

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memo to graphics department.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: remo on Apr 13, 2009 3:39 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Your map illustrators forgot to 'arrow' in the air bases Israel has negotiated in GEORGIA, up there at top of map. They'd just fly-boy straight on down. boom-boom. save a couple of hours fly time.
Sorry?? you didn't know Israel was involved in the Georgian conflict??? Oh. Ok. Mums the word.

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» RE: More info? Posted by: oregoncharles

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Criminal Armageddon
[Report this comment]
Posted by: ceti on Apr 13, 2009 3:51 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lieberman is a fascist thug with strong ties to the Russian mafia. He is now foreign minister. The former Israeli president (Katsav) was charged with rape and the former prime minister (Olmert) is a crook. Many of the billionaire American businessmen who have given millions to Zionist charities and causes are also massively implicated in the US financial crisis.

Will Armageddon happen because Israel's political class is so corrupt and the American political class so craven (and also corrupt), that they would risk everything to divert attention from their own criminal misdeeds?

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» RE: Criminal Armageddon Posted by: using

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outsiders
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Archie1954 on Apr 13, 2009 6:21 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Outsiders have only so much they can accomplish in the Middle East. Any problems there must be settled by the actual parties involved. Sure pressure from outside can have some effect but only the actual residents of the Middle East can participate in peace. It really can't be imposed from outside for any extended length of time. The question is whether or not Israel and Palestine desire peace? If they do, then it can happen with assistance from outside, assistance applied equally to both parties. No favoritism to either side, no pressure from certain well funded lobby groups on Congressional leaders for a blank cheque for any side. Bona fide negotiations between all parties is the only way.

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This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.

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Proxy War
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Revolutionary (Direct) Democracy on Apr 13, 2009 11:58 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama can't keep limping along from one pirate episode to another forever. Without a major conflagration to squeeze the cash giveaway out of the headlines his administration is living on borrowed time.


FREE AMERICA

REVOLUTIONARY (DIRECT) DEMOCRACY

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"Iran is a pragmatic, logical player"
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Posted by: LocalMan on Apr 14, 2009 2:20 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Iran is a pragmatic, logical player"

Iran makes holocaust denial a national policy.

Iran hid it's nuclear development from the IAEA.

Iran violates the non-proliferation agreement it signed.

Iran claimed it's nuclear development was for generating electricity -- while it developed ICBM's. ICBM's are useless without weapons of mass destruction.

Iran repeatedly threatens to wipe out Israel.

Iran provides arms and support to Hamas and Hezbollah.

Neither the US nor Israel ever attacked the Islamic government of Iran -- and they've had 30 years since the Iranian Revolution in 1979 that took power with taking US hostages.

It was the US that took down Iran's real enemy, Saddam Hussein.

Stop treating the Iranian government as if they are normal, sane people. They are not.

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helt rigs
[Report this comment]
Posted by: freddik on Apr 16, 2009 11:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
commons file directory: back

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Israel kills ONE Russian advisor in Iran and Israel's nuked off the face of the earth
[Report this comment]
Posted by: xbj on Apr 18, 2009 1:21 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That would be pretty stupid, and suicidal, and fundamentalist, wouldn't you think? If I was Putin and ONE of my citizens were killed, I wouldn't hesitate to nuclearly correct the worlds' most stupid 20th Century mistake, made in 1948. With everything I had. And not worry a single second about US retaliation. From Obama? B*tch, puleeeaze.

And if Israel thinks they're going to make a phone call and Russian advisors are going to leave, they're really nuts.

Word to the wise: EMIGRATE. TO ANYWHERE AS LONG AS IT'S OUT OF THE MIDEAST. NOW.

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Urban Myth #3
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Posted by: Urban Myth #3 on Apr 18, 2009 7:15 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Might just be a disaster for Israel too - they want to think about Peace a little more face-on. Dabbling in war is a wheel that turns.....don't join the army - join a Circus!

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Do any of you remember Adlph Hitler?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Opinionator on Apr 20, 2009 1:35 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He blamed the Jews for everything that was wrong or troubled in all of Europe and murdered 6 million Jews, as well as gays,Catholics and others. Too many of you sound like a return to Fascism. Bad, Bad news. Are some of you Hitler redux?

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$^$#^
[Report this comment]
Posted by: itouch backup on May 7, 2009 10:56 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
_________________________
Video Converter OS X

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