COMMENTS: 218
Mexico's Drug War Bloodbath: Guns from the U.S. Are Destabilizing the Country
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A minute is all the time that it takes for an employee in one of almost 7,000 gun shops dotting the U.S./Mexico border to accept a wad of cash from an eager customer, fill out a triplicate sales slip, and slide a nice, new Taurus .45 caliber pistol across the counter. Or two, or three, or twenty, as the case may be. Add those handguns to the countless tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of pistols, sniper and assault rifles, semi-automatic machine guns, shield-piercing bullets, grenades, plastic explosives, as well as anti-tank weapons outfitted with self-propelling rockets passing illegally through the hands of drug cartel foot soldiers and assassins. Throw in the array of weapons favored by DEA and CIA agents, Mexican federal police and military units, and other 'drug warriors,' of one sort or another. These are all people who are ready, willing, and able to use violence to get what they want. If it looks like you’ve got a battle on your hands, you do -- the Mexican drug war has hit boiling point.
Mexican authorities have been quite vocal in the past year about the role that the U.S. is playing in the escalation of gun violence in Mexico. Last year, no less than 20,000 weapons were seized in drug-related actions, raids, arrests, and shoot-outs; nearly all of them were sold in the U.S. (The Mexican government has finally been given electronic access, by the U.S. Department of Justice, to be able to trace the origins of registered weapons, but only if they are used in the commission of crimes.)
Last month, the U.S. government’s own Bureau of International Narcotics and Law Enforcement Affairs, released its policy-shaping “2009 International Narcotics Strategy Report.” As the bureau had to admit, “U.S.-purchased or stolen firearms account for an estimated 95% of the Mexico’s drug-related killings.”
Nowhere in the report was it emphasized, however, that there are at least 6,600 licensed gun dealers in the four states adjacent to the Mexico border. Or that legal loopholes grant thousands of other unlicensed gun "enthusiasts" and collectors across the country to sell their wares, without inspection or oversight, at weekend gun shows across the country.
“A vast arms bazaar is rampant along the four border states, enabled by porous to nonexistent American gun laws,” The New York Times editorialized on February 27, 2009, after the indictment of George Iknadosian, a gun-shop owner facing federal charges for knowingly providing weapons to members of the Sinaloa cartel. “There should be immense shame on this side of the border that America’s addiction to drugs is bolstered by its feckless gun controls.”
The shame is warranted, and worth pondering. The action that needs to be taken, on the other hand, can afford no such luxury, because the people who have the misfortune to live in one of Mexico’s deadly drug war zones have already become the casualties of our demanding drug habits, our orgiastic worship of guns, and our obsession with profit without concern for consequence.
In the international munitions and intelligence-gathering marketplace, the U.S. is the #1 supplier/dealer of arms, military transport, law-enforcement and detention equipment, surveillance technology, and “non-lethal” weaponry. On the higher end, weapons deals are usually on the up-and-up, insofar as they’re attached to complex military aid packages, contracts with private contractors, and international “drug interdiction” agreements of the sort that Mexico has with the U.S. through the $1.3 billion Merida Initiative. Other times, the large-scale transfer of weaponry is far less "legitimate," as in the urban battleground that Mexican law enforcement and military forces now find themselves contending with, courtesy of the weaponry provided to Reagan and Bush-era Central American “allies.” These weapons of war have found their way back up north -- and into the hands of Mexican drug cartels.
Nearly every governing body or law enforcement entity imaginable (including Mexico’s equivalent of the FBI, its federal drug control agency, and Attorney General’s office) has been infiltrated by the cartels and wracked with espionage, graft, and corruption scandals. But Mexico is right to insist that the U.S. truly acknowledge the extent to which its own citizens (and policies) create and sustain the consumer market for illicit drugs. There’s no getting around the fact that Americans have the highest illicit substance use and abuse rates in the world, and Mexican drug cartels are but the latest of our transnational network of “suppliers.”
In the 21st century, the drug trade is like any other major industry in that it has been fully globalized -- sin fronteras, without borders. In just so happens that Mexico’s narco-cartels are now in the lucrative position of picking up where other players in the transnational drug trade have left off -- or, more to the point, were temporarily or permanently forced out because of individual arrests, sting operations, asset seizures, or other interdiction efforts. Even if the Gulf, Sinaloa, Juárez, and Tijuana cartels were to be completely dismantled tomorrow, there will always be some enterprising individual, group, or full-fledged criminal syndicate to step in where others have been derailed. Why? Americans have a seemingly insatiable appetite for mind-altering substances, whether in the form of cocaine, heroin, hallucinogens, tranquilizers, uppers, downers, and painkillers of all kinds. And what a profit-generating market this is. According to the National Drug Intelligence Center, wholesale drug profits amount to somewhere between $18 billion and $39 billion annually for the Colombian and Mexican drug cartels. Internationally, the illicit drug trade is estimated to generate at least $320 billion per year.
In light of that, the international drug war coordinating agency known as the United Nations on Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC), has become a bit more forthcoming about pointing out the causal and interconnected variables linking the U.S. with their “supplier” nations.
Leading up to the International Commission on Narcotic Drugs, which was called into session on March 11th in Vienna, UNODC Executive Director Antonio Maria Costa oversaw the preparation of several reports to measure the extent of progress toward a “drug-free” world, as outlined by an United Nations meeting and strategy in 1998. These reports, “The Threat of Narco-Trafficking in the Americas” (October 2008), and “Organized Crime and its Threat to Security: Tackling a disturbing consequence of drug control” (March 2009), are unsurprisingly opposed to the decriminalization or legalization of drugs. But they do, somewhat surprisingly, sing a different tune about the U.S. role in the international drug trade than in previous years.
Noting that 95% of the world’s population does not engage in illicit drug use, and that there are far more deaths attributable to alcohol, tobacco, and legal drugs, the “Organized Crime” report highlights a “disturbing consequence of drug control,” by way of “creation of a lucrative black market for controlled substances, dominated by powerful crime cartels and resulting in unprecedented violence and corruption.”
“Drugs are a commodity,” as the UNODC states. “Profits are ploughed back into increasing the capacity for violence and into corrupting public officials. Together, violence and corruption drive away investment and undermine governance to the point that the rule of law itself becomes questionable.”
In his preface to “The Threat of Narco-Trafficking in the Americas,” Costa makes another bolder-than-expected statement: “Tackling the threat of narco-trafficking in the Americas is a shared responsibility. No country is immune from the problem: all participate, either as a source of drugs, a transit country for trafficking, or an importer.”
On this point, Costa is absolutely right. By now, it has been clearly and abundantly demonstrated that Americans aren’t just the biggest consumers of illicit drugs in the world, but that the sheer number of our gun shops -- and the ease with which weapons can be purchased -- are significantly responsible for the level of gun violence in Mexico. Still, as recently as August 2008, by comparison, FBI Director Mueller’s speech at the 5th Annual Border Security Conference made no mention whatsoever of the role of American-sold weaponry in the violence on Mexican streets. (Instead, he attributed the situation, as many American drug warriors do, to “gangs,” “stronger border security,” and “progress” by the Mexican government in taking down drug cartels.)
The cartels are swimming in money, while everyday Mexican citizens in several parts of the country are swimming in terror and fear, edged in between violence between the narco-traffickers (and their School of Americas-trained assassins, The Zetas), the federal police, and the military. But never mind all of that, because there are bigger things for Americans to worry about.
For the past month, the crisis of drug-related violence in Mexico has (finally) become the focal point of numerous Congressional subcommittee hearings, press conferences, and high-level Cabinet meetings. (It took nearly 6,300 murders last year, and more than 1,000 since the beginning of 2009, to get this country to start paying attention.) U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder has called Mexican drug trafficking cartels “a national security threat,” while President Obama met with Joint Chiefs of Staff chairman Admiral Michael Mullen to discuss options to support the Mexican government, including surveillance and reconnaissance. And last week, Roger Rufe, director of operations for the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), appeared before a Congressional subcommittee to explain that DHS is ready to act, if necessary, to secure border towns. The Defense Department and National Guard would only be called in, he assured members of the House, if a “tipping point” were reached -- without explaining what such circumstances would entail.
For their part, television news networks ranging from FOX to CNN have set about creating a hysterical flutter of speculation about the likelihood of about teenage Latino “sleeper cells;” hypothetical collaborations between Hezbollah and drug cartels; the “nightmare scenario” of a crazed, drug-fueled invasion from Mexico; and the perceived need to militarize our border to new heights.
None of this would seem to be of particular comfort to the people of Ciudad Juárez. They wouldn’t have much time to contemplate why CNN anchorman Don Lemon would take the time to argue with a Texan mayor about the “spillover effect” that the town of McAllen knows isn’t taking place; or why FOX News’ Geraldo Rivera turned to “terrorism expert” Bernard Kerik (disgraced Homeland Security nominee, former Taser-executive, and multiple felony-charged former NYC police commissioner), for his opinion on whether the U.S. federal agencies and military forces should be moving into Mexican territory to get the situation under control. (Although the connection was never made clear, Kerik and NYC comrade Rudy Giuliani were hired in Mexico City, several years ago, as high-level policing and counterterrorism preparedness consultants to the government.)
And that’s because, across the border from El Paso, Texas, the people of Ciudad Juárez (pop. 1.5 million), exist for this moment in time underneath the unyielding thumb of Mexican military occupation. Daily life is being dictated by the commands and checkpoint interrogations of nearly 8,000 federales (black-riot-gear-clad federal police officers) and fatigue-green-clad military troops (nicknamed the “green tsunami” by Juárez media), who have taken complete control over local law enforcement agencies. Stationed across the state of Chihuahua, but concentrated in Juárez, most of these troops are exclusively trained in wartime offensive strategy and tactical maneuvers that leave little or no room for anything but a violent outcome. Although barely reported in the U.S. press, citizens of Juárez (and other cities or towns) have accused the military of serious human rights violations since President Felipe Calderón launched his 2006 crackdown on narco-trafficking, including beating people for “confessions,” electrical torture, rape, and the practice of enclosing heads in plastic bags filled with water to simulate (or achieve) drowning.
Calderón wasn’t without public support for the crackdown on drug cartels, who were battling each other—with increasing displays of public violence--for dominance in the drug business. Indeed, crime had long since been an issue in border cities like Juárez owing, in large part, to the constant influx of hopeful migrants and dislocated workers looking for employment in one of the legions of foreign-owned factories, assembly plants built by foreign companies looking to cash in on the low-wage workforce handed to them by the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA). Among other developments in the post-NAFTA border region, hundreds of young women have disappeared, raped, and been murdered in Juárez, by the hundreds, and they still do. Drugs are readied for cross-border journeys here in ways that are both mundane (e.g., kilos of cocaine hidden in the frame of a car) and mind-boggling (e.g., 140 pounds of marijuana strapped to the back of a man flying, in darkness, in an “ultralight,” a motorized aircraft resembling a hang glider.) Increasingly, many of the drugs stay in Juárez, and other parts of Mexico, something that has led to large-scale addiction the likes of which the nation has never seen.
But just as the acts of gruesome sexual violence, murders and disappearances of young women in Juárez have gone beyond the realm of random sexual violence, so, too, have the escalating cartel v. cartel-military v. cartel battles over ‘narco-turf’ gone beyond what anyone would reasonably consider “drug-related crime.” In this border city, nearly 2,000 drug-related murders have occurred since January 2008, including more than 200 murdered in the first two months of 2009.
In this sense, the people of Juárez are the actual, immediate victims of (our very own) drug war “spillover effect.” It’s too late for the thousands of people who have already lost their lives to related violence, but it’s not too late to pull the plug on the easy flow of weaponry to Mexico. And it’s certainly not too late for the American people to recognize and resolve, once and for all, that this is a war that cannot be won: not under any circumstance, not by any country, not by any political leader, and not with all the firepower in the world.
For the sake of Mexican people, the welfare of all of our global neighbors, and yes, for ourselves, it’s time to close this ill-begotten book on the war on drugs, once and for all.
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Posted by: DrBrian on Mar 18, 2009 1:10 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» You can look around at all the repressive legislation and attempted.....
Posted by: Prophit
» Care to tell us when this country was under martial law?
Posted by: sausage
» Yup, no problem, Civil War, Lincoln declared Martial law and suspended....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: The Civil War. That's a no-brainer. Ain't you clever
Posted by: sausage
» Its fairly well laid out when you can declare martial law and suspend the constitution.
Posted by: Prophit
» Lincoln was not 'a man of integrity....'
Posted by: gellero1
» RE: Some Hand in the Assination?
Posted by: edgar_michel
» RE: Some Hand in the Assination? Page II
Posted by: edgar_michel
» RE: You can look around at all the repressive legislation and attempted.....
Posted by: Landover123
» RE: The Privileged Amendment
Posted by: KeLe
» Bravo!!!! However, you better read this and reconsider if you...
Posted by: Prophit
» (CON'T)Bravo!!!! However, you better read this and reconsider if you...
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: The Privileged Amendment
Posted by: buzzsaw
» RE: Ninth and Tenth?
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: Ninth and Tenth?
Posted by: LillianB
» RE: Ninth and Tenth?
Posted by: Crazy H
» Bush is a neocon, not a conservative... big difference.
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: The Privileged Amendment
Posted by: gustavoc
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Posted by: Perry Logan on Mar 18, 2009 2:35 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Gun proponents like to say we need guns to fight a tyranncal government. So where were they during the last eight years, when our freedoms were being systematically stripped away?
The gun guys just sat there with their barrels up their butts. I thought they had a plan.
Forgiving the Neocons
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» They were lost in space because they were trained by the NRA to overlook the Bill of Rights except
Posted by: maxpayne
» THE 2ND AMENDMENT IS NOT TO BE USED FOR FIRST RESORT....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Then why is it the "Second" amendment?
Posted by: sausage
» Huh? Now that is a new one on me.... can you give me a link or....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Huh? Now that is a new one on me.... can you give me a link or....
Posted by: sausage
» Figures!
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: maxpayne on Mar 18, 2009 4:05 AM
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» I am really surprised you said this........ "folks wailing against gun control often stand silent...
Posted by: Prophit
» Thank you Prophit ! I cannot believe some people think gun control is the answer to the drug war !
Posted by: JenniferBedingfield
» I agree with the majority of what you said with the exception....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: I agree with the majority of what you said with the exception....
Posted by: JenniferBedingfield
» I had a real life experience that taught me the value of carrying....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: A .22 caliber pistol is not a "real gun"?
Posted by: sausage
» Hey, relax, you getting to emotional, try not to take these things....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE:Well, when're "they" coming for the guns???
Posted by: sausage
» Are you going to settle down and stop being so emotional? If not, I am done with you.
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Well, when're "they" coming for the guns???
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: I had a real life experience that taught me the value of carrying....
Posted by: progunprogressive
» The answer to the drug war is...
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: The answer to the drug war is...
Posted by: wmike
» Ok, ok. Not all of them but I just wished they'd be more consistent about it.
Posted by: maxpayne
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Posted by: hiwaycruzer on Mar 18, 2009 4:27 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The only thing destablizing Mexico is its corrupt leadership, bought and paid for by drug lords. Guns are merely the tools they use to protect their interests. It matters not who sells them to these clowns, they'll get them from whatever source is available.
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» Your right about that.... In fact, why there is civil war in Mexico right now...
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Americas' Mexican Corruption support
Posted by: wallisp
» Wow, good idea, maybe gun control worked in Mexico?? hahaha
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Wow, good idea, maybe gun control worked in Mexico?? hahaha
Posted by: truckingal
» RE: Wow, good idea, maybe gun control worked in Mexico?? hahaha
Posted by: maxpayne
» True, I am a tree hugger, literally and figuratively, and also pro 2nd amendment
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Wow, good idea, maybe gun control worked in Mexico?? hahaha
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Wow, good idea, maybe gun control worked in Mexico?? hahaha
Posted by: tkwilson
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Posted by: colinmeister on Mar 18, 2009 4:38 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: While I can appreciate your gun laws rant
Posted by: Prophit
» "..up to Mexican customs to prevent the import of weapons.."
Posted by: xvictor
» RE: While I can appreciate your gun laws rant
Posted by: Crazy H
» Yup, both in use and supply. The Bush/CIA cartel are busy....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: While I can appreciate your gun laws rant
Posted by: danielleismyname
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Posted by: JenniferBedingfield on Mar 18, 2009 5:17 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Boy, you hit the nail on the head. When Walmart can hire Mexican....
Posted by: Prophit
» I see more Latinos than even Afros both shopping and working at Walmart in my area.
Posted by: JenniferBedingfield
» Your right, once again its easier to do the simple solution....
Posted by: Prophit
» Walmart
Posted by: Juven
» RE: Walmart
Posted by: maxpayne
» Easy to understand when they have doggone near a 100% profit from labor.
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Boy, you hit the nail on the head. When Walmart can hire Mexican....
Posted by: aussidawg
» Reading the entire article would be helpful, Jennifer ...
Posted by: siljatalvi
» RE: eading the entire article would be helpful, Jennifer ...
Posted by: maxpayne
» Getting rid of the drug war is the real answer.
Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» RE: I'm sorry but gun control is not the answer to the drug war in Mexico. Getting rid of the drug war
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Didn't you read the entire article JenniferBedingfield?
Posted by: aussidawg
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Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars on Mar 18, 2009 5:23 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: IslandSkye on Mar 18, 2009 5:35 AM
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» There is some of that, but really, think about it.... CIA, black ops funding...
Posted by: Prophit
» Law abiding Mexican authorities?
Posted by: aussidawg
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Posted by: xvictor on Mar 18, 2009 6:19 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Yes, and I think this has really put a dent into the regionalizing...
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Yes, and I think this has really put a dent into the regionalizing...
Posted by: EncinoM
» LOL when did they ever care about the law??? What about the sale of our ports...
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: LOL when did they ever care about the law??? What about the sale of our ports...
Posted by: EncinoM
» Right and every publication on the left lies and every publication on the right lies....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: ight and every publication on the left lies and every publication on the right lies....
Posted by: EncinoM
» "Please remove the tin foil hat, once and awhile."
Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» Yeah, but unlike Encino, most would provide a link or two....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Yeah, but unlike Encino, most would provide a link or two....
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: "Please remove the tin foil hat, once and awhile."
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: "Please remove the tin foil hat, once and awhile."
Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» RE: "Please remove the tin foil hat, once and awhile."
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: "Please remove the tin foil hat, once and awhile."
Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» RE: LOL when did they ever care about the law??? What about the sale of our ports...
Posted by: aussidawg
» Latest dispatches on U.S. militarization of the drug war
Posted by: aahpat
» What is new... these are clever little sociopaths.... militarization of our law enforcement....
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: bobtr900 on Mar 18, 2009 6:25 AM
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Posted by: rgd on Mar 18, 2009 6:29 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: rgd
Posted by: Crazy H
» And they are both wrong. It isn't the drugs or the guns normally...
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: MeyravLevine on Mar 18, 2009 6:33 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Aaaah, so succinct..... your a jewel.
Posted by: Prophit
» It's not the guns that are the problem. It's the loopyholed policies and corrupt pols that are it.
Posted by: FLYING DOOFUS
» RE: Oh, and you forgot, everywhere else on this God's green earth.
Posted by: symcokid
» RE: Guns from USA destabilize Mexico, Colombia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Chile,
Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» RE: Guns from USA destabilize Mexico, Colombia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Chile,
Posted by: grammasanity
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Posted by: picket on Mar 18, 2009 6:34 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Asked in a recent interview why not just legalize marijuana he states now that he no longer is in public life, "actually I don't care"...I care about 6-12 graders but if you are 40 years old, living in Oregon, growing 12 huge pot plants in you back yard..."knock yourself out."
Real cute, tell that to the millions of hard working US citizens you put behind bars, for the FAILED WAR.
YouTube via DrugWarRant.com
http://blogs.salon.com/0002762/
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» Don't click on that link (IDENTITY THEFT!)
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Two minutes between posts? Mr. "Privacy Center" doesn't read Alternet.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» Please click Alternet's "report this comment" link
Posted by: Bliss Doubt
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Posted by: melpol on Mar 18, 2009 6:51 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Getting High.
Posted by: grammasanity
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Posted by: Sanford on Mar 18, 2009 7:02 AM
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Posted by: PakiBoy on Mar 18, 2009 7:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is nothing more than a scam to channel public funds to military-prison complex.
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» RE: Thank VP Joe Biden for 'War on Drugs' scam
Posted by: rhinojos
» RE: Thank VP Joe Biden for 'War on Drugs' scam
Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» And to give his masters massive profits in money laundering....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: And thank Biden for Bankruptcy Reform Act of 2005
Posted by: MeyravLevine
» Yeah, that is when you knew he was working not for us, but for...
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: Romantic Violence on Mar 18, 2009 7:15 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Never give up your firearms-Jordan Maxwell
FTW
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» Want some real hard nosed truth? Our highest levels of gov and private banking/corps...
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on Mar 18, 2009 7:42 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The second amendment reads:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Perhaps someone can explain to me the meaning of the first part of that amendment, the part that says,
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,
Unless you give a good explanation of the intent behind this phrase that is consistent with your interpretation of the second amendment, you cannot claim to understand the meaning of the amendment.
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» RE: Second Amendment: What Does it Mean?
Posted by: progunprogressive
» RE: The emphasis is on "well-regulated" militia
Posted by: MeyravLevine
» RE: The emphasis is on "well-regulated" militia
Posted by: progunprogressive
» RE: The emphasis is on "well-regulated" militia
Posted by: MeyravLevine
» The Swiss, when they adopted our constitution, read the writings...
Posted by: Prophit
» The meaning is getting clearer so hold on to your horses.
Posted by: FLYING DOOFUS
» Patriot Act
Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» I thought that the NRA was working towards reforming that act.
Posted by: FLYING DOOFUS
» RE: I thought that the NRA was working towards reforming that act.
Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» Someone before me may have explained it, but ......
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Someone before me may have explained it, but ......
Posted by: buzzsaw
» RE: Someone before me may have explained it, but ......
Posted by: bandofotters
» It's the might behind the 1st - individual rights
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: Gaubladt on Mar 18, 2009 8:16 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Really??? Do you have a link to that fact???
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: eally??? Do you have a link to that fact???
Posted by: Crazy H
» But your saying then that gun shops are the ones someone can prove....
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: jfernst on Mar 18, 2009 8:25 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Aaaah, a breath of fresh air, someone who knows what is....
Posted by: Prophit
» Facts, and questions about the "Center for Drug Policy Reform"
Posted by: siljatalvi
» Here is some historical perspective to what he is saying....
Posted by: Prophit
» Thank you.
Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» Yeah, that bothered me too. It appears the right to "privacy" isn't anymore....
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: CaptainStormfield on Mar 18, 2009 8:41 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While it is belivable that guns are being bought here and taken to Mexico, you cant buy full automatic weapons, rockets, grenades, on the legal market. I had this discussion with a couple of knuckle dragging gun enthusiasts, who are actually normal law abiding folks. Their question was why would drug cartels want semi auto's when they could buy full automatic assault rifles and sub machine guns on the world market? I dont know but would like to hear the answer.
For the record, I do support gun ownership but was never an advocate of flooding the market with cheap military style weapons.
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» RE: Even MSM is reporting that Meixco drug cartel is getting weapons from US
Posted by: MeyravLevine
» If the MSM is reporting it then its part of some agenda... they don't report anything..
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: ven MSM is reporting that Meixco drug cartel is getting weapons from US
Posted by: progunprogressive
» I refer you to the Los Angeles Times investigative series ...
Posted by: siljatalvi
» RE: I refer you to the Los Angeles Times investigative series ...
Posted by: progunprogressive
» RE: I refer you to the Los Angeles Times investigative series ...
Posted by: siljatalvi
» silja ... A Story Topic Idea
Posted by: aahpat
» RE: I refer you to the Los Angeles Times investigative series ...
Posted by: progunprogressive
» That paragraph you just quoted is exactly what got me going as well.
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: That paragraph you just quoted is exactly what got me going as well.
Posted by: progunprogressive
» Very good point....
Posted by: Prophit
» So, then, gun control in the US for average citizens is not a solution...
Posted by: Prophit
» And your trying to say they got these from the US small gun shops???
Posted by: Prophit
» anti tank
Posted by: YogiBear
» THEY ARE STOLEN OUT OF NATIONAL GUARD ARMORIES AND SOLD TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER.
Posted by: Raymond Emerson
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Posted by: paganpat on Mar 18, 2009 9:01 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: aahpat on Mar 18, 2009 9:28 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Second. I believe that the Second Amendment rights folks use their advocacy as a means of threatening the lives of American government elected and appointed officials when they assert that the Second Amendment was conceived to keep the populous armed against the excesses of government. Inherent in this assertion is a Second Amendment license to assassinate America's political leadership. I do not think the Founders ever wanted any such thing. Explicit or implied.
That said, I do not believe that more supply side gun regulations will control the problems of illegal guns on American streets or in Mexico. The problem is not a supply side issue. The demand for illegal guns by the drug gangs and cartels is so massive that it subsidizes the proliferation of illegal guns for all would-be criminals seeking to escalate their criminality with deadly force. The problem is that the value of the illegal drug trade inspires and induces gun toting self regulation.
As long as there are hundreds of billions of tax free unregulated dollars sloshing around for the taking by anyone anarchistic enough to grab some of it there will be a demand for guns to aid in that effort. Politicians, like Barack Obama, who continue to support the war on drugs, that creates and maintains the black market, support the anarchistic and violent demand for illegal guns. The violence is the fault of Barack Obama and Joe Biden just as it was the fault of George W. Bush, Bill Clinton, George H. Bush and ronald Reagan.
One final point. While many of the guns may be coming through U.S. civilian gun dealers the military ordnance that is more frequently seen on the Mexican side of the border is originating, I believe, from two sources. 1. As this report notes, surplus arms sent to Central America by the U.S. and our Cold War opponents in the 1980's. And 2. U.S. military arms transfers of arms to the Mexican military for the drug war. Active duty Mexican military cohorts of drug cartel military veterans are transferring these military grade weapons to their friends. Weapons provided by the United States military.
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Posted by: Juven on Mar 18, 2009 9:40 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: pacto on Mar 18, 2009 9:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: hey alter net
Posted by: mindtrvlr
» pacto
Posted by: Bliss Doubt
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Posted by: SocoLoco on Mar 18, 2009 9:50 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
End the war on drugs, legalize marijuana. That's what is contributing to crimes being committed with guns.
Attempting to link guns from the US is absurd. When have criminals ever respected the law to use legal channels to buy guns anywhere?
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Posted by: aahpat on Mar 18, 2009 10:01 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: willymack on Mar 18, 2009 10:11 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Yeah, but druggies make bad slaves..... hehehe They would end up saying...
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: rawlaw on Mar 18, 2009 10:49 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mexico's drug war and instability are not our fault - there are many problems inherent in Mexico's infrastructure and laws and economy and relationship to the US causing the drug wars.
To use Mexico's drug wars as an excuse to ban guns in the US (which would itself create immense instability and even cause political turmoil) is reprehensible.
It is irresponsible to put out an article like this in AlterNet because it argues that it would be right to restrict law abiding citizens to enforce laws against gangsters - this article gives fuel to the fire of those who call the 'liberal media' irresponsible.
Finally, look at Australia which banned private ownership of guns a year ago and has seen armed robberies jump 44% since the ban - why? Because when you restrict gun laws, it increases the power of armed criminals when they attack civilians.
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» RE: Gun Ban De-Stabilizes the US
Posted by: MeyravLevine
» RE: Gun Ban De-Stabilizes the US
Posted by: progunprogressive
» RE: State has every right to ban guns
Posted by: MeyravLevine
» RE: State has every right to ban guns
Posted by: progunprogressive
» RE: State has every right to ban guns
Posted by: MeyravLevine
» RE: State has every right to ban guns
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: State has every right to ban guns
Posted by: Romantic Violence
» RE: State has every right to ban guns
Posted by: Romantic Violence
» RE: Gun Ban De-Stabilizes the US
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Gun Ban De-Stabilizes the US
Posted by: progunprogressive
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Posted by: gellero1 on Mar 18, 2009 2:10 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is just an excuse for a gun grab by the Obamatons.
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Posted by: prtsimmons on Mar 18, 2009 2:25 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Canada has an extremely high rate of gun ownership, yet our murder rate is approximately 1/10th the U.S. rate. (Many people in the town where I live have hunting guns, and many have pistols, too. I have fired Glocks and .357s and 9 mm semi-autos at the range, right here in Canada.) We have more immigrants (by proportion) and we also have a crime-ridden southern neighbour. Like Mexico, most of our gun murders are directly attributable to the War on Drugs (consider the 36 shootings in Vancouver in 2009, almost all blamed on drug-selling gangs).
My point: the problem is not that Americans have guns; the problem is that Americans love their guns more than their own children. Perhaps if the U.S. wasn't obsessed with the outdated image of the lone gunfighter saving the town from bandidos it could have an intelligent debate about the appropriate use of violence. You can't solve social problems with guns; drugs are a social problem. The drug policies of Canada and Mexico have been shaped more by American officials than our own elected leaders. (Consider the 2003 announcement by our Prime Minister that marijuana was going to be de-criminalized; it set off a flurry of visits by American drug warriors, and pot still hasn't been de-criminalized. U.S. drug czar John Walters' visited Vancouver, where he was booed by everyone from police officers to former mayors to pot activists. Please, stick to messing up your own country.)
So, to my American neighbours, please stop exporting your drug and gun problems to your neighbours. It is distinctly un-neighbourly.
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» RE: The problem is not guns, it's your love of guns
Posted by: aussidawg
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Posted by: pursah on Mar 18, 2009 2:27 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I worked with an MP who observed that bar fights do not happen the way they do in the movies and T westerns--a long drawn out fracas.
In reality, the guy who throws the first punch, usually wins the fight. One might call it the "Pearl Harbor Principle."
Apply this to guns and it is even more powerful. The first shot is the winning one. If you are walking down the street with your gun in a holster, the guy who shoots at you with his gun already drawn usually gets you before you can respond.
In order for your gun to make you safe, you need to be walking down the street with your gun out and ready to go and you have be more alert with a better aim than your opponent. The "good guys"--you, your grandma, your wife, your kids, your dog--would have be walking around with their guns drawn and ready to go in order for them to be protected from the armed bad guy.
One can only imagine the bloodbath that society would be come. Civil society as we know it would cease to exist.
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Posted by: AUGUST-WEST420 on Mar 18, 2009 3:46 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: hood1 on Mar 18, 2009 4:28 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We have a failed war on drugs.
Corporations reap 100 billion a year from the war.
They pay our lawmakers millions ever year to continue the war and their profits.
The war causes more damage to our country than any other issue.
It destroys mainly poor powerless at the rate of one every 36 seconds.
They are made slaves for their exercising of a freedom granted by our founders.
The war is a hoax it was based on racism and greed and it continues today.
We pay billions to other countries for support of our failed war.
We just gave Mexico 3 billion for cannabis eradication.
They killed 5000 low level drug related Mexicans to impress us. Also to ensure the billions keep coming.
Our leaders use the murders as a fear factor to encourage the uneducated that more money is needed to fight the war on drugs.
The cost keeps escalating every year and has
no effect on casual drug use.
Almost one million are jailed yearly for having a personal issue that should be handled by family, church and friends. Not thrown in jail to have their lives ruined.
Polls say ending the war on drugs is the majority's wish but our lawmakers (the ones getting the millions from corporations) continue to fight the war and increase its funding every year. The latest CNBC online poll is running 97% to legalize cannabis a drug that has killed no one is non addictive and helps many people. But the money keeps overruling what makes sense for our free country!
Its the snow ball that keeps getting bigger
America will never be drug free the corporations would not allow that they would loose trillions. They just want to control the source of your drugs and ensure they get a cut. While their drugs kill millions every year the one that is illegal is the one you can grow and enjoy free cannabis.... Imagine that!
Cherokee Fred Hussein Jesus
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» RE: Stupid old man
Posted by: John Thomas
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Posted by: XXXXXX on Mar 18, 2009 5:26 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: tkwilson on Mar 18, 2009 6:38 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Quite recently the Mayor of a city in Maryland, and his wife, were held at gunpoint by a bunch of federal "drug warriors", after they shot the couples vicious Labrador retrievers (one in the back) in a case of mistaken identity. They had NO warrant.
Posse Comitatus is kaput. There are 20,000 US troops on US streets for the express purpose of controlling civil disturbance, RIGHT NOW.
They came for New Orlinians guns when Katrina hit town and the cops fled. They sent Blackwater mercs to do their dirty work.
The second amendment is a worse dish rag than any of the other nine. Tell me it's never been abbrogated. What does "the right to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" mean to you?
Remember, the constitution limits the state, not the people. Our rights are our natural born heritage. We have them from birth. They are not "given" to us by any government.
Laws that are illegal do not need to be obeyed.
Google Marbury v. Madison; also, "jury nullification". Serve on a jury. It's a lot more effective than voting.
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» SOME LAW SCHOOL MAKES ME UNQUALIFIED FOR JURY DUTY. MY FRIENDS JOKE AND SAY
Posted by: Raymond Emerson
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Posted by: abusedbypenguins on Mar 18, 2009 7:00 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» AMERICAN INDIAN ALCOHOLICS ABOUND AND DIE BECAUSE THEY HAD, HAVE, NO
Posted by: Raymond Emerson
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Posted by: hilly7 on Mar 18, 2009 8:05 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Since Afganstan, Poppy production has increased 375%! No longer is it refined there, but moved. Who knows, maybe Mexico, especially since 2 CIA planes have went down with over 6 metric tons of coke. Hint: Not the Coke that says have a coke and a smile.
By all means though, let's disarm American citizens so that it will be easier to do the Hitler thing again.
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Posted by: GregH on Mar 18, 2009 8:30 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Tankerdeath on Mar 18, 2009 8:51 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You don't have to be a member of the NRA to know that. This is a biased story at the third paragraph.
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» Biased is not the word
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: Raymond Emerson on Mar 18, 2009 9:01 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If we were to legalize recreational drugs all over the United States as the lead article in "The Economist" reccommended last week, how long would the Mexican drug war last? I've asked others for guesses and they have said less than a year. I watched bootleg whiskey shut down after it was legalized. It took about a year.
Bootleg whiskey was kept alive by "churchy" types, bootleggers, and politicians and law enforcement on the take. We now know that. Its history. It slid over into "fact".
When I was boy you couldn't learn much about the bootleg business. It was kept quiet. When it was over, it was all of "the talk". It was now safe. The same thing is true of the drug business today.
Legalize it. The Al Capone component will go away. I have people say, "If you legalize it people will just use more drugs." How could they possibly use more than they are using right now?
We didn't solve alcoholism by legalizing it. We won't solve drug addiction by legalizing it. But it might give us a chance at regulating the age our children first come in contact with it. That in itself justifies legalization.
What do we need? Just like Diogenes we need more honest men. We can't count on the drug dealers, wholsalers, or cartel operatives to help us. We can't count on police, sheriffs, District Attorneys, County Judges, District Judges, or anyone else on the payrolls of the big operators. This includes the bankers that aid in the laundry of the money. This leaves us finally with the "churchy people". They are the least respectable of the lot. Everybody else knows that they are dishonest. The churchy people think that they are honest. That is what makes them so despicable.
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» RE: BULLSHIT. YOU GUYS ARE IN A ROUND ROOM POINTING AT EACH OTHER. LETS SEE NOW,
Posted by: John Thomas
» THANK YOU FOR ASKING FOR CLARITY. WE ALREADY HAVE ENOUGH HONEST MEN.
Posted by: Raymond Emerson
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Posted by: hughesrg on Mar 18, 2009 10:50 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That line made me chuckle a little bit. Taurus pistols, especially their sub compacts, are unreliable garbage! I know, I had one. If Taurus guns were all these animals were able to get they wouldn't be doing much damage at all... But seriously, as a law abiding gun owner who values his and any other law abiding citizen's right to exercise their 2nd amendment right, I am disgusted at how easily these animals are getting these guns from unethical, traitorous gun shops/dealers.
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» NO BUSINESS MEN ARE MORAL. THEY ARE AMORAL AS I HAD SUPPOSED THAT YOU HAD
Posted by: Raymond Emerson
» RE: Serious matter I know but...
Posted by: inanaturallight
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Posted by: Raymond Emerson on Mar 18, 2009 11:08 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The gun issue is kind of a non issue. Neither you nor I can own a Thompson fully automatic. This is out of the Capone era. Its gone. We legalized whiskey. It will disappear when we legalize drugs which we surely must. If we do not go to the root cause the fight will continue. Those that wish us to fail will be pleased to misguide us.
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Posted by: abprosper on Mar 18, 2009 11:54 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Where allowed full automatic weapons are heavily regulated in the US (registration and FBI background check required) and essentially never used in crimes and stuff like grenades are flat out illegal.
Certainly a few carbines and semi autos and probably plenty of handguns cross the border but thats not your big problem-- Mexico's screwed up oligarchy is
Still being a decent sort I'll propose a trade we'll stop sending Mexico our guns and money and drug war -- you stop sending your drugs and economic migrants here -- fair?
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» a fair trade
Posted by: zooeyhall
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Posted by: mindtrvlr on Mar 19, 2009 1:03 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Mar 19, 2009 8:07 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Blame the U.S.---again
Posted by: techcafe
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Posted by: aahpat on Mar 19, 2009 12:46 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Grand Valley State University student protests will be joined by University of Michigan and Michigan State students in protesting the shooting of Derek Copp.
I have posted more on this at: Michigan Colleges Protest Against Student Shooting by Drug Warriors
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Posted by: Patriot of the Republic on Mar 19, 2009 1:52 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First, the process of buying a gun the article said was a lie, you have to pass a background check. Second, if this were truly the problem, the fed's could use the serial numbers from all the so called guns and see if those were coming from a few dealers.
This is more government propoganda from the great supporter of the 2nd amendment, Obama, that is stealing our childerns wealth, just like Bush and Clinton did.
Lastly, I've seen TV interviews where they show all these weapons from the US....I laughed because it showed weapons that are already illegal in the US that us normal citizens CAN NOT GET. I saw an old M-60 chain fed machine gun on the table, last time I checked, I can't get one of those.
To my fellow americans on the left, be careful of some of the articles on this site, it's horribly inacurate and downright lies. I always look because I do find good ones here and there. I would say the same to people on the right.
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Posted by: ham2mtr1 on Mar 19, 2009 7:22 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
money will buy whatever you want on the international market. Watch the movie Lords of War for a good example. it's based on a true story.
In short don't blame me for the problems and ask for my guns. Prohibition creates this type of problem and only leagalization will fix it.
ham2mtr
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Posted by: aahpat on Mar 19, 2009 10:22 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So stop bitching at Americans reasonably filled with fear for their lives from the crime and violence exacerbated by guns in the hands of criminals. Bitch at the NRA for its failure to address the drug war root cause that inspires gun control advocates.
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Posted by: Bearzerker on Mar 20, 2009 3:14 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We can end this all ...now... simply by ending prohibition!
then all this will probably dry up and go away as there will be no black market driving it anymore.
Don't be fooled... these 3 evils are as interwoven into this pool of greed as is everything in the world of black markets mayhem and the shadowy men that run them... Its the modern age goldrush of unreported income that has infiltrated all levels of society and we must as a society come to terms with!
fyi...in case the US population is unaware... this war in Mexico is raging on in Vancouver, BC as well, where Mafioso like Asian gangs are running amok in an open gang war happening on the streets as we speak!
its always about the money... just follow the money and u will see so much corruption/confusion that the only way to re-regulate would be to start from scratch...
to much confusion... to much politics
and nothing gets done to solve the organized crime syndicates out killing our children for a 50$ drug debt! with illegal guns brought into the country to kill and maim for an industries bottom-line & profit!
It's long past time for us as a society to go after the criminal negligence of the Gun Manufacturers their agents and all other sales representatives...
it's time to get some control back on these arm sales, internally...
...we don't have to regulate the people owning guns...
do as you wish individually in your own country, but when lethal weapons made in our country end up in the hands of a pre-pubescent wanna be from another country.. illegally acquired and harmful to that societies good order and governance, then we must act to protect our reputation at the source [meaning at the point of sale to manufacturers agents]
We could do nicely by just going after the arms manufacturers and their sales practices outside country... big hefty fines for questionable sales outside of the country.
Guns are about 1 thing only... killing...
and gun control isn't the answer as then only the criminals will have them...
responsible harm reduction strategy's MUST be deployed and laws passed holding manufacturers responsible for there products...
We could also/perhaps mandate insurance for gun holders.
...if we must have insurance on our cars in order to drive, why not the same for guns?...
life/disability insurance I think could be a start, but I'm not an expert on these things... but maybe some others may give us a better solution...
anybody got a better idea... post it
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Posted by: foxxx on Mar 22, 2009 11:28 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: theblackgeorgecarlin on Mar 22, 2009 8:43 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Another point is that our law enforcement makes so much money off of the "War On Drugs"(more like war on poor people if you ask me!) We have entire departments of police stations in this nation dedicated to beating the crap out of people for smoking buddha:Narcotics investigation units,Vice enforcement units, gang units etc. all of which would disapear if drug prohibition was ever ended. Some studies show that as many as 100,000 cops alone are dedicated to drug "enforcement". Not surprisingly, most of these narcos,as us Black folks call em, are corrupt,racist,violent, and operate as their own insular unit from the police station(Look up the Rampart scandal,or watch The Shield or The Wire to get an idea of how these narcs operate).
But now that the violence in Mexico is spilling over the border and may hurt some Americans, its suddenly a problem,were it wasn't when it was just killing brown people for a decade,well thats good ol American policy thinking for you, as long as its makes money for you, and you don't think about the long term, its fine and dandy like amos n andy.
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» Agreed ... and more thoughts on the subject.
Posted by: siljatalvi
» RE: Agreed ... and more thoughts on the subject.
Posted by: theblackgeorgecarlin
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Posted by: Article on Apr 17, 2009 3:40 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
huh !!
Steve
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