If We Are in the Death Spiral of Capitalism, Can We Start Using the "S" Word?

Fletcher founded "Progressives for Obama"? There's foresight. And he's surprised Geitner and Summers are handing trillions over to investment bankers, insurance ceos who invested in speculative paper, and to the incompetent US auto companies?

The fundemental change, and it may be "fascist" as well as "socialist", will come when the faith of the public in "democratic captitalism" is shattered by mass poverty and financial chaos on a much greater scale than now. The GDP, though battered, remains in the trillions. Most people have jobs. Shopping Malls remain full and some areas are harder hit than others. People will cling to the capitalist dream to the bitter end. I agree the bitter end may come, but it's not here yet.

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There may be no ideology that properly discounts the capabilities of people. In fact, people are capable of far less greatness or nobility than accorded to them by Marx or Adam Smith or most others. Expect the worst of people and 90% of the time you will not be disappointed. If what I say is correct, then giving people unregulated freedom in this day of potentially catastrophic overpopulation and unbridled population growth is tantamount to stomping on the accelerator as you approach a cliff instead of braking. The Chinese Monkey King is an excellent avatar of humanity. Humans have entirely forgotten that they are apes. The world is being inundated with nearly seven billion egomaniacal and megalomaniacal apes, and doctors are now fertilizing the females to bear eight more of them at one time. Socialism will only delay the inevitable, while capitalism will bring it on at full speed.

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The one thing religion got right, is that mankind is depraved.

We can't count on people because people are building their own little narcisistic worlds with the wealth (power) they get, they use wealth (power) to GET AWAY from other people and built their own little kingdoms within the jungle, to create their own little cliques and cultures away from "those people", the poor, the lower class, people they don't get along with, and on and on and on...

It's about human nature and our outdated biology.

The only real way forward is understanding of human nature and the biology that produces it and trying to change it or replace it.

After millions of years of war suffering and inequality, don't you find it odd that human beings are still in the same place they were then, and the only reason these things exist, is because of people are on the whole antagonistic towards one another and the peace is really only fake?

Can christians and muslims really get along when their faiths are so diametrically opposed? Can capitalists or socialists?

In ideological case, each group wants to kill the others if they ever sought power to implement their vision of the world.

The truth is - people don't really fully understand their own weaknesses, they think they are capable of getting along when they have a hard enough time merely tolerating the presence of one another who's characteristics are very different.

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Look to the Zapatistas, thou sluggard. Consider their ways and be wise.

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unless there is trust and a belief system of effective laws and compliance.

That trust was effectively dismantled on 9/11, now there is a sense of lawlessness. 'if congress and wall st. can steal, why shouldn't I'?

Unless the DOJ attaches the assests of the criminals and inflicts real pain, we'll slide down into the dark, draconian hole faster than you can say handcuffs.

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the only system that worked is the Schwedish model;
good salaries and social benefits for everybody.
High taxes for CEO, state ownership of 10 to 30% in big corporations.

No acceptance of incomes over 20 times the minimum salary.

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When the government is bailing out businesses, it isn't time to start talking about socialism.

Its ALREADY socialist.

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It never ceases to amaze me - so-called "progressive" Americans who study European style socialism and think it all looks good on paper, then want to force the issue on the rest of us.

Have any of you people ever been outside of the United States for any significant period of time? I'm talking about actually living abroad here, not just a two week vacation to Ibiza or Cannes or Amsterdam or somewhere equally attractive to tourists. I'm not even talking about a month-long hiking trip across Europe, or even a three- or six-month adventure.

I'm a proud American who now calls Europe home. I've been living overseas for going on two years now. I've been to England, Germany, the Netherlands, and I currently live and work in Poland.

I can say first hand that socialism does not work. At least, it doesn't work the way you think it does.

You know the corruption and cronyism that comes with capitalism? It's still there, only the tax rates are much higher (especially on "the working class"). As an average, working-class guy with a wife and a child, I still pay well over 30% of my income in taxes.

These tax monies are supposed to go to socialist-dreamer projects like roads and highways, parks, public transportation, and the almost mythical "free health care" that seems to be everybody's favorite wish-list item.

Roads and highways? Sure, we have them. They're generally in much better condition than what I'm used to back in Michigan. (Though, in the rest of the country's defense - Michigan has - hands down - absolutely the worst roads out of any state I've ever been in.)

Parks and public places? Plenty of them. You're hard pressed to walk for five minutes in any direction without coming across a park of some sort, whether it's just a small fountain with some benches to rest on, or a full-blown playground for the kiddies with a gathering place for the adults.

Public transportation? Here's where it starts to get sticky. You see, plenty of tax money gets diverted to the companies that run the buses and trams that get you around whatever city you're in, and the ever-popular trains that link the cities together. These companies are owned - whole or in part - by the government. Often, when a private company is in charge of a particular public transport service, you can look at the board of directors and you'll see that it's chiefly government officials who call the shots for these companies. (Not too different than how corporate cronyism works back home.)

So, all sorts of tax-monies get poured into these companies to set them up and keep them running. But that's not the end of the citizen's contribution: You still have to buy tickets to get from A to B. These tickets are very over-priced, considering a good chunk of the companies operating costs have been absorbed by the taxpayer already. The transport is slow, never on time, and - since the government has to approve expenditures for the companies that recieve tax money - the buses, trams, and trains are all horrendously old and in poor working order.

(Some of the larger cities - Berlin, Warsaw, Amsterdam, London, etc - get new equipment and have regular, preventative maintenance done to keep this equipment in good order. The cities and villages on the outskirts of major cities like that... well, that's another story. The major cities with the majority of the population get the lion's share of the tax money that's doled out - everyone else has to make due with less. [From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.])

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GREED is a negative human trait.
It has run its course.
There is nothing left to give.
The well is dry.
The Corpirates have ravaged the world and what do we have to show for it?
Poverty, Lawlessness, Treason, Terrorism, War and Destruction!
The Baby Boomers life savings was ripped off by the BUSH & The Forty Thieves and
No ones doing anything about it!

When Bonny and Clyde robbed a bank the F.B.I. used to,
Hunt them down and try to get the money back.
Well, Bonny and Clyde have robbed the Bank again and no ones chasing them!
Where is The F.B.I.?
Sorry there busy spying on and arresting Mom and Pop peace protesters.
Yea, that’s the ticket!
We know who signs their pay check!
Is this justice that you can believe in?
When a Poor Homeless Man steals a $100 Dollars: He gets 14 (FOURTEEN) YEARS!!
So we have to pay a million dollars in TAXES to send him to prison instead of giving a ham sandwich and a cot?
&
When a (Organized Corporate CRIME Boss)like Bernard Madoff rips off 50 BILLION dollars:
Nothing Happens!
He’s still living in a 7 million dollar penthouse eating caviar and getting a plea bargain!
What is wrong with this picture?
Like, I've always said:
"What is; is."
That's the facts, Jack!
Forget all the mental gyrations.
Get used to it,
You’re FUNKED!

They want everything you own.
They’ve got it!
They want you poor, unemployed, with no health care, no safety net, homeless and destitute.
They’ve got it!
They’ve got you: TERRORIZED, sick, ignorant and afraid.

Are you going to let them get away with it?

A perfect world to them,
Is one without you in it.
You think an old unemployed hippie has some value and surly has a part to play in their Fascist Utopia.
Some people are so naive and numb that they are unable to see or feel the spit being rammed up their A-s.
Also there’s that inflated pile of self worth to step around.
All that's left is?
The Coup De Grass!

Opt out!
Join the Micro Democracy
REVOLUTION
Cut out the (CORPIRATE) Middle Man.
Turn off The Indoctrination Set.
Rise Lazarus off the couch and
Take the future into your own hands.

Be Creative.
Create The Alternative!
You’re two generations from the agricultural alternative!
Go back to it.
Take a step back so we can take the necessary steps forward.

You think that you’ll always be able to walk across the street and get some Franken food.
What happens when the store closes?
The Dominoes are falling.
Get out of the way.
The shelves are getting bare.

Plant a victory Garden.
Get some chickens.

Go Local
Go GREEN
Go Organic.

At least you'll have something to eat besides your slippers.

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Alternet authors must stop exploiting political unpopularity of capitalism and look at the actual fact of the matter.

Is it a coincidence that 30 years ago the US cut off the gold standard so they could have an economy based on printing "free money" instead of actually building wealth? Hell no! That is what caused the depth of today's disaster.

The whole idea of this government monopoly on the money supply by which they artificially print up money and cause a fake boom which is always followed up by a nasty bust is a fascist system. This entire problem was caused 100% by printing up worthless money.

Seriously, how many times in history does this have to happen before people will get it? There must be 50+ glaring examples on the books of what happens EVERY SINGLE TIME money is debased and made worthless. Seriously... people need to study history to find out what happens every single time.

In 1913 when the government decided to put the money supply in the hands of a few corporate elite, which is the very definition of a FASCIST system, that started the fascist pro-slavery system that forced banker powers down our throat.

If we were ever given just a little REAL liberty we wouldn't use worthless dollars that are nothing more than a regressive tax on the poor and middle class! Long live competing currencies. I can't wait to start using real money so I don't have to worry about the government causing the destruction of my entire life savings. I look forward to the days ahead where we can start fresh and start over without any fascism. The Americans will prove they are more resilient than we have been painted to be.

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What are you going to do? Make greed illegal? How? Do you also think it should be illegal to be hateful, excessively fat, or angry?

Are you intent on forcing YOUR morals on others? You think greed is bad, and I do too. But its not proper to force our abstract moral ideas down the throats of others.

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Theft of property is illegal, unethical, and immoral. Stealing is taking without asking. Socialism involves taking without asking. Therefore it is an act of violence against another.

Personally I don't want any part of your filthy ethics. No, it is not proper to take another's property because you think you "know better" and will "do good with it". Government is so damned incompetent, I wonder what you are thinking when you said to yourself: "Oh, imagine if companies were run by greedy politicians instead of greedy bankers, and everything would be wonderful and perfect!

I can't imagine what you were thinking when you said to yourself "Oh, if only greedy politicians stole things from people and did good with the extortion money, we would all have food on our plate!" The reality of the situation is that if you are filthy enough to participate in extortion, then probably you are not moral enough to do much good with the proceeds.

Greedy bankers will go bankrupt. Greedy politicians will go bankrupt and then just keep on stealing with their greed and enslaving with their laws.

Here is what social programs get you in America:
Step 1: You steal via slavery 35% of someone's work hours.
Step 2: You take off a 70% cut for yourself being a greedy politician.
Step 3: You give out the other 30% of what you took to "those who deserve it more", of which at least another 15% are just lazy welfare squatters.

And yes, look at the real numbers. Greedy politicians take a 70% cut for themself in actual real federal social programs. Robin Hood? Think again!

Congratulations. Using extortion, you just destroyed people's fundamental rights but got 5% to 10% of someone's money for a greater good. Because God knows they couldn't possibly have given that 5% to 10% out of the goodness of their heart and it had to be stolen from them.

Capitalism at its worst is a voluntary system of greed. Capitalism at its best is a voluntary system of both generosity and greed. Socialism at its best is a slave labor form of generosity. Being someone who believes mankind can overcome their greedy nature to give, I of course am a capitalist.

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This article reeks (in the end)of progressive smugness instead of promoting progressive thinking. Like the government, the thinking is too small.

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A return to Keynesian economics will allow us to CHOOSE Socialism when it's needed to stimulate the economy. I grew up in the era of Keynesian economics and was in my 40s when Reagan and his cohorts bought into Laffer's stupidity because it enriched the GOP base.

No nation should lock itself into one single dogmatic economic system, whether socialist, small business capitalist, monetarist, trickle-down, or whatever. The only system that works must be flexible. If you've got a better flexible economics than Keynes and the Bloomsbury bunch, bring it forward. Otherwise, do as I've done for the last 30 years--PLUG FOR KEYNESIANISM!

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Socialism and capitalism are two different systems of economic function, each of which can exist exclusive of the other, or in synergy. I want the extremes of neither. At the present time however, we are at the extreme end of the capitalistic scale, having sacrificed much of the collective spending on the things that actually work to improve the efficiency of our society. Most of us simply want a shift back the other direction, toward a middle ground that keeps our fire departments, schools, road systems, and water treatment facilities adequately funded. We want a society where a shortage of electricity can not be intentionally manufactured by greedy corporations for no other reason than to maximize their profits.

It boils down to the basic principle of 'the commons'. I.e., the resources that we all must use or take advantage of in one way or another. The bridges, the schools, the judicial system, the regulation of how we must coexist with each other peacefully. Failing to invest in the commons in socialistic ways always ends in disaster, most often starting at the bottom, and eventually working it's way up to the top, and sometimes the neck. "Let them eat cake" is no way to run an economy. Similarly, those of you who think everybody should be able to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" should probably read a little history!

The "haves" rarely get it until they have already fallen victim to the system themselves, ultimately making us all "have-nots", until the next revolution that is. . .

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There's a lot of socialism bashing going on in this thread - some possibly justified, some not at all.

I would suggest a hybrid system, with tough, consumer-protecting regulations on corporate "people," along with social spending programs to ensure everyone is decently housed, fed, and employed, with universal health care. That is not too crazy, is it?

I've always held the position that it's fine for the capitalists to make money, as long as their activities do not hurt or impoverish their fellow citizens.

We just need to get some balance: democratic socialist policies to protect people while letting those who are insane amass wealth - but set a ceiling on what they are able to extract from the rest of us on penalty of imprisonment.

All we lack is the will to enforce the changes we want.

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I swear we nationalists should put you socialists and the investment capitalists on an island and let you fight it out. Then we will nuke the winner. Capitalism has not failed nor will it ever fail because we nationalists need capitalism. Investment capitalism better known as globalism failed, and the merchants of the world weep and mourn for who will buy their goods. Marx talks of public ownership, to you socialists that means some fork tongue politicians claiming to represent we the people, confiscate the means of production and decide what goods will be produced. Government ownership is communism no matter how you try and paint it. Public ownership is exactly what we have, if you do not believe it buy some stock and be an owner. Unfortunately we let the investment capitalists hijack the ownership. We really to not need investment capitalists in the game. Money making money produces nothing. Now the investment capitalists are squirming like a worm on a hook. We nationalists need the free market then we will choose which products we wish to buy in our pursuit of happiness. We do not need some socialist telling us which products we can buy because that is what they think is good for us, or some investment capitalist telling us which products we can buy because those products create the most wealth for them. We will buy the products that make us happy, the stock in those companies, and let evolution take its course, survival of the fittest. We will pay our taxes so the government will have the resources to provide for on common needs, which are more than just defense. We will accomplish that with out ever firing a shot because the revolution is a revelation of the mind. We can’t wait to see who screams demagogue the loudest, the investment capitalists or the socialists.

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Just do it. Yes, there will be "conservative" vampires screaming "socialism" but putting forth the good side of socialism can't hurt. Don't wait until the damage is done, oops never mind too late.

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The natural resources of this planet like iron, oil, gold, etc were here long before humankind was and rightfully belong to all of us.

Taxing their consumption would be a fair method of taxation that does not steal from anyone.


If the downtrodden really want to seize the means of production, support the RepRap Project.

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Now I recognize that many people here define themselves as "progressives/liberals" and therefore, may reject whatever came before... but it is still important to know what that was.

It is also true that "liberals" and "leftists" may find themselves allied on many issues or tactics and may well need each other under those circumstances.

Finally, it is true that "liberal" or "leftist" may refer to "political labels", applied by "the right", by others, or even by oneself, and have no particular relevance to the actual issues which divide "liberals" and "leftists".

Nonetheless... historically, liberals and leftists are not merely different points in a common spectrum but, in the end, they are implacable enemies. And the issue is precisely joined on the issue of class, as has been mentioned before but now seems to have disappeared from the general lexicon.

If the term "left" has any meaning other than a purely relative one, it is as that group of political ideas, parties, movements, and organizations which believes that politics is driven less by ideas than by interests and that those interests are based on economic class. Radical republicans (Civil War variety), revolutionary democrats, social democrats (including even a sizable chunk of the British Labor Party and the German SDs of today), socialists, utopian socialists, agrarian socialists, communists, anarchists, anarco-syndicalists, and nihilists - if these do not agree on anything else, they agree on the centrality of social classes even before they divide on what to do about them.

In contrast, "Liberals" explicitly reject the centrality of social classes. If such exist at all, they are assumed to be trumped by a common interest (national or otherwise) and any division is based only on transitory political opinion or policy. They are united with "Conservatives" in their agreement on the fundamental norms of society and on their long-term objectives (most importantly in the defense of private property and the projection of "national interest"). Indeed, for them, the current organization of society is the only one conceivable.


To the Liberals, the Left is a competitor for the same political constituency they claim to represent. The Left fosters "national division" and "class hatred" where moderation and "cooler heads" might otherwise prevail. They are often hand-cuffed by the "extreme demands" and "lack of reform mindedness" of the Left. If things come to a head, they can even justify arresting the Left... in the interest of "the greater good", of course (see Palmer, McCarthy, many more...).

The Left returns this attitude with interest... They regard the Liberals as the reform party of the ruling class. From this standpoint, the Liberals most assuredly need the Left. We are the monsters-beneath-the-bed that they invariably point to as a reason for the Conservatives to negotiate "reform"... "If you don't deal with us you may have to tackle the great unwashed". That is what "playing the class card" or "race card" means.

What exactly do we need the Liberals for? If there turns out to have been a misunderstanding of biblical prophesy and all Liberals are suddenly captured by the Rapture and disappear from the face of the earth how much worse off would we be? Would Rove suddenly be "turned loose" ‘cause Joe Biden was no longer there to protect us?

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Liberal- will blithely be assimilated.

Leftist- will promptly be assassinated.

Liberal- possesses a quaint notion that one can Re-Form hierarchical power structures.

Leftist- desires to completely unravel and eliminate the functions and forms of hierarchy.

Liberal- wishes to turn The Bank into The People's Credit Union.

Leftist- sees the need to turn the tables of the moneychangers and smash the marketplace.

Liberal- feels a warm fuzzy feeling inside while intoning "share the wealth".

Leftist- desires to redefine concepts of wealth particularly as it relates to large metal objects

Liberal- says "Living Wage".

Leftist- says "Solidarity".

Liberal- willingly shells out $3 for a glass of carrot juice.

Leftist- sees Root Vegetables as sustenance and metaphor.

Liberal- outside the coffee shop talks daily about the need for the Cappuccino Revolution but balks at acting out for fear this would endanger his/her daily cappuccino.

Leftist- reuses the same coffee filter, paper towels or odd socks when all other options have been exhausted in an attempt to squeeze one more cup from yesterday's grounds.

Liberal- wants to 'get out the vote'.

Leftist- recognizes voting as a nominal form of political activity meant to validate the Democratic State and convince the political consumer that they are a participant in governance.

Liberal- can often be seen mouthing the "education is the answer" mantra particularly in the rarified atmosphere of the Citadels of Expertise. Revels in being near theory or people 'doing theory' in the academy.

Leftist- sees education as social engineering and cultural imperialism. Education Academies seen as the proving grounds for the future ruling class.

Liberal- users of 'all natural' deodorant. The armpits are fresh particularly during commercial breaks.

Leftists- recognize deodorant as one of the essential pillars of Empire. Will often raise their armpit in tight quarters due to quixotic impulses.

Liberal- write lengthy position papers on the plusses of developing more efficient killing machines (See Amory Lovins for more details).

Leftist- sees the Techno Warfare State as one of the great life destroying mechanisms in the history of Mankind and understands the relationship between war and oppression. The Health of the State being that which kills everything else.

Liberal- true believers in the New Economy and Seattle (the city) home of Microsoft, Boeing and Starbucks.

Leftist- true believers in a different Seattle (the Amerindian prophet)

Liberal- incessantly complaining about their leftist rentors.

Leftist- incessantly complaining about their liberal landlords.

Liberals- have recently been experiencing a population explosion which seems to have been caused by a grey form of technocratic inbreeding. Much of this exponential proliferation seems to emanate directly from prime time television. And vice versa.

Leftists- an endangered species. Said to be only 723 remaining in the contiguous 48 states of the United States of America. For years they have been scooped up and exiled to the Periphery. To date all efforts to exhume the spirit of Eugene Debs have fallen on deaf ears.

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One might as well come out in favor of socialism as not, because the right wingers already are loudly claiming that the aim of the Obama administration is "socialism," which they are equating with (this is just what I've heard or read in the past week----other versions are sure to follow): Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism, fascism, Bolshevism, and Nazism.

I fully expect socialism to be equated with onanism, atheism, Islamofascism, orangism, lemonism, orangutanism, creeping grapeness, foot fungus, epilepsy, gigantic space worms, ptomaine poisoning, steroids, and the heartbreak of psoriasis.

So if someone wants to "accuse" Obama of being a socialist, you might as well grin and say---"Would that it were so." If someone wants to accuse you of being a socialist, you could also say "Is that a problem for you? If so, don't worry: you'll get used to it."

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It has been said that society is like a cart. Capitalism is one of the wheels and socialism is the other. If you have only one wheel, the cart is very difficult to stabilize.

It is also been said that future society will find that the optimum model will be found, through trial and error, to be 70 percent socialism and 30 percent capitalism. As the Piscean age was about individualization, and over 50 percent of the people (less in the younger generation) are still Piscean, there is resistance to moving towards the Aquarian concept of interdependence. The greedy old will resist, just like in totalitarian and communistic systems, but the new will persist and ultimately triumph.

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What do you see 30-40 years from now when what you're really thinking about is who will be changing your diaper (if you haven't exited gracefully long before this point)?

?

Maybe we should be giving more thought to those who will be adults down the road. So far we have reduced them to perfect consumer rats. The dumbest rats end up as cannon fodder or prison fodder or end up producing more fodder for the future.

Children are not encouraged to question authority. Children are not encouraged to examine their own lives, to discuss their conclusions and to make their own decisions. We all pay lip service to equality and understanding but the reality is that the biggest bullies are the ones running the show.

If we are going to invest in the future - if we are going to have a future - we need to start with healthcare and education. Try convincing you Yankees that dollars invested in pre-natal care, for example, pay off in the long run with healthy kids. Healthy kids have potential. Malnourished FAS kids do not.

Also the apprenticeship system should be mandated across North America. Not just for trades, but for skilled jobs currently requiring technical or vocational college. Do we really expect ghetto kids to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps without job training?

Healthcare and education are also "green" industries that rely on people power, not resource extraction. And by healthcare I mean checkups and vitamins, not advanced life support. Right now you have too many bankers hooked up on advanced life support and too many young kids living in poverty and despair. And when the bankers are dead, who's going to change your diaper?

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First, investigate the economic theories related to 'Steady State'. Start with John Stuart Mill and work your way up to Herman Daly and Kenneth Boulding.

Second, derivative 'debt', the speculative paper that is causing all the trouble world-wide, should be declared what it is, worthless. Then capitalism will have a shot at re-instating itself as an allocating system, as long as politics, both world and local, sets up regulatory and commonsense rules to live by.

The current world derivative "debt", according to Stephen Pizzo's article Follow The Numbers

http://newsforreal.com/newsdesk/?p=406

is $1.14 Quadrillion US dollars. There is NO WAY taxpayers around the world, and especially in the United States, can afford to pay off any of that amount and still have a decent healthcare, military, you name it. That speculative debt has to be written off first. The sooner Obama's economic team smells the coffee the better off we'll all be.

Oh, also read the Village Voice's article What Cooked The World Economy ? by James Lieber

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Capitalism is OK . . . really no problem . . . BUT - it is all a game and like ANY game there have to be rules and the referees have to be in charge.

And one more thing, it has to be done to please the fans, not the players or the referees or the owners.

So - can we really do it?

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Here is a thought. Why not take Marx at his word and transfer the ownership of the means of production to the workes by importing participatory democracy to the workplace? Replace ownership by shareholders with ownership by the workers. Instead of all profit going to faceless stock owners the profit goes to the people who work the plant, office or whatever. Instead of management imposed on workers from the top it is elected by those from all strata of a workplace. That which is produced will have to compete in a well regulated market place of goods, services, and ideas. A free market socialism combining the best of capitalism and socialism.

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It would seem the logical first step would be to permit the only Socialist in the US Senate to use his actual party affiliation instead of being forced to identify as "independent".

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We are an arbitrary nation, with arbitrary borders, who print arbitrary currency, to exchange for real world goods--food, shelter, raw materials, etc.

Capitalism does spur the wealth of nations. Socialism ensures that the wealth belonging to a nation isn't abused. There are bonuses to both approaches, in moderation.

The problem is that we we have are crooks amongst our 300M people...that's 300,000.000 for those that live in depressed areas. I keep wondering why folks want to destroy our capitalist/socialist enterprise, rather than destroy crooks.

We should have some staunch regulation of potentially bad entities, and we should prosecute evil doers, to borrow from your buddy in ideology. We should not abandon the notion that new, crazy-but-popular ideas should be profitable endeavors.

I'm sure both the evil-capitalists and evil-socialists will hate the idea of combining their notions.

p.s. eff off. you're political baggage when we need political leadership.

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Everything Marx predicted is coming true.

They have persecuted, tortured, murdered his followers.

Vindication and payback can be a bitch.

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Wish I was going to be in NYC…. In lieu of a lecture about history and political theory which many of the comments here have posted betraying their ignorance, I would suggest that the place to begin is a new theory of economics founded upon the science of thermodynamics. This is not merely my opinion, nor that of some neo-Trotskyite partisans, but is being undertaken by real scientists. Please consider these websites in the presentations for this meeting:
All Production is Joint Proeuction: A Thermodynamic Analysis
Introduction: Joint Production and Ecological Economics
International Society for Ecological Economics: Joint Production
Conference for Economic De-Growth, Paris, April, 2008

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Thanks Ms. Ehrenreich and Mr. Fletcher for a nice overview of our political dilemma. Sadly, as you point out, the word socialism has been "disfigured" into uselessness. Even among its potential beneficiaries, it has become anathema.

But ... I'm not sure that is where we really ought to be heading. In fact, I'm not sure we ought to be "heading" anywhere. We really do need to take our lessons from some of our more successful human systems like the Internet and Wikipedia. Neither of these "systems" were planned per se. Rather, they emerged and continue to flourish as living, evolving entities. They may have reached climax stages by now but they will continue to evolve as needs and contexts change. Sclerosis won't set in until we over-constrain them with myopic rules.

My point is we really need a set of principles by which we operate more than we need a plan that takes us from point A to B. We could think of it as a new constitution but one that is different from the one we currently have. It would be a set of rules that encouraged evolution in the same way that nature's laws do. The goals of those principles might be greater diversity and resilience.

The weakness of our current constitution (mixed with our capitalist economy) is reflected in the fact that it has allowed itself to be hijacked by a privileged few. Consequently, our culture has lost social and biological resilience leaving it vulnerable to the parasitic behaviors that disconnect actors and the consequences of their actions.

My big concern is we will try to establish a new system that is over-designed or too well thought out. It will probably be just as vulnerable as our current system and unable to respond to threats to its resilience both from within or from its environment. We need to recognize our human limits with regard to both the social and natural worlds we occupy.

In this light, I would like to add Frances Moore Lappe's wonderful "living democracy" as a candidate for social models that we might consider. It is described in her book "Getting a Grip".

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Karl, Joe, and Nick tried S in the USSR for many years. It didn't work. Is there a better way?

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In order to move into the future, we need a model; relying on the old discussions of socialism are inadequate because they don't include new challenges, specifically destruction of the planet. The old discussions and plans weren't, for lack of a better word, nurturing. We need a socialism with a soul.

And we have a model in Cuba. The Cubans have faced their economic crisis with dignity and resourcefulness and acceptance that life can't be the way it used to be. Local has replaced national, and sustainability runs everything. Granted they had fewer toys to give up to begin with, granted they teach and model and believe altruism from birth, granted they have a literate and educated citizenry, and granted there is little religous practice to get in the way of good common sense, but their survival after the fall of the Soviet Union illuminates the theory neuroscientists have suggested that as a species we are hard-wired to be altruistic (greed is a learned behavior). We couldn't have survived as a species otherwise and probably won't survive as a species otherwise.

We may not like everything we find in Cuba, but we can still learn. Models are essential.

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Right now we live with a system that allows for a small percentage of people controling the lives of the many. It could be said that the 'Out of Many, One' actually means out of the labors of the many one enjoys the best of lifestyles.

Let's think about this for a second. Isn't that already happening? They call the Upper Class 1% of the richest Americans. They live better than any 10 'average' households,maybe even 100. They haave the most 'Liberty', Freedom, and 'Worth' as a human. This seems a little out of whack when we remember that some of the most depraved folks had fat wallets.

The truth is,and they don't want you to know it, Capitalism gives way to Tyrnny and Corruption by it's Dominant Society. The tryanny of 'I can buy and sell you any day.'mindset. DO you hear me AIG??

Whenever a social structure even beging to suggest that all people are truly equal and that the 'wealth' of the society is in the highest of living standards being shared with all of it's people, the idiots that believe their money gives them power over you call it 'Socialism'and brings up the horror images of Stalin shooting folks in the head or chairman Mao turning his people into mindless automotons.

Fact is 'socialism' exisisted on this side of the world for thousands of years before it became a buzzword for a path to Hell. Only they called it 'Responsibility' and it was understood by all the Responsibility was how all things lived,with all in Creation performing their special Responsibility to ensure that all life stayed healthy and strong.
That kind of thinking kept this side of the World a Garden for more than 20,000 years,before Cloumbus crashlanded here. It only took 500+ to make it a swillhole. What did it? Capitalism.

Don't get me wrong,money managed correctly can create a good life for everyone. But money feed GREED and greed knows no boundry. That's why Du Pont could kill over 2000 people in India with a toxic gas from their chemical plant there. What was their penality? Paying a little better than $2000 American to the survivers of the family members killed by their lapse in thinking. That came to a little better than Tem million dollars,tuppence for Du Pont, crap fir the folks in India and their plant still got to operate.

Capitalism allows for the poisoning of ever living thig as long as it makes money. Remember Love Canal, thousands sickened and forced to move because their land was poisoned by athe industry around it. Or the thousands of folks that had to move in Virginia because an entire sud-division was built on toxic land containing asbestos.

Capitalism brought us the outragious miliarty budgets that keep us from having true healthcare fo our people, They also create the mindset that says " We built these killing toys,let's see how well they work.' Anyone who's ever been around a group of Generals when a new weapon has a successful test can tell you their faces light up like a freaking christmas tree at the thoght of using it someday. Plus..they cost a lot of 'money'. The whole reason for having a defence/Industrial Complex,to drive up the cost of killing people.

If the path to Peace be through some portal that evens out the system and suppoerts the people in all their endeavor without having to be an aggressor or militant society,then wouldn't that society by it's very nature be better than what we've been stuck with for the last fifty years alone.

Call me crazy, or a socialist but I think the good life for all would make for a better way of living for all of us. To say the least it would make us 'Responsible' something we haven't been for generations.

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Capitalism makes some people obscenely wealthy.
Capitalism, consequently raises the average income, therefore:
Capitalism is GOOD.
This may be true for the wealthiest 1 or 2 percent of us, but it's certainly NOT true for the rest of us. Of all the reasons to say capitalism is BAD overall, this is the most persuasive by far.
Wealthy people are NOT HAPPY PEOPLE, in fact they're just the opposite.
Wealthy people ARE NOT GOOD PEOPLE, in fact many of them are some of the worst scoundrels who ever lived.
Wealthy people are NOT MENTALLY BALANCED. They're infected by the virus of GREED, and can NEVER be satisfied with what they already have, and are, therefore driven endlessly to acquire ever more wealth.
How the hell can Socialism be so bad in comparison to THAT?

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like "Solrev's" above comment... There will always be those who say the reason for the current failure is that all vestiges of "socialism" (which they insist is "communism" under another name) were not wiped out.

The real reason for the current mess is that the people have been brainwashed by a vision of the "American Dream" that is unattainable by all but a privileged few. It's true that socialism can quickly become fascism when the will of the people is subverted. We need to change directions and start speaking up for our rights as people of this country.

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You "experts" told us Obama was the solution. You didn't say anything about revolution or socialism, that was just us in the GP world who were talking that kinda crazy shit.

Then you say there's no blueprint...

Well, I feel bad for all you owning classers and yer "experts" because you're damned blind and you exhibit extinction behavior. You say you want to tap ideas and use localized democracy bodies and such, but only if the GP ain't part of it and there is no IRV for single seat elections and hell no! NO proportional representation.. that's just blasphemy, now!

What. The. Fuck. Hurry up and die-off so we got more room to move about the shipwreck!

You want a revolution... 1789, baby!

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Why do we have to reinvent the wheel? The Dutch, Danes, Swedes and Norwegians, among others, have been democratic socialists for some time now. Most of their people live good, comfortable lives, because they don't exist with the stresses of the "sink or swim" mentally of capitalism forced upon us Muricans.

How about looking at their models for ideas?

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there have been too many examples of bad and failed socialism on a national level.
Just start practicing it in your community -- co-op farm markets, kid-watching groups, trading events instead of garage sales, leave your bank and join your credit union, volunteer at your local school or community/Senior Center.
People are scared, with good reason, of anything that smacks of federal control of our neighborhoods.

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we can start practicing it in our communities. have swap meets, instead of garage sales. organize kid-watching co-ops. encourage local farmers markets. volunteer at your local school or community/Senior Center. Keep an eagle eye on those who control your utilities, and if it's a corporation organize to fight their opaque rate hikes.
let it spread.

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First off we have had some degree of socialism here since we've had income tax - where most everyone pools money to provide service to the community - such as protection against fire and crime, roads, etc.

Then there is, thanks to Faux News and like minder (or maybe mindless) right wing tool talkers, a lot of confusing this with dictatorship. The Scandinavian countries are about as socialist as can be yet they are free to come and go and could vote to change things - if there was a need.

What is totally ironic about all this is that in actuality the Busch cartel and their capitalism run amok had us closer to a dictatorship, to imperial rule, than ever before. Of course wing nuts will not get this, since they seem to be irony deficient.

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Hybrids are in. Here's one that embodies both socialism and the free market (with participatory planning providing the guiding policies).

Identify our "lifeline" systems -- those networks that are essential to our health, safety and general welfare and that tend to form monopolies because they (a) are expensive, (b) occupy unique territory or (c) are fundamental to economic and social order and, therefore, a juicy target for private takeover. These would include the energy grid, highways, railroads, transit, telecommunications, water lines, water sources and sewerage, among others.

Nationalize all of these networks so the profit motive does not act as a barrier to essential traffic as it does now.

Pay for their operations and maintenance by inviting the private sector to supply services over them (much like the British rail system).

To ensure "highest and best use" of the public networks, participatory planning, both from the top down and bottom up, would become a national citizenship event, like elections, resulting in 5-10 year budgeting priorities along a 25 year pathway to a vision of the future. Public priorities as stated in plans and budgets would have the force of policy and law.

Use pricing policy over each network to ensure that public (not individual) priorities have preference, not the other way 'round.

The result: news and public interest information would not be crowded out by entertainment on the airwaves; alternative sources of energy would be able to compete with fossil fuels; freight and passenger traffic could transition to rail; water would be allocated to priority uses, first; new development would not go where it becomes too expensive to provide transportation, water and sewer lines; public services to the poor like health, education and security could be subsidized by market services like entertainment, luxury goods, etc.

We cannot have socialized or nationalized systems without a public consensus on how they will be used in the best interests of all citizens. This is the job of the planning process -- a process that has taken a beating in the past 30 years.

Planning is one of the defining characteristics of humans. It takes advantage of our abilities to reason from fact in order to see possible futures. In theory, through planning, we would choose a path that leads us to the version of the future that best comports with our values. The advantage of planning is to allocate scarce resources like land, water and mineral resources well in advance of their use, so that we are assured that they will be available to help attain a sustainable future. The "free market" tends to be wasteful of these resources, using them up just when they are needed for social purposes.

Yet we ridicule and even fear planning -- the highest order of human social and intellectual endeavor -- because it gives preference to the community rather than to the individual.

There is no argument: national, state or local planning is a social tool that proscribes individual action. In some cases it prohibits action by individuals, and even by social groups, by closing off undesirable pathways to the future.

In a capitalist system, this is the function performed by regulation, hence an aversion to regulation by devout free marketeers. But regulation on a day-to-day basis does not provide any particular vision of how scarce resources are to be used to create a collective future.

If we are going to reintroduce socialism of a kinder, gentler type, we must embrace an inclusive and powerful planning process in order to govern both socialism and the market. Any talk of socialism, in other words, must include a discussion of planning as the essential foundation for a New New Deal.

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Most of us who live outside the boundaries of the "shining city on the hill," cringe when Americans of the putative right and the alleged left use the word "socialism."

To the rabid Republican religious right, initiative-draining socialist policies run the gamut from public libraries to Soviet-style five-year plans and involve anything from godless support for gay marriage to the confiscation of small convenience stores.

In the alternative looney liberal lefties seem to think that socialism betokens anything from Canadian-style medicare and relaxed Dutch laws about recreational marijuana to vague entreaties to practice participatory democracy and abolish hideously ill-named "right to work" laws.

Neither group, I fear, would recognize a genuine socialist if it were to leap naked on a bar stool, clutching a hammer in one hand and a cycle in the other, clad only in work boots and a sash saying "solidarity forever" and singing "The Internationale" off-key.

So, if socialism is to have any sort of future in the USA (no sure thing), it is essential for various progressive factions and interests to come together to sort out what the word means.

Some may dismiss this as an unnecessary exercise in semantics; but, I do believe that it is important to come to some sort of consensus about the meaning of our terms: otherwise, we will literally not know what we are talking about.

Such conventions have been had before. I seem to recall that a fairly successful one took place in Philadelphia a little over two centuries ago, when some erstwhile aspirant capitalists cobbled together a passable constitution for the United States of America. They succedded in framing a liberal capitalist society, which eventually even included women and former slaves. Good for them! Imperialist mercantilism was never my cup of tea.

In 1962, on the other hand, some scruffy "new leftists" did an admirable job of coming to agreement on some principles at Port Huron, Michigan. They did not succeed in winning national support, of course; but, that does not condemn the project for all time.

Such a meeting seems inportant for one reason. According to Russell Jacoby, the problem with "late capitalism" is that it is never late enough. Still, the signs of instability are plain. My guess, of course, is that President Obama and like-minded centre-right leaders around the world will succeed in temporarily salvaging the capitalist system in some form, and carry determinedly on.

Nonetheless, a genuine alternative needs to be considered, constructed and articulated.

Marx, if I recall correctly, affirmed that revolution is nothing other than the kicking in of a rotten door. Again, the door of corporate capitalism has not exactly rotted through ... yet; however, the progressive left cannot rely on incoherent appeals to people's better angels and spontaneous opportunities for piecemeal improvements.

A continuous dialogue must be initiated and sustained on the left; otherwise, when (and if) the time comes, it will come as a surprise to progressives who will stand dazed and mute as, perhaps, the corporatist elite simply takes advantage of the imminent ecological and economic crises to take full control.

It is perhaps hyperbolic to suggest that the future will come down to a "final conflict" between the libertarian left and the authoritarian right, but stranger things have happened. So, as Lord Baden-Powell admonished paramilitary adolescents a century ago, it is wise to "Be Prepared"!

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This is not about Capitalism or Socialism. -- This is about the survival of our civilization. -- We know that Capitalism brings about greed and oppression, we know that Socialism brings bureaucratic strangulation, which we already have in this country. -- Why would we want either of those? -- What is happening is part of a process of the maturing of civilization, to a place where we can freely choose the style of life we live. -- In case you have not noticed, many of the worst aspects of civilization, in the whole world, have been revealing themselves lately. -- They are some of the reasons it all has to change. -- We need to iron out all our disagreements, and get on with the business of creating a good civilization out of the ashes of all our wars and greed and zealous nonsense. -- We have to grow up, finally, and give up the childish view that we are responsible to no one. -- We are ALL responsible to this world, ultimately, and to everything living on it. -- Get over yourselves, already!

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Are there any models of cooperation? you ask. Well, yes, in the US town hall meetings of long ago where the common weal was discussed and agreed upon. Plato long ago considered the ideal size of the city state to be about 5000 people, so that everyone pretty much had an acquaintance with everyone else. If Kunstler is correct and we must return to a local agricultural system, and local economies, even going so far as to have our local currency, then maybe the commonweal model could serve as a tool for how to govern ourselves, and the local, small-town system may be the wave of the future.

We could also look to China and its "Capitalism with Chinese characteristics," as they call it, where the aim is to meet social objectives through private enterprise, at least that's the aim if not always the actual result. It used to be called Democratic Socialism, where the basic necessities--food, water, energy, clothing, health care and housing--would be produced and shared in common, while the luxuries could be provided through a market system. Maybe today we could call it Socialist Capitalism.

The biggest hindrance to achieving such a system in practice lies, however, in the American and maybe human mental system. Americans of this generation seem to be fixated on a dualistic mental scheme--my way is right and your way is wrong--that cannot fathom much less practice mutualism, synergy, or the synthesis of extremes or opposites. The right, exemplified by El Blimpo, cannot conceive of anything progressive; the progressives, on the other hand, are equally incapable of synthesis and dismiss everything the Fat One says, so never the twain shall meet. Only a better education or a change in the mindset, a change from dualistic and polaristic to synthetic thinking, could yield a system of socialistic capitalism, however, and I don't see that happening anytime soon.

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We have a failure of vulture capitalism and the failed notion of no regulation and no govt is good govt when the chief Reaganaut also said Trust But Verify!!!

WE are agruing about individualism and free market individual freedom when we know for sure this is an interdependent world in
which everything depends on everything else.

We need social responsibility for countries, corporations, individuals. We need individual rights too, to be free of intrusive morality police.

But we have to develop a new economic model for an interdependent world whose environmental, cultural, economic, international affairs must be based on this being a finite planet that must be protected for the survival of us all.

We need the Bhutanese model of Gross National Happiness rather ever increasing expansion and profit and growth. We need a sustainable world.

We are a tiny and precious jewel of life clinging to the warmth of our sun and striving to overcome the instinctive primitive nature that has brought us this far and reach for a humane and compassionate and elevated way of living that is not based on other's suffering.

If we can't manage this our minds will develop the way to bring about our extinction.

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Goebbels. We have finally relieved ourselves of George Bush. We still have our Goebbels.

The right has spent the last 100 years teaching us that the word "socialist" is a perjorative term. What do you suppose the "McCarthy Era" was? It was to destroy the left wing of the democratic party. What do you think that the attack on Martha Stewart was? It was to send a message. We will get you.

A spokesman for Chesapeak(sp?) told an interviewer in the last week that we should not allow the planned cap on CO2 to happen. If we did we would be very sorry. It sounded very much like a threat. If you do it we will get you.

Be very, very afraid of the right, if you are not you are being very, very naive.

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Yep, because these "nationalist consumers" will be able to steer themselves away from global climate change by deciding which products to use (and die from cancer or some other shit because there isn't any more regulation)....

Right.

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The ruling class will never allow the peaceful transfer of wealth in any situation. WE must be prepared to act in self defence when the riot squads try to break up a demostration or the police try to break a strike or usher in scab labour, Secondly, there is something called the Transitional Program put forth by Leon Trotsky that outlines the manner in which the take over and distribution of power and goods can occur. In much the fashion that you stated ( although I don't think capital restorationist, or organizations like the Better Business Bureau, those that represent the interests of capital should be given an equal voice in this participatory government you talk about any more than I would want to give voice to the KKK) Anyway, it all starts with a general strike and setting up dual organs of power, Labour Unions, Credit Unions, Farming and Housing Cooperatives are generics already there. Environmentalists and greens will have to partner with the many well trained technocrates who have the skills that we would need to co-ordinate and administer many of the tasks that will be needed in a socialist society. As you mentioned we can look at the countries that with more or less success did and do manage to scientifically and rationally plan national economies to meet need rather than serve the interests of profit. As to internationalism, most of the developed world is already more advanced ideologically than those in the USA so I wouldn't fret to much on that account. It is a matter of catch up if anything. Defeating our own national bourgeosie is the main task and again we can cherry pick from current and historical examples for much of what we need to do to implement the changes that are needed if we are to survive as a species, let alone a nation. If a pre-revolutionary situation is to arise, it will start with general strike-these other things will evolve organically and like President Obama says, "We can't let the perfect stand in the way of the essential" I am going to remember that one, that's for sure. Given all the power that the state has accrued and the dimminuation of civil rights that has occured in preparation for this "showdown" don't think I am not a little paranoid even talking like this on a board like this. That all those laws passed ostensibly for the war on terror would be used to round up domestics was never lost on anyone with the least bit of leftist credentials or understanding of the state in capitalist society-as a self administerd confidential litmus test-how class conscious are you? Lastly, history is repleat with examples of success and failure in socialist experiments-history will be our greatest ally-not bourgeois history, but the history of the working class.
Cheers,
RR

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....for dictatorship.

Most probably along the lines of Germany in the 30's.........

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The days of multi-million-dollar bonuses for execs and CEOs are definitely over. But the rush to socialism ain't gonna happen. There are simply not enough socialists around to get the movement started. Obama knows that too. If using our federal taxes to acquire ownership of the banks and corporations to turn this country into a socialist regime is what Obama really has in mind, then the taxpayers and gun owners have some sad news for him and his cronies.

First, there will be a federal tax revolt. What's he gonna do then? Nothing! Next, the federal government will be too broke to function. Federal employees will up and quit, including the military and the IRS. And finally, states will begin seceding one by one and will be much better off.

Yeah, try forcing socialism down America's throats and see what happens. The conservatives tried to trounce us, now they're impotent. The same can happen on the other side of the fence too.

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Any kind of government, any kind of economic planning, can be corrupt. We've heard of apathetic government employees dishing out inefficient services. We've heard of the misery of high taxation for things we don't want or need, or that we need and can't get.

We're experiencing a different kind of central planning now, whereby big businesses serve mankind ever so altruistically when asking for government hand-outs and tax abatements, but are "after all, just a business" when laying people off, cutting salaries, axing pensions and filling pockets richly at the CEO level. Today's CEO is the overfed apathetic government official of yesteryear.

There isn't perfection. There is only a fresh canvas, and the picture is never painted the same way twice. There is, in this era, perhaps too much knee jerk reaction to the word socialism. I'm ready to try commonality. I'm ready to be a member of the common party. It's just an idea. Schools are a common need. So is health care. So are utilities and waterworks. We need official watchdogs who represent the people, to monitor financial institutions and processes, to keep those institutions from literally stealing from the people as they have done. We need honest government to answer to us rather than to lumber and mining companies with regard to our few remaining wild places.

Let people turn clay into bricks and sell them. Let people cook lunch specials and open restaurants. Let real competition prevail in the marketplace by ending government protection of criminal investment houses and incompetent auto makers, but through all that, we must recognize and preserve those things that we all, at every socioeconomic level, need.

Any idea that you don't pay for capitalism, but you do pay for socialism, involves keeping blinders on. Future generations of Americans are in debt for trillions in corporate welfare, while our investments have been wiped out, and still we have dangerous and toxic products, inefficient automobiles, entire industries relocated to foreign countries where desperate powerless work forces make junk to be shipped back to us at the cost of petroleum fuel. We have bad roads blighted with fast food chains serving unhealthy food and offering low wage jobs with no benefits. We have malls full of nothing, where air conditioners burn electricity all day long, and the rent is too high for local businesses. Health care in our country is only for the wealthy.

At the bottom line, you will pay, and it might as well be for the common good rather than for the benefit of a few wealthy elite. When the structure that supports the common good becomes bloated and inefficient, full of intractable fat cats, we can stretch a fresh canvas and paint another picture, but at this juncture we need to take back our country from the few multinational corporations that govern it.

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Many failures, unforeseen disruptions and chaos occur when a new system replaces an older one. The more common reasons are design faults due to the lack of input by those affected, lack of training and a failure to maintain the old system until the new one has proved itself capable and stable.

In the interim....

How can you restore consumer confidence or any expansion in consumption if credit can only be extended to the employed? The credit bubble has burst and re inflating it will be next to impossible while unemployment on a global basis continues to increase due to ever increasing automation and efficiency. The sooner we are willing to accept a base wage for all citizens based on nothing more than social cohesion the sooner you will restore growth in consumption and a market for competitive forces to serve. If we recognize citizenship as work then we could have virtually 100% employment. Those who desire to consume beyond their needs will seek opportunities within the capitalist system either as employees or owners. Those who don't will be consumers paid a basic wage for engaging in education, the arts, social work and other endeavours that create and foster community. Many may choose elements of both or engage in one over the other dependant on the stage of life they are at.

The longer term hope would be to see a duality unfold where newer systems evolve to take care of our needs while the older one devolves into focusing on our wants.

It may seem somewhat Utopian but only so because of those who insist that people shouldn't get something for nothing. If they could they would privatize the air and not allow anyone to breath who wasn't willing to serve those that owned it. Well air is free and somehow capitalism endured.

Sometimes the real issue at stake is power and the ability to lord over others. I imagine that is what led to all those pioneers, homesteaders, ranchers and mountain men that eventually rebelled against those that claimed to be their masters. Unfortunately there is no frontiers to escape to but the underlying principal is still sound. The sooner we accept the universitality of everyone being entitled to a basic livelihood the sooner we can expand the current economic system to accommodate everyone.

As to affording it. There's a story of being stuck on an uninhabited island for the rest of your life with nothing but a suitcase containing over a million dollars. It may shed some light or relevance on the artificial construct that we refer to as money.

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. . . for this timely and inspiring piece.

"In this situation, with both long-term biological and day-to-day economic survival in doubt, the only relevant question is: do we have a plan, people? Can we see our way out of this and into a just, democratic, sustainable (add your own favorite adjectives) future?"

That is indeed the question. I've come up with a few ideas.

1. In the near future, there will be many abandoned and empty shopping malls. The government should seize those properties using its power of eminent domain (just like it does when it takes property for a new highway or power line), and convert them into factories. Several manufacturaing operations could probably be housed in many malls. Conversion would be relatively simple, and many potential workers already live nearby. These sites could be used to start manufacturing the green technologies which we also desperately need.

2. The many soon-to-be-abandoned strip malls, gas stations, big box stores and such could also be seized and simply eliminated. These sites could be converted to farmland, which many of them were to begin with anyway. These farms would also be located near to people who need their products.

3. The urban landscape is already replete with half-constructed and/or empty condo/retail developments. These should also be seized (with the customary modest compensation, of course) and converted into affordable housing for working people, with sliding-scale rents based on income.

Any of these enterprises could be (eventually at least) turned over to private managers or owners, provided that they are required to be run in the public interest.

That's my 2 cents worth toward a better future. Of course, one problem with this scenario is that people will have to relearn the farming and manufacturing skills which have been lost over the last few decades. Whether we have time to do all of this retooling and retraining before chaos and despair set in for good is an open question.

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Sorry, the stimulis package is not capitalism it is masterbation.

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It's not about the word.

Co-optation is a fine art, especially in this country!! Just take a quick look at any commercial advertisement making use of insurgent or rebellious songs of the past (long after their copy- and royalty- rights expire!).

Any prescription "from above" must be taken with extreme caution. Especially here in the USA, which is abysmally and incurably uninformed and ahistorical. Don't forget: even those so-called "socialist" or "social-democratic" countries in Europe are experiencing a right-wards shift and trending in pretty reactionary directions-- this isn't only a national, but an international situation.

It's not about the word. Capital, despite its current woes, is pretty nicely organized and connected and can't be counted on to be giving us "the whole story", so to speak. The forces of capital by its capitalists are in no way gone or even close to dying.

Uttering the word "socialism", in this country, is to utter a "boogeyman" term, and its result may not be what is desired. And, don't forget, Stalin once proposed the theory of "Socialism in one country" -- an utter contradiction to the very program of liberation and class struggles. Whenever "socialism" is proclaimed within national borders, it can be counted on to be on the Right -- mildly or progressively more authoritarian and fascist in its forms. An administered society by a bureaucracy of the corporate state is not in any way socialism. And count on it, it is admininistered by Capital, not Labor.

"A rose is a rose is a rose";

A Manager is a Manager is a Manager. Then there are the Managed.

Still class struggle. Socialism will never arrive from above.

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...is that none of what is currently happening is a mistake. It was all pre-planned and executed to a T.

The financial crisis is just the new 9/11.
Neither was and accident.

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...But Social Democracy is a way forward.

Nothing to be afraid of.

Bailing out banks with treasury money (Socialism) is the direct result of Capitalism's failure. So why not embrace a system that is about the common good and holds the promise of a robust middle class that also protects the lowest earners from total misery. We'll still have an upper class that will be rich enough and together we can begin to move towards a solution for the greatest threat -- Global warming.

Let's begin.

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There is a plan--its called a Full Spectrum Economy and it is based on Riane Eisler's work, "A Real WEalth of nations...creating a caring economy.

A Full Spectrum Economy is a 6 sector economy (instead of the current 3 sector economy). It isn't capitalism or socialism--its both and then some. It is a solution for the future and it is doable.
Ann@partnershipway.org

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"Lets all live in drab apartments on treeless streets and drive tan mini cars and hope to get a doctors appointment within 6 months - and pay handsomely for the privelage."

Wanna know where for yure talking of . . . we've got Google Earth now and the areas of Europe I visted forty years ago are much improved and at that time I was looking for evidence of the destruction of WWII. There were tale tale signs but great strides had been made.

I'm a fortunate American that only pays, what?, 33% of my gross income in taxes not to mention the seventeen thousand a year I pay to a health insurance company that monitors my doctor's activities so he doesn't provide me with "unnecessary" [should read expensive] treatment that will cure me of my ills, and boy am I sick! [Of it!]

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Sorry, should have been directed to 2thepoint's message of "Thank You"

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There are only two choices, as you pointed out and your comment is quite accurate.
Cheers,
RR

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William Grieder did some amazing journalism and exploration of this very topic, quite in depth.

Check out:

Who Will Tell The People

AND

The Soul of Capitalism
by William Grieder

The Soul of Capitalism relates directly to this article but Who Will Tell the People lays the groundwork and is a real page turner.

Peace

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This was a well considered piece that I believe touched bases with the key imponderables for those of us who still regard ourselves as revolutionary socialists.

We have no precise model for rebooting existing social arrangements so as to found a sustainable and equitable society on a world scale. We should aim in my opinion, for something that could fairly be called "inclusive governance" but exactly what processes could underpin that, and the exact means with which we could intervene to prevent the collapse of existing production from destroying the social basis for rational society is far from clear.

I believe that the last century has shown that we do need to be very cautious of what may broadly be called 'vanguardism' -- really a kind of authoritarian left-of-centre populism. We leftists do need to put the idea of cultural pluralism as an intrinsic good, and further, present scope for local initiative as the key to a healthy polity.

It seems to me that sortition -- a system of governance embodying something like the jury system -- combined with the kind of direct democracy that the internet makes possible could be one of the tools in the suite that could be applied widely to mitigate the rise of pervasive political parties while preserving the legitimacy of governing bodies to represent the sentiments of the bulk of existing stakeholders. Once entrenched, a system like that could both obstruct the growth of centralised and unaccountable governance and at the same time prevent a backsliding into the older political and cultural usages of capitalism.

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Most of the writing here seems to assume that socialism is state capitalism -- that is, the government takes over the role of the capitalists. This is not socialism, at least according to the original formulation. Socialism is the ownership or control of the means of production by the workers, or by the people. No government is specified or implied.

I don't see much desire for socialism, that is, I don't see a great desire among the people to understand and take over the task of owning and controlling the economy. Instead, I see a desire for better monarchs who will make everything right through their enormous powers and wisdom. Obama is the latest edition. Hence I think we are a long, long way from socialism (as I define it).

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I live in Taiwan, hardly a "socialist" country, but we do have socialized health care for everybody. You copay the equivalent of $1.50 for meds (no matter what cost) and the same for the doctor visit. I've never waited more than five minutes to see a doctor, and I've gotten more extensive "routine" checkups and more options on meds than I ever had back in the states. They test for everything. The problem is people go to the doctor for everything, even the common cold. Nevertheless, we pay about half the taxes as you do in the states.

As one who's experienced several insurance programs in the U.S., this program is wonderful. Don't get me wrong: Taiwanese people complain about it constantly. That's the nature of government services--they are great to bitch about.

When I tell them what it's like in the states, however, their first reaction is disbelief. Then they generally agree their own system could be worse.

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THERE IS NO “SANTA STIM”

Its March 2009 and hundreds of state and local newspapers are trumpeting their “piece of the STIM pie”.
Its like STIM Claus has come to town.
No print media mentions that “discouraging word”…borrowed…its ALL borrowed money that must be paid back (mostly to China)
with interest (and not at 3% either).
Notice how when the vote-buying debt train comes to town driven by democrats…its just so kool, so right, so free.
Also notice the network media is unconcerned about WHO will pay.
WHEN the bill hits your mailbox should be on every voter’s mind too.
There is no free lunch or bridge or road or museum or or or.
Socialism is such a sweet deception but reality is standing outside your door.
Did I mention “Son of STIM” is on its way?

SUCKERS.

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Rather than the rise of socialism, I think we are witnessing, for the first time, the end of capitalism.
The greed that made it so successful in a "free market" arena was/is its downfall. Now instead of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer, we will attempt to turn that around.
I don't know if this has happened before, but it sure seems to be happening now.
Perhaps we can have a new philosophy that could reflect prudent fiscal ideas and compassionate social ideas. Kind of like what President Obama is projecting.

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No, we don't have any plans. But what we should at least be able to come forward with would be science- and ethicsbased suggestions as to what a possible non-capitalistic society would look like. What types and levels of consumption are feasible, given our knowledge of global population and available ressources? How much inequality would be acceptable (total equality is a non-starter) without leading to social unrest and war? And we might also suggest ways in which local groups and/or communities could start experimenting with changes in such directions. This would force all of us privileged to reassess our own lifestyle and expectations; in what kind of post-capitalistic society would we be prepared to live and raise our children. I am talking education here, not direct political action. Such will have to wait until we have progressed towards a mature humanity through means like the ones I have sketched here.

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All I can say is if you screaming Free Market Capitalists don't clean up your act very soon, we the American people will only take this Reagan-Friedman Capitalist crap for so long. When it continues for too long we WILL stop you by installing ever more socialistic systems, structures and laws. You No Reg- De Reg Reaganites have taken driven our nation to such greed and corruption that our country is sick of and from your economic terrorism.

If you don't do something about what you have caused, we the people will. If you Rethugs want to continue some version of Free Market Capitalism I can guarantee that it better not be the same as we've seen increasingly over the past 28yrs, beginning with Reagan. You had better be happy with a lot of Free Market Capitalism because we are not going to allow your version of ALL and only totally unbridled unregulated Free Market Capitalism. Your killing the golden egg that made you rich.

IOW, change or die. We will kill you, dead. So you damn well better be happy with some Free Market Capitalism or we will leave you with none.

Instead of coming on this site and spewing your morally bankrupt ways that favor only the few, you better go onto your own Repub party sites and scream about your own corruption. IOW, do the job for us or we will do it for you, and I can damn well guarantee that you won't like it.

And what I've said goes for the Pope, as well. He hates any form of socialism because it is too close to Communism. So the Pope endlessly supports and supported craven Capitalism. And all the while people were dying in Chile(Pinochet) and are selling their bodies and/or dying in Haiti because eating dirt really doesn't stave of starvation very well. And all of the same can be said to the evangelical fundies like Robertson, Hagee and GWB(not all evangelicals).

So the Pope, Pat Robertson and the Republikkkan party better clean up their act or we will do it for them. If we are pushed far enough we will throw out the entire crew of them and install something else. And you/they won't like it.

The Pope(my religion) and his minions have created Theo-Fascism in the Latin American countries and we can all see the deadly and near deadly starving results. Everyday, women and children sell their bodies for something to eat, while Big Business and Big Religion rule.

I can guarantee that it ain't gonna happen in America, or at least not for much longer. Since St. Reagan(Pope John Paul and Jerry Falwell) we've been sinking in the abyss of their mindset. Corporate and wealthy corruption abounds in America.

So if they/you Free Market Rethugs don't want to be cast out make things better, or we WILL cast you out. I guarantee it!!!!! Change or die, "we the people" will kill you. This IS America, not Latin America. What you got away with there you will not get away with here. It's already too late. We are, right now, at the brink. If Obama fails and this country goes down you people --the Reagan Rethugs-- there will be hell to pay. We will bring the hell and you will do the paying. So you Rethugs better pray that Obama succeeds.

A word to the wise had damn well better be sufficient and soon because there is very little time left on your our clock. And our clock WILL be the clock that counts the time.

'nuff said.

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This is a post I made on my blog:

When I read things like If We Are in the Death Spiral of Capitalism, Can We Start Using the "S" Word? I want to jump out of my skin. Yes, yes, yes, it's an intelligent appraisal of the difficulties we are in. And it has a suggestion about how the world might be reorganized. But are there any laws to pass, or stimuli to give out, or businesses to shore up or to let fail that will get us to another reality?

It makes me crazy that we aren't talking about what's more important than any action to take, which is how to think. Although it may not have been uttered by Einstein, whoever said you can't solve problems at the level of consciousness that created them was a wise cookie. We argue about actions to take, while I whisper, "Pay attention to the crop circles."

Look, if we were to ascertain beyond a shadow of a doubt there is other intelligence besides our own, it would produce the biggest change in our thinking in centuries. In fact, since Copernicus and Galileo, who removed Earth from being the center of the universe. That removal from supremacy reordered human thought. A hierarchical world, with kings on the top, which went along with Earth as supreme, no longer could hold sway.

"If we were to discover extra-terrestrial life, it would show that we are not intellectually unique in the galaxy. Man has a tendency to think he's very special. We consider ourselves morally, culturally, and intellectually unique. But if we were to find a signal from another star system, another thinking being, we would know that none of that is true. A connection with another intelligence would be the first bridging across four billion years of independent life in evolution. It would be the end of Earth's cultural isolation in a galaxy and a universe surely containing millions of other civilizations. It would be without doubt the greatest discovery in the history of humankind." - Paul Horowitz, Project Director, Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence (SETI)

So, think about how it would be if we got it that not only isn't Earth the central stellar body, but that humanity isn't the only brainy species. It's one thing where otherness is just in science fiction, but, seriously, just think about what would happen if science fiction became science fact. And I'm not talking about invasion, but everything staying the same except our awareness. Do you think that it soon would be yesterday's news? Never. We would wonder, we would probe, we would see how we might answer back, and we all would be in it together -- one humanity in relation to that otherness. Can't you see that's just the way we need to see ourselves to deal with threats to us that are global now?

For more, see my blog, Making Sense of These Times.

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