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"Consumerism" Is Dead -- Can Obama Lead Us to a Downscaled Lifestyle?

By James Howard Kunstler, Kunstler.com. Posted February 26, 2009.


Dear Mr. President, your assignment is to handle our economic decline in such a way as to avoid wars, civil disorder or both.

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The public perception of the ongoing fiasco in governance has moved from sheer, mute incomprehension to goggle-eyed panic as the scrims of unreality peel away revealing something like a national death-watch scene in history's intensive care unit. Is the USA in recession, depression, or collapse? People are at least beginning to ask. Nature's way of hinting that something truly creepy may be up is when both Paul Volcker and George Soros both declare on the same day that the economic landscape is looking darker than the Great Depression.

Those tuned into the media-waves were enchanted, in a related instance, by Rick Santelli's grand moment of theater in the Chicago trader's pit when he seemed to ignite the first spark of revolution by demonstrating that bail-out fatigue had morphed into high emotion -- and that the emotion could be marshaled against public policy. The traders in the pit on-screen seemed to color up and buzz loudly, like ordinary grasshoppers turning into angry locusts preparing to ravage a waiting valley. "Are you listening, President Obama?" Mr. Santelli asked portentously.

In the broad blogging margins of the web that orbit the mainstream media like the rings of Saturn, an awful lot of reasonable people have begun to ask whether President Obama is a stooge of whatever remains of Wall Street, with Citigroup and Goldman Sachs's puppeteer, Robert Rubin, pulling strings behind an arras in the Oval Office. Personally, I doubt it, but it is still a little hard to understand what the President is up to. For one thing, the stimulus package, so-called, looks more and more like national sub-prime mortgage itself, a bad bargain made under less-than-realistic terms, with future obligations fobbed onto whoever inhabits this corner of the world for the next seven hundred years -- and all to pay for a bunch of granite counter-tops and flat-screen TVs.

I suppose Mr. Obama is burdened with the knowledge that the economic truth is so much worse than he imagined back in November that there is simply nothing to do at this point except pretend to serve up a "tasting menu" of rescue plans in the hope that markets and mechanisms might be conned back into compliance with our wish keep getting something-for-nothing forever. FDR already used the fear of fear itself trope, so Mr. O is left with little more than displaying pluck and confidence in the face of overwhelming bad news.

The sad truth is that banking has become a Chinese fire drill -- a frantic act of futility -- as insolvent companies persist in covering up their losses in order to avoid the counter-party hell of credit default swaps that would ring the world's "game over" bell. This can only go on so long. All the chatter about "nationalizing" the banks really boils down to what kind of bankruptcy work-out will they be put through, how destructive will the process be, and how much of the pain can be shoved forward in time to people now in diapers and their descendants.

Among the questions that disturb the sleep of many casual observers is how come Mr. O doesn't get that the conventional process of economic growth -- based, as it was, on industrial expansion via revolving credit in a cheap-energy-resource era -- is over, and why does he keep invoking it at the podium? Dear Mr. President, you are presiding over an epochal contraction, not a pause in the growth epic. Your assignment is to manage that contraction in a way that does not lead to world war, civil disorder or both. Among other things, contraction means that all the activities of everyday life need to be downscaled including standards of living, ranges of commerce, and levels of governance. "Consumerism" is dead. Revolving credit is dead -- at least at the scale that became normal the last thirty years. The wealth of several future generations has already been spent and there is no equity left there to re-finance.

If contraction and downscaling are indeed the case, then the better question is: why don't we get started on it right away instead of flogging rescue plans to restart something that is DOA? Downscaling the price of over-priced houses would be a good place to start. This gets to the heart of Rick Santelli's crowd-stirring moment. Let the chumps and weasels who over-reached take their lumps and move into rentals. Let the bankers who parlayed these fraudulent mortgages into investment swindles lose their jobs, surrender their perks, and maybe even go to jail (if attorney general Eric Holder can be induced to investigate their deeds). No good will come of propping up the false values of mis-priced things.

No good, in fact, will come of a campaign to sustain the unsustainable, which is exactly what the Obama program is starting to look like. In the folder marked "unsustainable" you can file most of the artifacts, usufructs, habits, and expectations of recent American life: suburban living, credit-card spending, Happy Motoring, vacations in Las Vegas, college education for the masses, and cheap food among them. All these things are over. The public may suspect as much, but they can't admit it to themselves, and political leadership has so far declined to speak the truth about it for them -- in short, to form a useful consensus that will allow us to move forward effectively. One of the sad paradoxes of politics is that democracies do not seem very good at disciplining their citizens' behavior. The wish to please voters and the influence of campaign money overwhelm even leaders with mature instincts. In America's case, this could lead to what I like to call corn-pone Nazism a few years down the road. Someone will design snazzy uniforms and get us all marching around to "God Bless America." At the point of a gun.

It's not too late for President Obama to start uttering these truths so that we can avoid a turn to fascism and get on with the real business of America's next phase of history -- living locally, working hard at things that matter, and preserving civilized culture. What a lot of us can see now staring out of the abyss is a new dark age. I don't think it's necessarily our destiny to end up that way, but these days we're not doing much to avoid it.


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Almost dead.......
Posted by: 2thepoint on Feb 26, 2009 5:02 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As Miracle Max would say, "I’ve seen worse".

Very good article and it makes some points I’ve heard before. We’re on a ride and it will run it’s course. We don’t seem to be anywhere near where this nation was during the depression. Whatever ills our economy had before this crises one thing seems clear, oil and housing tipped the scale and everything started to fall from there.

But consider oil prices for a moment. Gas shoots up to over $4/gal then just as fast is back down to $1.50/gal. Actual supplies aren’t causing this, OPEC is causing this. There was no fundamental shift in output that gave rise to this.

So while I’m not a fan of the stim plan as it seems to be written, I am a fan of our government creating jobs in the private sector through funded infrastructure projects.

Those that overpaid for houses should be allowed take it on the chin. Those that couldn’t afford those houses to begin with should be allowed to take it on the chin. Banks should be allowed to fail and be swallowed up by better managed banks. Employees should take pay cuts to help reduce layoffs, this includes corporate types who are actually the first to take the pay cut.

Painful at first, but necessary as we have gotten to the point in this nation if you don’t have a giant SUV and 2 other cars you’re not doing well.

One thing Obama has succeeded in doing is help fuel the “class war” in this country. While we made it socially incorrect to wear a real fur, we’re on our way to make it socially incorrect for anyone to become rich. Lookout Hollywood!

We seem to have overgrown our economy and need a dose of reality – this is it.

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» What do Iran/Venezuela and the Posted by: weathered
» RE: Almost dead....... Posted by: blondesprite
» RE: Almost dead....... Posted by: mkdelta69
» oil Posted by: zola77
» Miracle Max? Posted by: Dboy
opportunity
Posted by: dcohen@onlinecpi.org on Feb 28, 2009 6:43 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are in a period of decline, but that could be an opportunity to reignite support collective economic security - if we seize the moment correctly. I.e. all the more important to have social insurance programs that cover all,have social systems that meet broad needs.

"You're on your own" doesn't work for people in tightening times.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: So what you're saying is... Posted by: Cybershaman
» new order? Posted by: edgar1
» Read Your Little Red Book Posted by: edgar1
» RE: Actually... Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: opportunity Posted by: VZEQICVA
Don’t worry liberals will sell us out to immigrants just like the Republicans did.
Posted by: Honky the Misanthrope on Mar 2, 2009 12:13 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Blue collar wages will be undercut by illegals. White collar jobs will go to go to a H1B visa holder that pray to an elephant god.

Corporate America loves diversity!

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» Unrestrained capitalism loves cheap labor. Posted by: and_abottleofrum
Sustaining the Unsustainable ... Is Exactly Right ...
Posted by: mmckinl on Mar 2, 2009 12:54 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Zombie banks are sucking the lifeblood out of the economy as we speak. Just one bank, Citibank, will suck out more stimulus than Obama has offered up many months before the stimulus will ever get into the economy. There are many more just like Citi, maybe not as bad, yet, but as the economy cascades all bets are off.

State and local governments are looking at huge holes in tax collection that will quickly consume rainy day accounts like Katrina consumed the Gulf Coast. There will be many years of cuts, just when the programs are needed most.

There are no magic bullets, this conflagration of crises has been decades in the making. It is the culmination of Reaganism, the idea that we all get something for nothing and pay less in taxes to boot.

Will Obama actually tell the American Public that their non-negotiable American way of life has been smashed upon the rocks of unpayable debt, rampant greed and fraudulent expectations foisted on them by his brethren, the pols; the lobbyists,their paymasters the corporatocracy; and the dutiful and willfully blind corporate media and their sycophantic diatribe?

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"Consumerism" is Dead for the Poor NOT for FASCISTS that own Obama
Posted by: Mister_PsyOps on Mar 2, 2009 1:09 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The laughable content and theme of the article above is pure propaganda.

Multinational Wall Street oligarchs that run the charade show that is the monopoly corporate media and circus Washington are richer than ever after having looted the American nation of $8.5 TRILLION and counting. And that was before creating the latest "Federal Reserve" Corp (not federal no reserves) incited casino bubble that ruling class sharks fed on to a greed beyond gluttony.

Let's not forget Trillions to be spent on phony 9/11 "war on terror" that began with a 9/11 coverup for a never-ending killing farce that is already 1000 lies old according the Center for Public Integrity.

America has been flushed into the open for what it is and has been for a hundred years: a shell game and naked Ponzi scheme operated by corporate parasites that are hardly more than professional swindlers, liars and blood money murderers.

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» Only one problem. Posted by: GuitarBill
» RE: Hunt down... Posted by: Cybershaman
Has to try
Posted by: PJT on Mar 2, 2009 1:45 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Even if we are in a permanent decline, or a fundamental economic realignment like the Depression, Obama has to try the conventional fix first. The main reason there needs to be hope that the engine will start up again showed up last week- the budget. The same people who read this pinko blog also want universal health care and crave a post-fossil fuel society. All well and good if you live in a yurt off the grid, and think that is all we need to fund, but but not practical for the millions living in the far suburbs stuck with mortgages that are larger than the value of the house. There are millions in that position who made mistakes, but the losses are so great now that there are millions more who merely bought houses in the wrong place at the wrong time.

First, Obama has to throw money at the problem. If that doesn't work, then he has to go to the next solution, which may be what the nay-sayers such as Kunstler and Limbaugh think they want. Obviously, they are at opposite ends, but they want the same thing-- for Obama to fail.

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» RE: Has to try Posted by: eruditeogre
» RE: Has to try Posted by: bornxeyed
The "Outstanding Job" done by Republicans: Neither They Nor Obama Can Save Us
Posted by: ZPaul on Mar 2, 2009 1:52 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think the Republicans have done an outstanding job of making sure that Obama will be completely bogged down and they can step back in as the "Saviors" of the economy in 4-years' time - or so they think, because this is just going from bad to worse - but maybe, just maybe - the collective memory of this country will start to be a little longer and we will actually remember that it was the rich & their corporations who got us into this - and that , in our mesmerized, consumption-inebriated lethargy, we believed them. But we need to have a lot more independent media, this will at least help to lengthen our collective memory and keep us from going back to sleep. Obama may be a relatively nice guy who gives very good speeches, but he's not going to save us. He will ultimately cover his own backside and save himself. It's up to us, people.

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» RE: Here's President Obama... Posted by: jvaljon1
New Model
Posted by: Sparks56 on Mar 2, 2009 2:13 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What will emerge, if we survive, is an economic model that does not require ever-expanding markets and an endless supply of cheap labor. There will have to be rational limits on human population, a subject about which I've heard precious little of late.
Side note: Has anyone heard from boy George lately? How's he taking all this? He was going to go on a speaking tour to "replenish the old coffers." I want to get in on the over-ripe tomato concession.

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» RE: New Model? Posted by: motamanx6
» RE: New Model? Posted by: Sparks56
» RE: Yes! Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: Yes! Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Yes! Posted by: Sparks56
Comic relief
Posted by: Perry Logan on Mar 2, 2009 3:02 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The meltdown has also flushed out every anti-Federal Reserve conspiracy theorist in the known universe. ;)

The world economy is melting. But no one--least of all the world's economists--understands what's really going on...except for the Federal Reserve conspiracy freaks.

It's good to have some comic relief in these scary times.

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» RE: New Approaches Posted by: oregoncharles
You Just Don't Get It!
Posted by: pinnacle on Mar 2, 2009 3:40 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Like so many others you continue to blame your government for problems mostly created by the general population whose citizens are up to their asses in debt because they bought things they didn't need and were never capable of paying for! What's your credit card balance? Yes, the financial institutions made it easy to use the credit cards but did you have to be a fool and over do it? And, how much equity did you put down on your home when you purchased it? Quit bitching and accept responsibility!

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» RE: You Just Don't Get It! Posted by: Allstar Cookie
» RE: You Just Don't Get It! Posted by: eruditeogre
» RE: You Just Don't Get It! Posted by: clvngodess
» RE: You Just Don't Get It! Posted by: Sparks56
Smearing sh*t on the walls
Posted by: westomoon on Mar 2, 2009 3:45 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Kunstler invoking the dinosaur rage of the trader Santelli is weirdly reminiscent of George Will's infatuation with Springsteen's "Born in the USA" as a fine neocon patriotic song back in the 80's. In both cases, one wants to ask, "Did you understand the words?" That crowd Santelli stirred was his fellow sharks-cum-traders, didja notice? Not exactly working stiffs.

As to the rest of the piece -- yah, Jimmy, that's a great idea, let the last stages of "globalization" take place. Let wages drift down to match Sri Lanka and Bali; let home equity, the one remaining repository of middle- and working-class savings, vanish; and who cares about the human misery that will result. Why are you assuming that all "overreached" homeowners live in McMansions and drive SUVs? The people who scrimped to buy houses that weren't intended for the carriage trade when they were built 60 years ago, and who drive crummy used cars, are going to get pounded worse than the granite-countertop types. Sure, how dare they have purchased anything. "Let them rent" sounds an awful lot like Marie Antoinette -- how can you rent an apartment, or eat cake, when you have no income and no assets? I'd guess it's been a good long while since Kunstler had to come up with first month, last month, and security deposit.

Finally, why is Kunstler so furious at Obama for not having all the answers when there's no one in the world who actually understands what's happening right now, and why is figuring out what to do the exclusive responsibility of the President? Seems to me that there's a strong authoritarian underlying assumption to this piece -- a nice accompaniment to the "let the bastards drown" policy Kunstler advocates. That median-income $50K-a-year family that owns the shitpile they live in doesn't deserve the same fate as the golden-parachute crowd (including the retention-bonus-boy Santelli who speaks to Kunstler's soul) -- but don't try to tell that to Kunstler.

This isn't an article, it's a tantrum -- and a simplistic and infantile one at that.

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» RE: Smearing sh*t on the walls Posted by: masthead
» More whinging Posted by: westomoon
» RE: Smearing sh*t on the walls Posted by: peacefullaim1
Is Mass-Consumerism sustainable?
Posted by: Mary MacElveen on Mar 2, 2009 3:55 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As we go forward, perhaps mass-consumerism may not be sustainable. Please read my piece by going to this link: http://tinyurl.com/deps2a


Mary MacElveen
http://www.marymacelveen.com

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let it go...
Posted by: ellie on Mar 2, 2009 4:06 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
just let this mess go and hit it's own bottom... people will have to figure out how to fill in the gaps as the system implodes, and we are showing the signs already as people realize the disconnect between what is going on with financials and with their own lives... money isn't everything... people helping people out without $$ intervention is the way to go...

we can take care of each other without throwing worthless paper at it... $$'s not coming down the pike to help us... the financials will make sure it's gone before it gets that far... look at AIG, citi and hsbc this morning...

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» RE: let it go... Posted by: VZEQICVA
Obviously Startled and disoriented Rich sleepwalker
Posted by: Purple Girl on Mar 2, 2009 4:16 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Apparently You've just Woke Up!
throughout that entire rant your ideas amount to One, Screw Home Prices? that's It?
You Have JUST realized we've Stopped Circling the Drain and are moving down the pipes? NOW You want to hold the 40 day Pres's Balls to the Fire??? Are You Fucking kidding Me?
Where the hell have you Been for the last 8- 30 years? In an Ivory Tower, sleeping on a hundred mattresses?
Here's whats been going on since you Fell asleep Rip Van Winkle.Let me just hit the highlights..Carter inherited a recession. Reagan instituted the Economic Stratedgy beloved by Monarchies and Dictators, just updated it's name from Feudalism to 'Trickle Down'. He then set in motion the depletion of Middle class wealth through union busting and higher taxes, While spending like a drunken whore. HW continued his legacy and we didn't need to 'Read his lips'- we looked at aour Checks and the Continuing growing deficit. Then came their operative in Blue who signed into law Banking Embezzlement and Extortion practices, whiling kicking the Can down the road. Then King George and all His Kings men racked up trillions on two More Blood for Oil Wars for their Kissing Cousins the Saudis!
If you Feel like Busting soemones balls because You've just figured out YOU have not been in their Royal Court, just another Jester- go scream at those who did this to US again. Seems the Repugs Corn Hole Kitty the Economy and every Dem has to fix the damn thing within a month of taking office.
Your sudden loss of wealth and social Status are apparent.You are acting as irrationally and impulsively as a Startled Sleepwalker.Stop Swinging at the person trying to help you away from the Expressway!
Some of US have stopped conspicuous consume quite sometime ago, because of incomes have stagnated and our basic costs have sucked US dry.We weren't buying lavish vacations or big sreens or SUV's.. we were buying groceries and gas on those credit card out of necessity.The Trickle from the Spiket has left the wealth producers (Labor)dangerously Dehydated. In '00 my husbands income was about 65,000, In '08 30,000, and he's a union carpenter, whos industry relies on consumerism of other industries. Exxon Brings down 45.2 Billion in profits- did they give their workers (riggers) Raises, did they increase their benny packages, Did they renovate? Nope just pocketed the windfall profits from charging US $4.00/gal!
The Only thing we can do Now is to rely on the ONLY Insitution which has the ability to get a Loan- The Gov't- to Create Jobs so the engine of our eocnomy can being moving again.I cheer the purchase of Gov't green cars..It will get the line moving.I cheer the idea of Rail systems- Iron,Steele, Fabrics, Plastics, along with tool & die, casting and engineering, plus station workers for maintenance and security. When the 'line' workers make money,they spend money on local business- they go to the mall, the restuarants, the hardware store.. Oh and they pay their mortgages, their credit cards and their Taxes!!
Pull your head out of your Repug Ass- national Wealth is generated from those who actually produce products and provide Services- Not the investors or their CEO golfing buddies.
See if you can wrap you head around this..Workers are consumers and TAXPAYERs. thus if more people are working, more people are spending, generating a higher demand for more workers to produce. If the majority of people are working the Tax base expands. More people paying taxes, Down goes the deficit!
so your 'cut the prices of Housing and screw all involved' is NOT a solution. It's merely the ranting of a idiot who's been drinking the 'Trickle Down' Koolaid for the last 30 yrs. Sit down Shut up and let US (and Pres O)figure out how to get people working!!!That is the Only way we will not leave our Kids the Clusterfuck Deficit the Repugs have been hell bent on creating over the last 4 decades!

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My American Dream
Posted by: Sojourner on Mar 2, 2009 4:23 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"...to manage that contraction in a way that does not lead to world war, civil disorder or both. Among other things, contraction means that all the activities of everyday life need to be downscaled including standards of living, ranges of commerce, and levels of governance."

My version of the American Dream, described well by the quote above, is now being put to the test. America is about allowing change to happen without violence or unnecessary social pain.

Yes, times have changed. Our economic system was designed for the exploitation of a thinly inhabited continent rich with resources. "Go West, young man."

We have become rich, fat, and ugly from that pattern. The question now is how desperate we get with realization of the enormity of the change.

Sanitelli, who represents the immense financial establishment that can pay unemployed people to fight to keep the old system alive, is part of the small but wealthy band. They will fight to the last dead rat.

But we, who survived all out Civil War, can survive this, too. Let's have some enjoyment in the process. That's what real change is all about.

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that home in the suburbs(or nice loft in the city)
Posted by: edgar1 on Mar 2, 2009 5:04 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Housing-the American Dream. Everyone owns their home. And gets paid by Uncle Sam to do it via generous mortgage deductions(that encourage high interest rates).

Obama is no different than Bush. Everybody must own a home. Can't afford it? "Affordable" housing, where other people struggling to pay their own bills pay yours because you are "low income"- read black or Latino.

And you bought an energy gobbling megamansion or urban megacondo you couldn't afford on your 70,000 per year govt bureaucrat salary or your program analyst salary at EPA? Not to worry. Unca Obama will make those meany ol white men at the bank cut your balances Right Now! Yessir.

Cause we need bigger houses, more houses, more cars, more more more. And screw the country side and what's left of vibrant old neighborhoods in cities.

Buy those votes Barry. You a Chicago boy afterall; even tho you went to those fancy white schools in Hawaii, NY and Cambridge. Oh and don't forget Occidental College. How come you never mention Occidental, Barry?

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The Big Stimulator's number one job is to stop presidential effing up as a matter of policy.
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Mar 2, 2009 5:21 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He needs to quit sending my tax dollars to Iraq and Afghanistan, and rethink the strategic need of having me pay for hundreds of thousands of military folks forward deployed overseas.

After that, Chez Stimulator needs to cool it with the so-called signing statements, which, so far, he has done a good job at.

Beyond that, as Chief Executive, he needs to execute his authority with a great deal less political prejudice than his predecessor.

After he demonstrates that he's doing a great job as prez, THEN--and only THEN--should he turn his attention toward lip-service to make YOU feel like you're being coddled, cared for, and deeply Stimulated. Then we can both support his reelection bid, I suppose.

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Can we shift from a consumption economy to a production economy?
Posted by: charles000 on Mar 2, 2009 5:41 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Can we shift from a consumption economy to a production economy?


The real dilemma here is the ultimate truth that has to be reckoned with, in that we cannot exist in a consumption economy forever.

Over the past several decades we have shifted away from a production economy, to a consumption economy, with our primary export product of "value" being bundled mortgages and various forms of fake equity based on exotic forms of "paper" associated with this commoditized debt.

This is the beginning of the end, not just here but also in many nations around the world who have seen their economies taken down, with their banks failing and stock exchanges in limbo.

What the new economic system architecture might be is anyone's guess, but it can't be the same as what has been. Those days are gone.

One remedy which will have to be in place will be a complete uprooting of the hedge fund / derivatives trading schemes, and a severe limitation on selling stocks short (betting on the failure of a company or a downward stock value).

And, these various "virtual valuation" trading platforms, such debt swapping, and other instruments being used to represent some sort of mythical theoretical value as investment vehicles with leveraging ratios of 500 to one (or worse) - all of these exotic, ill fated experimental hybrid entities will have to be completely removed.

This will require stern, uncompromising regulatory oversight over all participants in our economic system, and a new set of laws that will not only strip away much of these experimental trading and valuation schemes, but also, provide for serious prison sentences in a maximum security federal penitentiary and forfeiture of all personal assets to be meted out to anyone caught violating such regulations and laws,

The party's over - we've got to get back to basics, fix our ailing economic system with new oversight and regulatory requirements, and have no mercy for those who attempt to "game the system" for their own personal gain.

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Well, well, well
Posted by: Cynsity on Mar 2, 2009 5:51 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
you must of had parents and a school who taught you financial responsibility. Financial responsibility is not an instinct, it is a learned behavior. One that I might add the corporations and bankers do not want us to learn. Watched any advertisements lately or seen any in your favorite magazines? Have you had friends that dropped you cause you don't have the latest stuff or experienced the best vacation spots? Let us who have learned to be frugal have some true understanding and demand schools to teach this economic fact and add to all advertisements that buying is dangerous to one's financial heath, so spend wisely.

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sgtmajor
Posted by: seazen on Mar 2, 2009 5:52 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How in the world does this article get to be the Banner on Alternet? The teaser for the article is all you have to read to determine what lies beneath it.

"Dear Mr. President, your assignment is to handle our economic decline in such a way as to avoid wars, civil disorder or both."

Dr. Mr. Kuntsler,

Thank you for your letter and for providing me new clarity about my "assignment." I gather that you have thought about the extraordinary set of challenges that are associated with this decline. I have as well. So have the many advisers around me, many with experience and education that I am sure are almost as good as yours. I have also talked in depth with Finance Ministers and other officials of our allies and trading partners. They probably would also enjoy your thoughtful critique.

I am not totally clear on the nature of the assignment, however, and would appreciate some clarification. In fact, as reported above, I may cheated by involving other experts if you expect me to do this by myself. I was actually hoping that I could involve the whole country and perhaps other nations as well. I was even hoping ordinary American citizens (and extraordinary citizens like yourself) would also help. The issue here is that I really don't think I can pull this off by myself. Man, I even have to deal with a Congress to get anything done and a whole bunch of those folks are so busy trying to figure out how I won the election they can't do much more than whine.

Secondly, I need to know the time frame of this assignment. The guy before me had 8 years. It may be asking a lot but I think I need at least 4 years to complete my assignment. If I read your letter correctly, you have decided that I have already make some mistakes. Did you grade the work or was it your TA?

Greater clarification in this matter would be appreciated and if you have something that you might do in your own community to help some of the folks that are already in distress that, too, would be appreciated.

Thank you

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» RE: sgtmajor Posted by: VZEQICVA
Lip Service
Posted by: tallyhoe on Mar 2, 2009 5:53 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am honestly starting to believe the only thing Obama is good at is giving speeches. Lip service!

RT
Privacy Center

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RE: No Adult Left Behind.
Posted by: edgar1 on Mar 2, 2009 8:56 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These fifty million could be shipped to what used to be called the Great Basin: the area between the Rockies Pacific Coast Mountains. They could develop mountain and pioneer skills. Eventually their numbers would shrink. The remainder would demonstrably be selfsufficient and capable of production of value. Then ship them to Afghannistan, and tell them all the plunder they can take is theirs. Now that's how Alexander the Great and The Romans would have handled the situation in their primes. We won't because we are weak. And our culture is weak and will yield to the uncreative, unintelligent Indian culutures of Mexico and Latin America, or the chaotic and childish cultures of Africa.

The only good thing is that our current day kind of politician will be an anachronism no matter whether civilized people retake control of North America and impose order, or whether the continent falls into the hands of savages far less gracious and spiritual than the Native Americans of the US displaced by the European settlers.

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RE: No Adult Left Behind.
Posted by: nate on Mar 3, 2009 7:56 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The morons already have the high paying positions

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Haven't we already been doing this
Posted by: westomoon on Mar 3, 2009 8:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... for the past 30 years?

Ronald Reagan. Douglas Feith. Paul Wolfowitz. George Bush. Dan Quayle. Rush Limbaugh. Eric Prince. The history of the past three decades is a roster of the congenitally clueless who were placed in high positions at public expense. How about the baby morons we sent to oversee what was intended to be the plunder of Iraq? It turned out to be the plunder of the taxpayer, but the baby morons, and their moronic friends, waxed fat anyway.

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Avoid civil unrest?
Posted by: Hiroak on Mar 2, 2009 6:16 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What would be wrong with a good old fashioned civil war? The crimminal class against the rest of us. GWB should the first casualty with Dick a quick second then we can root out the rest, they're easy to find just look for the gated communities, stupid vain glorious yachts, and private jets. Yeah we might get a rock star or two but no big loss there. These people deserve our disdain and violence has worked well in the past.

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Wait a mintute. Think what you're asking for.
Posted by: metrodorus on Mar 2, 2009 6:40 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I dunno, I find this a mean and disturbing post.
It seems to be salivating for some sort of cataclysm, for human suffering.

I rather suspect Mr. Kunstler will do just fine in this crisis. Millions will not. You can be sure that mental illness, depression, and suicide will result. How can anyone be happy when mothers and fathers worry about how to provide for their kids, when younger people worry how they will take care of their parents and others worry how to take care of their disabled relatives?

What's even more bizarre is the comments that seem to think war, violence and so on are a good thing. Ask people who've actually experienced them. They are not.

I and other members of my family have just seen our retirements evaporate. I don't want to work till I drop dead. I know other people who are losing their homes. That ain't such good thing.

Get a grip, people, this ain't a game. It's very real.

And realize one thing. Such attacks on consumerisim are attacks on your fellow citizens, and ultimately YOU. The money you pay to buy stuff from your fellow citizens is recycled to buy YOUR labor. I'm not saying that the system is ideal or should go unregulated, or should not be changed to be more sustainable. Lord knows, there's plenty of room for reform of the system to make it more sustainable without forcing your fellow citizens into a Cambodia-like holocaust. But you're living in lala-land if you think the suffering isn't eventually going to hit YOU, and worse yet, your loved ones.

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» RE: GRIPPING AND DROPPING Posted by: americansheep
Consumerism is Dead Already
Posted by: eyeonit on Mar 2, 2009 7:19 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The savings rate for Americans now is the highest in many years--3.2%. Americans have already stopped buying. That is what has freaked out Bada Bing Bernanke, and Team Obama. They don't like deflation because the debt-financial and monopoly capitalist economy members are watching their prices drop, while production costs remain basically unchanged. This kills their profits and the stranglehold on the monopoly economy they have held for decades. So Team Obama has been supplying them with US capital to boost their zombie enterprises, instead of taking the capital and rebuilding the nation into a more independent and functional society.

The Repugnicons, now led by Clown Jindal Jihadi are complaining, yet Obama is really doing what they have done for decades--feed the debt consuming oligarchy beast.

http://eye-on-washington.blogspot.com

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Nothing more needs to be said....
Posted by: robertmc on Mar 2, 2009 7:51 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nothing more needs to be said other than this-"The Bezzle Must Stop!"

Until 'we the people' insist that justice be restored, our decline will continue until we reach the event horizon, at which point it is "game over". What becomes of us then is anyone's guess.

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Kuntsler's Analysis Suffers Lack Of Class Consciousness
Posted by: Malcolm Medgar on Mar 2, 2009 7:53 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Scorpion and the Frog

A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The frog asks, “How do I know you won’t sting me?” The scorpion says, “Because if I do, I will die too.”

The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream, the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown,
but has just enough time to gasp “Why?”

Replies the scorpion: “Its my nature…”

The globalizers had to squeeze the last dollar of profit out of the planet and its people. It’s the nature of capitalism. So they have stung all of humanity half way across the river and the paralysis is setting in. The pillars of the economy are crumbling—banking, finance, manufacture, housing, the whole enchillada.

Arable land is dwindling under the strain of historic draught and biblical flooding. Then our daily bread now must be transported over huge distances if we are to eat at all. The same goes for all of life’s other necessities.

If the supply of oil has not begun to run out, it will soon enough. For the sake of a couple extra pennies of gain for Wal-Mart we are to live or die on the availability of cheap and plentiful energy supplies. Dying is becoming the better bet by the day.

Under these developments, the people of the world are struggling with a marked escalation of the class war. Maybe no one has a firm grip on “what is to be done?”, to borrow Lenin’s phraseology. But it is for sure a time to reject fatalism, defeatism, nihilism and any other current which involves the people in rolling over to die quietly.

If Karl Marx was right, we have reached the end times not of humanity but of the capitalist economic system. It is a time when the working class was, through its collective discipline and might, supposed to conduct and win a war with the bourgeoisie and establish its rule. Then the building of socialism was to commence. War, racism and poverty would be banished in the ensuing years along with all of capitalism’s pathological influences on man.

What are the prospects for this scenario? However likely or remote, the idea should not be given up on because the other choices are too horrific to passively accept. They are beyond even the fascism that Kuntsler postulates. More likely the Orwellian state, bands of survivalists roaming a scorched landscape, the extinction of the human being.

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What's REALLY happening here?
Posted by: willymack on Mar 2, 2009 7:58 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is it a realignment of wealth from those formerly rich to...someone else? Who, then? Is it a continuation of the theft allowed by the bushies? Is it some human dynamic we've been heretofore unaware of, or is it the end result of unrestricted capitalism? It seems to me that it'd be a good idea for us to find out, and soon. I, for one, would like to hear someone in the know tell us what's REALLY happening as I haven't the time or inclination to read forty seven books by "distinguished" experts, Nobel Prize notwithstanding. It's beginning to look a lot like 1984 to me. (That's a book, folks).

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» Here's what's really happening Posted by: nigelbest
Downscale??? What have lots of middle class people been doing the last 10 years?
Posted by: frantic1971 on Mar 2, 2009 8:17 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is why some Liberals will never truly resonate with the vast majority out there. An article trumpeting gladly how we all have to "downscale" from our "wasteful" and "extravagent" lifestyle.

What the friggin' hell do you think most middle-class people have been doing for the last 8 years or so?

I live in a 50 year old home with a 30 year mortgage. I have never owned a new car in my life. Most of my friends and neighbors with kids have both parents working full time jobs and even some extra part time just to keep up with the medical bills. NONE of them live extravagently or splurge! They watch every penny.

Now we get inane articles like this that say "downsizing is GOOD for you!". It makes the assumption that most of us have been bellying-up to the bar and stuffing ourselves. Hell! I haven't gotten past the point yet where I am just looking in the friggin' window!

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» RE: Good Point - Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: Good Point - Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Exactly Posted by: oregoncharles
Thank you, Mr. Kunstler
Posted by: oregoncharles on Mar 2, 2009 8:20 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now, are you willing to be locked in a room with Korten, Herman Daley, and the economists who actually predicted our current downfall, like Dean Baker and Nouriel Roubini, until the lot of you agree on a new economics that might get us out of this? (We'll throw food through the window from time to time.) Because some of those economists still think we can "grow" our way out of this depression, like the last ones.

Then, of course, the new team has to convince Obama and the rest of our political leadership that a new economics, and new economists, are desperately needed.

Perhaps we should wait about a year: by then, Geithner and Summers will probably be hanging from lampposts along with the top banksters and the politicians will be a little more teachable.

Anyway, I'm glad to see that reality is affecting your rosy view of Obama. There is an important question here:

A tiny handful of economists have been vindicated by the financial collapse. The rest have been proven wrong, discredited. So why aren't the ones who were proven right in charge of our economy, instead of the ones who were proven wrong? Isn't there something very wrong with this picture?

(To be fair, it's possible I'm wishing ill to Baker, Roubini, and Shiller: they have no wish to be in charge of a disaster.)

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The fundamental game has changed
Posted by: alturn on Mar 2, 2009 8:24 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The last 2,000 years was about learning independence. America in particular learned this lesson so well that we think the entire universe is based on independent planets and stars that have no need for each other. We became the Ayn Rand, John Wayne cowboy culture.

Challenge is, we are going into a new time where the lesson plan is interdependence. Without that awareness and a contemplation of its implications then there is going to be far harder times than are needed. The idea that "the one with the most toys wins" is of the past. The future is more about the one who helps most, using their resources and abilities, their fellow humans and the planet being the aspired example.

All people of the world are in this together. Consumerism is properly dead. Service and beauty are the new foundations of society.

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ahh and there in is the problem
Posted by: madhypnotist on Mar 2, 2009 8:34 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why... why should government be the ones to even be concerned about my lifestyle...


sheep...

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» RE: An answer: Posted by: oregoncharles
New Direction
Posted by: marizara on Mar 2, 2009 8:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What we are witnessing is the demise of the greed-driven economy of the past. -- We are moving toward the future of this world, which must be based upon sanity and decency. -- We have no choice in this, as you can see from what is happening all over the world. -- There will be periods of uncertainty, until we all get into the spirit of this improvement. -- Just think, no one will ever pick your pocket again. -- No pocket, no picking. -- Get used to it.

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» Stop picking on teachers Posted by: nate
gimmie shelter
Posted by: gimmie shelter on Mar 2, 2009 9:13 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Someone earlier mentioned that one thing America could do is begin production again which has up to now been all but dismantled and subsequently shipped abroad. Even if we could, we would still face the daunting reality that there are those in the world who either would work or be forced to work for basically a subsistence wage. We as a nation are not used to such standards except those now forgotten at the bottom of the food chain.

Most people are not familiar with the term "free lunch" but what it means basically is that as new technologies come online in production, owners can drop more workers and still charge the same retail price. So as improvements occur less and less employees are needed and profits go up. I do not think at this phase of our country's evolution this is practicable anymore, we simply have to many people. And starting wars just to feed the machine will not longer work.

What we need is a fundamental reworking of how wealth in this country is distributed and we can start by ending nepotism and inheritance. No longer should families be entrenched in jobs that they have no aptitude for and have not competed for, pedigree can not be a pass for success. Why we do not experience the same bad feeling as when no bid contracts are awarded is beyond me.Similarly inheritance always gives an unfair advantage to whomever the receiver is. How about if their were no inheritance and all citizens were guaranteed the basics and it were up to each individual to push beyond this level to reach their true potential and level of lifestyle. No longer would offspring be able to, generation after generation, live off the interest of what was gotten once upon a time.

Wealth has become or has been the weapon of choice used to gain more wealth and influence and this has got to stop. The scale of greed by these a..holes on Wall Street and the corporations goes beyond belief, or do they really want this country to end up in a revolution. Are they so arrogant to think that nothing touch them or their families, I just do not get their end objective or what they thought would be the way this might all end.

Greed for these people is like an amazing pair of sunglasses that allows them not to see the pollution they have created along with the sickness, the pain and even death they have caused not only to our citizens, but to those in far away places. These masters of the universe need to step down or be eventually pulled down before they cause the world as we no it to end. We and the world are sitting on a powder keg while these idiots are playing with matches.

All should read Kunstler's books to get a better idea of where we may be headed like it or not. The picture we look at needs to be bigger than the one most use at present.

Has anyone thought about the illusion of choice we feel we have in this country. Question how many brands of pet food was affected when the plant in Canada found melamine tainted their products....I think the answer was 92 brands, 92 different style packages, 92 different prices and all for possibly the same crap from one plant. Monopolies are starring us in the face each and every time there is a recall and we find out how many brands are one in the same.

Some how we need to start over and not with the same people and the same motivations, we need community and compassion once again in America for together we can have true voice. Any path we take will be fraught with peril but inaction is just as dangerous, and we need much more change then even President Obama envisions..

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Forget Obama and all the policital hacks- They are part of the problem
Posted by: chlamor on Mar 2, 2009 9:29 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is no political solution.

DEMANDS:

1) Universal Single Payerl Health Care

2) Promotion/Development of Local Food Systems

3) Government subsidized heating programs

4) 90% Reduction In Military Budget

5) Immediate Development Of Nationwide Mass Transit System

6) Immediate Withdrawal Of US Troops From All Parts Of The Globe

7) Triple The Taxes For Anyone Making Over $75,000/ Year. Sliding Scale Tilting Upwards

8) Immediate Dissolution Of All Federal Banking Systems followed by Creation Of Local Currencies

9) Elimination Of Rent/Mortgage

10) Fair Trials For All Members Of The Senate

11) Open Borders For People, Closed Borders For Bananas

12) Elimination of all "Free Trade" Agreements

Naturally when I skipped into my polling place and looked for these issues on the ballot they were nowhere to be seen. Well of course next time I'll be aroused and gleeful to pull that lever "in favor of" but lacking that I’d say it’s time for direct action.

We could learn a lot from the Bolivarian Revolution.

SOLUTIONS:

1) Too much "unity"; too little confrontation...

2) Too old; where are the NAFTA kids?

3) Too organized; the "Mobe" should mobilize (i.e. logistics) - not set goals

4) Too much "bearing witness"; too little "we're going to shut this fucker down"

5) Too little pre-planning; D.C. is the place to swell numbers, after that Baltimore, Philly, NYC... Concentric Circles; go for the kids - they drag everyone else.

6) Too set piece; pro forma - it should be, "Bring your guitar and your motorcycle helmet"

7) Too little culture, or perhaps, just one kind of culture; let a hundred flowers bloom - make it a chance to meet America; turn it into a "festival".

8) Cool Wrong allies - Natural ally is Minister Farrakhan and the nation of Islam (which has turned out the largest street demonstrations in American history); it is a natural alliance; "What would it take, Mr. Minister?"

9) The role of socialists in American street demos is to drag out the numbers and to set an example by getting their heads busted FIRST... not to TALK (this is a socialist talking). Shut the fuck up. Let passion speak.

10) Too much talking in general... The crowd should MARCH... A LOT... They form the mass around which the various tribes can organize sallies and retreat back to... Time to march our ass off.

11) The cops and soldiers are not friendly... they may be an hour before and an hour after but not during... They are the face of the enemy.

12) Not nearly enough, "do your own thing"... need snake dancers, and people who want to sit down while chanting, and those who want to write slogans on the Justice Department and those who want to carry big signs saying "SHAME", and lots of pink people

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Has the Time Come to Reform Capitalism?
Posted by: mkdelta69 on Mar 2, 2009 9:29 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sometimes one has only to pose the question to know the answer. How many of the following questions could you confidently answer with a simple YES or NO?

Do the forces of free-market (unregulated) capitalism tend to narrow the economic gap between rich and poor?

Generally speaking, under capitalism the more money you have the easier it is to make money, and the less money you have the harder. If it were economically feasible to reverse this dynamic, would such a reversal be undesirable?

When you have money you can buy power, and when you have power you can make money. Does an economic system that leads to huge concentrations of wealth strengthen democratic government?

President (senior) George Bush's wife Barbara said in a speech, "Good education is the essential foundation of a strong democracy." If she had said, "Well distributed property is the essential foundation of a strong democracy," would she be articulating one of the core ideals of the Republican Party?

Does John Ralston Saul's contention, `The citizen owns the state,' represent the true state of affairs under the existing form of capitalism?

Many have asserted the existence of a government-corporate alliance. Can these claims be dismissed as fanciful?

Does unregulated capitalism make a serious effort to protect the family, mothers and home makers from the harsh demands on time and energy that prevail in the work place?

Can it be taken for granted that there are bound to be more winners than losers in a free market, deregulated economy?

Horace Greeley remarked, "The darkest hour of any man's life is when he sits down to plan how to get money without earning it." Does the capitalist ethos recognize that such a statement might have some application to share shuffling and currency speculation?

Is money's primary function as a social convenience (i.e. a measure of value, a store of value, and a medium of exchange) completely compatible with it's speculative use as a commodity that is bought and sold in the foreign exchange markets to the tune of over a trillion dollars a day?

Is the spirit of competitive capitalism in complete accordance with the spirit of the Gospels, particularly the verse: `A man's life does not consist in having more possessions than he needs.' (Luke 12:15)?

Fully fledged Capitalism, though comparatively recent in human history, has had a colourful and turbulent career. It has many indisputable virtues, as befits the world's most successful economic system, and it often attracts something akin to religious loyalty. Yet, there have always been people who insist it has equally indisputable vices. Today capitalism affects almost every person on the planet and is poised to play a starring role in a future that is, judging from present indications, mined with explosives. If you would like to inquire more deeply into the phenomenon of capitalism, then we recommend you visit www.basicincome.com, go to the first word of the last paragraph and click on "capitalism". What you will find is a organized collection of quotations which try to give credit and debit where each is due. By the way, if you answered NO to all of the above questions, so by a curious coincidence did we.

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What is with all the chicken littles?
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com on Mar 2, 2009 9:32 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Outstanding consumer debt aside, you guys do realize that buying stuff keeps us all employed, that consumer spending equals 2/3 of GDP.

Everyone freaking out is probably the biggest reason why the economy is grinding to a halt. Fear itself is probably the biggest contributor to this current recession.

The problem with banks like Citi is that the government knows they are insolvent but the cost of the FDIC paying out insurance and letting the bank fail is high. So they would rather give them money to keep them afloat because they think it will be cheaper than FDIC payouts. Plus Citi defaulting on other non-insured assets could cause big unforseen problems in other banks and companies and they don't want to risk that. So the govt will keep giving these banks money hoping it will be cheaper in the long run.

The Obama govt needs to put reforms in place, it is obvious now that when mortgage holders default in mass, the insurance that companies buy to cover this possibility just leads to the insurers going belly-up.

If Obama is smart he will also push for renewable energy programs while oil is cheap so when we climb out of this recession we will have alternative energy sources providing us with electricity to offset the high oil prices when world demand picks back up.


I do not think this recession is the end of consumerism by a long shot. This author has a world view that doom and gloom are inevitable and no facts of any kind will ever change that thinking of his.

Yes the economy is bad and will get worse but it will also get better in time. Freaking out about it will not help and in fact will make it worse.

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» RE: Wrong: Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: What is with all the chicken littles? Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
My favorite line...
Posted by: hollyw25 on Mar 2, 2009 10:18 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
..."get on with the real business of America's next phase of history -- living locally, working hard at things that matter, and preserving civilized culture." Let's all be part of building a transformed future, as quickly, hopefully, and humanely as the mistakes of the past allow for.

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Another BRAVO!
Posted by: Cybershaman on Mar 2, 2009 10:25 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You're a pleasure to read, purplegirl! Glad to see some people have gone beyond the 'blame the victim' mode to really grasp what is going on. Of course, you've left me with nothing to post so my ego is pissed.

Oh, I could go on about how inflation numbers have been skewed, by cheap electronics produced by third world labor offsetting the rise in our basic cost of living (like groceries, health insurance and care, energy, housing), but we all know that already. Well, most of us do.

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» RE: Wow. Posted by: Cybershaman
I usually agree with Kunstler
Posted by: badkitty on Mar 2, 2009 11:44 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I usually agree with Kunstler, but not this time. Although I was a lukewarm supporter of Obama in the end, I have been impressed with the amount of common sense he has shown since the election. It's true I'm unhappy with a lot of what he's done and proposed, but I agree with PJT. He needs to try the conventional fixes first (outside of what the Republicans tried the last eight/thirty years to prove that their brand of conservatism does not work). As things go from bad to worse, and I do think Obama actually understands what the real threats are to the world (climate change, economy, peak oil), I think he will insist on real change--local, sustainable economies across the country. A lot of people will try to hang onto the old ways (the ways from say, 1948-2008), but the survivors will end up with a much more localized lifestyle, and I think Obama will start to emphasize that down the road. I'm waiting for him to start growing vegetables and fruit on the White House grounds, as well as raising some animals. Then we'll know change is here!

Of course, that's implying there will be survivors, and I'm not that sanguine...

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gimmie shelter
Posted by: gimmie shelter on Mar 2, 2009 12:19 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let the a..holes that caused this melt down and lost our money lose their money also, do not buy any stocks. We really do have the power if we decide to use it, they just don't want you to think so. Look at what is happening to the markets today, does it sound like a message to these crooks and their masters.

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Since when was it a president's job to lead people out of rampant consumerism?
Posted by: maxpayne on Mar 2, 2009 12:33 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Part of the solution is sitting down, reconciling, and putting one's own mindset out of materialistic thinking will help. Another part is definitely getting Congress and the White House to fix those god awful policies and I do agree that we're rife with policies that reward rampant consumerism all the while not rewarding or worse punishing frugality.

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» Good Point Posted by: tommy_slothrop
The New Leaders
Posted by: Dixie Dawg on Mar 2, 2009 12:46 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are kids in dorm rooms thinking up stuff; folks doodling on the back of envelops at their kitchen tables, and more than a few thumbing through back issues of what ever they read that fires their imagination.

These kids, folks, and thumbers through will skip the current catastrophe and if by magic negotiate the much proclaimed and what seems to have become the eagerly awaited total collapse of everything.

It appears that so many have become so invested in the coming disaster that it will be a disappointment for them when it doesn't happen.

Yep, these kids, folks, and thumbers through are daring to think and act and gather courage to risk and build and press on. You don't hear much from them. The reason is simple. They are to busy doing and building to repackage and repost what is already history. I throw in my lot with them.

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» RE: The New Leaders Posted by: nate
» RE: The New Leaders Posted by: Dixie Dawg
Apprenticeship and Skilled Trades
Posted by: stellabloo on Mar 2, 2009 1:02 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We need to bring back the apprentice system. Right now the only place you can apprentice for free is through the army - ridiculous. The apprenticeship system is how Germany rebuilt after WWII: you create a highly trained workforce with little cost to both the employer and the government. Only kids who are both rich AND intelligent get to go to university.

It seems like a cruel system sometimes but the alternative is what we have now: a nation of minimum wage service workers with a preponderance of know-nothing management :.(

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» RE: Apprenticeship and Skilled Trades Posted by: gimmie shelter
» RE: a rerun? Posted by: stellabloo
nation of overfed clowns
Posted by: astralman on Mar 2, 2009 3:02 PM   
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i'm disappointed in obama, particularly w/ his comment about how we can't walk away from the automobile lifestyle. the fact is, we can and need to get away from it. we can't continue being a nation of zombie consumers driving everywhere polluting the planet and destroying it through resource extraction and manufacturing. the suburbs as we know them now are the product of the rich who sought to escape the filthy cities they created. our "standard of living" is absurd and we need to change our behavior. remember george carlin? "they call it the american dream because you have to be asleep to believe it."

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Easy on down the road
Posted by: jlowelld on Mar 2, 2009 4:03 PM   
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It seems that even those who have understood for decades that a system of unending 'growth' is unsustainable, are having a trouble swallowing the reality of what we now face. The raw evidence of cultural decline doesn't necessarily imply an acceptance of that reality. For Obama to ease western culture into a new self-image, one thats not dominated by industrialism, while at the same time avoiding WWIII and/or total civil breakdown, he will need to coordinate all the social mechanisms into a balanced descent. The military is massive and represents a huge danger; the oligarchy/dominate capital controls the cultural apparatus and needs to be placated; the food system is fragile and could collapse if improperly handled. If it turns out that Obama is just a shill of the wealth interests, then the decline will collapse with a resounding "thud." If he's able to balance the descent, things may transpire with the culture changing but remaining more or less stable. In either case change is coming and it's as necessary as it is inevitable--but not may not be 'pleasant.'

"What the caterpillar calls the end,
The world calls a butterfly" - Lao Tze Tao

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» RE: asy on down the road Posted by: Dboy
Homeless English Single Men in Modern Cars Sleeping Outside Our Home With The Engine On To Keep Warm
Posted by: tony_opmoc on Mar 2, 2009 4:16 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When it was incredibly cold - we asked him in gave him a cup of coffee and cos it was late - told him when he had finished his cup of coffee we were chucking him out and did

But several weeks later he is back and still doing it

What the fuck are we supposed to do?

This is ENGLAND

All he has to do is turn up at the Social Services and he will be Housed

He will get a roof over his head and be fed

Camping outside our house in his car - is O.K. I don't care if he wants to do that - and I am not going to report him to the police

But why is he doing it?

Sure its a free world

If you want to park your car outside our house and leave the engine on all night - as you sleep - then you aren't breaking any laws

But there has got to be a better way to live

Tony

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Consumerism needs to die...........
Posted by: yale on Mar 2, 2009 5:13 PM   
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but not before all the "good consumer" zombies realize whats happening, so when it comes back, they don't fall into the sea of B.S. that they are choking on now.

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I Met Christopher at A World Music Event
Posted by: tony_opmoc on Mar 2, 2009 6:12 PM   
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I immeditately fell in love with the lighting in the tent at WOMAD

But he wouldn't start playing people were just taking photographs

And the conditions were absolutely AWEFUL

The worst ever at a Festival in England

The Mud was so Deep

So I said well if he isn't going to play then fuck him

I just want to get back to my tent

But my wife would not be moved

So I went outside - trying to drag her way

But she wouldn't come

So I started talking to some OXFAM people about Global Cooling and the Coming Ice Age

And then he started playing

So I went back inside the tent

This is my mate Christopher's Website

http://www.trancevision.com/

Tony

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And As I Approach My 90th Year On This Planet I Remember When I Was a Sperm
Posted by: tony_opmoc on Mar 2, 2009 7:57 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I do realise as you get towards your 90th year on this planet your memories as a Sperm come back and you are just swimming up the Vagina and you see this lovely glowing Sun - an Egg

And you are just so completely fucking determined you are going to fuck her and you do and make a Baby

And you are now Growing in Your Mother's Womb

And You Think

Fuck Me - I am Going To Do That Again

And O.K. I am in my 50's but I think my theory of life, the universe and everything which I talked about with my mate Paul - whilst we bth fancied Tinkerbell like fuck

Are at least as good as anyone else's

Big Bang?

That is a really stupid theory based on the observation that the Universe is expanding

So these "Clever" physicists just rewind it

Oh the Universe is getting bigger - its expanding

So at some point in the distant past the Universe must have started from nothing then a big bang

I'm not saying it didn't

So fucking what?

You have just taken me back to primary school when I was 4 years old

Where have I come from

God made you

Now I think both theories are silly - and there is no finite resoltion of them

But if you consider Time -like it looks like it is linear - but so does the planet Earth if you are standing on it ad start walking - you should eventually get back to the same point (well taking the ups and downs which I have also done

It still doesn't invalidate my theory that time is cyclic

So when I die - I will go to heaven

Because when I die time is completely irrelevant with regards to how long it takes

So I die and go to heaven

And heaven is when I become aware of myself sucking my own thumb in my Mother's Womb

And then I get born and live exactly the same life as I lived before and I die

And there is absolutely no escape

Because I have always done this and always will

But not only have I done this - forever - all life has.

Its not about justice - its about what maybe reality

Alternatively it may be linear and you live one life and then die and that it

There ain't a great deal of difference

But if I come back as a Rabbit I want to be a Male One

I am not bothered about brest feeding loads of little rabbits

I just want to Fuck

Tony

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This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.
No it isn't
Posted by: reg373 on Mar 2, 2009 10:08 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As industry moves to the 3rd World, consumption is 2/3 of the GDP of developed nations. Sure, many people will scale back now out of caution or necessity, but after appropriate new regulations and social safety nets are installed, new boom cycles will happen.

-- cool site I came across; Balkingpoints.com -- incredible satellite camera view

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All too true
Posted by: yesman on Mar 2, 2009 10:39 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Every word and idea contained in this article is true. The sooner we confront and deal with these truths, the better off we all will be. However, there are few signs yet of any large-scale recognition of these truths. So much the worse for us.

The only bone I would pick is with the term "downscale." I think it's a bit too negative--as if we're losing something valuable. Actually, we should be happy to bid consumerism adieu. It could never have lasted anyway, and good riddance! We will, however, have to be creative to replace it with something better, rather than the "cornpone Nazism" to which Mr. Kunstler so colorfully alludes.

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But for the Owning Class...
Posted by: DaBear on Mar 3, 2009 12:02 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We might actually be able to formulate a reasonable plan and convert our economy to something that actually works. But see, rich people like things this way.... just saw a guy the other day boasting about all the bailout money he's gotten. He's just picked up a new Ferrari and my daughter put a giant dent in his Porsche (which gave me a heart attack because I happen to love Porsches even though that's about as close as I'll ever get to one) he shrugged and said, "there's more bailout money than me and my partners know what to do with."

Rich people are our biggest problem and the greatest obstacle to progress. But hey, don't take my word for it, go watch how these people think about everyday stuff and then read the stimulus bill and the budget.... the logic is absolutely craptastic.

The question becomes, how the hell do we get rid of those riff-raff at the top who are weighin' the ship down?

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» Why we have an owning class Posted by: nigelbest
According to Harper's Magazine............
Posted by: RickW on Mar 3, 2009 7:19 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
..........61% of jobs in America are a direct result of consumer spending (ie. "conspicuous" consumption). That's a awful lot of people to find alternate occupations for, if we are to downsize.

Maybe it's time for a guaranteed annual income. I mean, the banks, auto companies, and financial houses seem to have a pipeline into the treasury. So why not the average citizen -- you know, the one who's major "investment portfolio" takes place at the grocery store every payday?

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Pointman has a fart in his skull.
Posted by: yellow on Mar 4, 2009 1:49 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Don't listen to troll morons. Ed Flaherty at Public Eye has a ten part series on the history and workings of the Fed. He is an economics professor and knows better than psycho-troll morons Pointman and Mister PsyOps.

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The Republican Party, the Corporate Press, and Private Interests
Posted by: RR#1 on Mar 9, 2009 4:38 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
will not allow Obama to change anything and are proving it everyday. Lou Dobbs asking is President is a socialist ( it would be good if he was, perhaps he would then understand this system cannot be reformed and quit wasting time) Now they are simply pointing to him as inept, just not up to the job, lakes the social skills, you know what I mean ( wink, wink) I guess they knew a Black Man could never handle the Presidency! It is coming and it will get worse as the economy gets worse or Obama gets progressive. Like actually does something for health care, education, housing, what you will get will be the government giving private enterprise contracts in these departments and they will of course price it out of existence all on the backs of the working people.
RR
Yours,
RR

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