COMMENTS: 74
America's Municipal Meltdown: It's Tough Times for Troubled Towns
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When Barack Obama traveled to Elkhart, Indiana, to push his $800 billion economic recovery package two weeks ago, he made the former "RV capital of the world" a poster-child for the current economic crisis. Over the last year, as the British paper The Independent reported, "Practically the entire [recreational vehicle] industry has disappeared," leaving thousands of RV workers in Elkhart and the surrounding area out of work. As Daily Show host Jon Stewart summed the situation up: "Imagine your main industry combines the slowdown of the auto market with the plunging values in the housing sector." Unfortunately, the pain in Elkhart is no joke, and it only grew worse recently when local manufacturers Keystone RV Co. and Jayco Inc. announced more than 500 additional job cuts.
In a speech at Elkhart's town hall, Obama caught the town's plight dramatically: "[This] area has lost jobs faster than anywhere else in the United States of America, with an unemployment rate of over 15 percent when it was 4.7 percent just last year… We're talking about people who have lost their livelihood and don't know what will take its place… That's what those numbers and statistics mean. That is the true measure of this economic crisis."
Elkhart, as it happens, is but one of countless towns and small cities across the U.S. that have proven particularly vulnerable to tough times simply because their economies relied on just a few major employers, or a single industry, or even a single company that has gone under or cut back drastically. Places like Elkhart are feeling the pain in ways most of the country isn't -- yet; and even worse, from the out-of-work to local officials, no one knows how to stop the bleeding.
Take Dalton, Georgia, and its 33,000 residents. As the self-proclaimed "Carpet Capital of the World," it wasn't exactly well positioned when the foreclosure crisis hit and the construction industry ran off the rails. In fact, with its carpets piling up underfoot rather than heading out the factory doors, the housing crisis has all but wrecked Dalton which, from the 1980s to last year, had never been at a loss for jobs. Now, the Atlanta Journal-Constitution reports, U.S. Bureau of Labor statistics show the Dalton metro area ranking "second among 369 American cities in its rate of job loss, jumping from 6.2 percent to 11.2 percent last year."
Across the country, individuals, foreclosed or suddenly jobless, have been melting down like the economy and so bubbling up into the news in the form of extreme acts ranging from suicide and murder to arson and robbery. The same might now be said for news about whole troubled communities.
A few months ago, stories of economically-troubled towns were strictly local fare. Now, more and more of them are rising to regional or national attention. Take Lehigh Acres, Florida, a community that's home to large numbers of carpenters and pest exterminators who rode the housing boom until it went bust in a county that, between June 2007 and June 2008, lost a higher percentage of jobs (8.8%) than any other in the nation. A New York Times article on the "once-middle-class exurb" detailed the devastation:
"[H]omes are selling at 80 percent off their peak prices. Only two years after there were more jobs than people to work them, fast-food restaurants are laying people off or closing. Crime is up, school enrollment is down, and one in four residents received food stamps in December, nearly a fourfold increase since 2006."
Similarly, the Wall Street Journal profiled the plight of Rockford, Illinois, an industrial city about 90 miles northwest of Chicago with 12.5% unemployment, the highest in the state, a shortfall of $7.6 million in the city's budget, streets filled with "gaping potholes" and a "city center… rife with vacant storefronts."
Most of America's desperate towns and small cities, however, still remain relatively anonymous. Even with their pain quotient on the rise, they lack New York Times profiles or presidential photo ops to draw attention to their woes. But it's important to note that Elkhart, Dalton, and Lehigh Acres aren't American oddities. Other towns and cities in surprising numbers are following fast down the path they have already cleared. Such places are now hurt or possibly, in some cases, even dying -- with little in the way of hope or help in sight. Under the circumstances, they should no longer be treated as individual stories, locally or nationally. They represent a pattern, and putting even a small number of their stories together casts a light on a disturbing countrywide trend that may determine the tomorrows of a remarkable number of Americans.
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Posted by: Ka-bird on Feb 23, 2009 12:52 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wonder how many middle American Republicans will ever grasp this.
Let's see how much Jesus, flag-waving, gay-bashing and "family values" offer comfort now.
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» Well put
Posted by: kegbot1
» The Great Depression
Posted by: RickW
» RE: BaBird
Posted by: drohlman
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Posted by: Lily H. on Feb 23, 2009 1:33 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
tombs sprouting like mushrooms, and Wikipedia pages,
"Defunct Chain and Dept. Stores". A real eye-opener.
Just a thought, wonder if wife-killer Scott Peterson
would have lost his fertilizer salesman job in Modesto
if he hadn't killed Laci?
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» Re: Check Out deadmalls.com...
Posted by: Seeker
» RE: e: Check Out deadmalls.com...
Posted by: Lily H.
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Posted by: Zeugitai on Feb 23, 2009 1:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: 303 million people
Posted by: disc golf
» RE: 303 million people
Posted by: peacefullaim1
» Increased population increases economic activity
Posted by: billwald
» RE: Increased population increases economic activity
Posted by: peacefullaim1
» RE: New York in the seventies
Posted by: Pissed Off Woman
» Just Go West
Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
» RE: Just Go West
Posted by: RickW
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Posted by: poetrylark on Feb 23, 2009 2:00 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes we are heading into the worst economic disaster the world has ever seen. Much worse than the 1930's
depression.
But it could be a fairly short lived recession/depression if Barack and other leaders made the right moves.
Be aware that it is all happening because of banking decisions. The banks have got themselves into trouble by foolish policies and irresponsible investments . Now they are restricting credit so businesses will soon have trouble surviving due to not having short term finance which they often rely on.
There is an alternative to this madness.
It simply needs the setting up of federal treasury banks using local post offices as their branch offices.
Once that happens then the government can ignore the private banks and give large loans to everyone at low interest rates. A lot of this money they would get back from direct and indirect taxes, but if every week a livable wage was placed into everryone's bank account by electronic means, then people would relax and return to spending as they used to do and economies would prosper again.
We were heading into the age of leisure anyway before this economic meltdown, but millions of people losing their jobs permanently - will only bring on a leisure (mainly jobless) society more quickly.
If you have a regular income placed in your bank account each week, then you don't much care about not having a job. And the federal treasury can do that for everyone indefinitly.
So instead of fear and foreboding about the future, lets just tell the politicians to set up
new government sponsored banks lending at low interest. People could borrow enough money to pay off their mortgages and credit card debts to the private banks and then head off to the golf course or the beach so to speak.
Using the federal treasury to finance everything, was what Abe lincoln did during the American civil war.
It is the way forward, but we need to spread the news
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Posted by: -matti on Feb 23, 2009 2:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Over a century and a half ago, the man called by his enemies "Chief Seattle" is said to have said thus:
Yonder sky that has wept tears of compassion upon my people for centuries untold, and which to us appears changeless and eternal, may change. Today is fair. Tomorrow it may be overcast with clouds. My words are like the stars that never change. Whatever Seattle says, the great chief at Washington can rely upon with as much certainty as he can upon the return of the sun or the seasons. The white chief says that Big Chief at Washington sends us greetings of friendship and goodwill. This is kind of him for we know he has little need of our friendship in return. His people are many. They are like the grass that covers vast prairies. My people are few. They resemble the scattering trees of a storm-swept plain. The great, and I presume -- good, White Chief sends us word that he wishes to buy our land but is willing to allow us enough to live comfortably. This indeed appears just, even generous, for the Red Man no longer has rights that he need respect, and the offer may be wise, also, as we are no longer in need of an extensive country.
There was a time when our people covered the land as the waves of a wind-ruffled sea cover its shell-paved floor, but that time long since passed away with the greatness of tribes that are now but a mournful memory. I will not dwell on, nor mourn over, our untimely decay, nor reproach my paleface brothers with hastening it, as we too may have been somewhat to blame.
Youth is impulsive. When our young men grow angry at some real or imaginary wrong, and disfigure their faces with black paint, it denotes that their hearts are black, and that they are often cruel and relentless, and our old men and old women are unable to restrain them. Thus it has ever been. Thus it was when the white man began to push our forefathers ever westward. But let us hope that the hostilities between us may never return. We would have everything to lose and nothing to gain. Revenge by young men is considered gain, even at the cost of their own lives, but old men who stay at home in times of war, and mothers who have sons to lose, know better.
Our good father in Washington--for I presume he is now our father as well as yours, since King George has moved his boundaries further north--our great and good father, I say, sends us word that if we do as he desires he will protect us. His brave warriors will be to us a bristling wall of strength, and his wonderful ships of war will fill our harbors, so that our ancient enemies far to the northward -- the Haidas and Tsimshians -- will cease to frighten our women, children, and old men. Then in reality he will be our father and we his children. But can that ever be? Your God is not our God! Your God loves your people and hates mine! He folds his strong protecting arms lovingly about the paleface and leads him by the hand as a father leads an infant son. But, He has forsaken His Red children, if they really are His. Our God, the Great Spirit, seems also to have forsaken us. Your God makes your people wax stronger every day. Soon they will fill all the land. Our people are ebbing away like a rapidly receding tide that will never return. The white man's God cannot love our people or He would protect them. They seem to be orphans who can look nowhere for help. How then can we be brothers? How can your God become our God and renew our prosperity and awaken in us dreams of returning greatness? If we have a common Heavenly Father He must be partial, for He came to His paleface children. We never saw Him. He gave you laws but had no word for His red children whose teeming multitudes once filled this vast continent as stars fill the firmament. No; we are two distinct races with separate origins and separate destinies. There is little in common between us.
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» RE: Why such Hardship in a land of Plenty? (continued)
Posted by: -matti
» RE: Why such Hardship in a land of Plenty? (concluded)
Posted by: -matti
» There is hope...
Posted by: -matti
» gimmie shelter
Posted by: gimmie shelter
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Posted by: Vic Fedorov on Feb 23, 2009 4:28 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Their is wisdom and empowerment when people put their heads together. What the people want and think and need for their time and life can be considered.
You point out local officials who have usurped this vital dialogue violate the tenth's reservation of powers to the state or the people: our founders intended for local free assemblies to be municipal government.
The solution is that simple. But this is practically a civil rights movement for the civil right of free assemblies in that state constitutions often incorporated towns with local officials, in violation of the 14th amendment's edict against states making or enforcing laws that abridge priviledges and immunities of the constitution, such as not being ruled locally by a few, when all are equal and should reason together.
Community rooms and parks are not always easy to line up thus abridging free assembly
Vic Fedorov, NJ
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» Organize food cooperatives
Posted by: Beck
» RE: Organize food cooperatives
Posted by: gandolfshep
» RE: Organize food cooperatives
Posted by: FAITHCARR
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Feb 23, 2009 4:34 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The difference is rail, both above and below ground, and because gas is relatively expensive in Japan, unlike in the U.S.
Some towns, just like after the oil boom around Odessa Texas, are doomed to become ghost towns if folks can't get from there to decent jobs without unreasonable cost or inconvenience.
No matter how quaint the wee downtown area...
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» About gas prices, they're artificially "low" in this country.
Posted by: maxpayne
» "America is still living in an oil bubble."
Posted by: ABetterFuture
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Posted by: xvictor on Feb 23, 2009 5:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Many of them are now closed up and abandoned. It'd be great to just tear 'em all down and let nature take over once again. Poetic justice, actually.
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» Dead Malls are cool but...
Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
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Posted by: fred_53_99 on Feb 23, 2009 5:29 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This has to happen;America must let go of the old myth of what we are and what we have been.Cuba has a better health care system, Canda manages it's ecomony better, France as free college education. We got "American Idol".If we as a people do not choose to grow up ,we will not leave this ression. But then Shara Palin can always remind us of how stupid we really are,perhaps too stupid to exist as a country.
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» RE: Whats really important!
Posted by: ADCS
» RE: Whats really important!
Posted by: Axiom69
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Posted by: Growthbuster on Feb 23, 2009 6:03 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Productivity improvements without an accompanying cutback in work hours have left us with a lot of folks whose jobs involve providing luxuries, not meeting needs. Now the economy is correcting for that. We can't afford the luxuries, so there are not enough jobs to go around - not if we insist they pay enough to maintain our luxurious and consumptive lifestyle.
Also, packing people into cities and moving them farther away from the source of what they need (land = food), has put most of us in the precarious position of only being able to sit and wait and hope for a job. There was a day when you just rolled up your sleeves and grew or hunted some food when times got tough.
Finally, America's cities are a mess largely because they are growth addicts. They allowed infrastructure backlogs to grow so they could pretend growth was creating community prosperity. All along the externalized costs of growth were strangling them. Now the growth junkies are crashing, and they believe they just need to get another fix and everything will be fine. In truth they need to get into a recovery program.
Dave Gardner
Producer/Director
Hooked on Growth: Our Misguided Quest for Prosperity
www.growthbusters.com
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» I'm would half dispute this
Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
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Posted by: undead on Feb 23, 2009 6:14 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now you are reaping the harvest of those choices. Too bad the few who voted for Mr. Nader have to live with your stupidity.
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» How did your one of 736,804 votes change anything? The rest of can't stay duped like this.
Posted by: Beck
» My vote for Nader kept MO red but could care less if it was red or blue.
Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield
» RE: My vote for Nader kept MO red but could care less if it was red or blue.
Posted by: peacefullaim1
» RE: It's not about winning, it's about doing the right thing
Posted by: DCostello2
» OK, tell us what Nader would have done different?
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» RE: It's not about winning, it's about doing the right thing
Posted by: peacefullaim1
» Yes, the third party fan's refusal to kiss Beck's behind is the reason they lose elections.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» RE: Who did you vote for?
Posted by: helenahanbasquet
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Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield on Feb 23, 2009 6:45 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Like Eastren Carolina
Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
» RE: Whenever I visit my folks once in a while back in small town MO from St Louis,
Posted by: helenahanbasquet
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Posted by: Purple Girl on Feb 23, 2009 7:14 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If I can Get a Job, My husband be assured of steady work and keep my Home, taxes wouldn't be a problem. In fact if I had to pay a bit more to assure the three kids across the street won't have to be carried on welfare now or for the rest of their lives due to unemployment or shitty Education- It would be my Pleasure. god knows I'm hoping theres a work force to help support me when I can no longer do it for myself.Tax Cuts and Deficit Reduction is an oxyMORONIC ideology.
Generating Jobs will increase the Tax base,through personal income and property taxes. That is the ONLY way to reduce the deficit.How Dare McCain cry about theft from the next generation when he has aided and abetted the Orgnaized Crime Syndicate who's already committed the Greatest heist. Probabaly because Mac's already got one foot in the 'Bucket' anyway.'Family man'? A guy who leaves his ailing wife, shoves his kids into the shadows on the campaign trail and needs a Baby factory VP to round out his 'Family man' credentials- Please! Mac wouldn't recognize Family Values or Parental Responsbilty if they came up and Kicked him in the balls while bitch slappping the hell out of him- What an Asshole!
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» The tax cut madness is still out there but you are correct that it is waning.
Posted by: maxpayne
» I'm starting to wonder
Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
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Posted by: ron heringhauser on Feb 23, 2009 7:27 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: roli on Feb 23, 2009 7:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: thelorax on Feb 23, 2009 7:57 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Economic growth is simply an increase in the production and consumption of goods and services. Economic growth has provided many benefits over time, but now it is causing more problems - dire problems - than it solves. Slowly but surely, economic growth has become a primary threat to the environment, national security, international stability, and future generations. Yet it remains the highest priority in the domestic policy arena of the United States and most other nations. Citizens, especially students, are continually told that there is no limit to growth, in defiance of ecological principles and basic physics. To refute the misleading rhetoric that there is no conflict between economic growth and environmental protection - as well as economic sustainability - CASSE provides information on the downsides of growth with an emphasis on ecological concepts.
The Steady State Economy
A prosperous and dynamic economy does not have to be a growing economy. A steady state economy features stabilized population and consumption. Such stability means that the amounts of resource throughput and waste disposal remain roughly constant. The key features of a steady state economy are: (1) sustainable scale, in which economic activities fit within the capacity provided by ecosystems; (2) fair distribution of wealth; and (3) efficient allocation of resources.
http://www.steadystate.org/CASSEBasics.html
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» RE: thelorax...
Posted by: peacefullaim1
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Posted by: Urstrly on Feb 23, 2009 8:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dalton is characterized by a wide divide between haves and have-nots. There's been a general resistance to unions, and much of the labor is performed by immigrants from Mexico. People may grouse about the "immigrant burden," but they're mightily resistant to raising wages and taxes, too.
I've been hearing a lot about how we can't protect our industries without triggering reciprocal trade barriers, but we seem to have the worst of both worlds: manufacturers have been allowed do as they wish when business is good, but no one is safe when business is bad. No new homes equals no need for carpets. Who will protect the newly poor from sub-prime mortgages and loss of health insurance (if they ever had it)? I'm not sure it's on Dalton's radar.
It would be nice if the schools there benefitted from the stimulus. At least students would be prepared when the economy picks up, and better educated students wouldn't be so dependent for employment on the mills and all the fast-food restaurants and discount stores that they attract.
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» RE: Dalton, GA
Posted by: helenahanbasquet
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Posted by: eyeonit on Feb 23, 2009 8:39 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
President Obama's top-down embrace the mega-banking system will not help a darn thing.
The US is in a new paradigm. Only a rejuvenation of a bottom up labor driven, new manufacturing paradigm must be brought into play. It is time to kick the banker thieves off the bus, and realize that consumerism is history.
http://eye-on-washington.blogspot.com
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Posted by: djnoll on Feb 23, 2009 9:21 AM
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A sustainable community makes its economic decisions with two additional factors in the equation: social justice (equity, poverty alleviation) and environmental protection (conservation of natural resources, nature). When decisions are made that insure that both of these elements are protected, how you approach unemployment, family health, food security, and community growth become assured. It requires a change in how we think, but also how we live with each other.
When communities like those in the articles can learn to come together as neighbors, instead of competitors for jobs, they can begin to see how to get out of this mess. It will require civic and town leaders to set aside political agendas and start thinking outside the box, looking to the past for some ideas and implementing new technologies to get things done. It means small manufacturing companies that are locally owned supported by small businesses locally owned and patronized by local citizens. It means driving out the Wal-Marts and the Home Depots, and re-establishing the local grocery stores and hardware stores.
I recently thought about how many jobs could be created in my rural town with just one small manufacturing firm, one medium size seasonal charity, and a dozen family owned businesses. The total number: 269 jobs for a town of 1600 people, and this is not counting a local community farm with 20 employees. And right now, we have only three businesses employing about 50 people, the rest commute to Las Vegas, 30 miles away to work.
It can be done if the towns want to do it. It can be done if the people are willing to do the work. We can save our small towns, and do it sustainably, if we truly change how we think in a modern world.
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» RE: Hindsight is 20/20
Posted by: Growthbuster
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Posted by: zauche on Feb 23, 2009 10:35 AM
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Posted by: poetrylark on Feb 23, 2009 11:10 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is he progressive or conservative ?
In broad terms he seems mildly progressive but mind boggling economic circumstances can make anyone take dramatic new initiatives which would not be considered in normal times.
For Instance FDR confiscated Gold in the 1930's.
Under normal circumstances there is no way that he would have done that.
I suspect that the Banks have planned this meltdown
and intend taking everyone down with them as the various economies implode. Once everyone is financially ruined, Only the Banks will be able to
return to their previous dominant position, because
they ultimately create any money that is acceptable.
But their plans are nineteenth century plans.
Crude manipulation of whole populations for monetary gain.
They do not appreciate that a whole new class of well educated outspoken people with excellent communications will not tolerate being deliberately
financially ruined.
Politics is a cake walk in prosperous times, but in times of economic disaster it can be a night mare for politicians.
A million angry demonstrators on the streets demanding that their elected representatives DO SOMETHING NOW is hard to ignore.
And when all the politicians have to do to resolve the economic problems, is to set up federal treasury banks with local post offices as the branch offices, in competition to the private banks
then suddenly that is an option that will be seriously considered.
As far as all the money spent on stimulous packages, it is mostly badly targeted.
Even very fast trains is outdated technology.
Floating Airships are the next step in mass transport. To put $10 Billion dollars into setting up floating airship factories would see that industry really take off - if you will excuse the fun.
The hugely expensive package will provide some stimulous but we should not think of it as spending
our children's taxes now, in other words money that we don't have. We should think of it as money provided by the private banks which we will spend and when alternative banking services are set up, that money can just become extra debts that the banks will carry by themselves.
Barack should be alright- as long as he takes my advice ha ha
see link to floating Airships here
http://www.jimbernard.org/gpage25.html
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Posted by: gimmie shelter on Feb 23, 2009 11:22 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Most things will become to expensive to ship in the near future when the production of oil falls precipitously as a result of peak oil. Communities need to work again for themselves first and secondly whatever surpluses which accumulate may need to be sold or bartered with nearby towns or cities for goods they need.
Things are not going to get better and what is happening now is just a precursor to our future. There will be ups and downs but overall we and the rest of the world will have a very different way of life than our parents and a totally different lifestyle from the next generation of children. Actually for some in the world things will not change to much, namely those close to the soil already working on small farms, except of course that animals will be needed again instead of fossil fueled machines and fertilizers, this would again become more of the natural type. So if you live around D.C. you should have a never ending supply.
Empty strip malls are going to become the norm not the exception.
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Posted by: Bizatch! on Feb 23, 2009 11:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Let's squeeze the juice out
of all these suckers with power
and pour it back out
so as to water the flowers-- this world is ours
that's why the demons are leery;
it's our inheritance-- this is my Robin Hood Theory"
(Gangstarr-- 'Robin Hood Theory')
So when are we going to march on corporate headquarters?
Who's going to risk their necks and take back the ill-gotten swag from the kleptocrats?
In the land of stubborn individuals, it's been all but forgotten that power comes in large numbers... so don't succumb to personal failure... get united and start bashing these bastards! Let sleeping dogs die!
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Posted by: SlyGuy on Feb 23, 2009 12:36 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Viva la Alternet.
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Posted by: poetrylark on Feb 23, 2009 1:02 PM
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Malls are generally excellent places to meet, dine and shop.
Better to build affordable home units around the malls and you then have a good situation for both the residents (who won't need cars - since they are living close to most facilities that they need )and the mall traders who get on site customers.
There could be one of this type development in every small town.
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» RE: demolish malls ?
Posted by: peacefullaim1
» RE: demolish malls ?
Posted by: buzzsaw
» RE: demolish malls ?
Posted by: peacefullaim1
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Posted by: willymack on Feb 23, 2009 2:33 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: macdon1 on Feb 23, 2009 2:43 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: koonaone on Feb 23, 2009 6:13 PM
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Second: This crisis I believe will ultimately resolve into a life style, human centered vs ecosystem centered dilemna. City dwellers have almost No possibility of achieving long term ecosystematic sustainability, Small town folk Do. And besides they have a more current and realistic knowledgebase of just what an ecosystem is.
Third: And yes you are right. We are better armed and trained.
Seriously though, I think small scale social efficiencies in avoiding wasted time and effort to achieve neccessary ends, will prevail over the advantages of the massive scales required of the urbanites.
I would say investment right now in small town, rural property in decent growing climates is adaptive behavior in this long term economic climate
yours
douglas
The internet works just fine, and that's what the Governments, and entertainment peddlers, are trying to fix.
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Posted by: gimmie shelter on Feb 23, 2009 7:30 PM
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Lets suppose you are a small farming town not far from a city and are doing pretty well feeding your residents after reorganizing yourselves and diversifying the foods you produce and the skill sets you need.
At the same time supplies in the neighboring cities or communities are getting extremely low and parts of the population begin to starve, what do you think the chances are that a panicked population en mass may make their way to your community. Over time there may be a whole regional relocation in search of food or a place to grow and produce it.
I know I have left out a lot of events in this scenario but it is not meant to be exhaustive in details. Can you see the sad set of events that could possibly overwhelm the smaller communities in their exodus for survival, armed or not.
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Posted by: hurricane hugo on Feb 23, 2009 11:48 PM
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#@!
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Posted by: Ka-bird on Feb 23, 2009 12:52 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wonder how many middle American Republicans will ever grasp this.
Let's see how much Jesus, flag-waving, gay-bashing and "family values" offer comfort now.
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» Well put
Posted by: kegbot1
» The Great Depression
Posted by: RickW
» RE: BaBird
Posted by: drohlman
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Posted by: Lily H. on Feb 23, 2009 1:33 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
tombs sprouting like mushrooms, and Wikipedia pages,
"Defunct Chain and Dept. Stores". A real eye-opener.
Just a thought, wonder if wife-killer Scott Peterson
would have lost his fertilizer salesman job in Modesto
if he hadn't killed Laci?
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» Re: Check Out deadmalls.com...
Posted by: Seeker
» RE: e: Check Out deadmalls.com...
Posted by: Lily H.
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Posted by: Zeugitai on Feb 23, 2009 1:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: 303 million people
Posted by: disc golf
» RE: 303 million people
Posted by: peacefullaim1
» Increased population increases economic activity
Posted by: billwald
» RE: Increased population increases economic activity
Posted by: peacefullaim1
» RE: New York in the seventies
Posted by: Pissed Off Woman
» Just Go West
Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
» RE: Just Go West
Posted by: RickW
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Posted by: poetrylark on Feb 23, 2009 2:00 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes we are heading into the worst economic disaster the world has ever seen. Much worse than the 1930's
depression.
But it could be a fairly short lived recession/depression if Barack and other leaders made the right moves.
Be aware that it is all happening because of banking decisions. The banks have got themselves into trouble by foolish policies and irresponsible investments . Now they are restricting credit so businesses will soon have trouble surviving due to not having short term finance which they often rely on.
There is an alternative to this madness.
It simply needs the setting up of federal treasury banks using local post offices as their branch offices.
Once that happens then the government can ignore the private banks and give large loans to everyone at low interest rates. A lot of this money they would get back from direct and indirect taxes, but if every week a livable wage was placed into everryone's bank account by electronic means, then people would relax and return to spending as they used to do and economies would prosper again.
We were heading into the age of leisure anyway before this economic meltdown, but millions of people losing their jobs permanently - will only bring on a leisure (mainly jobless) society more quickly.
If you have a regular income placed in your bank account each week, then you don't much care about not having a job. And the federal treasury can do that for everyone indefinitly.
So instead of fear and foreboding about the future, lets just tell the politicians to set up
new government sponsored banks lending at low interest. People could borrow enough money to pay off their mortgages and credit card debts to the private banks and then head off to the golf course or the beach so to speak.
Using the federal treasury to finance everything, was what Abe lincoln did during the American civil war.
It is the way forward, but we need to spread the news
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Posted by: -matti on Feb 23, 2009 2:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Over a century and a half ago, the man called by his enemies "Chief Seattle" is said to have said thus:
Yonder sky that has wept tears of compassion upon my people for centuries untold, and which to us appears changeless and eternal, may change. Today is fair. Tomorrow it may be overcast with clouds. My words are like the stars that never change. Whatever Seattle says, the great chief at Washington can rely upon with as much certainty as he can upon the return of the sun or the seasons. The white chief says that Big Chief at Washington sends us greetings of friendship and goodwill. This is kind of him for we know he has little need of our friendship in return. His people are many. They are like the grass that covers vast prairies. My people are few. They resemble the scattering trees of a storm-swept plain. The great, and I presume -- good, White Chief sends us word that he wishes to buy our land but is willing to allow us enough to live comfortably. This indeed appears just, even generous, for the Red Man no longer has rights that he need respect, and the offer may be wise, also, as we are no longer in need of an extensive country.
There was a time when our people covered the land as the waves of a wind-ruffled sea cover its shell-paved floor, but that time long since passed away with the greatness of tribes that are now but a mournful memory. I will not dwell on, nor mourn over, our untimely decay, nor reproach my paleface brothers with hastening it, as we too may have been somewhat to blame.
Youth is impulsive. When our young men grow angry at some real or imaginary wrong, and disfigure their faces with black paint, it denotes that their hearts are black, and that they are often cruel and relentless, and our old men and old women are unable to restrain them. Thus it has ever been. Thus it was when the white man began to push our forefathers ever westward. But let us hope that the hostilities between us may never return. We would have everything to lose and nothing to gain. Revenge by young men is considered gain, even at the cost of their own lives, but old men who stay at home in times of war, and mothers who have sons to lose, know better.
Our good father in Washington--for I presume he is now our father as well as yours, since King George has moved his boundaries further north--our great and good father, I say, sends us word that if we do as he desires he will protect us. His brave warriors will be to us a bristling wall of strength, and his wonderful ships of war will fill our harbors, so that our ancient enemies far to the northward -- the Haidas and Tsimshians -- will cease to frighten our women, children, and old men. Then in reality he will be our father and we his children. But can that ever be? Your God is not our God! Your God loves your people and hates mine! He folds his strong protecting arms lovingly about the paleface and leads him by the hand as a father leads an infant son. But, He has forsaken His Red children, if they really are His. Our God, the Great Spirit, seems also to have forsaken us. Your God makes your people wax stronger every day. Soon they will fill all the land. Our people are ebbing away like a rapidly receding tide that will never return. The white man's God cannot love our people or He would protect them. They seem to be orphans who can look nowhere for help. How then can we be brothers? How can your God become our God and renew our prosperity and awaken in us dreams of returning greatness? If we have a common Heavenly Father He must be partial, for He came to His paleface children. We never saw Him. He gave you laws but had no word for His red children whose teeming multitudes once filled this vast continent as stars fill the firmament. No; we are two distinct races with separate origins and separate destinies. There is little in common between us.
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» RE: Why such Hardship in a land of Plenty? (continued)
Posted by: -matti
» RE: Why such Hardship in a land of Plenty? (concluded)
Posted by: -matti
» There is hope...
Posted by: -matti
» gimmie shelter
Posted by: gimmie shelter
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Posted by: Vic Fedorov on Feb 23, 2009 4:28 AM
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Their is wisdom and empowerment when people put their heads together. What the people want and think and need for their time and life can be considered.
You point out local officials who have usurped this vital dialogue violate the tenth's reservation of powers to the state or the people: our founders intended for local free assemblies to be municipal government.
The solution is that simple. But this is practically a civil rights movement for the civil right of free assemblies in that state constitutions often incorporated towns with local officials, in violation of the 14th amendment's edict against states making or enforcing laws that abridge priviledges and immunities of the constitution, such as not being ruled locally by a few, when all are equal and should reason together.
Community rooms and parks are not always easy to line up thus abridging free assembly
Vic Fedorov, NJ
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» Organize food cooperatives
Posted by: Beck
» RE: Organize food cooperatives
Posted by: gandolfshep
» RE: Organize food cooperatives
Posted by: FAITHCARR
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Feb 23, 2009 4:34 AM
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The difference is rail, both above and below ground, and because gas is relatively expensive in Japan, unlike in the U.S.
Some towns, just like after the oil boom around Odessa Texas, are doomed to become ghost towns if folks can't get from there to decent jobs without unreasonable cost or inconvenience.
No matter how quaint the wee downtown area...
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» About gas prices, they're artificially "low" in this country.
Posted by: maxpayne
» "America is still living in an oil bubble."
Posted by: ABetterFuture
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Posted by: xvictor on Feb 23, 2009 5:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Many of them are now closed up and abandoned. It'd be great to just tear 'em all down and let nature take over once again. Poetic justice, actually.
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» Dead Malls are cool but...
Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
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Posted by: fred_53_99 on Feb 23, 2009 5:29 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This has to happen;America must let go of the old myth of what we are and what we have been.Cuba has a better health care system, Canda manages it's ecomony better, France as free college education. We got "American Idol".If we as a people do not choose to grow up ,we will not leave this ression. But then Shara Palin can always remind us of how stupid we really are,perhaps too stupid to exist as a country.
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» RE: Whats really important!
Posted by: ADCS
» RE: Whats really important!
Posted by: Axiom69
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Posted by: Growthbuster on Feb 23, 2009 6:03 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Productivity improvements without an accompanying cutback in work hours have left us with a lot of folks whose jobs involve providing luxuries, not meeting needs. Now the economy is correcting for that. We can't afford the luxuries, so there are not enough jobs to go around - not if we insist they pay enough to maintain our luxurious and consumptive lifestyle.
Also, packing people into cities and moving them farther away from the source of what they need (land = food), has put most of us in the precarious position of only being able to sit and wait and hope for a job. There was a day when you just rolled up your sleeves and grew or hunted some food when times got tough.
Finally, America's cities are a mess largely because they are growth addicts. They allowed infrastructure backlogs to grow so they could pretend growth was creating community prosperity. All along the externalized costs of growth were strangling them. Now the growth junkies are crashing, and they believe they just need to get another fix and everything will be fine. In truth they need to get into a recovery program.
Dave Gardner
Producer/Director
Hooked on Growth: Our Misguided Quest for Prosperity
www.growthbusters.com
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» I'm would half dispute this
Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
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Posted by: undead on Feb 23, 2009 6:14 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now you are reaping the harvest of those choices. Too bad the few who voted for Mr. Nader have to live with your stupidity.
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» How did your one of 736,804 votes change anything? The rest of can't stay duped like this.
Posted by: Beck
» My vote for Nader kept MO red but could care less if it was red or blue.
Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield
» RE: My vote for Nader kept MO red but could care less if it was red or blue.
Posted by: peacefullaim1
» RE: It's not about winning, it's about doing the right thing
Posted by: DCostello2
» OK, tell us what Nader would have done different?
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» RE: It's not about winning, it's about doing the right thing
Posted by: peacefullaim1
» Yes, the third party fan's refusal to kiss Beck's behind is the reason they lose elections.
Posted by: GuitarBill
» RE: Who did you vote for?
Posted by: helenahanbasquet
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Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield on Feb 23, 2009 6:45 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Like Eastren Carolina
Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
» RE: Whenever I visit my folks once in a while back in small town MO from St Louis,
Posted by: helenahanbasquet
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Posted by: Purple Girl on Feb 23, 2009 7:14 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If I can Get a Job, My husband be assured of steady work and keep my Home, taxes wouldn't be a problem. In fact if I had to pay a bit more to assure the three kids across the street won't have to be carried on welfare now or for the rest of their lives due to unemployment or shitty Education- It would be my Pleasure. god knows I'm hoping theres a work force to help support me when I can no longer do it for myself.Tax Cuts and Deficit Reduction is an oxyMORONIC ideology.
Generating Jobs will increase the Tax base,through personal income and property taxes. That is the ONLY way to reduce the deficit.How Dare McCain cry about theft from the next generation when he has aided and abetted the Orgnaized Crime Syndicate who's already committed the Greatest heist. Probabaly because Mac's already got one foot in the 'Bucket' anyway.'Family man'? A guy who leaves his ailing wife, shoves his kids into the shadows on the campaign trail and needs a Baby factory VP to round out his 'Family man' credentials- Please! Mac wouldn't recognize Family Values or Parental Responsbilty if they came up and Kicked him in the balls while bitch slappping the hell out of him- What an Asshole!
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» The tax cut madness is still out there but you are correct that it is waning.
Posted by: maxpayne
» I'm starting to wonder
Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
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Posted by: ron heringhauser on Feb 23, 2009 7:27 AM
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Posted by: roli on Feb 23, 2009 7:30 AM
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Posted by: thelorax on Feb 23, 2009 7:57 AM
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Economic growth is simply an increase in the production and consumption of goods and services. Economic growth has provided many benefits over time, but now it is causing more problems - dire problems - than it solves. Slowly but surely, economic growth has become a primary threat to the environment, national security, international stability, and future generations. Yet it remains the highest priority in the domestic policy arena of the United States and most other nations. Citizens, especially students, are continually told that there is no limit to growth, in defiance of ecological principles and basic physics. To refute the misleading rhetoric that there is no conflict between economic growth and environmental protection - as well as economic sustainability - CASSE provides information on the downsides of growth with an emphasis on ecological concepts.
The Steady State Economy
A prosperous and dynamic economy does not have to be a growing economy. A steady state economy features stabilized population and consumption. Such stability means that the amounts of resource throughput and waste disposal remain roughly constant. The key features of a steady state economy are: (1) sustainable scale, in which economic activities fit within the capacity provided by ecosystems; (2) fair distribution of wealth; and (3) efficient allocation of resources.
http://www.steadystate.org/CASSEBasics.html
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» RE: thelorax...
Posted by: peacefullaim1
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Posted by: Urstrly on Feb 23, 2009 8:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dalton is characterized by a wide divide between haves and have-nots. There's been a general resistance to unions, and much of the labor is performed by immigrants from Mexico. People may grouse about the "immigrant burden," but they're mightily resistant to raising wages and taxes, too.
I've been hearing a lot about how we can't protect our industries without triggering reciprocal trade barriers, but we seem to have the worst of both worlds: manufacturers have been allowed do as they wish when business is good, but no one is safe when business is bad. No new homes equals no need for carpets. Who will protect the newly poor from sub-prime mortgages and loss of health insurance (if they ever had it)? I'm not sure it's on Dalton's radar.
It would be nice if the schools there benefitted from the stimulus. At least students would be prepared when the economy picks up, and better educated students wouldn't be so dependent for employment on the mills and all the fast-food restaurants and discount stores that they attract.
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» RE: Dalton, GA
Posted by: helenahanbasquet
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Posted by: eyeonit on Feb 23, 2009 8:39 AM
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President Obama's top-down embrace the mega-banking system will not help a darn thing.
The US is in a new paradigm. Only a rejuvenation of a bottom up labor driven, new manufacturing paradigm must be brought into play. It is time to kick the banker thieves off the bus, and realize that consumerism is history.
http://eye-on-washington.blogspot.com
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Posted by: djnoll on Feb 23, 2009 9:21 AM
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A sustainable community makes its economic decisions with two additional factors in the equation: social justice (equity, poverty alleviation) and environmental protection (conservation of natural resources, nature). When decisions are made that insure that both of these elements are protected, how you approach unemployment, family health, food security, and community growth become assured. It requires a change in how we think, but also how we live with each other.
When communities like those in the articles can learn to come together as neighbors, instead of competitors for jobs, they can begin to see how to get out of this mess. It will require civic and town leaders to set aside political agendas and start thinking outside the box, looking to the past for some ideas and implementing new technologies to get things done. It means small manufacturing companies that are locally owned supported by small businesses locally owned and patronized by local citizens. It means driving out the Wal-Marts and the Home Depots, and re-establishing the local grocery stores and hardware stores.
I recently thought about how many jobs could be created in my rural town with just one small manufacturing firm, one medium size seasonal charity, and a dozen family owned businesses. The total number: 269 jobs for a town of 1600 people, and this is not counting a local community farm with 20 employees. And right now, we have only three businesses employing about 50 people, the rest commute to Las Vegas, 30 miles away to work.
It can be done if the towns want to do it. It can be done if the people are willing to do the work. We can save our small towns, and do it sustainably, if we truly change how we think in a modern world.
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» RE: Hindsight is 20/20
Posted by: Growthbuster
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Posted by: zauche on Feb 23, 2009 10:35 AM
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Posted by: poetrylark on Feb 23, 2009 11:10 AM
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Is he progressive or conservative ?
In broad terms he seems mildly progressive but mind boggling economic circumstances can make anyone take dramatic new initiatives which would not be considered in normal times.
For Instance FDR confiscated Gold in the 1930's.
Under normal circumstances there is no way that he would have done that.
I suspect that the Banks have planned this meltdown
and intend taking everyone down with them as the various economies implode. Once everyone is financially ruined, Only the Banks will be able to
return to their previous dominant position, because
they ultimately create any money that is acceptable.
But their plans are nineteenth century plans.
Crude manipulation of whole populations for monetary gain.
They do not appreciate that a whole new class of well educated outspoken people with excellent communications will not tolerate being deliberately
financially ruined.
Politics is a cake walk in prosperous times, but in times of economic disaster it can be a night mare for politicians.
A million angry demonstrators on the streets demanding that their elected representatives DO SOMETHING NOW is hard to ignore.
And when all the politicians have to do to resolve the economic problems, is to set up federal treasury banks with local post offices as the branch offices, in competition to the private banks
then suddenly that is an option that will be seriously considered.
As far as all the money spent on stimulous packages, it is mostly badly targeted.
Even very fast trains is outdated technology.
Floating Airships are the next step in mass transport. To put $10 Billion dollars into setting up floating airship factories would see that industry really take off - if you will excuse the fun.
The hugely expensive package will provide some stimulous but we should not think of it as spending
our children's taxes now, in other words money that we don't have. We should think of it as money provided by the private banks which we will spend and when alternative banking services are set up, that money can just become extra debts that the banks will carry by themselves.
Barack should be alright- as long as he takes my advice ha ha
see link to floating Airships here
http://www.jimbernard.org/gpage25.html
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Posted by: gimmie shelter on Feb 23, 2009 11:22 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Most things will become to expensive to ship in the near future when the production of oil falls precipitously as a result of peak oil. Communities need to work again for themselves first and secondly whatever surpluses which accumulate may need to be sold or bartered with nearby towns or cities for goods they need.
Things are not going to get better and what is happening now is just a precursor to our future. There will be ups and downs but overall we and the rest of the world will have a very different way of life than our parents and a totally different lifestyle from the next generation of children. Actually for some in the world things will not change to much, namely those close to the soil already working on small farms, except of course that animals will be needed again instead of fossil fueled machines and fertilizers, this would again become more of the natural type. So if you live around D.C. you should have a never ending supply.
Empty strip malls are going to become the norm not the exception.
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Posted by: Bizatch! on Feb 23, 2009 11:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Let's squeeze the juice out
of all these suckers with power
and pour it back out
so as to water the flowers-- this world is ours
that's why the demons are leery;
it's our inheritance-- this is my Robin Hood Theory"
(Gangstarr-- 'Robin Hood Theory')
So when are we going to march on corporate headquarters?
Who's going to risk their necks and take back the ill-gotten swag from the kleptocrats?
In the land of stubborn individuals, it's been all but forgotten that power comes in large numbers... so don't succumb to personal failure... get united and start bashing these bastards! Let sleeping dogs die!
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Posted by: SlyGuy on Feb 23, 2009 12:36 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Viva la Alternet.
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Posted by: poetrylark on Feb 23, 2009 1:02 PM
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Malls are generally excellent places to meet, dine and shop.
Better to build affordable home units around the malls and you then have a good situation for both the residents (who won't need cars - since they are living close to most facilities that they need )and the mall traders who get on site customers.
There could be one of this type development in every small town.
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» RE: demolish malls ?
Posted by: peacefullaim1
» RE: demolish malls ?
Posted by: buzzsaw
» RE: demolish malls ?
Posted by: peacefullaim1
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Posted by: willymack on Feb 23, 2009 2:33 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: macdon1 on Feb 23, 2009 2:43 PM
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Posted by: koonaone on Feb 23, 2009 6:13 PM
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Second: This crisis I believe will ultimately resolve into a life style, human centered vs ecosystem centered dilemna. City dwellers have almost No possibility of achieving long term ecosystematic sustainability, Small town folk Do. And besides they have a more current and realistic knowledgebase of just what an ecosystem is.
Third: And yes you are right. We are better armed and trained.
Seriously though, I think small scale social efficiencies in avoiding wasted time and effort to achieve neccessary ends, will prevail over the advantages of the massive scales required of the urbanites.
I would say investment right now in small town, rural property in decent growing climates is adaptive behavior in this long term economic climate
yours
douglas
The internet works just fine, and that's what the Governments, and entertainment peddlers, are trying to fix.
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Posted by: gimmie shelter on Feb 23, 2009 7:30 PM
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Lets suppose you are a small farming town not far from a city and are doing pretty well feeding your residents after reorganizing yourselves and diversifying the foods you produce and the skill sets you need.
At the same time supplies in the neighboring cities or communities are getting extremely low and parts of the population begin to starve, what do you think the chances are that a panicked population en mass may make their way to your community. Over time there may be a whole regional relocation in search of food or a place to grow and produce it.
I know I have left out a lot of events in this scenario but it is not meant to be exhaustive in details. Can you see the sad set of events that could possibly overwhelm the smaller communities in their exodus for survival, armed or not.
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Posted by: hurricane hugo on Feb 23, 2009 11:48 PM
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#@!
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