COMMENTS: 70
Bonobo Sex and 'Ladyboners': Is Women's Desire Really that Confusing?
Sign up to stay up to date on the latest headlines via email.
The top story of the week has been about the ladyboner.
"What Do Women Want?," an article about new research into female arousal, published in the NYT magazine, has been the most read story for five straight days, lit up the blogosphere and sparked a lightning storm of comments at the NYT and in blogs. Many sites have had to close their comments early, unable to keep up. The deepening financial crisis has been pushed aside.
The very long story, long blog posts, and longer list of letters are all deeply complex, confusing, contradictory, fraught, fascinating and overwhelming. Kind of like the overarching metaphor in the piece, first articulated by Meredith Chivers, a 36-year-old psychology professor at Queens University, and one of the scientists whose work is profiled: "I feel like a pioneer at the edge of a giant forest."
I'm thrilled people are trying to understand the ladyboner (blogger slang for female arousal that you won't find in the Times piece); amazed by the dedication of the scientists and the intelligent and nuanced approach of the writer; and delighted that the attempt to shed some light on what makes women's privates work has moved past the suggestion that we get out our lipstick mirrors and take a look "down there." Who wouldn't be?
Women: Nature's Rubik's Cube?
The body of information (sorry) about men's arousal is disproportionately swollen (sorry, again) because most scientists have been male, and most of the cultural focus has been on how to arouse men. And only recently, with a sudden "critical mass" of female scientists, and articles like this, has there been a serious attempt to address the "problem" Freud posed over a century ago: "The great question that has never been answered and which I have not yet been able to answer, despite my 30 years of research into the feminine soul, is, What does a woman want?"
Bonobo Sex, Yes or No?
There are some fascinating findings but, as I'll get back to in a minute, they all contain some hand wringing. First, some findings about flexosexuality (my term) or heteroflexibility (Slate's term). Meredith Chivers hooked up a plethysmograph (an apparatus that fits over the penis or in the vagina and measures blood flow), and gave subjects a keypad to indicate arousal, then showed men and women, both straight and gay, short clips of bonobo monkeys having sex, of human heterosexual sex, male and female homosexual sex, a man masturbating, a woman masturbating, a chiseled man walking naked on a beach and a well-toned woman doing calisthenics in the nude.
The men responded the same way genitally and through the keypad. The heterosexual men were aroused by heterosexual or lesbian sex, by the masturbating and exercising women, and were unmoved by the other clips. The gay males were aroused in "the opposite categorical pattern."
But "all was different with the women. No matter what their self-proclaimed sexual orientation, they showed, on the whole, strong and swift genital arousal when the screen offered men with men, women with women and women with men ... with the women, especially the straight women, mind and genitals seemed scarcely to belong to the same person. The readings from the plethysmograph and the keypad weren't in much accord. During shots of lesbian coupling, heterosexual women reported less excitement than their vaginas indicated; watching gay men, they reported a great deal less; and viewing heterosexual intercourse, they reported much more. Among the lesbian volunteers, the two readings converged when women appeared on the screen. But when the films featured only men, the lesbians reported less engagement than the plethysmograph recorded. Whether straight or gay, the women claimed almost no arousal whatsoever while staring at the bonobos."
Interesting, but oh so confusing and worrying!
Stay up to date with the latest AlterNet headlines via email
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Kilantra on Feb 3, 2009 5:54 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In these studies there was nothing to determine who straight men were aroused by when watching heterosexual porn. Just because they were watching heterosexual porn doesn't mean that it was soley the female's participation or organs that caused the straight men arousal. Believe it or not, there are straight men who only see themselves as straight and are aroused by the idea of being with another straight man, and repulsed by the idea of sex with a gay man.
These researches also underestimate the ability of some men to control their sexual response. It's not simply Pavlovian for many men and women.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Straight Males
Posted by: maddy
» Good point, remember Alexander the Great??? And Hitlers....
Posted by: Prophit
» Its the "supermale" Syndrome.........
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Its the "supermale" Syndrome.........
Posted by: Cybershaman
» Aww, crap, you idiotic moonbat!
Posted by: Scientz
» Wrong. Most hetero males really are quite hetero.
Posted by: moyshekapoyre
» RE: Straight Males
Posted by: Dr. P. Mooney
» RE: Straight Males
Posted by: Livemike
Comments are closed-
Posted by: takebayashi on Feb 3, 2009 10:20 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: What really gets women hot
Posted by: Mewabe
» RE: What really gets women hot
Posted by: takebayashi
» A wake up call..."we are late for school."
Posted by: larazzafilms
» You have that right...... LOL
Posted by: Prophit
» It's not sad . . .
Posted by: Scientz
» RE: What really gets women hot
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: What really gets women hot
Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: What really gets women hot
Posted by: littlepitcher
» RE: What really gets women hot
Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: What really gets women hot
Posted by: takebayashi
» This study did not take into account the psychological variables...
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: "not comprehensive"
Posted by: oregoncharles
Comments are closed-
Posted by: pelican beak on Feb 4, 2009 12:48 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Pheromones???
Posted by: maddy
» RE: Pheromones???
Posted by: Gisele
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rickiey on Feb 4, 2009 4:45 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The cultural focus has been on how to arouse men? Seriously?
Perhaps in the advertising/scientific community, that is the case. But that is relatively minor research, and is definitely minor spending, compared to the overall research being done.
Almost all of the disposable income by single heterosexual men between the ages 18-25, is spent directly on researching what arouses women.....
Now admittedly, there haven't been the great successes in this research, partially because the subject is so difficult, and partially because the best researchers usually quit the field and stick with one test subject..
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» A funny anecdote in response
Posted by: maddy
» RE: A funny anecdote in response
Posted by: Afban
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Mewabe on Feb 4, 2009 11:11 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That even some "feminists" want a man to dominate or take charge, or initiate, is not necessarily physiological but could be due to centuries of the patriarchal subjugation of women.
Even in the animal kingdom, some species produce aggressive and dominant females.
This research seems to be based on a reluctance to upset mainstream perceptions.
Might as well compile a bunch of cliches and call it a day, this is ridiculously superficial.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Unscientific
Posted by: PirateJesus
» RE: Unscientific
Posted by: RR#1
» RE: Bonobos,
Posted by: oregoncharles
» Thank you!
Posted by: SalB
Comments are closed-
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Feb 6, 2009 3:26 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: I really don't think so.
Posted by: oregoncharles
Comments are closed-
Posted by: oregoncharles on Feb 6, 2009 4:46 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But "worrying" is this writer's own gloss. The scientists (all women - did she mention that?) may be worried by apparently contradictory results, but not in the broader sense implied here. Evidently, the system works well enough that there are too damn many of us. SOMEBODY's getting it on.
Neither article mentions a fundamental reason for the confusion: human sexuality is a very new thing, and the change is almost entirely in women. Human evolution essentially transferred male-pattern, continuous sexuality to women. The arrangement is shared only with bonobos, our nearest cousins. Evidently, it works a little differently in its new setting; the biggest difference appears to be women's remarkable polymorphism, and the disjunct between physical and mental arousal. Note that both are partly artifacts of the research setup. In real social situations, the mind is mostly in control, so its primacy buries the potential distinction. And this research doesn't address at all what women want IN MEN - always men's chief concern, and highly cultural.
One reason the researchers are confused may be that women's sexuality is so new that it's still evolving, hence quite unstable and variable. The evolutionist Steven Jay Gould proposed this idea years ago; he greatly underestimated cultural impacts in an antisexual and antifemale culture, but his point remains valid.
In other words, women themselves are still finding out what they want. Which I guess is the human condition.
Read the original article; it's very illuminating.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: P.S.: the plethysmograph...
Posted by: oregoncharles
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Gravitas on Feb 6, 2009 6:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: liminating Other Categories
Posted by: kimbari
» RE: liminating Other Categories
Posted by: Livemike
Comments are closed-
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN on Feb 6, 2009 8:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"coprophile"
You can look it up.
It fits them perfectly.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: While looking through the link to cheney, er, hitler~~
Posted by: motamanx6
» RE: While looking through the link to cheney, er, hitler~~
Posted by: Gisele
Comments are closed-
Posted by: cindyn on Feb 6, 2009 9:32 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: marizara on Feb 6, 2009 9:44 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Sexual Dichotomy
Posted by: Gisele
» RE: Sexual Dichotomy
Posted by: pelican beak
Comments are closed-
Posted by: oregoncharles on Feb 6, 2009 10:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
An erection is pretty hard to overlook. It's, well, prominent, and even uncomfortable if your pants are snug. Women's arousal is more subtle. There has to be a physical sensation involved, but that can be ignored, especially if it conflicts with conscious inclinations - or our cultural prejudices against female sexuality.
And of course, men have little fear of admitting they're turned on. In any case, they have little choice.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Not to be too graphic here...
Posted by: maddy
» RE: Not to be too graphic here...
Posted by: oregoncharles
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ThinkLife on Feb 6, 2009 11:54 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All the while, we're barraged by media images of hunky men swilling beer and skimpily clad women touting the benefits of Viagra and other eros-inducing pills--or selling things that have nothing to do with sex whatsoever! While politicians and corporate heads and everyone else seek out hookers, call girls and online porn sites!
While "page three lovelies" pop their boobies at you in the British press. (I have to admit, I looked up a picture of Samara Ginsberg, the author of a recent piece on AlterNet, "Women Have Boobs--Get Over It." Well, I can't get over it. I love boobs! And all the rest of women's bodies, too!)
Hell, enough science and analysis. The Puritans bore me. So do scientists--unless they look like Gisele Bundchen. (I'm guessing 95% of male readers are with me on this--not necessarily on my choice of hottie, though.)
So who wants to have sex? With me! Yes, right now, by email, sending pictures, a lust-drenched phone call or meeting me for a "liquid lunch"--I don't care how!
LET'S JUST DO IT!
Please be female, attractive, slim-to-average, between 18-50, petite, horny, smart, dumb or anything in-between. (Uh, actually you had me at 'female.')
I'm 40ish, tall, handsome, smart and funny. And horny. Just repeating so everything's clear: Pretty darn horny.
And yes, I'm serious about the offer, as well as about making a point!
It's trite, I know--but true--that I like sunsets, movies, romantic dinners, cuddling...and sweaty slurpy gooey gummy SEX--before, during and after all of that...mmmmm.
Bend over Barbie, Ken's a-comin'! Tell me how ya like it!
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» You lost me at "slim-to-average"...
Posted by: kimbari
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Blue Heron on Feb 6, 2009 12:26 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: J. C. Miller on Feb 6, 2009 1:38 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We might have it a bit backwards here. Our conscious cognitions (thoughts, steam of consciousness) are symbolic representations of complex inner “mental” states that include core beliefs, attributions, archetypes, learned rules about the world and provide cognitive schema we use to interpret all events and which drive our emotive reactions, “feelings” (including e.g. fear, excitement and arousal), which in turn drive behavior. This model of cognitive theory in psychology underlies cognitive-behavioral therapy, the most validated and efficacious practice theory known.
That is, what may be useful in understanding these results is less that physiological arousal becomes represented in awareness, or cognition, but the reverse - that learned and heritable cognitive schemas drive responses to potentially arousing events. One piece of the research that does not seem consistent is the lack of brain inhibitory activity, as measured, in males not becoming aroused with certain stimuli, although this seems far from definitive. - In straights, brain regions associated with inhibition were not triggered by images of men; in gays, such regions weren't activated by pictures of women. Inhibition, in Bailey's experiment, didn't appear to be an explanation for men's narrowly focused desires." – Assumption: we know enough about brain inhibitory function and its localization to accurately and reliably measure it.
More importantly, the fundamental difference in physiological arousal between males and females is that males (especially ancestral males prior to the advent of clothing) overtly signal their arousal, females do not. No big deal? Think about the consequences of overt arousal (erections) in ancestral males in various social contexts and the social signals to other males and social groups: “Yeaaaaaaah, I’m about to impregnate your reproductive mate”, or “Your virginal female offspring has me ready to inseminate something right now!”, or in a social group, “Those two dogs got me interested in a threesome”, or in a group of males, “I’m about to establish something about status here and it’s not me going to lose status.” The Adam and Eve and fig leaf myth and archetypes may be informative here.
The above types of male signals of arousal in many or most of the selective contexts shaping survival, reproductive success, and our heritable psychology would likely be interpreted as deviance or threat to social order and mating system rules, for the excited (and threatening) male, and likely lead to marginalization, rejection, isolation, aggression, injury, or death. That is, unlike in females, because arousal is overt in males, it elicits social, survival, and reproductive costs, and is highly subject to selective pressures. It’s not so much different now: there are no apparent costs for physiological arousal in females, but imagine the social, legal, employment and other costs for males who had poor differential control of erections depending on social normative context (like when strolling around the pool deck).
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: J. C. Miller on Feb 6, 2009 1:37 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course this all leaves out behavior, as opposed to physical arousal. In that area it is women who have experienced greater selective pressure on sexuality, because for them fulfilling sexual desire (especially in the particular way a male partner driven by his biology would want to) ancestrally risked death: in dangerous ancestral environments, without establishment of physical and social supports and safety, pregnancy, birthing, and the vulnerability and demands of the mother-infant dyad put her at increased risk of mortality. Possibly why, for the female psyche, sexuality is so tied up with vulnerability, trust, safety, and sense of control.
Ultimately, if cultural introjects could be factored out, (and part of thinking about this might include more discussion of early childhood sexuality and sensuality), it may be that men and women are not so different after all – all needing safety and social acceptance, and all driven to integration, wholeness, or “love”, physically, otherwise, and likely in less differentiated ways than we have been domesticated to believe.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: costs of arousal (part 2)
Posted by: Stogie
» ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz...
Posted by: gar1948
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Alenna on Feb 6, 2009 2:03 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm trying to be careful not to generalize too much - I'm sure there are many women who get quickly turned on by pornography, and men who prefer the slow and romantic.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: zparadock on Feb 6, 2009 2:55 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't know why anyone who doesn't even start out knowing the most basic facts of female anatomy is doing this research or why anyone would bother reporting their results.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: penis does not equate to vagina
Posted by: ladyoracle
» RE: penis does not equate to vagina
Posted by: kimbari
» RE: penis does not equate to vagina
Posted by: zparadock
Comments are closed-
Posted by: pvalemont@bigpond.com on Feb 6, 2009 4:35 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ladyoracle on Feb 6, 2009 5:12 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: superfeduphoosier on Feb 6, 2009 7:39 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Heck, my wife and I just dress up attractively and then come together and hug, hold hands, and kiss each other. If one of us asks the other to wear tights, the other one has to do so also so sometimes we both go out with tights under our shorts and surprisingly get admired in public. Sometimes, we even go out and play, and tickle each other like kids, and even have fun in the rain together. Neither of us ask a lot from each other. Sorry if I got carried away there.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: disfasia on Feb 6, 2009 7:57 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Marverick47 on Feb 6, 2009 10:26 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
love who you want to love
be happy, be kind, get a move on
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Hey folks
Posted by: lightwing1
» RE: Hey folks
Posted by: lorrainemc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: lorrainemc on Feb 10, 2009 4:32 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Kilantra on Feb 3, 2009 5:54 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In these studies there was nothing to determine who straight men were aroused by when watching heterosexual porn. Just because they were watching heterosexual porn doesn't mean that it was soley the female's participation or organs that caused the straight men arousal. Believe it or not, there are straight men who only see themselves as straight and are aroused by the idea of being with another straight man, and repulsed by the idea of sex with a gay man.
These researches also underestimate the ability of some men to control their sexual response. It's not simply Pavlovian for many men and women.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Straight Males
Posted by: maddy
» Good point, remember Alexander the Great??? And Hitlers....
Posted by: Prophit
» Its the "supermale" Syndrome.........
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Its the "supermale" Syndrome.........
Posted by: Cybershaman
» Aww, crap, you idiotic moonbat!
Posted by: Scientz
» Wrong. Most hetero males really are quite hetero.
Posted by: moyshekapoyre
» RE: Straight Males
Posted by: Dr. P. Mooney
» RE: Straight Males
Posted by: Livemike
Comments are closed-
Posted by: takebayashi on Feb 3, 2009 10:20 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: What really gets women hot
Posted by: Mewabe
» RE: What really gets women hot
Posted by: takebayashi
» A wake up call..."we are late for school."
Posted by: larazzafilms
» You have that right...... LOL
Posted by: Prophit
» It's not sad . . .
Posted by: Scientz
» RE: What really gets women hot
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: What really gets women hot
Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: What really gets women hot
Posted by: littlepitcher
» RE: What really gets women hot
Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: What really gets women hot
Posted by: takebayashi
» This study did not take into account the psychological variables...
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: "not comprehensive"
Posted by: oregoncharles
Comments are closed-
Posted by: pelican beak on Feb 4, 2009 12:48 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Pheromones???
Posted by: maddy
» RE: Pheromones???
Posted by: Gisele
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rickiey on Feb 4, 2009 4:45 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The cultural focus has been on how to arouse men? Seriously?
Perhaps in the advertising/scientific community, that is the case. But that is relatively minor research, and is definitely minor spending, compared to the overall research being done.
Almost all of the disposable income by single heterosexual men between the ages 18-25, is spent directly on researching what arouses women.....
Now admittedly, there haven't been the great successes in this research, partially because the subject is so difficult, and partially because the best researchers usually quit the field and stick with one test subject..
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» A funny anecdote in response
Posted by: maddy
» RE: A funny anecdote in response
Posted by: Afban
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Mewabe on Feb 4, 2009 11:11 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That even some "feminists" want a man to dominate or take charge, or initiate, is not necessarily physiological but could be due to centuries of the patriarchal subjugation of women.
Even in the animal kingdom, some species produce aggressive and dominant females.
This research seems to be based on a reluctance to upset mainstream perceptions.
Might as well compile a bunch of cliches and call it a day, this is ridiculously superficial.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Unscientific
Posted by: PirateJesus
» RE: Unscientific
Posted by: RR#1
» RE: Bonobos,
Posted by: oregoncharles
» Thank you!
Posted by: SalB
Comments are closed-
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Feb 6, 2009 3:26 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: I really don't think so.
Posted by: oregoncharles
Comments are closed-
Posted by: oregoncharles on Feb 6, 2009 4:46 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But "worrying" is this writer's own gloss. The scientists (all women - did she mention that?) may be worried by apparently contradictory results, but not in the broader sense implied here. Evidently, the system works well enough that there are too damn many of us. SOMEBODY's getting it on.
Neither article mentions a fundamental reason for the confusion: human sexuality is a very new thing, and the change is almost entirely in women. Human evolution essentially transferred male-pattern, continuous sexuality to women. The arrangement is shared only with bonobos, our nearest cousins. Evidently, it works a little differently in its new setting; the biggest difference appears to be women's remarkable polymorphism, and the disjunct between physical and mental arousal. Note that both are partly artifacts of the research setup. In real social situations, the mind is mostly in control, so its primacy buries the potential distinction. And this research doesn't address at all what women want IN MEN - always men's chief concern, and highly cultural.
One reason the researchers are confused may be that women's sexuality is so new that it's still evolving, hence quite unstable and variable. The evolutionist Steven Jay Gould proposed this idea years ago; he greatly underestimated cultural impacts in an antisexual and antifemale culture, but his point remains valid.
In other words, women themselves are still finding out what they want. Which I guess is the human condition.
Read the original article; it's very illuminating.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: P.S.: the plethysmograph...
Posted by: oregoncharles
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Gravitas on Feb 6, 2009 6:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: liminating Other Categories
Posted by: kimbari
» RE: liminating Other Categories
Posted by: Livemike
Comments are closed-
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN on Feb 6, 2009 8:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"coprophile"
You can look it up.
It fits them perfectly.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: While looking through the link to cheney, er, hitler~~
Posted by: motamanx6
» RE: While looking through the link to cheney, er, hitler~~
Posted by: Gisele
Comments are closed-
Posted by: cindyn on Feb 6, 2009 9:32 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: marizara on Feb 6, 2009 9:44 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Sexual Dichotomy
Posted by: Gisele
» RE: Sexual Dichotomy
Posted by: pelican beak
Comments are closed-
Posted by: oregoncharles on Feb 6, 2009 10:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
An erection is pretty hard to overlook. It's, well, prominent, and even uncomfortable if your pants are snug. Women's arousal is more subtle. There has to be a physical sensation involved, but that can be ignored, especially if it conflicts with conscious inclinations - or our cultural prejudices against female sexuality.
And of course, men have little fear of admitting they're turned on. In any case, they have little choice.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Not to be too graphic here...
Posted by: maddy
» RE: Not to be too graphic here...
Posted by: oregoncharles
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ThinkLife on Feb 6, 2009 11:54 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All the while, we're barraged by media images of hunky men swilling beer and skimpily clad women touting the benefits of Viagra and other eros-inducing pills--or selling things that have nothing to do with sex whatsoever! While politicians and corporate heads and everyone else seek out hookers, call girls and online porn sites!
While "page three lovelies" pop their boobies at you in the British press. (I have to admit, I looked up a picture of Samara Ginsberg, the author of a recent piece on AlterNet, "Women Have Boobs--Get Over It." Well, I can't get over it. I love boobs! And all the rest of women's bodies, too!)
Hell, enough science and analysis. The Puritans bore me. So do scientists--unless they look like Gisele Bundchen. (I'm guessing 95% of male readers are with me on this--not necessarily on my choice of hottie, though.)
So who wants to have sex? With me! Yes, right now, by email, sending pictures, a lust-drenched phone call or meeting me for a "liquid lunch"--I don't care how!
LET'S JUST DO IT!
Please be female, attractive, slim-to-average, between 18-50, petite, horny, smart, dumb or anything in-between. (Uh, actually you had me at 'female.')
I'm 40ish, tall, handsome, smart and funny. And horny. Just repeating so everything's clear: Pretty darn horny.
And yes, I'm serious about the offer, as well as about making a point!
It's trite, I know--but true--that I like sunsets, movies, romantic dinners, cuddling...and sweaty slurpy gooey gummy SEX--before, during and after all of that...mmmmm.
Bend over Barbie, Ken's a-comin'! Tell me how ya like it!
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» You lost me at "slim-to-average"...
Posted by: kimbari
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Blue Heron on Feb 6, 2009 12:26 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: J. C. Miller on Feb 6, 2009 1:38 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We might have it a bit backwards here. Our conscious cognitions (thoughts, steam of consciousness) are symbolic representations of complex inner “mental” states that include core beliefs, attributions, archetypes, learned rules about the world and provide cognitive schema we use to interpret all events and which drive our emotive reactions, “feelings” (including e.g. fear, excitement and arousal), which in turn drive behavior. This model of cognitive theory in psychology underlies cognitive-behavioral therapy, the most validated and efficacious practice theory known.
That is, what may be useful in understanding these results is less that physiological arousal becomes represented in awareness, or cognition, but the reverse - that learned and heritable cognitive schemas drive responses to potentially arousing events. One piece of the research that does not seem consistent is the lack of brain inhibitory activity, as measured, in males not becoming aroused with certain stimuli, although this seems far from definitive. - In straights, brain regions associated with inhibition were not triggered by images of men; in gays, such regions weren't activated by pictures of women. Inhibition, in Bailey's experiment, didn't appear to be an explanation for men's narrowly focused desires." – Assumption: we know enough about brain inhibitory function and its localization to accurately and reliably measure it.
More importantly, the fundamental difference in physiological arousal between males and females is that males (especially ancestral males prior to the advent of clothing) overtly signal their arousal, females do not. No big deal? Think about the consequences of overt arousal (erections) in ancestral males in various social contexts and the social signals to other males and social groups: “Yeaaaaaaah, I’m about to impregnate your reproductive mate”, or “Your virginal female offspring has me ready to inseminate something right now!”, or in a social group, “Those two dogs got me interested in a threesome”, or in a group of males, “I’m about to establish something about status here and it’s not me going to lose status.” The Adam and Eve and fig leaf myth and archetypes may be informative here.
The above types of male signals of arousal in many or most of the selective contexts shaping survival, reproductive success, and our heritable psychology would likely be interpreted as deviance or threat to social order and mating system rules, for the excited (and threatening) male, and likely lead to marginalization, rejection, isolation, aggression, injury, or death. That is, unlike in females, because arousal is overt in males, it elicits social, survival, and reproductive costs, and is highly subject to selective pressures. It’s not so much different now: there are no apparent costs for physiological arousal in females, but imagine the social, legal, employment and other costs for males who had poor differential control of erections depending on social normative context (like when strolling around the pool deck).
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: J. C. Miller on Feb 6, 2009 1:37 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course this all leaves out behavior, as opposed to physical arousal. In that area it is women who have experienced greater selective pressure on sexuality, because for them fulfilling sexual desire (especially in the particular way a male partner driven by his biology would want to) ancestrally risked death: in dangerous ancestral environments, without establishment of physical and social supports and safety, pregnancy, birthing, and the vulnerability and demands of the mother-infant dyad put her at increased risk of mortality. Possibly why, for the female psyche, sexuality is so tied up with vulnerability, trust, safety, and sense of control.
Ultimately, if cultural introjects could be factored out, (and part of thinking about this might include more discussion of early childhood sexuality and sensuality), it may be that men and women are not so different after all – all needing safety and social acceptance, and all driven to integration, wholeness, or “love”, physically, otherwise, and likely in less differentiated ways than we have been domesticated to believe.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: costs of arousal (part 2)
Posted by: Stogie
» ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz...
Posted by: gar1948
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Alenna on Feb 6, 2009 2:03 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm trying to be careful not to generalize too much - I'm sure there are many women who get quickly turned on by pornography, and men who prefer the slow and romantic.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: zparadock on Feb 6, 2009 2:55 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't know why anyone who doesn't even start out knowing the most basic facts of female anatomy is doing this research or why anyone would bother reporting their results.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: penis does not equate to vagina
Posted by: ladyoracle
» RE: penis does not equate to vagina
Posted by: kimbari
» RE: penis does not equate to vagina
Posted by: zparadock
Comments are closed-
Posted by: pvalemont@bigpond.com on Feb 6, 2009 4:35 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ladyoracle on Feb 6, 2009 5:12 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: superfeduphoosier on Feb 6, 2009 7:39 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Heck, my wife and I just dress up attractively and then come together and hug, hold hands, and kiss each other. If one of us asks the other to wear tights, the other one has to do so also so sometimes we both go out with tights under our shorts and surprisingly get admired in public. Sometimes, we even go out and play, and tickle each other like kids, and even have fun in the rain together. Neither of us ask a lot from each other. Sorry if I got carried away there.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: disfasia on Feb 6, 2009 7:57 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Marverick47 on Feb 6, 2009 10:26 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
love who you want to love
be happy, be kind, get a move on
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Hey folks
Posted by: lightwing1
» RE: Hey folks
Posted by: lorrainemc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: lorrainemc on Feb 10, 2009 4:32 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Vancouver's Games Will Be the Gayest Olympics Ever
Trial Begins for Activist Who Fought to Protect Federal Lands from Drilling -- Join the Protest
Starbucks' Cop-Out to Gun Nuts: Customers Served Coffee While Strapped




