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Biblical Battered Wife Syndrome: Christian Women and Domestic Violence

By Kathryn Joyce, Religion Dispatches. Posted February 2, 2009.


Escaping an abusive marriage is no easy task for many evangelical women, many of whom have pastors that say physical abuse is no reason for divorce.

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What is a good enough reason for divorce? Well, according to Rick Warren’s Saddleback church, divorce is only permitted in cases of adultery or abandonment -- as these are the only cases permitted in the Bible -- and never for abuse.

As teaching pastor Tom Holladay explains, spousal abuse should be dealt with by temporary separation and church marriage counseling designed to bring about reconciliation between the couple. But to qualify for that separation, your spouse must be in the “habit of beating you regularly,” and not be simply someone who “grabbed you once.”

“How many beatings would have to take place in order to qualify as regularly?” asks Jocelyn Andersen, a Christian domestic violence survivor and advocate, author of the 2007 book Woman Submit! Christians and Domestic Violence, an indictment of church teachings of wifely submission and male headship. As she sees it, by convincing women that leaving their relationships is not an option, these teachings have laid the ground for a domestic violence epidemic within the church.

Andersen writes from personal experience, describing an episode of being held hostage by her husband -- an associate pastor in their Kansas Baptist church -- for close to twenty hours after he’d nearly fractured her skull. Andersen was raised in the Southern Baptist Convention, where she heard an unremitting message of “submission, submission, submission.” She saw this continual focus reflected in her ex-husband’s denunciations, while he detained her, of women who wanted to “rule over men.” Though Andersen was rescued by her church’s pastor, who had his assistant pastor arrested himself, she says other churchwomen aren’t so lucky, particularly when churches tell couples to attend joint marriage counseling under lay ministry leaders with no specific training for abuse survivors, who instead offer an unswerving prescription of submission and headship, often telling women to learn to submit “better.”

Pastor Holladay takes care in the taped sessions to explain that enduring abuse is not a part of a wife’s call to submit to her husband -- a principle that Warren and Saddleback espouse. “There’s nowhere in the Bible that says it’s an attitude of submission to let someone abuse you,” he says in the audio clips. Nonetheless, Andersen finds it telling that the issue of submission always arises in church discussions of domestic violence, “subtly reminding women of their duty to maintain a submissive attitude toward their husbands.”

That this occurs even in Warren’s church, which is derided by more conservative Southern Baptists for its purported cultural liberalism. Andersen sees this as proof of the centrality of male authority throughout mainstream evangelical culture, “which can still be maintained in a controlled separation but is seriously threatened when a woman is given leeway of any kind, for whatever reason, in ceasing to submit to an abusive husband by divorcing him.”

There are more blatant examples of excusing abusive male authority among stricter proponents of complementarianism and submission theology. In June 2007, professor of Christian theology at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary Bruce Ware told a Texas church that women often bring abuse on themselves by refusing to submit. And Debi Pearl, half of a husband-and-wife fundamentalist child-training ministry as well as author of the bestselling submission manual, Created to Be His Help Meet, writes that submission is so essential to God’s plan that it must be followed even to the point of allowing abuse. “When God puts you in subjection to a man whom he knows is going to cause you to suffer,” she writes, “it is with the understanding that you are obeying God by enduring the wrongful suffering.”

While Saddleback’s teachings certainly don’t make such an explicit argument for submitting to violence, and Holladay tells abused women they must seek safety before they attempt to reconcile, there is a similar profession of helplessness before biblical mandates. In the audio clips, Holladay protests he could tell women that there was a third biblical justification for divorce, “a Bible verse that says, ‘If they abuse you in this-and-such kind of way, then you have a right to leave them.’” But ultimately, he says, there’s not, and the question of separation versus divorce comes down to a matter of dealing with the pain of fixing a marriage now or later, almost a matter of discipline.

“It’s not like you can escape the pain,” Holladay explains. “You think you are -- there’s an immediate release when you get the divorce.” But the pain abused wives escape through divorce will just be traded for pain down the line as they have to negotiate shared parenting duties with their exes, or encounter “old issues” with a new spouse -- a seeming charge that the abused spouse’s “issues” contributed to the abuse. “I’d always rather choose a short-term pain and find God’s solution for a long-term gain, than find a short-term solution that’s going to involve a long-term pain in my life,” Holladay says.

Saddleback’s position is “typical evangelical fare on the subject of domestic abuse and domestic violence,” responds Andersen. Typical because, like other well-known and extremely influential evangelical leaders, Saddleback is pushing a message of “leave while the heat is on,” but only with the intention of returning to the marriage when the violence has cooled. This is the message that Andersen tracks from Christian leaders as prominent as megachurch pastor John MacArthur, Focus on the Family head James Dobson, and established Christian radio psychologists Minirth and Meier on the far-reaching Moody Media empire. “Everyone with a lick of sense knows that, in a violent marriage, the heat is never really off,” Andersen tells me. “Everything can be fine one minute, and the next minute you’re dead.”

In the face of prominent leaders who claim helplessness in the face of biblical tradition, Andersen and a small but growing cadre of like-minded abuse survivors are fighting this established conservative wisdom on domestic violence not with secular or feminist domestic violence tactics, but with new theological arguments arguing for abused wives’ rights within a biblically literalist, and in some cases even complementarian, framework.

While Holladay explains that divorcees will not be turned away from Saddleback, and their divorces will be treated as either any old pre-conversion sin if it happened before they were saved, or forgiven as a repented sin if it happened post-salvation, he nonetheless stresses that mature Christians must admit that their divorce “was more for [their] own selfishness than any other reason.”

For Danni Moss, a pseudonymous blogger and formerly-Baptist abuse survivor, this offer of forgiveness isn’t good enough. “I’m not ok with being accepted because my divorce is in the past, and God accepts and forgives our sins. I didn’t sin in getting a divorce. God directed me.”

Moss’ story of entering and eventually ending an abusive marriage reads like a cautionary tale of the excesses of male headship theology. A daughter of missionaries who followed the popular authoritarian teachings of Bill Gothard, Moss says that her marriage was “arranged” by her father, who believed, as Gothard, that parents know what’s best for their children. Following a popular fundamentalist women’s teaching that love is a choice rather than an emotion, Moss dutifully complied with her father’s choice for her. Hyper-criticism that began on her honeymoon turned into physical abuse when Moss bore the first of her and ex-husband “Gary’s” three children. Sexual assaults and marital rape later became commonplace, as did violence towards both Moss and her eldest two children.

Contrary to Holladay’s limited definition of dangerous abuse, Moss found Gary’s generalized violence, in rages and wall-punching, as damaging as actual beatings. After a particularly intimidating episode, when Gary punched a glass door panel and had to be hospitalized to stop the bleeding of his lacerated arm, Moss left Gary for the first time. “I felt God had shown me that the end of violence was death. I’d kept thinking he would die, but here [with his survival], was this chance that he might not…I realized it would be me if I didn’t get out.”

Moss left Gary twice, but twice was convinced to reconcile with him by their Southern Baptist church, which sent both spouses to marriage counseling, seeking to hear “both sides” of the story. In their focus on reuniting estranged spouses, the counselors gave equal credence to “each side,” equating Gary’s complaints about Moss’s “willful” failures in the kitchen with the physical violence that she and the family endured. Moss believes that the teachings that were common in the SBC and independent Baptist churches that they attended underscored this strategy. “We were taught that women were the completers of men, and that therefore God created Danni for the sole purpose of completing Gary. Since my job was to complete him anywhere he was incomplete, I was supposed to already know what he wanted.” After their first separation and reconciliation, this attitude led Moss to take her children to an outside counselor, so that they could work on “not pushing Gary’s buttons.”

These days, Moss doesn’t attend church -- not because she’s opted out or waned in her faith, but because she hasn’t yet found a church where she feels safe to trust the male authority. After Moss finally divorced Gary, a pastor told her she should return to her father’s house so that she could be under the proper protection of male authority. Though Moss didn’t, she doesn’t disagree with the directive on principle: a distinction that is an interesting part of the community of Christian survivors that Moss and Andersen belong to. In this community, which has become more active in the last several years, theologically focused, and often biblically literalist, women are working to reconcile their belief in the literal truth of the Bible with language that has long justified male authority and female subjugation in literalist churches. In their efforts to square biblical literalism with self-preservation, they’re crafting liberation theologies of a sort that do not spring from women’s lib, at least as it’s conventionally understood. (Moss laughingly relates her surprise at being criticized as feminist -- a label she doesn’t apply to herself at all.)

In Moss’ case, she argues for a distinction between the language of spiritual authority that she can’t deny is part of the Bible she believes in, and actual practiced authority between husbands and wives, which should not involve power hierarchies. In the meantime, she says that good complementarian marriages might not look any different from egalitarian partnerships -- though this common standard of “good intentions,” an echo of traditional complementarian insistences on husbands’ sacrificial headship -- leaves little recourse for women who end up the bad sort. In the latter, Moss sees the hand of the original misogynist, Satan, prophesied to have enmity with woman ever since the Fall, who strikes at women outside of male spiritual “covering” through the violence of abusive husbands: a surprising twist of the complementarian insistence that women be protected under the spiritual covering of a man. Reconciling the seeming contradiction between this literalist biblical command and her championship of women’s right to leave abusers, Moss invokes a third way out traditionally reserved for widows. Domestic violence survivors are widows of a sort as well, she says, and so likewise can consider themselves married to God and safe under his protection.

Andersen, who also writes extensively on biblical prophesy, has a different theological explanation, one with a seemingly more feministic bent. The story of the Fall should not be seen as a prescription for marriage roles, she argues, with women charged to follow men as punishment for acting outside the chain of command, but rather as the first chapter in a long history of domestic violence of husband against wife. In Andersen’s reading, the story of Adam and Eve is that of Adam’s deadly betrayal of his wife: offering her up for punishment -- the wages of eating the apple were death -- rather than owning his blame for sin. Women have been responding in a sort of biblical battered wife syndrome, the “Eve Syndrome,” ever since.

Another of Moss and Andersen’s contemporaries, Barbara Roberts, Australian author of Not Under Bondage: Biblical Divorce for Abuse, Adultery and Desertion, even calls herself a complementarian. Though Roberts believes that complementarianism too often has “an undue emphasis on female submission and too little emphasis on the husband’s duty to protectively lead his wife,” she still agrees with large portions of classic complementarian documents, such as the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood’s Danvers Statement. She holds this belief even as she lays out a theological case for including abuse as one of biblical grounds for divorce: a counterintuitive confluence of ideas, but one which Roberts says is an essential protection for Christian women.

“We know from small studies in Christian contexts, as well as from a great deal of clinical and pastoral experience that domestic abuse is prevalent in Christian contexts,” says Roberts, adding that research has found that Christian women often stay in abusive situations several years longer than secular abused women.

While she sees some churches teaching that “wifely insubmission is the cause of domestic abuse,” as had Bruce Ware, more common is the approach of churches like Saddleback, which allows separation but never divorce for abuse.

“I think Saddleback’s teaching is profoundly and dangerously wrong,” says Roberts, who tried to contact Saddleback twice after the teachings were publicized in early January, offering them her book’s findings that 1 Corinthians 7:15 -- a verse commonly interpreted as applying solely to an unbeliever deserting a believing spouse -- provides the biblical grounds for abused wives to consider their union nullified. “The key question is not ‘who walked out’ but ‘who caused the separation?’ I believe I have provided a thorough and comprehensive refutation of the view held by people like those at Saddleback.”

Refuting Saddleback’s position on biblical grounds is direly important, says Roberts, to account for the different and additional burdens Christian women experience in weighing whether to leave a marriage. “Devout Christian believers are more intensely bound by their desire to obey God: their very real Savior, who they do not want to displease in any way. Christian victims thus put a positive internal pressure on themselves to ‘stay, submit, pray, forgive, and forget the previous abuse because that would be holding unforgiveness.’” Simply put, Roberts says, “A Bible-believing Christian woman needs a biblical argument for leaving a dangerous marriage because she loves God and wants to obey the Bible…Her scriptural dilemma can only be solved by applying and properly interpreting more scripture to counterbalance and correct her unbalanced emphases and misunderstandings.”

It’s to that end that Roberts and her fellow travelers are amassing a library of resources -- novels, personal testimonies, and exegetical material -- for women to whom secular reasons for leaving can’t appeal. Perhaps what’s most compelling about the existence of these seemingly contradictory stances on women’s rights, submission, complementarianism, and abuse is the fact that complementarian teachings and domestic violence are both large enough issues within the evangelical church to give birth to such an array of approaches. These including such nascent theological attempts -- neither quite feminist nor complementarian -- to help give biblically literalist women a safe exit.

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See more stories tagged with: gender, religion, christianity, domestic violence, evangelism, physical abuse

Kathryn Joyce is working on a book about Christian conservative women, to be published by Beacon Press.

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I was raised to believe divorce for spouse abuse was against God's law
Posted by: ladyoracle on Feb 2, 2009 1:59 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But now I don't think the Bible is a sacred text from God, so what it says doesn't bind me. I appreciate Andersen's efforts to reconcile herself with the Bible, and I hope that conservative chritians in abuse marriages will benefit from her solution to the theological debate about divorce and what constitutes "just cause."

At the same time, well just look at the fact that she can't go back to church because she can't "submit" herself to the male authority that placed her in danger. Obivously not, but there's a huge elephant in the room. If men in the church do such a lousy job as husbands and "protectors" and abuse thier power, maybe there's something wrong with that system, and the problem isn't that she's afraid to go back, but that she would be going back to a broken, scary place that has no more God than a death metal concert.

I think she'll come to that conclusion herself and perhaps change denominations and become a female pastor; she seems to have the passion and belief for it, and the world needs people like her. But she can't do that until she drops the literalist leaning which makes women leaders in the church an oxymoron, and which also leads to men sticking up for thier abusive peers as long the abused in question are women.

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» Remember seperation of Church and State Posted by: Crazed Liberal1
BaBird
Posted by: Ka-bird on Feb 2, 2009 3:20 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All religion is voodoo. So trying to find a voodoo solution for a real problem is simply allowing the voodoo to continue. The voodoo of the three abrahamitic religions is particularly obnoxious toward women since all three derive ultimately from a bronze age Judaic culture whose deity was a short tempered sadistic thug. Father worship is as archaic as stone knives.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: BaBird Posted by: Madame Riverotter
» every particle Posted by: aislinnluv
» RE: BaBird Posted by: philosimphy
» RE: Madame Riverotter Posted by: Plexius2
» RE: BaBird **THE GAIA THEORY** Posted by: maribelle
» your bias is showing Posted by: scorpioeagle1950
"Submit"- to what?
Posted by: Woodpecker on Feb 2, 2009 3:54 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The trouble is with this "submission" argument is that going to its ultimate extreme, it all but condones marital rape( what if hubby wants sex, but wifey isn't in the mood- it is presumably her "Christian duty" to submit to his desires- and if she refuses, he is presumably withihn his rights to force her). I am a Christian( Roman Catholic) man by the way!

Terry

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» To many "christian" men. Posted by: wolfgangmo
» RE: "Submit"- to what? Posted by: laoma
» RE: "Submit"- to what? Posted by: Mrs. Jefferson
The good news!
Posted by: noalternative on Feb 2, 2009 3:58 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
there are signs women are leaving conservative denominations finally!

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: The good news! And about time! Posted by: johnbradleycopeland
» RE: The good news! Posted by: J_Mo
Husband's responsibility
Posted by: kittybrat on Feb 2, 2009 4:08 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
in a marriage is to guide the wife, IF you subscribe to archaic misogynistic rules in a damnable text.
There are many men who actually spank their wives, and I'm not talking about the loving sexual stuff.
a few quotes from sites that propose such nonsense:
"the husband is showing practical love when he corrects her with physical and painful discipline for sinful habits or other various things."
link
These folks subscribe to the "fact" that god is head of the man and the man is head of the woman. Therefore if the husband loves the wife, he must correct her when she strays from what god says she must do.
"so much more than just spanking.
It is the husband loving the wife enough to patiently guide and unselfishly cherish her.
It is the wife loving the husband enough to follow his leadership and trust his direction."
and there is a very telling forum about it here:
forum

Of course, Ms Anderson is not talking about this "loving discipline". She's speaking of frustrated men acting out on their wives, and of course of the church then blaming them.
Maybe she can reconcile still being a literalist when it comes to the bible, but if she has an open mind, then she will see this text is NOT the key to salvation at all, but a sure guide to keeping a person damned!

I write this as a woman who was raised to believe a literal interpretation of the bible, and who, as a thinking person, rejects it.

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» RE: Husband's responsibility Posted by: lepidopteryx
» RE: Odd... Posted by: Gisele
» RE: "loving discipline"?? Posted by: WyrdSister
I am a survivor of abuse by church-sanctioned authority
Posted by: abstractedaway on Feb 2, 2009 4:12 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I congratulate the author of this article on a very important tie-in between misguided theology and spousal abuse.

This bears personal significance to me. I watched my mother undergo much of what is described here, and I endured forced starvation, physical assault, and steady psychological/verbal/psychosexual abuse while Pentecostal and Evangelical church authorities sanctioned the man who did it as the appointed authority in our home. We faced ostracism from a great many of our church friends after fleeing that dangerously abusive man. Blindly supporting someone like that simply because they mouth a simple creed is foolish, and it really opened my eyes when those who talked the most about being guided by God were the least wise to it.

Churches which promote this snake-oil collaborate in the monstrous crimes of psychopaths who can and do cause extreme damage to the lives of others. I do not even understand the rationale for this in the context of their own literalism. God killed Nabal, after all, in 1 Samuel 25. Proverbs has much to say about angry fools.

Churches should not presume to do social work without educated workers, and should be ready to work with social services and the authorities. Blind and imbalanced ideas based on the Bible breed a false surety, and you'd be amazed what someone who seems nice enough for a few hours on Sunday can turn into inside the walls of their own home. I for my part wish church staff who saw suspicious cuts and scratches on my throat had done something.

To any women who are with someone who shows abusive patterns, take it from a survivor. Read Men Who Hate Women by Dr. Susan Forward. If you have children especially, get them and yourself out of there - you owe it to your kids and you. This kind of thing can create damage and grief to last a lifetime if you let it. You can't please or an appease someone who's addicted to the high of abusing others. Don't let a spiritual group that does not understand this trick you into letting an insane jerk destroy you.

Horrible things happen to people put under the thumb of an abusive psychopath strictly because of gender. There's a broken system causing it to happen. This is all too common to ignore.

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Should be noted ...
Posted by: Jbuuty on Feb 2, 2009 4:21 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
that not all evangelical churches advocate such teaching.

I don't have any idea what the percentages might be that would promote wifely submission and/or that abuse is not grounds for divorce. I do fear that it is a growing percentage as political and social conservatism has been increasing in American evangelical churches over the past 10-15 years.

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» Duty to speak out Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: Duty to speak out Posted by: Jbuuty
Religion makes a lot of people stupid
Posted by: cberkland on Feb 2, 2009 4:39 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All religions have an incredible way of rendering many who would otherwise be rational, thinking individuals into blind followers of old texts of unknown origin. It's okay to take the good that comes out of these texts, but to follow them literally? Think. Question. Doubt. All discouraged, of course, by those who seek to continue the biggest con game ever inflicted on mankind.

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This reminds me...
Posted by: henderson on Feb 2, 2009 4:59 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
of my favorite "Agnes" cartoon:
(Agnes' friend) "That naso-therm thing is like way beyond dumb!"
(Agnes) "It is very well known that over ninety-eight percent of a semi-hairless mammal's warmth escapes from it's nose."
(Agnes' friend) "That's not true."
(Agnes) "I did not say it was true. I said it was very well-KNOWN!"
(Agnes' friend) "Well-known things don't have to be true?"
(Agnes) Oh...I forgot you aren't religious."

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» THAT'S A GOOD ONE! Posted by: Dennis St. John
Honestly,
Posted by: andrushka on Feb 2, 2009 5:14 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
do you really have to cling to religion and the Bible to have a worthwhile life? Are you not strong enough by yourselves that you have to resort to the teachings of such people as those pastors who preach submission. This amounts to having women as second-class citizens. Is that what you want ladies?

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It's more ridiculous than "male-authority" teachings
Posted by: Jasonix on Feb 2, 2009 5:30 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I know a woman who was beaten by her husband. After he broke their son's jaw, the police forced him to move out and slapped him with a restraining order. He then showed up at Southern Baptist preacher Ed Young's church and converted. A week later, members of this mega-church were calling the woman day and night and telling her that the Bible required her to defy the police and go back and live with him.

Southern Baptists espouse a hard-core fundamentalism that's much more in line with Jerry Falwell and groups like the Bob Jones University, Pensacola Bible Institute, and the Baptist Bible Fellowship. They aren't a part of the National Association of Evangelicals and they withdrew from the Baptist World Alliance - severing their association with the mainstream global Baptist church - a few years ago. Male headship, young-earthism, apocalypticism, and active hostility towards other religious groups that are deemed to be less Biblical are all part of that warped style.

But there are strange quirks, too - when the woman went to a group counseling session at Ed Young's church, she was told that she had to stay with her bone-breaking husband, but another woman in the group was told that she was free to divorce her husband, who was a pastor, because she found one porno site in his browser history. You see, there is a passage in the Bible where Jesus says that you can get divorced for sexual infidelity - in reality, Jesus is talking to men who divorced their wives (thus depriving them of material support in a culture where women had no other options) for any annoyance whatsoever, but in the minds of these American Southern Baptists, there was enough egalitarianism for them to completely miss the historical/cultural context of the original passage and blithely assume that the passage is saying that either spouse is free to divorce an unfaithful spouse. But they're so literalistic that they think that such "unfaithfulness" includes mere fantasy. And they're so disconnected from real life that impersonal computer porn is "infidelity" and worthy of divorce, but battering someone to the point of death is not.

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Ephesians 5:22-33
Posted by: peacelf on Feb 2, 2009 5:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I say if a husband abuses his spouse, or visa versa, the abused should separate and divorce, Bible or not. No where does Jesus say it's okay to beat your spouse.

Nonetheless, if one looks at Paul's letter Ephesians, the passages on women submitting to husbands, you'll find three short verses describing a "wife's" duty in very generic terms. However, a full 8 verses describing a man's duties to his wife, none of which condone physical abuse. "[Husbands] ought to love their wives as they love their own bodies."

Moreover, Paul gave equal power to women in the church as teachers and ministers, praising their service many times. Scholars like Crossan argue that only 6-7 of the letters attributed to Paul are probably his, since the others contradict his teaching.

Everyone knows the Roman influences on Christianity have split Christianity into Constantinian Christians and Prophetic. The Romans were a strict Patriarchy that abused women as a regular part of culture. Convince Christians of this, and you'll solve many issues with dominance.

peace

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» RE: Ephesians 5:22-33 Posted by: Chickensh*tEagle
» RE: phesians 5:22-33 Posted by: kenhymes
» Common Sense Ch 1 V 1 Posted by: NoPCZone
Men in positions of "help."
Posted by: demetria on Feb 2, 2009 5:59 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Years ago my mother went to confession and asked why her then "boyfriend" was beating her. The priest asks "and what is it you did that he beat you?" It never ends for the men of the cloth, who are so holy and abuse children.

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Evangelicals only care about ONE Life to bring on their Death wish.
Posted by: Purple Girl on Feb 2, 2009 6:07 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It outrages me to hear so called 'Evangelicals' claim they are 'Prolife' when they are the first to disgard those lives that are being lived. They don't give a damn about Life, they are only worried about the '2nd Coming'. Obviously they have no Faith that the 'Almighty' can easily assure the 're birth' if so desired.
They are willing to send Kids off to war, ignore famine, poverty and disease, deny environmental Stewardship, Kill MD's, bomb clinics and devalue the lives of those who don't comply with their sociopathic dogma.
Hell these maniacs DREAM of the End of Days. Hagee has even proposed a Game plan to kick off the 'festivites'.Apparently God isn't keeping up with the Evangelicals 'Grand Design', so they are trying to usurp His.
What is the difference between Mansons scheme to bring on 'Helter Skelter' by creating a Race War, and Hagees plan to pre-emptively strike Iran to spark Amegeddon...Absolutely Nothing!And isn't still suicide and murder to provoke such global warfare?
But of course it's not only the Evangelicals who are itchig for a 'End of Days' Scenario the muslims and Jews have their Heretics.And The Pope appears to have decided to let his Nazi Youth Freak flag fly by reinstating Holocaust Deniers back into the Church- goes great with your legion of pedophiles.These are the 'Deceivers' who have Proven they serve only One.."Could it be Satan" or just their own Egos and twisted delusions of Grandeur?

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Not God's Will
Posted by: curiousdwk on Feb 2, 2009 6:08 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All of these two stated valid reasons and all of the stated invalid reasons is to continue "What God has joined". What does it take for someone to realize that maybe what they thought should be joined, isn't necessarily what God thought should be joined? Possibly the original marriage was a mistake. But since God doesn't talk to people today like he used to, it's pretty difficult to know what his will is in our lives. It's probably best to realize that the bad news is that there is no god; but the good news is that you don't need a god.

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Nuance please about a serious issue
Posted by: kenhymes on Feb 2, 2009 7:00 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Everything described by the writer and the survivors she interviewed is all too real, and a scandal. But so many posters (and I suspect the Alternet editorial staff) see this problem as an "opportunity" to trash all connected with religion. I have no interest in debating cosmology or spirituality with anyone. What I would point out, as someone with extensive experience with churches, is that most churches in America are basically run by women. Most pastors don't have the slightest ability to influence domestic behavior. Most churches are small. Most big churches are bland, "prosperity Gospel" churches, with a focus on personal growth rather than personal sacrifice... a message at odds with the purported teachings of Jesus, but not one focused on male authority.

It is a very particular brand of church, of which Saddleback is unfortunately a VERY successful example, which is the most insidious. Example: There's a church in my town, which I won't name here, which puts its obsession with male authority front and center, in its sermons, website and printed materials. Anyone who is not looking for that takes one look and says "ewww" and moves on. It's dangerous for the families who do attend, I don't defend it, I think it's un-Christian in the extreme (part of the problem here is the way the church tries to make the Gospels fit with the rest of the Bible, which they don't AT ALL). But in the context of the larger church, this kind of place is a drop in the bucket.

What is much more of a problem is the "bait and switch" approach of some churches like Saddleback, wherein the upfront face is all uplift and well-prepared pop music, and fairly vague sermons, but behind that is a homophobic, sexist, pro-business mentality utterly at odds with the Gospels.

You have to understand that there are Christians and there are Christ-followers. The latter category is growing everyday, while the former is under siege, shrinking in appeal (especially to young people) and desperately angling to maintain its currency in the culture.

The church I lead music at is open-minded, friendly to skeptics (one of the worship design team is openly disbelieving of many claims of mainstream Christianity, especially that of exclusive truth), justice-oriented (passionately engaged in local service and advocacy around homelessness and affordable housing), and very conscious of the well-earned negative perceptions of the church.

None of that excuses a jot of the crap that goes on in the name of Jesus. But the left really needs to get a grip here, and realize that most people in most places believe in invisible things in some way. It may seem ridiculous to you, maybe you even think we're all mentally ill, but it's a social and political reality. In the past alliances and coalitions between secular academics, Jewish social activists, and Christian progressives have been crucial to peace and justice movements. Now it seems the anger is so thick that these alliances are hard to imagine in many places (thankfully they exist healthily in my town, to the benefit of vulnerable people... not enough, but something). If I can distinguish between a Stalinist and a Marxist, read about both with an open mind and heart, and recognize the important insights into our problems contained in Marx's writings, then maybe the folks who insist on the primacy of rationality and evidence can be troubled to actually find out more about the American church than is found in the stories about the worst of the worst. After all, what matters more... being right about the universe, or being successful in achieving social justice? Roger Ailes and Karl Rove have succeeded in driving a wedge between us, and have raised the profile of people who don't speak for the larger body of believers. let's not take our eyes off the prize - justice for all, reconciliation and respect for diversity in our culture.

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» Lots to learn Posted by: BobKincaid
» RE: Lots to learn Posted by: kenhymes
» RE: Lots to learn Posted by: BobKincaid
Angels Tap Dancing On The Head Of A Pin
Posted by: BobKincaid on Feb 2, 2009 7:07 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This entire line of inquiry is moot and invalid insofar as it offers ANY level of validity to ANY organized religion.

Organized religion is poison. It yields battered spouses, husbands shot in the back with shotguns, mothers stoning children to death in the name of "god," mothers drowning children in the name of "god," an entire subculture of clerics and authority figures engaging in kiddie rape, pre-pubescent girls married off to middle-aged men and virtually every single social ill that besets society.

No organized religion gets a pass. It's not the doctrine, it's the INSTITUTION.

There's a reason kiddie-diddling scoutmasters lurk in the basements of lutheran/presbyterian/baptist/catholic churches; why pedophilia is condoned as "law" in Islam, why Mormons and their offshoots still wink at polygamy, why women to this day immolate themselves in Hindu culture. The list goes on.

Institutional, organized religion always fosters some degree of acquiesence to some insane, irrational "beliefs." Once one has self-subjugated to that, as well as acknowledging that there is such a thing as a "heresy" or "blasphemy," then what follows is a liturgy of excuses for abuses.

All organized relgions evolve from cults. Cults, themselves, carry the seeds of abuse.

When we figure this out and get past the magic and the "believing," then, and only then, will we have even a chance to eradicate this miserable conduct from humanity's littany of sorrows.

America's Liberal Voice

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» Fair? Posted by: kenhymes
» Cute attempt, but fails Posted by: BobKincaid
» RE: Cute attempt, but fails Posted by: kenhymes
» RE: Cute attempt, but fails Posted by: BobKincaid
» YOU ARE MUCH MISTAKEN Posted by: Dennis St. John
» RE: YOU ARE MUCH MISTAKEN Posted by: BobKincaid
phyllis
Posted by: pj1fwb on Feb 2, 2009 7:09 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You do realize that they are using a book that was written by Men for Men! Plus the earth was still considered FLAT at the time of this writing! Women have had enough of abuse thru these thousands of years! The church should back up women and not have them put up with abuse!

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» RE: phyllis Posted by: kenhymes
Concerning abuse
Posted by: jw56 on Feb 2, 2009 7:16 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Other readers are probably not going to believe anything I write here. People in the church tend to not believe me either. My former wife was the abuser (physical, emotional, and mental) in my marriage. She is of a more fundamentalist bent than I am, and the pastor & assistant pastor at the church we attended and where we sought "counseling" kept hammering into me that it was my responsibility to assume the "mantle of leadership" in the family. They did counsel her to "submit" to me, but submission was not something I asked of her. My ideal was a marriage of equals, though I doubt anyone here believes me. I've discovered that liberals and progressives are as intolerant of dissent from their assumed beliefs as anyone else.

I won't go further into the details. My divorce, which I pursued, was not pleasing to the church. The pastor told me it was wrong. Many, not all, churchgoers that knew us during our marriage shun me now. A couple of people have asked me to explain what happened, and when I gave some details I was told I was lying. You have to remember in their eyes I was the "ungodly" partner in the marriage. She was a fervent worshiper, while I'm what they consider "lukewarm." I'm someone that they see God spewing from his mouth.

Again, I doubt you'll believe my comments, but I feel compelled to express it. Abuse is wrong, whether in the church or outside of it, whether the husband is the abuser or the wife is the abuser. Believe me, the wife can be the abuser, and if the husband is considered an outsider her lies will be believed.

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» RE: Concerning abuse Posted by: Gisele
» RE: Concerning abuse Posted by: BlueTigress
» Believed Posted by: kittybrat
» RE: Concerning abuse Posted by: crowd3r
gathaiga
Posted by: gathaiga on Feb 2, 2009 7:18 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Prosecute these members of the "clergy" as accessories to a crime if they promote tolerating an abusive spouse.

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Why Do Women Follow a Religion that is Against Them?
Posted by: Shankari46 on Feb 2, 2009 7:19 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If God doesn't like you and thinks that you caused the downfall of man, why do you believe in such a religion? If you are so bad that you have to cover your head, bow down and kiss your husband's feet, why do you follow this? If god thinks you are so bad, then why did he create you? God don't make no junk, and that includes women. If someone preaches that you have to submit because you are inferior in some way, then this is not the right way. What people does god claim are inferior and what people does god claim are superior?

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» Simple brainwashing Posted by: kittybrat
I guess being single doesn't make me a loser unlike what some try to make me think.
Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield on Feb 2, 2009 7:20 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I grew up in rural Misery (MO) but after I got a good job offer in St Louis, I moved. I sometimes feel lonely being a single in my late 20s and can't stand it that most of my high school and college friends are married but all too often I noticed that they have been having troubled relationships and even serious financial problems. Thankfully, we get together and do our best to help resolve each others troubled spots.

The religious bullying in a relationship almost always comes from financial crunches. This is the reason why I put career and financial stability even at the cost of getting married late or not at all. Sometimes my friends and parents get worried that my not getting married will result in my downfall but even though I may experience moments of loneliness as a single when I could really have a partner to relate to in life, this article pretty much reminds me of why I did not want to get married early at the risk of being a house wife or stuck at minimum wage out in rural MO.

I would like to add that it is not always the case that the woman is the victim in all these cases of evangelical bullying within a married couple. My former boyfriend, now married, has been bullied by his self-righteous evangelical wife.

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» Single Is Best Posted by: westomoon
» Time for New Friends! Posted by: westomoon
» RE: Time for New Friends! Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield
» RE: Single Is Best Posted by: Lilly
» RE: Single Is Best Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield
» Friends or Dates Posted by: westomoon
» RE: Friends or Dates Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield
The absurdity
Posted by: TexasCowboy on Feb 2, 2009 7:26 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
of the religious right defies logical thinking, but it is designed by those to interpret biblical law from thousands of years ago into to giving them power (and an agenda) to manipulate and control those who would not think for themselves. They prey on those they perceive as weaker than they such as women and gays and distort scripture to use as the foundation of their reign of terror. As a Christian and I don’t judge others who are not, I suggest God gave all people wisdom and the right to think for themselves. We do not need ‘white men’ who wrap themselves in sheep’s clothing, to interject ancient laws on today’s civilization, who ‘pick and choose’ scripture to serve their own ends.
If one is to follow the agenda of the religious right, they should also consider why they do not impose some of the following:
The Book of Deuteronomy
22:5 Women are not to wear men's clothing -- it's an "abomination unto the Lord."
17:2-7 Kill everyone who has religious beliefs that are different from your own
17:12-13 Anyone who will not listen to a priest or a judge must be executed.
14:10 Don't eat any seafood unless it has fins and scales. Oysters, clams, crabs, and lobsters are "unclean" and shouldn't be eaten.
21:18-21 If you have a "stubborn and rebellious son," then you and the other men in your neighborhood "shall stone him with stones that he die."
21:15-17 Rules for those who have two wives: "one beloved, and another hated."
21:15-17 How to treat your hated children.
23:1 You can't go to church if your testicles are damaged or your penis has been cut off.
23:10 God lays down the law regarding wet dreams. "If there be among you any man that is not clean by reason of uncleanness that chanceth him by night ..."
25:5-10 If a man dies without having a child, his brother shall "go in unto" his dead brother's wife. If he refuses, the dead man's wife is to loosen his shoe and spit in his face.

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» Re: Women are not to wear men's clothing Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield
» For clarity's sake Posted by: BobKincaid
» RE: For clarity's sake Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield
» RE: For clarity's sake Posted by: BobKincaid
» RE: For clarity's sake Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield
» RE: For clarity's sake Posted by: lepidopteryx
» RE: For clarity's sake Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield
» RE: For clarity's sake Posted by: BobKincaid
Sounds like a lawsuit
Posted by: scheherezade on Feb 2, 2009 7:28 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Professional authorities aiding and abetting criminal behavior that damages clients?

Sounds like grounds for a whole lot of lawsuits.

Some of these pastors, especially those in fundamentalist groups like Southern Baptists and Assemblies of God skim healthy paychecks off those collection plate contributions.

These ladies need to find good lawyers.

Just one or two big damages awards would put a halt to these practices entirely. Local "pastors" love their lifestyles a lot more than they love the sexual high they get from abusing women by proxy.

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» RE: Sounds like a lawsuit Posted by: bcgirl125
Spiraling in to the Abyss of Nonsense
Posted by: Xynyx on Feb 2, 2009 7:41 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Looking for "answers" from scripture to counter other assertions based on scripture in a prescription for perpetual submission. That way lies insanity.

The texts are finite, and they were rather carefully filtered by patriarchal forces to ensure that they served their purposes.

If you are looking for answers in this fashion, you are drowning in a vortex of nonsense. The more you delve into the book for answers, the closer you remain to the center of the vortex, and the more rapidly it will pull you down. Move to the edge of the vortex and swim to the water's surface; there is where you will find the oxygen you need.

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Voodoo............
Posted by: Spiritgirl on Feb 2, 2009 7:42 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Seems to me these "Good Christian" men, have many things in common with fundamentalist Islam men when it comes to "their" women! Submission by women is paramount and any deviation on her part is not tolerated! The only difference between them being the Islamic woman covers her shame with a burqua!

That fundamentalist Christians actually believe that b.s. (shows what sheep they really are)! Any man that needs to beat a woman down, is really not a man! He is a pathetic man-child that never has to take real responsibility for his actions or lack thereof! Just substitute Christian fundamentalist for Islamic fundamentalist, either way the women of these societies pay the price!

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» RE: Voodoo............ Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield
Abuse
Posted by: kclaf on Feb 2, 2009 7:42 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When is humanity ever going to get it? Violence of any kind is the last resort of the incompetent.

There is never ANY excuse for abusive behavior.

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» RE: Abuse Posted by: sassy
Been there, done that
Posted by: lepidopteryx on Feb 2, 2009 7:43 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My first husband was abusive. I went to my then pastor seeking help in finding another place to live, and was counseled that I shouldn't leave him, but "pray for God to change his heart." So I stayed and I prayed. And it nearly got me killed. Nothing changed for the better until I got off my knees and onto my feet and walked out the door and into a lawyer's office. I also never set foot in that church again.

After that, I made a promise to myself that the first time a man raised his hand in my direction would be the last. I have kept that promise.

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» RE: Been there, done that Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: Been there, done that Posted by: Gisele
» ME TOO! Posted by: iolanthe
INVENTIONS
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN on Feb 2, 2009 7:53 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Religion was invented when the first fool met the first charlatan.

It has gotten progressively worse from there.

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Religion - A Curse on Mankind!
Posted by: johnbradleycopeland on Feb 2, 2009 8:06 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Evangelicals and all other religions are a curse on mankind! Religions continue to kill every day claiming to be acting in the name of "God"! What ignorance has lasted so long! Why do the people of the world continue to allow thier children to be "taught" this stupidty and mind control? People of "faith" actually have no faith in themselves. I do not want and will not tolerate an American Taliban of theologians controlling my life! The women of the world must revolt and stop this insanity!

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Domestic violence is the most dangerous police call
Posted by: jeffrey7 on Feb 2, 2009 8:09 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hemp Legalization = Police Safety

Ok, I know some of my friends are thinking I've just lost what few braincells I had left and may probably be writhing on the floor,foaming at the mouth. That might happen someday but let's delve into my alledged lunacy for a second.

The most dangerous call the cops have to make,by their own admission, are calls for 'Domestic Distrubance'. They're walking into an already hot situation andanything really can happen. Sometimes people wind up injured or worse. Not just the domestic combatants but the cops too. That's why they hate making these calls. Besides not really wanting to get involved with someone's marriage/family troubles,they don't want to get zapped by someone who thinks the last thing they need is a cop for marriage advice.

Now a long time back,in the 1920's, there was a group that was successful in getting drunken abusive husbands court ordered onto 'Hashish Therapy'
because it cooled a hot temper. The group was, The Women's Temperance League. Good job Ladies!!!

I know what you're thinking, 'Why the hell aren't we in the 1920's? Damn that was a time to live in!'. No...it wasn't.
Besides our time is now. Booze is legal so we need a new approach to the 'Legalization Situation'. Barney Frank has a good idea with his Bill, H.R.5843,keeping marujuana use limited to consenting adults,but it needs a kicker that will make it through the criminal justice committee's it gets sent through. They are the ones responsible for keeping hemp bills from becoming Hemp Laws. Forget the 'schoolhouse rock' bull,that's not how bills become law,so it's a lie.

We need to draft a 'act' that may be easier to pass. This 'act' could be called something like 'The Police Safety and Domestic Tranquility Through Hemp Legalization
Act'

For the increased safety and psychological wellbeing of attending officers,on domestic violence calls,the most dangerous calls to said officers,and for the fostering of domestic tranquility where alchohol leads to domestic confrontations, we undertake to increase the safety of both the Police Officers involved and the domestic participants by legalizing the use,possesion,non-profit transfer,shareing and growing,of cannibas hemp.
Because of it's long,5000 year history as a pacifying agent and it's low risk of zero overdoses,that for the safety of the Police and the society,we make,for consenting adults,HEMP LEGAL

I think this could be a very workable approach. In America "Cop Safety' goes a long way.
This could be the biggest populace movement in history.

This thought is offered for your opinion by;
CITIZEN'S CONCERNED for POLICE SAFETY.

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» GOD GAVE US MARIJUANA Posted by: Dennis St. John
living among the savages
Posted by: littlepitcher on Feb 2, 2009 8:18 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've read that Bible cover to cover, and if you do the same (know thy enemy) you will not find a single instance of wife-beating in it.

Stoning, yes. Jesus got rid of that, allegedly.

Men who quote the Bible seldom are all that religious. They want women to keep the faith, keep their legs open, their mouth shut, and their kids and house clean, and women had better obey the rules while they are out looting and backstabbing the unbelievers.

And yes, most religions, including modern religions, are attempts, successful or otherwise, to organize a bully-gang and support a con-artist at the top. If you find a non-Christian organization which hires only Christians, they should be sued under open-shop laws. If Christians are allowing their wives to be beaten, then three instances plus three condonings by Christian leadership equal grounds for prosecution under RICO statutes--if you can find an attorney with the brains, guts, and ethical fortitude to do it, for they are scarce and busy.

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» RE: living among the savages Posted by: Sister_Lauren
If GOD is all-knowing; then he knew Eve would eat the apple...
Posted by: cyr3n on Feb 2, 2009 8:35 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... so how is that a sin?? If I have a 2-month old puppy and I tell it, "don't shit on the rug" and it does.. who's fault is that??

If you're killing and abusing other humans because of their gender or religious differences.. you're not 'fighting for God' (by killing God's other creatures? get real) you're furthering the devil's goals by seperating humans from one another. Here's a simple litmus test: If what you're doing is driving people apart, chances are its evil. Don't do it!

God = Love.

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» Lacking in common sense Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: Lacking in common sense Posted by: Sister_Lauren
This topic definitely needs to be discussed!
Posted by: crowd3r on Feb 2, 2009 8:36 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First things first, Chrisitanity is NOT a religion it is a Relationship. The definition of Latin Originated word religion means "to return to bondage" and Christ came to set us free. What Religion is, is when man (or woman) rises up in a position where they feel that they are gods over a congregation and tells the people to practice ungodly ways and to follow traditions that appear to be righteous outwardly, but are full of sin inwardly. God warns of such people (Pharisees) and the judgement that will befall them if they do not repent.

Now, I am in the same situation. I have just seperated from my husband of 5 1/2 years due to abuse in all forms. I have warred within my own mind and heart regarding leaving him for a very long time because I did not want to break my wedding vows that I took before God. Although there is no directive in the Bible concerning leaving your spouse because of abuse, I came to the realization however, that my "husband" had broken his marriage vows long before I had even considered a divorce, which frees me to seek the legal termination of that contract with no remorse.

Traditional wedding vows state, "I, _______, take you, _______, to be my wife/husband, according to God’s holy decree: to have and to hold from this day forward, for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death do us part: and to that I pledge you my faithfulness. "
(www.myweddingvows.com)
Notice the words to LOVE and to CHERISH. If you love and cherish something or someone would you abuse it/him/her? I think not! Further more in 1 Corinthians 13 where it speaks of love (charity: Christian love; agape. As defined in www.dictionary.com) it says love (charity) is kind, longsuffering, does not behave itself unseemly... it does not state that (christian) love is abusive.

In Ephesians 5:22 it states for wives to submit to their OWN husbands, yet for some strange reason no one can recall or acknowledges the rest of this chapter! It goes on to say in verse 25, "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;" If Husbands are not leading in a Christlike manner, with unconditional love, mercy, tenderness and provision, etc. in the same manner that Christ loves the church, why in God's name do we expect wives to submit to them?!
Now going back to Ephesians 5:22 where the scripture often times is taken out of context because we do not read every word.. It says, "Wives, submit yourselves unto your OWN husbands, as unto the Lord." It does not say wives submit to your husbands and leaves it at that. God is a jealous God and to enter into a relationship with him we are to Love and commune with Christ as well as other people. If we are worshipping idols like money, cars, fashion, careers, children, even our own husbands, it is like committing adultery in the relationship that you are in with Christ.
This is the same concept which is speaking here in that verse whereas the wife is to remain faithful and in tune with her OWN husband. We must not forget that the husband must also be held accountable much more so than the wife, because he is the head as God instructed, but he is NOT to be abusive, he is to be LOVING then the wife would have no problem in submitting to him by definition:
- to yield oneself to the power or authority of another
- to allow oneself to be subjected to some kind of treatment
- to defer to another's judgment, opinion, decision, etc
(www.dictionary.com)
What happens when a child is in an abusive home? The authorities remove that child from that home and away from their own parents (if it's not too late). Is a woman or a wife of less worth or importance than a child? NO!
If she is being abused she must for her safety and her children find means to leave.

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I wasn't quite finished... lol! :)
Posted by: crowd3r on Feb 2, 2009 8:37 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jesus came as God's son yet served other people by teaching/ ministering, providing (food) for them, healing their sicknesses and forgiving them. He even washed the disciples feet (and this was before tennis shoes and automobiles so you can just imagine how dirty)! He said that the greatest among you is the least and vice versa.
Continue searching for the right church family regardless of the gender of the pastor. The man or woman in the pulpit is not your god, you already have access to Him through Jesus Christ. Do not forsake the fellowship with your bretheren as it increases your faith. Pray and ask God to lead you in the right direction in finding a new church home.
As the body of Christ we must lift one another up and help one another to turn from sin because even Christians sin, Pastors and all.
There is only one who is Perfect and he sits on the right Hand of God.

God bless & I hope this helps someone else :)

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» RE: A shortcut... Posted by: Gisele
» Sister Lauren Posted by: dudelette
Christianity corrupts,......
Posted by: tap17x on Feb 2, 2009 8:49 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
..........and absolute Christianity corrupts absolutely. In harm done to humankind, it has probably exceeded the other two big C's, Cancer and Communism.

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I Was An Abused AOG Wife
Posted by: iolanthe on Feb 2, 2009 9:10 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
25-30 years ago, I was a physically abused wife in a church (much like Sarah Palin's) associated with the Assemblies of God.

I wrestled with all this -- trying to stay a Literalist, trying to practice intelligent submission -- while married to a brilliant but insecure madman, a Hans Reiser (google it) type. My husband was wealthy, handsome, tops in his scientific field, and *way* too free with his fists, for the most minor wifely "infractions" (e.g. cooking the same thing for dinner that he'd had at lunch ... when I had no way of knowing what he'd had for lunch at the office!)

Once, when my kids and I were in the car on the freeway and he was driving erratically (too fast, too close), I asked him to please slow down. He screeched to a dead stop on the freeway, leaned over, and began to pound me for "ordering him around". Then he pulled over to the shoulder to finish pounding me in front of my children. Then he pushed me out of the car and told me to walk home. I did.

I hadn't even raised my voice. I never did in those days. I'd simply asked him to be more careful. This man could *never* be wrong, in his own eyes.

The AOG pastor's wife (what passed for a marriage counselor) merely told me to "pray over his belongings" each morning, and to "come against" evil spirits that "tormented" him. I was to regard my husband with sympathy and gratitude. She also asked me "How much does he drink?" The answer was "Not at all! Not one drop!" Although now, in hindsight, I realize that man went through an entire bubble-pak of Sudafed every couple of days.

I tried all kinds of prayer and counseling and tricks, eventually learning to live my life walking on eggshells. The abuse continued. I was slapped for errors in my checkbook (that *HE* had made), for answering the phone when I was supposed to be cooking for a dinner party, for having a broken thermostat replaced without his permission, etc. He repeatedly told me that no one else would ever want me or my kids, that I was ugly, etc.

This experience cured me of Biblical Literalism. I got my kids to safety ("vacation at Grandma's"), then left one morning with only the clothes on my back and exactly half of what was in our checking account.

Thank God he wasn't the father of my kids!

For the past 21 years, I've been married to a Heavy Metal Musician ... who is the kindest most generous most amusing man I've ever met. Yes, my old churchmates would say that my Faith is now in tatters. I'm probably now an Agnostic who respects the Bible and Jesus but no longer considers them roadmaps for life.

My faith is in tatters.
But my life is going great.
I ran into an old friend from church days not long ago, who wondered if I felt some horrible yawning void in my soul, now that I was Apostate.

Nope. Doing fine. The Yawning Void was what I felt when I was being hit for no good reason, and no one in the church would really listen or really help me.

I could never worship, or even respect, any God who actually expects any woman (or man) to stay in a marriage that nightmarish. It strikes me as the height of Blasphemy to think that God wants, or even allows, such a thing!

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» RE: I Was An Abused AOG Wife Posted by: abstractedaway
» RE: I Was An Abused AOG Wife Posted by: tatamchwh
» RE: I Was An Abused AOG Wife Posted by: Obamasupporter
Biblical Battered Wife Syndrome: Christian Women and Domestic Violence
Posted by: joe_is_in_the_room on Feb 2, 2009 9:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would say the Bible has become the Army Field Manual, except of course, it's backed by laws.

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Women and Slaves
Posted by: Libertine on Feb 2, 2009 9:36 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Though I'm not a Christian as evangelicals would describe it, I have read the Bible in great detail.

In the 19th century, Christians who opposed the abolition of slavery, and later, civil rights for black people based their opposition on Bible passages that commanded slaves to obey their masters. The most prominent passage is in Ephesians, which closely follows those pertaining to husbands and wives. This Biblically-based opposition to the full equality of black people persisted until the 1960s for some, with Jerry Falwell being a case in point.

Just as they do now with women, they argued that God had intended for some people to be subordinate to others; in one case women to men, in the other blacks to whites.

They conveniently ignored or dismissed Galatians 3:28, where it states that "there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one is Christ Jesus", preferring to adhere to the negative passages rather than the positive one.

However, evangelicals no longer adhere to a literalist interpretation of the passages pertaining to slaves and masters. They now admit that rather than endorsing slavery and/or subordination for all time, that such passages simply addressed the realities of the times and dealt with people's situations as they were, rather than how they should always be.

As they've done with slavery and racial relations,I can't understand why they can't do the same for women. As with slavery, the male-female passages dealt with people as they were -- female submission was already a fact in the ancient world; it wasn't something new or uniquely Christian. Even the Ephesians passage -- which properly begins with verse 21: "Submit yourselves one to another in the fear of Christ".

Because women then already had to submit, as did slaves, these passages were more about telling them how. What was new was telling masters and husbands to treat those whom society(not God)had placed under them with consideration. These passages were meant to help people get along in a society that already existed, not to set it in stone.

Just as evangelicals now admit that the slavery verses were never meant to forever enshrine an ancient society's practices, they need to apply the same reasoning to the marriages verses and others that deal with the status of women. In the same way that they acknowledged modern realities with racial issues, they'll have to do the same with women if they want Christianity to remain relevant to people in the future.

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MOST ALL CHURCHES HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH CHRISTIANITY
Posted by: Dennis St. John on Feb 2, 2009 9:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The first thing to consider is that most churches are corporations doing business as churches. It is nothing short of madness to continue all the hair-splitting of false and apostate churches like Rick Warren's Brokeback megachurch.

Since the advent of the ministry of Jesus Christ, the Spirit is pre-imminent over the Law. (Actually, it always was, but Jesus came to make that abundantly clear.) Jesus explained divorce plainly. Originally, there was no such thing, i.e. God did not intend it, but because of the hardness of heart of some men (abuse), Moses permitted it.

These modern false prophets masquerading as pastors know nothing of the Spirit. The scripture conveniently omitted is, "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for it..." Jesus willingly submitted himself to crucifixion for the sake of the church, the bride of Christ. No man could love a woman like that and abuse her. Men who abuse women are not Christians. "Those who have not the Spirit of Christ are none of His."

Furthermore, it is childish to nitpick scriptures to death. Jesus said to love your enemies, but he called his enemies swine, serpents, vipers brood, foxes, dogs, et al, showing no love toward the impenitent. He said to forgive those who mistreat you, but he never forgave Judas, who betrayed him. He said, "Good were it for that man if he had never been born."

"In malice be babes, but in understanding be mature."

No one who knows God would compel a woman to suffer abuse for the sake of some dim-witted interpretation of scripture. Those sons of belial who compel women to do so are wolves in sheep's clothing. Attending theological cemeteries sounds the death-knell for mature understanding of scripture.

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Jesus never beat his wife
Posted by: hurricane hugo on Feb 2, 2009 10:01 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
.

#@!

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This Story Needs to be Told! Contact me for information - Evangelicals & Government Supported Abuse
Posted by: control is abuse on Feb 2, 2009 10:51 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Family Court, Father’s Rights, Abuse/Control & the True Meaning of “Family Values”
The Theocratic take-over of Government has resulted in a diminishing of civil liberties as the social agenda has become more important than the Constitution on which our Nation was founded. The “family values” agenda is merely another name for permission and advocating of the Male’s right to control and own property of women and children. Sadly, the extreme end result has become am endorsement of Pedophilia operating within our Nations Family Court funded by Department of Health and Human Services grants. Women’s Rights resulted in an increase in awareness of domestic violence (coercive control) and its effects on family life. Less stigma of divorce, resulted in women leaving abusive/controlling relationships. Pregnancy is often a catalyst for the first instance of abuse. Controllers are likely to legally abuse their victims under the guise of family court custody actions. H.R. 3073 was tailored to send millions of taxpayer dollars to groups that undermine child support enforcement systems, provide biased child visitation/access programs and counsel non-custodial dads on how to avoid paying child support altogether by switching custody. Theocrats such as James Dobson wrote Welfare Reform. Theocrats believe poverty can be cured by forced marriage. America has a religious right that has aligned with the Father’s Rights Movement in order to subvert the law to “decide” what is a troubled marriage and to “punish” women and children for leaving and not tolerating abusive relationships. The Bush administration used HHS and the lowest levels of family law to obliterate domestic violence from family research, filtering its false research through an elaborate web of Institutional grants, using Practitioners rewarded to deny abuse, submit false reports in Court and supply manufactured statistics to Fatherhood programs , publications, and websites DOJ/FBI investigations of the denial of civil rights, perjury, obstruction of justice, color of law violations, pedophilia, are halted. The ideology of “the bible is a greater rule of law than the Constitution” is found at all levels of Government. “Regent University School of Law, founded by televangelist Pat Robertson to provide "Christian leadership to change the world," Regent has had no better friend than the Bush administration. Judges, lawyers and court “experts” hold secret memberships in hidden agenda groups such as The Federalist Society, Christian Legal Society, and the Association of Family and Conciliation Courts who purposely omit domestic violence through a network of court administrators, judges, lawyers and court “experts.” Members force conciliation, counseling or therapy, and entertain junk science claims of borderline personality disorder (instead of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) and Parental Alienation Syndrome (instead of abuse). The Government even pays to award children to felons.

http://www.now.org/issues/legislat/12-03-99.html and http://www.nowfoundation.org/issues/family/
http://www.seekgod.ca/topiccnp.htm http://www.jeanhardisty.com/booksandessays.html and http://www.publiceye.org/index.php http://www.legalmomentum.org/our-work/sfr/ http://center.americanvalues.org/?p=25
. http://webexhibits.org/bush/index.html www.ncoff.gse.upenn.edu a concerted attempt to write abuse out of the research on male parenting. Research winds up on http://www.familyfacts.org/ The Heritage Foundation http://www.mediatransparency.org/story.php?storyID=158 Lawsuit proving Marriage Promotion is designed to force women to follow the New Testament and influence their husbands by remaining quiet. Women are instructed to remember 'the Bible says that the husband is the head of the wife.' counseling programs advise women that 'the Bible says wife should submit to the husband

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» Excellent Post! Posted by: goatini
The author never mentions Juanita Bynum
Posted by: Kym525 on Feb 2, 2009 11:10 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am getting really sick of articles and books like this that are only focused on white women, as if THEY are the only ones things like this happen to. Writers have got to start doing a much better job researching and seeking out common ground with women regardless of color or class.

It's not as if Juanita Bynum's situation was unknown because the media jumped all over it for a few days. Bynum's former husband, Reverend Thomas Weeks III beat her senseless in a parking lot after trying to reconcile. She has left the church that she helped to found with him and is working with other women to free themselves of this kind of mindset. Unfortunately, she has come under fire not just from some black men, but has been chastised by some black women for 'airing her dirty laundry' and not standing by her man regardless. There is NO reason that her case was not included in this article.

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This is what happens...
Posted by: DaBear on Feb 2, 2009 11:13 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Xtians stole Jewish texts and reinvented them in their own image. If they were legitimate "literalists" they couldn't be Xtians anymore.

The whole cult is a lie, based on a lie, based on cultural theft.

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So Many Things Wrong
Posted by: dudelette on Feb 2, 2009 11:33 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Background: I was brought up as a Southern Baptist, then my parents became Jehovah's Witnesses. Both of these religions believe that wifely submission will prevent abuse. Obviously that's wrong. Often, the more submissive a woman becomes the more abusive the husband is. The verse in the Bible that speaks of limiting divorce was spoken to Jewish men. Jewish men could divorce their wives as easily as Muslim men can. They were being counseled to not divorce their wives on a whim, but only for serious cause.

In the last chapter of Proverbs, the good wife is described as running her household, even going so far as purchasing property and planting a vineyard to increase income. Independent women are mentioned in the New Testament, women with their own businesses. While a woman is supposed to submit to her husband as the church does to God, there's no record of God ever leaving the church black and blue. There is no place in the Bible where it states that a woman must endure abuse from her husband. In fact, it says that a man must love his wife. Love =/= abuse.

The fear of eternal suffering in Hell keeps many of these women enduring the abuse. Hell does not exist. The scriptures were twisted by priests to scare people into becoming believers. Gehenna was a trash dump. Yes, it burned day and night, but the same materials were not burned. The point was that it was the ultimate destruction of something. A body thrown into Gehenna (one not deserving of burial) would be burned up to ash and never found and their memory forgotten.

God is supposed to be a god of love, yet everything that is said of him seems to make this a lie.

These are just some of the reasons I am no longer a Christian.

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» RE: So Many Things Wrong Posted by: crowd3r
» RE: So Many Things Wrong Posted by: dudelette
Tough love
Posted by: maxsmart on Feb 2, 2009 11:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I guess if someone goes in for tough love and the God with the heavy hand that's their problem... I recommend get a new religion preferably one not from the Middle East!!!
They have freedom of religion but if they are attempting to influence civil law with their lack of loving attitudes from the dark ages then they should not be allowed to force their ignorant views on us...

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women's rights and animal rights
Posted by: vasumurti on Feb 2, 2009 11:55 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A 1980 United Nations report states that women constitute half the world’s population, perform nearly two-thirds of its work hours, yet receive one-tenth of the world’s income and own less than one-hundredth of the world’s property.

The impact of the women’s movement upon the church is being heralded as a Second Reformation. Women are now being ordained as priests, pastors and ministers, while patriarchal references to the Almighty as "Father" are replaced with the gender-neutral "Parent." Jesus Christ is designated the "Child of God." The words of Scripture—perhaps, more accurately, the words of the apostle Paul—on this subject are seen today not as a divine revelation, but rather as an embarrassment from centuries past:

"Let the women keep silent in the churches, for they are not allowed to speak. Instead, they must, as the Law says, be in subordination. If they wish to learn something, let them inquire of their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church...let a woman learn quietly with complete submission. I do not allow a woman to teach, neither to domineer over a man; instead she is to keep still. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman, since she was deceived, experienced the transgression. She will, however, be kept safe through the child-bearing, if with self-control she continues in faith and love and consecration." (I Corinthians 14:34-35; I Timothy 2:11-15)

Many churches now claim these instructions were merely temporary frameworks used to build churches in the first century pagan world—they are not to be taken as universal absolutes for all eternity. If churches, Scripture and Christianity can adapt and be redefined or reinterpreted in a changing world to end injustices towards women, they can certainly do the same towards animals.

The International Network for Religion and Animals (INRA) was founded in 1985 by Virginia Bouraquardez. Its educational and religious programs are meant to "bring religious principles to bear upon humanity’s attitude towards the treatment of our animal kin...and, through leadership, materials, and programs, to successfully interact with clergy and laity from many religious traditions."

According to INRA:

"Religion counsels the powerful to be merciful and kind to those weaker than themselves, and most of humankind is at least nominally religious. But there is a ghastly paradox. Far from showing mercy, humanity uses its dominion over other animal species to pen them in cruel close confinement; to trap, club, and harpoon them; to poison, mutilate, and shock them in the name of science; to kill them by the billions; and even to blind them in excruciating pain to test cosmetics.

"Some of these abuses are due to mistaken understandings of religious principles; others, to a failure to apply those principles. Scriptures need to be fully researched concerning the relationship of humans to nonhuman animals, and to the entire ecological structure of Nature. Misinterpretations of scripture taken out of context, or based upon questionable theological assumptions need to be re-examined."

A growing number of Christian theologians, clergy and activists are beginning to take a stand in favor of animal rights. In a pamphlet entitled "Christian Considerations on Laboratory Animals," Reverend Marc Wessels notes that in laboratories animals cease to be persons and become "tools of research." He cites William French of Loyala University as having made the same observation at a gathering of Christian ethicists at Duke University—a conference entitled "Good News for Animals?"

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How the husband is SUPPOSED to "lead"
Posted by: truthlover on Feb 2, 2009 12:17 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
According to the apostle Paul, who himself seems to have had the most negative attitudes to women of all of them:

The husband is supposed to lead by LOVING his wife as Christ loved the church and GAVE HIMSELF FOR HER - in other words, the husband SHOULD be giving himself to the point of even death for his wife,
without retaliation,
without bearing a grudge,
forgiving everything,
never punishing,
and never putting his own interests first.

Since the husband is leading, the wife is following – therefore she is RESPONDING to his behavior. Now if a wife runs things past (submits to/goes along with) a husband whose attitude and behavior is always like that, do you think she will run into any problems?

So it seems to me that, IF a church imposes the “wives submit” rule, they need first to impose the “husbands love” rule.

IF they insist the wife submit without the husband loving, they are saying that the woman must LEAD. Right?

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is there more abuse in religious relationships??
Posted by: undrgrndgirl on Feb 2, 2009 12:19 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
i doubt it...

religion once again being used (and blamed)as an excuse for behavior that came BEFORE the religion. (roman patriarchy came before rome's christianity - and is the cause for female repression/subjugation) that MEN incorrectly interpret (translate) scripture for their own purposes is hardly surprising. i know plenty of secular/atheist men who think women are here to serve them. men who are abusive yet the women don't leave, not because of religious reasons, but because of economic ones. the economic reasons are also the result of male hegemony...just look at obama's stimulus plan with monies aimed at women in "traditional" female jobs as mothers, teachers and social workers...

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» Yes, except for meth households Posted by: westomoon
I SUBMIT THIS FOR YOUR APPROVAL
Posted by: sirios on Feb 2, 2009 12:53 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This wives submit rule is just another example of how the mind ,intellect, ego has misinterpreted ,to save it's own ass, the beauty of surrender to love ,essence Self, God, infinite compassion etc. It is the arrogant mind of mankind that is suppose to be submitting to the above , not the wife to her stupid moronic husband.

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REVRN
Posted by: jenvon on Feb 2, 2009 2:24 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am both a minister and a psychotherapist, and have found that many people who subscribe to that "submission" of women text, have some psychological issues with women, power and control, and their own poor self esteem. They use the Bible as a so called "legitimate" basis to do what they do. Those who want to say that the Bible says "wives submit to your husbands", conveniently omit the phrase that says "husbands love your wives as you love your own body... and as Christ loved the Church and gave his life for her." They also conveniently omit that passage of scripture that says "submit yourselves to one another in the fear of God." (Ephesians, Chapter 5) I say that people should read the whole context and then much of what is proposed as "Bible" is really a bunch of mess and self serving to keep one group of people (women) in bondage. I also wonder if a husband went the pastors and said that his wife was physically abusing him, beating him up, would those same pastors demand or require the man stay in such a marriage??????

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» RE: VRN Posted by: christianslayer1955
» RE: VRN Posted by: jw56
you get what you deserve...
Posted by: christianslayer1955 on Feb 2, 2009 2:28 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am not one bit sorry when i say that any woman who is stupid enough to fall for religion's tricks and lies deserve all she got coming.Religion,from it's beginning stages has always been a disgusting,vile,criminal,violent practice...Because of advanced education,it was forced to show some civility while still being filthy...What we are seeing right now is a return to the old ugly behavior patterns.The problem is not with humans;It is with religion.The book from which it draws it's ideas is so violent that children should never be allowed to open it...We pass laws designed to keep our children away from movies much less violent than what we find in the bible.I understand that many of us are introduced to the filth as babies but,there comes a time when you are able to reason and stop being a jerk.Even if there was a god,who in hell is another man or woman to tell me that he or she knows what this god wants?......
As the old saying goes,you lay down with dogs,you will wake up with fleas....Down with all religions and let love be the universal teachings...Catholic priests are a bunch of pedophiles...Christian preachers are a bunch of meth smoking,blow job giving liars,.......No wonder they beat their wives...They hate women.

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LOL
Posted by: xmvince on Feb 2, 2009 2:52 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I know it's not REALLY funny, but it doesn't make me feel bad one bit when reading this. It is the woman's choice to listen to the "heavenly pastor" and if she can't grow up and make her own decisions, then maybe the beat downs are only a small price to pay for not having any real responsibilities?

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» RE: LOL Posted by: J_Mo
GLF
Posted by: garyleefisher on Feb 2, 2009 4:14 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In response to the "religious" men who think that they are entitled to abuse their wife: Eph 5:25 states: "Husbands love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church and gave himself for it" For the Christian man, responsibility for living the principles as outlined by Jesus Christ in the sermon on the mount should begin in the home, with the wife. Any man who abuses his wife is NOT a peacemaker, is NOT merciful, is NOT meek, is NOT pure in heart, and is NOT righteous. In addition wife abuse is absolute VIOLATION OF THE GOLDEN RULE.
Wife abuse is a symtom of a person who does not have a heart for God or for man. Galations 5 states that the works of the flesh are hatred, variance and contentions, strife and selfishness, and wrath: Further on the text states that: "they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
The principles of loving relationships is found in that great love chapter, 1 Cor 13 just a few of these principles are as follows: "Love does not display itself haughtily. It is not conceited; it is not rude, and does not act unbecomingly. Love does not insist on its own rights or its own way, it is not self seeking, is not fretful or resentful, it rejoices when right and truth prevail, is ever ready to believe the best of every person.

A Christian in the home is a Christian anywhere and love for Christ should start and end in the home. Any man no matter how pious he may be in church and in public, who abuses his wife is sinner before God and will receive his portion with the hypcrites for indeed he is a hypocrite.

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marital abuse
Posted by: funboy on Feb 2, 2009 4:15 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wonder why the focus of the article is only on abused women? There are abused men as well. I am one of them. I have met many others. I spent many years as the abused person in a relationship with my ex. It was my faith and my church (catholic) that encouraged me to finally leave and gave me the strength and courage to do so. In fact two priests helped me come to this decision. I have met so many Catholics (men and women) that have left abusive (physical, mental, emotional) relationships and were helped through the transition by the church.

While these fundamentalist churches obviously take too literalist a view on matters of faith and marriage, it's been my experience that abuse IS an acceptable reason to end a marriage.

The author might have found this view had they looked a little further into it.

I think the fundamental problem is blind faith and not in God, but in the misguided teachings of some very misguided individuals.

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» RE: marital abuse Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield
How do you leave with a "quiver full"?
Posted by: westomoon on Feb 2, 2009 5:01 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When I saw this headline, I immediately thought of the "QuiverFull" movement within fundamentalist Xianity -- you know, the people who believe in having as many children as "God sends them", even if that means 18 or 20 of them. When I first heard of these people, I was appalled from a global-survival standpoint, but I can now see that it is also a way of imprisoning a person in a marriage forever.

Even if you have "only" six or eight children, how on earth could you leave your spouse? It's hard enough to escape a battering situation and start again from absolute zero when you only have yourself to look after. What can a woman with 18 children do but stay, no matter what her pastor may say? Even if you wanted to, would you be able to take her and her brood in?

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Not ALL religions follow this model
Posted by: GeoL on Feb 2, 2009 5:53 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Only the ones that emerge from that festering cesspit of patriarchal tribalism, the Middle East. All of the Great Religions of the Abrahamic tradition share the same tribal "us against the world (of unbelievers)" exclusivity, and the same need to dominate women and subordinate males (circumcision, anyone?).It's like watching a colony of Barbary apes given speech. And because it rewards dominant males, it's had their support for thousands of years.

When will the rest of us learn to walk away, and say "I'm not playing your game anymore."? There are humanistic and naturalistic beliefs out there for those who can get past the intimidation of the alpha monkeys.

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» RE: Not ALL religions follow this model Posted by: Mrs. Jefferson
I can't believe that Jesus ever condoned a man abusing anyone - wife, children, other men
Posted by: smadaj on Feb 2, 2009 6:43 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
God has nothing to do with these self-serving penis-worshiping idiots who think that what's between their legs gives them the right to rule over those with different sexual apparatus.

#$@!@$ing idiots make me sick, and telling a woman she has to submit to abuse because God wants her to is nothing short of evil.

A good friend had a cousin who married an evangelical maniac. As the years went by, the family saw this woman less and less frequently. The rest of the family did not have the opportunity to get to know her children. Then one day they learned that the head of the house had finally killed my friend's cousin, after years of beating the living daylights out of her and the kids (who he also molested) - while her pastor counseled her to try to be a better wife. He blamed her for being beaten, and he blamed her for the fact that her lunatic husband beat their children.

One of those kids committed suicide. Another is in prison for taking part in a gang rape of a nine-year-old child. The third is in a mental hospital. All in the name of God.

And the pastor who counseled this family? He's still preaching the same bullshit. The man is right, the man is the head, the woman must submit. If she is being beaten, it's because she is not doing her wifely duties properly.

This is so far from what I know God to be - LOVE - as to be beyond belief. Those who subscribe to the idea that God thinks it is okay for a man to abuse a woman are monsters and they should not have the opportunity to influence anyone's spiritual journey.

Uuugh, this whole thing just makes me shudder!

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abusedbypenguins
Posted by: abusedbypenguins on Feb 2, 2009 7:51 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In any library anywhere you will find a religion section in the nonfiction books. Why is this? Fairy tales and superstitious nonsence belong in the fiction section. Aesops Fables followed by bible followed by books by Steven King followed by koran followed by books by Ann Rice followed by torah. Religion is crap and there are giant heaps of it in various parts of our planet like Utah, South Carolina, Saudi Arabia, and the entire eastern shore of the Mediterranean

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Criminal Assaults for Jesus
Posted by: PaulK on Feb 2, 2009 8:58 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
At the time, the Gospels were feminist documents. Mary and Martha had rights to be among the learned. Taking a stand against stoning the adulteress was considered righteous and contrary to popular belief.

It's not Jesus that betrayed the prophets' dreams. It's a big bunch of latter day two-faced cowards of both genders who stand by in the churches as women are battered. In the Roman Catholic case, sometimes the cardinals cover up repeatedly as little girls and boys are sexually assaulted.

The moral of this story is that any set of beliefs, no matter how righteous, can attract social status-seekers who privately say to each other, "You don't actually believe any of this crap, do you?" Please differentiate between the beliefs and the creeps who parrot them.

As humans some of us learn that cruelty sometimes gets results. Bullying, both the physical kind and the blame game kind, cows people. It steals lunch money. While Jesus may have taught his followers to be completely poor, modern megachurches lay eternal damnation on people in order to steal bigtime lunch money for the church's owner. With such a basis for existence, no wonder the big churches are full of tough-fisted wife beaters. It's a natural extension of their psychological extortion mechanism.

This doesn't mean that you can't steal lunch money based on non-Christian ideals. EST was good at robbery through guilt-laying. Bernie Madoff was such a good practicing Jew to get $50B in investments. The Reverend Jim Jones loved communism. You name it, a con artist can somehow use it.

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The oldest profession is not prostitution.
Posted by: wisegalah on Feb 2, 2009 9:28 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is the priesthood, in whatever form it takes in various established religions.
If the clergy had not inserted themselves into the lives and consciences of individuals and thereby destroyed the personal integrity of believers, then there would be no prostitution, no violence against women and children.
So remember that prostitution and pornography are outgrowths of the mainstream religious systems.

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Biblically speaking,
Posted by: rickiey on Feb 3, 2009 5:56 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Spousal abuse is no excuse for divorce.

Of course, biblically speaking, forcible marriage is acceptable as well. God personally commanded Joshua to capture women and make them wives for their men.

In today's terms, thats called rape and slavery, but not in the bible.

So, if you want to live according to the bible, knock yourself right.

I live to a higher moral code; my own.

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» RE: Biblically speaking, Posted by: Mrs. Jefferson
This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.
It Ain't the Bible's Fault
Posted by: Adastra on Feb 3, 2009 7:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The real problem with these pious "Bible-believing Christians" is that they don't actually read the Bible, except for the parts they like. They simply skim the rest without troubling to think about what it says. Find an evangelical and you'll find someone who only quotes the verses that he believes support his prejudice, hatred and malice.

How often do you hear them quote from 1Cor., Chap 7? where, in v. 3, Paul tells us very clearly, "Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.

And in v. 4 again, "The wife hath not the power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise the husband hath not the power of his own body, but the wife."

This clearly shows that by New Testament standards, neither the husband nor the wife is considered superior to the other. And also that the wife as well as the husband has the right to "benevolence", kindness not cruelty, love rather than abuse.

But they don't read with any real attention the text they claim to follow . They read selectively and ignore any texts that fail to support their evil natures. In truth, those who believe they are "born again" are usually mistaken. In fact, the correct translation of the Greek is really "born from above", born of the holy spirit, which is certainly not the spirit of ignorance, cruelty and hatred. "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance, against such there is no law." (Gal. 5:22-23)

Now which of those terms excuses spousal abuse?

With love under will,

Bob, Adastra,
The Wizzard of Jacksonville

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Emotionally difficult article to read....Questions...
Posted by: Michel on Feb 3, 2009 9:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Several years ago I exited a marriage that phychologically...and in the end, physically abusive. It took me a few years to recover, empower myself and move on....now happily involved with the single most gentle man..ever.


What I still do not quite understand is ....whether religious or not inclined...why do some allow this to happen BEFORE marriage....?

What keeps us from leaving?

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Feminism
Posted by: Arlene on Feb 3, 2009 11:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am not surprised that the evangelical women are trying to construct a religion without feminism. I am also not surprised that religious women would tell their stories in this forum because the typical christian forum would not be helpful to them.

I read the Feminine Mystique by Betty Friedan when it first came out in the mid 60's and got involved in the women's movement in the early 70's. In addition to being called ugly man-hating lesbians, we were also "godless commies". Many of us were in fact, church-going wives and there was much discussion about whether feminists could reconcile their raised consciousness with their religios beliefs. While the main line protestant denominations and the catholic church supported certain aspects of it, no way was the catholic church going to approve of women using contraceptives and abortion or becoming priests. For all of the lip service to feminism, no way were the protestant men going to give up male privilege when push came to shove.

Other denominations simply institutionalized what had been largely until that time, unspoken sexism. Over time, it seemed to me to be a waste of my time, talent and treasure. Feminism simply can't be grafted on to christianity.

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Spiritual Abuse - one of the worst kinds of abuses
Posted by: oceansong on Feb 3, 2009 11:42 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This kind of religiously sanctioned abuse isn't just about domestic violence or family violence.
It is spiritual abuse.

To tell a wife that God allows you to abuse her; that she deserves it, and that God approves -- not only is that domestic abuse or sexual abuse -- it is spiritual abuse.

To tell a child that God approves of them being punished; that when they "misbehaved" that not only were they in trouble with their parents, but that they were also in trouble with God -- that is spiritual abuse.

I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian home. When my father flew into one of his rages and beat me or one of my siblings, he would tell us that God was angry with us. If we continued to disobey him (sometimes for irrational or petty offenses) - God would punish us; God would send us to hell; God told him it was OK to for him to whip us or hit us.

This took punishment and guilt for "being bad" to a new abusive level.
As an adult, it has taken me many years to find a way to be connected to my own spirituality. And even now, it is impossible for me to attend any conventional Christian service without having flashbacks.

It would have been much simpler to have had parents who just abused or beat me with out the spiritual abuse aspect.

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leftbank
Posted by: markw4786 on Feb 3, 2009 3:18 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Odd as it may seem, the Right Rev Warren's admonition, to stand by your man even when he beats the living Jesus out of you, represents CHANGE (a la Pres Obama). When I voted for SAME, I thought he was saying CHANGE. Can I take my vote back? Is it too late?
A vote for Nader would have been a waist of time. The question is was a vote for O similarly a waste?
I laugh at those who are celebrating or lamenting (it's a matter of perspective) the demise of the Republican Party. THEY DID NOT LOOSE...THEY'RE STILL IN CONTROL. When your political opposition is the Democratic Party, "lead" by Barack Obama, Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, et al and a band of ninnies posing as the party in the majority, you've won. WE ARE STILL CONTROLLED BY THE NEOCONS, THE REPUBLICANS, RUSH LIMGBAUGH. THERE IS NO OPPOSITION PARTY...REPUBLICANS RULE...LIVE WITH IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The reality: Barack Obama is intimidated by Republicans or is, at heart, a market oriented, moderate Republican.
It is incumbant on true patriots to start looking now for our options in 20012...O IS NOT OUR MAN...THERE'S NO FIGHT IN THOSE BONES.

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2 TIMOTHY CHPT 3 is a Goldmine!!! (v 1-5)
Posted by: crowd3r on Feb 3, 2009 7:14 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
For men shall be *lovers of their own selves, covetous, *boasters, *proud, *blasphemers, disobedient to parents, *unthankful, *unholy, *without natural affection, *truce breakers, *false accusers, *incontinent (lacking restraint regarding sexual matters), *Fierce (violent/agressive/angry), *despisers of those that are good, *traitors, *heady (impulsive/rash behavior), highminded, *lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; *Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof:(God's directive) From such TURN AWAY."

These character traits sum up most if not all of what makes an abusive man. The Bible instructs us to turn away from these types of people, so if you are in a church where the head is of a corrupt mind himself or allows others to conduct themselves in any of these ways it is time to pack up and leave and take anyone else with you that will hear the truth!

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Submit?
Posted by: politicky on Feb 3, 2009 10:29 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nope. A cast iron skillet works long enough to get out of Dodge.

They gotta sleep sometime.

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Why not leave?
Posted by: TheLimit on Feb 3, 2009 11:22 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article was really about spousal abuse, not about religion. The religious aspect is only part of the thing; it is certainly possible to be abused by a spouse with no religious beliefs complicating the thing at all. And it's true, abused spouses (and even abused fiancé(e)s) hang about much longer than might be thought reasonable.

So .. why is that?

The bottom line answer is that the culture itself actively supports spousal abuse. I would have argued the other side when I was younger and hadn't thought the thing through, but the truth is, even in these 'enlightened' times since women have been liberated, the culture itself does not make it simple for women (who are more commonly the targets) to leave. Even now, the culture supports marriage for women, and for married women, children, and once a woman is married and has children, the greater society doesn't want any part of her. It doesn't want to know about abused husbands either, as I think a male poster or two here will agree.

Yes, I know we have shelters now for the abused. Almost all of them are over crowded and underfunded and there aren't enough of them. The part of society willing to rescue abused spouses is far too small to have a real impact on the problem, or we wouldn't have this article to discuss. The reality is that if abused spouses had somewhere to go, they'd go, and they would encourage others to follow them.

As it stands, there are not only inadequate resources for spouses escaping abuse, there is also still, though it is hard to believe, stigma attached to the escapee.

I've given this a lot of thought over the years, and I've concluded that unless the greater society truly commits to an end to domestic violence, it will continue. And by that I don't mean that 'someone' has to do 'something' about it; I mean that we need a whole different paradigm, a totally different mindset. Until we have that, abrahamistic religions (was that what they were called upthread?), at their worst, will support and foster spousal abuse, for all the reasons cited by those who have been victims of those cults.

Women in Western Society have a long way to go before they are truly 'liberated'. What happened to them in the '70s was not liberation, it was a matter of them being knocked down to corporate industry as a cheap labor source. Women are worse off now probably than any time since the dark ages.

If you want abused spouses to leave their abusers, you have to give them a better place to go, and make it easy for them to get there. Traumatized, battered, terrified people don't need more challenges, they need comfort and safety.

This society isn't it.

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» RE: Yes, I know we have shelters. Posted by: Sister_Lauren
All I can say is...
Posted by: J_Mo on Feb 4, 2009 12:10 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm very thankful to lay in the lap of the Goddess. Pagan women don't need loopholes.

Pagan snark aside, I am truly glad that there are women within that culture working to help victims of domestic violence to escape their situations. I hope that many, many women will be saved.

That said, what loving God would put Its children in a position where they'd ever question their own inner guides?

I'll never get Christianity. That's why I converted.

~J-Mo

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» RE: All I can say is... Posted by: TheLimit
» RE: Blessed Be Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: All I can say is... Posted by: lorenbliss
An Observation
Posted by: rickiey on Feb 5, 2009 11:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Women who were abused by their first husbands, turn out the be the best wives for their second (presuming of course, that they don't marry abusive again).

Its merely a trend that I've noticed, and it makes me wonder why.

I guess perhaps the type of woman who is a good person, loyal, hard-working, and intelligent is the target of the assholes? I don't know, but it does make me wonder.

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» RE: An Observation Posted by: TheLimit
» RE: An Observation Posted by: Sister_Lauren
Abrahamic Religion Is Intrinsically Murderous
Posted by: lorenbliss on Feb 5, 2009 8:31 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Historically speaking, Abrahamic religion -- Judaism, Christianity, Islam -- completes the theological, political and socioeconomic overthrow of humanity's first deity, the so-called Great Goddess, and replaces her with the male god variously named Yehveh/Jesu/Allah. The associated revolution, ultimate proof ideas have consequences, ended forever the consensualist, collectivist, environmentalist mode of human society in which H. sapiens sapiens evolved.

This now vanished society ranged from rustic tribal cultures on every continent to the height of urban sophistication evident at Knossos and Thera. Its common core was reverence for nature’s intrinsic motherhood, whether physically (the female in all her biological forms) or metaphysically (the goddess said to have given birth to the cosmos and thus titled “Mother of All Being,” as, to parody Genesis, “in the beginning was the Mother and she gave birth”). Indeed Knossos is increasingly recognized as the true apex of human civilization: the total evacuation of Callisté in the face of volcanic threat c. 1600 BCE -- not only all humans (at least 25,000 and possibly 10 times that), but all pets, livestock and moveable goods -- is a feat so far beyond modern grasp that its discovery a few years ago was quickly hushed up to minimize damning comparisons. But even before the findings at Callisté (today’s Santorini), it was becoming undeniable Knossos represents the very best our species will ever achieve.

The same lost ethos ensured human survival for at least 100,000 years. It inspired Stonehenge and prompted similar structures around the globe. That its destruction requires repeated genocide -- a process continuing to this day -- proves how infinitely subversive its values remain in the eyes of our rulers. Thus tyranny replaced consensus; egotistical greed replaced collectivism, open war on the environment replaced compliance with the mandates of nature and -- precisely to ensure the perpetual revolution implicit in the goddess-symbol is stifled forever -- femaleness itself was dragged from the sacred epicenter of being, then raped, beaten and flung into garbage-dump obscenity. In a mere 4,000 years, such despotism has reduced us to what we are today: a hopelessly doomed species.

Abrahamic religion's innermost function is the preservation of that oppression -- the ultimate fulfillment of patriarchal ideology: “god’s chosen men” ruling via theocracy and fascism. While the ultimate symbolic foe of Abrahamic religion remains the goddess, her earthly representative -- her physical and metaphysical embodiment -- is woman: woman the source of life, woman the enviably multi-orgasmic, woman with whom physical union was anciently reckoned the ultimate spiritual ecstasy, woman the consummate symbol of the environment. Hence the abuse of women is the very core of Abrahamic religion. The physical and psychological battering that includes even clitoral amputation and other grotesque forms of genital mutilation ensures the continued suppression of the one subversion the ruling class fears even more than Marxism: the undying human impulse toward resurrection of all that was symbolized by the goddess. Note for example the unprecedented speed with which the ruling class co-opted feminism.

Given that fundamentalism is most faithful expression of Abrahamic core values, it follows that -- though all Abrahamic males are conditioned to be savage (note how the capitalist aristocracy has elevated maximum greed to ultimate virtue) -- the fundamentalist males are conditioned to be the most savage of all. But they are also the most honest about Abrahamic purpose. Note the reader-board of a bible-thump church: “ORGANIC IS SATANIC”; on the opposite side, “ENVIRONMENTAL MEANS OF THE DEVIL.” A few weeks earlier it had proclaimed, “WOMEN’S LIB PROVES SATAN‘S NO FIB.” I rest my case.

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Opium of the people?
Posted by: Mrs. Jefferson on Feb 6, 2009 6:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Karl Max said that religion was the opium of the people.

It is used to silence us.

Religion is back in Russia big time in their time of finanical crisis and loss of democracy (if they ever had it). Fascism is corporate power. The division of rich and poor seen there now like in S. America...America, Britain, etc.

The churches today with their huge wealth and power are like corporate organizations. They want into our government for their own agenda (which is against democracy since their clergy decide what is good for us).

As we celebrate Lincoln's birtday we should remember he told the evengelicals of the time not to ask what God can do for them but what could they do for God. That shut them up. They don't belong in government since democracy can not function with them as "deciders".

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"Christian" husbands battering their "Christian" wives...
Posted by: skeptical inquirer on Feb 6, 2009 12:04 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here is one more reason it makes sense to be an atheist.

An atheist woman doesn't have to tolerate battering from any man for any reason.

While you Christian women are busy "submitting" to your spouses and tolerating abuse as part of wifely duties and obligations as a Christian woman, we atheist women are relaxed. Maybe we'll be taking a nap now or be reading a book or having a nice, humane rational chat with our atheist husbands. Doesn't the freedom sound enticing? Doesn't it sound like a life with less stress and pressure? We actually live life.

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mlhthinking
Posted by: mlhthinking on Feb 7, 2009 7:42 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This Biblical thinking is not only the domain of conservative, evangelical churches but it subtly permeates the thinking and behavior of our society as a whole. We need to look at fathers who play a part in raising daughters to expect this submissiveness and abuse. These men take the thought of "protecting" their daughters to the expectation of total control and submissiveness to the father. Note: In the article, the father selected the husband for the daughter. There are many benign situations that lead to overt abuse. If the father believed in "protecting" the daughter, one of the questions he needed answered before giving her into a selected marriage would be "will this man love, honor and respect my daughter?" but he was incapable of asking this question because of his biblical limitations. Second scenario: Men who were raised in the church who may not attend church as adults but still are influenced "by the male is superior mentality and women are objects of submission."

I am a Christian but I do not take the Bible literally because too often I have seen and experienced situations allowing men to justify abusive (verbal, emotional, physical) behavior with biblical scripture. And the women are blamed for not being submissive enough. The popular refrains are: "If only she kept her mouth shut." "She drove me to hit her" "If she only would cook what I like" or "if she only obeyed the Lord I would not have to treat her this way."

Or the worse situation is when other women pressure the abused mother, wife, daughter, sister to submit because of biblical justification. WE in many situations are our own worse enemy.

As a society, we have let too many men off the hook with lousy excuses for their behavior. We all need to take responsiblity and be our brother's/sister's keepter. Not until as a society that we are honest with each other and respect each other as a human being on this earth will we end abuse.

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Illegal
Posted by: Red State Gal on Feb 10, 2009 8:51 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The last I looked, domestic violence was illegal in the United States. That means that these Christian husbands are lawbreakers, punishable by the law. Lawbreakers cannot be good Christians, for Christians are to support legitimate government and obey the law of the land. Therefore, these violent, lawbreaking husbands are not Christians. They are criminals. And pastors who excuse them are condoning illegal behavior. I think that encouraging illegal behavior makes you ineligible to be a pastor under current laws forbidding the advocacy of violent crime from the pulpit under post-9-11 laws, doesn't it?

I agree with an earlier poster--it's time to bring out the lawyers and get some of these bigwig pastors!

Though I am not sure anyone is interested, there is a fundamentalist Christian sect that will excommunicate any man shown to perpetrate domestic violence, and this sect furthermore says explicitly that women are not to submit to their husbands; rather, women and men are to treat each other as absolute equals. And that the word "helpmeet" means "one equal in power to help," and not "subordinate." And that the correct translation of "and he shall rule over you" is actually "and he shall rule with you." If you are interested, email me.

RedStateGal
RedStateFeminists

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