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Obama's Small Concession to Atheists Sets off a Firestorm of Debate

By Tana Ganeva, AlterNet. Posted January 30, 2009.


The author of our recent piece calling out Obama for all the references to God at the inauguration responds to AlterNet readers.

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In an inaugural filled with historic firsts, Barack Obama also broke with tradition and polite political conversation by acknowledging that atheists are people, too.  

Obama's nod to non-believers, tacked to the end of a more standard salute to multiculturalism and religious diversity, came as somewhat of a surprise: after all, his predecessor basically tried to relaunch the Crusades, and atheists remain one of the most reviled groups in America.

At the same time, Obama's unprecedented recognition of non-believers came in the midst of a ceremony overflowing with God stuff: from pastor Rick Warren intoning, "Almighty God, our father, everything we see and everything we can't see exists because of you alone," to the Rev. Joseph Lowery's closing benediction, which thanked God for the "empowering of thy servant, our 44th president ... "

And USA Today points out that Obama made more references to God in his speech than Ronald Reagan did at his inauguration(!).

In an article recently published on AlterNet, Greta Christina decries the use of religious language and imagery in state ceremonies like the Inauguration, pointing out:

" … when presidents and other official representatives of our country and our government insist that this is God's country, the implicit -- if unintentional -- message is that, if you don't believe in God, this is not your country.
Screw that.

AlterNet readers had a lot to say about Christina's article, so we asked her to respond to your thoughts on politics, religion and atheism. Take a look at Christina's response to your comments at the bottom of this piece.

Many commenters agree with Christina's article, pointing out that religion has no place in government ceremonies in a nation founded on the separation of church and state.

Chance garden writes:

Why do the prayers of a church belong in the single most important ceremony of our state? The simple answer is, prayers do not belong. Period. End of story.

Seppoyank argues that religious belief is personal and should not be imposed on others:

Watching the inauguration was like watching GodTV. I don't care what other people believe. Can't they just shut up about it for a little while?

I'm a second-generation atheist, and I don't run around telling everyone how they need to develop a personal understanding that there is no higher power that is going to save them from anything. I don't do it. Why? Because it is rude. And it is my belief, not anyone else's.

Deepseas also writes that faith should not be forced on non-believers:

I have a problem when we think we have to prove to others we are religious and have faith. In other words, the need to prove that we are good animals.

I agree that religion and prayer has no place in government. It implies that those without a religion, faith or who do not wear it on their sleeves are not acceptable.

Having grown up in the church and graduated from a Christian university, I do not find it necessary to attend church or preach to others what my beliefs and faith are. It's personal.

It is our actions that tell others where our faith is, and they can see that. Everything else is just words to convince others.

jreinhart1 points out that our politicians' need to trumpet their religious beliefs goes against the vision of the Founding Fathers:

The writers of our Constitution and government were not the outward hypocrites of today and fought against empire in their thoughts, words and deeds. This is the best reason to leave specific faiths out of government and why the Constitution was written as it was. Today's "leadership" and population are nothing but hypocrites to the faiths they profess and the reason why the founders wanted religion out of government. It is a personal decision by each person, not a national decision to be blanketed over everyone as casually and hypocritically as is done today.


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Tana Ganeva is an assistant editor at AlterNet.

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Show- Don't Tell
Posted by: NoPCZone on Jan 30, 2009 12:42 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a recovering theist, now agnostic, I really think the prayer bit is way over the top. If Obama wants to pray, fine. Otherwise, everyone else needs to can it.

As to the free advertising for the Profit-Driven-Life Pastor, he can buy his own advertising on his own dime...

It amazes me that in this country where almost 50 million do not have health care, veterans sleep under overpasses, children go hungry, elderly choose between heat and food, gay people are still second-class citizens, hate-mongering is still tolerated and all the rest that we can't have a Little League game without some idiot invoking god by someone's definition. It angers me that the same people professing to be the exclusive holders of absolute truth seem determined to ram it down our throats rather than sell it based upon merit.

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» RE: It's not censorship Posted by: Crazy H
Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.
» If there was a God... Posted by: SolarSiStar
» RE: If there was a God... Posted by: NoPCZone
» It's about lighting fires Posted by: pete ess
On prayer in public ceremonies
Posted by: chance garden on Jan 30, 2009 2:37 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...What bothers me is the whole bow your head, and remain silent while some religio entreats "the deity"...this is just plain spooky...it makes me feel like I'm part of some strange national cult...who knows maybe we all are: the America Cult...

...I keep thinking if THEY only knew who or what they were praying to on our behalf, I might not be offended by the whole charade...

...but I know that that deep down inside they also have NO IDEA what they are praying to...

...while their faith may be sincere, the target of their prayers (god) is simply NOT THERE...it's meaningless, inane, might as well be saying..."Our bla bla, who art in bla bla, bla bla be thy name, thy bla bla come, thy bla be done, on bla bla...as it is in bla bla"

...Surely, I am not the only one who knows this...It just simply isn't true...there is no one on the other end of phone line that is listening to the prayer...

...How difficult is that for americans to understand? At best it is wishful thinking.

But wishing and hoping isn't going to make our troubles disappear. If our leaders lack the courage to acknowledge basic reality...why would I want these people leading the country?

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Insult away
Posted by: notabilia on Jan 30, 2009 2:52 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While not exactly a "firestorm," this was fun. However, I think that supernaturalist religion commands great sociological power in this country, and as it is the foundation for so much aided suffering, violence, and harmful inaction, it deserves all the insults. That said, "believers," or whatever they want to call themselves, should feel free, in spaces like these, to insult right back. What's wrong with our true feelings? As much as the lobby-pressure induced shout-out is an achievement, Obama is still a faith-based corporate militarist.

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The Buddhist Way
Posted by: BST on Jan 30, 2009 4:40 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have been a practicing (that is, I am part of a sangha or community) Buddhist for 15 years and have never criticized the beliefs of anyone else. Why would I? My life is about focusing on what I believe -- or don't -- not on trying to control or denigrate other people.

My own experience -- and that's all it is -- is that those who believe in God are far more apt to criticize others, than are non-believers.

Let's face it: Human beings love to argue over everything, anger is easy, rudeness is cheap and this is what guides all our discussions these days on every subject.

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Give us what we expect - for a change!
Posted by: 2thepoint on Jan 30, 2009 4:45 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If one cares to look around, maybe 10 -15% of the nation are nonbelievers. Since the majority are believers and the majority are Christians, it is only fitting that the President mention god and say Christian prayers - the majority of the nation demands it - after all the majority elected Obama.

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» Very well put, Prophit Posted by: NWCrow
» True enough Posted by: NWCrow
» Courts gone wild! Posted by: 2thepoint
» Puritan Christian values Posted by: NWCrow
Equating atheism with a religious denomination is a category mistake
Posted by: Jasonix on Jan 30, 2009 4:55 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Atheism is not a "thing" the same way that "Methodism" is thing. Atheism is a word we use to describe the denial or absence of a particular belief - secular humanism, existentialism, nihilism, LeVay Satanism, and all sorts of "isms" and philosophies fall under the heading "atheism."

Events like inaugurations are designed to represent various communities in America. There is no "atheist" community to be represented. If they want to be represented, they need to identify themselves according to the beliefs that they positively assert to be true - I'd have no problem with a member of a Humanist society offering a poem or reflection at the inauguration events. But you can't just call yourself an "atheist" and expect to get a call-out. We don't usually recognize "non-Buddhists," "non-Jews," "non-Hindus," etc. as such. We recognize them as Christians, Muslims, or by whatever beliefs they positively hold. The same standard should apply to atheists.

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» FINAL & PROBLEMATIC 'BELIEFS' Posted by: americansheep
Democracy can be an aggravating thing
Posted by: peacelf on Jan 30, 2009 5:06 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the U.S. the majority rules, and the majority of americans, like it or not, are religious, mostly Christian. There may come a day when that changes, but I don't think it matters. Anyway, it's behavior, culture and values that matter, not religions.

I heard the likes of atheists like Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, and many of the angry posters on Alternet who can be just as frightening as right wing Christians.

It is the human heart that needs changing, and any tunnel vision from any particular ideology (or lack thereof) must change, and everyone must broaden their perspectives and do the hard work it takes to reach out and understand each others differences.

Peace

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The Presidency is a SECULAR position, not a religious one.
Posted by: wal55 on Jan 30, 2009 5:13 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I keep hearing the claim that 15% of the population is composed of non-believers. I assume that means the remainder state a belief in some version of a deity (not necessarily the same version), but I have to wonder: what percentage of those individuals would have noticed ON THEIR OWN if there had been no mention of a deity in the ceremony? What percentage of the population would loudly condemn the new administration for not recognizing THEIR deity?

I recall noticing when I was a child that only a small percentage of our church's membership showed up for Sunday services. While many of my classmates came for an occasional Sunday school class, they disappeared from church activities once they had gone through confirmation class. I realize this is speculation, but I suspect many of them were simply hedging their bets by becoming Christian in name only; they can now be counted among the 85% who claim a belief in a deity (whether they do or not), but to what extent is that number meaningful?

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» You're half right Posted by: Beck
The peace of silence
Posted by: BST on Jan 30, 2009 5:23 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Really, the most expansive and inclusive way to embrace the diversity of the country would be to simply offer a five-minute period of silence with encouragement to contemplate, each in our own way, a more peaceful and bountiful future for all.

Silence is incredibly powerful when practiced amid the chaos and din of our modern life.

This approach becomes problematic not because of atheists but because many Christians, in particular, insist on invoking God aloud.

This country could avoid conflicts over wording by growing more comfortable with the joy of silent prayer or contemplation.

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» RE: The peace of silence Posted by: Aureantes
Harping away as usual
Posted by: peterpiano on Jan 30, 2009 6:25 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We have this preoccupation to talk a lot about
the business of religion in politics and the ideal was to leave it out of political discourse and since we have freedom of speech
it has way of popping its head up all the time even as if it didn't exitst smoldering in the backbround of the American psyche. We just don't like non believers or godless people and also the ones who believe in another god or deity. So, we come to blows and have our squabbles and wars over the lunacy of religious claims that are tuly bogus to some but others take them seriously and are willing to die and kill the other over it.
The Founding Fathers sounds like the old Patriarchs were trying to set things right as they were products of the Enlightenment which ]had contempt for the church and religious authority along with the Monarchs and Divine Right of Kings which fomented the cause for
the Revolution.
Now we have a world that is suffering from the obsolete notions that are beholden to the righteous who call the shots, speak louder than others and throw the bombs on each other to see who will come out alive believing that god gave them some special dispensation to allow for this behavior.
War and Religion are one and the same as they go together and rule the body politic to
follow along with the game of eliminating the ones who are against you. Its either them or us thinking and the stakes are raised higher everyday. Religion and God belief (believing
your god is the only one and the righteous one)
entitles you to the real estate and coveting the neighbors property and if he resists take it as god says it is all good to do even if you have to kill him in the process. Well, we all know how mistaken this notion is and the legacy of the last century is testimony to that with the escalation of violence and whole sale murdet killing the "Other" and we are certainly good at it.
Interesting to note that I got call from an Army recruiter looking for my son, but he is now in Texas trying to find solutions for alternative energy from the sun and other sources. I said you are not looking for since I ddi my time for God and Country and my son is not intersted in joinging up and continuing more or the same you can bet on it. I was unfortunately told as a young man that we have to beat those godless communists at their game before the take over the world. God always played games withthe ones who believe or don't and I don't give damn anymore about belief how about good old wholsome no beliefs and keep the doubt going as I have my doubts about the deluded individuals who think that they are going to be saved by divine intervention while others will suffer the consequences if they do not cow tow to the big sky god they put so much credence in.
I think the president should have invited the Dalai Lama , the Pope , a Rabbi, and Mullah to the party and everyone would get their chance to say what they have to say as this is a democracy isn't it. Oh I forgot there are some mystics out there along with Shamans, Yogis, Hindus, Shinto, Zen and the cult members of
Scientology, Christian Science and far too many to mention. Maybe we should as Walt Whitman to come back from the dead and make statement of amendment to his Democratic Vistas.

Peter Tarsio
peter@nwcmta.com

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Oh please...**rolls eyes**
Posted by: Duncable on Jan 30, 2009 6:30 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think you people need to get a little persepctive. Being upset about this issue says more about where you stand on your lack of faith that you can't deal with religious people being **gasp!!** religious than it does about how they may or may not view you.

Obama is a Christian, just like every other president was a Christian (no matter how devout or superficial their faith), and if he wants prayers in his inaugural ceremony, so be it.

I'm not religious myself (you could call me a spiritual agnostic Buddhist if you really had to lable me), but I don't think that the seperation of church and state means you have to divorce yourself from your deep-seeded religious beliefs at all times; that's down right unreasonable. It means that Mormons in Utah can't tell me what to do with my body, and homophobes can't tell me who to marry. It means that atheists have the same legal and civil rights as Episcopals and Catholics and Muslims and Buddhists and Humanists, and as far as I can tell, that is the case. (Sure there are people working to change this, but I don't see Obama as one of those, and I don't see it happening anytime soon, or ever for that matter; Obama is inclusive, he is reasonable, and he sees the beauty in diversity.)

So get over yourselves, please, and realize that there are a lot of other greater injustices in the world than Obama professing his faith to the nation. (Rick Warren was certainly a bad choice, considering his divisive views, but as far as bad choices go, it barely registers in my book. Its not like he appointed the guy to his cabinet as Undersecretary of Faith or any similar nonsense, he just asked him to read a prayer and a ceremony where there are always prayers read.)

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» Getting perspective Posted by: NWCrow
» RE: Getting perspective Posted by: Duncable
» RE: Oh please...**rolls eyes** Posted by: Duncable
privilege is invisible
Posted by: lewb on Jan 30, 2009 6:34 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The people who believe in God have the privilege of not being criticized just because they believe in God. Being an atheist is to be criticized because the majority believes it's right just because it's the majority. No one who is a Christian or a Jew or Muslim has that term associated with them unless it is related to their
belief in God. If a person who decided to run for president of the United States was an atheist,he would be villified for being an atheist,regardless of how qualified he or she might be. A person of religious belief would not be villified just for being a religious believer.

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» RE: privilege is invisible Posted by: Duncable
» RE: privilege is invisible Posted by: Duncable
I think she gave an excellent response with only one error.
Posted by: Prophit on Jan 30, 2009 6:39 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But its one that is common... and that is the "separation of Church and state", which is not in the Constitution. I am not one of those Bible thumping religionists... but I am a Constitution thumping constitutionalist.

What the Constitution says, is that "...the state shall make no law prohibiting.....that is what it says, no where in there does it say Church and state shall be separated. You have the right to assemble, to free speech and to redress of greivances as well as freedom of the press..

We are already losing many of our rights and when we as a people begin advocating losing even more due to the "subject matter", then we are saying its ok to ban freedom of speech if we agree with the subject matter.... I do not agree with that.

However, she was absolutely right in her response that she has the right to disagree with those of us who said, "let them do what they want, they have the right to freedom of speech" and she does.... good argument....

I just have a right to disagree with how she wishes to prevent others from speaking, but I would fight to the death of her right to say it.

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» I have to disagree . . . Posted by: dustdevil
» RE: I have to disagree . . . Posted by: Prophit
» RE: I have to disagree . . . Posted by: dustdevil
I bet they're fibbing!
Posted by: Grandma Crabby on Jan 30, 2009 6:40 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If 15% are non-believers that means 85% believe.

OK, cynical me says I bet a lot of them are fibbing. I bet you a zillion dollars that a lot of people SAY they believe because they do not want to be ostracized but in reality they don't buy it.

If they truly believed, they would act better. If they truly believed they would burn in hell for ETERNITY they wouldn't have that affair. They wouldn't gossip, they wouldn't rip off their neighbor. If they truly believed they were going to heaven they would not be afraid to die. They would probably WANT to die.

Since atheists are some of the most hated people in America, any SMART person would just lie about it, knowing full well that no God will sit in judgement of that lie but that a lot of people would sit in judgement if they told the truth.

Yup, we got a lot of closet atheists out there folks, you can bet on it. Oh wait! Gambling is a sin. Better not then!

Granny's crazy videos = Go get a chuckle!

Luv,
Granny

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» RE: You bet they're fibbing! Posted by: americansheep
» As Ted Rall said... Posted by: NWCrow
» RE: I bet they're fibbing! Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: I bet they're fibbing! Posted by: BlueSun
Dismissing atheists is perfectly religious
Posted by: artifax on Jan 30, 2009 6:41 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The "shutup" mentality and dismissal of atheism by religionists is perfectly representative of what's wrong with religion and of its dangers. The viewing of a class of people as not mattering or second class – i.e., dehumanizing them – is behind a lot of wars they've supported.

So it's perfectly in character to hear that here.

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Evangelists vs The Octuplets
Posted by: Lilly on Jan 30, 2009 7:12 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have seen several articles lately on Conservative websites about how they can manage a resurgance into political power, and even from the inside they are being criticized for trying so hard to put their religious issues into public policy. One of their chronically hot issues is babies eg abortion, family planning, and the child-hating Democrats. Another Conservative issue is, of course, the spending of public money. So take a look here: morning news informs us that the mother of this week's octuplets is a) "quite young"; 2) a single mother living with her own parents; 3) already the mom of 8 kids---now she has 14. There's more: she deliberately sought this pregnancy, which doctors say almost certainly resulted from fertility treatment, and she had the fertilized embryos implanted. She refused advice to selectively terminate some of the embryos. The birth required 46 doctors and 4 delivery rooms. Birth weight of the babies is 1-2 pounds so they will all be on the NICU for some time to come. It will be fascinating to see whether this case is even mentioned on Conservative websites (well, actually it already is since I've mentioned it on townhall.com) and how they rationalize their hatred of public spending with their love of getting babies born irresponsibly. And I'm not even going there re the emotional life of a young woman who would pursue this course, or the ethical life of the OB-GYN who facilitated it.

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More religion bullshit misused by pols to cover up their real plans !
Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield on Jan 30, 2009 7:32 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So how's all that false hope and chump change out there?

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Religion IS the problem
Posted by: The Profit on Jan 30, 2009 9:17 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Imaginary friends are for children and schizophrenics.

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» RE: eligion IS the problem Posted by: DaBear
» RE: eligion IS the problem Posted by: BlueSun
Yet the godders see our $$$$ as equal.lol
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN on Jan 30, 2009 9:26 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am neither paranoid or feel powerless in my America.
We have read so much of the religiomatic's drivel here, including us being told to "shut up" that, it doesn't carry ANY weight whatsoever.
I would like to have invited the kneejerker god freaks to join me in my old foxhole in Nam.
Some of those who talk with imaginary beings~~and actually think they're being heard and answered(lol)~~don't have the ability to form their own thoughts and would be very surprised to learn that THERE ARE atheists in foxholes.
Most of them wouldn't have the balls to be there in the first place.
After all, their "hero" hid behind a bar in Ala while we REAL AMERICANS were over there.

As an atheist, my life is basically uncluttered and happy.
I have none of their neurotic, insecure complusion to attempt to force my ways on them.
They clearly have an OCD with this.
It's as if they MUST legitimize their religiomatic fantasies by conning others into "believing" it.

Well, what I DO see in my toast slices is butter.

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» I also forgot to ask..... Posted by: Prophit
Laughable. I want representation for crew-cut folks...
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Jan 30, 2009 9:38 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...as a measure of diversity.

And Hawaiian t-shirts.

And a pony! (hat-tip to JH)

In a representative democracy such as our republic, you try to meander the nation forward and respect the basic human right of everyone.

I don't feel all that "special", differing with ALL your superstitions (national health care, atheism, creationism, the solvency of social security for my kids, etc.) so why should other people stoop to my level in their personal belief structures in a representative democracy?

Nope. Beliefs are important for a republic. Sorry, my fellows.

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Go Greta.
Posted by: DaBear on Jan 30, 2009 10:46 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I didn't hear the inaugural speech portion where the "non-believers" were mentioned the same way Greta did and in the comments of the original piece I shared that. I felt insulted by the "non"-ing, the othering of aethists. It was a slap in the face, clearly unintended but a gut-punch is one whether you mean for it to be or not.

I wholeheartedly agree with Greta's followup in this summation-response piece. It's our duty to act up and speak up against anti-atheist bigotry, especially when it's the core statement of a state ceremony or function.

Reading the commentary above merely reinforces that responsibility. I'm sick and tired of "majority" Xtians whining about their special victim status while they abuse everyone else. I'm sick of it. Especially sick of it on a progressive forum such as Alternet, where listening to the Other is supposed to be a core value. I don't tolerate bigotry from fellow deistic Jews and I won't tolerate it from Xtians either (or ANYONE). It's crap and it should stop. Xtians should have learned by now, the more you try to crush us under you jackboot, the louder we're gonna yell. Deal with that.

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» RE: Go Greta. Posted by: cmaciain
pathetic
Posted by: hms2004 on Jan 30, 2009 11:15 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think it's pathetic how much these Christians have to try to affirm their belief in their god. We get it, you believe in god, jesus, the bible and all that stuff, but why can't you just shut up and keep it to yourself? Hypocrites, instead of wasting time why don't you go help feed the poor or do some good deeds? Isn't that what your Jesus was all about?

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» RE: pathetic Posted by: cmaciain
hear hear
Posted by: wonderpulp on Jan 30, 2009 11:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you really do believe in 'democracy', believer or not, you should, by definition, be %100 for the separation of Church and State. The opposite being a Theocracy and the last time I checked, we don't have one of those. If you put all your personal grievances aside, it's pretty simple to understand.

What's sad is that there are a lot more atheists than anyone can document but because of Religious bigotry, they remain 'closet atheists' or pretend to be religious just to get/stay ahead in the world. I think that %15 is a pretty conservative estimate.

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» So the UK is not a democracy? Posted by: suprmark
the Perfect Song
Posted by: philosimphy on Jan 30, 2009 11:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the glory of the atom
begs a reverent word
the primary design
of the whole universe
yes, let us sing its praises
let us bow our heads in prayer
at the magnificent consciousness
incarnate there

the smallest unit of matter
with its orbiting electrons
echoing off the solar system
like a hawk in the hills at dawn
the smallest unit of matter
uniting bird and rock and tree
and you and me

oh holy is the atom
the truly intelligent design
to which all of evolution
is graciously aligned
the one single structure
to which everything distills
the air
the wood smoke there
and the hills

leave me here surrounded
by everything that's real
far outside the boundaries
of the digitized ordeal
leave me here awake
leave me here to heal

human beings are a cross
between monkeys and ants
you can see us from your spaceship
melting the polar ice caps
with our arrogance
summon a congress of angels
dressed in riot gear
we got ourselves a serious situation
down here

i have this great great uncle
who worked on the atomic bomb
he got a nobel prize in physics
and a place in this song
and i bet there were no windows
and no women in the room
when they applied themselves
to the pure science of
boom

yes, messing with the atom
is the highest form of blasphemy
whether you are making weapons
or simple electricity
someone fashion me a pulpit
i have been called to engage
with the maniacal heretics
of the nuclear age

let the religious get religion
let consumers get a clue
let scientists get perspective
let activists get their due
let industry get a conscience
let the earth inherit the meek
let the divinity of nature speak

the glory of the atom
begs a reverent word
the primary design
of the whole universe
yes, let us sing its praises
let us bow our heads in prayer
to the magnificent consciousness
incarnate there

-by ani difranco

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» RE: the Perfect Song Posted by: poetac
Talkin' 'bout Religion and Politics
Posted by: BlueSun on Jan 30, 2009 12:17 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There should be no place for religion in politics and visa versa. In fact, the federal religious tax exemption requires religious institutions that benefit from it to refrain from mixing in political activities (not that anybody enforces it).

Consider what Reverend Doctor Bird Wilson said in a speech in 1831,

"The founders of our nation were nearly all Infidels, and that of the presidents who had thus far been elected [Washington; Adams; Jefferson; Madison; Monroe; Adams; Jackson] not a one had professed a belief in Christianity...Among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion...

Note that Reverend Wilson was the leading Episcopalian minister in America in the post-Founding era and the son of Founding Father James Wilson (signer of the Declaration of Independence, member of the Continental Congress, a major participant in drafting the Constitution, and one of the original justices appointed to the Supreme Court by Washington).

Most of our Founding Fathers were agnostics, atheists (Jefferson in particular), Deists, and the occasional Unitarian . Deists, though they believe in a "Creator" who created the Earth and then withdrew, do not accept Christianity, Jehovah, churches, prayer, Christ, bibles, heaven, salvation, or any of the other claptrap of Christianity.

The myth of America being founded as a Christian nation didn't really gain ground until the end of the 19th Century with a wave of revisionist Christian religious scholars.

The Declaration makes no references to religion except its reference to the "Creator," a term not included in Jefferson's original draft, and one that was added at the last minute by a person never identified. Even then, the use of the term "Creator" is explicitly consistent with Deist terminology in nature, and gives no evidence of any specifically Christian influence.

The Constitution itself only mentions religion once, and never mentions Christianity. In Article VI, it states, "...all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

There is nothing in the Constitution about swearing in on a bible (John Quincy Adams used a book of statutory laws and an unknown number of Presidents used no book at all). Ending the oath with "So Help Me God" is also a relatively recent addition and is not in the Constitution. The exact 37 words of the oath are:

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

While there is nothing that prevents a President from adding the phrase after the oath, there is a serious Constitutional question about the person administering the oath adding the phrase "So Help You God," that isn't present in the official oath. He is bound by the Constitution only to quote the oath as written.

In fact, for many years, the oath was administered by the administrator simply reading the oath, followed by the President merely asserting "I do."

The ever-increasing intrusion of religion into the inauguration runs contrary to the intent of the Founding Fathers and the early presidents, who did not include religious invocations, or benedictions, bibles, or pledges of "So help me god" in a strictly secular ceremony for a strictly secular office.

Whether Christians like it or not, the steady intrusion of their (or any) religion into our secular government is a perversion of what the Founding Fathers intended this government to be.

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A matter of intellectual honesty...
Posted by: chance garden on Jan 30, 2009 12:49 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Tolerance is one thing...reality another. For myself, the whole public prayer issue comes down to a matter of intellectual honesty...

...Does anybody REALLY believe that "the diety" is listening on the other end of "our national public conference call to God...?

Suppose I was pastor now...PLEASE bow your heads, remain silent, place your thumb in your ear and your little finger near your mouth (you know, that pretend telephone you can make with your hand), and repeat after me..."Dr. Bombay, calling Dr. Bombay, emergency, emergency, come right away!"

My point is that the type of prayer that we heard at the inauguration doesn't ACTUALLY make a connection to "a Diety."

I do not believe that I am somehow being unfair or bigoted by being honest...

...Prayer fulfills some other function for believers, but prayer does not MAKE CONTACT with the gods...to believe that it does, is not intellectually honest...

..Granted, I could be wrong, there could be a Diety listening to the "conference call to God"...I for one, simply do not BELIEVE this to be the case--there is simple no evidence to believe otherwise

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You can't reason with or compromise with
Posted by: willymack on Jan 30, 2009 12:56 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Religion besotted knuckleheads. They want things their way, period, because they're RIGHT, 100% of the time, and on 100% of their beliefs. Change for them is out of the question, even when they're shown when, where, and how they're wrong, they'll go right on with the way their nasty little minds tell them to. Best way to treat them is to keep an eye on them and protect yourself from their lunacy, by law, if necessary.

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Imagine
Posted by: Mr. Heathen on Jan 30, 2009 1:08 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Countries, religion, possessions AND inaugural oaths are all abstractions. They only have worth in our minds. I think it's important to remember that.
I am more concerned about what people think about each other. The 'Golden Rule' is the one 'belief' I share. If I ever think we are in danger of too much empathy, I'll be willing to look elsewhere.

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The "Evolution" of Rick Warren
Posted by: jimswanson on Jan 30, 2009 1:08 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I’m a progressive Christian who is appalled at the Christian Reich’s exclusionary, upside-down, version of Christ and Christianity—Pro-Rich, Pro-War, Anti-LGBT, Anti-Labor, and the list goes on.

I empathize with the increasing number of Americans—especially our youth—who have no use for Christianity, at least not the political version promoted by the Religious Wrong.

But I have chosen to stay and fight to reclaim my faith from those on the political right who use it to justify their rightwing economic and imperial agenda.

Christianity remains a powerful weapon in American politics, and we progressives abandon this weapon to the right at our peril.

I’m guessing that Obama looks at religion and politics roughly the same way.

I’m speculating that Obama is hoping that Rick Warren will somehow “evolve” in the right—oops, I mean left—direction.

Democratic Sen. Robert Byrd, who filibustered the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and was once a member of the Ku Klux Klan, later in life opposed the GOP’s War on Iraq and endorsed Obama for President. People can evolve.

Perhaps Rev. Rick Warren will one day embrace LGBT rights, including marriage, and support a gay or lesbian running for President.

But don’t take that bet! And do keep on agitating!

My views are discussed in, "The Bush League of Nations: The Coalition of the Unwilling, the Bullied and the Bribed – the GOP’s War on Iraq and America," by James A. Swanson (2008, CreateSpace Publishing, 448 pages).

You can download the entire book for FREE at www.bushleagueofnations.com.

I ask for nothing in return, except that you consider using my book to help restore and build America.

Jim Swanson, Los Altos, CA
“The Bush League of Nations”
www.bushleagueofnations.com [for FREE download of entire book]

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We Need an Atheist Homeland
Posted by: Sisyphus1965 on Jan 30, 2009 1:31 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I propose a perfect solution to this. We need and Atheist Homeland.

Check it out in my piece at:

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/shb/duva 19 4htm

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Non-Atheist Wants God out of Government
Posted by: poetac on Jan 30, 2009 2:17 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am not a conventional believer and belong to no religion. Nevertheless, like Albert Einstein, I feel a Mind at work throughout the cosmos. Because this Mind is infinitely greater than any deity ever imagined or indeed imaginable by human beings--given the immensity and complexity of the multi-multi-multiverse that science is discovering--I regard all existing religions as obsolete anthropomorphisms. Therefore "prayer" as petition to a Lord" or "Father" (or for that matter "Mother," though this is less repugnant to me for historical reasons) is an exercise in self-delusion. As William Blake says, "All deities reside in the human breast."

For this reason I am an establishment-clause absolutist. I want all religion and religious allusions out of government, including inaugurations, currency, and all the rest. For the same reasons I think states should offer only civil unions to any couple regardless of gender and giving all the privileges now given heterosexual marriage--and get out of the marriage business. As a student of science I am appalled by the retrograde and stifling influence of religion on the teaching of biology and other sciences in public schools, and under the Bush administration on environmental and family planning policy, women's and LGBTQ rights, and many other areas. No atheist or even agnostic, I join with my atheist and agnostic brothers and sisters as well as with people of whatever faith who are struggling for the complete, final separation of religion and state.

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Who in the hell cares?
Posted by: racetraitor on Jan 30, 2009 4:20 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Really, alternet? Quite another gem to be tossed in the 'I don't give a damn' pile.

Atheists in the modern US feel as if they are persecuted for their beliefs a la the Inquisition. There are no pogroms against atheists in the US. That's the beauty of it all. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and make the inference that the majority of self-identified atheists are middle class whites. When is it that you you lost out due to your non-belief in the supernatural?

This issue is one just like 'gay marriage', whereabouts the left engages in the same meaningless and abstract culture wars as the right. If banks are still getting bailouts and cutting staff while retaining bloated CEO's, is the lack of shout outs by Obama really worth twisting and contorting on your self-made crosses?

As a note, I am an atheist, however it's such an insignificant part of who I am, that I much prefer to be identified as a Marxist, (or, an atheist with realistic applications).

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The Dictatorship of Heaven
Posted by: GUY FOX on Jan 30, 2009 6:28 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When KKKristians die they hope to go the dictatorship of heaven where they will espend eternity (forever an' ever) playing the harp, reading the bible... and worshiping "Our Lord" Jeeezass... and the father god of "Our Lord" Jeeezass! Yeah... forever an' ever!

Give it some thought. Does the kingdom (dictatorship) sound like heaven or hell?

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» RE: The Dictatorship of Heaven Posted by: Aureantes
Comment on Comments
Posted by: GPFrank on Jan 30, 2009 9:21 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just saw an ad by David Harris that refers to religion being the only house that tolerates dogma. I would put it a little differently. Religion is the house of dogma, where dogma is to be spoken, taught and enjoyed. So let's keep the disease confined there, in the various churches. But people in the churches also get tired of it and get on up to encourage free thinking in some form.
It is a fact of history that major Greek philosophers taught that nature, existence itself is governed by laws that were always there, previous to our existence; previous to Gods or beings. Aristotle temporized on that because he had problems with dogmas. But in spite of the general belief in the Academy the leadership tolerated or encouraged the traffic of the Gods among the people, for the practical reason of maintaining slavery.
But what is most relevant to us is that the best morality comes out of free thinking which means that ultimately no one is responsible for our salvation but ourselves. That may consist of living the virtues that were perceived as among the forms pre-existing before everything else and considering whether our acts can be a universal law. The greatest satisfaction is conceived in seeking and doing the right thing, that largely consists of what
Jesus, thought by some to be the Rabbi, Yeshua,
taught about loving neighbor as oneself.
If there is anything divine it is the rightness
we find within ourselves and other people.

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Why American Rationalists are "Paranoid"
Posted by: todayspeaker on Jan 31, 2009 9:02 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
American rationalists are "paranoid" because religionists have changed the U.S. motto from "e pluribus unum (one from many)" to "In God We Trust" and have inserted the religious "under God" into a Pledge of Allegiance which was very carefully crafted to include every citizen.

Even the columnist "Dear Amy" recently opined that rationalists are ungracious if they do not allow religionist guests and relatives to say grace before a holiday dinner, while she said not a word about religionists trying to be gracious enough not to insist on placing dollhouse nativity scenes and giant menorahs in our capitol buildings and airports. (I live in the state of Washington.)

And my, how graciously helpful Obama's church and mentor pastor were in helping to get him elected.

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"God is a Concept by which we measure our pain"- Lennon
Posted by: Purple Girl on Feb 1, 2009 4:26 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For every person you meet, you will hear a different definition.I can easily exchange the word 'God' for 'nature'.
We have yet to comprehend about both. We have theories,But often must readjust them as new information comes available or is discovered.
"God" is a simple three letter word to use when discussing th eshit we have no yet figured out, or is so unexplainable we are not sure we ever will- Life after deeath experiences? Ghosts? ESP?
Having recovered from Catholic dogma decades ago, I immediately turned to atheism. But life 'little mysteries' have made me now a 'doubting Thomas' about such an absolute stance.
Regardless of whether a 'creation' or an evolutionary freak of nature, we are the Only species capable of managing the planet, effecting the environment and all other living things. Whether we consider our station in life a duty to God, or just of fact of our innate abilities, is really irrelevant.It's a gift and a burden. In the same vein, if the world spins off it's axis, does it matter if it is an act of God or a mishap of plantary behavior?
Besides it is not the belief or revenence in something bigger than ourselves which causes wars and hate, it's the worship of different 'sacred Cows'..Idols, which motivate humanities inhumanity.
Let's be honest, scientist hold nature in great reverence and awe just as much as those who call themselves 'faithfuls'.Are they not as fearful of retribution for 'sins', like pollution, carbon emmissions and deforestation?
We are the Stewards of 'god' or Nature and we will ultimately pay the price for our dereliciton of those duties- one way or another.

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bangzoom
Posted by: bangzoom on Feb 1, 2009 2:07 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Pretty much everything around us is based on opinion. What's right, what's wrong, what's good, what's bad. My opinion is that organized religion does much more harm to society than it does good. It divides people up needlessly and sets up a climate for prejudice against others who believe different. Just look at how ridiculous it is to assign a religion to someone at birth. While they're at it, why don't they assign the baby a favorite color or a favorite type of music? I have a hard time separating religion from superstition. References to god and the such do not belong in the inauguaration. If so, then where do you stop? Do you have a representative from every religion and then a prayer for each of them as well? It's ridiculous.

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How I got the 3 components downloaded & installed
Posted by: itouch backup on Feb 11, 2009 10:51 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
M4R Converter

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