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Immigration Reformers Must Take the Moral High Ground

By Roberto Lovato, New America Media. Posted January 22, 2009.


Smart immigration reform is a moral, as well as a legal imperative.

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The buzz filling Blackberrys, busy halls and spacious deal-making rooms in Washington appears to signal that spring arrived early this year for immigrants. In the last week alone, several prominent figures—outgoing President Bush, incoming President Obama, Mexican President Calderón, Los Angeles Cardinal Mahoney, to name a few—have discussed the possibility of comprehensive immigration reform. And, as in the previous failed attempts at reform in 2006 and 2007, legalization for the more than 12 million undocumented among us occupies the center of forums, speeches and other public statements of Democratic and civic leaders in the beltway.

“Immigrants must be brought out of the shadows so they can fully contribute to our nation’s future economic and social well-being,” declared Cardinal Mahoney during a recent teleconference.

While laudable in its intent, the legalization-centered approach of Mahoney and others may not be the best way to deal with the tragic legacy of failed immigration reform: spikes in anti-immigrant, anti-Latino hate crimes, deaths in decrepit immigrant prisons, thousands of families separated, children and families terrorized by heavily armed Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents raiding their homes.

These efforts are inadequate because, contrary to the new Washington consensus on immigration, the greatest single need in immigration reform is not legalization. Rather, what is most needed is moral imagination.

The predominance of the “practical” considerations – “immigrants are good for the economy,” “we need tough and smart enforcement,” etc.— framing the arguments in favor of comprehensive reform should be balanced by a simple, but now elusive fact that smashes any of the discursive frames prevailing on either side of the immigration debate: undocumented immigrants are first and foremost human beings whose lives are as sacred as that of any other being.

Although all advocates surely believe this, not all voice it as much as they used to.

Thankfully, the possibilities of the political moment reflected in the election of Barack Obama and a new, more Democratic Congress offer us the best opportunity to return morality to the center of an immigration debate that has reached dangerous levels of absurdity, if the spate of murders of immigrants here in “liberal” New York and other cities are any indicator.

Although Mahoney, Bush and other backers of immigration reform have included some moral arguments as part of their case, the Washington, D.C., realpolitik of the past decade has pushed moral considerations into the shadow of the legalization-centered approach. Consider, for example, how Mahoney, Bush and other backers of the failed McCain-Kennedy immigration reform package of 2006 to 2007, were willing to “trade off” the more than 700 pages of punitive immigration policy—increased incarceration, deportation, militarization of the border—for less than 100 pages of punitive approaches to legalization contained in the bill.

While morality cannot be legislated, moral considerations can and must be part of immigration legislation. This is the way it was before the mid-1990s, the period when Washington decided to de-emphasize moral arguments in favor of the realpolitikal legalization approach provided by high-powered pollsters and public relations consultants. This was when the now familiar immigration reform jargon—”smart and tough,” “practical” and “comprehensive”—entered our national discourse on immigration reform. I still remember how uncomfortable I felt during teleconferences organized by the National Council of La Raza (NCLR), the National Immigration Forum (NIF) and other Washington groups at the time. Hearing pollsters and advocates tell us, “Moral arguments don’t work with the voters,” made me nervous. Hearing them then call for “necessary tradeoffs” (code for accepting even more punitive immigration policies in exchange for legalization) as part of “comprehensive immigration reform” scared me.


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Roberto Lovato, a frequent Nation contributor, is a New York-based writer with New America Media.

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A two pronged reform method against illegal aliens:
Posted by: Nietzsche’s Bastard on Jan 22, 2009 7:26 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1 Deport all Illegal aliens.
2 Jail those who employ illegal labor.

If reformers want to take the moral high ground, stop playing semantics. Call an illegal alien what they are, legal.

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Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.
» LET THE RATING SPEAK FOR IT SELF Posted by: Nietzsche’s Bastard
» trolls Posted by: chance garden
» can't forget the illegals whom kill or are sex slaves Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
What is really moral and right?
Posted by: Durendal55 on Jan 23, 2009 7:30 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author of this article spends a lot of time talking about what is Moral and Right. And how focusing on that will cause such a groundswell of support that Comprehensive Immigration Reform will win the day just like the Civil Rights Movement did four plus decades ago. And yet totally misses the mark.

The Author apparently has not learned the most fundamental aspect of the human condition. We humans tend to frame Moral and Right based on our own personal experiences and teachings. So each person’s definition of what is Moral and Right is different from the next. And each person is equally fervent that their definition of what is Moral and Right is the true path. And everyone who disagrees with them is so very wrong.

When those differences between people are small then a powerful force can be created that can overcome Jim Crow, Segregation, and Discrimination. But the situation presented the people of the USA with Illegal Immigration does not fit so easily into the what is Moral and Right box.

The Author seems to define those against deportation, detention, and checking immigration status via raids or otherwise as Moral and Right. One cannot doubt that the decision process the Author followed to determine what is Moral and Right in his opinion is well thought out, well rationalized, and well articulated. And it is as accurate as looking at the world through the slats in a picket fence. When everyone else looks through the same picket fence then agreement is easy. But it is also very human to focus on what a person thinks is important and ignore the rest, unaware that the slats in the picket fence obscure some important truths.

For every working Illegal Immigrant there is an unemployed American. The Americans hurt the worst are young and minority workers. What is more Moral and Right, protecting the American Worker or protecting the Illegal Immigrant? For every added person to the USA we use more resources and develop more land, reducing our green space. What is more Moral and Right, protecting the Environment or protecting the Illegal Immigrant? For every injustice in this country we try to have a law that protects people form that injustice. If immigration law that was crafted to maintain a balance between workers and employers so as to avoid a large pool of unemployed people that invariably drives down wages, is it then Moral and Right to ignore that law because the people who violate it are human beings? What about all those other laws that protect people in other ways? Should those laws also be ignored when they inconvenience a human being?

They used to say that in order to understand a person you needed to walk a mile in their shoes. Yet I see plenty of derision and name calling directed at what used to be called working class heroes. Citizens that are simply standing up against those who would destroy their standard of living by importing strong backs illegally, who will work for peanuts in direct violation of laws designed to protect that hard working Citizen from just that kind of situation. Now we are evolving towards the old Communist belief that if you do not agree it must be because you are uneducated or just plain deficient in understanding what is Moral and Right.

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America is not the world's welfare system
Posted by: Nietzsche’s Bastard on Jan 24, 2009 12:11 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My respect is given on an individual basis. Anyone that has illegally entered my country will never have my respect or empathy. The only thing America owes them is a booting across the border. They are criminals and are stealing from Americans.

I’ll have none of this “except for native Americans, we are all illegal” I was born in the US in 1982. Since Homo Sapiens are not indigenous to the Americas, there is no such thing as a native American.

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Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.
Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.
» Grom and Grog Posted by: zooeyhall
» RE: Your history is flawed Posted by: photon's feather
» RE: Your history is flawed Posted by: gar1948
» How many can the boat hold? Posted by: zooeyhall
Human are indigenous to this planet...
Posted by: chance garden on Jan 24, 2009 1:28 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...Over time, we move in migrations across the earth, ebbing and flowing, like an ocean tide...

..In reality nobody owns the land...

...That is why these migration issues are never truly solved...

...so long as folks still believe in what they deem "is theirs"

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» You made my point Posted by: Nietzsche’s Bastard
» IT IS OURS..... Posted by: gellero1
Alternet’s half truths
Posted by: Nietzsche’s Bastard on Jan 24, 2009 1:59 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Immigrants are not being detained and deported. Illegal Immigrants are being detained and deported (but not in high enough numbers).

Your semantics is ignorant at best and flat out deceit at worst.

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Let's Make A Deal
Posted by: NoPCZone on Jan 24, 2009 2:37 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'll cut this deal with the US Chamber of Commerce and the Republicans:
1- You can bring all the workers you want into the US, citizens or not, provided they speak the common language and stay employed. Their income will be taxed at the rate of a citizen +20% for Federal Income Taxes until they gain citizenship.
2- Taft Hartley is repealed, EFCA is passed and all state Right-to-Work Laws are voided. Davis-Bacon is strictly enforced on not only government construction, but on all government contracts as well as any subcontracted services. Take a penny of government money and the wages must be Union wages.
3- A Medicare for all Universal Healthcare system is established.
4- Each state will levy a 20% surcharge on tuition for all non-citizen adults attending public universities.
5- Any violation of immigration laws or visa laws is punishable by immediate deportation with the legal process moving after deportation.
6- Any employer knowingly hiring an illegal alien or faking documentation in order to circumvent these laws will be subject to a penalty of no less than $100,000 per count and no less than 30 Days in Jail per count. Repeat offenders will be subject to revocation of their US citizenship and deportation.

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» RE: Let's Make A Deal Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield
» RE: Let's Make A Deal Posted by: NoPCZone
» John McCain, W, Jeb Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars
What about Americans who have lost their jobs?
Posted by: Mary MacElveen on Jan 24, 2009 6:19 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a nation, our focus should be on the millions of Americans who are citizens of this country who have lost their jobs. We cannot even address immigration reform until the economy turns around. If President Obama and the Democrats take this on, you will see a ground swell of angry Americans confronting them and rightfully so.

Mary MacElveen
http://www.marymacelveen.com

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"Moral" is a two way street
Posted by: Auk on Jan 24, 2009 6:19 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First, I think illegal immigration will be less of a problem in the next several years because the US economy will suck so bad, immigrants won't want to come here. (Not making a joke, unfortunately.)

Second, the "moral" argument works both ways. Okay, I have noticed reports of occasional hate crimes against Latinos (not necessarily illegals) such as a recent murder on Long Island that got a lot of attention. By the same token, whenever crimes committed BY immigrants are brought up, apologists like Lovato dismiss all that as anecdotal and rare.

It makes sense to me that immigrants without the proper papers would mostly tend to want to avoid trouble. I'm sure the vast majority do... and yet, there are at least a few well-documented cases of horrific crimes committed by them, as well as the accidents while driving without insurance which are too numerous to count. Of course, anyone on a site like AlterNet who brings up such things, just gets called "racist," even though the incidents are real. So it seems what Lovato really wants is a "moral" double standard.

Then there's this:

...what many advocates are already doing around detention and torture in Guantanamo: reigniting the moral imagination that must inform the debate.

"Imagination" is an odd word to use here. With Gitmo it was right-wingers who were the imaginative ones, unsatisfied with long-standing legal principles and already-existing US law.

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Cardinal Mahoney enforces Global Gag Rule on all Effective Family Planning
Posted by: plantland on Jan 24, 2009 7:04 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't consider the Cardinal a Moral Authority, just a rearguard enforcer.(Another Alternet article saluted Obama's reversing the Gobal Gag rule, but that thinking goes out the window when the thorny issue of immigration is involved).

A CHURCH THAT DIDN'T APPROVE OF ABORTIONS FOR RAPED WOMEN IN RUWANDA SHOULD HAVE NOTHING TO SAY ABOUT US IMMIGRATION POLICY.

I thought we all want to restore the US Constitution. Are our schools getting so over stressed and lousy that current students won't even know that church and state are supposed to be separate?

The church has been able to achieve very large family sizes among the poorest and most uneducated young girls in Guatemala and other countries.

To let someone who has come here illegally, be able to bring up an entire extended family for the puposes of family "reunification", may work for the Cardinal but does not work for the US- or for the numerous poor being callously churned out due to the Cardinal's principles back in Guatemala.

I will be impressed when the Vatican sells its treasures to distribute to the poor, and when the Cardinal lives like a monk.

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You proved my point.
Posted by: Nietzsche’s Bastard on Jan 24, 2009 7:09 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You gained your land by buying it through accepted channels. You maintain control of it via the systems set up through or European like system.

That aint the way you ingines u sta do it.

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Illegals have run away from their problems
Posted by: Phred42 on Jan 24, 2009 7:13 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Illegals are here because their countries SUCK - and - because it is EASIER to come here than it is to clean up the mess they allowed to happen in their own countries.

They have run away from their own problems - get it? Do I have to spell it out more plainly?

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Lockheed CEO should be Prosecuted
Posted by: Purple Girl on Jan 24, 2009 7:41 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That dirty SOB dared tell American workers We should lower our standards and scrape the American Dream so Corps can treat US like Mexicans!!!
It is not in the best interest of any american worker to support Indentured slavery, it only encourages Corps to devalue ALL Workers. Make corps treat All workers fairly and provide real Living wages.
I have no intentions of down grading the American Worker to 3rd world Economics. I would prefer to Lift Them Up to Our standards!
Global Workers Unite and bring Inc's to their knees...Strike and Boycott!!

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» RE: Lockheed CEO is a welfare queen Posted by: AngryWhiteFemale
I may have come to this country legally in 1965 but we need to get something straight.
Posted by: jwverez on Jan 24, 2009 8:13 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As has been pointed out by some of the others, our immigrant brothers and sisters were dumped on here due to various reasons, be it the "free trade" scams, oppressive governments, privatization and deregulation both here and there, you name it. I live in South Texas but I know very well that no matter how tough our borders are, the immigration mess ain't gonna stop. Blaming the immigrants only is no different from blaming the victims of foreclosure who were doing their honest work and share but were derailed by unanticipated events resulting in unaffordable bills. My wife went through the trouble twice of saving a Mexican couple from being mistakenly classified as unauthorized immigrants and I'm glad that the couple aren't on the hate list. That was similar to helping a neigboring family of mine avoid foreclosure due to the man's expensive medical bills resulting from injury due to slipping while trying to repair his roof and a layoff despite his being able to carry on despite his disabilities although the company is now taking him back and willing to give higher pay after their guilty admission of outsourcing inexcusably. I guess I'm glad that I didn't give up my life just because I lost a few limbs in Vietnam or I wouldn't have been able to save a few good people from making it to economic hate lists in this dysfunctional nation of ours !

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The only thing wrong with our immigration laws ...
Posted by: gar1948 on Jan 24, 2009 8:38 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... is nothing.

Let's face it, what this article is talking about is not "immigration laws." We have perfectly adequate immigration laws. What we need are laws to deal with illegal aliens.

Illegal aliens are criminals who have broken the law of the land. People who employ them are also criminals. Both need to be dealt with. The illegal aliens should be shipped out of the country. The employers should face heavy fines and/or imprisonment.

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Scrap NAFTA/clarify the 14thAmendment
Posted by: Kelly on Jan 24, 2009 9:08 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The laws regarding immigration need to be followed. However, the US can take other steps to reduce incentive for illegal immigration. I can't pussyfoot around the ethnic dimension of this problem--immigrant activists aren't fighting for increases in Iraqi or Darfurian immigration (though these are true refugees rather than economic opportunists). Therefore, any solution should be tailored to changing the relationship between the US and Central and South American countries.

Therefore, NAFTA should be scrapped in its entirety. The 14th Amendment needs to be clarified in regards to citizenship. It is being used in ways that are insulting to its original purpose--ensuring the citizenship of freed slaves. Instead, it has been used to institute corporate personhood and to allow illegal immigrants to circumvent the law regarding welfare benefits. Most other countries do not grant citizenship based solely on place of birth. Instead, at least one parent must already be a citizen at the time of the person's birth.

However, the US also needs to stop propping up dictatorships and corrupt governments in Central and South America. If people have a chance to make their native culture a better place, I believe they will do so. Instead, they have corruption and rampaging drug gangs as a result of interference from their northern neighbors. This can be helped by increased foreign aid and re-visiting US drug laws.

The more the US acts as a pressure valve for the world's excess population, the worse the quality of life here will become. Unchecked population growth will result in worsening gridlock and pollution, rising cost of living, higher unemployment, collapsing schools, lowered educational standards, less access to health care, and less SPACE. Is this the way anyone wants to live? In overcrowding this country, the conditions being fled are merely re-created.

Compassion for the homeless does not generally mean that I will allow them all to move into my home and to use all of the resources I have carefully built for my children. To do so would ruin my quality of life. I believe this is a sound analogy. Think about it.

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and let's not forget the real cause of "illegal" immigration
Posted by: Higher Reptile on Jan 24, 2009 9:13 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and neighboring Mexico is a clear cut example. PEMEX, their national oil company and largest contributor to the GDP has been controlled by the CIA since, at least, the 50's. Today, Halliburton is it's principal contractor. If you think lobbying is bad for America, take a good look at what members of Mexico's American Chamber of Commerce have done to leach the country and scuttle any decent labor initiatives. leftist candidate Manuel Lopez Obrador, the real winner in Mexico's last presidential elections had his mandate blatantly stolen - this is well documented. Cheney and James Baker certainly approved, but Mexicans took to the streets in defiance. Look who's behind stamping out righteous revolt in Chiapas, fomenting drug trade and low, low wages - US companies, like Ford of Mexico, Coca Cola of Mexico, 3M of Mexico... more than 18000 companies with U.S. investment have operations there and, this is fact, they are free to discriminate based on sex, age and race. American companies in Mexico can require female applicants to submit a recent photograph with their resumes. So, American policies are key to the quality of life for the Mexican population. most people, anywhere on earth, would dread having to uproot and immigrate illegally to an openly hostile environment. it takes a lot of pain and suffering to make such a hard decision for just a few dollars more. lead by example? let's also make the world a better place and stop being such callous hypocrites.

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Until it happens to you...
Posted by: phatkhat on Jan 24, 2009 10:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Immigration has always been kind of a non-issue for me. I boycotted back in the Chavez days, because migrant workers deserve a fair wage. I certainly have a lot of sympathy for ANY workers who are underpaid and overworked.

But the situation is out of hand, and has gotten that way largely because of the policies of the Bush Administration. He welcomed in low-wage workers to help out his big corporate buddies and family, and didn't care about American workers.

I do NOT support amnesty. I do suppport stiffer controls on who comes in, and enforcing visa time limits. (If you think that all the illegal immigrants come hidden in trunks and stuff...LOL. A lot of them come in tour buses with tourist visas, and simply never go back.) I also support HUGE penalties on any company that hires undocumented immigrants.

So why is this a hot issue for me now? My husband is a truck driver. (He, like many other truckers, has a college degree and is an intelligent man, in case some of the resident latte sippers don't feel comfortable with blue collar people, LOL.) GWB pushed a policy that would allow Mexican trucks to come freely into the US to haul freight, much more freely than the Canadians are allowed to. This was to alleviate the perceived "driver shortage". What it really means is that the companies that pay an American driver 35 cents a mile could pay a Mexican 17 cents a mile.

Hubby found himself sitting idle a lot, along with a lot of other Anglo and Black drivers, and also noticed a whole lot of non-English speaking Latinos showing up on the yards. None of them sat idle for long. Eventually, he quit, and went looking for a gas field hauling job locally. We later learned through Landline Magazine that the owner of his old company, CalArk, had been fined $50K for buying fake visas for undocumented drivers.

In addition to the Latinos, trucking companies in both the US and Canada actively recruit drivers from other Eastern European and third world countries. You will find a lot of them working for the so-called "coolie carriers" like Swift and USA Trucks. A lot of them do not speak English, and they do not understand our traffic laws.

We live in a small town in Arkansas, where they are drilling for gas. Before the drilling started, we had a Latino population of perhaps .5%. Now, it is probably 12-15%. We even have a couple of new Spanish speaking churches and a Latino grocery store. These people, both documented and undocumented, came for the work - and a lot were simply brought by the drilling companies.

WE, the people of this area, were promised economic bliss from the gas companies. Oh, JOBS would be created, and we would become prosperous. Sounded good, as unemployment here is pretty high. Well, the jobs didn't materialize, because workers were imported rather than hiring locally. We have noise, traffic, and pollution - our water is ruined - but no jobs. :-(

A couple of water haulers started hiring locally, and hubby got a job. $16/hr, which is very good for this area. Four weeks later, he was "laid off". No work. But we drove by the yard, and saw a lot of trucks and Latinos - no Anglos. A couple of guys I know have gone through several companies, with the same process. Get hired, get laid off, and the immigrants get the jobs. Go to next company and repeat. And I seriously doubt that they are paid $16/hr.

Multiply this by the labor situation all over the US, and you get the picture. You have to understand that AMERICAN CITIZENS who work blue collar and service economy jobs are FURIOUS about this. If you are out of touch with anything outside the white collar realm, you may not understand this.

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» RE: Until it happens to you... Posted by: phatkhat
» RE: Until it happens to you... Posted by: phatkhat
» It happened in Nebraska Posted by: zooeyhall
» RE: It happened in Nebraska Posted by: jwverez
Like the Palestinians, blame the immigrants is just so "fun" and "easy" to do, isn't it?
Posted by: maxpayne on Jan 24, 2009 11:41 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And then you wonder why the elites get away with their sellout and oppressive policies.

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People need to open their eyes about the corporate criminals behind illegal immigration
Posted by: AngryWhiteFemale on Jan 24, 2009 12:00 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Read the case Trollinger v. Tyson Foods.

Here's an excerpt:
One of the nation’s largest poultry processors, Tyson Foods, Inc. employs more than 120,000 workers. Tyson’s headquarters are in Springdale, Arkansas, and it has processing plants throughout the country. One of Tyson’s plants is located in Shelbyville, Tennessee, a town of 15,000 people in middle Tennessee, approximately 50 miles southeast of Nashville.

In December 2001, a federal grand jury returned a 36-count indictment against Tyson and several individuals. In general, the indictment charged Tyson and the individuals with conspiring to smuggle illegal aliens into the United States across its southern border and employing them at 15 of Tyson’s processing plants in nine different States. In addition to a conspiracy to violate the immigration laws in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 371, the indictment charged the defendants with causing illegal aliens to be brought into the country, in violation of 8 U.S.C. § 1324(a)(2)(B)(ii) and 18 U.S.C. § 2; causing illegal aliens to be transported, in violation of 8 U.S.C. § 1324(a)(1)(A)(ii) and (a)(1)(B)(i), and 18 U.S.C. § 2; causing the use of illegal documents, in violation of 18 U.S.C. §§ 1546(b) and 2; and causing the possession of fraudulent documents by illegal aliens, in violation of 18 U.S.C. §§ 1546(a) and 2.

In April 2002, soon after the indictment was filed, Birda Trollinger, Robert Martinez, Tabetha Eddings and Doris Jewell—former hourly workers at Tyson’s Shelbyville facility who were legally employed by Tyson—filed this civil RICO action against Tyson based on some of the same allegedly illegal activities underlying the criminal indictment. The amended complaint alleges that Tyson engaged in a scheme to depress the wages paid to its hourly employees by knowingly hiring undocumented illegal immigrants who were willing to work for wages well below those paid in labor markets composed of only United States citizens. Assisting Tyson in this scheme was a network of recruiters and temporary employment agencies that would transport the illegal workers to the United States, obtain housing for them and provide them with false identification documents. As a result of the scheme, the complaint alleges, over half of the workers at 15 of Tyson’s facilities are illegal immigrants, allowing Tyson to pay its legal employees wages substantially below the wage level paid by other employers of unskilled labor in the areas surrounding the 15 facilities. Plaintiffs seek injunctive relief along with treble damages.


Here's the link to the US Court of Appeals decision:
Trollinger v. Tyson Foods, Inc.

Like maxpayne says above, it's easy to blame the most vulnerable among us. There are so many morons in this country who don't know what's really going on.

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Does anyone know what politicians Big Chicko supports? DNC? RNC?
Posted by: plantland on Jan 24, 2009 12:34 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I also think that these processors such as Tyson are guilty of giving antibiotics to chickens to help them overcome their crowded conditions and not get diseased as soon- thereby adding to the antibiotic resistance in people due to getting micro amounts in non organic eggs.

Hippie types will do farm work, when they are not exposed to pesticides! Of course, it is immoral to expose farmworkers to dangerous pesticides even if they are illegal.

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Plain Truth
Posted by: Gregsdiary on Jan 24, 2009 1:07 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"We humans tend to frame Moral and Right based on our own personal experiences and teachings. So each person’s definition of what is Moral and Right is different from the next. And each person is equally fervent that their definition of what is Moral and Right is the true path. And everyone who disagrees with them is so very wrong."

This is true. People do feel that way.

But it does not mean there is no true path or moral right.

Freedom, for instance, is a moral right. People have a right to be free from dehumanizing treatment.

There is however--as the author of the above quoted paragraph makes clear--another interpretation of freedom. A selfish freedom Lincoln called "the wolf's definition of liberty."

It is morally wrong.
It is not the true path.
It's just that plain and simple.

We should not only be thankful that once again people are working to repudiate the the "wolf's" definition of morality--we should join them.

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A Depression is not the Time to Push for more Immigration
Posted by: Shankari46 on Jan 24, 2009 5:45 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When Americans can't work, and banks have already sent the greed index through the roof, I really don't care about more greedy people who think they NEED slave labor, because that's all it is. We send all our manufacturing to China and what's left is given to slaves here called "illegals". Our graduates from OUR universities are being pushed out by Indians and Chinese, and our blue collar folks are being pushed out by illegals so filthy rich people can get filthier richer. Meanwhile our states are coming down because they pay for free health care for illegals. What about red, white, and blue here? We are actually punished for being citizens.

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After approximately 100 comments
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN on Jan 25, 2009 7:40 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
where the hell is sister_spitter??
Did she get scared off by the truth?lol

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Illegals out - Employers in jail
Posted by: GregH on Jan 25, 2009 12:08 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Cesar Chavez opposed illegal immigration and even patrolled the border to physically stop illegal immigrants. Mandela thought illegal immigration was the biggest danger South Africa faced. The Arizona Mexican American miners I worked with at the San Manuel Mine in the ’70s were more resentful of Green Card miners then Anglos were. The Mexican American hotel maids in San Diego are afraid to ask for a raise - they know they will be replaced in a heartbeat by an illegal worker.

I volunteered and donated money to Obama partially because of McCain’s stance on illegal workers. McCain once told a meeting of Union Officials that Americans would not pick lettuce in Arizona for Fifty Dollars per hour. They should have thrown their shoes at him. My mom picked cotton in Arizona and my dad punched cattle in Arizona long before there was air conditioning and bottled water. We will do it again for a living wage.

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I want to say this is a very good discussion.
Posted by: phatkhat on Jan 25, 2009 12:23 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Except for a couple, the posters have been respectful of one another, and a lot of good ideas and information have been exchanged. It hasn't been a "rah-rah" vs. "boo-hiss" kind of thread like so many here are.

I think this is a problem that affects us all, and it is good to think about it and discuss it from all points of view. I also appreciate the author's point of view, even if I don't really agree with his approach.

One thing I think I am taking away from this is that it has been reiterated that we DO have to respect each other as human beings, and we DO have some responsibility towards one another. The laissez-faire system/consumer culture we have in the developed world is NOT sustainable, and the sooner we give up our preconceived ideas about "a good lifestyle" the better.

The only problem is how to counteract the MSM, the neo-con propaganda machine, and how to pull the wedges OUT so we can pull together...

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Begorrah, Cardinal, there's a wee bit o' a recession goin on.
Posted by: edgar1 on Jan 25, 2009 12:55 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Immigrants must be brought out of the shadows so they can fully contribute to our nation’s future economic and social well-being,” declared Cardinal Mahoney during a recent teleconference."

Cardinal Mahoney, who has put Mexican immigrants ahead of white, black and legal Hispanic workers for many years now, needs to get his head out of the Lives of the Saints and look around. There's a depression practically here and definitely comin', you moron.

Do your magic rituals, pray, spin your crucifix three times backwards and bring back sunny times your "holiness". In the meantime, shut the fooook up. We want to bring these bloodsuckers out of the shadows fer sher, as you might say/ Then put em on a barge for the "New World."

Just shows the Church knows as much about immigration and jobs as it does about sex.

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Milwaukee needs immigrants!!
Posted by: AJR Journal on Jan 25, 2009 7:38 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I applaud and support every person who chooses to come to Milwaukee! We can use more immigration, whether legal or illegal.

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The price of Empire
Posted by: katz22br on Jan 25, 2009 7:58 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well, there's no easy way around this one, so let's be direct. Being the citizen of an Empire may have its perks, but History teaches us that it also has its consequences.

Americans... Ah, you want it all: the big-screen TV, the gas-guzzler, the McMansion, the gourmet coffee and the whole shebang. And you want it now, preferably on the cheap.

If you covet those Empire perks, it's only fair to assume you agree with the actions and policies your Government has been imposing on the rest of the world for many, many decades now, just so you can have your goodies. They are acting in your name, and that means that you, through their representation:

- tell other countries how to conduct their affairs, internal and external;
- determine what can and cannot be planted and/or produced in other people's land;
- invade sovereign nations, kill and maim civilians to plunder their resources;
- strong-arm foreign governments into "bilateral" agreements that make sure local industries will fail;
- destroy whole economies and cultures for profit, in the name of "Freedom" and of the sacred "American Interests";
- invest huge sums in weapons and establish garrisons all over the globe to enforce your rules and continue imposing your will upon others.

Now, that generates a lot of misery around the world - even more in the most vulnerable, impoverished nations.

On the other hand... regular people are regular people, no matter what color, religion or nationality - and most Americans are no different. All they want is to live in peace, to be able to work, to make a decent living, to be able to feed, clothe and protect their loved ones, to be free from unjust harassment. Basic, simple needs.

If the place where you currently live prevents you from taking care of those basic needs, you can't survive - so you HAVE to move to a different place. Human beings have been doing that for millenia. "El hambre viene, el hombre se va" (when hunger moves in, people move out). It is that simple, really. All the rest is B.S. fed to you by the elites in control, in order to prevent the American workers from realizing that they have much more in common with a Mexican, a Pakistani or an African worker than with the ruling class in their own country.

So, you don't want foreigners in your country or - even less - in your neighborhood? You want to solve the "Immigration Problem" once and for all? Well, for starters, stop creating hunger and despair outside your borders. As the saying goes: live simply, so others can simply live.

Otherwise, quit complaining and accept the side-effects of your beloved Empire. Ah, and pick your own tomatoes, while you're at it.

k

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» RE: The price of Empire Posted by: Kelly
» RE: The price of Empire Posted by: YogiBear
The Power of Rationalization
Posted by: Durendal55 on Jan 26, 2009 8:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This discussion has ranged from NAFTA to Native American Nativism to National Exploitation of the Third World to multi-national migration from hunger. According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics there are 16,596,000 Americans looking for work right now. According to the Pew Center there are 7 million non-Americans who are in the United States illegally holding jobs. A surprisingly large number of contributors have recognized that illegal immigration is really about jobs. That is what that Liberal Lion Teddy Kennedy intended when he drafted the sections of the current immigration law that are being broken so regularly and were intended to limit immigration in job markets where we have people out of work. Once again we have to decide what kind of America we want in to line in? Do we want to put race, national origin, or a shared religion first? Or should Citizenship and legality be the deciding factor?

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The usual la-di-dah on immigration
Posted by: Old Skeptic on Jan 26, 2009 3:02 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As usual on Alternet, the pro-immigrant writers make no distinction between legal immigrants and illegal aliens. IMO, legal immigrants are equivalent to invited guests; illegal aliens are equivalent to burglars or home invaders. We do need to cut down on even legal immigration, especially now with our country teetering toward a depression. We can't absorb the surplus population of the Third World.

Illegal aliens should be deported, and their employers should be fined and jailed. The welfare of the American people should be our first and foremost concern.

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until every citizen and legal resident is housed, fed, insured, and educated
Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Jan 26, 2009 7:36 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
until every citizen and legal resident is housed, fed, insured, and educated... how can we take on the rest of the planet when we can't even take care of ourselves? care about future generations!?!?!!? LIMIT YOUR BREEDING! this country and planet will be a toxic wasteland in 100 years. whoever "inherits" it will be in a world of hurt. i, for one, am leaving nobody behind to endure the hell to come.

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Morality can't be legislated... Great argument... Hah!
Posted by: independent1 on Jan 28, 2009 10:41 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hey Roberto, you wrote:
"Morality can't be legislated" - and you're at least nominally correct. But hey, pal, the law CAN BE prosecuted: that includes the U.S. law against illegal entry! Go back to Hispania and to your career picking chillies.

Our infrastructure needs renovating: so lets include holding pens for those 12 million who should be and will be awaiting deportation. Oh, and make these crooks pay for their rent & food while there and for their plane tickets back to home. That'll be the first real contribution to the American economy those job-suckers have made to date.

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