The Public Eye / By Frederick Clarkson
comments_imageCOMMENTS: 223

Merry War on Christmas -- The Religious Right Isn't Going Anywhere

The Christian right has launched a permanent religious war to thwart, and even to roll back, advances in civil rights.
December 25, 2008  |  
 
 
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Editor's Note: The idea that Bush's departure and Barack Obama's election herald a decline in power for the Christian Right in America is sorely mistaken. As the "War on Christmas" turns into an annual outrage, and progressives argue against the choice of anti-gay, anti-abortion Pastor Rick Warren to give the invocation at Obama's inauguration, we are reminded all too soon that the Religious Right is a steady force in the political and cultural arena. Frederick Clarkson's essay makes the case that we are in the middle of a religious war --  and that we should always be on alert against it.

For a year or more in the run-up to the elections, we heard claims that the Religious Right is dead, dying or irrelevant and that the so-called Culture Wars are over, or about to be. Such declarations have turned out to be spectacularly wrong.

There are many reasons for the staying power of the Religious Right. Among them is an extraordinary infrastructure developed over decades, especially at the state level. This infrastructure is an important part of the reason the movement will be able to sustain, restore and replenish itself as the founding generation of Religious Right leaders passes from public life and why it will be able to regroup in the wake of national Republican electoral losses in 2008. But this is not the only reason.

The Religious Right is on a mission, or rather a cluster of interrelated missions. They are religious in nature and transcend not only electoral outcomes but the lives of individuals and institutions. This is much of the source of both the movement's resilience and its development of a vast capacity to move people and shape events to raise up leaders, and to field effective organizations able to wage electoral campaigns at all levels and effectively use the process of state ballot initiatives to drive wedge issues and, ultimately, their legislative and constitutional agenda.

That is why the Religious Right will be a major factor in American politics for at least as long as the life of anyone reading these words.

Meanwhile, to get a sense of where things stand, let's look at an album of snapshots of what is happening on the ground, in the states, where most of American political life and government takes place. But before we do, let's begin at the beginning.

The Defining Moment of the Culture Wars

"My friends, this election is about much more than who gets what," Pat Buchanan declared in his famously inflammatory speech at the 1992 GOP national convention. "It is about who we are. It is about what we believe. It is about what we stand for as Americans. There is a religious war going on in our country for the soul of America. It is a cultural war, as critical to the kind of nation we will one day be as was the Cold War itself."

He denounced the "radical feminism" of Bill and Hillary Clinton, stating that their "agenda would impose on America -- abortion on demand, a litmus test for the Supreme Court, homosexual rights, discrimination against religious schools, women in combat -- that's change, all right. But it is not the kind of change America wants. It is not the kind of change America needs. And it is not the kind of change we can tolerate in a nation that we still call God's country."

If this sounds familiar, it is because little has changed since these words were shouted to the world on prime-time television.

Buchanan's speech epitomizes the Religious Right's general view of the "culture war" -- as a "religious war" that manifests itself on many "cultural" fronts, most urgently abortion, homosexuality (especially, now, marriage equality), education privatization and curriculum content of the public schools.


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Don't Fight Fire With Fire
[Report this comment]
Posted by: AlexLawyer on Dec 25, 2008 12:34 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Most of the Christian Right is neither. It stands diametrically opposed to Jesus's teachings on love, compassion, forgiveness, social justice, nonjudgmentalism, and nonviolence, and it is obsessed with abortion and homosexuality, both of which were common in the Roman Empire of Jesus's day and neither of which is he recorded as condemning.

It's also true that the vast majority of them are profoundly antiscientific, bigoted, xenophobic, jingoistic, militaristic and vicious. It's their support that made the entire Bush debacle, and the military, economic and environmental crises possible.

However, we'll convert very few of them to our way of thinking, and preaching to our choir doesn't accomplish much. We need the antivenom of logical, patient, persuasive and temperate dialogue to reduce their noxious influence on the majority of moderate Americans and perhaps take some of the fire out of their bellies.

We shouldn't follow their example and become hateful and strident; the best remedy for their toxins is a soothing balm of fact, logic, common sense, humor and equanimity.

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» RE: Don't Fight Fire With Fire Posted by: AlteredStates
» USE A FLAME THROWER!! Posted by: walldodger1969
» RE: USE A FLAME THROWER!! Posted by: brunowe
» RE: USE A FLAME THROWER!! Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Don't Fight Fire With Fire Posted by: setterwoman
» RE: Don't Fight Fire With Fire Posted by: Dr. P. Mooney
» Boy, you got us pegged Posted by: wolfgangmo
» You might be surprised. Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: Simps don't do humor.... Posted by: zootlux
» RE: Simps don't do humor.... Posted by: 2thepoint
» Thanks Lauren Posted by: marid
» RE: Thanks Lauren Posted by: Lauren
» ohhhhhhhhh stfu and turn off Hannity Posted by: texasrodeoqueen
» We could be headed this way, folks.... Posted by: texasrodeoqueen
» RE: Don't Fight Fire With Fire Posted by: bluepilgrim
» RE: Don't Fight Fire With Fire Posted by: helenwheels
» RE: Don't Fight Fire With Fire Posted by: bluepilgrim
» RE: Don't Fight Fire With Fire Posted by: texasrodeoqueen
» RE: Don't Fight Fire With Fire Posted by: bigfoot 13ee
» RE: Don't Fight Fire With Fire Posted by: texasrodeoqueen
» RE: Don't Fight Fire With Fire Posted by: AlexLawyer
» RE: Don't Fight Fire With Fire Posted by: Proteus OH

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Religious fundamentalism
[Report this comment]
Posted by: eaanders on Dec 25, 2008 2:27 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
After 2000 years one would think that we would have made some progress toward thinking rationally. But, religion is a powerful drug, and you can't stop people from believing what they want to believe. In that sense religion is a part of reality.

Even when Christian fundamentalists see a more extreme example of what religious fundamentalism can lead to in the Islamic world, they seem even more keen to embrace fundamentalism rather than moderate their beliefs in their own religion. Religious extremism will never be moderated as long as societies tolerate less extreme forms, because the nature of religion is faith and the more moderated religion is, the more it demonstrates a lack of faith. So in times of stress, religious people gravitate towards more strict forms to strengthen their faith.

As long as religion is allowed to go unchallenged it will persist because succeeding generations are inculcated with it's precepts from an early age. And in religious countries the state, the press and the culture reinforce the dogma. The only way out is for the secular minority to stop respecting religious people who attempt to evangelize and coerce others to conform to their religious beliefs, that is, those who wear their religion on their sleeve and want to see it made a part of law. And this is a very, very long term endeavor. We won't see much progress in our lifetimes, so chose your friends and prospective family carefully.

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» RE: eligious fundamentalism Posted by: lisafrequency
» Abortion and life Posted by: floridahank
» Hitler totally demonic Posted by: floridahank
» RE: Hitler totally demonic Posted by: Intellect
» a photo is worth a thousand words Posted by: texasrodeoqueen
» Photos can be worthless Posted by: floridahank
» Whatever. Posted by: EinMD
» How about Jesus Posted by: floridahank
» Hitler was NOT a Satanist Posted by: Scientz
» RE: eligious fundamentalism Posted by: Dr. P. Mooney

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In Sixty-two years of life I have learned one irrevocable lesson.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Nightstallion on Dec 25, 2008 4:04 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The so called Christian Right is neither. If that is not plain enough for you, or if you have trouble understanding it see your preacher and say the above to him and get him to explain it, I am done.

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me wishes
[Report this comment]
Posted by: sherman on Dec 25, 2008 4:05 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
we culd just turn the lions lose

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» RE: me wishes Posted by: 2thepoint
» Go make up Posted by: marid
» RE: me wishes Posted by: Dr. P. Mooney

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The Religious WRONG! So bored with their own Life, they try to RUIN yours!
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Ottomatic on Dec 25, 2008 4:48 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The BORED Again!
Where is the Peace and Compassion?
So much for being Christ like.
I call them Christ Lite.

For days after the Lamb kicked the
Bankers out of the Temple
He was Crucified!
BAILOUT!
In Two Thousand years what has changed?

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» Judgment time for the world? Posted by: floridahank
» RE: Judgment time and Your Image. Posted by: AlteredStates
» Don't blame God -- blame man Posted by: floridahank
» God, man and control Posted by: floridahank

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City vs. Rural
[Report this comment]
Posted by: bizeeb on Dec 25, 2008 5:09 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Take a look some time at the red county/blue county map sometime, and you'll find that (in general) cities are Democrat, small towns/rural are Republican.

www.usatoday.com/news/vote2000/cbc/map.htm

Also, if you have the time, I strongly urge anyone interested in the culture war to google:

david horsey, heartland

His article "What's So Great About the Heartland" eloquently makes the case that it really is a city vs. rural thing.

I think Abraham Lincoln's biggest error was just not letting the south go; good riddance! (I'm joking, I'm joking!) But seriously, as the recent election shows (McCain got 46% of the vote!), there is a HUGE cultural divide in this country and I'm not sure how, or if, it will ever be resolved.

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» RE: City vs. Rural Posted by: Lauren

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" People of the LIE"by H Scott Peck describes the religious right to the tee
[Report this comment]
Posted by: texasrodeoqueen on Dec 25, 2008 5:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Page 69: "The central defect of 'the evil' is not the sin but the refusal to acknowledge it. More often than not these people will be looked at as solid citizens. How can that be? How can they be evil and not designated as criminals? The key word is "designated". They are criminals in that they commit "crimes" against life and liveliness. But except in rare instances- such as in the case of Hitler when they might achieve extraordinary degrees of political power that remove them from ordinary restraints, their "crimes are so subtle and covert that they cannot clearly be designated as crimes. The theme of hiding and covertness will occur again and again throughout the rest of this book. It is the basis for the title "People of the Lie"."

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Saturnalia
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Posted by: brunowe on Dec 25, 2008 5:38 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a pagan of largely Italian descent, I like to hearken back to the old Roman holiday of Saturnalia, a Roman festival taking place in mid-December.

Apropos of Bart's "Santamas", I'm also partial to the interpretation of Jasmine, a character on the sadly-defunct comic Boondocks, believed that Christmas was about how Santa died for our gifts, but that he rose on Chrismtas day to forgive us our sins and give us eternal presents.

A Happy Christmahanakwanzakaa to all!

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» Merry Christmas.....n/t Posted by: 2thepoint

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And the "mainstream" media's helping them
[Report this comment]
Posted by: sausage on Dec 25, 2008 5:48 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just turned off the morning network news shows ABC Good Morning America, NBC Today, and there was a Graham on both, Billy's mannish daughter Ruth on the former and ex-junkie son Franklin on the latter. I think Rick Warren was on one or the morning shows too! But I turned over to Sports Center.

As long as the MSM lends credence and credibility to these clowns, we're saddled with them.

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» RE: C-SPAN Posted by: Lauren

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who said it's Christian?
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Posted by: chloelin on Dec 25, 2008 5:58 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Several comments mention the "Christian" Right and deny that it is Christian. While this is true enough, the article never uses the word, preferring Religious Right, which already implies the grossly un-Christian nature of the right. The phrase "Christian Right" only appears in the Editor's note and the sub-heading, which the author may not have written.

The Catholic Church gets no end of stick from progressives, who seem only familiar with the present Pope and other obscurantist figures. Bear in mind the "left wing" of the Church, found especially in South America and to some extent the Philippines. This is the church that has chosen the "preferential option for the poor", which takes the chronicled life of Jesus and his words as the basis for a radical political stand and much of whose work in support of the poor and unregarded is similar to the Quakers. Not a few, like Archbishop Romero, have been assassinated.

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» RE: who said it's Christian? Posted by: texasrodeoqueen
» For whom the Bell Tolls! Posted by: bobtr900
» Wrong is that's all you believe. Posted by: floridahank

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Hurting their own cause
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Posted by: Perry Logan on Dec 25, 2008 6:03 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Unfortunately, the religious right's "extraordinary infrastructure" seems to be hurting, if not outright destroying, their cause.

Setbacks such as Prop 8 notwithstanding, attitudes toward homosexuality, abortion, etc. are growing steadily more progressive in America.

Thug tactics tend to lose the hearts and minds of the people--something a real Christian could have told these degenerates.

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» RE: Hurting their own cause Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Hurting their own cause Posted by: AlexLawyer

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Why Evangelicals are allowed to hide behind 'Christianity'
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Purple Girl on Dec 25, 2008 6:48 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Gee lets See has humanity ever encountered other throughout history who have scorned scientific advances, placed moral judgement on Private lives an decisions, controlled and manipulated Gov't bodies? How about those with a Moral crusade to convert all of humanity to their doctrine. Who hold in reverence the idea of a battle between Good & Evil which acts as a catalyst to destruction for most, but salvation for some.
Jesus did not judge the outcasts, he did not condemn education or intellectual achievement,he did not convert others at the other end of a weapon, he never even claimed to Know when the end would come.
There are some Fundemental disagreements as to the Life & Teachings of Jesus which this those under the 'Chrisitian' Umbrella are starkly aware of.Thus allowing this particualr sect to weild influence and power over a Demcractic Free nation for 30 yrs is Unfair to all others who follow this theology.
Some of US raised in that tradition see Evangelicals as Operating FAR above their pay scale.We also consider them morbidly obsessed with St John's Revelations.Some are actually willing to kick the whole party off (Hagee's dreams of pre-emptive strike on Iran to set off Armegeddon).This Group scares the hell out of other Chrisitians- they are far too elated and proactive. this is NOT the Version of Christianity we want projected around the World...Still.
Evangelicals are not a 'Generic' form of Christianity, nor a Moderate form...they are the same Apocolyptic Daydreamers who have been around since the dawn of man. Their sick facination with judgement, destruction and damnation reflects Badly On US.
Couldn't we finally have a positive, uplifting, Unifying Spiritual voice - one that reflects our Hopes, not our Fears.
Rick Warren is Not Wrong, Any Evangelical Would be Wrong.
And for those Evangelicals who beg to differ, that's my perception of the Faith, so you have a bit of a PR Problem...Because Perception is everything and you guys are a little scary.

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Is it religion or punk for the overweight?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: grindermonkey on Dec 25, 2008 7:28 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is not a religion. It is a social club for people whose vanity knows no bounds. If Jesus was pictured as an awesomely overweight porker would his message have been remembered? The unctuous libido of this group and their fixation with other people's sexuality replaces their personal humanity and fixes them in a twisted, fascist mentality that ignores the very teachings they pay lip service to. Their costumes and pretentious humility do nothing to hide their venomous and distorted values and undisciplined appetites. Their constant whining and proselytizing pollutes the public air waves far beyond the confines of their tax exempt bunkers. Perhaps what they need is a good dose of government regulation to put them back on the straight and narrow.

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Wolves in sheep's clothing
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Posted by: luzmejor on Dec 25, 2008 8:00 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Although there are many essentially good people caught up in these self-congratulatory political drives, they are being fooled, as we all are, about the true meaning of these "hate thy neighbor" movements.

We should all forcefully point out that their actual ends are total right-wing social and political power. Slavery is bound to result.

Christianity is being highjacked to bring about a Nazi form of government power in the same way that the Germans attempted in the 1930s, which led to the horror of WWII.

Citizens, we never want to repeat that experience in this nuclear age!

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» RE: Wolves in sheep's clothing Posted by: avidAmerican

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Education is the Antidote to the Mind Poison of Religion
[Report this comment]
Posted by: drricklippin on Dec 25, 2008 8:17 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a declared spiritual humanist who believes in "a source" I am aware of the toxic mind poison of organized religion on our most vulnerable -our world's youth.

Worlwide healthy childhood education is the only antidote to this poison-see David Boulton's remarkable work

Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton,Pa

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Barbara, Michigan
[Report this comment]
Posted by: avidAmerican on Dec 25, 2008 8:30 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The far right need to call off their faked outrage. There is no War on Christmas, and not even a War on Religion, except in their own minds. Just like the typical Republicans, they use made-up, faked, outrage hiding behind their religion. Shame on them for "using" their religion like that, and so blasphemous, that's a sin, remember?

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» RE: Barbara, Michigan Posted by: helenwheels

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Ignorance
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Posted by: edgeofnowhere on Dec 25, 2008 8:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
can be cured, but stupidity can not. We will always have a "religious" right.

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Nazi Watch
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Posted by: jmmartin on Dec 25, 2008 9:03 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Frederick's piece is downright scary, especially the bit about The Call, "a national parachurch youth organization of growing significance." You note that the group helped pass Prop 8 and that Dobson and Perkins are wont to refer to them as "martyrs" and predicted there would come a time when "we will have to risk our lives."

Hey, folks! Who do these Dangerous Lunatics sound like? (1) Taliban, (2) Al Quaeda, (3) Hitler's "Youth Group" or (4) all of the above.
Guess.

The Nazis were a religion. This is how it is done, folks. The theocrats' principal objective is a thing they call "Dominion": the earth ruled by Jebus, and then there will be a big vanishing act by True Believers called "The Rapture."

These D.L.'s are trying to hurry us up so that they can start the Final Event, whose equivalence in modern Jihadism is self-annihilation by i.e.d. These folks are not playing with full decks.

To paraphrase Woody Allen, I don't fear Armageddon, I just don't want to be there when it happens.

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» RE: Nazi Watch Posted by: helenwheels

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We have had these Christian Nazis in Texas Almost Forever...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: joeocho88 on Dec 25, 2008 9:12 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These damned people have made my life a living HELL but I will admit that their ideas have been good for the Texas economy because so many other people keep coming here --and bringing the very things that cause them to LEAVE their home states with them! Be cause of their alleged superior educations back where they come from, THEY TAKE ALL OF THE JOBS THAT NATIVE BORN TEXANS LIKE ME WOULD HAVE!
I can remember when it was DANGEROUS to be a Jew or a Catholic because this PROTESTANT GROUP of BIGOTS, Witchburner wannabes, gay bashers and HATERS and KU KLUX KLANNERS and anti-Jewish people were in TOTAL CONTROL of the State. I remember having to protect the Catholic Church with a shotgun because "they" wanted to BURN IT DOWN!
Just WHO THE HELL ARE THEY TO TELL THE REST OF US HOW TO LIVE! THEY THEMSELVES ARE HYPOCRITES! LIKE THE LIMOUSINE LIBERALS who want to impose Third World lifestyles on the REST of us, these so-called "CHRISTIANS" want to impose a religious-based law like the TALIBAN only with THEIR interpretation of the Bible! I was wondering why they professed such hatred for the Taliban and El Quidah when their rules for us would be the same only in English. Think women have a problem under ISLAMIC LAW? Try growing up being a WOMAN in TEXAS -EAST TEXAS,especially. NO HUMAN RIGHTS! IF you are a Mexican American or indigenous woman in South Texas, MACHISMO rules supreme.There are BEATINGS and MURDERS of WOMEN with NO consequences and forced CHILD BEARING until teeth and various body parts literally fall out! WE combine the worst of the worst aspects of the Patron system and the Slavery system here regarding rights of workers to a living wage! Those who fought to get labor unions here GOT BLACKLISTED! There must be something wrong with Labor Unions up north because MOST of the jobs went offshore and when you are competing with SLAVE LABOR in CHINESE PRISON CAMPS... you better learn the rules of the ( EXPLETIVE DELETEDS) in the cotton patch and tolerate the EVIL of the system OR we have NO jobs!( They call it " toe the line" here)And they have a system of NEPOTISM and FRIEND OF FRIEND hiring preferences here where if you are not a WASP of their religion or privileged male, then you had better have one to speak up for you or refer you otherwise YOU WILL NOT WORK AT A JOB THAT PAYS ANYWHERE CLOSE TO A LIVING WAGE!EVEN THE MOST MENIAL JOBS HERE ARE DOLED OUT TO THOSE WHO ARE MINDFUL OF THEIR "PLACE" in these people's twisted, inhumane and bizarre world! ( It's NOT WHAT you know it is WHO you know!) We would be much further along technologically and economically had this cruel, discriminatory way of hiring NOT been in place for these many years. It is how they insure COMPLIANCE! And they have cops to keep you moving along once you are dispossessed of your wages, your home and your basic human rights. YOU CEASE TO EXIST AS A HUMAN BEING!

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Merry Christmas at the AlterNet Cafe
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Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars on Dec 25, 2008 9:14 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I swear if the AlterNet was a restaurant it would be wide open on Christmas day. I'm starting to think, the AlterNet is just getting mad for having to pay its employees time and a half today.

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When Someone Else's MYTHS become FACTS, WE HAVE TROUBLE, FOLKS.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: joeocho88 on Dec 25, 2008 9:26 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When these Christians began killing and confiscating property in the name of JESUS which they did to my Shefard relatives in Spain and my NATIVE AMERICAN relatives here and justified it on the BASIS of THEIR RELIGION,THEIR MYTH, it is very hard to believe that any good can come of this.

When they want to bring about this "RAPTURE" where all believers are met in Heaven by angels flying space ships and taken to be with Jesus where He will reign for 1,000 --the exact length of time HITLER'S REICH aka THE NEW WORLD ORDER was supposed to last...

I am wondering why these people are still allowed to spew their hate speech and propaganda and to DEMAND that their FICTION, and BAD SCIENCE FICTION and FUTURISM it is, be accepted as FACT while they try to annihilate the human rights of others and DESTROY other RELIGIONS!

Anybody who falls for this needs to be in a mental institution or in prison so they can't harm the rest of us and they can babble and rant and rave their deranged hallucinations to a secure wall!

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» You're confused in your statement Posted by: floridahank

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The scariest thing in the world....
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Oracle2020 on Dec 25, 2008 9:36 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This......is frightening. Absolutely frightening. I always knew that things were bad, that the US had its large pockets and potholes of bad, but this....shows just how prevalent it is.

If the US continues like this, it reverses every iota of social, political and cultural progress it has ever made, and ever been known for. Creationists actually having political leeway? Private religious schools? Rabid anti-feminism? Watch it, guys. This is looking a lot like those other, fundaMENTAList countries out there...the ones you claim as your enemy.

(I have a best friend living with her american husband and newborn in the States. If this is how things are going to be...I worry about that baby's future. And my friend will be the first one packing, too, if things get that bad (re:stupid).)

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I really wish the "Rapture" would hurry up and get these wingnuts off the planet....
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Animal on Dec 25, 2008 10:13 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And leave the rest of us in peace.

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For all the AlterNet Posters....
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Quannah on Dec 25, 2008 10:39 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Happy Holidays!

Merry Christmas!

Happy Hanukkah!

Wonderous Winter Solstice!

Joyful Kwanza!

Boisterous Festivus!

Thanks to all of you for a very interesting year on AlterNet!!!

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Ignorant, incurious, apathetic, and obstinate
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Posted by: willymack on Dec 25, 2008 11:06 AM   
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As one writer stated, all these can be cured, with the possible exception of incurious, with a first-rate education. I'm with him(her?) on the stupid part. I don't claim my opinion on STUPID is a scientific one, but it seems we're born with all the intelligence we'll ever have, and if you're a dim bulb at birth, that's how you'll live your life, without curiosity and succeptible to any number of scams. As we all know there are always those, ready and willing to take advantage of the dim bulbs, and bend them to their will. Let's keep one thing in mind; the dullards and the parasites who prey on them are NOT IN THE MAJORITY. They only seem to be because they make a lot of noise, what with their pretensions of moral superiority, supposedly derived from one form of religious dogma or another. Even the dim bulbs can see through this crap if they're properly educated. They're not bad people, just ignorant, incurious, apathetic, and obstinate.

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HOW TO STOP THE RELIGIOUS NUTJOBS..........
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Posted by: Docent on Dec 25, 2008 11:14 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Take away their tax exemption! It's about time that the government stop giving passes to religions and start taxing some of their income, properties and businesses.

If we continue to give them a free ride on taxes, this country will turn into a theocracy - Let the bastions of religion start paying taxes like the rest of us.

This country was founded on the separation of church and state. By letting them off the hook and not taxing them, they are using their profits to interfere with our freedom and to march to their drumbeat of their beliefs. Be
aware - be very aware!

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justgreenleaf
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Posted by: justgreenleaf on Dec 25, 2008 11:20 AM   
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Jesus would say, and in fact did say--"Many have spoken in my name, but I know them not."
He would also say about LGBT, the religious right, the progressive left, and everybody in between--"Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do."
To know God's will, just be quiet and listen.

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» God's will for us --I disagree Posted by: floridahank
» RE: But Hank the scriptures were Posted by: floridahank
» More archeological proof. Posted by: floridahank
» RE: The only sins Posted by: Jo1028
» RE: The only sins Posted by: Lauren
» RE: justgreenleaf Posted by: Lauren

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keep All Your Damn beliefs to youselves
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Posted by: mindtrvlr on Dec 25, 2008 11:21 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
IF everybody would just let everyone else alone and believe what they wanted and quit trying to force your or their beliefs on the rest of us, the world would be a hell of a lot better off. I don't give a damn what my neighbor does inside or outside his home, as long as it doesn't interfere with my free rights. Everyone needs to mind their own damn business. If I go to hell for what I believe or they goto hell for what they believe,.So be it. ENOUGH SAID/QUIT YOUR USELESS ARGUING.

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» A dangerous viewpoint Posted by: floridahank
» RE: A dangerous viewpoint Posted by: yesman

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WHAT IS IT ABOUT RELIGION?
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Posted by: shd1230 on Dec 25, 2008 12:09 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is it that causes people to want to force their version of faith in a supernatural being or beings on other people? Why should my belief in a supreme supernatural being interfere with the lives of my fellow men and women?

A couple of millenia ago there lived in Nazareth a Hebrew male who was called Jesus, or Yeshua, or Joshua, depending on how one translates the name. His mother was a teen-aged girl who quite possibly was impregnated by a Roman soldier while betrothed to an older man called Joseph. When he was thirty years old this man became an itinerant preacher and teacher who came to be well known and respected for the next three years. He began drawing such a crowd of followers and admirers that the religious leaders of the Jewish community were worried that he might foment an uprising against their Roman rulers, and by doing so bring down the wrath of the Emperor on their heads. So, to rid themselves of the menace, they charged him with political crimes and put him to death by the barbaric method of crucifixion.

Now some of his followers had already decided that this man was the "Messiah'" that is, the prophesied leader or king of the Hebrews that would one day come to deliver them from bondage. During the first hundred years after his death, the legend grew: he was born of a virgin, he rose from the dead and appeared to his disciples, he ascended to heaven, and would come again very soon in a cloud of glory to rescue his people.

This is where it began--in the Middle East where Abraham had encountered his Yahweh and where later Mohammed would meet his Allah. Of course none of this makes any sense at all in today's world where, when it comes to the origins of the universe and the creation of life, there is only one answer avilable at present: WE DON'T KNOW!

And so much evil has been done, so many humans have died, so many battles fought--all over something that WE DON'T KNOW.

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» RE: WHAT IS IT ABOUT RELIGION? Posted by: floridahank
» Like to see your evidence Posted by: floridahank

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Satan Claws Is Coming To Town
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Posted by: HoboHomo on Dec 25, 2008 2:29 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You better come out, you better not lie,
You better not doubt, so open your fly:
Satan Claws is coming to town!

She knows when you are f*cking,
She knows when you dump a heap,
She knows if you are straight or gay,
So be queer or take a leap!
Oh, Satan Claws is coming to town!

She's gettin' real pissed,
Nails ready to slice,
Gonna scratch out those hetero lice!
Oh, Satan Claws is coming to town!

She knows how you are voting,
She knows when you bash a fag,
She knows if you hate homos
(And to Hell you shall be dragged)!
Oh, Satan Claws is coming to town!

She's ready to hiss,
She's ready to strike,
Gonna show who she hates or she likes,
Oh, Satan Claws is coming to town!

She knows what you are thinking,
She knows what is in your heart,
And if you are a homophobe
She'll rip your lungs apart!
Oh, Satan Claws is coming to town!

She's flickin' her wrist
Straight into your hearts,
Gonna wipe out you hetero farts!
Oh, Satan Claws is coming to town!


--
Zeke Krahlin (Jehovah's Queer Witness)
http://ezekielk.tblog.com

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Totally correct
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Posted by: yesman on Dec 25, 2008 3:03 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The reactionary, vicious forces of the religious right aren't going anywhere and aren't about to give up.

Yes, Obama was able to deal them a major political defeat this year, but he was an extraordinary candidate in an extraordinary year. Even if he's successful and serves two terms, what then? How many Obamas do we expect to have on hand, versus how many bigoted pastors dripping with money and possessed of significant rhetorical skilll?

These people cannot be ignored or reasoned with (they reject reason as a tool of the devil). They must be defeated. They are our internal Taliban and al-Qaeda. Just substitute "God" or "Jesus" for "Allah" or "Mohammed." The fact that their "message" is a complete perversion of Christian teaching matters no more than the fact that bin Laden and his ilk contort the teachings of Islam. Both must be defeated, along with any other permutation of religious fundamentalism.

The question is, "What is the most effective strategy to use in combatting them?" Indiscriminate violence is no more likely to be effective against the Christian fundamentalists than it has been against al-Qaeda. That's their tactic.

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» What's success? Posted by: floridahank

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Try the truth and wisdom, instead of politics, atheism, etc...
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Posted by: SevenStarHand on Dec 25, 2008 3:39 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Never know, perhaps their end is closer than you or they might imagine...

Here is Wisdom...

Peace now, or else...

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Yep, the Religious Right give religion a bad rap.
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Posted by: maxpayne on Dec 25, 2008 4:04 PM   
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Don't limit this to Christians alone. This could easily applied to Muslims, Hindus, Judaism, etc ...

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parrotuya
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Posted by: parrotuya on Dec 25, 2008 4:52 PM   
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I hope the religious wackos decline with the stock market and that Rick Warren dies a horrible death on the way to D.C.

DOWn, baby, DOWn!

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» RE: parrotuya Posted by: texasrodeoqueen

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Family & Friends
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Posted by: Lupin65 on Dec 25, 2008 5:10 PM   
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I have friends and close family members who are pretty much beholden to the religious right. They get me pretty upset sometimes when I talk about my views on marriage equality sometimes I just ignore them but they keep spouting there "Fixed News" beliefs at me. one of my friends says that gays should have basically no rights because they choose an alternative lifestyle. I personally believe that being gay is not a choice, but even if it is that is no reason for separate but equal statis. One of my religious right friends is so intent on brainwashing their child that if you even mention evolution you get shot down this is one of the same people that believe that they shouldn't play god, but they are willing to do it to their child. God bless the south. Oh well i have rambled enough hope all the alternet people have a good holiday season.

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» RE: Family & Friends Posted by: Lauren

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As A Papal Legate Once Said...
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Posted by: Nebris on Dec 25, 2008 5:46 PM   
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Kill them all. God will know His own.

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RE: Jesus
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Posted by: texasrodeoqueen on Dec 25, 2008 8:12 PM   
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Amen! Jesus, please save us from these evil people professing to follow you and spewing hatred and evil. We ask this in your name. Amen

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RE: Jesus
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Posted by: litebug on Dec 25, 2008 8:56 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Excuse me, but celebrations and observances at this time of year precede Christianity. I get so tired of Christians thinking they own this holiday. In fact, Jesus was probably born in spring. Early Christians co-opted the pagan Solstice. I have always celebrated the season as a cultural event. Christmas trees, Santa and Rudolph have nothing to do with Christianity. On the whole (there are a few, damned few, exceptions) Christians are the most over-bearing, hypocritical, obnoxious bunch of people that ever walked the face of the Earth. They just can't keep it to and among themselves. They are always trying to tell other people how to live, what to do with their sexual organs and how to arrange their families. I don't think organized Christianity has anything much at all to do with Jesus. In fact, I think he'd be horrified and very angry at what is done in his name. There is little, if any, difference between Christian fundamentalists and the Taliban other than the Taliban has achieved the kind of power the Christians here are still trying for.

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Jesus said this would happen
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Posted by: jobeob on Dec 25, 2008 7:21 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
After reading many of the comments on this article I am reminded of when Jesus said in
John 16:2 "They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God."(NIV) So who will the true Christians be killed by? Will it be the hawkish Evangelicals the backed the invasion of Iraq or the "enlightened" types that make up forums like this who try to save us from our ignorance and superstition. Because people that believe Christ when he said "blessed are the peacemakers" over George Bush's lies about weapons of mass destruction that aren't patriotic enough. And Christians that see homosexuality as a sin because the Bible defines it as such (I Cor 6:9) or that see embryos as people that have rights too just aren’t' enlightened enough to deserve life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

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Hate speech?
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Posted by: violawall on Dec 26, 2008 7:08 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When did having an apposing view become hate speech? Most of these comments are way over the top! Grow up!!! Liberals, I mean progressives, push their own agendas on everyone just like they claim the religious right do. They indoctrinate hate America and political correctness in pubic schools instead of teaching math, science, english and unbiased liberal history. It is embarrassing how stupid our children our graduating from high school and college. Liberals are the ones that are ruining our once grand country! As for the comment about it's the cities against the ignorant rural areas! Hogwash! If you would look at demographics around huge cities, the dreaded burbs, they vote primarily Republican. They are mostly well educated hard working people. Now lets look at the big cities. They are primarily uneducated and have their hands out waiting for the government to save them. Yes, there are some poor rural areas that vote Republican. However, there are an awful lot of them that vote Democrat as well for the same reason. They have there hand out waiting for their government check. That's reality! Vi

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» RE: Poor Viola? Posted by: Jo1028
» Oh I see... Posted by: Thucy

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Grassroots strength from Ab-only
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Posted by: Jo1028 on Dec 26, 2008 8:49 AM   
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Clarkson mentions the grassroots strength of the religious right - but what most taxpayers don't know is that we have been funding this grassroots effort with abstinence-only tax money for the last 8 years - Most of the contractees getting this money have been religious right groups and they've used it to expand and grow their political activities at the local level. - All illegally of course - but the Bush administration let them get away with it as it supported their base. A first priority for Obama is to cut off the ab-only money - since it's also been proven ineffective in promoting abstinence!

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The spirit of
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Posted by: Micah on Dec 26, 2008 8:34 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The spirit of Christmas must reign this season. People must forget for a while their problems. This holiday all stores are open for sale. Instead of thinking of war or the dirty politics, why not go for a walk, breathe some fresh air, go to the malls and buy something for you love ones. Christmas is here that's why giving gifts is a sign that you have remember your love one for this special occasion. If you don't have money there's no need to worry because payday loan is here to assist you in your financial problem. Read more on payday loan article..

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biochemurgic
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Posted by: biochemurgic on Dec 27, 2008 8:36 AM   
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Falwell is dead and the other elders of this movement (Robertson, Dobson) will soon pass from the scene. Like other Americans in their age group, younger evangelicals have grown up in an era when tolerance in social matters is the expectation rather than the exception. As time goes on and the older leaders are replaced by the next generation, I suspect there will be less nonsense about opposing marriage equality, "curing" gays, etc.

Similarly, younger evangicals have grown up in an era where concern for the environment is the norm. That is already having an impact, with a significant number of evangelicals finding biblical reasons (e.g., stewardship of creation) to take up the fight for environmental protection generally and climate change mitigation specifically.

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» RE: biochemurgic Posted by: Lauren

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A Plug for PRA and its online publication The Public Eye.
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Posted by: yellow on Dec 29, 2008 5:35 PM   
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I just can't say enough about PRA and The Public Eye. Chip Berlett is great. I want to call attention to a great ten part PRA/Public Eye series on the Federal Reserve Bank written by economics professor Ed Flaherty. It convincingly debunks every single myth that conspiracy mongers distract people with about America's central bank. Economic Justice activists need to read and study the entire series to get ammo to fight the far right. In the tough, ongoing battle against fascist propaganda in the US, PRA/Public Eye is leader of the highest rank.

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Culture War or Class War?
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Posted by: Lauren on Dec 30, 2008 9:48 AM   
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Culture War or Class War?

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» RE: Dick Cheney Posted by: Lauren

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Dangerous people...
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Posted by: philipcfromnyc on Dec 31, 2008 12:25 PM   
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It is almost impossible to overstate the danger that religious fundamentalists pose to the very concept of participatory democracy in the USA.

Fundamentalists tend to be people who have serious difficulties dealing with the vagaries of life; they tend to see issues in terms of black and white, and rely heavily on pre-digested concepts of right and wrong. As individuals, fundamentalists find it extremely difficult to process new and unfamiliar social developments; when confronted with issues such as abortion and equal rights for gay persons, fundamentalists tend to become extremely frightened, and rely on religious dogma and rank superstition (cloaked in the guise of religious teaching) to navigate such issues. Groupthink is frequently a characteristic embraced by fundamentalists, who argue that the Bible (or the Quran, etc.) is the “inerrant word of God.” Clinical psychologists refer to such cognitive processes using terms such as "concretism of thinking."

It is so much easier to rely on the teachings of a religion than it is to think for oneself.

Fundamentalists believe that God is behind them, and that the teachings of their religion are an adequate substitute for reason and ethical judgment. Consequently, they dismiss concepts such as participatory democracy, constitutional law, and majority rule as “the works of man.”

I have no objection to people practicing their religion – but when they attempt to inscribe their religious beliefs into law and public policy, then I cry foul. The Mormons were responsible for flooding the State of California with more than four of every five dollars that were spent pushing through the obscene state constitutional amendment known as “Proposition 8.” Now this group has the unmitigated gall – the audacity – to call upon the gay community for “healing” and conciliation. May those who promoted Proposition 8 rot in hell.

Fortunately, younger people tend to be less prone to religious contamination than are older people. Jerry Falwell, James Kennedy, and others of that stripe are now dead. Overwhelmingly, younger people tend to be much more accepting of issues such as gay marriage than are older people. Most younger voters in California voted against Proposition 8, and this trend was also reflected in other states where issues such as gay marriage were put to the voters.

I am currently doing business in the UK, and the differences between UK society and US society are profound. I don’t think that it is a coincidence that the more enlightened attitudes of people in the UK exist in a society that is much less religious than is the USA. Here in the UK, the issue of gay marriage was decided in all but name with the introduction of “civil partnerships,” which are very different from civil unions in US states such as Vermont. Civil partnerships in the UK carry with them all of the benefits and responsibilities of marriage, whereas civil unions in the USA do not grant to those persons who enter into such unions the 1,049 rights and privileges accorded married couples under federal law. Civil partnerships in the UK place gay relationships on a substantively identical footing as heterosexual marriages. Gay UK citizens can sponsor foreign nationals under immigration laws if they enter into civil partnerships; gay UK citizens in these partnerships enjoy the same tax, inheritance, and other benefits as do heterosexual, married couples. The lack of an organized “evangelical” movement is not, in my personal opinion, unrelated to the increased acceptance that gay persons enjoy in the UK.

The vast majority of fundamentalists tend to be Republicans. I am hopeful that the trouncing this party has just received, both in Congress and in terms of losing the Presidency, will do even more to marginalize this group.

PHILIP

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Continued...
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Posted by: philipcfromnyc on Jan 1, 2009 12:35 PM   
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I remind you that the highest law of the land is not the Bible -- it is the Constitution of the United States. The US Supreme Court overturned Bowers v. Hardwick, 478 U.S. 186 (1986) (an obscene decision permitting the states to throw people such as me into prision merely for having gay sex) in Lawrence v. Texas, 539 U.S. 558 (2003). In Lawrence, the Court acknowledged that it had made a serious mistake in Bowers, which it bluntly and expressly overruled ("Bowers was not correct when it was decided, and it is not correct today. It ought not to remain binding precedent. Bowers v. Hardwick should be and now is overruled."). The Court made it clear that it had made a grave and insulting mistake in handing down Bowers, and declared that gay persons are entitled to respect for their private lives. ("Had those who drew and ratified the Due Process Clauses of the Fifth Amendment or the Fourteenth Amendment known the components of liberty in its manifold possibilities, they might have been more specific. They did not presume to have this insight. They knew times can blind us to certain truths and later generations can see that laws once thought necessary and proper in fact serve only to oppress. As the Constitution endures, persons in every generation can invoke its principles in their own search for greater freedom.")

You opine that gay marriage is an abomination in the eyes of God. I am not religious, and I deeply resent efforts by persons such as you to inscribe your religious beliefs into law and public policy in a country which is secular in its government. I am every bit as entitled as you to seek and to find love and happiness -- and you have neither the right, nor any invitation, to dictate to me the terms upon which I may find such happiness.

I am hopeful that the California Supreme Court will overturn the monstrous state constitutional amendment known as "Proposition 8." From a legal standpoint, this amendment is literally analogous to an amendment withdrawing the right to marry from Catholics only, or from black persons only. (The California Supreme Court held, in in re Marriage Cases, 43 Cal.4th 757 (2008), that classifications on the basis of sexual orientation are "suspect," meaning that they are presumptively unconstitutional, rendering them acceptable only if they are able to survive the rigorous standard of judicial review known as "strict scrutiny." This places such classifications on the same footing as classifications on the basis of race or religion.)

If you do not accept gay marriages, then don't get married to a person of the same sex! If you don't believe that gay sex is acceptable, then stop having gay sex! But kindly refrain from imposing your religious beliefs on me.

We do not live in a theocracy. We live in a diverse constitutional democracy, in which the rights of minorities are protected by the courts. Fundamentalists are absolutely entitled to live their lives on their own terms.

I respectfully ask -- no, demand -- that you extend to me the same courtesy.


PHILIP CHANDLER

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Don't Fight Fire With Fire
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Posted by: AlexLawyer on Dec 25, 2008 12:34 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Most of the Christian Right is neither. It stands diametrically opposed to Jesus's teachings on love, compassion, forgiveness, social justice, nonjudgmentalism, and nonviolence, and it is obsessed with abortion and homosexuality, both of which were common in the Roman Empire of Jesus's day and neither of which is he recorded as condemning.

It's also true that the vast majority of them are profoundly antiscientific, bigoted, xenophobic, jingoistic, militaristic and vicious. It's their support that made the entire Bush debacle, and the military, economic and environmental crises possible.

However, we'll convert very few of them to our way of thinking, and preaching to our choir doesn't accomplish much. We need the antivenom of logical, patient, persuasive and temperate dialogue to reduce their noxious influence on the majority of moderate Americans and perhaps take some of the fire out of their bellies.

We shouldn't follow their example and become hateful and strident; the best remedy for their toxins is a soothing balm of fact, logic, common sense, humor and equanimity.

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» RE: Don't Fight Fire With Fire Posted by: AlteredStates
» USE A FLAME THROWER!! Posted by: walldodger1969
» RE: USE A FLAME THROWER!! Posted by: brunowe
» RE: USE A FLAME THROWER!! Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Don't Fight Fire With Fire Posted by: setterwoman
» RE: Don't Fight Fire With Fire Posted by: Dr. P. Mooney
» Boy, you got us pegged Posted by: wolfgangmo
» You might be surprised. Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: Simps don't do humor.... Posted by: zootlux
» RE: Simps don't do humor.... Posted by: 2thepoint
» Thanks Lauren Posted by: marid
» RE: Thanks Lauren Posted by: Lauren
» ohhhhhhhhh stfu and turn off Hannity Posted by: texasrodeoqueen
» We could be headed this way, folks.... Posted by: texasrodeoqueen
» RE: Don't Fight Fire With Fire Posted by: bluepilgrim
» RE: Don't Fight Fire With Fire Posted by: helenwheels
» RE: Don't Fight Fire With Fire Posted by: bluepilgrim
» RE: Don't Fight Fire With Fire Posted by: texasrodeoqueen
» RE: Don't Fight Fire With Fire Posted by: bigfoot 13ee
» RE: Don't Fight Fire With Fire Posted by: texasrodeoqueen
» RE: Don't Fight Fire With Fire Posted by: AlexLawyer
» RE: Don't Fight Fire With Fire Posted by: Proteus OH

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Religious fundamentalism
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Posted by: eaanders on Dec 25, 2008 2:27 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
After 2000 years one would think that we would have made some progress toward thinking rationally. But, religion is a powerful drug, and you can't stop people from believing what they want to believe. In that sense religion is a part of reality.

Even when Christian fundamentalists see a more extreme example of what religious fundamentalism can lead to in the Islamic world, they seem even more keen to embrace fundamentalism rather than moderate their beliefs in their own religion. Religious extremism will never be moderated as long as societies tolerate less extreme forms, because the nature of religion is faith and the more moderated religion is, the more it demonstrates a lack of faith. So in times of stress, religious people gravitate towards more strict forms to strengthen their faith.

As long as religion is allowed to go unchallenged it will persist because succeeding generations are inculcated with it's precepts from an early age. And in religious countries the state, the press and the culture reinforce the dogma. The only way out is for the secular minority to stop respecting religious people who attempt to evangelize and coerce others to conform to their religious beliefs, that is, those who wear their religion on their sleeve and want to see it made a part of law. And this is a very, very long term endeavor. We won't see much progress in our lifetimes, so chose your friends and prospective family carefully.

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» RE: eligious fundamentalism Posted by: lisafrequency
» Abortion and life Posted by: floridahank
» Hitler totally demonic Posted by: floridahank
» RE: Hitler totally demonic Posted by: Intellect
» a photo is worth a thousand words Posted by: texasrodeoqueen
» Photos can be worthless Posted by: floridahank
» Whatever. Posted by: EinMD
» How about Jesus Posted by: floridahank
» Hitler was NOT a Satanist Posted by: Scientz
» RE: eligious fundamentalism Posted by: Dr. P. Mooney

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In Sixty-two years of life I have learned one irrevocable lesson.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Nightstallion on Dec 25, 2008 4:04 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The so called Christian Right is neither. If that is not plain enough for you, or if you have trouble understanding it see your preacher and say the above to him and get him to explain it, I am done.

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me wishes
[Report this comment]
Posted by: sherman on Dec 25, 2008 4:05 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
we culd just turn the lions lose

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» RE: me wishes Posted by: 2thepoint
» Go make up Posted by: marid
» RE: me wishes Posted by: Dr. P. Mooney

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The Religious WRONG! So bored with their own Life, they try to RUIN yours!
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Ottomatic on Dec 25, 2008 4:48 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The BORED Again!
Where is the Peace and Compassion?
So much for being Christ like.
I call them Christ Lite.

For days after the Lamb kicked the
Bankers out of the Temple
He was Crucified!
BAILOUT!
In Two Thousand years what has changed?

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» Judgment time for the world? Posted by: floridahank
» RE: Judgment time and Your Image. Posted by: AlteredStates
» Don't blame God -- blame man Posted by: floridahank
» God, man and control Posted by: floridahank

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City vs. Rural
[Report this comment]
Posted by: bizeeb on Dec 25, 2008 5:09 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Take a look some time at the red county/blue county map sometime, and you'll find that (in general) cities are Democrat, small towns/rural are Republican.

www.usatoday.com/news/vote2000/cbc/map.htm

Also, if you have the time, I strongly urge anyone interested in the culture war to google:

david horsey, heartland

His article "What's So Great About the Heartland" eloquently makes the case that it really is a city vs. rural thing.

I think Abraham Lincoln's biggest error was just not letting the south go; good riddance! (I'm joking, I'm joking!) But seriously, as the recent election shows (McCain got 46% of the vote!), there is a HUGE cultural divide in this country and I'm not sure how, or if, it will ever be resolved.

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» RE: City vs. Rural Posted by: Lauren

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" People of the LIE"by H Scott Peck describes the religious right to the tee
[Report this comment]
Posted by: texasrodeoqueen on Dec 25, 2008 5:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Page 69: "The central defect of 'the evil' is not the sin but the refusal to acknowledge it. More often than not these people will be looked at as solid citizens. How can that be? How can they be evil and not designated as criminals? The key word is "designated". They are criminals in that they commit "crimes" against life and liveliness. But except in rare instances- such as in the case of Hitler when they might achieve extraordinary degrees of political power that remove them from ordinary restraints, their "crimes are so subtle and covert that they cannot clearly be designated as crimes. The theme of hiding and covertness will occur again and again throughout the rest of this book. It is the basis for the title "People of the Lie"."

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Saturnalia
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Posted by: brunowe on Dec 25, 2008 5:38 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a pagan of largely Italian descent, I like to hearken back to the old Roman holiday of Saturnalia, a Roman festival taking place in mid-December.

Apropos of Bart's "Santamas", I'm also partial to the interpretation of Jasmine, a character on the sadly-defunct comic Boondocks, believed that Christmas was about how Santa died for our gifts, but that he rose on Chrismtas day to forgive us our sins and give us eternal presents.

A Happy Christmahanakwanzakaa to all!

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» Merry Christmas.....n/t Posted by: 2thepoint

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And the "mainstream" media's helping them
[Report this comment]
Posted by: sausage on Dec 25, 2008 5:48 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just turned off the morning network news shows ABC Good Morning America, NBC Today, and there was a Graham on both, Billy's mannish daughter Ruth on the former and ex-junkie son Franklin on the latter. I think Rick Warren was on one or the morning shows too! But I turned over to Sports Center.

As long as the MSM lends credence and credibility to these clowns, we're saddled with them.

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» RE: C-SPAN Posted by: Lauren

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who said it's Christian?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: chloelin on Dec 25, 2008 5:58 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Several comments mention the "Christian" Right and deny that it is Christian. While this is true enough, the article never uses the word, preferring Religious Right, which already implies the grossly un-Christian nature of the right. The phrase "Christian Right" only appears in the Editor's note and the sub-heading, which the author may not have written.

The Catholic Church gets no end of stick from progressives, who seem only familiar with the present Pope and other obscurantist figures. Bear in mind the "left wing" of the Church, found especially in South America and to some extent the Philippines. This is the church that has chosen the "preferential option for the poor", which takes the chronicled life of Jesus and his words as the basis for a radical political stand and much of whose work in support of the poor and unregarded is similar to the Quakers. Not a few, like Archbishop Romero, have been assassinated.

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» RE: who said it's Christian? Posted by: texasrodeoqueen
» For whom the Bell Tolls! Posted by: bobtr900
» Wrong is that's all you believe. Posted by: floridahank

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Hurting their own cause
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Posted by: Perry Logan on Dec 25, 2008 6:03 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Unfortunately, the religious right's "extraordinary infrastructure" seems to be hurting, if not outright destroying, their cause.

Setbacks such as Prop 8 notwithstanding, attitudes toward homosexuality, abortion, etc. are growing steadily more progressive in America.

Thug tactics tend to lose the hearts and minds of the people--something a real Christian could have told these degenerates.

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» RE: Hurting their own cause Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Hurting their own cause Posted by: AlexLawyer

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Why Evangelicals are allowed to hide behind 'Christianity'
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Purple Girl on Dec 25, 2008 6:48 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Gee lets See has humanity ever encountered other throughout history who have scorned scientific advances, placed moral judgement on Private lives an decisions, controlled and manipulated Gov't bodies? How about those with a Moral crusade to convert all of humanity to their doctrine. Who hold in reverence the idea of a battle between Good & Evil which acts as a catalyst to destruction for most, but salvation for some.
Jesus did not judge the outcasts, he did not condemn education or intellectual achievement,he did not convert others at the other end of a weapon, he never even claimed to Know when the end would come.
There are some Fundemental disagreements as to the Life & Teachings of Jesus which this those under the 'Chrisitian' Umbrella are starkly aware of.Thus allowing this particualr sect to weild influence and power over a Demcractic Free nation for 30 yrs is Unfair to all others who follow this theology.
Some of US raised in that tradition see Evangelicals as Operating FAR above their pay scale.We also consider them morbidly obsessed with St John's Revelations.Some are actually willing to kick the whole party off (Hagee's dreams of pre-emptive strike on Iran to set off Armegeddon).This Group scares the hell out of other Chrisitians- they are far too elated and proactive. this is NOT the Version of Christianity we want projected around the World...Still.
Evangelicals are not a 'Generic' form of Christianity, nor a Moderate form...they are the same Apocolyptic Daydreamers who have been around since the dawn of man. Their sick facination with judgement, destruction and damnation reflects Badly On US.
Couldn't we finally have a positive, uplifting, Unifying Spiritual voice - one that reflects our Hopes, not our Fears.
Rick Warren is Not Wrong, Any Evangelical Would be Wrong.
And for those Evangelicals who beg to differ, that's my perception of the Faith, so you have a bit of a PR Problem...Because Perception is everything and you guys are a little scary.

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Is it religion or punk for the overweight?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: grindermonkey on Dec 25, 2008 7:28 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is not a religion. It is a social club for people whose vanity knows no bounds. If Jesus was pictured as an awesomely overweight porker would his message have been remembered? The unctuous libido of this group and their fixation with other people's sexuality replaces their personal humanity and fixes them in a twisted, fascist mentality that ignores the very teachings they pay lip service to. Their costumes and pretentious humility do nothing to hide their venomous and distorted values and undisciplined appetites. Their constant whining and proselytizing pollutes the public air waves far beyond the confines of their tax exempt bunkers. Perhaps what they need is a good dose of government regulation to put them back on the straight and narrow.

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Wolves in sheep's clothing
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Posted by: luzmejor on Dec 25, 2008 8:00 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Although there are many essentially good people caught up in these self-congratulatory political drives, they are being fooled, as we all are, about the true meaning of these "hate thy neighbor" movements.

We should all forcefully point out that their actual ends are total right-wing social and political power. Slavery is bound to result.

Christianity is being highjacked to bring about a Nazi form of government power in the same way that the Germans attempted in the 1930s, which led to the horror of WWII.

Citizens, we never want to repeat that experience in this nuclear age!

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» RE: Wolves in sheep's clothing Posted by: avidAmerican

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Education is the Antidote to the Mind Poison of Religion
[Report this comment]
Posted by: drricklippin on Dec 25, 2008 8:17 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a declared spiritual humanist who believes in "a source" I am aware of the toxic mind poison of organized religion on our most vulnerable -our world's youth.

Worlwide healthy childhood education is the only antidote to this poison-see David Boulton's remarkable work

Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton,Pa

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Barbara, Michigan
[Report this comment]
Posted by: avidAmerican on Dec 25, 2008 8:30 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The far right need to call off their faked outrage. There is no War on Christmas, and not even a War on Religion, except in their own minds. Just like the typical Republicans, they use made-up, faked, outrage hiding behind their religion. Shame on them for "using" their religion like that, and so blasphemous, that's a sin, remember?

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» RE: Barbara, Michigan Posted by: helenwheels

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Ignorance
[Report this comment]
Posted by: edgeofnowhere on Dec 25, 2008 8:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
can be cured, but stupidity can not. We will always have a "religious" right.

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Nazi Watch
[Report this comment]
Posted by: jmmartin on Dec 25, 2008 9:03 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Frederick's piece is downright scary, especially the bit about The Call, "a national parachurch youth organization of growing significance." You note that the group helped pass Prop 8 and that Dobson and Perkins are wont to refer to them as "martyrs" and predicted there would come a time when "we will have to risk our lives."

Hey, folks! Who do these Dangerous Lunatics sound like? (1) Taliban, (2) Al Quaeda, (3) Hitler's "Youth Group" or (4) all of the above.
Guess.

The Nazis were a religion. This is how it is done, folks. The theocrats' principal objective is a thing they call "Dominion": the earth ruled by Jebus, and then there will be a big vanishing act by True Believers called "The Rapture."

These D.L.'s are trying to hurry us up so that they can start the Final Event, whose equivalence in modern Jihadism is self-annihilation by i.e.d. These folks are not playing with full decks.

To paraphrase Woody Allen, I don't fear Armageddon, I just don't want to be there when it happens.

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» RE: Nazi Watch Posted by: helenwheels

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We have had these Christian Nazis in Texas Almost Forever...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: joeocho88 on Dec 25, 2008 9:12 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These damned people have made my life a living HELL but I will admit that their ideas have been good for the Texas economy because so many other people keep coming here --and bringing the very things that cause them to LEAVE their home states with them! Be cause of their alleged superior educations back where they come from, THEY TAKE ALL OF THE JOBS THAT NATIVE BORN TEXANS LIKE ME WOULD HAVE!
I can remember when it was DANGEROUS to be a Jew or a Catholic because this PROTESTANT GROUP of BIGOTS, Witchburner wannabes, gay bashers and HATERS and KU KLUX KLANNERS and anti-Jewish people were in TOTAL CONTROL of the State. I remember having to protect the Catholic Church with a shotgun because "they" wanted to BURN IT DOWN!
Just WHO THE HELL ARE THEY TO TELL THE REST OF US HOW TO LIVE! THEY THEMSELVES ARE HYPOCRITES! LIKE THE LIMOUSINE LIBERALS who want to impose Third World lifestyles on the REST of us, these so-called "CHRISTIANS" want to impose a religious-based law like the TALIBAN only with THEIR interpretation of the Bible! I was wondering why they professed such hatred for the Taliban and El Quidah when their rules for us would be the same only in English. Think women have a problem under ISLAMIC LAW? Try growing up being a WOMAN in TEXAS -EAST TEXAS,especially. NO HUMAN RIGHTS! IF you are a Mexican American or indigenous woman in South Texas, MACHISMO rules supreme.There are BEATINGS and MURDERS of WOMEN with NO consequences and forced CHILD BEARING until teeth and various body parts literally fall out! WE combine the worst of the worst aspects of the Patron system and the Slavery system here regarding rights of workers to a living wage! Those who fought to get labor unions here GOT BLACKLISTED! There must be something wrong with Labor Unions up north because MOST of the jobs went offshore and when you are competing with SLAVE LABOR in CHINESE PRISON CAMPS... you better learn the rules of the ( EXPLETIVE DELETEDS) in the cotton patch and tolerate the EVIL of the system OR we have NO jobs!( They call it " toe the line" here)And they have a system of NEPOTISM and FRIEND OF FRIEND hiring preferences here where if you are not a WASP of their religion or privileged male, then you had better have one to speak up for you or refer you otherwise YOU WILL NOT WORK AT A JOB THAT PAYS ANYWHERE CLOSE TO A LIVING WAGE!EVEN THE MOST MENIAL JOBS HERE ARE DOLED OUT TO THOSE WHO ARE MINDFUL OF THEIR "PLACE" in these people's twisted, inhumane and bizarre world! ( It's NOT WHAT you know it is WHO you know!) We would be much further along technologically and economically had this cruel, discriminatory way of hiring NOT been in place for these many years. It is how they insure COMPLIANCE! And they have cops to keep you moving along once you are dispossessed of your wages, your home and your basic human rights. YOU CEASE TO EXIST AS A HUMAN BEING!

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Merry Christmas at the AlterNet Cafe
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Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars on Dec 25, 2008 9:14 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I swear if the AlterNet was a restaurant it would be wide open on Christmas day. I'm starting to think, the AlterNet is just getting mad for having to pay its employees time and a half today.

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When Someone Else's MYTHS become FACTS, WE HAVE TROUBLE, FOLKS.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: joeocho88 on Dec 25, 2008 9:26 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When these Christians began killing and confiscating property in the name of JESUS which they did to my Shefard relatives in Spain and my NATIVE AMERICAN relatives here and justified it on the BASIS of THEIR RELIGION,THEIR MYTH, it is very hard to believe that any good can come of this.

When they want to bring about this "RAPTURE" where all believers are met in Heaven by angels flying space ships and taken to be with Jesus where He will reign for 1,000 --the exact length of time HITLER'S REICH aka THE NEW WORLD ORDER was supposed to last...

I am wondering why these people are still allowed to spew their hate speech and propaganda and to DEMAND that their FICTION, and BAD SCIENCE FICTION and FUTURISM it is, be accepted as FACT while they try to annihilate the human rights of others and DESTROY other RELIGIONS!

Anybody who falls for this needs to be in a mental institution or in prison so they can't harm the rest of us and they can babble and rant and rave their deranged hallucinations to a secure wall!

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» You're confused in your statement Posted by: floridahank

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The scariest thing in the world....
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Oracle2020 on Dec 25, 2008 9:36 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This......is frightening. Absolutely frightening. I always knew that things were bad, that the US had its large pockets and potholes of bad, but this....shows just how prevalent it is.

If the US continues like this, it reverses every iota of social, political and cultural progress it has ever made, and ever been known for. Creationists actually having political leeway? Private religious schools? Rabid anti-feminism? Watch it, guys. This is looking a lot like those other, fundaMENTAList countries out there...the ones you claim as your enemy.

(I have a best friend living with her american husband and newborn in the States. If this is how things are going to be...I worry about that baby's future. And my friend will be the first one packing, too, if things get that bad (re:stupid).)

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I really wish the "Rapture" would hurry up and get these wingnuts off the planet....
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Animal on Dec 25, 2008 10:13 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And leave the rest of us in peace.

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For all the AlterNet Posters....
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Quannah on Dec 25, 2008 10:39 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Happy Holidays!

Merry Christmas!

Happy Hanukkah!

Wonderous Winter Solstice!

Joyful Kwanza!

Boisterous Festivus!

Thanks to all of you for a very interesting year on AlterNet!!!

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Ignorant, incurious, apathetic, and obstinate
[Report this comment]
Posted by: willymack on Dec 25, 2008 11:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As one writer stated, all these can be cured, with the possible exception of incurious, with a first-rate education. I'm with him(her?) on the stupid part. I don't claim my opinion on STUPID is a scientific one, but it seems we're born with all the intelligence we'll ever have, and if you're a dim bulb at birth, that's how you'll live your life, without curiosity and succeptible to any number of scams. As we all know there are always those, ready and willing to take advantage of the dim bulbs, and bend them to their will. Let's keep one thing in mind; the dullards and the parasites who prey on them are NOT IN THE MAJORITY. They only seem to be because they make a lot of noise, what with their pretensions of moral superiority, supposedly derived from one form of religious dogma or another. Even the dim bulbs can see through this crap if they're properly educated. They're not bad people, just ignorant, incurious, apathetic, and obstinate.

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HOW TO STOP THE RELIGIOUS NUTJOBS..........
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Posted by: Docent on Dec 25, 2008 11:14 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Take away their tax exemption! It's about time that the government stop giving passes to religions and start taxing some of their income, properties and businesses.

If we continue to give them a free ride on taxes, this country will turn into a theocracy - Let the bastions of religion start paying taxes like the rest of us.

This country was founded on the separation of church and state. By letting them off the hook and not taxing them, they are using their profits to interfere with our freedom and to march to their drumbeat of their beliefs. Be
aware - be very aware!

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justgreenleaf
[Report this comment]
Posted by: justgreenleaf on Dec 25, 2008 11:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jesus would say, and in fact did say--"Many have spoken in my name, but I know them not."
He would also say about LGBT, the religious right, the progressive left, and everybody in between--"Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do."
To know God's will, just be quiet and listen.

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» God's will for us --I disagree Posted by: floridahank
» RE: But Hank the scriptures were Posted by: floridahank
» More archeological proof. Posted by: floridahank
» RE: The only sins Posted by: Jo1028
» RE: The only sins Posted by: Lauren
» RE: justgreenleaf Posted by: Lauren

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keep All Your Damn beliefs to youselves
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Posted by: mindtrvlr on Dec 25, 2008 11:21 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
IF everybody would just let everyone else alone and believe what they wanted and quit trying to force your or their beliefs on the rest of us, the world would be a hell of a lot better off. I don't give a damn what my neighbor does inside or outside his home, as long as it doesn't interfere with my free rights. Everyone needs to mind their own damn business. If I go to hell for what I believe or they goto hell for what they believe,.So be it. ENOUGH SAID/QUIT YOUR USELESS ARGUING.

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» A dangerous viewpoint Posted by: floridahank
» RE: A dangerous viewpoint Posted by: yesman

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WHAT IS IT ABOUT RELIGION?
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Posted by: shd1230 on Dec 25, 2008 12:09 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is it that causes people to want to force their version of faith in a supernatural being or beings on other people? Why should my belief in a supreme supernatural being interfere with the lives of my fellow men and women?

A couple of millenia ago there lived in Nazareth a Hebrew male who was called Jesus, or Yeshua, or Joshua, depending on how one translates the name. His mother was a teen-aged girl who quite possibly was impregnated by a Roman soldier while betrothed to an older man called Joseph. When he was thirty years old this man became an itinerant preacher and teacher who came to be well known and respected for the next three years. He began drawing such a crowd of followers and admirers that the religious leaders of the Jewish community were worried that he might foment an uprising against their Roman rulers, and by doing so bring down the wrath of the Emperor on their heads. So, to rid themselves of the menace, they charged him with political crimes and put him to death by the barbaric method of crucifixion.

Now some of his followers had already decided that this man was the "Messiah'" that is, the prophesied leader or king of the Hebrews that would one day come to deliver them from bondage. During the first hundred years after his death, the legend grew: he was born of a virgin, he rose from the dead and appeared to his disciples, he ascended to heaven, and would come again very soon in a cloud of glory to rescue his people.

This is where it began--in the Middle East where Abraham had encountered his Yahweh and where later Mohammed would meet his Allah. Of course none of this makes any sense at all in today's world where, when it comes to the origins of the universe and the creation of life, there is only one answer avilable at present: WE DON'T KNOW!

And so much evil has been done, so many humans have died, so many battles fought--all over something that WE DON'T KNOW.

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» RE: WHAT IS IT ABOUT RELIGION? Posted by: floridahank
» Like to see your evidence Posted by: floridahank

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Satan Claws Is Coming To Town
[Report this comment]
Posted by: HoboHomo on Dec 25, 2008 2:29 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You better come out, you better not lie,
You better not doubt, so open your fly:
Satan Claws is coming to town!

She knows when you are f*cking,
She knows when you dump a heap,
She knows if you are straight or gay,
So be queer or take a leap!
Oh, Satan Claws is coming to town!

She's gettin' real pissed,
Nails ready to slice,
Gonna scratch out those hetero lice!
Oh, Satan Claws is coming to town!

She knows how you are voting,
She knows when you bash a fag,
She knows if you hate homos
(And to Hell you shall be dragged)!
Oh, Satan Claws is coming to town!

She's ready to hiss,
She's ready to strike,
Gonna show who she hates or she likes,
Oh, Satan Claws is coming to town!

She knows what you are thinking,
She knows what is in your heart,
And if you are a homophobe
She'll rip your lungs apart!
Oh, Satan Claws is coming to town!

She's flickin' her wrist
Straight into your hearts,
Gonna wipe out you hetero farts!
Oh, Satan Claws is coming to town!


--
Zeke Krahlin (Jehovah's Queer Witness)
http://ezekielk.tblog.com

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Totally correct
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Posted by: yesman on Dec 25, 2008 3:03 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The reactionary, vicious forces of the religious right aren't going anywhere and aren't about to give up.

Yes, Obama was able to deal them a major political defeat this year, but he was an extraordinary candidate in an extraordinary year. Even if he's successful and serves two terms, what then? How many Obamas do we expect to have on hand, versus how many bigoted pastors dripping with money and possessed of significant rhetorical skilll?

These people cannot be ignored or reasoned with (they reject reason as a tool of the devil). They must be defeated. They are our internal Taliban and al-Qaeda. Just substitute "God" or "Jesus" for "Allah" or "Mohammed." The fact that their "message" is a complete perversion of Christian teaching matters no more than the fact that bin Laden and his ilk contort the teachings of Islam. Both must be defeated, along with any other permutation of religious fundamentalism.

The question is, "What is the most effective strategy to use in combatting them?" Indiscriminate violence is no more likely to be effective against the Christian fundamentalists than it has been against al-Qaeda. That's their tactic.

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» What's success? Posted by: floridahank

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Try the truth and wisdom, instead of politics, atheism, etc...
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Posted by: SevenStarHand on Dec 25, 2008 3:39 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Never know, perhaps their end is closer than you or they might imagine...

Here is Wisdom...

Peace now, or else...

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Yep, the Religious Right give religion a bad rap.
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Posted by: maxpayne on Dec 25, 2008 4:04 PM   
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Don't limit this to Christians alone. This could easily applied to Muslims, Hindus, Judaism, etc ...

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parrotuya
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Posted by: parrotuya on Dec 25, 2008 4:52 PM   
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I hope the religious wackos decline with the stock market and that Rick Warren dies a horrible death on the way to D.C.

DOWn, baby, DOWn!

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» RE: parrotuya Posted by: texasrodeoqueen

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Family & Friends
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Posted by: Lupin65 on Dec 25, 2008 5:10 PM   
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I have friends and close family members who are pretty much beholden to the religious right. They get me pretty upset sometimes when I talk about my views on marriage equality sometimes I just ignore them but they keep spouting there "Fixed News" beliefs at me. one of my friends says that gays should have basically no rights because they choose an alternative lifestyle. I personally believe that being gay is not a choice, but even if it is that is no reason for separate but equal statis. One of my religious right friends is so intent on brainwashing their child that if you even mention evolution you get shot down this is one of the same people that believe that they shouldn't play god, but they are willing to do it to their child. God bless the south. Oh well i have rambled enough hope all the alternet people have a good holiday season.

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» RE: Family & Friends Posted by: Lauren

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As A Papal Legate Once Said...
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Posted by: Nebris on Dec 25, 2008 5:46 PM   
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Kill them all. God will know His own.

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RE: Jesus
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Posted by: texasrodeoqueen on Dec 25, 2008 8:12 PM   
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Amen! Jesus, please save us from these evil people professing to follow you and spewing hatred and evil. We ask this in your name. Amen

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RE: Jesus
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Posted by: litebug on Dec 25, 2008 8:56 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Excuse me, but celebrations and observances at this time of year precede Christianity. I get so tired of Christians thinking they own this holiday. In fact, Jesus was probably born in spring. Early Christians co-opted the pagan Solstice. I have always celebrated the season as a cultural event. Christmas trees, Santa and Rudolph have nothing to do with Christianity. On the whole (there are a few, damned few, exceptions) Christians are the most over-bearing, hypocritical, obnoxious bunch of people that ever walked the face of the Earth. They just can't keep it to and among themselves. They are always trying to tell other people how to live, what to do with their sexual organs and how to arrange their families. I don't think organized Christianity has anything much at all to do with Jesus. In fact, I think he'd be horrified and very angry at what is done in his name. There is little, if any, difference between Christian fundamentalists and the Taliban other than the Taliban has achieved the kind of power the Christians here are still trying for.

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Jesus said this would happen
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Posted by: jobeob on Dec 25, 2008 7:21 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
After reading many of the comments on this article I am reminded of when Jesus said in
John 16:2 "They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God."(NIV) So who will the true Christians be killed by? Will it be the hawkish Evangelicals the backed the invasion of Iraq or the "enlightened" types that make up forums like this who try to save us from our ignorance and superstition. Because people that believe Christ when he said "blessed are the peacemakers" over George Bush's lies about weapons of mass destruction that aren't patriotic enough. And Christians that see homosexuality as a sin because the Bible defines it as such (I Cor 6:9) or that see embryos as people that have rights too just aren’t' enlightened enough to deserve life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

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Hate speech?
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Posted by: violawall on Dec 26, 2008 7:08 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When did having an apposing view become hate speech? Most of these comments are way over the top! Grow up!!! Liberals, I mean progressives, push their own agendas on everyone just like they claim the religious right do. They indoctrinate hate America and political correctness in pubic schools instead of teaching math, science, english and unbiased liberal history. It is embarrassing how stupid our children our graduating from high school and college. Liberals are the ones that are ruining our once grand country! As for the comment about it's the cities against the ignorant rural areas! Hogwash! If you would look at demographics around huge cities, the dreaded burbs, they vote primarily Republican. They are mostly well educated hard working people. Now lets look at the big cities. They are primarily uneducated and have their hands out waiting for the government to save them. Yes, there are some poor rural areas that vote Republican. However, there are an awful lot of them that vote Democrat as well for the same reason. They have there hand out waiting for their government check. That's reality! Vi

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» RE: Poor Viola? Posted by: Jo1028
» Oh I see... Posted by: Thucy

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Grassroots strength from Ab-only
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Posted by: Jo1028 on Dec 26, 2008 8:49 AM   
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Clarkson mentions the grassroots strength of the religious right - but what most taxpayers don't know is that we have been funding this grassroots effort with abstinence-only tax money for the last 8 years - Most of the contractees getting this money have been religious right groups and they've used it to expand and grow their political activities at the local level. - All illegally of course - but the Bush administration let them get away with it as it supported their base. A first priority for Obama is to cut off the ab-only money - since it's also been proven ineffective in promoting abstinence!

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The spirit of
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Posted by: Micah on Dec 26, 2008 8:34 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The spirit of Christmas must reign this season. People must forget for a while their problems. This holiday all stores are open for sale. Instead of thinking of war or the dirty politics, why not go for a walk, breathe some fresh air, go to the malls and buy something for you love ones. Christmas is here that's why giving gifts is a sign that you have remember your love one for this special occasion. If you don't have money there's no need to worry because payday loan is here to assist you in your financial problem. Read more on payday loan article..

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biochemurgic
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Posted by: biochemurgic on Dec 27, 2008 8:36 AM   
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Falwell is dead and the other elders of this movement (Robertson, Dobson) will soon pass from the scene. Like other Americans in their age group, younger evangelicals have grown up in an era when tolerance in social matters is the expectation rather than the exception. As time goes on and the older leaders are replaced by the next generation, I suspect there will be less nonsense about opposing marriage equality, "curing" gays, etc.

Similarly, younger evangicals have grown up in an era where concern for the environment is the norm. That is already having an impact, with a significant number of evangelicals finding biblical reasons (e.g., stewardship of creation) to take up the fight for environmental protection generally and climate change mitigation specifically.

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» RE: biochemurgic Posted by: Lauren

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A Plug for PRA and its online publication The Public Eye.
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Posted by: yellow on Dec 29, 2008 5:35 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just can't say enough about PRA and The Public Eye. Chip Berlett is great. I want to call attention to a great ten part PRA/Public Eye series on the Federal Reserve Bank written by economics professor Ed Flaherty. It convincingly debunks every single myth that conspiracy mongers distract people with about America's central bank. Economic Justice activists need to read and study the entire series to get ammo to fight the far right. In the tough, ongoing battle against fascist propaganda in the US, PRA/Public Eye is leader of the highest rank.

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Culture War or Class War?
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Posted by: Lauren on Dec 30, 2008 9:48 AM   
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Culture War or Class War?

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» RE: Dick Cheney Posted by: Lauren

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Dangerous people...
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Posted by: philipcfromnyc on Dec 31, 2008 12:25 PM   
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It is almost impossible to overstate the danger that religious fundamentalists pose to the very concept of participatory democracy in the USA.

Fundamentalists tend to be people who have serious difficulties dealing with the vagaries of life; they tend to see issues in terms of black and white, and rely heavily on pre-digested concepts of right and wrong. As individuals, fundamentalists find it extremely difficult to process new and unfamiliar social developments; when confronted with issues such as abortion and equal rights for gay persons, fundamentalists tend to become extremely frightened, and rely on religious dogma and rank superstition (cloaked in the guise of religious teaching) to navigate such issues. Groupthink is frequently a characteristic embraced by fundamentalists, who argue that the Bible (or the Quran, etc.) is the “inerrant word of God.” Clinical psychologists refer to such cognitive processes using terms such as "concretism of thinking."

It is so much easier to rely on the teachings of a religion than it is to think for oneself.

Fundamentalists believe that God is behind them, and that the teachings of their religion are an adequate substitute for reason and ethical judgment. Consequently, they dismiss concepts such as participatory democracy, constitutional law, and majority rule as “the works of man.”

I have no objection to people practicing their religion – but when they attempt to inscribe their religious beliefs into law and public policy, then I cry foul. The Mormons were responsible for flooding the State of California with more than four of every five dollars that were spent pushing through the obscene state constitutional amendment known as “Proposition 8.” Now this group has the unmitigated gall – the audacity – to call upon the gay community for “healing” and conciliation. May those who promoted Proposition 8 rot in hell.

Fortunately, younger people tend to be less prone to religious contamination than are older people. Jerry Falwell, James Kennedy, and others of that stripe are now dead. Overwhelmingly, younger people tend to be much more accepting of issues such as gay marriage than are older people. Most younger voters in California voted against Proposition 8, and this trend was also reflected in other states where issues such as gay marriage were put to the voters.

I am currently doing business in the UK, and the differences between UK society and US society are profound. I don’t think that it is a coincidence that the more enlightened attitudes of people in the UK exist in a society that is much less religious than is the USA. Here in the UK, the issue of gay marriage was decided in all but name with the introduction of “civil partnerships,” which are very different from civil unions in US states such as Vermont. Civil partnerships in the UK carry with them all of the benefits and responsibilities of marriage, whereas civil unions in the USA do not grant to those persons who enter into such unions the 1,049 rights and privileges accorded married couples under federal law. Civil partnerships in the UK place gay relationships on a substantively identical footing as heterosexual marriages. Gay UK citizens can sponsor foreign nationals under immigration laws if they enter into civil partnerships; gay UK citizens in these partnerships enjoy the same tax, inheritance, and other benefits as do heterosexual, married couples. The lack of an organized “evangelical” movement is not, in my personal opinion, unrelated to the increased acceptance that gay persons enjoy in the UK.

The vast majority of fundamentalists tend to be Republicans. I am hopeful that the trouncing this party has just received, both in Congress and in terms of losing the Presidency, will do even more to marginalize this group.

PHILIP

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Continued...
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Posted by: philipcfromnyc on Jan 1, 2009 12:35 PM   
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I remind you that the highest law of the land is not the Bible -- it is the Constitution of the United States. The US Supreme Court overturned Bowers v. Hardwick, 478 U.S. 186 (1986) (an obscene decision permitting the states to throw people such as me into prision merely for having gay sex) in Lawrence v. Texas, 539 U.S. 558 (2003). In Lawrence, the Court acknowledged that it had made a serious mistake in Bowers, which it bluntly and expressly overruled ("Bowers was not correct when it was decided, and it is not correct today. It ought not to remain binding precedent. Bowers v. Hardwick should be and now is overruled."). The Court made it clear that it had made a grave and insulting mistake in handing down Bowers, and declared that gay persons are entitled to respect for their private lives. ("Had those who drew and ratified the Due Process Clauses of the Fifth Amendment or the Fourteenth Amendment known the components of liberty in its manifold possibilities, they might have been more specific. They did not presume to have this insight. They knew times can blind us to certain truths and later generations can see that laws once thought necessary and proper in fact serve only to oppress. As the Constitution endures, persons in every generation can invoke its principles in their own search for greater freedom.")

You opine that gay marriage is an abomination in the eyes of God. I am not religious, and I deeply resent efforts by persons such as you to inscribe your religious beliefs into law and public policy in a country which is secular in its government. I am every bit as entitled as you to seek and to find love and happiness -- and you have neither the right, nor any invitation, to dictate to me the terms upon which I may find such happiness.

I am hopeful that the California Supreme Court will overturn the monstrous state constitutional amendment known as "Proposition 8." From a legal standpoint, this amendment is literally analogous to an amendment withdrawing the right to marry from Catholics only, or from black persons only. (The California Supreme Court held, in in re Marriage Cases, 43 Cal.4th 757 (2008), that classifications on the basis of sexual orientation are "suspect," meaning that they are presumptively unconstitutional, rendering them acceptable only if they are able to survive the rigorous standard of judicial review known as "strict scrutiny." This places such classifications on the same footing as classifications on the basis of race or religion.)

If you do not accept gay marriages, then don't get married to a person of the same sex! If you don't believe that gay sex is acceptable, then stop having gay sex! But kindly refrain from imposing your religious beliefs on me.

We do not live in a theocracy. We live in a diverse constitutional democracy, in which the rights of minorities are protected by the courts. Fundamentalists are absolutely entitled to live their lives on their own terms.

I respectfully ask -- no, demand -- that you extend to me the same courtesy.


PHILIP CHANDLER

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