1- Don't tell them god loves you and so so I.
2- Don't tell them they are going to hell if they continue to deny god.
3- Don't argue the creationism is real science.
4- Don't argue that America is a Christian nation.

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Don't get me wrong, I'm an atheist and I don't care if you're on my good side. I'll treat you civilly regardless, but getting on my good side isn't going to make me think twice about about pointing out when you're wrong on matters including matters of religion.

My good side isn't a means to an end. Being a dick to me isn't going to win you any contests but neither is being human. You may catch more flies with honey than vinegar, but maybe you should consider the purpose of catching flies in the first place.

While damning me to hell for not believing your story about a talking snake in a tree is certainly a dick-move, I'll be no more or less likely to point out the absurdity of the talking snake or this hell place, whether you toss around the damnation or not.

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Atheism doesn't mean being 100% certain that God doesn't exist.

I'm 100% certain there are no magic god fairies for the same reason I'm 100% certain there's no magical easter bunnies. Both magic god fairies and magic bunnies are equally childish and equally impossible.

An atheist who says he's not 100% certain about the non-existence of magic fairies is not a real atheist and he's sucking up to religious insanity.

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This piece was written for progressive God-believers. But when I look out across America, I see vast swaths of mega-church Xtians, attended by the spiritually dead and sleepwalking, who glom onto the dominant religion in their culture so they won't have to wake up. Many of these folks lack a working moral compass in their normal lives; their church would rather keep them spoonfed and spiritually infantilized. If you want to find American hypocrisy, look in the pews on Sunday. But those are not the progressive Xtians I think would be likely to run across and read this article.

Yet the article struck me as targeting the spoonfed people who lack a working moral compass, telling them, "Now when dealing with these types of strange beings, treat them this way and follow these steps..." It no longer surprises me how commonly Xtians don't love their neighbor as themselves, even though they like to take credit for having that fundamental value by virtue of church membership. In normal day-to-day life, I don't expect to be treated any better by Xtians than by others, because it simply doesn't happen. I suspect that the righteousness Xtianity tends to breeds often renders them less able to recognize their own debts, trespasses and failures toward others, more than their instruction teaches them how to behave better. If Xtians follow these instructions with the same degree of success as they follow Jesus' instructions, we atheists are in real trouble.

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Thank you so much for this article; the absurd piece "Why Atheism May Be the Best Way to Understand God" that was posted on Alternet a couple of days ago, needed a good rebuttal. As an atheist myself, the misconceptions that most believers have regarding atheism are a continual annoyance.

The worst of these in my mind is that atheists are just like the religious, but with different beliefs: just as dogmatic, just as sure of themselves, just as closed minded, just as self-righteous, etc. That's simply not true. Most of the atheists that I know, and the ones currently writing books, are a) far more intelligent than the average person, and b) scientists are far more open minded than the average citizen, not to mention religious zealots who don't seem to possess a mind at all, open or not.

What I really find interesting is the mountains of data that show an almost air-tight correlation between education and irreligiousity; the more education one gets, the less likely they are to believe in a higher power/supernaturalism.

For those in the sciences, the numbers get even worse for believers. Many recent surveys of American's attitudes and beliefs about religion have found somewhere between 90-96% of the U.S. populace believes in some kind of god or gods. Now compare this to the scientific community: a mere 40% believes in some kind of god or gods. (I.e. 60% of all scientists are flat out atheists, though many of them run from that title and the stigmas it brings with it, due in large part to the misconceptions addressed in today's piece, preferring the less offensive 'agnostic'.)

That's a dramatic difference, and one worth contemplating a moment. While non-scientists, those whom it could easily be argued know far, far less about how the actual, physical world operates, believe with nearly complete consensus (90-95%) and with almost total certainty that they are right. While on the other side, the most educated people on the planet, the ones who know and understand the most about how the world and cosmos operate, believe in god at much lower rates (40%).

Furthermore, the latter group are also far more tolerant of others beliefs and viewpoints, and less certain of their own beliefs. With religious believers, it seems that the less you actually know about something, the more strongly you feel, KNOW, that you're right. (Think Fox News)

As for myself, atheism is simply one manifestation of my overall worldview; if something is true prove it! Doesn't matter if we're discussing U.F.O.s, crop circles, the efficacy of some new drug, Santa Claus, what happened on 9/11 or anything else. I apply the same logical/rational investigation of any of these; Atheism is simply the result when turning to the subject of religion. As a bonus, atheism offers the comfort of never being wrong. I know that sounds arrogant in the extreme, so let me explain, briefly: the atheist is not making any claim at all, simply doubting the claims made by others, for their lack of evidence, coherence, intelligibility, etc. If conclusive proof of a god's existence appeared tomorrow, I and many other atheists, scientists, philosophers, etc. would simply change our position in light of new evidence, and thus cease being atheists. This would in no way imply that we had been wrong all along, for all atheists have ever really said is:
GOD IS NOT disPROVED, SIMPLY unPROVEN.
So again, atheist aren't making a case for anything, we simply aren't buying yours.

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and an atheist shows he (she) has good knowledge of scripture, perhaps better than yours, and can quote it, do not say "You really are (secretly) a Christian (or believer of whatever sort)deep down". Neither should you say that if he does something nice or shows some moral behavior.

Don't try to nag him (her), or force him, or trick him into going to church thinking if you could only manage to get him in the door and talk to your preacher he will 'see the light'. The odds are overwhelming that he has heard it all before, and maybe seriously thought about it -- or even had been a believer in the past.

If you feel an overwhelming need to 'testify', stand on a street corner and wait for someone to commit some legal offense, and tell it to the judge.

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about getting on an atheists "good side"? They're as clueless as everyone else.

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I cannot speak for others but, as a so-called "atheist", let me say this: If you wish to get on my "good side", ask me questions about what I DO believe, rather than questions about what I do not. My positive beliefs define me, not primarily my objections to yours. Once you have a grasp of my positive beliefs, if I have not already given you a name for who I am versus who I am not, please use an appropriate positive designation instead of the rather inappropriate negative one.

At various times, I will use one or all of the following labels acknowledging the fact that no collection of labels, no matter how large, can be entirely descriptive of who I am in total: naturalist, realist, idealist, Bright, objectivist, empiricist, rationalist, humanist, secular humanist, classical liberal, libertarian, liberal, etc. I will rarely self-identify as "atheist". The term has more to do with what others believe than what I believe.

I believe those who self-identify as theists or Christians, Jews, Muslims etc., have inadequate facts and logic to justify many of their fundamental beliefs. That is a positive statement regarding theists born out of my positive belief in the efficacy of accurate observation and consistently logical reasoning.

I am defined by MY beliefs, not yours. If you can respect that, you will be on my "good" side ... if there is one.

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At first, the bottom line of this article seems to be that everybody should play nice, whatever your beliefs. But by bringing in the privilege thing, it's implying that only those who pulled the longer straw are really obligated to play nice.

That leaves the door open for anybody to be a jerk, so long as they can provide a convincing argument that they're a victim. And isn't that the history of religion, politics, etc.?

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Merry Christmas!

From the Darkside

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I realize this is only tangential to this artice but...Is it me or does it seem more and more that many atheists are starting to act like an organized religion?

As Freethinker (most religionists would call me an atheist because I refuse to pick a diety at least any currently revealed) I thought the best part of not believing was being free from dogma,magical belief, and having to conform to the rules or identity of a "community", The latter being one of the most sadly misappropriated words in the current victim culture IMHO. I mean if one doesn't believe in something can their really be an "Us". I see my self as a person who simply chooses not to believe something. Not part of a "community"that needs reaching out too.

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I don't happen to be Gay, but am Pissed about the Rick warren Invocation invitation.
He is one of many who have been working diligently to divide this country.
Granted it sounds as though he's touched slightly on real social issues anyone calling them a 'Faithful' should have been focusing on for years. But then he ruins it with his Judgement and condemnation of anyone else who does not buy his snake oil pitch.
Obama should have had an Atheist or even a Non Big 3 person give the invocation. Why? Becasue Rick Warren and the Other 'Evangelicals' Do NOT Need or Deserve any More Large Audience stage time.For the last 30 yrs they are the ONLY ones who have been allowed to Speak. We know their "ideas' We understand their Doctrines and frankly that is the reason we Rejected the 'Holier than thou' Sarah Palin, and Mike Huckabee.
Honestly it's time for the religious right sit down shut Up and stay the hell out of our way as we finally get past their prejudices and discrimation to assure every person the Right to Life Liberty & the Pursuit of happiness.
Unitl the Religious right begns to mend fences themselves with the numerous communities they have insulted, maligned and 'Beared false Witness against'...I don't want to hear one more damn Sermon from any of them!
Who hasn't this Group Judged? Democrats ,Women, GLBT, Muslims,AIDS victims, Jews (only love the Converted).
The Religious right is nothing more than the KKK without Robes and Hoods.
How dare they try to convert ANYONE to this hate doctrine. How dare they try to lure others into their Sin of weilding Judgement against Gods Other Creation. How dare them be so arrogant as to not just dream of 'End of Days' but attempt to push Political powers into bringing it to fruition (Pre-emptively Strike Iran to set Armageddon in Motion- Hagee). this i snot only a crime agaisnt Humanity, but God's divinity and Design. Who are you to think you are the 'Anointed' generation, the ones who will be Raptured?These So called 'evangelicals' have not only provoked hostilities between Humanity, they have been working far above their pay scale, Stepping on god's Toes (Claiming & Seizing Powers Rights reserved solely for the Almighty)
I've heard ENOUGH!! from the 'Evangelical' Born Again End of Dayer (white supremeist, masogynistic, Haters of the Diversity of Humanity) crowd.
Why do I refuse to ever set foot in a Church again...Not only because I have recovered fully from the effects of Catholism, but because their 'Brand' of religion proved they are all just as corrupt, arrogant and heretical.

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Every American owes atheists a debt of gratitude for the excellent work they have done to preserve our liberties and the separation of church and state.

I also greatly appreciate the fact that atheists don't go around blowing up abortion clinics and murdering people they disapprove of.

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I do not allow myself to be manipulated by pink unicorns, invisible clowns, a giant, all-knowing jealous god in the sky or the threat of any hell. I simply do not allow myself to be manipulated by ignorant, silly people who think believing in something gives them the right to talk about it. I choose my friends based on their intelligence and wit, and do not want so-called believers in my life in any way, shape or form. Believers are nothing more than sheep, and sheep will NEVER get on my good side. Stay out of my face. Please. I've had enough of you and your kind, and so has this country.

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Speak for yourself, Greta. I admire much about the man.

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I'd add one more helpful hint: please don't try to convince us that we're not really atheists.

I've had believers pull this on me either 1) because I'm not mean and cranky like Hitchins, I'm really agnostic not atheist (presumably because atheists are dogmatic about there not being a god), or 2) because I'm not consumerist, they think I can't be materialist, or 3) because I do good works and they consider me moral, I must be motivated by religion or at least spirituality.

It seems to me like the most basic tenet for living in social groups is to treat others as you want to be treated (which is why many religions have such a principle, not vice versa!).

Just as someone who does so-called "Christ-like" work is not a Christian if they don't believe in Christ, I'm not spiritual because I don't believe in spirits, thank you very much!

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What is the REAL goal we are seeking after in all these discussions of reasoning, wishing, believing and wanting?

What do I care about the internal ordering of any other person's values and how he or she arranges them so as to gain harmony for him- or her-self? Why should anyone else care about mine?

Ethics is about the Relations of Whole Persons with Other Whole Persons in a continuing and particular Context.

There are many sides to each and every whole person. There are 'good' sides, 'bad' sides, sometimes-good-, sometimes bad- sides, ugly sides, beautiful sides, happy sides, sad sides, rational sides, not rational sides, emotional sides, interesting sides, boring sides .... .

Atheists, believers, non-believers, etc. etc. etc. are each and every one whole persons in a social, political and economic arrangement and place called the USA.

I only ask myself: do I want a society ruled by Guilt? By Reason? Do I want to rule myself by Guilt? By Reason? Each of these are only two aspects of my whole person!! It is never that simple.

When I meet another, I ask the same question of them. What does it matter to me why they want one or the other?

The more pressing problem these days is not in the issues we are discussing but in HOW we are thinking and reasoning and feeling and believing about them. And, of course, WHY.

A particular atheist that is "bad" does not make all atheists "bad"; a particular believer that is "good" does not make all believers "good".

Meet the Whole Person, not the Part!!

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...among other degrees I have a degree in theology [catholic university and I toyed with the idea of being a Priest once] along with degrees in music and chemisty. I have worked in education, music production, on a SWAT team, and currently own a medical clinic [my wife is a doctor so this is not as far of a stretch as one could assume]

What fascinates me about religionists is this.

I know many scientists who live their lives with uncertainty and hold themselves in wonder and awe at the universe. They don't assume, or hold any points of view that could be considered fundamental.

I also know many people who consider themselves profoundly religious and yet they want to know the rules, need to understand that every rule is set in stone, that there are answers to every question. They have no wonder.

And it seems to me that they, unlike the scientists, lack faith.

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He was on the council in Imagination Land. He guided Butters, “The Creator”, into battle against the evil imaginary creatures.

Why weren’t Jesus and Allah on the evil side? Hmmm.

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Not an easy piece to write. I give the author credit for making the attempt. I am in the strange position of being an atheist who teaches comparative religion -- well, that in and of itself is not strange. A lot of academics who teach religion are atheist. I mean to say that as this argument between religious people and atheists has become more ramped up in the past 8 years, I find myself sort of straddling the fence, not in terms of my own beliefs, but in terms of keeping ignorance out of the discourse by both sides. As such, I find many of the arguments of people like Sam Harris to be vapid, insipid and ill constructed. I frequently argue against Harris because I think he is an intellectual hack. When I do so, people think I am a religious person. I am not. Harris and I are both atheists, but after that fact, all similarities end. My own personal mentor is a deeply religious person. How could I ever be hostile towards all religion? The author claims that atheism is not dogmatic but this is certainly not true in every case. If you read some of the authors the author of this piece mentioned, you might come to the conclusion that they are very dogmatic (despite what she says to the contrary) and I would agree with you. If you want to read well-constructed arguments from atheists, go back to Marx and Freud. At least they had a THEORY (hacks like Sam Harris don't).
One or more respondents wondered about the purpose of writing such a piece. I find this a peculiar response. All atheists and religious people alive today will continue to live in a world where their ideas will come into conflict. We simply must find a way to harmoniously live together. Snide, smart-assed remarks from hacks like Harris do as much to damage atheist credibility as any Bible-beating fundamentalist does in distorting Christianity.

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I can't see any other way around it. Besides, atheists have always existed and they're just like any other religious sect in many ways.

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The way to get along with anyone is to be sympathetic and show understanding. One tip that was not mentioned here, I think, is:

Don't talk about your religion and its creed, live them.

If a Christian yammers away with all the right buzzwords, but doesn't show mercy, love, compassion or charity, then they only serve to illustrate that they and their kind are liars. Nothing irritates the rational mind more than liars and hypocrites.

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he would say a prayer before dropping his bombs over Hanoi, just to make sure they killed the "right" people.

God works in mysterious ways.

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The Christians. No Catholicism is not curable, no you cannot judge me or anyone else as a hypocrit when the topic is a multiple unknown. You humans never cease to amaze me with your "God part of the Brain" hypothesis and other equally goofy renditions of your fear of dying.

You are a bubble in a vacuum you have only one purpose and that is to survive, it is an ineluctible imperative that you can only thwart by suiside and that will teach the Christians . . . nothing.

Chaos (according to Sumarians) saw that it was lonely to be null void so it sicked up matter and attempted to inhabit it, all these other forms of life share this little corner of madness together. Value is its own reward NO THING has to have created it. Yog su thoth was the killer of Chaos and blinded himself and became an idiot simultaneously, again according to Sumarian texts. Who in their right mind is going to worship a blind idiot? No one semi sane QED=Atheism rules! √M≠√(F ! x⁄y)>∞∫▒∀

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As long as someone feels awe at something, I don't care whether they call it God, science, or the easter bunny. They have a connection to something greater than their little ego. I'm not sure God exists, but there is lots to be amazed about, and when we're filled with wonder, we're likely to be curious, respectful, loving, and all the stuff that most scriptures preach.

As an interfaith minister, I feel more comfortable with atheists than fundamentalists. Fundamentalism of any type, with its attendant fire and brimstone, is the true scourge. As progressive, tolerant people, how do we make room in our hearts for the intolerant? This article is a good bridge. Thank you.

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What does atheist actually mean? That you don't believe there is a 'God' or you KNOW there isn't one. Scientifically agnostic is more accurate-or more scientific. It isn't quite the same as 'santa' or 'the tooth fairy' because we know they are inventions as the 'inventors' have admitted as much. We have irrefutable evidence for evolution so we know creationism is bullshit. There is a lot of evidence too that Jesus was a myth. All in all a 'personal' 'God' also seems to be bunkum. However, although I believe the 'BIG BANG' theory it hasn't yet been quantified-other theories abound,and there is no real evidence yet that a supreme force doesn't exist that set things in motion.

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I generally support this article. However, I think talking about "good and bad" atheists may be reasonable, provided that one talks equally about "good and bad" religious people.

In fact, there is an atheist right as well as a religious right: Several years ago, I "bit the bullet" and read RESENTMENT AGAINST ACHIEVEMENT: UNDERSTANDING THE ASSAULT ON ABILITY, by Robert Sheafer. He is an atheist disciple of Neitsche who advocates an extreme libertarian-capitalist perspective that involves opposition to virtally any social safety net. Sheafer views Religion, and Christianity in particular, as major forms of "resentment against achievement." He ends this book W/something like these words against poor people "You are not the blessed of the earth... the people who pay your bills are the blessed of the earth.... The 'have nots' we're asked to have sympathy for are often also 'do nots', 'can nots' and typically also 'think nots' as well.

I've always perfered liberal Christianity to Sheafer's brand of Secular Humanism.

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My father's father was briefly arrested in 1916 in Columbus, Ohio for claiming "no superstition" on a WWI draft registration form. He was never drafted. I think I have a unique perspective on being a heathen in America. His grandparents were part of a German anti-theology movement that move to America in the 1860-70, some to "Germantown" in Columbus and many to the Texas Hill Country.

My father had always put it the same way. He simply didn't believe in myth & superstition. Santa, fairies, leprechauns, & Jesus, all in the same class to him. My mother was a social Episcopalian, went to a big, very old church about a half dozen times a year, chance to wear furs, only comment I remember from her was saying that the Adam & Eve story was a myth. My father went once a year, Thanksgiving day, to a pre-fox hunt "Blessing of the Hounds" because he rode with the sponsoring Hunt Club and because he found humor in the "pagan" event.

I was always told to not discuss non-belief, he was pragmatic. I can never remember my father using "Atheist" but I do remember several talks on Sunday afternoons after I went to some church holiday event with my mother - about myths, he always used the Roman & Norse deities as examples of what people used to believe and that these myths and superstitions of the Episcopalians would suffer the same fate. He's been dead 30 years next week, he would be pleased to see the public discourse like this.

My point - IF Your belief system wasn't your rational for laws/rules/behavior expectations that you wish to impose on me, I wouldn't care. If Your following superstitions to a building one day a week didn't get you tax breaks for your meeting hall that cost me money, I wouldn't care.

I would like to just be able to ignore RELIGION but every time I see the rational for a law being support by a religious viewpoint, and every 100-acre mega-church that takes millions in property off the tax rolls makes me want to get a t-shirt that says , ANTI-THEIST because that's the way I feel driven every time I here "Faith Based" in conjunction with any tax dollar outlay.

It all boils down to keep it to yourself!

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Considering that myself and the other atheists I know do more volunteer work and are more pro-humanist, pro-green alternatives, and pro-animal rights, I'd say we definitely have a good side.

Plus, we don't feel all guilty about having fun, either.

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Do you?

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I appreciated the original post and many of the comments but the author makes a fundamental error in saying that all theists don´t necessarily deny the existence of God.

Ahem...I hate to be clear with langugae if that offends anyone, but that is EXACTLY what makes an atheist (a=no,not; theo=God, or gods)an atheist.

An agnostic , on the other hand, is one who says either 1., they don´t know for sure if tehre is or is not a God, or 2., believe that we can´t know whether or not a God exists (a= no, not; gnosis= knowing).

Please, let´s get this straight first before we continue on the discussion: If you are unsure whether there is a God or not or believe we may never (or can never) know this for certain, then you are an agnostic , not an atheist.

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In every culture there will inevitably be a group of MEN who will claim special insight into the workings of the universe obviously unavailable to us other mere mortals. WHY?

Why are we so stuck on our herd mentality? Whether we bow to the white robe or the white coat, why are we so determined to have others tell us what to think?

Stanley Milgram revisited: people kill when you tell them to

You should ask yourself why Aldous Huxley, considered one of the great minds of the 20th century, asked to be injected with LSD on his deathbed. In his book The Doors of Perception, he states that the "Kingdom of God" is a state of mind that anyone can visit, anytime. There is a world-view that neither the atheists nor "organized religion" (the ultimate oxymoron) have dreamt of in their respective philosophies.

Mathematics and the Psychedelic Revolution

Quantum Physics and the Near-Death Experience

Our connection to the Cosmos (and our decision on whether or not this connection may or may not exist) will ALWAYS be a purely personal, purely subjective experience. Why are we collectively so willing to submit to another's authoritarian version of the "truth"? Stephen Jay Goulding, the famous paleontologist and evolutionary scholar, was AGNOSTIC. I am proud to say that my opinions are my own, formulated from a lifetime of critical reading and personal observation. You?

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I am a believing and practicing Christian and I welcome atheists and their criticism of my religion and its practices.

We Christians are all too prone to be intellectually lazy and morally flaccid in our comfortable cocoons of familiar practices and common beliefs.

I am glad that there are smart and incisive people to challenge me and to force to sort out God's actions from mere serendipity or social action.

Live and be well.

Robert Chapman
Lansing, NY

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LOL!!!

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.

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We should note atheists' "kissing cousins": deists and agnostics. Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin were open deists. Ben joined just about every church in the Philadelphia area treating religion as most would treat social clubs. Lincoln was a Liberal. Does anyone know any other Liberal religions?

Even Jesus openly challenged the "divine intervention" strategy of Christianity. God loves all and certainly would not intervene in worldly affairs on one side or another. Jesus was a very apolitical person and would be dismayed at the participation in politics - especially those that involve government coercion. You see Jesus actually abhorred religious laws imposed on others and flouted them with impunity. He was a "recreational drug user" tying one on with his closest buddies with wine with regularity. He consorted with infidels,prostitutes and tax collectors [equivalent to gangsters today]. He conducted himself with grace as would any atheist. He openly declared that thoughts of the after life were mostly irrelevant. One chooses good for goodness sake [sorry Santa for borrowing your motto]. His was a faith based on total forgiveness - while recognizing the unforgiving consequences of bad attitudes that all too often trumped personal histories of legal and correct behaviors.
Jesus, the icon of three religions, was NOT the epitome of any of their ideologies. He didn't deny God; he just redefined the concept in a morally consistent manner. The ideologies developed independent of his own life and despite his teachings. He preached about personal responsibility for moral behavior only to have his admirers form a religious dogma with him at the top. Even at that he is only a figurehead with most of his teachings totally ignored [much to my consternation with preachers who believe that telling the truth only applies when supporting a religiously correct stance and doesn't annoy authority figures].
I totally agree with an arms length analysis of religion. Why is it that Jews and Muslims will argue about which faith descended from a self described liar and cheat who stole his brother's inheritance? Why would anyone proudly claim that legacy? And what about all the plagues and pestilences inflicted upon innocent Egyptian families by Moses? He's the hero of three major religions - yet Hitler has nothing on him for atrocities!

The worst offense comes from the attitude that their version of God is god of all others. They assume that God punishes and rewards only them and totally ignores everyone else. The flip side of god's punishment of one group by inflicting military defeat is necessarily the reward of granting the other side military victory. That doesn't make sense! How did the Babylonians deserve victory when they don't even acknowledge God's existence? Yet no one even tries to explain this conundrum to believers. Why does God reward evil people with triumph over less faithful good people?
I do not have enough faith to be an atheist. The closest I come is probably deism. I believe that Jesus - like King Arthur - is likely an amalgam of several religious leaders of his day. The quotes in the Bible are full of wisdom and poke holes into authoritarian religious orthodoxy. How they were perverted into another authoritarian religious orthodoxy with Jesus at the top is astonishing! Those who created this amalgam must be rolling over in their graves.

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That'd be more of a challenge.

Anyway, my atheism is specific. IE: I need to know about a deity before I can disbelieve in him/her/it. When it comes to the God of Abraham, I'm an atheist. (No being who behaved the way God does in the various Scriptures could possibly run the universe.) So in these sorts of arguments, I count as "atheist."

But I'm really an agnostic. Y'see, by the very definition of "omnipotent," any omnipotent being could fool me into not believing it existed. (WHY such a being would bother is beyond me ...)

Finally, "atheists" as a whole aren't organized. Why should we be, except in times where we have to defend ourselves? As has been said before, lots of people (including me) don't believe in astrology, but it seems the only anti-astrology organizations are made up of people who actually believe it works, but is EEEEEEVILLLL.

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How to get on an atheist's good side?

Stop saying god is responsible for atrocities like 9/11 and Hurricane Katrina.

Stop picking and choosing lines fromt he bible to back up prejudices beliefs like being anti-gay, anti-woman, anti-choice, anti-fairness, anti-environment, anti-health care.

Stop using religion to excuse yourself from caring about the poverty in the world, because the bible says being anti-choice is more important than anything else.

Maybe once religious folks start caring about people, instead of hating them, atheists might not think so badly of religious folks. The zealots need to actually do something good with their time instead of perpetuating hate and unfairness and wars. Religious people give themselves a bad name through extreme hate.

The way religious people portray religion, seems 100% negative. It's all about hating gays, hating gays, and hating gays. And of course, being anti-choice and anti-woman. Why would any atheist, or anyone on the border, want to be part of a group that is all about hate, rather than love and equality?

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I am an atheist with a dislike for the anti religionist side of atheism. My only concern with religion is that it rejects much of science. Fortunately, that seems to be a phenomenon limited to the U.S. and some Islamic countries.

97 percent of the world have some religious beliefs. The existence of God is not testable and is therefore outside of science. The ability to be religious seems to confer some evolutionary advantage to people. It allows them to form into groups much larger then groups formed by kinship alone. We need to be careful when we trifle with religious belief.

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became a hard-core atheist(if that's the right phrase) as a rifle company platoon leader in 1968 Vietnam (I was already well on the way). Religious delisionists disappoint with their ignorance of their own religion (regardless what it is) the history of religions, general world history and the definitions of morality and ethics in societies.

Dawkins makes excellent reading (as does Darwin - a man seriously unread by the faithful), but unfortunately, "faith" is truly an opiate to billions fearful of "not being".

Not until this foolishness is gone from "civilization" will humans be able to view ourselves as responsible for our own actions and affecting others. Those who put their lives in the hands of their god get shot, blown up and fucked over at the rate of everyone else and subject to the environment in which they live. "Miraculous" survival (e.g.: the single baby who lived through a horrible plane crash some years ago near Detroit)is but coincidence - why would "god" save this child and allow several hundred others to be torn apart and burned - oh, yeah, "mysterious ways". No - just delusion

This piece is quite good and in general, in my humble but experienced opinion, addresses much of the atheist ethos. However, I couldn't care less if a religious person wants to get on my good side. If we have common goals, we can work together as long as delusion is kept apart.

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From the "atheism may be the best way, etc, etc." article

Me:
"The author reminded me of why


Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN on Dec 19, 2008 9:41 AM


I am so glad that I no longer do acid, drink or do other drugs.
I'm an atheist.
Where are those surveyors? They never came around to ask me whether I'm happy, have a good sexlife, etc.

I haven't ever felt any need to talk to an imaginary entity and actually try to get an answer.
I learned that there are things I cannot control and, none of those things are ME.
I am the only one and/or thing which I can actually control.
I have no neurotic need to attempt to get anyone else to think the way I do.
I don't go through life worrying that, if I say goddamnit or some other whatever that I'm going to go to hell.
I have already been in places/situations which could be termed "hell".
As long as I live my life as the sort of person which allows me to feel comfortable with my own self, I then feel no need for anyone else's concept of should/shouldn't, etc.
I have found a very comfortable personal existence and, it is all within myself.

BTW-With all the above so stated, I'm a guy who says merry christmas during these times as, it feels friendly and, that is enough meaning for me."

The above is as pertinent here as it was in the other article's comments.

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I'm an atheist because I have NO belief in ANY gods. That doesn't mean I'm 100% positive there are NO entities anywhere in the universe
which might be considered god like. Consider the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Okay....just kidding about that. But I do not know everything that exists in all universes. I simply do not believe in ANY god I have ever heard about or read about or been beaten about the head and shoulders with back in parochial school. I would say that I'm 100% certain about the non existence of the ones I know about. Any other intergalactic myths would have to line up and be considered one by one.

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Too many nontheists focus on the really big guy with the beard. Christians run for President, and Christians have social status, because a large part of Christianity is a social movement. It's about people being tortured and killed on crosses or otherwise, because of a greater social movement in which they believe. Nontheists have no such structure.

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i am an atheist.

i have been to all kinds of christian churches, catholic churches and even jewish temples. i am also an anthropologist. while religion may be comforting and psychologically helpful, especially in hard times, it is not rational.

this is not unacceptable, but it does need to be understood by any religion's followers.

please don't assume that i think the same as you do.

please don't assume that because i'm tall and white, that i am as racist and anti "the other" as you are

please don't assume that because i think that god is a cultural construct, that i am amoral and uneducated

and because i'm under 30 (just barely) that its a phase, i've been this way since i was a small cancer-ridden child

however, i will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are relatively bright, despite the fact that you have willfully suspended all of your rational thought for this area of your life. just remember that when you begin to suspend this thought in other parts of your life, especially the secular law, i will fight you tooth and nail. but usually just with a battle of wits.

and i will fuckin' dominate! :)

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Atheist Sex

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Merry Christmas vs Holiday Season
I'm athiest. I have a retail store in a mall - I have been seeing buttons that say "It's okay to say Merry Christmas" - and I think WTF?!? I feel slapped.

I have been wearing a huge crown with Merry Christmas on it and blinking tree-light necklace woven in - so it's like armor when I then say "Have a lovely holiday season." or "Merry ChrismaHannuKwanzikah" or "Happy Festivus" Most people laugh, sometimes, people spit/snarl at us "It's Merry Christmas" and we want to say "Wow, how Christ-like of you - Jesus would be proud."

I have one Xtian working for me, two agnostics, the rest athiest. Not a prejudice, but personality issue. And the Xtians don't work on Sunday. Hypocrisy? They shop, they eat out (and don't tip) but don't work. Nice. They just want the rest to work to serve them on Sunday.

Recruiting for God gets you into heaven
This is why they can't just let us be, because preaching and saving souls is written into their scripture as a huge ticket to heaven. Think of the Jehovah's Witnesses. I had a two-hour conversation with two in my store one day. Nice, old ladies, but GEEZ!

How to deal with Jehovah's Witnesses
No matter what you say "athiest, Jew, vampire" they have a response and it just stiffens their resolve. My ex-JW friend told me this and it freakin' works EVERY TIME:

"I'm disfellowshipped, and I really don't want to talk to you right now." To be disfellowshipped, is like having your eye plucked out. To get back into the church, you have to basically sit there in the back for a year, unacknowledged by anyone for a year before consideration. So, when you say that line, they will recoil from you in horror. The first time I did that and saw the look on the woman's face, I spit-laughed, in that way when a really hysterical image or joke line hits you.

My favorite line was from Louis CK's show, Lucky Louis, when the mother is explaining to their little daughter why they don't go to church. "Honey, Jesus is pretend." Bwah ha ha ha hee hee hee!!!!

My Step-dad, agnostic, went to fundamentalist church
We were raised Catholic until my mom remarried. My step-dad's dad was the senior elder in the Church of Christ and we attended faithfully. Over the years, I saw him as the smartest person I personally knew (engineer, well-read, poet). I just found out two years ago that he is agnostic. We talked about it one night, along with his socialist beliefs. He died in February and my mom let me take all his books from his library - Dawkins, and others. His own kids are REPUBLICANS and not intellectually curious, so there was no fight there.

I wonder if he was just going through the motions, seeing the church as a social thing, supporting his wife (my mom) or if he saw it as being in the belly of the beast. He usually led prayer at family functions.

No gods, no monsters.
- Diva

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Having worked in the Academic, Scientific and Military communities, as well as Religious and non religious groups, I worry about the vocal supposed Atheist and supposed Christian ( substitute appropriate religion ). Methinks either who vocalizes overly is suspect. In all my travels I have only ran into a couple of vocal self declared Atheists. They were not folks to be idolized. OTOH, I have ran into all too many claiming to be Christians ( insert other religion ), and living like they should be worshiping the other guy...if they actually believed in either.

That said I have ran into several who did not believe in God or any god, but did not make an issue of it, some who worshiped some other diety, and some who had questions. I never tried to put a handle on them. They were free call themselves what they liked. Just don't get in my face with it. grin

I have no reason to try and get on the "good side" of supposed Atheist or supposed Christian. Evil or harm has been done in the name of both, as has been good. I judge both by the same standards...If I can quote the Bible..."By their works", not by their words.
If they get in my face with their "belief ..be it non belief

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.

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Atheism-"THERE IS NO SUPREME BEING" . Agnosticism- NOBODY KNOWS. What we DO KNOW is the chances are so,so,.....slim. When one considers the size of the universe it's equivalent to someone being interested-of us humans that is,and ALL of us-the size of a virus within our galaxy. Total and unbelievable.......... BUT never say never.

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I am an athiest. However, if I wasn't, your article would not convince me of your argument. You use words such as "crazy bullshit" and "fucked up." This indicates to me that the article is not to be taken seriously as an intellectual writer would not use such language. By writing this way you have validated many of the myths that the religious right hold regarding athiests. Unfortunately this is one more article that could have made a point but failed.

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The very last way to handle atheists is the very reason believers will take none of this advice.

Privilege 9: Be aware of how religious belief gives you a place of mainstream and privilege.

Believers are very aware, consciously or not, of how their claims of belief provide special inclusive privileges for them. What they are not as aware of is how those who proclaim non-belief out loud are persecuted. In other words believers just want nonbelievers to go back into the closet and shut up because they are not conforming. Religion is groupthink and in this land of individualism Americans will cling to any form of connectedness they have.

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Oscar Wilde said that "consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative." In my imagination, I am part atheist, part agnostic, and part religious believer. I do not believe in a 'theistic being,' my knowledge of anything and everything is most certainly limited, and I am still a faith beleiver and active member of the Christian church of my heritage and youth.

I consider myself a whole person, reasonably well educated and mature, and reasonably accepting of all persons as persons of worth, even those who are radically different from myself. I do try to 'love my neighbor as myself ' succeeding and failing regularly. I try not to judge others, but give them the benefit of any boubt that I might have about their worth, as I listen to them and watch their behavior. For me, all this is a mix of my atheism, agnosticism, and religious faith.

Social scientists tell us ALL religions (primitive and modern) are of human creation. So is ALL science. Both contain all the strengths and weaknesses of human nature itself.

They also tell us that religion was originally created by our ancestors to satisfy three basic problems in human experience: pain and suffering, death, and the unknown. Down through the ages many religious myths (sacred stories that helped pre-scientific humans to deal with these problems) degenerated into LITERAL TRUTHS and NUMEROUS RIGID RULES, and many modern believers have not let loose of those unfortunate developments.

Modern science has helped us to expain and cope with these ever-present realities (suffering, death, and the unknown) much better than pre-scientific civilizations, but NOT ABSOLUTELY. So what's all the fuss about? We still need (ALL of us) something to believe that will help us. Narrow and literalistic religion has great limitations, but so does RELATIVISTIC scientific knowledge.

We humans are doomed to live with only partial and limited knowledge about suffering, death, and the unknown, and everything else too, now and forever. THERE IS NO ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY ABOUT ANYTHING! Therefore, we all need to cultivate humilty (teachableness) as we share our various BELIEFS and THEORIES with each other, and work together for greater knowlege about all our common problems, and their possible solutions. We need to balance and harmonize, as much as we can, all of our human INCONSISTENCIES.

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From #3

"...a passionate support of religious freedom, a fervent belief in the separation of church and state, an intense respect for diversity."

Support of religious freedom Yeah, their own. Historically this meant freedom to practice one's own religion (or denomination or schism), not someone else's; the blog author should redefine common ground.

Separation of church and state This nation is closer to the church-controlled state—even Obama is in favor of continuing Bush's Faith-Based Initiatives—with more regulation, whatever that means, exactly.

Respect for diversity If this means respect for those different from you, what church or religious group celebrates diversity? I take this to mean all those types of people the blogger who wrote this article described: non believer, gay, fat, feminist, and their counterparts in churches around the world who cannot respect diversity per their religious beliefs.

That's three strikes against common ground, and the blog author is fooling herself further by adding #11 to Sam Harris' list: "I've encountered almost no atheists who thought that God's existence had been definitely disproved. Atheism doesn't mean being 100% certain that God doesn't exist."

By definition, you have encountered agnostics, not atheists, so be more careful not to redefine atheism for the rest of us, and by the way, you call yourself an atheist, are you one of those people you've met that isn't "100% certain that god doesn't exist?" If you desire to corrupt Mr. Harris's list by twisting the very clear definition of atheism, at least tell us which type of "atheist" you are.

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This isn't like being gay where you can't find love without being out, or like being black where everyone knows the minute you step out the door. I mean, atheism is a lack of something. Just tell the stupid believers you believe in their pink unicorn and be done with it. You can even join one of their lame churches if you have to. You're not going to go to hell, and God's not going to punish you for lying, because he doesn't exist...

For the record, I'm a closeted atheist who never saw the reason for suffering for my non-faith. Maybe it's because I live in the Northeast...

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I'm just talking about the U.S. ... I'm not even talking about overt theocracies, where denying the existence of God will earn you a death sentence.

And yet here you sum up just about the ONLY places where atheists are widely (and perhaps systematically) discriminated against: the US and the muslim theocracies.

Anywhere else in the world, you'll get a free pass. In the UK, for instance, which has an official church, Christians are the ones who are discriminated against and have to tread very softly; the same is true to a great extent in the rest of western Europe.

With the exception of Muslim states, Asia generally doesn't care if you don't believe in anything, same with Africa, same with eastern Europe. Even if you were to go north of the border to Canada, you'd find the discrimination melt away.

Probably in South America they generally prefer you to be Roman Catholic, so a protestant or other god-believer would get the same run for their money as you would.

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Reading middle brow rants of any kind is never appealing and this article was no different. I do not wish to be understood nor do I care for that matter. Only those with IQs over 130 (1% of a normal population) can think their way out of a paper bag; the rest have to be controlled and just like pigs they enthusiastically swallow whatever rubbish is dished their way. Thank God for this world of fools – it make my life considerably easier.

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5: Be inclusive of atheists.

That's a big one. Part of the reason why I went to a Universal Unitarian church the weekend after the shooting was because the UU's were nice and inclusive to me. They accept my viewpoint even if most of them don't agree with it.

They don't decide that they need to 'save' me and they acknowledge the fact that they could just as very well be the one that's got the 'wrong' viewpoint as me. I felt sorry for them because someone targeted them for their beliefs and I wanted to show them that there was support for them. I am not a member of their church, though my wife is, but that doesn't mean I can express sympathy and support for fellow human beings.

Heck, if I was ever going to join a church (either converting to some religion or not) the UUs would be the one.

I think one of the big problems with the public perception of Atheists is that we get assholes like Hitchens who get out there and act like dickheads on TV and the religious out there think: "That must be what all Atheists are like!" Which is no more true than watching Fred Phelps and thinking that all Christians are like him and his clan.

Rude, arrogant, know it all jackasses are part of the human condition. There are plenty of religious folk that meet that description but we ( meaning humans in general, not just Atheists) don't sit down and say that EVERY religious person acts like X person.

Me personally, I'm polite to anyone I meet until they give me a reason not to be polite. Doesn't matter if I agree with them or not.

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Thank you for the wonderful article.

If I could make a plug:

ffrf.org



We don't require tithing, there's no worship, no masters, no molesting.

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Perhaps this has been covered, I haven't yet read all of the comments.

I am a militant atheist. I fully support the freedom of religion proscribed in the Constitution. Believe whatever nutty, faith-based, behavior modification you want. I don't believe that there is any real evidence for your belief, however, and I do not find "faith" to be a virtuous quality. This goes for all deification (so close to defacation), whether Christian, Judaic, Moslem, Hindu, Sikh, Baha'i, Zoroastrian...

I am not tolerant of religion in government, i.e. posting the Ten Commandments on public property. I am not tolerant of the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. I am not tolerant of the words "In God We Trust" on our money.

I also, though, do not believe in shutting up about religion. I think that religion is a detriment to the general good, not just in America, but certainly worldwide. For this reason alone, I think that the ultimate progress of humankind will depend on the waning influence of superstition and religious dogma. Religion is anathaema to science, regardless of what any believer may tell you - and I'm talking about the progressive ones, not the creationists.

The science of religion, if anyone cares to read Dawkins, I find is fully explained in chemical and hormonal terms. Emotional reactions that are interpreted as "feeling the spirit of God" can be easily and justifiably explained by the release of endorphins, seratonin, etc. From a scientific and progressive standpoint, let's accept this and move on.

Atheism is evolution of human culture. That's why it is demonized. It means out with the old, in with the new. It represents a paradigm shift in the status quo. I think it's a culture war that has been festering below the surface of our society for quite some time. It's time for that sore to erupt, and for us to be healed, culturally, from the poison of religion.

Once the seed of doubt has been planted, once that door has been opened, there is no going back. So this is a call to all my fellow atheists: Speak freely. Human survival depends upon your voice.

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See, this is where I respectfully disagree with the author. It is not unreasonable to label some as fundamentalist atheists, or to divide atheists into 'good' atheists and 'bad' atheists. The main thing is that a good atheist has a commitment to intellectual honesty, and a bad atheist is dogmatic in their thinking. The bad atheists are a threat to all atheists. Why? Because they call themselves atheists and are no more able to defend their beliefs than a religious person. They represent a large percentage of atheists, in fact, and this is borne out in the comments here. They confound the ability of atheism to 'win' in the global marketplace of ideas. Their certainty is an abomination to scientific inquiry and they reside squarely in the territory of belief. The criticisms of atheism are not inaccurate when applied to people who hold that some unlikely thing is 'impossible', and their beliefs are, in fact, intolerant.

Personally, I don't even call myself an atheist because I don't want people to think I would willingly associate myself with anything resembling dogma. I call myself a devout agnostic. It is logically provable that the true nature of the universe is unknowable. And so the best we can do is to attempt to deduce its nature as best we can according to the best information available, and to behave accordingly. As such, it seems incredibly unlikely, to the point of approaching impossibility, that holy texts represent the Divine Will of God, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. Believe what you want if you find it useful to do so, whether it's Jesus or the Easter Bunny or literal Heaven or whatever. All we can say for certain is that we are still way too ignorant about the universe to ever be certain about anything. I personally find spiritual experiences to be enjoyable and illuminating. I acknowledge that it may just be a form of controlled psychosis, or that it might be any number of other possible hypotheses that allow me to have these experiences. It's all possible, and it frankly doesn't matter. In the spirit of scientific inquiry and the quest for greater human understanding, and the fact that spiritual experiences have improved my life, I choose to participate, and find that my unwillingness to attribute concrete reality to any experience does not diminish the usefulness of that experience.

Denying anything as 'impossible' is the sign of a weak mind. Try 'the existence of a personal God as touted by most major monotheistic religions does not fit our current understanding of the universe'. It is provable, it is precise, and it is True in a way that cannot be claimed of any belief system.

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Sadly, all this is true. I think there are various opinions in atheism as in everything else. I find it a little condescending to be placated to regardless of the subject. Also, I doubt anyone who is "sure" about anything.

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i support religious freedom. just not financially.

take their fucking tax breaks away!


NO ON PROP 8.

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It's not even worth discussing. There is no god, get over it. You people believe because you're afraid of death being the end. Simple as that.

Oh and christmas is just the winter solstice celebration that the roman catholic church stole from the pagans before them, which has been celebrated for 10,000 years. The end of days getting darker/colder and the start of days getting longer/warmer.

You really think it's jebus' birfday? Why do we decorate evergreen trees? You can be damn sure there wasn't an evergreen tree within 10,000 miles of jebus when he was alive. The bible is a fucking joke, stories that were passed down for hundreds of years by word of mouth before the primitives learned written language, stories by PEOPLE ON DRUGS. Don't tell me you can't understand it, it makes perfect sense. Moses climbed a mountain, spoke with a burning bush and received god's 10 commandments? you're damn right he was on drugs.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it, religitards.

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It is easy to be a 100% atheist if you reject the entire concept of deification. It doesn't matter if any entity is real or imaginary if you have no intention of deifying and worshipping it. To borrow a thought from Arthur c Clarke, there may very well be a sufficiently advanced civilization somewhere that would cause religious believers to drop to their knees. I could acknowledge that existence without the whole god bit.

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"I thought as a child, spake as a child, and acted as a child. When I became a man, I put away childish things". The bible contains much beautiful prose. The beatitudes and psalms come to mind. Most of the rest is silly twaddle, and not worthy of consideration. Fear of death is a major motivation for many to live in a fantasy world. Knowlege of death and an indifference to it usually characterizes THINKERS. An insatiable curiosity, joy, and wonder of Nature, as well as reasoned thought and SKEPTICISM, are the hallmarks of most scientists and other THINKERS. These are the people who've conquered most of our ancient scourges, discovered planets orbiting other suns, and given us neat things like telephones, didgital watches, and TV remotes. I think it's fair to say that most, if not all scientists are atheists. Ficticious nonsense asserting the existence of supernatural beings is simply not part of their lives, as they tend to deal with the REAL world, which is full of more wonders than any church dogma. You might say that they're adults and have put away childish things. The ONLY way forward is for the rest of us to follow suit. Of course, that's only my opinion; I could be wrong. (but I don't think so).

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Thanks you for a great, thoughtful, and empathetic article creating an understanding in the reader rather than creating antagonism. Your Point 3, Find Common Areas can best be done by focusing on our common values. A religion is both a value system and also a set of beliefs. While we may not agree on the beliefs, we can (and should) agree on our values.

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After reading many of the comments, I don't know if I'm an atheist who is a closet agnostic or an agnostic who is a closet atheist. I even went back to the dictionary for help. If atheism is disbelief, then I am an atheist. If atheism is denial, then I am an agnostic. I am 99% atheist but I just can't step over the line to 100%, because the existence of a supreme being, or beings, is unknowable. Because doubt triumphs over certainty, in my case, I have always called myself an agnostic rather than an atheist. Maybe I should just call myself a "free thinker" as this splitting of hairs is getting tedious!

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10. Don't be a hypocrite. Apply to yourself and your fellow believers the same standards you advocate for others. If you're going to quote Leviticus, make sure you don't wear jewelry, have a credit card or wear clothing of more than one fiber.

11. Don't try to play the martyr by pretending that religious people are persecuted by atheists in America, or by taking umbrage at fair criticism.

12. Don't assume that atheists are lawless and unethical, since they have lower crime rates and records of social pathologies than religious believers.

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That last point about moral frameworks was especially welcome. The way forward for atheists is to be articulate about what we're positive about. That won't be the same thing for all of us, but there's a common framework of self-realized inner morality that we have here. Anyone with an ounce of empathy for their fellow being understands the Golden Rule in its myriad forms: do unto others as you would have them do unto you, so goes the Judeo-Christian version. Well, that's self-evident. It stands up to Occam's Razor.

But the challenge for all of us, religious or atheist or whatever is to become more understand of other people. My personal anecdote: I grew up in a "Jesus Camp" flavor of Christian fundamentalism, and when it failed me, I did spend some years afterwards angry at religion. I mellowed out after reading Joseph Campbell and taking some anthropology courses. Religion today is often skewed, but it carries mythology which is a valuable part of our culture. We need not attack religion or banish our cultural stories.

Fact: as one human family, we're all living in the same reality, however many interpretations we may all have. That means there is a way to work this out.

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Too bad theism is the default position for god-belief in America. One would think that atheism should be the default. If the same logic were applied to Easter Bunny belief then I guess I am also an abunnyist. (Or is that abunneist?)

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When I meet fundamentalists or traditionalist Catholics, I know that I'm talking to people who have a greater-than-normal need for authority and rules. I also know that I'm dealing with people who tend to be confrontational and easily horrified by ideas outside their own belief system. I behave circumspectly around them based on this assessment of their character.

In the same way, my life experience has taught me that those who self-identify as atheists tend to have less empathy for others than the average person, tend to be more aggressive in pursuit of selfish goals, and seem to lack the mental equipment to use metaphorical and symbolic ways of conceptualizing reality in order to deeply reflect on and communicate ideas about some of the deepest aspects of human existence. From time to time, I run across studies that show atheists have below-normal abilities regarding pattern recognition (for example, atheists are less able to recognize faces in mosaics, whereas strident religious believers seem apt to spot faces that really aren't there) and are, in fact, more likely to disregard rules - which might be a good thing if the rules are unjust, but in most cases the rules are merely disregarded because they're inexpedient to the atheist's personal goal. These facts, too, I take into account when I meet someone who's eager to assert their "Atheism" to me.

As this article notes, "atheists" refuse to meditate as well as pray. What kind of person refuses to spend a few quiet moments simply being aware of the moment and the ebb and flow of their own minds - who refuses to gain deeper insight into their mental habits in order to become a better person? Doing that is an extremely rational thing to do - objective, unbiased observation of oneself in order to gain deeper insight and break free of one's neuroses and blind spots, being aware that the totality of the universe isn't all about you after all and that we're all connected in profound ways - regardless of whatever metaphorical scheme one uses to describe it. It's hardly surprising that people who refuse to spend some time examining their own hearts are the same people most closely associated with communism and its darker episodes in the east, and social Darwinism in the west. (To be fair, I think that religion as it's been practiced tends to come from a tendency to confuse metaphorical and literal ways of speaking - this is especially evident in Catholic theology, where a metaphorical statement like "this is my body" is often taken as a presupposition to build a castle in the air of specious logic.)

I'd give atheists advice on how to improve their image, but I think that if they took any of it - like being more empathetic - they'd be more "spiritual" than "atheist."

This isn't "bigotry" or "oppression," any more than avoiding conversation with an immature pentecostal Christian who ham-fistedly turns every conversation towards "salvation" is "bigotry." It's merely a generalized observation that, while not true in every case, is true enough to serve as a general guideline for a time-starved person who doesn't want to waste time with people who have little to offer.

(Disclaimer: I'm talking about true atheists here, a very small minority to be sure, not "non-theists" who might describe themselves as "spiritual," which is actually the type of non-religious that's really growing.)

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My dear old Granny used to say , " A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still . " My spiritual adviser told me , " There is no point in arguing about religion . Instead , just try to understand other people . " To which I might add , " People believe what they want to believe because they want to believe it . " Rich Parker 12-23-2008

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As long as you no the difference between mala in se and mala prohibita, it doesn't matter what your religion is. Viz., as long as you are a good person..
steve selverston

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I do agree that atheists are the last minority people can abuse with impunity. While I don't hide my beliefs, I do not broadcast them unless I feel "safe." Some people will never know; others, including my religious friends, know where I stand. I would tell religious people the following:
1. Please don't assume because I don't believe in god that I do believe and support the devil, pagan beliefs, communists, etc. The devil and god go hand in hand. Pagans have their own mystical beliefs. Communists often use Lenin's writings as a a religion. I don't go along with most "all-knowing" dogmas.
2. Please don't tell me there are no atheists in foxholes. Members of my family were literally in foxholes, saw death, risked their lives, and didn't turn to a god. They turned to each other and countless other humans who helped each other. I lost a baby to SIDS. In the hospital when I was asked if someone could pray for my baby's soul to save him from hell, I was even more strong in my belief that he was not born in sin. I am not an atheist because I have led a rosy life.
3. Please don't tell me that atheists must believe in nothing. I believe that I am a part of nature's web. I don't not believe that I and all humans are some strange exception to the the entire universe where everything lives and dies. It gives me a great deal of comfort to know we are part of a large and wondrous web of life. We are all subject to the laws of nature. We do not transcend them.
4. Please don't tell me "god saved me" when you have escaped from a disaster unless you tell me "god smote the rest." And don't add that he did it for some mysterious reason that we cannot fathom.
5. Don't tell me you respect the sanctity of life and are against abortion when you support death penalties, wars, ecological devastation, extinction of "unimportant" species, etc. What you are saying is some life is sacred and you get to choose.

That's it. Thanks for providing a forum.

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On behalf of all my brother-Christian-offenders, I apologize.

Believing, as I do, that all men are created in the image of God, then all men, regardless of race, creed, gender, religious/sexual/ideological orientation (admission: I don't really know what "creed" means!!...nor am I sure that I've captured all the varieties that mankind comes in here with this list...suffice it to say, hopefully: "all men") are due respect, a high degree of care and even awe in how they are treated and regarded.

So, to the degree that it is possible for me to do with any degree of meaning: I apologize.

Peace on earth, Goodwill toward all men.

In Christ,
Mike Kemp

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Many people confuse Secularism with Atheism. Many Secularists are Atheists, but it is perfectly possible, and not at all uncommon, for a Secularist to be deeply religious. Here are some definitions:

Atheism is a philosophy that professes “there is no God.”

Secularism is a philosophy that believes governmental or other public institutions should exist separately from religious institutions and practices.

While some Atheists are very proactive in asserting their belief in the non-existence of God, many hold their beliefs very privately. Secularists, on the other hand, tend to be more consistently outspoken because they believe their vigilant efforts are necessary to maintain the separations they feel are important.

I am not at all religious. Some people even label me as an atheist, and in some sense they are correct, but I NEVER proselytize my ideas about God. However, I am a fervent secularist. It has been my experience that religious people often mistake my secularist rantings for atheism and religious bigotry. I have religious friends and non-religious friends, and we all get along well by making “space” for each other to hold widely differing beliefs. In our interactions we focus on things we have in common and avoid dwelling on our philosophical differences. When someone with different views is open to having a respectful discussion about our philosophical differences I am always eager to do that.

Secularists see efforts to bring religion in to government, schools, and other public institutions as an assault on their right to religious freedom, or freedom from religion. While other people feel that keeping religion confined to church and other private settings thwarts the religious freedom they want to have.

One of the things that makes this a great place to live is our willingness to accept and respect one another, and to work together for the common good in spite of our many cultural, religious, and racial differences.

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What I find objectionable in this article is the presumption that all atheists are alike and should be 'handled' the same. That is as absurd as presuming that all Christians (Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, animists, Wiccans, etc.) are alike.

I disagree with the author's definition of a fundamentalist. People who believe they know the ultimate truth about what is essentially unknowable are fundamentalists. They may or may not be intolerant or bigoted. I have nothing but respect for people who hold their beliefs, whatever they are, as provisional until they have better information.

It's sometimes difficult to distinguish between authentic personal experience and religious hysteria, but not all personal experience should be discounted. However, whether atheist or believer, one needs to examine and question the beliefs derived from it. A skepti-meter in good working order is essential for discerning the meaning of personal experience.

I know both atheists and religious believers of intelligence, humor, humility and extraordinary principles. I also know both atheists and religious believers who are willfully ignorant about the reasons people believe or don't believe in God, and are contemptuous of those who differ.

Don't generalize.

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Don't get on my good side. Leave me alone.

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My "bible" is a fine thick tome: Who's Who in Hell. (Ya gotta love the catchy title). "A handbook and International Directory for Humanists, Freethinkers, Naturalists, Rationalists and Non-Theists" compiled by Warren Allen Smith. 2000.
This book is a thrill to browse though and/or read - a reference you will never regret owning.
ISBN 1-56980-158-4

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With so many different concepts of God, how can anyone say they don't believe in any of them? For instance I feel that "religion" mean the values and principles that guide my life. "God" simply means the one principle that stands out as being the highest and most inclusive principle.

Concerning the belief in an all-powerful force that loves us and helps us kill each other, how do we know he loves us more than them?

As an explanation of how reality began, it begs the question of how God began.

danrob@efn.org

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