Just Sarah or Hillary - the media and most people couldn't get past their looks, shoes and pants suits to hear them!

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If women were as selfless and modest as this article suggests, why would they be so eager to get ahead in the corporate world in the first place? Let's be honest. Some very aggressive, ambitious women are clever at doing the sugar and spice bit when they think it will suit their purposes. Just because it isn't paying off for some of them, doesn't mean they're nice.

And just because the jerks get ahead of the people doing all the work, doesn't mean that all of the people doing all the work and getting none of the credit are women, or that all of the jerks who get ahead are men. It just means that the corporate world is f****d-up, which was true long before women entered it.

I think it's quite possible that women are paid less on average, all else being equal. But first, you have to sort the reality from the whining, and get a true, scientific, apples/apples comparison. Find a man and a woman who are both equally jerks (or equally nice), with the same experience, looks, education, etc., and compare their salaries, position, room for advancement, etc.

Most of the arguments I've seen so far on this either fail to eliminate all the variables, or don't do a good job of explaining that all the variables have been eliminated. If somebody can point us to one that does, maybe that would help.

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shit i am at my first job, worked hard and ya i didn't get shit. what else is there to say

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1)Pregnancy & Child Care - There's no way around this; women are the childbearers in the world. That means at least a few months of leave to have the baby and nurture him/her to the point that day care is an option. Then, there's finding decent day care that's affordable. Then, there's the problem of a sick child. All of this normally falls on the woman, despite her career responsibilities.
2)Female Jealousy - Other women in the workplace, even if less qualified, are going to resent the accomplishments of a woman who is promoted ahead of them, especially if they have a longer history with the business. If they're new to the company, some women will try to throw another woman "under the bus" to get ahead.
3)Male Gender Bias - Some men are uncomfortable with a female boss. Some will try to sabotage a female when they perceive she's getting ahead of them. Some will even take credit for a woman's ideas. Some bosses will try to relegate a female employee to a subservient position, such as expecting her to serve coffee to clients or run personal errands.
4)Marriage - If a woman is married, sometimes the husband sees himself as "king of the castle", meaning the tasks of running the home efficiently and caring for the children are, in their minds, the realm of the woman.
These are just a few of the barriers to female success on the job.

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In my company it's not about how hard you work or how skilled/talented you are that matters for getting ahead: it's how much money you can bring in that really matters.

As a result, women and men are valued, by management, fairly equally according to their accomplishments. But around the office with male co-workers who are on the same footing, it's a different ballgame. While they're all bragging about the deals they're making, we're quietly kicking ass and when a woman gets some recognition or a promotion, the perception is she didn't earn it. For every one male co-worker who's aware of gender differences in the matter and realizes what's going on, there are three others who're completely clueless.

Interestingly enough, in places I've worked where management was running more what they thought was an actual meritocracy, women had a tougher time getting ahead. My guess is because measurable results weren't the top priority.

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During my very many years of supervising many people of both genders and some in-betweens. I found that there was no noticeable difference in job performance of one gender over the other. I happened to be male and sometime was subjected to the little tricks that females used in an attempt to get preferred notice. A female expressing herself in a seductive manner did not work on me, though silently it did effect me in understanding what they were attempting to pull off. A male never rested his breast on my shoulder while bringing a question to me to solve. I cannot speak for others, but I find it offensive when a supposed worker uses their gender unfairly to get ahead rather than productivity. Unless one is employed in that intertainment area, one should not attempt to seduce their superviosors, who knows, maybe you could get ahead based on the performance for which you were employed. I have found that those that whine the loudest are usually the ones that do not deserve what they want.

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Gender discrimination against women in the workplace is just fine.

Which is more important, money, or the opportunity to be with your children?

The REAL discrimination problem is the family courts that discriminate against men.

Women whining about making less money? Petty.

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I tried to comment on the piece asking for a "bailout" for alternet. I'd like to contribute, but every single time you post a story about women's rights, a bunch of crazy women haters come out to comment. And you put a picture of scheming females next to the headline, just to make sure that the point of the article is buried under a bunch of "women are such conniving backstabbers!!" I have a hard time contributing to alternet when every single article about women gets this reaction. It brings me down.

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It's not the gender but the level of can-do that puts the mean ones over the top over the nice and honest ones. If anything, nice women are usually defended by nice men especially when having to deal with mean women. It may look complicated out there but don't let the gender divide fool you.

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outside the office too.

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That this article is on Alternet this morning. I work up depressed, angry, and frustrated after yet another staff meeting full of men who will not listen when it is my turn to talk, who talk over me and shout over me. I could just be quiet but at 51 years old I am sick of it and I stand my ground and wait until they shut up and then grind my point home.

This is not to paint men with a broad brush. But over the years I have found it almost impossible to get most men to listen when I have an idea or new way of doing things, whether it is good or bad. My own work is questioned and someone always wants to do it another way. It is so paternalistic. My instincts and judgement are constantly under question. It is totally exhausting to work under these conditions. I am ready to open a flower stand. This is sad because over the course of my career I have out performed the majority of my male counterparts.

It is my opinion and my experience that the reason for this boils down to one thing. Like all the men who have posted nasty comments about this article, they feel threatened.

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Think about it. Most white people refuse to admit racism is still as bad as it is. Men still refuse to admit that women lag in salary and other gender equality issues. It's the same thing. I just want to say that nonwhite men buy into sexism because we are bombarded with these images from birth but the fact remains that in non-western, non-white societies women have always had a prominent place. Only when it comes to white men do women become complete objects. Nonwhite men have learned this behavior from white men and we need to unlearn it. White men and women never had a chance to fully bond during their evolution because their environment was so cold that it was all they could do just to stay alive. The result is that white people are good with technology but they completely lack any spirituality. They see nature as their foe instead of their friend. If we can fix that then we can save humanity.

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I work in an office.

Its full of women. 70% of my coworkers are female. I work in a large system of organizations, partnered together. My unit has 8 supervisors. All but one of them are female. It hasn't always been this way. These women all worked their way to the top, and took the jobs they currently have from men and women alike.

There are nice girls, there are mean girls. Some get ahead, some don't. Some are beautiful, some are not. Some have impressive college educations, some don't. I don't see any pattern that makes any one of these factors give a woman an advantage or disadvantage in my workplace. I would imagine that its a combination of several of these that determines whether a woman raises to the top or not. Even though the men in my unit are the minority, to all appearances we have had no problem advancing along just as much as the women.

I guess I just work in a fairytail.

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guess not.

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Let me say I strongly believe in equality. I believe in equal pay for equal work. I loathe, and have myself been, a victim of discrimination. But this article takes a giant leap from reality.

I have worked almost exclusively with women for the past 10 years. On the occasions women received less pay it is because they accepted less pay and elbowed a man out of the job. Unions with a female majority wage no fights for better pay or working conditions. And, with a few exceptions like the California nurses, aren't disposed to stand up for their rights.

The last five job interviews to which I have been invited were conducted solely by women. There wasn't a man in the room. Women dominate the workplace these days.

In addition, the female bosses I've had have, for the most part, been incompetent tyrants. That is, when you could find them.

I was laid off from my government job a few years ago. I worked in an office with 200 women and about 10 men. Every hour on the hour 40 of those women would leave their desks and run outside to smoke cigarettes. They called it a "5-minute break." It generally lasted 15. We all had what I considered a generous personal and sick day program. When I left I had significant personal and sick hours stored up. Most of the women had zero. They used their time the moment it appeared on their paychecks.

It is a shame when anybody suffers unfair treatment. But articles like this one subvert reality. Women do not work harder than men and many of their practices in the work place promote disfunction rather than efficiency.

And if you're a guy who finds himself at a job interview being questioned by 3 women, well, "Good Luck."

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I've been working in corporate environments for over 20 years, and the last place I was at was 70% women workers, and I saw plenty of laziness, sloth and poor work habits, but everyone kept their jobs, men and women alike. My wife is a medical assistant, there are no men doing this job - women dominate the field and stay employed consistently because of it. It's time to bury the old stereo-types of how hard women have it, how easy men have it, and time for us all to GROW UP and accept PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and adopt good work habits and take care of ourselves. How many men are unemployed vs. the % of women?? Gauranteed, it's higher for men who want work: women get the office jobs, men get the blue collar, heavy lifting jobs that endanger their health. Women have it made and we all know it. Time to stop the whining already!!!

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I quit working for organizations (I tried Wall Street, government and universities; all a nightmare) and went to work for myself 15 years ago due to exactly this type of nonsense.

I've done well. Retiring at age 50. I'm a multimillionaire, something which certainly never would have happened if I had continued to allow employers to underestimate, harass, underpay, exploit and fail to promote me.

Get out on your own, make your own money directly from the economic system without the intervening leaches called bosses and forget about office politics.

That's the only solution I know of.

Jan VanDenBerg

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I guess my name says it all, but all the same, it sounds like the upshot of this article is that in the end, it IS women's fault they don't get ahead. Like it or not, the corporate world is competition-based. Women will either have to change their very nature, or change the way the corporate world works, and it's not likely they'll succeed at changing the corporate world without changing themselves first. I think the truth is that this is something that will require one or several more generational evolutions to occur, just as civil rights have.

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Women are noticeably absent from all the Senate and Congressional hearings and bailout investigations. Are they honest or just too smart to get caught? There are women in high places on Wall st. and in major banks. People are not as understanding when women screw up. We're perceived to be stuid anyway, why prove the point. There is a "play the game" thing going on almost everyplace, and I don't believe that women are as inclined to go along. I always thought about the consequences of screwing up or being dishonest and didn't want to look foolish. Men seem to be less concerned with fall out and this affects every aspect of their job performance. Women tend to be cautious and maybe there's a downside to being too careful. ANNA

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Women, like everyone else, pick their targets. I've seen women assertively push by men plenty of times. They don't usually do it to tough, street-wise men, rather they choose soft targets like a Mr. Nice Guy. That is the way of most predators of whatever gender.

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I think two things have to happen before we can see much equity in the workplace.

First, stop rewarding the pathologies that bring about success in today's workplace. By that I mean adherence to the masters of the universe theorem, Dilbert style management, "supply side" sophistry, and fealty to the corporate God of profits above all else.

Secondly we have to stop hewing to the corporate culture that disses family life. Women went into the workplace lock stock and barrel, accepting the hours and the pathologies as a given. Why don't we look at changing it for the better?

I think when you look at the decline of family life and amount of time spent together, that work has just become what the financiers wanted - an endless cycle of keeping up with the Joneses and in debt and more work - while at the same time wages have been summarily depressed, regressive taxation has become the norm, and usury credit and a much more wealthy lifestyle than can ever be afforded by most of America has been promulgated by Wall Street.

I think we need to stop rewarding the money accumulation pathology that has been the goal in the last decades and get back to real values. That would mean more time with our families and less time striving to pay for upward mobility. After all, where are we now for all of that pursuit? Bankrupt, spiritually, morally, and monetarily, and with a culture that is in the garbage with no interesting music, no interesting television (certainly no family shows like the Cosbys)....we have lost the middle class and all that was good about it.

I think we should start by mandating a new workweek of no more than 32 hours for everyone (four days). And more vacation time. After all, we have more women in the workplace than ever and apparently are more productive, but this isn't getting in our pockets - we're just paving Wall Street over and over with our work while Main Street falls apart. In addition a four day week means less dependence upon energy. Most importantly it gives more time with family - for everyone, not just women. And it will even out the playing field. The corporate work week was created with having someone mind the home as a construct. That no longer works for families because we have absentee parents now - for far too many hours in the week, far too much stress, and no reward for it (except for the top) - and that is only if you call the gross accumulation of money at the expense of others a kind of success. I think it's a sickness.

Until we disdain money grubbing and large displays of wealth, we will be slaves to this amoral culture, and to corporations. We have to even the playing field for everyone, not just women - because many men want to spend more time at home also. And that would be great for our families. Because really, what more is life about than our families, their health and welfare, some good times and everything that we used to have before we were "liberated" into the hands of Wall Street and the enslavement and productivity mentality.

As a society we have not utilized the great advances we've had in technology nor in other areas to make life better for families. We have empowered corporations far too much instead and hew to a work style that is pathological and greedy, stressful, and empty. First we have to fix this and get men to speak up about having strong family values first - so that we can all enjoy our careers and home lives and neither suffers. And that's not about money. It's about having some kind of equilibrium in life. Only when men have to shoulder the burden as well of making a humane and sane life for their families, then maybe progress can be made. But again, progress is dubious if it's only about money....let's get back to values and strong home lives. The rest will likely fall into place if we insist on that.

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I've got a lifetime's worth of comments to offer, but don't have the heart -- or the time -- to write a 5,000-word post.

Here's the best hint I can offer: When I was young and bewildered by the foolishly unfair behavior I was encountering at work, I had the good luck to stumble across a book called "Games Mother Never Taught You", by Betty Lehan Harragan. I read it once and it completely transformed my perspective.

I stayed a "nice girl" (in a Buddhist sort of way) but understood what game I was playing -- I mean, you can be nice or nasty, but to win at chess you have to know the rules of the game. I watched other "nice people" (nice men don't fare so well in many job cultures either) in positions of power or on their way up, and learned about things like positioning yourself and taking risks. I learned to recognize dead-end environments and to find ways out of them.

I'm no multimillionaire, but I did do well enough to retire at fifty and leave the game forever. I worked very hard to do so, but I never had to betray my principles. And really, I credit the book -- my career was the result of my own abilities and hard work, but I didn't understand how to make them work to my benefit until I read it. I checked -- it's still available. You can buy it thru Amazon for as little as a penny.

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At the moment, I represent an "A" cost - i.e., a producer of income for a firm versus a "B" cost - a person drawing a salary for work performed. Thus currently I am able to demonstrate my "worth" via the year-end gross income results of my efforts. However, when I was a "B" cost, at the end of each year I prepared a memo for my supervisor itemizing specific accomplishments during that year. That resulted in significantly better results in salary increases. During my second year at my current firm I asked our office manager if she had considered the fact that what I was producing in income more than covered my "cost" to the firm. She acknowledged she had not . . . and my subsequent increases and bonuses reflected her enlightened consideration, which was important because she was responsible for making recommendations to the executive committee each year regarding salary increases and bonuses. No co-worker was aware of this exchange or its results, because I have always chosen never to whine, brag or share that sort of information with colleagues. It is always a mistake to assume that management will recognize and reward one's hard work - the successful negotiator documents.

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At the Highest Level

But I STILL REALISE i AM IN COMPLETE cONTROL

You see blokes are just little boys when the day comes to an end

And if we don't do what we are told - well

And so we accept the fact that (in my particular culture that it is the slim beautiful dizzy blondes who are the ones REALLY in Control)

But in other cultures _ I do realise that it is the Women Who Are In Control

So Don't Blame Tony & Dick - Blame Cherie & Lynne

Of Course No One Would Even Dare Arrest

Cherie Blair

Or

Lynne Cheney

Meanwhile in ENGLAND - as we have absolutely NO RESPECT For The POLITICIANS

But MAssive Respect For Our Local Police and Our Armed Forces

And We Love Our Women To Bits

It Shouldn't Be That Hard To Get The EVIL FASCIST BASTARDS Arrested, Tried and Prosecuted For Their War Crimes Against Humanity.

Tony

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Just for the record most men are as shat on as women in the workplace. Really only a small segment of people (mostly male) get ahead in any hierarchy. Men do have it somewhat better than women but as Matt Groening would put it "Work is hell"

Really if you want respect, be self employed.Than you only have to take guff from your customers.

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I personally don't care if a woman is aggressive, passive or whatever in the workplace- whatever works for them is fine by me. As long as they are honest, competent & reliable it really doesn't matter.

The people who piss me off at work are the rumormongers, backstabbers and yes-men/women. They come in all ages, both sexes, and every race/ethnicity.

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or is it another way to not take responsibility for ourselves. We can't make the system work for us so we try to change the system instead of adapting. And if we can't adapt then do something else. The corporate environment is pretty toxic anyway and anyone who wants to take that path has to play the game or get out. Just stop whinning about it.

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Whining is how they get what they want. Welcome to America, nation of whiners.

Every single post I read on this article, written by a woman projects just that.

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I don't doubt the study, but it plays into sexist stereotypes of men. If you're nice and just try to do your job, to help out the company selflessly, gauranteed someone else will step up to take credit for your work. Perhaps men do that more - on average - than women. But women do it too. Should women change their behavior to be more like those who cheat their way to the top? Or is the underlying problem in the corporate workplace structure?

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That women who comment on these workplace discrimination stories invariably "outperform" their male co-workers in 99.9% of instances? Amazing.

Attention Men: it's time to abandon the workforce altogether since it's patently obvious that women are outperforming you in every endeavor. Better to stay at home with the kids where you excel, er, wait--no, women are better at that too . . . Come to think of it, just kill yourselves. At least you do that better.

You people are too funny sometimes.

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She Has So Much COURAGE

And Just Blows Me Away

Her Book

THE END OF AMERICA: Letter of WARNING To a Young PATRIOT

Made Me CRY

I only normally cry when I am watching an EXTREMELY Good Movie Made in The North of England

Fucking Awesome Book

Thank You

Tony

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So Get Off Your Arse - And Don't Be Ruled By Your Tribal Prejudices thinking you have got to do everything to conform to your tribe and it's existence - it's political existence - its racial or religious identity - or the local fucking football team

Sure its only right and proper that you try and protect your own local community

But when you have already got so much and life is pretty good - just accept what you have - and travel the world as a tourist not as a terrorist trying to rob,rape,pillage and steal

AMERICA IS THE RICHEST PLACE IN THE WORLD

A Beautiful Country

Just Accept What You Have Got

The Rest Of The World Is Not Trying To Steal From You

And Absoulutey NO ONE Wants To Invade America

The Place is Full Of AMERICANS

In England We Just Accept That We Are Lovely and So The Entire World Wants To Live in ENGLAND

People Know QUALITY

Tony

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Men still rule the world & they want to keep it that way.
Men have to be "nice" too, that's not it.
Once you are an able employee & produce (& sometimes even before you produce), it's WHO YOU ARE CLOSE TO that gets you the promotion.
At the country club, golfing, drinking pal type stuff, they sit around & talk about women & other exclusive subjects that only men relate to.
ALL men have an understanding that they run the world & women are second class--in their minds.
That is why women do not get to be presidents of companies as often as men, elected to office, elected to the presidency etc.
After all, they've proven that they'd rather elect a black man for president, before a woman.
What more proof do you want?

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There is an instrument called the law, if there is a case of discrimination file a tort claim. Remember also there is a document called a constitution. Unless of course you are a Redfem and all that exists is due to the power of your thought and personal governemnt funded vices, Bring in your your hired gun and prove it in a court, otherwise stop peddling this type of editorial tripe as fact. Females have the controlling politics, and as a fiscal instrument of the state have nothing to blame but themselves. Most of these types of articles come from wimmen study indoctrinated individuals who are bereft of morals, fiscal acumen and especially have no bearing on reality. As a female espoused law called no fault, we have no fault insurance, no fault employmnet, no fault children, and no fault citizens. In other words being a moron is no fault of yours, you go girlz.

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