Do not lose sight of the big picture.

For every CEO that makes a lot of money than is fair, the major stock holders often make a lot more than is fair. "Jobs" is how we currently route money to some to get them access to resources, in exchange for some work. "Jobs" should not be an end goal in and of itself. I do understand that in the current system, many without "jobs" greatly lose access to resources, but try to keep the focus on getting everyone a fair share of the resources and workloads. The obsession with "jobs", like the obsession with money, like the obsession with material benefits, is what often leads to the sacrificing of things that we as a society should value more (peace of mind, health, harmony, quality time with others, other living beings (including the environment we and they depend on), etceteras).

Rewarding work and sharing resources are almost universally recognized as desirable for building harmonious societies. Things that are often overlooked in societies is the relatively unfairly greater distribution of resources to those who inherit material wealth, or are genetically or financially at an advantage, or are just favored randomly (luck or notions of "grace of god"), or those who found a way to greatly (and unfairly) benefit from exploiting the current system of sharing resources and workloads.

In a more ideal system, (almost) everyone should work a minimum amount of time towards sharing the workload needed for access to basic resources. (Almost) Everyone should be given the opportunity to fairly benefit from the access to non-essential resources in exchange for added time worked. Efforts should be rewarded much more than inherent superiorities (though that can also have some reward), or being randomly favored, or for finding a way to greatly (and unfairly) benefit from exploiting any given system of sharing resources and workloads. ... Will have to get into greater detail some other time ...

Sincerely,
Aouie

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Michael, Michael! You obviously just don't UNDERSTAND these Captains of Industry! They have Divine Rights.
They are paid so much because they TAKE RISKS, you see. They, um, think. And eat. Sure, its Other People's Money they take risks with (used to be shareholders', now it's OURS), but still . .
And they fly first class. Oh no, sorry they used to. Now they have their own private jets. When you make crap you need to move fast.

And they are VISIONARIES. They thought hard and envisioned those crap Jap cars would NEVER be bought by AMERICANS.

And they give GUARANTEES. Real guarantees. Like the one that, no matter what happens, they WILL get a huge mega-million bonus.

(PS: Your solution is the only sensible one. Which unfortunately makes it likely it WON'T happen. Instead, they'll get our money - and they will promptly siphon off a lot for themselves).

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There's a pattern here. If the government always ends up fixing and bailing out banks and industries, and then once healthy it turns them back to the private hands that broke them in the first place, aren't we doing what Einstein equated with insanity -doing the same thing and expecting different results?

Why not publicly own our large enterprises and have them run by smart, honest people once fixed, instead of just giving them back to some opportunist, conniving, crooked elite? Oh, the 'S' and the 'C' words, God forbid! Talk about religion. They break it, government fixes it and then gives it back to them until they come back to have it fixed again... with our tax dollars... just so they can take it again once repaired, while we just supposedly get some token peanuts to put in the treasury -hailed as some great bargain.

Why not just keep the damn banks and big industries, nationalize them and have the right people run them? Not a dictatorship of the proletariat though; democracy of, for and by the people please. So Government is certainly not the problem per se, regardless of what the neoliberals, neocons, Norquist, Reagan and Bush might say; bad government is -such as the one they ran. And included is the one that keeps this socialized medicine going for the rich owned banks and industries. We musn't drink the Kool-Aid any longer that government is intrinsically bad and can't do anything right so we keep giving away the nation's riches and enterprises to these trickle-dowm-misery crooks to control, raid and ever again break... just so daddy government (that can't do anything right -sounds like teenagers' refrain) once again fixes things for them.

It is not that some enterpises are "too big to fail" but that as hubs of economic activity, some are way "too big to be in private hands." That includes energy, roads, utilities, communications, higly consolidated (no longer regional) banks, the military, etc. But if we keep leaving it up to the commanding thieves and sociopaths in chief, along with the rest of their crony 'base', they won't stop until they fully privatize all including water, air, moon and outer space while they can make a buck out of it. Once they break it... who they gonna' call?

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Re-reading my post, I had an attack of anger that we all seem to accept that common sense solutions are not allowed.

A company goes bust, FIRE THE CEO. Why on earth do I think "That's unlikely to happen!"

It's way past time we started INSISTING on common sense solutions, which include a HUGE component of ACCOUNTABILITY in them.
Political liars and Corporate liars will carry on lying and stealing as long as "We the common folk" allow them to.

We should refuse to give up on this one - starting with the banks and financial thieves. EVERY CENT of their theft should be investigated.

I'm going to start by subscribing to media that ask questions and don't parrot the lies.

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Maybe now the economy will shrink and the population reduce and planet Earth may actually survive? Or so I hope and dream.

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randomly drawn from registered voter lists. Everybody gets to remain in possession of their primary residence or trade up if they want to since some people have more than one residence. (Envision the Queen hanging on to Windsor Palace and Rupert Murdoch moving into Buckingham Palace.)

With no mortgages to pay and free universal health care, we could grow our own fruit and veg and bring back the family farm while still keeping the advantages of modern medicine and technology.

If you think that this kind of thinking is a bit wacky, then just compare it to the beggar-my-neighbor dog-eat-dog world of mass starvation and endless war that we have right now.

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So Mr Moore, drive around in your gas guzzling Chrysler 300..probably with a Hemi and get maybe 10 MPG real word! and you're an activist?

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So Mr Moore, drive around in your gas guzzling Chrysler 300..probably with a Hemi and get maybe 10 MPG real word! and you're an activist?

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when you said..."2. You could buy all the common shares of stock in General Motors for less than $3 billion. Why should we give GM $18 billion or $25 billion, or anything? Take the money and buy the company! (You're going to demand collateral anyway if you give them the "loan," and because we know they will default on that loan, you're going to own the company in the end as it is. So why wait? Just buy them out now.)"

I did a bit of Google search, and here's what came up (as of Dec 3, 2008):

GM has about 600 million shares outstanding @ about $4 per share now which equals $2.4 billion.

Ford has about 2.4 billion outstanding shares @ about $3 per share equaling approx $7.2 billion

Now I couldn't find Chrysler's outstanding shares, but I'll assume they are less than Ford or GM, nor could I find which shares were preferred (non-voting) or common (voting shares).

Doesn't it make sense to buy all the GM & Ford (probably Chrystler, too) shares since it would be far less than $34 billion (although one comment I heard is the Big Three could perhaps ask for up to $90 billion on top of that), the liquidity should get these companies back on their feet, and if shares were voting shares we would be empowered to fire the present management who have driven us into the financial/environmental/manufacturing/social ditch?

An equity voting stake, on such a matter of national well being, security, and risk is the only thing we should consider at the moment, not carte blanche to the same poor management who drove us into the ditch.

It's a risk either way so why shouln't the American taxpayer fronting the money have definite control over the situation?

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An intentional tort is a category of torts that describes a civil wrong resulting from an intentional act on the part of the tortfeasor. The term negligence tort, on the other hand, pertains to a tort that simply results from the failure of the tortfeasor to take sufficient care in fulfilling a duty owed.

Not every intentional action qualifies as an intentional tort. Suppose an investor holding more than half of a corporation's stock votes on changes the other stockholders find detrimental. If the other stockholders suffer damages as a result, this is not a tort, as the powerful investor had a right to vote whichever way he liked. Thus, the other stockholders cannot sue the aforementioned investor for damages.

If, on the other hand, John Doe physically attacks a passerby in the street, and as a result the passerby incurs medical bills, John is liable for these costs, as he is guilty of the tort of battery.
To find a defendant liable for an intentional tort, the plaintiff must prove that the defendant performed the action leading to the damages the plaintiff alleges, and that the defendant could have reasonably foreseen some harm to the plaintiff, although the full extent of the harm need not be foreseeable. Furthermore, the action must be a recognized "wrongful act." A famous case in the 1800s involved a hemophiliac child (Vosburg) who was kicked by another child (Putney) at school, resulting in severe disability of the leg. Although the kicker could not have reasonably foreseen that the kick would cause severe disability, he certainly could have foreseen that it would cause discomfort, and was found liable.

Common law intentional torts include:
Assault
Battery
Slander and libel
False imprisonment
Intentional infliction of emotional distress [emphasis added in both instances]

Source: Wikipedia

Government officials have (given themselves) some immunity from being sued as individuals, but private individuals do not have immunity. Surely we could find a CEO to make an example of...I'm thinking the individuals responsible for those predictable home repossessions.

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as a dumb mopar owner for most of my driving life, go get the biggest screwdriver you can find, a hammer and a chunk of 2x4 and give the offending car part a resounding whomp... for a mopar, this usually does the trick... make sure you cuss it out good and threaten it with the junkyard while performing this procedure also known as 'the mopar prayer'...

maybe we need to let these 3 die off into bankruptcy... already companies that supported production are filing themselves and closing up... damage is already done... what we need is a new company:
green technology
non-gasoline powertrains
prices along the lines of ford
design along the lines of chrysler
mechanics along the lines of gm
build stuff that people actually want to buy, not what the 3 idiots want to build and try to shove down our throats...
more investment in public transportation like light rail... gee maybe the new company would make this a priority???
if we can build flashlights and radios that run on turning a crank, why can't we build a car that runs on kenetic energy, movement recharges the battery???

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The auto industry is part of Economy 1.0. It needs to die and die fast. Don't waste public money on this industry that produces a toxic, cancer-causing product (cars and car exhaust), over-pays its union workers, and tolerates so much management waste and featherbedding.

We need Economy 2.0: fast and cheap public transport, living close to work and play, fewer cars, more walking and bike riding, new cities and towns, a levelling of pay - no more union guys twiddling knobs being paid six figures and being able to retire at 45.

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The simplest solution is always the best. The hard part is thinking of one. This is what Michael does best. I remember reading that Obama was a fan of MM's work. How about a new cabinet position on the committee for common sense?

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plants from New York to Michigan and Ohio and Alabama (all major companies), I can say that the problem is with management who are short-term, shareholder focused and union leaders, not workers, who are no better. Cronyism, nepotism and cover-your-assism is rampant and obviously self-defeating.

Managers who screw up are not let go, they are often promoted to an even higher level of incompetence. I call it the MBA syndrome. Someone with piece of paper(MBA, BSBA, etc.) is assumed to be competent. Pieces of paper and a set amount of time in classrooms does not imbue anyone with competence - only information often imparted by people with no practical experience.

The MBA syndrome is common in all businesses to some degree (ugh). Those who have worked with MBA holders who believe the myth that accompanies this made up degree have come to realize that MBA really stands for "Mocha Bar Assistant". MBA holders who know the application of what they've learned and also have people appreciation skills are exempt (I've known a few of those, too).

The endemic problems of US society and the worldwide mess the bean counters and oligarchs have created will last for a long time and cause untold misery. Kids in Darfur eating dirt cookies is an example of the disregard the world powers have for humanity. Perhaps a few dirt cookies should be forced down the gullets of bankers, politicians, arms makers and religious zealots to give them an idea of what they've wrought. Then we must dispose of them, permanently and decisively, and start over without delusion (the late George Carlin effectively reduced the Ten Commandments to one - it's on youtube and has no relation to an invisible being in the sky) and with compassion and honor.

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and Wall Street runs this country. They control the Presidency and Congress. We don't select the candidates that run for office. Wall Street does. If taxpayers won't invest in their Ponzi scheme anymore, as you can see, they have other ways to get the money.

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The mistakes of past bailouts are unfortunate, but the best we can do is to stop making them. In this country, just about everybody has a car. If our car companies can't figure out how to make cheap, safe, efficient cars, let them die. I think the best way to a good automobile industry in the United States is to make clear that there will be no more bailouts. When there's no endless supply of government money for companies in this industry, the good companies will survive, and the bad ones will cease to exist, just as should have been happening this whole time.

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... that Christmas will have to be postponed for some of them, that others may have to leave their homes and live .... who knows where? Would you care to tell those with sick wives or husbands or partners or children that they won't be able to pay for the doctor and the medicine any more?

It is so easy to say 'let the company go bankrupt', so easy to focus spitefully on the bosses of the company and the stock holders, and laugh at them for tripping over their greed, and forget - just as the bosses and the stock holders forget - about the poor Joes' who work the factories or push the pens in the back office. I am sure they would be grateful for your compassion.

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Dogstar,

First the author of the Book is a lawyer, while lawyers are knwledgable in many fields they are not economists. Second sahe rehashes the same tired LaRouche arguments, about the fed. She is another snake oil salesmen making a prophit over other paranoia.

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Yep, it is true. The end of times has arrived, as foretold.

We know this, because the foremost sign of the coming apocolypes has come true:

Me agreeing with Michael Moore.

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I haven't seen anybody mention that on AlterNet before. It would be a very radical solution, but maybe, eventually, the government should stop creating artificial persons whose sole purpose is to make money. I'm a free-market sort of person, but government issuance of corporate charters is not, in my mind, an essential part of the free market. In fact, it might be an important yet overlooked contaminant.

I think another problem is the concentration of power in the federal government. If you want something, even something that must be taken by force from others, all you have to do is get a few federal politicians on your side. Who is best at doing this? Rich businessmen. They couldn't buy this kind of power if the government wasn't recognized to possess it.

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Originally, corporations were "creatures of the state." Unfortunately, it is now the tail that wags the dog; the monster controls the creator. That is the root of most of the problems we now are seeing in the world.

Back in the 1880's, corporations were recognized by the Supreme Court (in a "clerical error" it now seems) as having rights equal to a person. This was the beginning of the end of rule by the (real) people.

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At $1.00/year these exec's would be overpaid.

They've had years and years and years to improve gas economy (just as their foreign competitors have) and their quality and safety ratings (just as their foreign competitors have) and at every opportunity, they chose gluttony over improvement.

See Ya, Dinosaurs. It's time for you guys to amble off into the sunset, to your country clubs or retirement homes, or wherever, full-time.

We need a new plan, and these guys have proven beyond any doubt they're not capable of competing in an evolving industry.

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Hey Michael, I applaud your idea, I actually sent a letter to my Congressman with the same thoughts! Having said that, why do we really believe that Congress is going to "act like" they've got a pair! On the other hand there is always hope. Hope that someone in Congress has a clue, and is willing to demand that these "gifted angels" be given a swift boot!

I mean, they didn't demand that those "wonderful bankers and execs" be thrown out, so why should this be any different?! For 30 years this nation has been brainwashed into believing in that "laissez faire Capitalism" (aka unrestrained, unfettered, unregulated avarice!), the fact that most people are now waking up to the truth that it was all a Ponzi scheme doesn't mean that those on the top won't attempt to continue the game!

You are really assuming that Common Sense is Common, let me tell you it ain't! Common sense has been dying a slow, twisted, tortured unnatural death for the last 30 years, hopefully we can revive it now before it is too late!

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If any group has the right to HATE the CEO's and CFO's of the Big 3 it is the Workers and the others in MI who have suffered under their mismangement.
However, We don't begrudge the Workers who have continued the to fulfil the aspirations of theAmeircan Dream.
I am Infuriated by those like Newbie Sen. Corker (TN) who consistently go after the UAW for the sins and crimes of the Big Brass.
This ideiot apparently is unaware his disdain for Workers is revealed with his venomous comments and question directed at Gettelfinger. Does he not realize when he maligns, badgers and undercuts Union Workers, he is telling all NON Union Workers He would do the Same to them when given the chance.
He dared calim he WAS a Union member and handled a pension...This begs the Question Why are you not still there. According to him Union Workers make more money than a Senator. My guess is he couldn't make enough money to meet his exorbinant tastes or he was Thrown Out, possibly for Embezzling from the Pension fund?
Sen Dodd appeared to be running interference for the Backlash Corker would get for his attack on the Working Middle Class, claiming Corker was ahard worker etc etc etc. But he then appeared to be subtly telling Corker to take his Partisanship and shove it up his ass- 'This committe has never operated in a partisan manner'. I should hope Corker Got the Hint...'You are going to get hate mail and If you want to remain on this committee, I will not stand for Your BS Grandstanding'. I Know I wrote a rather scathing E-mail to Corker..yes his Site allows Non Constituients to E- mail Him, I suggests Others do the same before he shuts that avenue down.
What is laughable (or annoying) is the Fact the Non union 'transplant' Co. Workers make only about 3 bucks less an hour, and would NOT have been given that had the UAW not set a precendence. In fact those working in TN factories, Better hold on to your hats your Senator will be coming for your 'High Paying Jobs' next, and Your Bennies and Your job security and Working conditions. Hope you all like working for Minimum Wage, with NO Overtime pay regardless of your hours worked.
If there is a Class Warfare being Waged,Corker Just sounded the Trumpet!
This BS surrounding aLOAN to the big 3 (Workers) is not a matter of Global Competiveness, this is another way to push ALL american Workers Down to the level of compensation to Third World Standards.
Their not just after the UAW Jobs, Their After YOURS!

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Any business entity that appears before Congress, hat in hand begging for a bailout ought to have it's CEO and entire board "right-sized" or "re-engineered" (or [Insert favorite euphemism for "fired" here]). What other job could a person possibly hold where such malfeasance wasn't rewarded with a pink-slip?

The company I work for has shotgunned all of us a memo stating that if, through our actions performing our jobs, we cause the company to lose over "X" dollars we can --and will-- be dismissed. And yet our "CEO class" is exempt?!

It isn't just that. They all seem to lack the strategic vision to do anything other than see to their compensation, perks, and stock options. Their sense of entitlement is truly nauseating.

I really don't want to see the Big Three go bankrupt because innocent people will wind up not getting paid, labor contracts will be voided, and investors will be screwed --again!

If the public is going to fund the Big Three, then we are owed a voice in how the company is going to be run. We can't just throw another chunk of money at bailing out the metaphorical reprobate brother-in-law who has a "sure thing" on the third race at Pimlico. You know he is never going to change and the money will never be repaid. The best thing would be for our metaphorical sister to dump this loser and get on with her life. We need an "intervention"!

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We are in a depression. We will be for several years to come at least. I don't see people in the next few years having new cars on their "to buy" lists! So the big three crank out new cars just to have them sit in their lots? And then what? Back to the taxpayer! No, we need to either buy the companies or they need to get into building rapid transit systems and the like, run on hydrogen or other green fuels. Maybe it would be smarter to just buy them and put them to work re building our transportation systems.

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I think this is an overly pessimistic prediction. I think if we stop bailing out bad auto companies and lift some of the unnecessarily burdensome regulations, we may eventually have a good automobile industry in America again.

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It's not only autos, everything has increased in price but decreased in quality. There are too many dumbasses who buy every new thing out there so companies keep making more junk for them to buy.

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Most businesses don't plan to fail, they fail to plan. If we go ahead with the automakers without the corrupted, we need something else to replace them.

First choice, copy the Whole Foods model. No employee makes more than 20 times what any other employee makes. If a job is too big for any one person, split the job and hire two lesser people.

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Most businesses don't plan to fail, they fail to plan. If we go ahead with the automakers without the corrupted, we need something else to replace them.

First choice, copy the Whole Foods model. No employee makes more than 20 times what any other employee makes. If a job is too big for any one person, split the job and hire two lesser people.

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I am watching the CEO's right now on CSpan, and they do not convince me that they will change their ways. I just heard the CEO of Ford saying they would build "more energy efficient cars" no matter what size they are? That means they fully intend to continue building gas guzzlers larger cars. When will they understand that large vehicles are the problem? I sneer at every driver I see with a SUV, and some idiot neighbor just bought a Hummer! They buy them because the big 3 make them, advertise them and every guy with no brain buys one. It used to be that only farmers, and tradesmen bought pick up trucks. Now every idiot on the highway has a monster pick up truck with only 1 passenger, the gas guzzler behind the wheel.
In a year such as 2008 when gas reached $5.00 a gallon what did GM roll out for their 2009 models? A 2009 Hummer, a 2009 Escalade which get on average 14 miles per gallon. They do not understand that gas is now out of reach, and we should not be using gas operated vehicles. The CEO's knew damn well that gas was too expensive and yet this very year they designed and came out with the same huge, high consumption vehicles. They should all be fired, and new CEO's that have successful run profitable businesses in GREEN ENERGY should be hired. We can make electric cars, the big 3 can amalgamate with General Electric and make electric cars right here on our soil. We can do it but not with these 3 knuckleheads.
They will have to go into a structured type of bankruptcy that will stop this insanity and get their priorities in order.

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As a retired autoworker who has been following this situation closely, I was disappointed by Michael Moore’s remarks.

While he did note the discrepancy between the tarring and feathering of the auto execs and the fawning over the Wall Street “ponzi schemers,” I felt he really distanced himself from autoworkers with his pandering anecdote about a defective domestic car. It’s the ponzi schemers who have destroyed the credit necessary to buy all cars, domestic and foreign, and have put a troubled industry in peril.

Moore correctly notes how the auto plants were converted during WWII into what was called the “arsenal of democracy” and how that experience is a precedent for converting the industry to mass transportation and green energy. But he is simplistic in thinking that a bridge loan should be conditioned on conversion from the standard internal combustion engine in the near term. Given the current infrastructure of suburbs and freeways, neither the market nor government fiat can make current model vehicles vanish in a day.

A bridge loan is essential to make sure those auto factories and their workers are around to do the greening job as fast as practically feasible. Rusting factories and a scattered workforce will build nothing.

There is a class war going on against the autoworkers, waged with lies about $70 wages and hordes of reactionary talking heads demanding bankruptcy to break the union contracts and jettison pension and healthcare obligations to retirees. If you're interested, folks can check out my poetic monologue on how those autoworkers struggle to earn every cent of their pay at www.autoplant.info.

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And Congress must do all this by not giving GM, Ford and Chrysler the $34 billion they are asking for in "loans" (a few days ago, they only wanted $25 billion; that's how stupid they are -- they don't even know how much they really need to make this month's payroll. If you or I tried to get a loan from the bank this way, not only would we be thrown out on our ear, the bank would place us on some sort of credit-rating blacklist).

LOL

I was thinking more along the lines of a sign saying "Do Not Give Loans to This Man" with a photo of Al Bundy but Moore's description here works too.

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"But no one ever stopped to ask this question: If you throw everyone out of work, who's going to have the money to go out and buy a car?"

For years now I have watched American jobs leaving this country. I have watched as factories were literally torn down and shipped to China and India. I have watched as Wal-Mart went from a company that proudly advertised "Made in the USA" to a company that quietly became China's biggest customer.

There was a time when kids in this country could graduate from high school one day, walk over to the industrial district the next and have a decent job making enough money to live a decent life. Not any more. The industrial districts are empty buildings and the only jobs for a high school graduate are at MacDonalds - if you are lucky enough to get one. Meanwhile the cost of living has done nothing but rise into the stratosphere while wages for those lucky ones working at MacDonalds have stagnated.

And the true unemployment rate in the US is not 6.5% as reported by the government. It is actually more like 15 - 20% according to Shadow Government Statistics. So, is it any wonder the consumer-driven economy in the US is crashing?

It's simple really. If the guy who owns the pasture keeps all the grass for himself or ships it overseas, the sheep that depend on that pasture starve. When you starve the sheep that give the wool, you get no more wool. Without wool you can't make yarn, without yarn you can't make sweaters and on and on and on. That is exactly what we are seeing in the USA today.

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We all deserve dinner on the big-3 ceos. something nice. It's customary to buy dinner before you buttfuck someone.

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...of this article. There is no way in h@!! those CEOs will do what needs to be done to turn around those companies. They're in too tight with Big Oil. I believe they were and still are in cahoots with Big Oil to create an atmosphere where Americans were more dependent on oil. I wonder how much oil stock these guys have?? The gov't needs to take over the Big Three, kick the CEOs out on their ass, and get the innovative, creative people that have been trying to get their energy-efficient car companies off the ground and put them in charge of running the Big Three. They should keep all the workers and train them to re-tool the plants. And they need to also figure out a way to get all the old gas-guzzling, exhaust-spewing, smog-creating commercial trucks off the road and replace or retrofit them with non-gas alternatives. I think the gov't should not give them a dime. They should really be going to the oil companies and asking them to bail them out. They were part of what created their problem. But, that would only end up perpetuating and delaying the inevitable. The gov't should not give them anything. Let's see if they're really willing to make sacrifices to save their companies. See if they sell their jets, their mansions, and their yachts to save the company. I doubt they will. God forbid they should have to give up any of the riches they've accumulated by laying off workers and closing plants just to enrich themselves. I say we should wait and see if they make any real effort to save the companies and if they don't, which is probably what will happen, then the gov't should buy the companies at a bargain-basement price and then turn them over to people who have already committed themselves to building alternative fuel-efficent vehicles.

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And the bailout beat goes on... . Where will it end? What will happen to our economy if it keeps losing jobs at the current rate (over 2+ million to date)? Capitalism 101 has been dropped from the curriculum. The way in which we produce, consume, exchange, save, and invest needs to be drastically changed. So, what will it take...Mr. Moore's proposal? I would not want to be an auto exec (wait, I take that back...multi-million dollar bonuses...YES!!!). So, what is the alternative to universal health-care, mortgage debt/consumer debt forgiveness, free public education (including college), and expanded social safety-net which includes 200% of the standard Federal Govt. poverty-level statistics. Do we really want to continue to be as mean-spirited as Wall Street predator bankers? Invest in human beings and you will see real returns for our society.

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Don't worry though, they managed to spend enough money in research and development that they got it to have a 0-60mph time of 3.4 seconds, beating Ferrari.

Regarding horsepower, Lutz said: "We're certainly not going to be at 600 because some of our competition is at 600. So, 600 is a number that is not satisfactory for us. I would say comfortably in excess of 600 is the way I would term it." As for 700 horses, "that would be a stretch," Lutz continued. "Tom Stephens [GM's head of powertrain] would say, 'Maybe in the second year.' "

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Let's buy GM, ourselves.
$3 x 10 to the 9th power at $1 x 10 to the 4th power per person: Result: 3x10 to the 5th power of people:
Right now, less than half a million people could invest the cost of a new foriegn compact car at $10,000.00 each and buy GM.
Then we could fire those CEOs, invest another $50,000.00 each and retool America with plug-in hybrids,& mass transit.
Government is not going to do it. The Republicans and right wing Democrats will remain a solid voting block and won't budge.
Folks we are on our own! We can't wait 2 years for a chance to clear the log jam in Congress.
By the way, GM is finding creative new ways of increasing it's indebtedness as every minuite passes.

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And let the foreign autoworkers who provide better quality, fuel efficient, less anti-environmental autos run the show. And if you don't like it, then either start your own local auto building business for a change of SHUT THE FUCK UP !

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Fire the CEOs. I think college students could make better decisions than those highly compensated worthless so-called execs can. We're in real trouble thanks to the greed that consumed America for so long. On top of all this, I believe Bush and anyone associated with the decisions made to get us to this point should be prosecuted, including Bush, Sr. and all of his cronies too. How dare GW gets to go back to Texas and live in a $2 million dollar house, taxpayers buy the house next door for Secret Service provided, and he gets a dam pension for the rest of his life. What does the suffering Americans who have lost their homes, their jobs suppose to get out of this? Shame on them.

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Actually I thought it was the GM dealership - we bought a used suburban ( I know, I know) and the real problem (aside from the power train dropping out on the highway in pieces) was the radiator was hooped but NOOOOO $560 later for a "tune up" and a couple of spark plugs that were supposed to fix the problem for once and for all, here we are going up a dusty gravel road in the height of summer with the windows rolled up and the heater going full blast to try and cool the engine!

~ But I digress ~

So I have a 2002 Chrysler that I got because I needed a 4 door sedan for work on short notice and limited credit - and I have to say it has been otherwise awesome but it has an electrical gremlin which causes the radio fuse to short. But that's not even the problem.

So I'm on my way to work in another town and JUST as I pull out of the driveway, the rear end makes this godawful grinding noise and I just happen to be going to the same town as the original dealership - so I drive off praying like hell... When I made it to work, I scheduled my car for service. First time back at the home dealership in 5 years.

But it was a last-minute appointment obviously, so when they called back I said I had to take the car home that day. Anyway I was told the problem was BOTH control arms and the estimate was $800 + $80 for telling me what the problem was. They gave me a couple of part numbers to take back to my local garage. So I book my car for service back home and the garage orders the parts.

Can you believe that my mechanic called me to say " I don't see anything wrong with your control arms?????" They ended up adjusting my rear brake (for $80) and sending the parts back!

I have a friend who quit taking her minivan to the local dealership because they would actually BREAK stuff dicking around with this and that. Could this have anything to do with the fact that north american car companies are tanking?

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Haven't quite had the boldness of vision to say what Michael Moore states. Now, after reading his words am quite comfortable in backing the nationalization of our automobile industry as a functional part of making our country whole and able to meet the sustainability challenges of this century.

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In 1789 the French had a similar problem only it was with their royalty. The ceo's act like they are royalty as do the wall street bankers. There is no more royalty in France. A guillotine erected in the mall, across from the white house with a few heads on pikes just might send a message, but would it be understood?

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As a Chrysler man (LOL!) I bet you don't know what FORD stands for. Ready?

Found On (The) Road, Dead.

And how true that is!

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showthe picture of the 25 most important carmakers and publish there income and properties.

then send them in their underpants in a victory parade through WALLSTREET

Give them foodstamps and use their private money to pay back to the USA what they have stolen.

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what i try to say;
is the political system in the USA OK?

Is it good if there are so many poor people, is it Good if some incapable old men are able to fill their pockets???

What will change with Obama???

in industrial countries a livable minimum wage is normal,
overall health care is normal,
cheap public transportation is normal

Those crazy billionaires ALWAYS destroy a society (Read Jared;Collapse)

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My two cents:

Let 'em go.

Thirty billion can catch and retrain a nice big number of auto workers.

On the other hand, do you want to see the Three Crybabies run home and stop going out of business next month? Want to see them be the heroes of the hour, and Find A Way?

Say that the money is predicated on the CEO's and top three officers of each company stepping down.

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Michael Moore's plan is so obviously the one and only right thing to do that it will almost certainly not happen--that is, unless the American people wake up and make it happen.

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Stop! Think, Take a trip to Michigan and see what the auto companies have done. With all the billions that were made my the "Big Three", You would think that you would see a thriving up to date type of state. Not so. This bailout, loan, or bridge is a redistribution of money and nothing else. Save yourselves, the auto companies, or suppliers are not going to do it.

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Everything you say in your post describes it to a tee, I agree wholeheartedly. The so-called corporate model at work. It's at the core of what's wrong with many companies, as well as institutions and non-profits who adapt and adopt the model. I worked for the administrative side of a university that went corporate--thought it was a real good idea--and the same ineptitude, greed, and junior-high group mentality exists there. I was required to read the book From Good to Great while working there. Decent book in theory, but it only works when organizations actually dare to really practice it. God forbid they should do that.

Anyway, very well put. Thanks for your post.

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Now you are talking.

Who buys the cars? Our hard earned money which we spend for what is available. We spend the money, we spend the money! The power of the purse is ours.

If people are buying Tesla Roadsters why can't GM begin making electric cars AGAIN. They worked except in the board rooms of the oil industry. Find who got bribed and who paid them and shoot them all in public. If the Chinese can punish CEO's so can we.

Responsibility is earned, that is why the CEOs think they should get the big bucks.

Do you like your Chrysler because it is a Benz or because it is a Mopar?

I am driving a 1990 Lexus 400 LS, with 200 k on the original drive train, the best Chevrolet Caprice Classic ever built. Better than any Benz I have driven. Personal opinion.
Before the Lexus I have driven used Peugeots.
The first a 1964 404 gas sedan, sold with 400 K
on the original engine and clutch.
The last was a vicious turbocharged 505 SW8 station wagon, what a fine car. $38,000 new
$3,000 used for 140,000 miles.

But fun and safe to drive.

What do the CEOs of the Big three drive?
Do they know how to drive. Do they know anything about having fun? Cars are fun or they are boring. Drivers of boring cars kill people in other boring cars. If boring we fail to maintain them.

We buy the cars, our dollars should be motivation for the Big three to build cars that are better than anything Japan, Korea or China can build for us. The Japanese have already proven they can do "European" better.

How will India listen to their customers? Unlike the Arabs they are not looking for the Big Benz or BMW, its bad Karma and the caste system is not ostentatious. Who can afford these cars, we can or could, but the Indians can use the money we are not earning to buy some kind of car.

Shoot the CEO's all of them, any CEO should be informed OF what the French Aristocracy got when Maria suggested they eat cake. A Corvette is a toy, cars move stuff and people not some over age fat bald kid who can afford the pink slip. He earned it but it is still a toy.

We can stop depending on any oil if we stop burning it all up. The internal combustion engine will survive but not for mass transit.
Electric and atomic "cars" can be made NOW.

Yes I said atomic, you are not the only reader of science fiction, If we can move a submarine with atomic ( nuclear ) generators we can make cars that do the same.

The V8 may be the most efficient engine ever designed but how many four cylinder cars do the Big Three make, really good four cylinder
motors. How many inexpensive electrics?

The only question I would ask Micheal Moore is who would he suggest Mr. Obama select for Sec of Agriculture?

Patrick McGean
Director
Live Blood and Cellular Matrix Study
Body Human Project

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Why can't it be the Big Twenty?

I like stellabloo's story about the worker's buying the sawmill.

This is a long-term solution, not a quick fix, but why can't we break up these large corporations, and with Federal, State and local assistance, put smaller companies, which can figure out how to share the huge factory space (a lot of which is probably shut down, anyway), in the hands of private collectives, or the workers themselves. It seems like Socialism at first glance, but it's not. The government won't own anything, just get paid back what it supplemented outside private lending, and maybe it would partially guarantee a note for a time so that the companies would have five years' assurance that they won't go under. If they're not solvent after five years, byebye. It would be a co-op, with everyone involved owning a share.

Then creative people of all stripes could go to work, designing, building and marketing many more different kinds of cars. We might have to pay more for cars, but that's artificial anyway, so maybe not. The marketing costs would be less, because the companies would actually be making things that we want and need, and not just participating in sumo-wrestling matches to steal a mega-market share to survive, or to be greedy.

It's human nature to be greedy and want higher and higher profits, you say? Well, maybe so, maybe not. This would be a good way to find out, and to see which companies survive and which don't in a free marketplace. Great for experimenting with business models, and I think the consumer wins all around.

And....another bonus. I don't know many co-ops that vote their governing boards ultra-high salaries and benefits. The day of the big-assed corporate swine would slowly pass. Maybe their fat carcasses could turn into fossil fuel in a few million years.

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Generally I agree with Mr Moore. But a minimum of three things must be done; Buy out GM, place it into a conservatorship run by Iaccoca or another respected exec until the system is profitable again to be sold back into the private realm. Alongside this approach must come universal health care to remove that excessive burden on auto manufacturing costs.
The last thing - I don't have a good answer for is how to reduce the pension burden from all the retirees. Maybe someone else has a fair solution for that.

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You know the one the "Who Killed the Electric Car?" video is about? The plans have to be somewhere... just make that producer make the same electric car and sell it to people. And make them make it affordable since they were the one's who crushed and forced people to give them back.

Yes get rid of those CEO's and other decision makers at those firms who have made mega-bucks at the expense of their workers and the American community at large at once and relegate them to the streets without any buy out/golden parachute...make them repay the bonuses they got for the last ten years as well...that will bring lots of money back right away!

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First of all I take umbrage to the fact that you include Ford and GM in the same class as Chrysler. Pick up a Comsumer Reports or JD Powers review and Chrysler has made inferior products long after Ford and to a smaller extent GM made improvements in their cars. The fact of the matter is that Ford's quality has drastically improved over the years and is in fact rated just behind Toyota and Honda in terms of customer complaints, service, and quality. And they're a hell of a lot less expensive. This 'they make inferior cars' in Detroit nonsense I keep hearing is typically from people who don't keep up with the car industry or the last time they picked up Car and Driver was in 1979. Their knowledge about cars is as extensive as 'it moves, it doesn't move, I need fuel.'
The bottom line is that these CEO's are poor leaders and it's the workers who will get the shaft. The Big Three failed to create cars that appealed to a wider audience.
Motown has also been stabbed in the back by American consumers where the average amount of knowledge about cars is best summed up as 'Japanese good- American bad' while yakking on about workers rights, the ravages of neoliberalism, and the merits of unionization. How much more pro-worker and radical can you be than to purchase quality cars by a union that is constantly under attack and blamed for the disintegration of an industry because of their 'high wages and benefits'. I bet if we took a survey MOST of you are driving cars that are made by foreign held companies. YOU are a part of the problem. Why buy a camry or corolla when I can get the same quality, same gas mileage in a Focus and pay 10,000 less on average?
My biggest fear about all of this is that I might lose the choice to purchase cars made by a group of individuals who are apart of the few worker-centered organizations that have been able to withstand the ravages of hyper-liberalization of this economy. Anybody who manages to make 29.00 an hour with a high school diploma counts is a model citizen to me. If you look at the experiences of their counterparts in coal,mining, trucking, and construction I believe you'll find them heroic as well.
And yes I am aware of the extensive supply chain involved in producing American cars and the fact that many Japanese cars are made in the States. But you cannot get past the fact that in the end, the profits end up going abroad and you continue to support the disintegration of the unions in the country.

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Buy out the companies--fire the CEOs and make them all worker-owned! Meaning one worker = one voting share.

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We thought it would be interesting to see which Auto Exec chose the most fuel efficient vehicle for the trip to DC. According to www.cost2drive.com it turns out Rick Wagoner from GM did driving his Chevrolet Malibu Hybrid at a cost of $29.07, consuming 17.8 gallons of gas at 32 MPG. You can see the comparison of all three at http://www.prweb.com/releases/2008/12/prweb1702434.htm

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Mike,
Are you "misquoting"?

More than half a century ago, then-General Motors President Charles Wilson was misquoted as having said, “What’s good for General Motors is good for the country.” That quote came to epitomize the auto giant’s arrogance.

I hear both all of the time, was Chuck misquoted or not?

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that would prevent the summary execution of the head-honchos of any company with the guts to ask for a bail out from the community bank account?

Just thought I'd ask.

While we are at it, why not take a member-by-member coin toss for the various state and national legislative bodies?

Any member who loses the toss must agree to refuse all outside funding of any sort (PAC's, etc) for the duration of all future public service. Failure to abide by the agreement is to be considered treason and prosecuted as such.

Just tossing out a few ideas ... the American people cannot afford the top couple layers of leeches any more.

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HELLO?

A fairly unreconstructed view of humanity, womanhood, sex, economics and resource use here.

"Unfortunately this dream will remain only a fantasy due to an antiquated system that refuses to change."

Eeow. Eeek. What interesting fantasies you must have.

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almost everywhere else. You said, the automobile industry was "...more responsible than almost anyone for the destruction of our fragile..." planet. There is a lot of competition between liars. The big money boys are sitting in a round room pointing at each other. What is really the truth is that what ever happens we are all going to pay for it. But the big boys are all trying to pass the buck. They know that if you pass it off onto the automobile industry that they will just pass it on to us. The real truth is that the automobile is only responsible for 6 to 7 per cent of the CO2 in global warming. Stationary coal fired electrical generating plants contribute right close to 50 percent. I'm not saying let the car guys off of the hook. Lets just be sure that we solve the right problems or else we will fail.

You referred to "... a spineless body that wouldn't stand up to a disgraced president nor turn down ..." financing for the war. There are only 48 democrats in the senate. It would take 60 to get a filibuster proof "financing agreement". Nancy Pelosi got it through the house. The republicans in the senate blocked it. It was the republicans that brought us this war. You don't think that they are going to vote against themselves. Sorry. Michael you have let yourself listen to republican talking points. Michael they are liars. Its hard to keep up with their lies. They fly so fast and furious and they have so much money to diseminate them.

In 1958 we had the Eisenhower depression. It too was world wide. We lost Packard, Studebaker, Hudson, and Nash never caught their breath. The republicans said, as they do now, just let them file bankruptcy. They did.

As a starter, if we had saved Packard, would we have Lexus? Studebaker's Champion was a gas mileage favorite and was reliable too. Hudson was a NASCAR favorite. It was the fastest U.S. production car. Everyone of these cars were more reliable than all imports under Rolls Royce. If these companies had lived would we have assembly plants by Toyota, Honda, BMW, Mercedes, Subaru, and Mitsubishi in the United States today? Nobody knows. Its possible genuine competition would have produced a better result.

The Germans in 1958 had only two car companies that were healthy. They let Borgward and Loyd go. They set out to save BMW and Audi-DKW. The bankers set the terms for BMW. Mercedes Benz was handed Audi-DKW and told to fix it. They decided how big their automobile industry was going to be.

We are getting ready to decide how big our automobile industry is going to be. Let me give you an argument for buying any one of the big three. Once you do that you are doing the pointing and not the asking. If you do it right the others must follow. If you get it wrong, they will take advantage of your error. You can enter a little genuine competition into the market.

Government ownership of car companies hasn't kept us from buying. The French government owns the controlling interest in Renault. Renault owns the controlling interest in Nissan. We haven't quit buying them.

Incidentally in 1958 the executives of BMW and audi-DKW sought new employment. Nash was profitable until George Romney sold Kelvinator. Immediately after that Romney went up and Nash went down.

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for their hole card. It is just possible that if Studebaker has stayed in business Honda would be trying to match their combination of efficiency and swiftness. Nash had a tremendous reputation for reliability. Could they have stayed ahead of Toyota? Who knows?

No matter how incompetent they may be Detroit must learn how to be competent. They must live to do that. Nationalized industries are not all failures. Good management and smart leadership is available. Interestingly no German car company, with the possible exception of American owned Opel, has a chief executive that is not also a PhD.

We are too willing to put dummies in the lead.

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Michael - you are way ahead of those crawling UAW bosses. In fact, United Electric workers who are occupying the Republic factory in Chicago are showing the way.

You are spot on, "stepping into the breach, where the supine union leaders refuse to tread," as I say in my blog today. You are right to call for an entire restructuring of the industry.

The Republic workers' challenge to the employers and banks raises questions about the economic and financial system as a whole. Saving jobs and developing an economy that benefits the planet and the people on it requires a transition to democratic ownership and control in every country.

Corinna Lotz, London
http://www.aworldtowin.net

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Yesterday I posted this at Toby's Barlow's article in response to Michael Moore's article on the Big Three, so I decided to put my post here as well. Here it is, slightly edited for clarity and better paragraph transition and couple of corrected typos:

We are all watching as this nation struggles like Hell, in the halls of Congress, to keep a transportation system alive based upon a family unit sized means of conveyance. I think many who post here can agree that this has never been good for the Country - no matter what the President of G.M said about 50 years ago.

I hope most can accept that the Big Three deliberately, viciously and with cold calculation destroyed the trolley car system that did such a magnificent job moving people from place to place in the first half of the 20th century. And I hope most can agree they don't deserve to be saved, therefore.

I think we can agree that we need to change the way we live. Right now, our Nation is perched on the edge of an abyss. If we refuse to change we will fall into it with horrendous consequences.

I don't think it has to happen. I think, if hard pressed, perhaps somebody with the authority and power might get shaken out of their reverie of saving the Big Three so that they can see that the major thing to do is to set ourselves, immediately, to rebuilding the mass transit system we so desperately need - before it's too late.

Doing this, I believe, will necessarily be the end of Suburbia, because it's based on the 'Car Culture'. It also means the rapid end of lot of the conveniences all of us have come to take for granted. However, in the end I believe it's one of the major ways of keeping our Homeland from falling into that aforementioned abyss.

If we don't - then I firmly believe when we, as a nation, finally emerge from all the great suffering that will be caused by the fall, we will no longer be the people we were. We'll only be a shadow of that with many only looking fondly to past glory to assuage their pain. While the upcoming and yet unborn generations will solely be concerned with bare survival.

To try to press the matter, hard, for the kind of building program needed to get mass transmit immediately up and running while at the same time pressing for the abandonment of the Big Three and concomitant end of the "Car Culture" is going to be very difficult to do. Many just will not listen and some will call that act anti-American. But I think it's one of the most patriotic things to do at this moment.

So, the question is: are we willing to let go of the 'Car culture' and move on or are we going to hold on to it to the very bitter end and get dragged into the abyss?

P.S. By the way I live in the shadow of Detroit - Toledo, Ohio which is itself shaking in fear over the imminent demise of the auto industry. I hardly use my Chevy Cavalier anymore opting for a motor scooter or the very inefficient local bus system (the Toledo Area Regional Transport Authority - T.A.R.T.A) or a bicycle or walking.

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GM and Ford already have plants in Mexico and China. They've already tossed thousands of American jobs away. China won't have to "buy" them, they just need to usurp control over the plants that already exist there.

GM and Ford need to start begging for $ from Mexico and China and leave the US and Canada alone. I have no pity for these companies. Not to mention that $ won't solve their problem... I've never seen $ solve stupidity before.

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Michael Moore's scheme makes economic sense. Why not have the Government be the purchaser of last resort of any industry vital to our economic survival when the so called free market can not sustain itself. These ideas have been proposed over a century ago by our own Edward Bellamy, American Author and Social Reformer(1848-1898) in classical work, 'Looking Backward' and amplified in greater detail in his companion volume. 'Equality'. It is time for us as a society to begin the reconstruction of the American dream '... to establish justice [both economic and political] and secure the blessing of liberty for ourselves and posterity...'

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