COMMENTS: 136
The Rich Are Hogging Our Common Inheritance -- We Must Take It Back
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Editor's Note: The following is an excerpt from "Unjust Deserts: How the Rich Are Taking Our Common Inheritance and Why We Should Take It Back" by Gar Alperovitz and Lew Daly, published by the New Press, 2008.
Technological progress ... has provided society with what economists call a "free lunch," that is, an increase in output that is not commensurate with the increase in effort and cost necessary to bring it about. -- Joel Mokyr, Lever of Riches: Technological Creativity and Economic Progress (1990)
Warren Buffett, one of the wealthiest men in the nation, is worth over $60 billion. Does he "deserve" all this money? Why? Did he work so much harder than everyone else? Did he create something so extraordinary that no one else could have created? Ask Buffett himself and he will tell you that personally he thinks that "society is responsible for a very significant percentage of what I've earned."
But if this is true, doesn't society deserve a very significant share of what he has received?
Buffett may not know it, but he has put his finger on one of the most explosive issues developing just beneath the surface of public awareness. In recent decades researchers working in a broad range of economic, technological, and other fields have clarified much more precisely than in the past the many ways "society" contributes to the creation of "wealth" -- and, accordingly, how relatively little any one individual can be said to have earned and "deserved." Their research, in turn, raises profound moral -- and ultimately political -- questions that are becoming increasingly difficult to avoid. At the heart of this revolution in understanding is a fundamental reconsideration of the extraordinary role of knowledge in economic growth -- and of how ever-increasing knowledge, accumulating across the generations, is central to the creation of all wealth.
The distribution of income and wealth in the United States is more unequal today than at any time since the 1920s. The following study shares with Buffett a fundamental skepticism toward the belief that the nation's extraordinary inequalities are simply a natural outgrowth of differences in individual effort, skills, and intelligence. "We didn't rely on somebody else to build what we built," banking titan Sanford Weill tells us in a New York Times front-page story on the "New Gilded Age." "I think there are people," insists another executive, "who because of their uniqueness warrant whatever the market will bear."
The new research findings suggest that such views are profoundly wrong -- but for reasons that go well beyond Buffett's general view and, indeed, beyond the understandings that until recently have been common among specialists concerned with these matters. Often in history something dramatic is brewing in the quiet work of scholars -- something the public doesn't know about or understand until much, much later. Einstein's famous E = mc equation meant absolutely nothing to most people when it was first published in 1905 -- but it hit the world literally as a bombshell when atomic weapons exploded in 1945. The sophisticated mathematics Claude Shannon worked out in the 1940s laid theoretical groundwork for the digital communication that today ramifies into every corner of domestic and global life. The structure of DNA was deciphered by scientists in 1953, but the public is only now beginning to realize just how radically genetic engineering may revolutionize medicine, food production, and many other important fields.
"Unjust Deserts" suggests that something at least as portentous as these extraordinary developments is silently emerging among scholars studying the sources of wealth, and that once the implications are fully grasped, it too is likely to have dramatic implications -- in this case for the distribution of income, wealth, and power throughout society. It suggests, moreover, that this new understanding and the steady evolution of the knowledge economy, combined with growing social and economic pain and set against a backdrop of ever-worsening inequality, are likely to contribute to potentially massive political change as the twenty-first century unfolds. Consider the following truth: a person working today the same number of hours as a similar person in 1800 -- and working just as hard (and no harder) -- can obviously produce many, many times the economic output. Recent estimates suggest that national output per capita has increased more than twenty fold since 1800. Output per hour worked has increased an estimated fifteenfold since 1870 alone.
Consider further that the modern person on average is likely to work with no greater commitment, risk, or intelligence than his counterpart from the past.
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: mmckinl on Dec 8, 2008 12:21 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Very simply , these disparities can't be justified ...
The tax laws of the nation have been compromised to ensure the welfare of the rich and that of their progeny.
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» Every other law, too
Posted by: sliver
» Sorry guys the tax laws have very little to do with it, Sweden is more unequal than the US
Posted by: Social liberal
» Tax laws have very everything to do with it!
Posted by: kiatoa
» FACT CHECK re Sweden is more unequal than the US.
Posted by: sekfetenmet
» RE: FACT CHECK re Sweden is more unequal than the US.
Posted by: Social liberal
» Is that why Sweden has a better public infrastructure that more people can be proud of putting their
Posted by: maxpayne
» The point isn't to get rid of inequality in wealth...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» You are right, the solution is not extrem taxation...
Posted by: Social liberal
» "Social liberal"?? In orwell's world perhaps. You're not a "Social liberal"
Posted by: GuitarBill
» I am a classic social liberal, not (neo) conservative
Posted by: Social liberal
» Typical foam-at-the-mouth Republican. He's no liberal. He's a Raygunite looney.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: I am a classic social liberal, not (neo) conservative
Posted by: HoboHomo
» jealousy
Posted by: theVRWCwhodatesLiberals
Comments are closed-
Posted by: aouie01 on Dec 8, 2008 12:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Rewarding work and sharing resources are almost universally recognized as desirable for building harmonious societies. Things that are often overlooked in societies is the relatively unfairly greater distribution of resources to those who inherit material wealth, or are genetically or financially at an advantage, or are just favored randomly (luck or notions of "grace of god"), or those who found a way to greatly (and unfairly) benefit from exploiting the current system of sharing resources and workloads.
No need to pick and choose amongst rigid pre-defined prescribed solutions. Keep the focus on sharing resources fairly and appropriately rewarding beneficial actions and attempts. Given that infinite ways exist, we may never agree as one being the best. As more people are able to think critically, hopefully, we will as societies implement fairer solutions.
In a more ideal system, (almost) everyone should work a minimum amount of time towards sharing the workload needed for access to basic resources. (Almost) Everyone should be given the opportunity to fairly benefit from the access to non-essential resources in exchange for added time worked. Efforts should be rewarded much more than inherent superiorities (though that can also have some reward), or being randomly favored, or for finding a way to greatly (and unfairly) benefit from exploiting any given system of sharing resources and workloads. ... Will have to get into greater detail some other time ...
Sincerely,
Aouie
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Posted by: Damhnait on Dec 8, 2008 12:38 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What really counts for our twentyfold increase in "productivity" is the increased use of mechanical and fossil substitutes for human or animal labor and plant-based fuels, which have much less power than fossil energy and the tools it powers. Although certainly knowledge is a contributing factor, it doesn't fuel our cars or our power plants or our cargo ships. That's done with oil and coal and natural gas and nukes. Modern prosperity has been built on that one-time bonus gift of the earth, and when it's gone, the lights will go out and all that electronically stored knowledge will disappear as well unless we smarten up and adopt alternative energy sources.
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Posted by: Col. Jackleg on Dec 8, 2008 2:59 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is the ONLY site that is balanced, properly analytical and objectively comments on contemporary politics. Of course it is socialistic in every respect, but I'll be damned if I disagree and when compared to this subject article I find little difference in the respective criticism and suggested corrections. I have endured enough conservative economics to last my lifetime but apparently the Democrats don't get it and are letting Bush/Cheney/Paulson/Bernanke empty the filthy lucre coffers while Pelosi plays Lewinsky to Bush and Obamarama pisses into the wind. I'll take Marx to anything on the table right now.
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» MARX FAILED TO SEE THE CONSEQUENCES -->
Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: MARX FAILED TO SEE THE CONSEQUENCES -->
Posted by: willymack
» RE: MARX FAILED TO SEE THE CONSEQUENCES -->
Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: Karl Marx knew, will we ever learn?
Posted by: kiatoa
» RE: Henry George
Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: Karl Marx knew, will we ever learn?
Posted by: sherman
» SocialistWorker.org
Posted by: Col. Jackleg
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Suzon on Dec 8, 2008 3:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We need to stop living like medieval warriors and learn to act like responsible grown-ups. Break with the past!
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Posted by: just john on Dec 8, 2008 4:39 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Good eye
Posted by: helenahanbasquet
» RE: Good eye
Posted by: helenahanbasquet
» RE: What's this got to do with deserts?
Posted by: EncinoM
» You're making fools of yourselves
Posted by: stormchilde1975
Comments are closed-
Posted by: GarrisonPayneLeonard38H on Dec 8, 2008 5:00 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am gratified to see that the authors can cite research: I've been posting this kind of analysis to various forums for several years, but with limited time and funds could provide nothing more than circumstantial proofs.
We must not, in celebrating this new validation, forget Greenie, the Grand Dragon of the Wall Street Klan: The evidence is now piled high that he rolled out a red carpet of lies to smooth the way for his buddies in the Greed Elite. Because Greenie has run interference for Reaganite/Bushite Wealthy-Fare for over thirty years, his is at the top of my shortlist of Perp-Walks To Heal The Nation.
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Posted by: redbird30328 on Dec 8, 2008 5:09 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» rebut yourself
Posted by: stormchilde1975
» RE: Author belies his own arguments
Posted by: anubeon
» Capitalism is the goal of mankind?
Posted by: sliver
» Tell me exactly what products or services...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: maxpayne on Dec 8, 2008 6:37 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: sekfetenmet on Dec 8, 2008 8:29 AM
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Posted by: Last Chance on Dec 8, 2008 7:17 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: 2dogarage on Dec 8, 2008 7:25 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He enrolled the common worker on the tax rolls as though they were business owners "for the good of all".
Now it's happening again and billions are being stolen from the American people and yet Obama poses on the cover of Time magazine as the next FDR and everyone thinks it's so wonderful.
I personally think that FDR's big brother nanny state policies have enabled people to abdicate their responsibility to live independently within their means and take care of their families while robbing them of their personal wealth, ensuring that they will indeed need "Daddy Warbucks" to take care of them in their old age.
The "naked emperor" syndrome that characterizes the Bush administration pales in comparison to FDR's, who remains popular to this day. I guess you can fool all the people all the time.
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» FDR a big brother nanny? Get real.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: FDR a big brother nanny? Get real.
Posted by: 2dogarage
» RE: FDR a big brother nanny? Get real.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: FDR a big brother nanny? Get real.
Posted by: Social liberal
» RE: FDR a big brother nanny? Get real.
Posted by: maxpayne
» Calm down, Max
Posted by: 2dogarage
» FDR Saved America
Posted by: Last Chance
Comments are closed-
Posted by: littlepitcher on Dec 8, 2008 7:43 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Same with Buffett, who ran many businesses with undocumented/illegal Mexican labor running methamphetamines and brown heroin into America. Lotsa undocumented money there, too. When the American economy hit the worst recessionary streak since the Depression, he paid forward on his freebies from society by closing plants, laying off Americans en masse, contributing to foreclosures so his buddies could bargain shop our properties, and then shucking the financial damages onto Obama's proposed make-work programs, so the working American could pay the wages instead of his, and his buddies, corporate structures.
And Obama, having received mucho campaign contributions from his buddy Buffett and corporate cronies, will jump when Warren says "froggie". Don't expect change from any of this crew, any more than you could expect it from McCain.
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Posted by: Social liberal on Dec 8, 2008 7:54 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If this is the answer Sweden should have one of the lowest income inequalities in the western world. Sweden has one of the world’s largest public sectors, comprehensive welfare system and the world’s highest taxes (both as a percentage of GDP, >50%, as well as highest marginal taxation, 80 %, starting at very low levels of income, USD 40,000, a minimum wage earner pays 60 % of her income in tax)
However the opposite is in fact true, income inequality is among the highest in all western countries is higher than the US.
According to the Luxembourg Wealth Study (2006) the Gini coefficient of wealth (the most common measure of inequality) is 0.89 in Sweden and 0.81 in the U.S. (A high value, Gini coefficient, indicates high inequality. If the Gini coefficient is 1 everything is owned by a single individual.)
So much for income redistribution and high taxes, the answer to these very strange phenomena has a simple answer. In a super high tax society the already rich remain rich; nobody is able to become rich by entrepreneurship or hard work. The very rich, top 1 %, has successfully lobbied for high taxes and has cooperated with the Swedish labor unions to keep the middle class poor, punished excellence. The CEOs of large corporations and the labor unions have together with the political class made certain that small business owners is punished and that they are unable to compete with Swedish large corporations as well as made it virtually impossible to run a small business i.e become wealthy. In the US in comparison the super wealthy almost all have small business or entrepreneurial origins. Very few of the super rich, top 1 %, are CEOs or old wealth, the most despicable class of all, lazy ass trusts fund babies, most often limousine liberals all.
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» RE: Sweden is more uequal than the US - Incorrect
Posted by: sekfetenmet
» RE: Sweden is more uequal than the US - Correct
Posted by: Social liberal
» Typical rightwing foam-at-the-mouth lunatic who hates America and wants to kill it.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Sweden is more uequal than the US
Posted by: sekfetenmet
» To use the phrase "wealth redistribution" as a negative assumes the wealth was
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
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Posted by: ganjablue on Dec 8, 2008 8:03 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Why does no one really want to stand against government "force" taking money...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» You have to understand
Posted by: stormchilde1975
» So it is luck that create great invetions, not skill and effort?
Posted by: Social liberal
» I don't mind
Posted by: stormchilde1975
» Risk is everything and tax dollar payed education should be rationed (the arts, ballet, music)
Posted by: Social liberal
» You can't simultaneously argue
Posted by: stormchilde1975
» RE: You can't simultaneously argue
Posted by: EncinoM
» What, are you kidding?
Posted by: stormchilde1975
» Dim view of individual?
Posted by: bingahaba
» No offense intended
Posted by: stormchilde1975
» not at all [Off topic ;)]
Posted by: bingahaba
» RE: Dim view of individual?
Posted by: EncinoM
» on stormchilde1975
Posted by: bingahaba
» The Death tax and the property tax are the best taxes
Posted by: Social liberal
» Death tax is a rightwing misnomer, dipshit. And property taxes? You ain't no liberal dude.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Death tax is a rightwing misnomer, dipshit. And property taxes? You ain't no liberal dude.
Posted by: EncinoM
» Dude, read my post before commenting I am all for high Estate and property taxes, that is liberal
Posted by: Social liberal
» Rich people's wealth is not simply the product of their own efforts. Rich people are helped along
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Dec 8, 2008 8:11 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Stanford economists have concluded that one person isn't more than one person. "Next Time, on Nova".
How much work did that research take? I hope it was funded by a private grant and not public dollars.
Back on topic, we waste more money than we'd ever extract for the effort, even in a hugely successful class war.
Pick yer battles, eh?
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Posted by: Social liberal on Dec 8, 2008 8:13 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Swedish taxes was in the mid 1970's raised by 50 % overnight, one would assume that this would have meant a higher degree of income equality, nothing of the kind, the income inequality is exactly the same over these 30 years.
So a large welfare system and extreme taxes is in fact not the answer to eradicating income inequality, sorry guys.
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» RE: Sorry guys the tax laws have very little to do with it, Sweden is more unequal than the US
Posted by: kiatoa
» RE: Sorry guys the tax laws have very little to do with it, Sweden is more unequal than the US
Posted by: sekfetenmet
» High taxes and comprehensive welfare has not lead to reduction of income inequality in Sweden
Posted by: Social liberal
» Put a sock in it. Sweden has plenty to boast about while the US is a LAUGHING STOCK for being the
Posted by: maxpayne
» And by the way, what's the national debt in Sweden? Certainly not 10 trillion.
Posted by: maxpayne
» It is about half of the US but that is thanks to very harsh fiscal responsible policies
Posted by: Social liberal
» The US is the biggest debtor because its economy is 40 % of world economy
Posted by: Social liberal
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Posted by: jtroane on Dec 8, 2008 8:16 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Ski on Dec 8, 2008 8:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: ComandanteZenyattaJon
Posted by: Cynic13
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Posted by: Don Quixote on Dec 8, 2008 8:55 AM
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Posted by: meisterq on Dec 8, 2008 9:09 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are many arguments to be made that wealth is distributed unequally relative to risk, but this attempt to revise history to show that technological advancements and productivity increases are somehow socialized commodities is ridiculous.
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» Well, you see, the problem is...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Well, you see, the problem is...
Posted by: meisterq
» 80 % of the wealthy are entreprenurs and small business owners, not CEOs and Hedge fund managers
Posted by: Social liberal
» No individual can claim credit
Posted by: stormchilde1975
» RE: No individual can claim credit
Posted by: meisterq
» We can't be sure,
Posted by: stormchilde1975
» RE: We can't be sure,
Posted by: meisterq
» Here's the argument
Posted by: stormchilde1975
» RE: Here's the argument
Posted by: meisterq
» RE: We can be sure,
Posted by: Social liberal
» just want to add that Bill Gates' dad was a lawyer...
Posted by: Suzon
» You miss the point
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: You miss the point
Posted by: meisterq
» Sweden is close to functional socialism, it is stilll most uequal country (Gini wise)
Posted by: Social liberal
Comments are closed-
Posted by: billwald on Dec 8, 2008 9:14 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Don't believe me? Read some pre-war books. Before the war most of the middle class had live in servants. Half the people who came through Ellis Island became servants and the rest worked in sweat shops.
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» The "post WW2 phenomenon"
Posted by: stormchilde1975
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Posted by: fanny666 on Dec 8, 2008 10:14 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Write to the transition team and tell them what you think of this
ExtremeInequality.org
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Dec 8, 2008 10:59 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Easily--the wealthy just regard it as a just reward for being somehow "superior" to the rest of us schmucks.
I live in rural Nebraska, and you should see how some of the well-to-do around here froth at the mouth over the mere thought of biological Evolution.
But when it comes to wealth, they FULLY believe in the most ruthless social and economic Darwinism "survival of the fittest".
Throw in a religious belief that god rewards those who lead a "good" life with wealth, and you have people who can justify the most ruthless exploitation of others and the unbridled concentration of wealth.
Which is why I turned my back on religion years ago.
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Posted by: leafsong1 on Dec 8, 2008 11:11 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Seize all but the first billion
Posted by: EncinoM
» The power is already there, friend. I pay taxes, and so do you.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: The power is already there, friend. I pay taxes, and so do you.
Posted by: EncinoM
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Spiritgirl on Dec 8, 2008 11:17 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The last 8 years have been the worst as de-regulation ushered in the Ponzi/Pyramid schemes that have currently laid waste to our economy! Deceptive advertising, and a "keeping up the Jones mentality" and "easy credit" were another wheel on the cart! All the while costs of goods and services are on the rise, unfortunately our paychecks were not!
We have only to look at the parade of CEO's with their hands out before Congress for proof! Are you kidding me? These are the last people that need securitization for "their golden parachutes" all the while laying the real workers off! We the people need to wake up and stop installing people in government that continue to work against our common interests and solely for big business!
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Posted by: pelican beak on Dec 8, 2008 11:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I was always bothered that Woody Guthrie's song, "This Land is Your Land," was a celebration of the success of imperialism. First you steal it, then you write a song celebrating that it's yours.
The author of this piece strikes me as being in his own way how the wealthy he criticizes are in theirs - with an absolutely shameless sense of entitlement.
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» I get what you're saying,
Posted by: stormchilde1975
» I interpreted the article, in part, as a retrospective.
Posted by: pelican beak
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Posted by: willymack on Dec 8, 2008 11:59 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: 876 on Dec 8, 2008 12:33 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Delusional points--Agreed
Posted by: idmaster2000
» RE: Delusional points
Posted by: tjg1984
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Posted by: 876 on Dec 8, 2008 12:36 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Convenient truths
Posted by: EncinoM
» It's uncomfortable
Posted by: stormchilde1975
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Posted by: wormfarmer on Dec 8, 2008 1:06 PM
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» RE: Succeeding generations
Posted by: Last Chance
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Posted by: femmyv on Dec 8, 2008 2:02 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Intellectual property rights threaten to do to our society what Enclosure did to England: make it more difficult for individuals to operate independently of the current class of power-players.
GM/GE food is the most obvious example. In this case, public domain knowledge of food production, the product of millenniums, is threatened with extinction as patented seed replaces farmer-produced seed.
Then you have cases where, as a requirement of employment, an individual signs a contract that gives their employer all IP rights to anything they might think up while they're working for that employer.
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» RE: This Article Points to the Danger of "Intellectual Enclosure"
Posted by: meisterq
» RE: This Article Points to the Danger of "Intellectual Enclosure"
Posted by: Nungut
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Posted by: Nungut on Dec 8, 2008 3:46 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In essence, what you are saying is, that if I invent something that is a powerful problem solver for people, and it becomes wildly popular, and I sell more of them than I had ever conceived... I don't really deserve to become wealthy from it. Forget that no one else came up with the idea, and it was my unique creative efforts that formed it, and brought it to fruition... maybe spent years of my life perfecting it... thousands of hours bringing it into form. Maybe... in a matter of years... the same number of hours that the average "worker" spends in a lifetime of work. And I'm not allowed ito turn that into wealth?
Something no one wants to talk about here... is CORRUPTION IN SYSTEMS as a matter of human beings nature of running amuck in the face of self centered fears.
What we are seeing right now is NOT the collapse of Capitalism. It is the collapse of fascism... of a system that uses corruption and propaganda to loot the treasuries of human effort in the US and the world. It is as old as history.
Same thing with the collapse of Communism... and the collapse of Socialism. All of it is caused by human greed and avarice, leading to fascism.
What we OUGHT to outlaw is corruption and theft. Oh... wait a minute. There's already laws on the books for that, even though WE THE PEOPLE don't enforce those laws.
The answers won't be found in replacement of one failed ideology with another failed ideology.
The answers will be found closer to home, when folks quit whining and begging for a system of government to become the police of rightness. Try being the owners of your own government, and quit expecting hired government bullies to enforce what's right.
If you can't be bothered to be one of "we the people", and take responsibility for the corruption you allowed to grow during you and your parents lifetimes, and DO something about it...
Then just shut up...
The government... here... in China... in Russia... in ________ (fill in) have fixed things up to, and even, to death. That's what unchecked governments do EVERY TIME! UNLESS... the population of the country in question holds those in power to account.
Burst the bubbles you are living in and learn more about a wider range of the history of civilizations over the time of recorded history... and WHO is responsible for their goverments...
Then, quit whining and get off your butts and DO something ...
The only time any people have overthrown the looters and theives of the corruption and propaganda spreading fascists of economic control, is when they rise up and say "that's enough!! No more!! Let's get em!!!
Think about it...
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» I want to agree
Posted by: stormchilde1975
» RE: I want to agree
Posted by: Nungut
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Posted by: Smartcookie on Dec 8, 2008 7:15 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Nature is the source of all wealth...
Posted by: mtnprivy
» Meet the new boss, same as the old boss
Posted by: PaulD
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Posted by: CommonDreamer on Dec 8, 2008 7:36 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But more importantly, symbiosis is very important and has been completely thrown aside in the amoral quest for profits and obscene money-grubbing, show-offy and empty brained culture that we have engendered by making the GNP our god, while the family goes down the drain.
I think we can now rest assured that all of the best and brightest sophistry can be laid to rest and I hope we can build an America that works for all - because everyone contributes. After all, has any CEO ever done the work of 400 or 4,000 workers? Has any CEO raised himself and not benefited from the many advantages society offers. You would think they built it all themselves....but we know otherwise. The emperor has no clothes and it's time to get back to some kind of holistic, spiritual and symbiotic existence and throw the money and superiority pathologies out the window - for good.
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Dec 9, 2008 6:39 AM
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What exactly *is* the strategy to eat the rich? And what if you're a vegan?
But seriously, the rich aren't going anywhere because nobody stands up to them. It's not as if we're going to strike to bring this country to it's knees...and even if we did, our jobs would be outsourced in a heartbeat. Eat the rich? At this point, we're lucky just to eat some rice.
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Posted by: PaulD on Dec 10, 2008 12:13 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Those who complain so bitterly about the rich are usually the very ones who facilitated their rise to wealth and power. For example, judging by their actions, most of this article’s commenters were happy to help Bill Gates make billions because they bought machines loaded with his software.
Stripped to its essence, this article tries to make respectable the motives of the schoolyard bully - "They have it, we want it, let's take it."
(Full disclosure: Alternet's fair and balanced approach discourages readers from responding to “conservative talking points.”)
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Posted by: PaulD on Dec 10, 2008 12:16 AM
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Those who complain so bitterly about the rich are usually the very ones who facilitated their rise to wealth and power. For example, judging by their actions, most of this article’s commenters were happy to help Bill Gates make billions because they bought machines loaded with his software.
Stripped to its essence, this article tries to make respectable the motives of the schoolyard bully - "They have it, we want it, let's take it."
(Full disclosure: Alternet's fair and balanced approach discourages readers from responding to “conservative talking points.”)
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Posted by: Deathbunny on Dec 10, 2008 2:41 PM
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The "gift" of the American system is not the wealth as much as the system where your ability to own property is respected and not subject (much) to the arbitrary whims of other people without some form of recourse.
In this case, differences between humans and their situations result in differences in wealth and power.
Because of the system, however, the successes of people not currently in power can be maintained and built upon by their children.
What's the alternative system?
Simple, junk the money system and go to a needs based or a merit based system that is oriented around some particular goal.
The needs based system can work, but because of the difficulty in identifying who contributes versus what they receive, it's hard to identify cheaters in the system and--historically--these systems fail in large groups or turn into other systems.
A merit-based system where one receives based on their value to the group overlaps the money concept in short term, but reduces wealth accumulation across generations unless the traits causing the person to have more merit are inheritable or are passed from parent to offspring. If that's the case, you still get accumulation of power and "wealth".
Additionally, the "retaking" of wealth is sort of a pipe dream.
Why?
If you find a way to make the system let you take others' wealth, that means the system can just as easily turn around and take your wealth too. Essentially, you would need to violate the whole system you want to fix. The only people--in that situation--that would be able to resist the continuous redistribution of wealth are those with power--often arms and the cohesion of a group built on something other than economic means--and those people are typically the same sort of people who have the money in the first place.
Or their the "Red Staters" that also grow the food.
Honestly, all money is is an agreed upon measure of exchange. The amounts are totally relative and the only real value to it is the exchange of it.
If people accumulate too much, the flow stops and the system breaks down making it worth less. (Just like Wall Street).
What would be more useful is to simply identify what makes these people more successful overall and find ways to emulate or gain the means to emulate it.
Either that or just break society down into small groups of about 150-300 spread about with little contact with each other again.
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Posted by: mmckinl on Dec 8, 2008 12:21 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Very simply , these disparities can't be justified ...
The tax laws of the nation have been compromised to ensure the welfare of the rich and that of their progeny.
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» Every other law, too
Posted by: sliver
» Sorry guys the tax laws have very little to do with it, Sweden is more unequal than the US
Posted by: Social liberal
» Tax laws have very everything to do with it!
Posted by: kiatoa
» FACT CHECK re Sweden is more unequal than the US.
Posted by: sekfetenmet
» RE: FACT CHECK re Sweden is more unequal than the US.
Posted by: Social liberal
» Is that why Sweden has a better public infrastructure that more people can be proud of putting their
Posted by: maxpayne
» The point isn't to get rid of inequality in wealth...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» You are right, the solution is not extrem taxation...
Posted by: Social liberal
» "Social liberal"?? In orwell's world perhaps. You're not a "Social liberal"
Posted by: GuitarBill
» I am a classic social liberal, not (neo) conservative
Posted by: Social liberal
» Typical foam-at-the-mouth Republican. He's no liberal. He's a Raygunite looney.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: I am a classic social liberal, not (neo) conservative
Posted by: HoboHomo
» jealousy
Posted by: theVRWCwhodatesLiberals
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Posted by: aouie01 on Dec 8, 2008 12:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Rewarding work and sharing resources are almost universally recognized as desirable for building harmonious societies. Things that are often overlooked in societies is the relatively unfairly greater distribution of resources to those who inherit material wealth, or are genetically or financially at an advantage, or are just favored randomly (luck or notions of "grace of god"), or those who found a way to greatly (and unfairly) benefit from exploiting the current system of sharing resources and workloads.
No need to pick and choose amongst rigid pre-defined prescribed solutions. Keep the focus on sharing resources fairly and appropriately rewarding beneficial actions and attempts. Given that infinite ways exist, we may never agree as one being the best. As more people are able to think critically, hopefully, we will as societies implement fairer solutions.
In a more ideal system, (almost) everyone should work a minimum amount of time towards sharing the workload needed for access to basic resources. (Almost) Everyone should be given the opportunity to fairly benefit from the access to non-essential resources in exchange for added time worked. Efforts should be rewarded much more than inherent superiorities (though that can also have some reward), or being randomly favored, or for finding a way to greatly (and unfairly) benefit from exploiting any given system of sharing resources and workloads. ... Will have to get into greater detail some other time ...
Sincerely,
Aouie
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Posted by: Damhnait on Dec 8, 2008 12:38 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What really counts for our twentyfold increase in "productivity" is the increased use of mechanical and fossil substitutes for human or animal labor and plant-based fuels, which have much less power than fossil energy and the tools it powers. Although certainly knowledge is a contributing factor, it doesn't fuel our cars or our power plants or our cargo ships. That's done with oil and coal and natural gas and nukes. Modern prosperity has been built on that one-time bonus gift of the earth, and when it's gone, the lights will go out and all that electronically stored knowledge will disappear as well unless we smarten up and adopt alternative energy sources.
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Posted by: Col. Jackleg on Dec 8, 2008 2:59 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is the ONLY site that is balanced, properly analytical and objectively comments on contemporary politics. Of course it is socialistic in every respect, but I'll be damned if I disagree and when compared to this subject article I find little difference in the respective criticism and suggested corrections. I have endured enough conservative economics to last my lifetime but apparently the Democrats don't get it and are letting Bush/Cheney/Paulson/Bernanke empty the filthy lucre coffers while Pelosi plays Lewinsky to Bush and Obamarama pisses into the wind. I'll take Marx to anything on the table right now.
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» MARX FAILED TO SEE THE CONSEQUENCES -->
Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: MARX FAILED TO SEE THE CONSEQUENCES -->
Posted by: willymack
» RE: MARX FAILED TO SEE THE CONSEQUENCES -->
Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: Karl Marx knew, will we ever learn?
Posted by: kiatoa
» RE: Henry George
Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: Karl Marx knew, will we ever learn?
Posted by: sherman
» SocialistWorker.org
Posted by: Col. Jackleg
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Suzon on Dec 8, 2008 3:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We need to stop living like medieval warriors and learn to act like responsible grown-ups. Break with the past!
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Posted by: just john on Dec 8, 2008 4:39 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Good eye
Posted by: helenahanbasquet
» RE: Good eye
Posted by: helenahanbasquet
» RE: What's this got to do with deserts?
Posted by: EncinoM
» You're making fools of yourselves
Posted by: stormchilde1975
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Posted by: GarrisonPayneLeonard38H on Dec 8, 2008 5:00 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am gratified to see that the authors can cite research: I've been posting this kind of analysis to various forums for several years, but with limited time and funds could provide nothing more than circumstantial proofs.
We must not, in celebrating this new validation, forget Greenie, the Grand Dragon of the Wall Street Klan: The evidence is now piled high that he rolled out a red carpet of lies to smooth the way for his buddies in the Greed Elite. Because Greenie has run interference for Reaganite/Bushite Wealthy-Fare for over thirty years, his is at the top of my shortlist of Perp-Walks To Heal The Nation.
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Posted by: redbird30328 on Dec 8, 2008 5:09 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» rebut yourself
Posted by: stormchilde1975
» RE: Author belies his own arguments
Posted by: anubeon
» Capitalism is the goal of mankind?
Posted by: sliver
» Tell me exactly what products or services...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: maxpayne on Dec 8, 2008 6:37 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: sekfetenmet on Dec 8, 2008 8:29 AM
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Posted by: Last Chance on Dec 8, 2008 7:17 AM
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Posted by: 2dogarage on Dec 8, 2008 7:25 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He enrolled the common worker on the tax rolls as though they were business owners "for the good of all".
Now it's happening again and billions are being stolen from the American people and yet Obama poses on the cover of Time magazine as the next FDR and everyone thinks it's so wonderful.
I personally think that FDR's big brother nanny state policies have enabled people to abdicate their responsibility to live independently within their means and take care of their families while robbing them of their personal wealth, ensuring that they will indeed need "Daddy Warbucks" to take care of them in their old age.
The "naked emperor" syndrome that characterizes the Bush administration pales in comparison to FDR's, who remains popular to this day. I guess you can fool all the people all the time.
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» FDR a big brother nanny? Get real.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: FDR a big brother nanny? Get real.
Posted by: 2dogarage
» RE: FDR a big brother nanny? Get real.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: FDR a big brother nanny? Get real.
Posted by: Social liberal
» RE: FDR a big brother nanny? Get real.
Posted by: maxpayne
» Calm down, Max
Posted by: 2dogarage
» FDR Saved America
Posted by: Last Chance
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Posted by: littlepitcher on Dec 8, 2008 7:43 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Same with Buffett, who ran many businesses with undocumented/illegal Mexican labor running methamphetamines and brown heroin into America. Lotsa undocumented money there, too. When the American economy hit the worst recessionary streak since the Depression, he paid forward on his freebies from society by closing plants, laying off Americans en masse, contributing to foreclosures so his buddies could bargain shop our properties, and then shucking the financial damages onto Obama's proposed make-work programs, so the working American could pay the wages instead of his, and his buddies, corporate structures.
And Obama, having received mucho campaign contributions from his buddy Buffett and corporate cronies, will jump when Warren says "froggie". Don't expect change from any of this crew, any more than you could expect it from McCain.
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Posted by: Social liberal on Dec 8, 2008 7:54 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If this is the answer Sweden should have one of the lowest income inequalities in the western world. Sweden has one of the world’s largest public sectors, comprehensive welfare system and the world’s highest taxes (both as a percentage of GDP, >50%, as well as highest marginal taxation, 80 %, starting at very low levels of income, USD 40,000, a minimum wage earner pays 60 % of her income in tax)
However the opposite is in fact true, income inequality is among the highest in all western countries is higher than the US.
According to the Luxembourg Wealth Study (2006) the Gini coefficient of wealth (the most common measure of inequality) is 0.89 in Sweden and 0.81 in the U.S. (A high value, Gini coefficient, indicates high inequality. If the Gini coefficient is 1 everything is owned by a single individual.)
So much for income redistribution and high taxes, the answer to these very strange phenomena has a simple answer. In a super high tax society the already rich remain rich; nobody is able to become rich by entrepreneurship or hard work. The very rich, top 1 %, has successfully lobbied for high taxes and has cooperated with the Swedish labor unions to keep the middle class poor, punished excellence. The CEOs of large corporations and the labor unions have together with the political class made certain that small business owners is punished and that they are unable to compete with Swedish large corporations as well as made it virtually impossible to run a small business i.e become wealthy. In the US in comparison the super wealthy almost all have small business or entrepreneurial origins. Very few of the super rich, top 1 %, are CEOs or old wealth, the most despicable class of all, lazy ass trusts fund babies, most often limousine liberals all.
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» RE: Sweden is more uequal than the US - Incorrect
Posted by: sekfetenmet
» RE: Sweden is more uequal than the US - Correct
Posted by: Social liberal
» Typical rightwing foam-at-the-mouth lunatic who hates America and wants to kill it.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Sweden is more uequal than the US
Posted by: sekfetenmet
» To use the phrase "wealth redistribution" as a negative assumes the wealth was
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
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Posted by: ganjablue on Dec 8, 2008 8:03 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Why does no one really want to stand against government "force" taking money...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» You have to understand
Posted by: stormchilde1975
» So it is luck that create great invetions, not skill and effort?
Posted by: Social liberal
» I don't mind
Posted by: stormchilde1975
» Risk is everything and tax dollar payed education should be rationed (the arts, ballet, music)
Posted by: Social liberal
» You can't simultaneously argue
Posted by: stormchilde1975
» RE: You can't simultaneously argue
Posted by: EncinoM
» What, are you kidding?
Posted by: stormchilde1975
» Dim view of individual?
Posted by: bingahaba
» No offense intended
Posted by: stormchilde1975
» not at all [Off topic ;)]
Posted by: bingahaba
» RE: Dim view of individual?
Posted by: EncinoM
» on stormchilde1975
Posted by: bingahaba
» The Death tax and the property tax are the best taxes
Posted by: Social liberal
» Death tax is a rightwing misnomer, dipshit. And property taxes? You ain't no liberal dude.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Death tax is a rightwing misnomer, dipshit. And property taxes? You ain't no liberal dude.
Posted by: EncinoM
» Dude, read my post before commenting I am all for high Estate and property taxes, that is liberal
Posted by: Social liberal
» Rich people's wealth is not simply the product of their own efforts. Rich people are helped along
Posted by: and_abottleofrum
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Dec 8, 2008 8:11 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Stanford economists have concluded that one person isn't more than one person. "Next Time, on Nova".
How much work did that research take? I hope it was funded by a private grant and not public dollars.
Back on topic, we waste more money than we'd ever extract for the effort, even in a hugely successful class war.
Pick yer battles, eh?
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Posted by: Social liberal on Dec 8, 2008 8:13 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Swedish taxes was in the mid 1970's raised by 50 % overnight, one would assume that this would have meant a higher degree of income equality, nothing of the kind, the income inequality is exactly the same over these 30 years.
So a large welfare system and extreme taxes is in fact not the answer to eradicating income inequality, sorry guys.
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» RE: Sorry guys the tax laws have very little to do with it, Sweden is more unequal than the US
Posted by: kiatoa
» RE: Sorry guys the tax laws have very little to do with it, Sweden is more unequal than the US
Posted by: sekfetenmet
» High taxes and comprehensive welfare has not lead to reduction of income inequality in Sweden
Posted by: Social liberal
» Put a sock in it. Sweden has plenty to boast about while the US is a LAUGHING STOCK for being the
Posted by: maxpayne
» And by the way, what's the national debt in Sweden? Certainly not 10 trillion.
Posted by: maxpayne
» It is about half of the US but that is thanks to very harsh fiscal responsible policies
Posted by: Social liberal
» The US is the biggest debtor because its economy is 40 % of world economy
Posted by: Social liberal
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Posted by: jtroane on Dec 8, 2008 8:16 AM
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Posted by: Ski on Dec 8, 2008 8:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: ComandanteZenyattaJon
Posted by: Cynic13
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Posted by: Don Quixote on Dec 8, 2008 8:55 AM
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Posted by: meisterq on Dec 8, 2008 9:09 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are many arguments to be made that wealth is distributed unequally relative to risk, but this attempt to revise history to show that technological advancements and productivity increases are somehow socialized commodities is ridiculous.
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» Well, you see, the problem is...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Well, you see, the problem is...
Posted by: meisterq
» 80 % of the wealthy are entreprenurs and small business owners, not CEOs and Hedge fund managers
Posted by: Social liberal
» No individual can claim credit
Posted by: stormchilde1975
» RE: No individual can claim credit
Posted by: meisterq
» We can't be sure,
Posted by: stormchilde1975
» RE: We can't be sure,
Posted by: meisterq
» Here's the argument
Posted by: stormchilde1975
» RE: Here's the argument
Posted by: meisterq
» RE: We can be sure,
Posted by: Social liberal
» just want to add that Bill Gates' dad was a lawyer...
Posted by: Suzon
» You miss the point
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: You miss the point
Posted by: meisterq
» Sweden is close to functional socialism, it is stilll most uequal country (Gini wise)
Posted by: Social liberal
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Posted by: billwald on Dec 8, 2008 9:14 AM
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Don't believe me? Read some pre-war books. Before the war most of the middle class had live in servants. Half the people who came through Ellis Island became servants and the rest worked in sweat shops.
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» The "post WW2 phenomenon"
Posted by: stormchilde1975
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Posted by: fanny666 on Dec 8, 2008 10:14 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Write to the transition team and tell them what you think of this
ExtremeInequality.org
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Dec 8, 2008 10:59 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Easily--the wealthy just regard it as a just reward for being somehow "superior" to the rest of us schmucks.
I live in rural Nebraska, and you should see how some of the well-to-do around here froth at the mouth over the mere thought of biological Evolution.
But when it comes to wealth, they FULLY believe in the most ruthless social and economic Darwinism "survival of the fittest".
Throw in a religious belief that god rewards those who lead a "good" life with wealth, and you have people who can justify the most ruthless exploitation of others and the unbridled concentration of wealth.
Which is why I turned my back on religion years ago.
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Posted by: leafsong1 on Dec 8, 2008 11:11 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Seize all but the first billion
Posted by: EncinoM
» The power is already there, friend. I pay taxes, and so do you.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: The power is already there, friend. I pay taxes, and so do you.
Posted by: EncinoM
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Spiritgirl on Dec 8, 2008 11:17 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The last 8 years have been the worst as de-regulation ushered in the Ponzi/Pyramid schemes that have currently laid waste to our economy! Deceptive advertising, and a "keeping up the Jones mentality" and "easy credit" were another wheel on the cart! All the while costs of goods and services are on the rise, unfortunately our paychecks were not!
We have only to look at the parade of CEO's with their hands out before Congress for proof! Are you kidding me? These are the last people that need securitization for "their golden parachutes" all the while laying the real workers off! We the people need to wake up and stop installing people in government that continue to work against our common interests and solely for big business!
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Posted by: pelican beak on Dec 8, 2008 11:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I was always bothered that Woody Guthrie's song, "This Land is Your Land," was a celebration of the success of imperialism. First you steal it, then you write a song celebrating that it's yours.
The author of this piece strikes me as being in his own way how the wealthy he criticizes are in theirs - with an absolutely shameless sense of entitlement.
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» I get what you're saying,
Posted by: stormchilde1975
» I interpreted the article, in part, as a retrospective.
Posted by: pelican beak
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Posted by: willymack on Dec 8, 2008 11:59 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: 876 on Dec 8, 2008 12:33 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Delusional points--Agreed
Posted by: idmaster2000
» RE: Delusional points
Posted by: tjg1984
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Posted by: 876 on Dec 8, 2008 12:36 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Convenient truths
Posted by: EncinoM
» It's uncomfortable
Posted by: stormchilde1975
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Posted by: wormfarmer on Dec 8, 2008 1:06 PM
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» RE: Succeeding generations
Posted by: Last Chance
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Posted by: femmyv on Dec 8, 2008 2:02 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Intellectual property rights threaten to do to our society what Enclosure did to England: make it more difficult for individuals to operate independently of the current class of power-players.
GM/GE food is the most obvious example. In this case, public domain knowledge of food production, the product of millenniums, is threatened with extinction as patented seed replaces farmer-produced seed.
Then you have cases where, as a requirement of employment, an individual signs a contract that gives their employer all IP rights to anything they might think up while they're working for that employer.
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» RE: This Article Points to the Danger of "Intellectual Enclosure"
Posted by: meisterq
» RE: This Article Points to the Danger of "Intellectual Enclosure"
Posted by: Nungut
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Posted by: Nungut on Dec 8, 2008 3:46 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In essence, what you are saying is, that if I invent something that is a powerful problem solver for people, and it becomes wildly popular, and I sell more of them than I had ever conceived... I don't really deserve to become wealthy from it. Forget that no one else came up with the idea, and it was my unique creative efforts that formed it, and brought it to fruition... maybe spent years of my life perfecting it... thousands of hours bringing it into form. Maybe... in a matter of years... the same number of hours that the average "worker" spends in a lifetime of work. And I'm not allowed ito turn that into wealth?
Something no one wants to talk about here... is CORRUPTION IN SYSTEMS as a matter of human beings nature of running amuck in the face of self centered fears.
What we are seeing right now is NOT the collapse of Capitalism. It is the collapse of fascism... of a system that uses corruption and propaganda to loot the treasuries of human effort in the US and the world. It is as old as history.
Same thing with the collapse of Communism... and the collapse of Socialism. All of it is caused by human greed and avarice, leading to fascism.
What we OUGHT to outlaw is corruption and theft. Oh... wait a minute. There's already laws on the books for that, even though WE THE PEOPLE don't enforce those laws.
The answers won't be found in replacement of one failed ideology with another failed ideology.
The answers will be found closer to home, when folks quit whining and begging for a system of government to become the police of rightness. Try being the owners of your own government, and quit expecting hired government bullies to enforce what's right.
If you can't be bothered to be one of "we the people", and take responsibility for the corruption you allowed to grow during you and your parents lifetimes, and DO something about it...
Then just shut up...
The government... here... in China... in Russia... in ________ (fill in) have fixed things up to, and even, to death. That's what unchecked governments do EVERY TIME! UNLESS... the population of the country in question holds those in power to account.
Burst the bubbles you are living in and learn more about a wider range of the history of civilizations over the time of recorded history... and WHO is responsible for their goverments...
Then, quit whining and get off your butts and DO something ...
The only time any people have overthrown the looters and theives of the corruption and propaganda spreading fascists of economic control, is when they rise up and say "that's enough!! No more!! Let's get em!!!
Think about it...
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» I want to agree
Posted by: stormchilde1975
» RE: I want to agree
Posted by: Nungut
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Posted by: Smartcookie on Dec 8, 2008 7:15 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Nature is the source of all wealth...
Posted by: mtnprivy
» Meet the new boss, same as the old boss
Posted by: PaulD
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Posted by: CommonDreamer on Dec 8, 2008 7:36 PM
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But more importantly, symbiosis is very important and has been completely thrown aside in the amoral quest for profits and obscene money-grubbing, show-offy and empty brained culture that we have engendered by making the GNP our god, while the family goes down the drain.
I think we can now rest assured that all of the best and brightest sophistry can be laid to rest and I hope we can build an America that works for all - because everyone contributes. After all, has any CEO ever done the work of 400 or 4,000 workers? Has any CEO raised himself and not benefited from the many advantages society offers. You would think they built it all themselves....but we know otherwise. The emperor has no clothes and it's time to get back to some kind of holistic, spiritual and symbiotic existence and throw the money and superiority pathologies out the window - for good.
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Dec 9, 2008 6:39 AM
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What exactly *is* the strategy to eat the rich? And what if you're a vegan?
But seriously, the rich aren't going anywhere because nobody stands up to them. It's not as if we're going to strike to bring this country to it's knees...and even if we did, our jobs would be outsourced in a heartbeat. Eat the rich? At this point, we're lucky just to eat some rice.
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Posted by: PaulD on Dec 10, 2008 12:13 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Those who complain so bitterly about the rich are usually the very ones who facilitated their rise to wealth and power. For example, judging by their actions, most of this article’s commenters were happy to help Bill Gates make billions because they bought machines loaded with his software.
Stripped to its essence, this article tries to make respectable the motives of the schoolyard bully - "They have it, we want it, let's take it."
(Full disclosure: Alternet's fair and balanced approach discourages readers from responding to “conservative talking points.”)
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Posted by: PaulD on Dec 10, 2008 12:16 AM
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Those who complain so bitterly about the rich are usually the very ones who facilitated their rise to wealth and power. For example, judging by their actions, most of this article’s commenters were happy to help Bill Gates make billions because they bought machines loaded with his software.
Stripped to its essence, this article tries to make respectable the motives of the schoolyard bully - "They have it, we want it, let's take it."
(Full disclosure: Alternet's fair and balanced approach discourages readers from responding to “conservative talking points.”)
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Posted by: Deathbunny on Dec 10, 2008 2:41 PM
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The "gift" of the American system is not the wealth as much as the system where your ability to own property is respected and not subject (much) to the arbitrary whims of other people without some form of recourse.
In this case, differences between humans and their situations result in differences in wealth and power.
Because of the system, however, the successes of people not currently in power can be maintained and built upon by their children.
What's the alternative system?
Simple, junk the money system and go to a needs based or a merit based system that is oriented around some particular goal.
The needs based system can work, but because of the difficulty in identifying who contributes versus what they receive, it's hard to identify cheaters in the system and--historically--these systems fail in large groups or turn into other systems.
A merit-based system where one receives based on their value to the group overlaps the money concept in short term, but reduces wealth accumulation across generations unless the traits causing the person to have more merit are inheritable or are passed from parent to offspring. If that's the case, you still get accumulation of power and "wealth".
Additionally, the "retaking" of wealth is sort of a pipe dream.
Why?
If you find a way to make the system let you take others' wealth, that means the system can just as easily turn around and take your wealth too. Essentially, you would need to violate the whole system you want to fix. The only people--in that situation--that would be able to resist the continuous redistribution of wealth are those with power--often arms and the cohesion of a group built on something other than economic means--and those people are typically the same sort of people who have the money in the first place.
Or their the "Red Staters" that also grow the food.
Honestly, all money is is an agreed upon measure of exchange. The amounts are totally relative and the only real value to it is the exchange of it.
If people accumulate too much, the flow stops and the system breaks down making it worth less. (Just like Wall Street).
What would be more useful is to simply identify what makes these people more successful overall and find ways to emulate or gain the means to emulate it.
Either that or just break society down into small groups of about 150-300 spread about with little contact with each other again.
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