AlterNet / By Robert Jensen
comments_imageCOMMENTS: 293

No Thanks to Thanksgiving

Instead, we should atone for the genocide that was incited -- and condoned -- by the very men we idolize as our 'heroic' founding fathers.
November 27, 2008  |  
 
 
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One indication of moral progress in the United States would be the replacement of Thanksgiving Day and its self-indulgent family feasting with a National Day of Atonement accompanied by a self-reflective collective fasting.

In fact, indigenous people have offered such a model; since 1970 they have marked the fourth Thursday of November as a Day of Mourning in a spiritual/political ceremony on Coles Hill overlooking Plymouth Rock, Mass., one of the early sites of the European invasion of the Americas.

Not only is the thought of such a change in this white-supremacist holiday impossible to imagine, but the very mention of the idea sends most Americans into apoplectic fits -- which speaks volumes about our historical hypocrisy and its relation to the contemporary politics of empire in the United States.

That the world's great powers achieved "greatness" through criminal brutality on a grand scale is not news, of course. That those same societies are reluctant to highlight this history of barbarism also is predictable.

But in the United States, this reluctance to acknowledge our original sin -- the genocide of indigenous people -- is of special importance today. It's now routine -- even among conservative commentators -- to describe the United States as an empire, so long as everyone understands we are an inherently benevolent one. Because all our history contradicts that claim, history must be twisted and tortured to serve the purposes of the powerful.

One vehicle for taming history is various patriotic holidays, with Thanksgiving at the heart of U.S. myth-building. From an early age, we Americans hear a story about the hardy Pilgrims, whose search for freedom took them from England to Massachusetts. There, aided by the friendly Wampanoag Indians, they survived in a new and harsh environment, leading to a harvest feast in 1621 following the Pilgrims' first winter.

Some aspects of the conventional story are true enough. But it's also true that by 1637, Massachusetts Gov. John Winthrop was proclaiming a thanksgiving for the successful massacre of hundreds of Pequot Indian men, women and children, part of the long and bloody process of opening up additional land to the English invaders. The pattern would repeat itself across the continent until between 95 and 99 percent of American Indians had been exterminated and the rest were left to assimilate into white society or die off on reservations, out of the view of polite society.

Simply put: Thanksgiving is the day when the dominant white culture (and, sadly, most of the rest of the nonwhite but non-indigenous population) celebrates the beginning of a genocide that was, in fact, blessed by the men we hold up as our heroic founding fathers.

The first president, George Washington, in 1783 said he preferred buying Indians' land rather than driving them off it because that was like driving "wild beasts" from the forest. He compared Indians to wolves, "both being beasts of prey, tho' they differ in shape."

Thomas Jefferson -- president No. 3 and author of the Declaration of Independence, which refers to Indians as the "merciless Indian Savages" -- was known to romanticize Indians and their culture, but that didn't stop him in 1807 from writing to his secretary of war that in a coming conflict with certain tribes, "[W]e shall destroy all of them."

As the genocide was winding down in the early 20th century, Theodore Roosevelt (president No. 26) defended the expansion of whites across the continent as an inevitable process "due solely to the power of the mighty civilized races which have not lost the fighting instinct, and which by their expansion are gradually bringing peace into the red wastes where the barbarian peoples of the world hold sway."


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Robert Jensen is a journalism professor at the University of Texas at Austin and board member of the Third Coast Activist Resource Center. His latest book, All My Bones Shake: Radical Politics in the Prophetic Voice, will be published in 2009 by Soft Skull Press. He also is the author of Getting Off: Pornography and the End of Masculinity (South End Press, 2007).
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Get a new article.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: RoffleTheWaffle on Nov 27, 2008 12:15 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Seriously, is it some kind of Alternet tradition to post this same whiny, self-important diatribe every year? At least let someone else bitch and moan about the holiday for a change, jeez.

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» RE: Get a new article. Posted by: Martin32
» Nothing was stolen . . . Posted by: Scientz
» RE: Get a new article. Posted by: perri6
» RE: Get a new article. Posted by: masthead
» RE: Get a new article. Posted by: raymondg
» RE: Get a new article. Posted by: NickJones
» Preaching to the Choir Posted by: jonnymil
» RE: Preaching to the Choir Posted by: daveinchi
» RE: Preaching to the Choir Posted by: jonnymil
» RE: Preaching to the Choir Posted by: pelican beak
» RE: Preaching to the Choir Posted by: bornxeyed
» Every. Fucking. Year. Posted by: daveinchi
» RE: very. Fucking. Year. Posted by: gathaiga
» RE: very. Fucking. Year. Posted by: pelican beak
» RE: Get a new article. Posted by: sirios
» RE: Get a new article. Posted by: lovercat2942
» RE: Get a new article. Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Get a new article. Posted by: bornxeyed
» great point. Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» Here's another clue Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Here's another clue Posted by: bornxeyed
» As an atheist... Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Get a new article. Posted by: john mont
» RE: Get a new article. Posted by: bornxeyed
» Get a new conscience! Posted by: bornxeyed
» Get a new dictionary Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Get a new dictionary Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Get a new conscience! Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: Get a new article. Posted by: kahuna_2bears

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I'm appreciating this article
[Report this comment]
Posted by: oceansong on Nov 27, 2008 1:34 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The writer of this article says that many people ask:
"Why do you insist on dwelling on the past?"
I think the answer is - because the so-called past isn't the past.

The exploitation of Native Americans is still continuing to this day. Our government continues to rip off the funds that it is supposedly managing for Native tribes; our government continues to withhold medical and social services that are due to various tribes; our government continues to deny the rights of various tribes to exist; our government continues to break treaties and take Native lands when mineral resources are found on Native land, etc, etc.

And we, as individuals, continue to ignore and minimize the racism directed at Native people. Our collective awareness has slowly awakened to racism directed at African Americans - especially since we now have elected our first black President.

But our individual and collective awareness remains blind to the continuing abuses towards Native peoples.
If we truly regret the genocide & the exploitation of the past, then we have a responsibility to stop the exploitation and abuses of the present.
As a friend of mine says:
Sorry only counts if you don't do it again.

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» How? Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: How? Posted by: WWMD
» RE: How? Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: How? Posted by: WWMD
» RE: How? Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: How? Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: How? Posted by: WWMD

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They didn't know they were people!
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Posted by: Javan on Nov 27, 2008 1:36 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Years ago I asked my dad who was born 1895 how they could treat people like that. I was referring to Indians and Slaves. To my amazement he said, "We didn't know they were people". Hard to believe, isn't it!

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it's hard to break new ground in human understanding (thank you, Prof Jensen)
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Posted by: Suzon on Nov 27, 2008 2:43 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Cromwell was no real improvement over Charles the First as any informed Irish person can tell you.

I would only suggest to Prof Jensen that the US is not really a former colony (or collection of former colonies). The Norman-English empire remains alive and well in the form of corporations and the use of law for criminal purposes.

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For years I have operated a thanksgiving day feed for those who have no home, but are hungry.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Nightstallion on Nov 27, 2008 2:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Whether people show up or not, there is food here. I do this out of my home, all I ask is that you leave your politics along with your prejudices at the door. As long as I have you will too for at least this one day.

I am not rich bring your own desert or share a dish here. I don't provide sweets. Some of us are diabetic. I don't serve beef but I have a ham and a turkey if you are willing to share bring whatever you will.

I have done this for forty years in remembrance of Pogo the Opossum. It is not for the U. S. of A. but for the homies human Martian fourleggers or nonhuman two leggers welcome just don't bite the other guests.

Check your asshole at the door and come on in.

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national educational systems extol national heritage
[Report this comment]
Posted by: wurlybird9 on Nov 27, 2008 3:03 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What nation doesn't pat itself on the back regarding its genesis? At least WE, the INDIVIDUALS (i'm not really sure who or *what* the People are anymore) have fairly easy access to this information. Good luck digging up this kind of dirt in some true totalitarian regime. Their leaders couldn't possibly do wrong.

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Thanksgiving
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Nov 27, 2008 3:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These articles seem to assume that we take our holidays seriously in the first place. To me, it was never about much more than pigging out, boring parades, and putting in my time with annoying relatives.

Even so, this one does bring out a point which is of particular relevance these days: In their zeal to highlight the excesses of the current regime, many have resorted to idealizing not only the "Founding Fathers", but more recent periods in history when the US was supposedly a shining example and beacon of hope for the world...Furthermore, they seem under the illusion that Obama is going to bring back that which never was and never will be.

Though it may be convenient to see the last 8 years as a tragic detour, a critical understanding of the US--or any country--requires getting past all myths throughout its history. As much as some would love to see the US as a moral leader at some point in our history or future, I think it's a bad idea altogether. One of the best ways to help the world is to stop being so full of ourselves and admit we're ordinary shmucks like the rest of them.

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OK some bad things happened
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Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line on Nov 27, 2008 4:25 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They happen all the time. I personally am grateful for every little blessing. THeres a lot to be grateful for and Thanksgiving is a way to celebrate this with our friends and family. If you want to atone for the sins of otherss by all means have at it.. I am going to practice my gratitude and spread it around.

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» RE: OK some bad things happened Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» Point well taken, Fat Man Posted by: pelican beak
» RE: OK some bad things happened Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: OK some bad things happened Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: OK some bad things happened Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: OK some bad things happened Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line

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My Favorite Holiday
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Posted by: Todd Kimmell on Nov 27, 2008 4:27 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thanksgiving, whe we bother to tell the story of it to our kids either at home or at school, is a story about when the almighty settlers of 'The New World' were about to starve to death. Some people of color, some local folks who knew how things worked and were willing to teach, stepped to the plate and saved our asses from death.

I am already the most vociferous booster of the Keep Freakin' Santa Out Of Our Faces Until After Thanksgiving that you'll find here in the Delaware Valley, but I love Thanksgiving. I love bringing people together. I love asking friends if they have anyone they're sharing Thanksgiving with, and inviting them along if need be. I love sharing leftovers. I love that my wife is so into the cool theatrics of putting all those recipes together at once. I love giving a little of my time, my limited budget, and our foodstuffs to organizations like MANNA, here in Philly. I'm thankful... and generally filled with the spirit of joy.

Perhaps we have room to steer some of the teaching about the holiday into broadening our understanding of Native American realities, then and now, inviting dialog and hopefully a little moral self examination as part of what we're being thankful for. They hooked us up and... we destroyed them as our 'thank you?' But to ask to turn such a beautiful time of year into a permanent downer is to be in denial of all the good the holiday is, no matter what bizarre crucible it came out of.

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Unapologetically thankful.
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Posted by: BeckyD on Nov 27, 2008 4:40 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What you're complaining about is basically the entire march of human history. One people moves into a new territory, there's conflict, and the most technologically advanced usually wins. The Romans, the Normans, unknown tribes on every continent going back to the beginning of human civilization. There's nothing unique about the American colonization experience except that now we've reached a point in our development when we can recognize that might doesn't necessarily make right.

I'm not sorry my ancestors came here, because otherwise, I would not exist. We're not perfect, and we need to acknowledge our sins, past and present, but I think this country is a good thing, I think the American experiment has overall had positive results, and I will not apologize for giving thanks to God for our many blessings.

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» RE: Unapologetically thankful. Posted by: Allstar Cookie
» RE: Unapologetically thankful. Posted by: americansheep
» RE: Unapologetically thankful. Posted by: Allstar Cookie
» RE: Unapologetically thankful. Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: Unapologetically thankful. Posted by: bornxeyed
» or unapologetically callous. Posted by: bornxeyed
» Bad history Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Bad history Posted by: bornxeyed

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Reasons to be thankful
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Posted by: Jim on Nov 27, 2008 5:20 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My family of four may earn well under $20,000 a year but a number of our crops did well and our pantry and freezers are full. We do not expect to go hungry this winter. We can even afford to have a feast. We can manage a full tithe to our church. Yes, it is important to remember those who are not so fortunate. But we can give thanks also for what we have been given.
We don't celebrate Independence Day, Memorial Day, or Veterans Day. Here's a national day we can feel good about. It is not about Pilgrims and Indians, but being thankful for what is good today. Yes, there is lots to change, but there is lots that is good also. Remember these things and gain strength for the struggle.

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» RE: do you get it? Posted by: fearn

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Gloomy? Try Living Somewhere Else for a Year
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Posted by: jbpaz on Nov 27, 2008 5:40 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One year of living in a foreign place will give you a new perspective on America.
Eor example, you might be upset because we killed 7.4 millions innocent civilians in Asia. If I wrote this in another country, they wouldn't hesitate to string me up as an outside agitator.

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How bout
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Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line on Nov 27, 2008 5:47 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A day of forgiveness AND gratitude, then..after all if you acknowledge the failings of the past, why not forgive and move things into a more positive light. If you dwell in the past there is no way you can live in the now. Forgiveness and gratitude. forgiveness and gratitude. Thanks

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» Forgiveness? Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Forgiveness? Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: Forgiveness? Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Forgiveness? Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: Forgiveness? Posted by: bornxeyed

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I refuse to apologize.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: rickiey on Nov 27, 2008 6:05 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Original sin? Seriously?

Original sin is a moronic concept when applied to religion, and even more moronic when applied to politics or society.

I refuse to apologize for actions that are not my own.

Just because someone who had the same race as me, did something wrong to someone who didn't have the same race as me, doesn't mean I owe anyone anything, including and especially an apology.

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» RE: I refuse to apologize. Posted by: jonnymil
» RE: I refuse to apologize. Posted by: rickiey
» RE: I refuse to apologize. Posted by: F-Abdolian
» I agree . . . Posted by: Scientz
» RE: I agree . . . Posted by: kahuna_2bears
» self loaving is so 1968 Posted by: theVRWCwhodatesLiberals
» Whew, I was worried! Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Whew, I was worried! Posted by: rickiey
» RE: Whew, I was worried! Posted by: bornxeyed

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Thanksgiving/ Columbus Day-All US propaganda
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Posted by: 911FalseFlag on Nov 27, 2008 6:09 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I remember on Columbus day reading an article about what Christopher Columbus actually did and how he annihilated indigenous Indians in the Caribbean islands. Now on Thanksgiving it is good to read an article about the truth regarding the founders of this country and how history is rewritten by the conquerors.

Such a large proportion of people in this country do not want to awake from the dream that America is a democracy and is helping to spread democracy. A big part of the plan of the current day conquerors of this country (Federal Reserve Bank and a Secret Government talked about by Bill Moyers) is to keep everyone in debt so they do not have the mindset or the time to be bothered dealing with anything but the "party line" of this corrupt government.

Woodrow Wilson sold out this country to the European central bankers in order to be elected president. After leaving office, he said that he did the worst thing possible for his country by allowing the Federal Reserve Bank to be created in 1913.

However, the Federal Reserve Bank needed its own army to deal with situations that were better handled by force rather than the printing of money and lending it to the government. So, the CIA was created in the late 1940s.

Certain elements of the CIA have since then done the bidding of Federal Reserve Bank in overthrowing governments not willing to allow the United States to steal their resources. Since then, the CIA has joined forces with the World Bank and the IMF to create a new world domination force that has been referred to as the "Economic Hitmen".

Go to my website www.911insidejob.net and use the Google search function to find the articles and videos you are interested in reading and watching.

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What a message
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Posted by: 2thepoint on Nov 27, 2008 6:12 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We see articles posted such as this and then wonder why progressives are seen as a negative bunch.

How about we give thanks for being able to help all those around the world we do through aid, education etc..etc..

Let me insult you all.. Happy Thanksgiving

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» RE: What BS Posted by: fearn
» RE: What BS Posted by: Scientz
» RE: What BS Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: What a message Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: What a message Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: What a message Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: What a message Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: What a message Posted by: bornxeyed

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Progressive Responses to Indigenous Genocide
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Posted by: Naomi on Nov 27, 2008 6:12 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would like to challenge progressives to finally stand up and really fight against the genocide of Indigenous peoples, the respect for their sovereign rights and treaty agreements, and put the same amount of resources and solidarity into Indigenous causes as are put into other "progressive" efforts including the election of Obama.

The sad fact of the matter is, overcoming the institutionalized and ingrained racism against Indigenous peoples - including the over-romanticism and consumption of their culture and beliefs - has been beyond most non-natives to this point in history. It is reflected in the things I see and hear about every day.

Take for example this discussion about Thanksgiving. There are plenty of excuses in the comments why some still practice the usual form of thanksgiving. Some have tried to justify it as some form of a teaching tool.

Being in solidarity with Indigenous peoples means looking at their example - at what many native people do for this day - and that is to declare a day of mourning and a fast.

If you really want to prove how non-racist you are - then how about following THEIR example. If you really want to offer a teachable moment to your family and friends, tell them you aren't having a big feast on THIS PARTICULAR DAY because you want to honor the native people of the Americas in their, and their Ancestors, continuing struggle to resist genocide. That's setting an example. Move your get-together to another day if its THAT important to you. Lead by example.

As for the people who use the worn out excuses about "winner take all..." and "march of history..." - all I can say is your Ancestors still survive, and they weep for your ignorance because not only do you forget the native people of the Americas - but you forget your own Indigenous heritage and the traditional knowledge your people once knew that would teach you how to act with respect for all living things.

My prayers,
Aniomez

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» Here, here Posted by: chlamor
» RE: Here, here Posted by: sirios

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Thanks - for what?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: justAnEgg on Nov 27, 2008 6:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It took me awhile to get familiar with the US so now, after eleven years of cultural adjustment, when asked for my opinion about the US, my answer would be: "If this is the future of humankind, we should be exterminated by DDT, now."

Selfishness, alienation, deterioration of mental health on a massive scale, hubris, fake feelings and fake relations, bigotry, corruption, fascist mentality of herd as an ultimate expression of social pathology ("you're with us or against us"), etc., etc. - they all exist in other nations of the world but in a much less extent. In the US of A, it became the very fabric of the society.

I only hope it's my Mid West perspective, but I have my doubts.

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» RE: Thanks - for what? Posted by: bornxeyed

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GRATITUDE IS THE PATH TO ENLIGHTMENT
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Posted by: drricklippin on Nov 27, 2008 6:49 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree we must not forget the past but

GRATITUDE IS THE PATH TO ENLIGHTMENT

So Happy Thanksgiving to All

Dr.Rick Lippin
Southmpton,Pa

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» serios provides wisdom Posted by: drricklippin

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It is a TRIBAL THING
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Posted by: sirwilliam on Nov 27, 2008 6:52 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems that one tribe has been killing off other tribes since day one. Perhaps it is time to really think about that. NO ONE seems to write about this part of man's existance; too easy to throw a label around about the other tribe than the one we live in. As we speak a tribe in India is attacking another. The Sunni's have been fighting with the Shites for over a thousand years. Joshua from the Bible slew all the residents ( men women and children) of Jericho...at the behest of God.
American Indian tribes fought and slaughtered one another. Equador has been fighting Peru for many many years. Etc, etc, etc, etc, all through time. And economic tribes are afoot also....so whatever form it takes; it is a tribe. So my question to all. What tribe are you in? And whom is your tribe fighting against?

This type of slaughter is in everyone's bloodlines.

So what can be done about it so it changes?

I can only imagine what the future holds as populations increase; energy supplies dwindle, and food shortages prevail.

Are we all ONE; or are we one within our tribe?

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» RE: It is a TRIBAL THING Posted by: donl51
» RE: More BS.. Posted by: fearn
» You're 100% wrong. Posted by: Scientz
» RE: More BS.. Posted by: Joni50
» RE: It is a TRIBAL THING Posted by: bornxeyed

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IN ORDER TO SAVE THE WORLD......
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Posted by: drricklippin on Nov 27, 2008 6:52 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... first we must savor it!

Grow up whiners!

Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton,Pa

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» RE: IN ORDER TO SAVE THE WORLD...... Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: IN ORDER TO SAVE THE WORLD...... Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: IN ORDER TO SAVE THE WORLD...... Posted by: ConnecttheDots

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I Agree We Need to Acknowledge Our "Country"
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Posted by: barringer75 on Nov 27, 2008 6:50 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Through all of the talk and beating of our collective chests we fail to acknowledge what really happened and what is happening here in this so called beacon of democracy and freedom. I know we can't go back and undo what has happened, but I fully agree with the author of this article. The reason why we keep the fantasy going is because our actions and mindset perpetuate it. It's so much easier to keep it going or to say that it's a great day and I look at the day from a personal level. But we are all responsible for the actions of this government because we are the government. Yes the elites have manipulated our history to keep things going for a time, perhaps we will figure out how to inflate another bubble, or Obama will pull a rabbit out of an economic hat, I doubt it. We will hang on to this vision of "America" as long as we can until just like during the last Depression people started to realize that there were many things wrong with the way the elites were running this country. Obama is part of this group because he is a front man and he cannot do anything that would go against the status quo. This global system is collapsing and a new serfdom has arrived on these shores for virtually the entire population of the "richest country in the world." The majority of the world never left serfdom, this populace had a glimmer of freedom for the common man and it is fading fast. The story line connects and the lies continue. For me all I need to do is take a look at my own very large family by United States standards (13 siblings, 22 grands and 22 great grands) to understand how history and not knowing history can destroy or build the future. Those of us who know the true history are working to shape the future based on the sound heritage our parents left for us. Those of us who want to manipulate the present and the future either negate the history, lie or create a new one.

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The folly of 'white greed'!!!!Mt. Rushmore = Monument to Genocidal Maniacs
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Posted by: jeffrey7 on Nov 27, 2008 6:53 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Both the Puritans and the Pilgrims had themselves a good old fashioned 'killing party' to get the land,the food stores and cement themselves as Lord and master of a land that was never their's to begin with. In their lust for riches all bets were off concerning the 'locals'. Ithe last 400 years hence...little has changed.

Greed has pushed us into Iraq. It pushed us into Vietnam and it will push us into some other distant land for their resources. Guess
we never learned.

Thanksgiving, real thanksgiving is more than just a good reason to sit down with friends and family a stuff yourself silly. This is the time when The People after gathering stores for the winter,came together and expressed Thanks to everything. Thanks for the land,the sky, the animals,the birds,the fishes, the creepy crawlers and those that slither. You give thanks for the Energy that sustains all living things. You give thanks for the Earth as a whole,for the stars in the sky, and the extended family that is all around you. You express thanks for all that are your family, Elders,Youngers,Children,Babies,those who came before and those yet to come.

White settlers brought Bullets,Booze and Bibles to destabilize this nation. We do it yet today because we've not dispached the very thing that causes folks to devalue all life...
simple human GREED.

Mt. Rushmore stands as a great testiment to such greed. It also stands for Theft,Lies, and
Genocide. Not one of those faces ever dealt straight with the Native Americans nor the people the ruled. Much like today.

If you don't like hearing about how we really got thias hoilday..then you probably have bloodties to the Pilgrims or the Puritans,
or much worse...you're a racist.

History is repeating itself because of that kind of thinking.The mindset that says 'Forget about the past. It's too long ago to count." If we don't remember tha trail that brought us to where we are today,then we will never find a way to a better future.

Yes bring you families together in this time of Mid-Fall. Be happy for all around you, both the human and non-human living things because both are important parts of the whole of life.
Then teach the truth...The truth that sometimes humans make terrible things happen to get what they want and that unchecked greed is the reason why. Teach that all people,regardless of color or social standing are related to eachother just by being human and that we should never again make use of force the way we deal with eachother and the Earth as a whole.

You can forgive but you should never forget.
It is in the forgetting that we give ourselves
the same myopic thought that recreates the old massacre of by gone days in present reality.

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we are still here... the old days are gone but we survive...
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Posted by: ellie on Nov 27, 2008 7:05 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
thanks to all who voiced their opinions this morning... both sides can learn... we are still learning to live among you even if you don't realize we live among you too...

to our family, thanksgiving is commonly called 'there goes the neighborhood day'... but in fact, to us, it's a memorial feed to honor and thank all our relatives who have come before us and suffered... we honor them for their strength, wisdom, determination and deaths that we are even here today... we also pray that the next 7 generations remember the past fully and look forward to their futures as Indian people...

metakue oyasin...

ellie = enrolled member of Rosebud Sioux Tribe of South Dakota, hubby = enrolled member of Northern Florida - Southern Alabama Band of the Creek Nation, our kids, grandkids, friends, enemies and outlaws...

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Celebrating Genocide!
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Posted by: CyberBrook on Nov 27, 2008 7:55 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here's my take on it:

Celebrating Genocide!

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» RE: Celebrating Genocide! Posted by: lenioui

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Be thankful for longer whips...
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Nov 27, 2008 8:11 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...otherwise you wouldn't get very far down the back while self-flagellating.

People who haven't murdered anyone don't owe the author any recognition or support of his personal adventures in hysterical, self-imposed guilt.

Or rather, one could lay the blame on A. africanus, who had the tyrannical impulse to evolve for the purpose of eventually giving art to your impulse to grieve over your imagined guilt.

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» Yes, exactly...THAT hysteria of YOURS Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Here, here ABF! Posted by: Scientz

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Dockside
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Posted by: rtmyth on Nov 27, 2008 8:16 AM   
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I give thanks, or blame, to Shai every day. But Jensen's remarks cause me to think about our innate kindness as well the evil passions cloaked by religion.

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Vini Vidi Vici
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Posted by: kad on Nov 27, 2008 8:28 AM   
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To imply that the current inhabitants of the U.S. are any different than the inhabitants of most of the other settled countries of the world is to take a very short sighted view of history. Take a look at Europe, The Middle East, The Caucus', Asia Minor, India, South America, and tell me how many countries are still populated by the aboriginal groups. Not too mention that there is growing body of evidence that the "Native" Americans were actually guilty of genocide themselves, driving out an aboriginal population to take over.

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» RE: Ahhhhhhh, Posted by: fearn

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chuck reinhardt
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Posted by: chuckyeo on Nov 27, 2008 8:38 AM   
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the only part of thanksgiving to celebrate is family, as abe lincoln intended. we must make aware in our schools how we treated the native americans. just like columbus, he invaded america and the natives who lived here, not dicover them.

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ALL KATIE COURIC ON YA
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Posted by: caru on Nov 27, 2008 9:03 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ah, thanks.

now i remember when i made the shift. when i saw satellite footage of katie couric dissing the indians and those who would question thanksgiving.

i prefer indigenous peoples days. we all can give thanks that we are born of earth. maybe the indigenous people can show us the way home.

in the gold country of california, 99.9% of the maidu were slaughtered as savages. earth speaks of this sudden disapearence of a people who loved earth. those would not harvest gold as they saw it as the eyes of the earth. their very language is earth.

survivors of this time can show us the way home.


earth, all indigenous.

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Mr. Appreciates What He Got
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Posted by: jwc1480 on Nov 27, 2008 9:07 AM   
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Don't forget the present when you give thanks for the health you have, the food on the table, the roof over your head, the closeness of your family. Sound too simple, not political enough for you? Perhaps then you are greedy, and all the world is not enough.

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» RE: Mr. Appreciates What He Got Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line

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Please post this again next year!!!!!!
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Posted by: nfamous on Nov 27, 2008 9:11 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Americans need to read this article every year until they get it through their thick heads that just because you have the ability to kill people and take their resources you don't have to do that. This overaggression of white people needs to be studied so we can figure out how to counter it. Other races are sometimes overaggressive but it seems to be the defining feature of whites when they are in power. When you combine this proclivity for violence with technology the elite have the ability to destroy the entire planet and plan on doing it as long as they have an escape plan.

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That would be change we could beilieve in.
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Posted by: popparook on Nov 27, 2008 9:19 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Where today are the Pequot? Where are the Narragansett, the Mohican, the Pokanoket, and many other once powerful tribes of our people? They have vanished before the avarice and the oppression of the White Man, as snow before a summer sun."
-Tecumseh Shawnee
http://noyoulistentome.blogspot.com/

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» RE: We need to remember.. Posted by: fearn
» RE: We need to remember.. Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» Utter nonsense Posted by: brunowe
» Your history is way off Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Your history is way off Posted by: Scientz
» Veni, Vidi, Vici ... Posted by: stellabloo

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Celebrating the unspeakable
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Posted by: chlamor on Nov 27, 2008 9:52 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
White America embraced Thanksgiving because a majority of that population glories in the fruits, if not the unpleasant details, of genocide and slavery and feels, on the whole, good about their heritage: a cornucopia of privilege and national power. Children are taught to identify with the good fortune of the Pilgrims. It does not much matter that the Native American and African holocausts that flowed from the feast at Plymouth are hidden from the children’s version of the story – kids learn soon enough that Indians were made scarce and Africans became enslaved. But they will also never forget the core message of the holiday: that the Pilgrims were good people, who could not have purposely set such evil in motion. Just as the first Thanksgivings marked the consolidation of the English toehold in what became the United States, the core ideological content of the holiday serves to validate all that has since occurred on these shores – a national consecration of the unspeakable, a balm and benediction for the victors, a blessing of the fruits of murder and kidnapping, and an implicit obligation to continue the seamless historical project in the present day.

The Thanksgiving story is an absolution of the Pilgrims, whose brutal quest for absolute power in the New World is made to seem both religiously motivated and eminently human. Most importantly, the Pilgrims are depicted as victims – of harsh weather and their own naïve yet wholesome visions of a new beginning. In light of this carefully nurtured fable, whatever happened to the Indians, from Plymouth to California and beyond, in the aftermath of the 1621 dinner must be considered a mistake, the result of misunderstandings – at worst, a series of lamentable tragedies. The story provides the essential first frame of the American saga. It is unalloyed racist propaganda, a tale that endures because it served the purposes of a succession of the Pilgrims’ political heirs, in much the same way that Nazi-enhanced mythology of a glorious Aryan/German past advanced another murderous, expansionist mission.

Thanksgiving encourages these cognitive cripples in their madness, just as it is designed to do.

Thanksgiving is quite dangerous – as were the Pilgrims.

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Get Over It and Evolve
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Posted by: Raven Laughing on Nov 27, 2008 10:00 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems to me I see this same kind of diatribe every year at thanksgiving. My question I guess is why is it that the revolution to give America back to the Native Americans only happens during this time. Humans have been misbehaving badly against humans since we first crawled out of the trees and started using tools. If we truly wanted to atone it seems we must go back to before any human was mistreated by any government or organization of people. Does this mean we should all move back to the African Savannah where all of our most ancient ancestors started this journey.
The same folks who do the same kind of whining in this article are the ones who are doing nothing to really promote equality of treatment in the human population. They write a bunch of whiny books extolling how we must change this or that because our ancestors were not politically correct.
I am willing to bet that most people who contribute or read AlterNet lean towards the theories of evolution, yet they cannot accept the evolution of the humanzee, which has mostly been tough, bloody, and violent.
It is time to get over the past and evolve, hopefully in a more enlightened way than our ancestors.

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Proof Positive
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Posted by: kk33deg on Nov 27, 2008 10:07 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From Tim Wise's excellent article that AlterNet posted just yesterday:

"The humorlessness of the far left -- to which I remain connected ideologically if not organizationally -- has always struck me as one of its greatest weaknesses. People like to laugh, they like to smile, they like to be joyful, and an awful lot of hardened leftists seem almost utterly incapable of doing any of these things. It's as if they have all taken a pledge that there should be no laughter until the revolution, or some such shit. No positivity, no hope, no happiness so long as people are still poor and exploited and being murdered by cops, and victimized by United States militarism, or performing as wage slaves for global capital, or eating meat, or driving cars. And they wonder why the left is so weak?"

The replacement of Thanksgiving Day and its self-indulgent family feasting with a National Day of Atonement accompanied by a self-reflective collective fasting is a program that all sorts of people are going to get behind. Good luck building THAT coalition.


Happy holidays to all,
Austin from Houston

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» PROGRESSIVES AND PLEASURE Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: Proof Positive Posted by: bornxeyed

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The Church/State has a long tradition of co-opting pagan holidays.
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Posted by: stellabloo on Nov 27, 2008 10:08 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Christmas. Easter. Halloween. Thanksgiving. All currently tied to a celebration of excess and successful maintenance of the status quo.

Wishful thinking of course, but as an unrepentant pagan I would like to see all these holidays taken back and celebrated as they were hundreds and thousands of years ago (minus the human sacrifices, of course): The Return of the the Light, the Birth of Spring, the Observance of Death and of course, the traditional Harvest Thanksgiving, which originally had nothing to do with Puritans (ugh) and more to do with giving thanks for a successful harvest. Midsummer's Eve used to be celebrated, too, usually with an all-night party ;.)

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United States Citizen
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Posted by: throck on Nov 27, 2008 10:49 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We won. I'm thankful. Because of the "sins" of our founding fathers, you are allowed to write this drivel. I am going to enjoy a delicious purpose-bred turkey for dinner. Rave on!!!

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» RE: United States Citizen Posted by: lenioui

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So now who is distorting history?
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Posted by: Sojourner on Nov 27, 2008 12:04 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, we need a day of atonement for genocide. Until then, I’d settle for the US signing the UN Convention without qualification. “At ratification, ‘reservations’ and ‘declarations’ included by the U.S. would allow U.S. policy makers to decide when and whether the Convention can be applied to the U.S.” (http://www.serendipity.li/cda/goc1.html)

Is our annual Thanksgiving Holiday time then for sackcloth and ashes? Depends on whose history you read.

Lincoln’s proclamation called for celebrating the original fall feast of 1621. The Pequot War happened in 1637, when the European settlers were joined by the Narragansett in a terrible conflict against the Pequot.

Jensen gives us (year after year) “Some aspects of the conventional story are true enough. But…” Sorry. That ain’t history. It’s rhetoric.

Recently AlterNet identified such patterns as “the barbiturate left.” I guess we all have our crosses to bear, as the saying goes.

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America was built on and credited with G-E-N-O-C-I-D-E !
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Posted by: maxpayne on Nov 27, 2008 12:39 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is no surprise that America loves guns and violence and wars as our society's education and culture is FUDGED ! And let's be honest, "liberal" or "conservative" or whatever, the electorate is filled with IGNORANT MACHO-EGOTISTICAL SELF-CONFIDENT YANKEES who think no ends of themselves but believe that going to resource wars will somehow keep them "safe".

Dr. Jenson, let

GOD CONTINUE TO SEVERELY PUNISH AMERICA TO ETERNAL DAMNATION !!

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» WE ARE JUST A YOUNG NATION Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: WE ARE JUST A YOUNG NATION Posted by: bornxeyed

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America
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Posted by: Von on Nov 27, 2008 3:33 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
so wrapped up in 'rights' and so little in fundamental responsibilities ...

what an unorganized cluster-fuck of a culture that daily tries to market it sense of self worth & greatness.........as it IS the biggest debtor nation, the largest array of technology that can kill the most human beings AND destroy the World over.

Genetically modified foods..all FDA approved of course. GOBBLE GOBBLE

Pharmacuetical prescriptions drugs being doled out by doctors that CAN and HAVE killed our citizens. A health care / insurance system that is in shambles. A justice system that is 'laughable'. A money making system that is controled by a cartel. Huge US corporations in need of welfare. People, including children living in the streets.........


Yes, many of this takes place in some other countries but to brush it under the rug to the extent that America does and STILL claim greatness shows nothing will change.

America is in bail out mode after a couple hundred years. Not something to be proud of

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Thanksgiving is a good thing
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Posted by: kimidol on Nov 27, 2008 3:57 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is a day to give thanks, no matter who you are for what you have and all the dark minded rationalization in the world is a waste of such a good way to spend a day.

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but...
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Posted by: COhippie on Nov 27, 2008 4:08 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For crying out loud let us have Thanksgiving in peace.

Atone for the wrongdoings on another day.

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» RE: but... Posted by: pelican beak
» RE: but... Posted by: COhippie
» RE: but... Posted by: pelican beak

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Every Day is Thanksgiving / Day of Mourning
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Posted by: Joni50 on Nov 27, 2008 4:17 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Any day is a good day to give thanks. And any day is a good day to reflect on the crimes of the past and present, educate oneself and others, make amends, and pray for the dead.

However, from what I've seen, many Native Americans (except for Bellcourt's bunch and the Mayflower Coalition) celebrate the fourth Thursday of November pretty much the same way as everyone else - with feasting and family get togethers. From what I've seen, the second Monday of October is more likely to be observed as a Day of Mourning.

I just came back from a Thanksgiving dinner celebrated at a local church. This town has a sizable minority of Native Americans; there is a large res about 100 miles to the south. There were Native American families present at the dinner. They did not fast or make a show of mourning or protesting; they ate and socialized like everyone else.

On the other hand, I've seen and participated in many protests, memorials, and other solemn observances for the second Monday in October aka "Columbus Day" aka "Indigenous Peoples' Day." I even helped organize a few. There was a Drum, prayers for the Dead, education about past and present oppression, and some people were fasting.

At the Thanksgiving dinner at church that I just came back from, I stationed myself in the kitchen during the preparations, doing my usual jobs: cleaning up small messes before they became big messes, wrapping carcass bones and putting them in the refrigerator for safe use later, and praying for the Dead.

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What self-hate?
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Posted by: landsend on Nov 27, 2008 6:21 PM   
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There is no "self-hate" in recognizing historical truth. If you have to lie to yourself in order to get through the day, you need help.

This country, like all others in the Western Hemisphere to one degree or another, was conceived in genocide and nurtured in slavery.

It was also conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal -- sort of. The effort to make that promise a reality has constantly been denounced as subversive. The fights for equal rights, rights for labor, and democracy have all been led by people who were considered subversives at the time and who have been imprisoned, beaten and killed for their efforts -- frequently by the government itself (Haymarket), or by rightwing thugs (Ku Klux Klan, Pinkertons, etc.) while the government's agencies of repression (FBI especially) pretended to look the other way.

What is obscene about this is that imperialist elements have then used the human rights victories -- won by these subversives and which the imperialists themselves fought against -- as justification for further imperialist conquest. That is why we need some historical truth. Lying about the supposedly glorious history of Thanksgiving, or averting one's eyes from the truth -- that's real self-hate.

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"Give thanks that you're not Nicaraguan"
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Posted by: landsend on Nov 27, 2008 7:45 PM   
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Abigal Van Buren, in her widely published "Dear Abby" advice column, wrote on Thanksgiving Day in both 1987 and 1988 that even if you are homeless and living in a box, you have something to be thankful for: be thankful that you don't live in Nicaragua.

The suggestion that maybe God was blessing Americans and damning Nicaraguans is typical of a great deal of the "let's be thankful for what we have" propaganda around Thanksgiving.

Nicaragua was then the victim of the Reagan administration's war of aggression to overthrow the country's democratically elected government -- for which the World Court unanimously (even the American justice) had just condemned the United States government. The U.S. government pretended to ignore the decision.

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"Give thanks that you're not Nicaraguan"
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Posted by: landsend on Nov 27, 2008 7:49 PM   
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Abigal Van Buren, in her widely published "Dear Abby" advice column, wrote on Thanksgiving Day in both 1987 and 1988 that even if you are homeless and living in a box, you have something to be thankful for: be thankful that you don't live in Nicaragua or Ethiopia.

The suggestion that maybe God was blessing Americans and damning Nicaraguans and Ethiopians is typical of a great deal of the "let's be thankful for what we have" propaganda around Thanksgiving.

Nicaragua was then the victim of the Reagan administration's war of aggression to overthrow the country's democratically elected government -- for which the World Court unanimously (even the American justice) had just condemned the United States government. The U.S. government pretended to ignore the decision.

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stop celebrating the rescue of english pirate bastards called pilgrims-my foot pilgrims!!!
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Posted by: avatar_singh on Nov 27, 2008 8:10 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
November 27, 2008
Justice for Indian Country
Thanksgiving We Can Believe In

By STEVE HENDRICKS

Seven years before Tisquantum (Squanto, to most of us) helped the Pilgrims recover from their disastrous first winter in America, he was kidnapped by an English cod fisher and fur trader who was diversifying into the human trade. Tisquantum and other stock were shipped to Spain under hatch, a murderous passage, and most of the survivors were sold into slavery. Tisquantum was among the lucky, rescued by friars before he could be auctioned, though perhaps held a few years to ensure his salvation by Christ. We do not know how Tisquantum made his way to London and finagled a job as guide and interpreter on a ship bound for New England. But in 1619, four years after his abduction, he returned to America only to find his town of Patuxet in ruins and nearly all its 2,000 Wampanoags dead of European pox. When the Pilgrims arrived the following winter, they founded Plymouth on Patuxet's remains--a cruel symbol, that.

We do not hear much of this history on Thanksgiving. We hear instead that in the spring of 1621 Tisquantum taught the Pilgrims to grown corn and catch eel. We hear that come autumn, gratitude suffused the harvest feast, that beautiful gathering of men who had seen Shakespeare in his lifetime and men ignorant of paper but living lives of plenty. These things are indeed true, but a fuller truth is that Tisquantum helped the Pilgrims as much from fear as from charity and that alongside the goodwill at the first Thanksgiving were mutual mistrust and just-restrained hostility. The mistrust, on the Wampanoags' side at least, was well founded, as their destruction by colonial America soon proved..""
from http://www.counterpunch.org/hendricks11272008.html

=============

. The civil war in america was not only supported with money and arms by england but rather england was the instigator of american civil war in order to keep whole of america enslaved and if not possible at least those parts (South) where it could call upon filial loyalty. It was truly a war of race-not against whites and blacks but against anglo saxons versus blacks, Irish, other European peoples .The same would be repeated in future. The confederacy was a traitor to america-a british agents; but ironically that same confederacy flag today is being propagandised by their descendents as symbol of american independence and patriotism. Having lost the proxy war england resorted to the one thing it specialises-terrorism and misinformation. Abraham Lincoln was murdered by the person very sympathetic to british cause. (against Napoleon england had sent several terrorist squads-that is why Napoleon had to declare Himself an Emperor to maintain the clear line of succession to protect glorious French Revolution). It is very interesting that most of the american presidents assassinated were those whom England did not want being elected. By the end of civil war ,instead of disinfranchasising the british supporters (of southern states) and taking away their land or at least redistributing evenly the stolen land, the american govt. was persuaded by britain to spare them and let those southern traitors keep all the stolen land so that drug (tobacco) and cotton would be of assured supply to england. Of course by that time because of fall of Napoleon (brought about not by military might but by conspiracy to embroil the Europeans among each other( conspiracy hatched in London-that was the only english contribution to napoleons' fall-forget waterloo where Austrians and Prussians had contributed most militarily):consequently england got free reign to exploit the rest of the world and amassed wealth. With that new loot the english shopkeepers started not only factory but also bought titles (Always a purchasable item in england) and started giving themselves high sounding titles and names.

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What about the current genocide in Gaza?
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Posted by: Reader11722 on Nov 27, 2008 9:13 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is so easy to keep attacking the white man (when in reality, all of you minorities owe the white man for civility). How about attacking zioni$t rulers of today conducting a genocide on Gaza as you read this? Will Obama help the victims? No, because Mossad already owns Obama (he picked Rahm Emanuel, the son of a terrorist as Chief of Staff). Obama will probably let Mossad slide on their 9/11 involvement and Obama will allow them to continue their genocide on Palestinians. So maybe we can lay off the white man for poor conduct a hundred or so years ago and write an article about current genocides conducted by the Chosen People.

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Indigenous Survival Day
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Posted by: JakobFabian01 on Nov 27, 2008 10:24 PM   
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How do we interest white US-Americans in those aspects of their history that ought to make them feel ashamed?

I don't know. But an open invitation to shame is not likely to work. Nor is replacing a joyful and potentially universally appealing holiday, as Thanksgiving is or ought to be, with a day of national mourning.

It is celebration, not mourning, that people find attractive. And what better to celebrate than the survival of the indigenous peoples of this continent?

Survival was, after all, the real cause for celebration at the legendary original Thanksgiving feast. But all of us, regardless of our heritage, are survivors. Survival, like gratitude, is something that you can celebrate without excluding others. It can and should be shared.

It may be objected that Thanksgiving, with all its mythical white supremacist baggage, is much too "white" to be acceptable by surviving indigenous peoples. This is a worthy objection. I can only suggest, for their approval:

Let there be an Indigenous Survival Day (set to occur on the day after what once was called "Columbus Day"). Let this Indigenous Survival Day be a joyful celebration, something like the Juneteenth Day that African-Americans celebrate and that even progressive whites are beginning to appreciate, even though it isn't really "their" holiday. Juneteenth also serves as a historical reminder of something I'm sure white folk don't want to remember: That the emancipation of slaves did not take place on the day the Emancipation Proclamation was signed, but some time later, since whites generally didn't bother to tell the slaves themselves.

Maybe an Indigenous Survival Day could serve a similar function.

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So on the Friday after Thanksgiving...
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Posted by: Blink on Nov 28, 2008 7:35 AM   
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we can eat leftover turkey and dressing in peace? It's only on the fourth Thursday of each November that we must be racked with guilt?

People of all races and ethnicities have suffered throughout humankind's history. All that matters is where we are NOW. And Thanksgiving is one day in which no present is required, only a nice meal for which to be thankful and share with others. If other people want to feel guilty about what some people long since dead did to other people long since dead, that's their business. I for one will continue to see myself as an individual who had no responsibility whatsoever for any of the so-called wrongs of the past and will enjoy my Thanksgiving Day as an opportunity to be grateful for what I have been blessed with and what I have earned as a result of my hard work and the somewhat free country in which we live.

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atone for what?
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Nov 28, 2008 10:21 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
atone for what? my great grandparents emigrated in the early 1900s from poland and russia. if they hadn't, my grandparents would all have been gassed or shot by hitler and his ilk.

wonder if the author of this article, mr. jenson, fasts to atone!?!? hey, i hung out with 15 vegan friends and we made a huge vegan feast and thanked mama earth for all her bounty. truth is, if we don't start taking better care of our "mama," we'll all be fasting involuntarily during our lifetimes...be grateful every day you have a hot shower, a place to poo, glasses of water and food. might not last...
oh, and i hope the person who decided to publish this article yesterday fasted to atone for his 400 year old sins.

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» RE: p.s. better to atone Posted by: jonnymil

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stupid
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Posted by: jstepp590 on Nov 28, 2008 10:35 AM   
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We wiped out the indians?!? Hello! How do you expect that a few hundred people on wooden boats with blunderbusses wiped out 20-50 million indians?

Go back to school. Study the diseases environment as it affected the virgin field population found here. Smallpox alone wiped out over 90% of europeans every time it rolled through, and they had many generations to develop at least a minimum resistance to it.

The thought that we could have "wiped out" the indians was a sop to the eurocentric ego as a declaration of our superiority, not anything based in fact.

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» Riiiiiiiiiiight.... Posted by: bornxeyed

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The Haudenosaunee (Six Nations/Iroquois) Thanksgiving Address
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Posted by: aquariansun on Nov 28, 2008 3:09 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.peace4turtleisland.org/pages/Thanks.htm

I grew up in Onondaga County, Upstate New York- original Haudenosaunee (Six Nation/Iroquois) territory. At the Oneida nation museum, they sell a copy of their nation's original thanksgiving address, in English & Iroquois languages. I agree with the author that we should be ashamed of the atrocities committed to the First Nation peoples long ago and continually. However, I do not let that prevent me from openly appreciating all the special phenomena that are symbolized around this time of year, the harvest, etc. and that is why I've turned to the Haudenosaunee's words in the last 5 Tday celebrations I've attended. Check them out at the link above. Maybe by pairing the rejection of overt commercialism with embracing timeless cultural instincts, we could really make these holidays worth celebrating.

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The Iroquois Thanksgiving Address
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Posted by: Joni50 on Nov 28, 2008 7:32 PM   
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earlier on this thread, someone asked what do Indians, um, excuse me, Native AMericans, have to be thankful for. And my brother and I (we both have some Native heritage though not well-documented enough to be enrolled in a tribe, and we both know many other Native Americans as well) answered to the effect that Native Americans have the same things to be thankful for as anyone else. Someone else posted this link:

http://www.peace4turtleisland.org/pages/Thanks.htm

About all I can add, is to put the link in a form that one can easily click on...

thanksgiving

We Are All Connected

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Remove "Viking" add "USA"
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Posted by: jwgrant on Nov 29, 2008 12:14 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Remove "Viking" and add "USA."

The Vikings could be bad, but the Vikings were rank amateurs when compared to the devastation and slaughter the USA has been responsible for since our independence and nationhood. History should teach us that we must first end the rape and murder going on today.

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Idiotic article, dimwitted premise, stupid comments.
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Posted by: BillWhedon on Nov 29, 2008 9:46 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Tell ya what .. you want to breast-beat for the Noble Savages, go right ahead. Not I, nor my folks, nor my grandparents ever killed, raped, or enslaved anyone. Sure, we all feel real bad that you were killed, raped, and enslaved, but since we didn't do it, nor were you materially affected (other than stupid self-pity), we owe you NOTHING.

You owe yourselves the self-respect required to pull your head out of your ass and get a job and make reparations for crying and bemoaning and wanting everyone to feel Real Sorry for you and give you money because Great Uncle RedFeather got killed by some distant relative of the guy down the block, and thinking about it made you a wino.

Grow up. Get real. We owe you Jack Shit.
Bill Whedon

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Turkey day not commemorating genocide
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Posted by: RealEducator on Dec 1, 2008 5:27 PM   
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I don't agree with the suggestion that Thanksgiving celebrates genocide of native Americans. Evidence suggests a reason to celebrate thanksgiving as thanks for what we have, bountiful foods, friends and family, etc. The original colonists were suffering tremendously. the native peoples gave the colonists food and shelter. We should recognize the actions of the native peoples on this holiday.

Yes millions of natives died, The first to die did so from diseases brought by the colonists. accidently.

Thanksgiving day has no relation to the natives that were killed thereafter by war, raids, or manifest destiny.

Lets use our sensibilities, our humanness, and a bit of occam's razor, to distinguish right from wrong, good from evil, truth from fictions. Thanksgiving celebrates a truly human deed, the fact the natives helped some poor, diseased, famished, helpless colonists, and distinguish this from attrocities later committed.

The USA has committed many attrocities, as a nation, as people within the nation, but we must distinguish and recognze what has happened if we are to change for a better future. There are good qualities, traditions about this country, and I think Thanksgiving comes from one of the best origins, the people that lived here first, the Native Americans.

Thanks

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Crafting a new structure for Thanksgiving has merit
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Posted by: dgleason on Dec 4, 2008 9:48 AM   
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Thanksgiving is the traditional harvest celebration which has roots in many things. The U.S.'s inclination for rhetoric that would not make it in a fairy story because it is so divorced from reality that it looses all possibility of meaning.

This year we had our meal on Saturday (which really makes more sense if you are actually the person cooking all that blessed food). A movement of this sort could in fact leave a little more room for reflection on human history and less of a white wash of genocide.

To me the history of thanksgiving is a profound lesson. There is so much that is not generally known, including that the diseases brought (unknowingly) by the first waves of conquerors (christopher columbus holiday is the one I find most suspect) had already decimated populations on the continent and made the local populations more amenable to incoming individuals.

The profoundity was in the waste of the initial goodwill and how readily human beings are converted from cooperators to persecutors.

We need to learn this about ourselves, and if we claim a mythology about our country we need to be a little more comprehensive about the extent of it.

The american psyche is becoming weak, where we can only be proud of something or someone if we bury the bad and exagerate the good.

This is not an adult approach, it is adolescent, as is the insistance that the correllary is true, that we might not act as dispicably as those in history given the same situations. We seem very inclined to think that we would behave better than we have a right to believe we would based on the facts of history.

Many very good people woke up every morning satisfied that all was right with the world when our freedom loving country was supporting slavery and all their women were disenfranchised.

The thing that is most dishonest is our surity that given the same history as our ancestors we would have behaved better. It is an important thing to remember.

Danielle

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Alternet Comments:

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Get a new article.
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Posted by: RoffleTheWaffle on Nov 27, 2008 12:15 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Seriously, is it some kind of Alternet tradition to post this same whiny, self-important diatribe every year? At least let someone else bitch and moan about the holiday for a change, jeez.

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I'm appreciating this article
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Posted by: oceansong on Nov 27, 2008 1:34 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The writer of this article says that many people ask:
"Why do you insist on dwelling on the past?"
I think the answer is - because the so-called past isn't the past.

The exploitation of Native Americans is still continuing to this day. Our government continues to rip off the funds that it is supposedly managing for Native tribes; our government continues to withhold medical and social services that are due to various tribes; our government continues to deny the rights of various tribes to exist; our government continues to break treaties and take Native lands when mineral resources are found on Native land, etc, etc.

And we, as individuals, continue to ignore and minimize the racism directed at Native people. Our collective awareness has slowly awakened to racism directed at African Americans - especially since we now have elected our first black President.

But our individual and collective awareness remains blind to the continuing abuses towards Native peoples.
If we truly regret the genocide & the exploitation of the past, then we have a responsibility to stop the exploitation and abuses of the present.
As a friend of mine says:
Sorry only counts if you don't do it again.

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» How? Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: How? Posted by: WWMD
» RE: How? Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: How? Posted by: WWMD
» RE: How? Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: How? Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: How? Posted by: WWMD

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They didn't know they were people!
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Posted by: Javan on Nov 27, 2008 1:36 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Years ago I asked my dad who was born 1895 how they could treat people like that. I was referring to Indians and Slaves. To my amazement he said, "We didn't know they were people". Hard to believe, isn't it!

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it's hard to break new ground in human understanding (thank you, Prof Jensen)
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Posted by: Suzon on Nov 27, 2008 2:43 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Cromwell was no real improvement over Charles the First as any informed Irish person can tell you.

I would only suggest to Prof Jensen that the US is not really a former colony (or collection of former colonies). The Norman-English empire remains alive and well in the form of corporations and the use of law for criminal purposes.

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For years I have operated a thanksgiving day feed for those who have no home, but are hungry.
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Posted by: Nightstallion on Nov 27, 2008 2:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Whether people show up or not, there is food here. I do this out of my home, all I ask is that you leave your politics along with your prejudices at the door. As long as I have you will too for at least this one day.

I am not rich bring your own desert or share a dish here. I don't provide sweets. Some of us are diabetic. I don't serve beef but I have a ham and a turkey if you are willing to share bring whatever you will.

I have done this for forty years in remembrance of Pogo the Opossum. It is not for the U. S. of A. but for the homies human Martian fourleggers or nonhuman two leggers welcome just don't bite the other guests.

Check your asshole at the door and come on in.

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national educational systems extol national heritage
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Posted by: wurlybird9 on Nov 27, 2008 3:03 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What nation doesn't pat itself on the back regarding its genesis? At least WE, the INDIVIDUALS (i'm not really sure who or *what* the People are anymore) have fairly easy access to this information. Good luck digging up this kind of dirt in some true totalitarian regime. Their leaders couldn't possibly do wrong.

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Thanksgiving
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Nov 27, 2008 3:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These articles seem to assume that we take our holidays seriously in the first place. To me, it was never about much more than pigging out, boring parades, and putting in my time with annoying relatives.

Even so, this one does bring out a point which is of particular relevance these days: In their zeal to highlight the excesses of the current regime, many have resorted to idealizing not only the "Founding Fathers", but more recent periods in history when the US was supposedly a shining example and beacon of hope for the world...Furthermore, they seem under the illusion that Obama is going to bring back that which never was and never will be.

Though it may be convenient to see the last 8 years as a tragic detour, a critical understanding of the US--or any country--requires getting past all myths throughout its history. As much as some would love to see the US as a moral leader at some point in our history or future, I think it's a bad idea altogether. One of the best ways to help the world is to stop being so full of ourselves and admit we're ordinary shmucks like the rest of them.

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OK some bad things happened
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Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line on Nov 27, 2008 4:25 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They happen all the time. I personally am grateful for every little blessing. THeres a lot to be grateful for and Thanksgiving is a way to celebrate this with our friends and family. If you want to atone for the sins of otherss by all means have at it.. I am going to practice my gratitude and spread it around.

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» RE: OK some bad things happened Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: OK some bad things happened Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line

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My Favorite Holiday
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Posted by: Todd Kimmell on Nov 27, 2008 4:27 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thanksgiving, whe we bother to tell the story of it to our kids either at home or at school, is a story about when the almighty settlers of 'The New World' were about to starve to death. Some people of color, some local folks who knew how things worked and were willing to teach, stepped to the plate and saved our asses from death.

I am already the most vociferous booster of the Keep Freakin' Santa Out Of Our Faces Until After Thanksgiving that you'll find here in the Delaware Valley, but I love Thanksgiving. I love bringing people together. I love asking friends if they have anyone they're sharing Thanksgiving with, and inviting them along if need be. I love sharing leftovers. I love that my wife is so into the cool theatrics of putting all those recipes together at once. I love giving a little of my time, my limited budget, and our foodstuffs to organizations like MANNA, here in Philly. I'm thankful... and generally filled with the spirit of joy.

Perhaps we have room to steer some of the teaching about the holiday into broadening our understanding of Native American realities, then and now, inviting dialog and hopefully a little moral self examination as part of what we're being thankful for. They hooked us up and... we destroyed them as our 'thank you?' But to ask to turn such a beautiful time of year into a permanent downer is to be in denial of all the good the holiday is, no matter what bizarre crucible it came out of.

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Unapologetically thankful.
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Posted by: BeckyD on Nov 27, 2008 4:40 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What you're complaining about is basically the entire march of human history. One people moves into a new territory, there's conflict, and the most technologically advanced usually wins. The Romans, the Normans, unknown tribes on every continent going back to the beginning of human civilization. There's nothing unique about the American colonization experience except that now we've reached a point in our development when we can recognize that might doesn't necessarily make right.

I'm not sorry my ancestors came here, because otherwise, I would not exist. We're not perfect, and we need to acknowledge our sins, past and present, but I think this country is a good thing, I think the American experiment has overall had positive results, and I will not apologize for giving thanks to God for our many blessings.

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» RE: Unapologetically thankful. Posted by: Allstar Cookie
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» or unapologetically callous. Posted by: bornxeyed
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Reasons to be thankful
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Posted by: Jim on Nov 27, 2008 5:20 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My family of four may earn well under $20,000 a year but a number of our crops did well and our pantry and freezers are full. We do not expect to go hungry this winter. We can even afford to have a feast. We can manage a full tithe to our church. Yes, it is important to remember those who are not so fortunate. But we can give thanks also for what we have been given.
We don't celebrate Independence Day, Memorial Day, or Veterans Day. Here's a national day we can feel good about. It is not about Pilgrims and Indians, but being thankful for what is good today. Yes, there is lots to change, but there is lots that is good also. Remember these things and gain strength for the struggle.

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» RE: do you get it? Posted by: fearn

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Gloomy? Try Living Somewhere Else for a Year
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Posted by: jbpaz on Nov 27, 2008 5:40 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One year of living in a foreign place will give you a new perspective on America.
Eor example, you might be upset because we killed 7.4 millions innocent civilians in Asia. If I wrote this in another country, they wouldn't hesitate to string me up as an outside agitator.

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How bout
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Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line on Nov 27, 2008 5:47 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A day of forgiveness AND gratitude, then..after all if you acknowledge the failings of the past, why not forgive and move things into a more positive light. If you dwell in the past there is no way you can live in the now. Forgiveness and gratitude. forgiveness and gratitude. Thanks

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» Forgiveness? Posted by: bornxeyed
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I refuse to apologize.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: rickiey on Nov 27, 2008 6:05 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Original sin? Seriously?

Original sin is a moronic concept when applied to religion, and even more moronic when applied to politics or society.

I refuse to apologize for actions that are not my own.

Just because someone who had the same race as me, did something wrong to someone who didn't have the same race as me, doesn't mean I owe anyone anything, including and especially an apology.

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Thanksgiving/ Columbus Day-All US propaganda
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Posted by: 911FalseFlag on Nov 27, 2008 6:09 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I remember on Columbus day reading an article about what Christopher Columbus actually did and how he annihilated indigenous Indians in the Caribbean islands. Now on Thanksgiving it is good to read an article about the truth regarding the founders of this country and how history is rewritten by the conquerors.

Such a large proportion of people in this country do not want to awake from the dream that America is a democracy and is helping to spread democracy. A big part of the plan of the current day conquerors of this country (Federal Reserve Bank and a Secret Government talked about by Bill Moyers) is to keep everyone in debt so they do not have the mindset or the time to be bothered dealing with anything but the "party line" of this corrupt government.

Woodrow Wilson sold out this country to the European central bankers in order to be elected president. After leaving office, he said that he did the worst thing possible for his country by allowing the Federal Reserve Bank to be created in 1913.

However, the Federal Reserve Bank needed its own army to deal with situations that were better handled by force rather than the printing of money and lending it to the government. So, the CIA was created in the late 1940s.

Certain elements of the CIA have since then done the bidding of Federal Reserve Bank in overthrowing governments not willing to allow the United States to steal their resources. Since then, the CIA has joined forces with the World Bank and the IMF to create a new world domination force that has been referred to as the "Economic Hitmen".

Go to my website www.911insidejob.net and use the Google search function to find the articles and videos you are interested in reading and watching.

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What a message
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Posted by: 2thepoint on Nov 27, 2008 6:12 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We see articles posted such as this and then wonder why progressives are seen as a negative bunch.

How about we give thanks for being able to help all those around the world we do through aid, education etc..etc..

Let me insult you all.. Happy Thanksgiving

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» RE: What BS Posted by: fearn
» RE: What BS Posted by: Scientz
» RE: What BS Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: What a message Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: What a message Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: What a message Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: What a message Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: What a message Posted by: bornxeyed

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Progressive Responses to Indigenous Genocide
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Posted by: Naomi on Nov 27, 2008 6:12 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would like to challenge progressives to finally stand up and really fight against the genocide of Indigenous peoples, the respect for their sovereign rights and treaty agreements, and put the same amount of resources and solidarity into Indigenous causes as are put into other "progressive" efforts including the election of Obama.

The sad fact of the matter is, overcoming the institutionalized and ingrained racism against Indigenous peoples - including the over-romanticism and consumption of their culture and beliefs - has been beyond most non-natives to this point in history. It is reflected in the things I see and hear about every day.

Take for example this discussion about Thanksgiving. There are plenty of excuses in the comments why some still practice the usual form of thanksgiving. Some have tried to justify it as some form of a teaching tool.

Being in solidarity with Indigenous peoples means looking at their example - at what many native people do for this day - and that is to declare a day of mourning and a fast.

If you really want to prove how non-racist you are - then how about following THEIR example. If you really want to offer a teachable moment to your family and friends, tell them you aren't having a big feast on THIS PARTICULAR DAY because you want to honor the native people of the Americas in their, and their Ancestors, continuing struggle to resist genocide. That's setting an example. Move your get-together to another day if its THAT important to you. Lead by example.

As for the people who use the worn out excuses about "winner take all..." and "march of history..." - all I can say is your Ancestors still survive, and they weep for your ignorance because not only do you forget the native people of the Americas - but you forget your own Indigenous heritage and the traditional knowledge your people once knew that would teach you how to act with respect for all living things.

My prayers,
Aniomez

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» Here, here Posted by: chlamor
» RE: Here, here Posted by: sirios

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Thanks - for what?
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Posted by: justAnEgg on Nov 27, 2008 6:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It took me awhile to get familiar with the US so now, after eleven years of cultural adjustment, when asked for my opinion about the US, my answer would be: "If this is the future of humankind, we should be exterminated by DDT, now."

Selfishness, alienation, deterioration of mental health on a massive scale, hubris, fake feelings and fake relations, bigotry, corruption, fascist mentality of herd as an ultimate expression of social pathology ("you're with us or against us"), etc., etc. - they all exist in other nations of the world but in a much less extent. In the US of A, it became the very fabric of the society.

I only hope it's my Mid West perspective, but I have my doubts.

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» RE: Thanks - for what? Posted by: bornxeyed

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GRATITUDE IS THE PATH TO ENLIGHTMENT
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Posted by: drricklippin on Nov 27, 2008 6:49 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree we must not forget the past but

GRATITUDE IS THE PATH TO ENLIGHTMENT

So Happy Thanksgiving to All

Dr.Rick Lippin
Southmpton,Pa

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» serios provides wisdom Posted by: drricklippin

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It is a TRIBAL THING
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Posted by: sirwilliam on Nov 27, 2008 6:52 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems that one tribe has been killing off other tribes since day one. Perhaps it is time to really think about that. NO ONE seems to write about this part of man's existance; too easy to throw a label around about the other tribe than the one we live in. As we speak a tribe in India is attacking another. The Sunni's have been fighting with the Shites for over a thousand years. Joshua from the Bible slew all the residents ( men women and children) of Jericho...at the behest of God.
American Indian tribes fought and slaughtered one another. Equador has been fighting Peru for many many years. Etc, etc, etc, etc, all through time. And economic tribes are afoot also....so whatever form it takes; it is a tribe. So my question to all. What tribe are you in? And whom is your tribe fighting against?

This type of slaughter is in everyone's bloodlines.

So what can be done about it so it changes?

I can only imagine what the future holds as populations increase; energy supplies dwindle, and food shortages prevail.

Are we all ONE; or are we one within our tribe?

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» RE: It is a TRIBAL THING Posted by: donl51
» RE: More BS.. Posted by: fearn
» You're 100% wrong. Posted by: Scientz
» RE: More BS.. Posted by: Joni50
» RE: It is a TRIBAL THING Posted by: bornxeyed

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IN ORDER TO SAVE THE WORLD......
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Posted by: drricklippin on Nov 27, 2008 6:52 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... first we must savor it!

Grow up whiners!

Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton,Pa

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» RE: IN ORDER TO SAVE THE WORLD...... Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: IN ORDER TO SAVE THE WORLD...... Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: IN ORDER TO SAVE THE WORLD...... Posted by: ConnecttheDots

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I Agree We Need to Acknowledge Our "Country"
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Posted by: barringer75 on Nov 27, 2008 6:50 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Through all of the talk and beating of our collective chests we fail to acknowledge what really happened and what is happening here in this so called beacon of democracy and freedom. I know we can't go back and undo what has happened, but I fully agree with the author of this article. The reason why we keep the fantasy going is because our actions and mindset perpetuate it. It's so much easier to keep it going or to say that it's a great day and I look at the day from a personal level. But we are all responsible for the actions of this government because we are the government. Yes the elites have manipulated our history to keep things going for a time, perhaps we will figure out how to inflate another bubble, or Obama will pull a rabbit out of an economic hat, I doubt it. We will hang on to this vision of "America" as long as we can until just like during the last Depression people started to realize that there were many things wrong with the way the elites were running this country. Obama is part of this group because he is a front man and he cannot do anything that would go against the status quo. This global system is collapsing and a new serfdom has arrived on these shores for virtually the entire population of the "richest country in the world." The majority of the world never left serfdom, this populace had a glimmer of freedom for the common man and it is fading fast. The story line connects and the lies continue. For me all I need to do is take a look at my own very large family by United States standards (13 siblings, 22 grands and 22 great grands) to understand how history and not knowing history can destroy or build the future. Those of us who know the true history are working to shape the future based on the sound heritage our parents left for us. Those of us who want to manipulate the present and the future either negate the history, lie or create a new one.

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The folly of 'white greed'!!!!Mt. Rushmore = Monument to Genocidal Maniacs
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Posted by: jeffrey7 on Nov 27, 2008 6:53 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Both the Puritans and the Pilgrims had themselves a good old fashioned 'killing party' to get the land,the food stores and cement themselves as Lord and master of a land that was never their's to begin with. In their lust for riches all bets were off concerning the 'locals'. Ithe last 400 years hence...little has changed.

Greed has pushed us into Iraq. It pushed us into Vietnam and it will push us into some other distant land for their resources. Guess
we never learned.

Thanksgiving, real thanksgiving is more than just a good reason to sit down with friends and family a stuff yourself silly. This is the time when The People after gathering stores for the winter,came together and expressed Thanks to everything. Thanks for the land,the sky, the animals,the birds,the fishes, the creepy crawlers and those that slither. You give thanks for the Energy that sustains all living things. You give thanks for the Earth as a whole,for the stars in the sky, and the extended family that is all around you. You express thanks for all that are your family, Elders,Youngers,Children,Babies,those who came before and those yet to come.

White settlers brought Bullets,Booze and Bibles to destabilize this nation. We do it yet today because we've not dispached the very thing that causes folks to devalue all life...
simple human GREED.

Mt. Rushmore stands as a great testiment to such greed. It also stands for Theft,Lies, and
Genocide. Not one of those faces ever dealt straight with the Native Americans nor the people the ruled. Much like today.

If you don't like hearing about how we really got thias hoilday..then you probably have bloodties to the Pilgrims or the Puritans,
or much worse...you're a racist.

History is repeating itself because of that kind of thinking.The mindset that says 'Forget about the past. It's too long ago to count." If we don't remember tha trail that brought us to where we are today,then we will never find a way to a better future.

Yes bring you families together in this time of Mid-Fall. Be happy for all around you, both the human and non-human living things because both are important parts of the whole of life.
Then teach the truth...The truth that sometimes humans make terrible things happen to get what they want and that unchecked greed is the reason why. Teach that all people,regardless of color or social standing are related to eachother just by being human and that we should never again make use of force the way we deal with eachother and the Earth as a whole.

You can forgive but you should never forget.
It is in the forgetting that we give ourselves
the same myopic thought that recreates the old massacre of by gone days in present reality.

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we are still here... the old days are gone but we survive...
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Posted by: ellie on Nov 27, 2008 7:05 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
thanks to all who voiced their opinions this morning... both sides can learn... we are still learning to live among you even if you don't realize we live among you too...

to our family, thanksgiving is commonly called 'there goes the neighborhood day'... but in fact, to us, it's a memorial feed to honor and thank all our relatives who have come before us and suffered... we honor them for their strength, wisdom, determination and deaths that we are even here today... we also pray that the next 7 generations remember the past fully and look forward to their futures as Indian people...

metakue oyasin...

ellie = enrolled member of Rosebud Sioux Tribe of South Dakota, hubby = enrolled member of Northern Florida - Southern Alabama Band of the Creek Nation, our kids, grandkids, friends, enemies and outlaws...

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Celebrating Genocide!
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Posted by: CyberBrook on Nov 27, 2008 7:55 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here's my take on it:

Celebrating Genocide!

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» RE: Celebrating Genocide! Posted by: lenioui

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Be thankful for longer whips...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Nov 27, 2008 8:11 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...otherwise you wouldn't get very far down the back while self-flagellating.

People who haven't murdered anyone don't owe the author any recognition or support of his personal adventures in hysterical, self-imposed guilt.

Or rather, one could lay the blame on A. africanus, who had the tyrannical impulse to evolve for the purpose of eventually giving art to your impulse to grieve over your imagined guilt.

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» Yes, exactly...THAT hysteria of YOURS Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Here, here ABF! Posted by: Scientz

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Dockside
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Posted by: rtmyth on Nov 27, 2008 8:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I give thanks, or blame, to Shai every day. But Jensen's remarks cause me to think about our innate kindness as well the evil passions cloaked by religion.

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Vini Vidi Vici
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Posted by: kad on Nov 27, 2008 8:28 AM   
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To imply that the current inhabitants of the U.S. are any different than the inhabitants of most of the other settled countries of the world is to take a very short sighted view of history. Take a look at Europe, The Middle East, The Caucus', Asia Minor, India, South America, and tell me how many countries are still populated by the aboriginal groups. Not too mention that there is growing body of evidence that the "Native" Americans were actually guilty of genocide themselves, driving out an aboriginal population to take over.

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» RE: Ahhhhhhh, Posted by: fearn

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chuck reinhardt
[Report this comment]
Posted by: chuckyeo on Nov 27, 2008 8:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the only part of thanksgiving to celebrate is family, as abe lincoln intended. we must make aware in our schools how we treated the native americans. just like columbus, he invaded america and the natives who lived here, not dicover them.

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ALL KATIE COURIC ON YA
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Posted by: caru on Nov 27, 2008 9:03 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ah, thanks.

now i remember when i made the shift. when i saw satellite footage of katie couric dissing the indians and those who would question thanksgiving.

i prefer indigenous peoples days. we all can give thanks that we are born of earth. maybe the indigenous people can show us the way home.

in the gold country of california, 99.9% of the maidu were slaughtered as savages. earth speaks of this sudden disapearence of a people who loved earth. those would not harvest gold as they saw it as the eyes of the earth. their very language is earth.

survivors of this time can show us the way home.


earth, all indigenous.

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Mr. Appreciates What He Got
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Posted by: jwc1480 on Nov 27, 2008 9:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Don't forget the present when you give thanks for the health you have, the food on the table, the roof over your head, the closeness of your family. Sound too simple, not political enough for you? Perhaps then you are greedy, and all the world is not enough.

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» RE: Mr. Appreciates What He Got Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line

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Please post this again next year!!!!!!
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Posted by: nfamous on Nov 27, 2008 9:11 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Americans need to read this article every year until they get it through their thick heads that just because you have the ability to kill people and take their resources you don't have to do that. This overaggression of white people needs to be studied so we can figure out how to counter it. Other races are sometimes overaggressive but it seems to be the defining feature of whites when they are in power. When you combine this proclivity for violence with technology the elite have the ability to destroy the entire planet and plan on doing it as long as they have an escape plan.

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That would be change we could beilieve in.
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Posted by: popparook on Nov 27, 2008 9:19 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Where today are the Pequot? Where are the Narragansett, the Mohican, the Pokanoket, and many other once powerful tribes of our people? They have vanished before the avarice and the oppression of the White Man, as snow before a summer sun."
-Tecumseh Shawnee
http://noyoulistentome.blogspot.com/

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» RE: We need to remember.. Posted by: fearn
» RE: We need to remember.. Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» Utter nonsense Posted by: brunowe
» Your history is way off Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Your history is way off Posted by: Scientz
» Veni, Vidi, Vici ... Posted by: stellabloo

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Celebrating the unspeakable
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Posted by: chlamor on Nov 27, 2008 9:52 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
White America embraced Thanksgiving because a majority of that population glories in the fruits, if not the unpleasant details, of genocide and slavery and feels, on the whole, good about their heritage: a cornucopia of privilege and national power. Children are taught to identify with the good fortune of the Pilgrims. It does not much matter that the Native American and African holocausts that flowed from the feast at Plymouth are hidden from the children’s version of the story – kids learn soon enough that Indians were made scarce and Africans became enslaved. But they will also never forget the core message of the holiday: that the Pilgrims were good people, who could not have purposely set such evil in motion. Just as the first Thanksgivings marked the consolidation of the English toehold in what became the United States, the core ideological content of the holiday serves to validate all that has since occurred on these shores – a national consecration of the unspeakable, a balm and benediction for the victors, a blessing of the fruits of murder and kidnapping, and an implicit obligation to continue the seamless historical project in the present day.

The Thanksgiving story is an absolution of the Pilgrims, whose brutal quest for absolute power in the New World is made to seem both religiously motivated and eminently human. Most importantly, the Pilgrims are depicted as victims – of harsh weather and their own naïve yet wholesome visions of a new beginning. In light of this carefully nurtured fable, whatever happened to the Indians, from Plymouth to California and beyond, in the aftermath of the 1621 dinner must be considered a mistake, the result of misunderstandings – at worst, a series of lamentable tragedies. The story provides the essential first frame of the American saga. It is unalloyed racist propaganda, a tale that endures because it served the purposes of a succession of the Pilgrims’ political heirs, in much the same way that Nazi-enhanced mythology of a glorious Aryan/German past advanced another murderous, expansionist mission.

Thanksgiving encourages these cognitive cripples in their madness, just as it is designed to do.

Thanksgiving is quite dangerous – as were the Pilgrims.

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Get Over It and Evolve
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Posted by: Raven Laughing on Nov 27, 2008 10:00 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems to me I see this same kind of diatribe every year at thanksgiving. My question I guess is why is it that the revolution to give America back to the Native Americans only happens during this time. Humans have been misbehaving badly against humans since we first crawled out of the trees and started using tools. If we truly wanted to atone it seems we must go back to before any human was mistreated by any government or organization of people. Does this mean we should all move back to the African Savannah where all of our most ancient ancestors started this journey.
The same folks who do the same kind of whining in this article are the ones who are doing nothing to really promote equality of treatment in the human population. They write a bunch of whiny books extolling how we must change this or that because our ancestors were not politically correct.
I am willing to bet that most people who contribute or read AlterNet lean towards the theories of evolution, yet they cannot accept the evolution of the humanzee, which has mostly been tough, bloody, and violent.
It is time to get over the past and evolve, hopefully in a more enlightened way than our ancestors.

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Proof Positive
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Posted by: kk33deg on Nov 27, 2008 10:07 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From Tim Wise's excellent article that AlterNet posted just yesterday:

"The humorlessness of the far left -- to which I remain connected ideologically if not organizationally -- has always struck me as one of its greatest weaknesses. People like to laugh, they like to smile, they like to be joyful, and an awful lot of hardened leftists seem almost utterly incapable of doing any of these things. It's as if they have all taken a pledge that there should be no laughter until the revolution, or some such shit. No positivity, no hope, no happiness so long as people are still poor and exploited and being murdered by cops, and victimized by United States militarism, or performing as wage slaves for global capital, or eating meat, or driving cars. And they wonder why the left is so weak?"

The replacement of Thanksgiving Day and its self-indulgent family feasting with a National Day of Atonement accompanied by a self-reflective collective fasting is a program that all sorts of people are going to get behind. Good luck building THAT coalition.


Happy holidays to all,
Austin from Houston

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» PROGRESSIVES AND PLEASURE Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: Proof Positive Posted by: bornxeyed

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The Church/State has a long tradition of co-opting pagan holidays.
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Posted by: stellabloo on Nov 27, 2008 10:08 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Christmas. Easter. Halloween. Thanksgiving. All currently tied to a celebration of excess and successful maintenance of the status quo.

Wishful thinking of course, but as an unrepentant pagan I would like to see all these holidays taken back and celebrated as they were hundreds and thousands of years ago (minus the human sacrifices, of course): The Return of the the Light, the Birth of Spring, the Observance of Death and of course, the traditional Harvest Thanksgiving, which originally had nothing to do with Puritans (ugh) and more to do with giving thanks for a successful harvest. Midsummer's Eve used to be celebrated, too, usually with an all-night party ;.)

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United States Citizen
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Posted by: throck on Nov 27, 2008 10:49 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We won. I'm thankful. Because of the "sins" of our founding fathers, you are allowed to write this drivel. I am going to enjoy a delicious purpose-bred turkey for dinner. Rave on!!!

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» RE: United States Citizen Posted by: lenioui

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So now who is distorting history?
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Posted by: Sojourner on Nov 27, 2008 12:04 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, we need a day of atonement for genocide. Until then, I’d settle for the US signing the UN Convention without qualification. “At ratification, ‘reservations’ and ‘declarations’ included by the U.S. would allow U.S. policy makers to decide when and whether the Convention can be applied to the U.S.” (http://www.serendipity.li/cda/goc1.html)

Is our annual Thanksgiving Holiday time then for sackcloth and ashes? Depends on whose history you read.

Lincoln’s proclamation called for celebrating the original fall feast of 1621. The Pequot War happened in 1637, when the European settlers were joined by the Narragansett in a terrible conflict against the Pequot.

Jensen gives us (year after year) “Some aspects of the conventional story are true enough. But…” Sorry. That ain’t history. It’s rhetoric.

Recently AlterNet identified such patterns as “the barbiturate left.” I guess we all have our crosses to bear, as the saying goes.

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America was built on and credited with G-E-N-O-C-I-D-E !
[Report this comment]
Posted by: maxpayne on Nov 27, 2008 12:39 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is no surprise that America loves guns and violence and wars as our society's education and culture is FUDGED ! And let's be honest, "liberal" or "conservative" or whatever, the electorate is filled with IGNORANT MACHO-EGOTISTICAL SELF-CONFIDENT YANKEES who think no ends of themselves but believe that going to resource wars will somehow keep them "safe".

Dr. Jenson, let

GOD CONTINUE TO SEVERELY PUNISH AMERICA TO ETERNAL DAMNATION !!

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» WE ARE JUST A YOUNG NATION Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: WE ARE JUST A YOUNG NATION Posted by: bornxeyed

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America
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Posted by: Von on Nov 27, 2008 3:33 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
so wrapped up in 'rights' and so little in fundamental responsibilities ...

what an unorganized cluster-fuck of a culture that daily tries to market it sense of self worth & greatness.........as it IS the biggest debtor nation, the largest array of technology that can kill the most human beings AND destroy the World over.

Genetically modified foods..all FDA approved of course. GOBBLE GOBBLE

Pharmacuetical prescriptions drugs being doled out by doctors that CAN and HAVE killed our citizens. A health care / insurance system that is in shambles. A justice system that is 'laughable'. A money making system that is controled by a cartel. Huge US corporations in need of welfare. People, including children living in the streets.........


Yes, many of this takes place in some other countries but to brush it under the rug to the extent that America does and STILL claim greatness shows nothing will change.

America is in bail out mode after a couple hundred years. Not something to be proud of

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Thanksgiving is a good thing
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Posted by: kimidol on Nov 27, 2008 3:57 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is a day to give thanks, no matter who you are for what you have and all the dark minded rationalization in the world is a waste of such a good way to spend a day.

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but...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: COhippie on Nov 27, 2008 4:08 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For crying out loud let us have Thanksgiving in peace.

Atone for the wrongdoings on another day.

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» RE: but... Posted by: pelican beak
» RE: but... Posted by: COhippie
» RE: but... Posted by: pelican beak

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Every Day is Thanksgiving / Day of Mourning
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Posted by: Joni50 on Nov 27, 2008 4:17 PM   
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Any day is a good day to give thanks. And any day is a good day to reflect on the crimes of the past and present, educate oneself and others, make amends, and pray for the dead.

However, from what I've seen, many Native Americans (except for Bellcourt's bunch and the Mayflower Coalition) celebrate the fourth Thursday of November pretty much the same way as everyone else - with feasting and family get togethers. From what I've seen, the second Monday of October is more likely to be observed as a Day of Mourning.

I just came back from a Thanksgiving dinner celebrated at a local church. This town has a sizable minority of Native Americans; there is a large res about 100 miles to the south. There were Native American families present at the dinner. They did not fast or make a show of mourning or protesting; they ate and socialized like everyone else.

On the other hand, I've seen and participated in many protests, memorials, and other solemn observances for the second Monday in October aka "Columbus Day" aka "Indigenous Peoples' Day." I even helped organize a few. There was a Drum, prayers for the Dead, education about past and present oppression, and some people were fasting.

At the Thanksgiving dinner at church that I just came back from, I stationed myself in the kitchen during the preparations, doing my usual jobs: cleaning up small messes before they became big messes, wrapping carcass bones and putting them in the refrigerator for safe use later, and praying for the Dead.

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What self-hate?
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Posted by: landsend on Nov 27, 2008 6:21 PM   
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There is no "self-hate" in recognizing historical truth. If you have to lie to yourself in order to get through the day, you need help.

This country, like all others in the Western Hemisphere to one degree or another, was conceived in genocide and nurtured in slavery.

It was also conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal -- sort of. The effort to make that promise a reality has constantly been denounced as subversive. The fights for equal rights, rights for labor, and democracy have all been led by people who were considered subversives at the time and who have been imprisoned, beaten and killed for their efforts -- frequently by the government itself (Haymarket), or by rightwing thugs (Ku Klux Klan, Pinkertons, etc.) while the government's agencies of repression (FBI especially) pretended to look the other way.

What is obscene about this is that imperialist elements have then used the human rights victories -- won by these subversives and which the imperialists themselves fought against -- as justification for further imperialist conquest. That is why we need some historical truth. Lying about the supposedly glorious history of Thanksgiving, or averting one's eyes from the truth -- that's real self-hate.

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"Give thanks that you're not Nicaraguan"
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Posted by: landsend on Nov 27, 2008 7:45 PM   
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Abigal Van Buren, in her widely published "Dear Abby" advice column, wrote on Thanksgiving Day in both 1987 and 1988 that even if you are homeless and living in a box, you have something to be thankful for: be thankful that you don't live in Nicaragua.

The suggestion that maybe God was blessing Americans and damning Nicaraguans is typical of a great deal of the "let's be thankful for what we have" propaganda around Thanksgiving.

Nicaragua was then the victim of the Reagan administration's war of aggression to overthrow the country's democratically elected government -- for which the World Court unanimously (even the American justice) had just condemned the United States government. The U.S. government pretended to ignore the decision.

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"Give thanks that you're not Nicaraguan"
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Posted by: landsend on Nov 27, 2008 7:49 PM   
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Abigal Van Buren, in her widely published "Dear Abby" advice column, wrote on Thanksgiving Day in both 1987 and 1988 that even if you are homeless and living in a box, you have something to be thankful for: be thankful that you don't live in Nicaragua or Ethiopia.

The suggestion that maybe God was blessing Americans and damning Nicaraguans and Ethiopians is typical of a great deal of the "let's be thankful for what we have" propaganda around Thanksgiving.

Nicaragua was then the victim of the Reagan administration's war of aggression to overthrow the country's democratically elected government -- for which the World Court unanimously (even the American justice) had just condemned the United States government. The U.S. government pretended to ignore the decision.

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stop celebrating the rescue of english pirate bastards called pilgrims-my foot pilgrims!!!
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Posted by: avatar_singh on Nov 27, 2008 8:10 PM   
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November 27, 2008
Justice for Indian Country
Thanksgiving We Can Believe In

By STEVE HENDRICKS

Seven years before Tisquantum (Squanto, to most of us) helped the Pilgrims recover from their disastrous first winter in America, he was kidnapped by an English cod fisher and fur trader who was diversifying into the human trade. Tisquantum and other stock were shipped to Spain under hatch, a murderous passage, and most of the survivors were sold into slavery. Tisquantum was among the lucky, rescued by friars before he could be auctioned, though perhaps held a few years to ensure his salvation by Christ. We do not know how Tisquantum made his way to London and finagled a job as guide and interpreter on a ship bound for New England. But in 1619, four years after his abduction, he returned to America only to find his town of Patuxet in ruins and nearly all its 2,000 Wampanoags dead of European pox. When the Pilgrims arrived the following winter, they founded Plymouth on Patuxet's remains--a cruel symbol, that.

We do not hear much of this history on Thanksgiving. We hear instead that in the spring of 1621 Tisquantum taught the Pilgrims to grown corn and catch eel. We hear that come autumn, gratitude suffused the harvest feast, that beautiful gathering of men who had seen Shakespeare in his lifetime and men ignorant of paper but living lives of plenty. These things are indeed true, but a fuller truth is that Tisquantum helped the Pilgrims as much from fear as from charity and that alongside the goodwill at the first Thanksgiving were mutual mistrust and just-restrained hostility. The mistrust, on the Wampanoags' side at least, was well founded, as their destruction by colonial America soon proved..""
from http://www.counterpunch.org/hendricks11272008.html

=============

. The civil war in america was not only supported with money and arms by england but rather england was the instigator of american civil war in order to keep whole of america enslaved and if not possible at least those parts (South) where it could call upon filial loyalty. It was truly a war of race-not against whites and blacks but against anglo saxons versus blacks, Irish, other European peoples .The same would be repeated in future. The confederacy was a traitor to america-a british agents; but ironically that same confederacy flag today is being propagandised by their descendents as symbol of american independence and patriotism. Having lost the proxy war england resorted to the one thing it specialises-terrorism and misinformation. Abraham Lincoln was murdered by the person very sympathetic to british cause. (against Napoleon england had sent several terrorist squads-that is why Napoleon had to declare Himself an Emperor to maintain the clear line of succession to protect glorious French Revolution). It is very interesting that most of the american presidents assassinated were those whom England did not want being elected. By the end of civil war ,instead of disinfranchasising the british supporters (of southern states) and taking away their land or at least redistributing evenly the stolen land, the american govt. was persuaded by britain to spare them and let those southern traitors keep all the stolen land so that drug (tobacco) and cotton would be of assured supply to england. Of course by that time because of fall of Napoleon (brought about not by military might but by conspiracy to embroil the Europeans among each other( conspiracy hatched in London-that was the only english contribution to napoleons' fall-forget waterloo where Austrians and Prussians had contributed most militarily):consequently england got free reign to exploit the rest of the world and amassed wealth. With that new loot the english shopkeepers started not only factory but also bought titles (Always a purchasable item in england) and started giving themselves high sounding titles and names.

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What about the current genocide in Gaza?
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Posted by: Reader11722 on Nov 27, 2008 9:13 PM   
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It is so easy to keep attacking the white man (when in reality, all of you minorities owe the white man for civility). How about attacking zioni$t rulers of today conducting a genocide on Gaza as you read this? Will Obama help the victims? No, because Mossad already owns Obama (he picked Rahm Emanuel, the son of a terrorist as Chief of Staff). Obama will probably let Mossad slide on their 9/11 involvement and Obama will allow them to continue their genocide on Palestinians. So maybe we can lay off the white man for poor conduct a hundred or so years ago and write an article about current genocides conducted by the Chosen People.

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Indigenous Survival Day
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Posted by: JakobFabian01 on Nov 27, 2008 10:24 PM   
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How do we interest white US-Americans in those aspects of their history that ought to make them feel ashamed?

I don't know. But an open invitation to shame is not likely to work. Nor is replacing a joyful and potentially universally appealing holiday, as Thanksgiving is or ought to be, with a day of national mourning.

It is celebration, not mourning, that people find attractive. And what better to celebrate than the survival of the indigenous peoples of this continent?

Survival was, after all, the real cause for celebration at the legendary original Thanksgiving feast. But all of us, regardless of our heritage, are survivors. Survival, like gratitude, is something that you can celebrate without excluding others. It can and should be shared.

It may be objected that Thanksgiving, with all its mythical white supremacist baggage, is much too "white" to be acceptable by surviving indigenous peoples. This is a worthy objection. I can only suggest, for their approval:

Let there be an Indigenous Survival Day (set to occur on the day after what once was called "Columbus Day"). Let this Indigenous Survival Day be a joyful celebration, something like the Juneteenth Day that African-Americans celebrate and that even progressive whites are beginning to appreciate, even though it isn't really "their" holiday. Juneteenth also serves as a historical reminder of something I'm sure white folk don't want to remember: That the emancipation of slaves did not take place on the day the Emancipation Proclamation was signed, but some time later, since whites generally didn't bother to tell the slaves themselves.

Maybe an Indigenous Survival Day could serve a similar function.

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So on the Friday after Thanksgiving...
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Posted by: Blink on Nov 28, 2008 7:35 AM   
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we can eat leftover turkey and dressing in peace? It's only on the fourth Thursday of each November that we must be racked with guilt?

People of all races and ethnicities have suffered throughout humankind's history. All that matters is where we are NOW. And Thanksgiving is one day in which no present is required, only a nice meal for which to be thankful and share with others. If other people want to feel guilty about what some people long since dead did to other people long since dead, that's their business. I for one will continue to see myself as an individual who had no responsibility whatsoever for any of the so-called wrongs of the past and will enjoy my Thanksgiving Day as an opportunity to be grateful for what I have been blessed with and what I have earned as a result of my hard work and the somewhat free country in which we live.

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atone for what?
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Nov 28, 2008 10:21 AM   
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atone for what? my great grandparents emigrated in the early 1900s from poland and russia. if they hadn't, my grandparents would all have been gassed or shot by hitler and his ilk.

wonder if the author of this article, mr. jenson, fasts to atone!?!? hey, i hung out with 15 vegan friends and we made a huge vegan feast and thanked mama earth for all her bounty. truth is, if we don't start taking better care of our "mama," we'll all be fasting involuntarily during our lifetimes...be grateful every day you have a hot shower, a place to poo, glasses of water and food. might not last...
oh, and i hope the person who decided to publish this article yesterday fasted to atone for his 400 year old sins.

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» RE: p.s. better to atone Posted by: jonnymil

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stupid
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Posted by: jstepp590 on Nov 28, 2008 10:35 AM   
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We wiped out the indians?!? Hello! How do you expect that a few hundred people on wooden boats with blunderbusses wiped out 20-50 million indians?

Go back to school. Study the diseases environment as it affected the virgin field population found here. Smallpox alone wiped out over 90% of europeans every time it rolled through, and they had many generations to develop at least a minimum resistance to it.

The thought that we could have "wiped out" the indians was a sop to the eurocentric ego as a declaration of our superiority, not anything based in fact.

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» Riiiiiiiiiiight.... Posted by: bornxeyed

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The Haudenosaunee (Six Nations/Iroquois) Thanksgiving Address
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Posted by: aquariansun on Nov 28, 2008 3:09 PM   
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http://www.peace4turtleisland.org/pages/Thanks.htm

I grew up in Onondaga County, Upstate New York- original Haudenosaunee (Six Nation/Iroquois) territory. At the Oneida nation museum, they sell a copy of their nation's original thanksgiving address, in English & Iroquois languages. I agree with the author that we should be ashamed of the atrocities committed to the First Nation peoples long ago and continually. However, I do not let that prevent me from openly appreciating all the special phenomena that are symbolized around this time of year, the harvest, etc. and that is why I've turned to the Haudenosaunee's words in the last 5 Tday celebrations I've attended. Check them out at the link above. Maybe by pairing the rejection of overt commercialism with embracing timeless cultural instincts, we could really make these holidays worth celebrating.

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The Iroquois Thanksgiving Address
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Posted by: Joni50 on Nov 28, 2008 7:32 PM   
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earlier on this thread, someone asked what do Indians, um, excuse me, Native AMericans, have to be thankful for. And my brother and I (we both have some Native heritage though not well-documented enough to be enrolled in a tribe, and we both know many other Native Americans as well) answered to the effect that Native Americans have the same things to be thankful for as anyone else. Someone else posted this link:

http://www.peace4turtleisland.org/pages/Thanks.htm

About all I can add, is to put the link in a form that one can easily click on...

thanksgiving

We Are All Connected

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Remove "Viking" add "USA"
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Posted by: jwgrant on Nov 29, 2008 12:14 AM   
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Remove "Viking" and add "USA."

The Vikings could be bad, but the Vikings were rank amateurs when compared to the devastation and slaughter the USA has been responsible for since our independence and nationhood. History should teach us that we must first end the rape and murder going on today.

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Idiotic article, dimwitted premise, stupid comments.
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Posted by: BillWhedon on Nov 29, 2008 9:46 PM   
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Tell ya what .. you want to breast-beat for the Noble Savages, go right ahead. Not I, nor my folks, nor my grandparents ever killed, raped, or enslaved anyone. Sure, we all feel real bad that you were killed, raped, and enslaved, but since we didn't do it, nor were you materially affected (other than stupid self-pity), we owe you NOTHING.

You owe yourselves the self-respect required to pull your head out of your ass and get a job and make reparations for crying and bemoaning and wanting everyone to feel Real Sorry for you and give you money because Great Uncle RedFeather got killed by some distant relative of the guy down the block, and thinking about it made you a wino.

Grow up. Get real. We owe you Jack Shit.
Bill Whedon

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Turkey day not commemorating genocide
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Posted by: RealEducator on Dec 1, 2008 5:27 PM   
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I don't agree with the suggestion that Thanksgiving celebrates genocide of native Americans. Evidence suggests a reason to celebrate thanksgiving as thanks for what we have, bountiful foods, friends and family, etc. The original colonists were suffering tremendously. the native peoples gave the colonists food and shelter. We should recognize the actions of the native peoples on this holiday.

Yes millions of natives died, The first to die did so from diseases brought by the colonists. accidently.

Thanksgiving day has no relation to the natives that were killed thereafter by war, raids, or manifest destiny.

Lets use our sensibilities, our humanness, and a bit of occam's razor, to distinguish right from wrong, good from evil, truth from fictions. Thanksgiving celebrates a truly human deed, the fact the natives helped some poor, diseased, famished, helpless colonists, and distinguish this from attrocities later committed.

The USA has committed many attrocities, as a nation, as people within the nation, but we must distinguish and recognze what has happened if we are to change for a better future. There are good qualities, traditions about this country, and I think Thanksgiving comes from one of the best origins, the people that lived here first, the Native Americans.

Thanks

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Crafting a new structure for Thanksgiving has merit
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Posted by: dgleason on Dec 4, 2008 9:48 AM   
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Thanksgiving is the traditional harvest celebration which has roots in many things. The U.S.'s inclination for rhetoric that would not make it in a fairy story because it is so divorced from reality that it looses all possibility of meaning.

This year we had our meal on Saturday (which really makes more sense if you are actually the person cooking all that blessed food). A movement of this sort could in fact leave a little more room for reflection on human history and less of a white wash of genocide.

To me the history of thanksgiving is a profound lesson. There is so much that is not generally known, including that the diseases brought (unknowingly) by the first waves of conquerors (christopher columbus holiday is the one I find most suspect) had already decimated populations on the continent and made the local populations more amenable to incoming individuals.

The profoundity was in the waste of the initial goodwill and how readily human beings are converted from cooperators to persecutors.

We need to learn this about ourselves, and if we claim a mythology about our country we need to be a little more comprehensive about the extent of it.

The american psyche is becoming weak, where we can only be proud of something or someone if we bury the bad and exagerate the good.

This is not an adult approach, it is adolescent, as is the insistance that the correllary is true, that we might not act as dispicably as those in history given the same situations. We seem very inclined to think that we would behave better than we have a right to believe we would based on the facts of history.

Many very good people woke up every morning satisfied that all was right with the world when our freedom loving country was supporting slavery and all their women were disenfranchised.

The thing that is most dishonest is our surity that given the same history as our ancestors we would have behaved better. It is an important thing to remember.

Danielle

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