Blog for Our Future / By Sara Robinson
comments_imageCOMMENTS: 207

Worried About Thanksgiving Fights with Right-Wing Family Members?

How to counter 10 of the most common myths conservatives believe about progressives.
November 26, 2008  |  
 
 
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Oh, Lordy. It is that time again. Thursday is Thanksgiving -- the official kickoff event of the 2008 holiday season. For a lot of progressives, these festivities also mean that we're about to spend more quality time with our conservative relatives over the next six weeks than is strictly good for our blood pressure, stress levels, or continued sanity.

Personally, I'm not a wholehearted fan of turkey -- probably because the mere smell of it instantly slams me back into memories of several decades of Thanksgiving dinner arguments with conservative kin that took a turn for the ugly. We all know we're supposed to stick to "safe" topics like the kids, college football, and the weather; and avoid controversial issues like religion, politics and whether oysters belong in a proper bird stuffing. But the afternoon is long, and after the approved topics have been exhausted and that third bottle of Cabernet vanishes and the tryptophan torpor hits, decorum and discipline are at high risk of going all to hell. After that, things can and do get contentious, usually in ways that make everyone wish we could all just go back to fighting over oysters in the stuffing.

These family gatherings were hard enough to stomach through the appalling years of the Bush Adoration -- but this year, it's likely to be even worse. Our beloved family wingnuts were insufferable, in a grotesque Mayberry-on-acid surreal kind of way, while crowing into their succotash about the manly Godliness (or was it Godly manliness?) of Our Divinely Ordained Commander-in-Chief. But this year's different. This year, they're on the way out of power -- and they're scared witless about it. Which means big steaming heapin' helpings of liberal-bashing are likely to be featured prominently on the menu next to the mashed potatoes, as they put fresh vigor into every paranoid anti-liberal fantasy ever spouted by Rush, Reverend Pat, or their new darling, Sarah Palin.

The black guy won. Armageddon -- or, at the very least, socialism, atheism, gun control, and a national epidemic of erectile dysfunction -- must certainly be at hand.

As you prepare to head once again into the family fray, it might be useful to note that most of the right wing's favorite anti-liberal slanders are rooted in some deeply-held -- and deeply wrong -- assumptions about who liberals are, and what we believe. If your relatives, God bless 'em all, insist on going down that road, your best defense this year might be to listen closely for these underlying myths and fables at work -- and be prepared to challenge them head-on when they surface in the discussion.

Here's a basic set to get you started. Tuck it away in your bag with your Xanax and Maalox, and apply (liberally, of course) as needed.

1. Liberals hate America.

For the record: Liberals love America. In fact, what makes us liberals is that we actually read and believed all those pretty words in the Declaration of Independence about "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness," and in the Bill of Rights about freedom of speech, religion, assembly, privacy, and all the rest of it.

We're idealists that way. We want to live in the country the Founders described. We believe that the nation's founding documents expressed a uniquely powerful moral contract between the people and their government, and an audaciously positive vision of people's ability and competence to shape their own future. When we get annoying and whiny, it's usually because we believe so much in America's astonishing promise -- and our own responsibility for realizing it -- that we're sorely disappointed when the country falls short of that standard. We really want to believe we can do better.

Conservatism, by contrast, tends to take a dim view of human nature, prefers hierarchy to liberty, and isn't completely convinced people can or should be trying to contravene the will of God or their betters by trying to arrange their own futures. This tends to lead to a selective reading of the Constitution (as well as the Bible), and -- as we've seen in the Bush years -- a far more flexible attitude toward its interpretation.

The proof, however, is in the history -- and it's pretty irrefutable. America's greatest moments of progress, generosity, and moral strength occurred when the country stuck most closely to its progressive ideals. We loved America so much that we freed the slaves, passed child labor laws, built schools and colleges, gave the vote to women, enacted civil rights laws, rebuilt Europe after a war we helped win, and put a man on the moon. All of these were progressive projects -- and all were fought tooth and nail by conservatives in their time, simply because they feared change and saw power as a zero-sum game. Yeah, we sometimes overshoot and miss -- but you can't argue with the daring scope of our dreams.


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Sara Robinson is a twenty-year veteran of Silicon Valley, and is launching a second career as a strategic foresight analyst. When she's not studying change theories and reactionary movements, you can find her singing the alto part over at Orcinus. She lives in Vancouver, BC with her husband and two teenagers.
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Corinne573
[Report this comment]
Posted by: corinne122 on Nov 26, 2008 1:15 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Beautiful piece! I'm sending this to all my friends. Thank you!

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» RE: Corinne573 Posted by: popparook

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Interesting Info
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Setnakt on Nov 26, 2008 1:21 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And good to know in general. However I'm THRILLED that when my relatives arrive I'll need none of it! We have no "black sheep" in our family were ALL black sheep. No Republicans, no Neocons and (thank the gods) NO Christians of any variaty whatsoever. I'm looking forward to another wonderful and harmonious Thanksgiving (and Yule and the New Year thearafter). Happy Holidays all (or maybe not for some).

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» Is this a joke? Posted by: -matti
» RE: Is this a joke? Posted by: Setnakt
» RE: You f**kin' busted me up Posted by: channing
» RE: Is this a joke? Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Is this a joke? Posted by: yellow
» That's beautiful!!! Posted by: xvictor
» RE: Interesting Info Posted by: LeaderofMen
» RE: Interesting Info Posted by: LillianB

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Check your head
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Nozka on Nov 26, 2008 1:36 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thanks for the nice article. I've been debating the right wing of my family my whole life, and it's an uphill battle, but I don't give up. What I try to remember is that it takes patience, tolerance, a sypathetic ear, and a good deal of humor to get through these evenings, but they're worth it. This article is right; the liberal viewpoint is rational - if liberal values are presented for what they really are, there are very few who will honestly profess to disagree. Cool minds will prevail. Leave your ego at the door, tell the real story, and enjoy your meal!

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» RE: Check your head Posted by: suprmark

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Disgusting Sectarianism. EMBRACE your neighbors and family this harvest.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: -matti on Nov 26, 2008 1:40 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I couldn't read beyond the first page, so I apologize if I am coming of "half-cocked".

But I do get so truly annoyed by the "alt-media"s stereotype of the "left" as urban and the "right" as rural.

Do the people that adhere to this notion simply fail to realize they are being manipulated?

Or do they gain some sick "satisfaction" from opposing themselves needlessly from their bretheren?

I suggest an alternative to this author's. I suggest that when you break bread with your (apparently "country-cousinish" stereotyped) family this Thanksgiving you seek to find your common bond with them.

Even if they have political views wholly divergent from yours, ask yourself not "How will I convince them?" but instead "Where is our point of divergence?".

This is the path to understanding, not "I know better than you".

Give up your preconceptions, O my dear Leftists. The "non-urban" population put your man over the hedge this November, the reasons why will take you quite awhile to comprehend.

If you are willing to listen to your stereotyped "country cousins" that is.

Otherwise you can approach the situation from the "I know better than you" position that the article apparently recommends.

Good luck and happy Feasting,

-matti.

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» RE: matti Posted by: Quannah
» Maybe You Just Don't Know Posted by: LeaderofMen

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Difference between so-called progressives and conservatives
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Bobsays on Nov 26, 2008 2:00 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The difference is simple: it is the difference between a world run by progressives (think of the 70s - we have been there!), and the 50s (a world run by conservatives, not neo-conservatives!).

The 70s: terrorism run wild - the weathermen, black panthers, Badder Meinhoff gang, the IRA, PLO, etc. etc. - crime gone wild - New York murder capital, cities going down the toilet, white flight, sexual mores out the window, rise of AIDS, STDs, broken homes, damaged people, etc. etc. Drug-addled zombies everywhere. Sure, you could strap on a pair of flares, walk two blocks from Times Square, and screw some strange woman against the wall. But it was also double-digit inflation, high unemployment, bad products, etc.

The 50s: social stability, safe streets and neighbourhoods, lots of jobs, great product design - in fact the best in the world, people looked healthy - few fatties, no AIDS, low drug abuse rates, net savers and richest in the world, people respected each other, people dressed well.

We sadly are now slipping back into the 70s. We are seeing the social and economic chaos of that time coming back. Sure, we have the funky squad now in the White House, but it is going to be hell for your average person on the street. Society needs a return to the values of the 50s, not the 70s.

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» Um ... yeah ... Posted by: realmuzik
» Where were you in the 50's? Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Where were you in the 50's? Posted by: aussidawg

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Fights
[Report this comment]
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Nov 26, 2008 3:14 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is a good article: Well thought out, and in nice bite-size pieces. If only I could say the same for my relatives' cooking...Heh...

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turkey day is always at our house sooooo......
[Report this comment]
Posted by: ellie on Nov 26, 2008 4:31 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
rule #1 is that if someone is really getting to you, either take it outside and get it over with (we're in our 50's and the oldest living generation now) or go get another pop, tranq (etc... your choice to fill in the blank here), or beer and let it go...

rule #2... do not 'weaponize' cutlery or other things that can break or be sharpened... when we were kids had one uncle stick a fork in the hand of another uncle over Regan and trickle down crap... sound familear???

our adult kids are the scary ones... don't break it up unless it's time to take it outside... see rule 1...

for kids kids, just take it outside and play PERIOD until it's time to eat...

generationally, it seems that grandparents and grandkids are more alike politically and our children are more conservative... their turn will come when they become grandparents...

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Conservatism.......prefers hierarchy to liberty....
[Report this comment]
Posted by: xvictor on Nov 26, 2008 4:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well, I somewhat disagree with that part. CONS like liberty, that is, freedom from paying their share of taxes. Or liberty from big government (that is, when they don't need bailout money from the gubmint').

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Fight the William F. Carling List
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Overburdened Planet on Nov 26, 2008 4:53 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I work in a conservative environment, and this list was sent to everyone by email. I'd like to see intelligent responses to this carling individual and even though the election is over, the debate isn't.


I'm voting Democrat because I'm way too irresponsible to own a gun, and I know that my local police are all I need to protect me from murderers and thieves.

I'm voting Democrat because I can now marry the one I love. I've decided to marry my horse.

I'm voting Democrat because I believe oil companies' profits of 4% on a gallon of gas are obscene but the liberal lead government taxing the same gallon of gas at 15% isn't.

I'm voting Democrat because I believe the government will do a better job of spending the money I earn than I would.

I'm voting Democrat because freedom of speech is fine as long as nobody is offended by it.

I'm voting Democrat because when we pull out of Iraq I trust that the bad guys will stop what they're doing because they now think we're good people.

I'm voting Democrat because I believe that people who can't tell us if it will rain on Friday can tell us that the polar ice caps will melt away in
ten years if I don't start driving a Prius.

I'm voting Democrat because I'm not concerned about the slaughter of millions of babies so long as we keep all death row inmates alive.

I'm voting Democrat because I believe that business should not be allowed to make profits for themselves. They need to break even and give the rest away to the government for any redistribution as they see fit.

I'm voting Democrat because I believe liberal judges need to rewrite the Constitution every few days to suit fringe groups who would never get their agendas past the voters.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own." - William F. Carling

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peaceful Thanksgiving
[Report this comment]
Posted by: littlepitcher on Nov 26, 2008 5:08 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It took me a full 50 years to declare independence from a denigrating family and their fighting holidays. Cooking Thanksgiving dinner for people with nowhere to go and no dinner waiting for them anywhere else is far more peaceful and more in the holiday spirit. It is impossible to conduct an effective conversation with the average lay conservative, so why waste time and effort?

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» RE: peaceful Thanksgiving Posted by: DanYHKim

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Toby Keith
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Posted by: Mamarianne on Nov 26, 2008 5:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To prepare yourself for sitting down with those who react rather than think, watch Toby Keith's disturbing video "I've Got a Present For You." This video contains violent images including the suggestion that Thomas Jefferson, the author of our Declaration of Independence, should have been beheaded. The theme of the video is the so called "war on Christmas." The video ends with the dig at the ACLU--the very organization that works to make sure that Keith and the rest of us have freedom of expression.

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» RE: Toby Keith Posted by: madmac10
» RE: Toby Keith Posted by: babs
» RE: Toby Keith Posted by: Mamarianne
» RE: Toby Keith Posted by: mountainmama

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There are no conservatives in my family, unless you say anti-war mentality saves lives!
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Nightstallion on Nov 26, 2008 5:53 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Then my family is conservative as hell. Any one who beleives conservativism is meant to save money INSTEAD OF LIVES, will not come through the door if they value their health.

I feed people who need to be fed, but if they come in and piss on the rug I throw their ass out. Nothing pisses on the rug like a GOP member unless it is a DemonRat with delusions of "I am always right" hood.

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Ya know I always knew people were illiterate but this is ridiculous.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Nightstallion on Nov 26, 2008 6:43 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You support talk about tolerance but when someone wants to maintain peace you shit on them. That isn't just disrespectful that is bone headed stupid. My house rules are simple leave your politics at the door or don't come through it into my house!

If you don't like it, knock the dust off your feet on the way out and don't let the door hit you in the ass. Simple, the only thing I am marginally thankful for on this day is quietude to reflect on reasons to stay here that are pleasurable and not connected with worldly concerns, you might even say I am Porcupine about this.

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Good talking points but there's more
[Report this comment]
Posted by: jgrossnas on Nov 26, 2008 6:55 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you have outspoken conservatives and political cynics in your family, you're more likely to hear them talk specifically about Obama. Here's a few things that would probably come up.

- "Obama's already becoming a Washington tool"

ANSWER: Other than choosing a cabinet, what has the President-Elect (emphasis that) actually enacted? Nothing. He can't by law. You're trying to grade him on an administration that hasn't begun yet.

- "The crappy economy is now his fault."

ANSWER: Really? So Bush hasn't been in charge for the last eight years and holds absolutely no responsibility at all for it? Going back to the point above, Obama is not allowed to enact policy now anyway. But notice that the market did bounce upward when he announced his economic team.

- "He only got in because everyone hates Bush."

ANSWER: Bush didn't hurt him but didn't McCain himself insist that if Obama wanted to run against Bush, he should have done so four years ago? Also, you don't hear McCain blame Bush for the loss (at least publicly). And also, do you think that McCain really ran such a great, tight, disciplined campaign that he deserved to be elected? Even GOP talking heads didn't think so.

- "He's going to screw up the world and make us look weak."

For the first point, didn't Bush actually do a pretty good job of that- alienating Europe, starting an un-necessary war and screwing up two countries that he tried to nation build. For the second point, notice in news coverage how many people overseas (not to mention a number of presidents and prime ministers!) were elated about O's win and the prospects for better relations with America. You think they would have said the same about McCain if he won?

- "He can't turn the economy around."

ANSWER: Even in the worst estimates, economists are saying that the current crisis will at least turn the corner before the next presidential election.

- "Palin will kick his butt in the next election."

ANSWER: Even with the calls for her to run already, there's still plenty of GOP people who are mad at her and not thrilled with her being the party's best hope (Kathleen Parker and Andrew Sullivan among them). In post-election interviews, she still comes across as a clueless dope and that kind of thing didn't exactly help McCain's campaign. If she pulls out William Ayers again, everyone's gonna yawn and laugh at her for trying to dredge that non-issue again and again. Plus, she's still got a lot to live down from the last election. And even if she does her homework in the next few years, the rest of the party isn't going to roll over and let her sail to the next convention. Romney will definitely be back and so will Rudy. Bobby Jindal is hungry for the job too. Four years is a long time too- even if she gets her book deal and does her tour, that doesn't mean she'll still be a media darling in '012.

- "The Dems are bound to screw things up and get the GOP elected next time."

ANSWER: You mean just like the GOP did in the last two elections? Eventually, the GOP will make a comeback but they'll fall again too. Politics is all about cycles.

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What I know I will hear
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Posted by: SteveO on Nov 26, 2008 6:56 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
#1 Obama is the Antichrist. (Then they will give me 10 signs that indicate he is the Antichrist)

#2 So, how come the stock market hasn't recovered? You got your Democratic president and congress.

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» RE: What I know I will hear Posted by: bookie
» RE: What I know I will hear Posted by: Lilykins
» RE: What I know I will hear Posted by: armorypk

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And Don't Forget FDR
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Lilly on Nov 26, 2008 7:17 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I hang around right-wing websites a lot so would like to suggest another point---be prepared to defend the New Deal, since in recent weeks the wingnuts are especially hot to tell us all why FDR and the New Deal failed and Hoover was brilliant.

But this is a wonderful guide. I'm going to print it out and keep it.

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I'm jellious of this exchange...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: MyLeftFoot on Nov 26, 2008 7:22 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I guess if you have no family members to argue with during the holidays you can do it right here. or is this just a practice run before the relatives show up?

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Sleeping with the enemy
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Louise laPlante on Nov 26, 2008 7:40 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My boyfriend is as far right as I am left. I am a social worker who is a war protesting, gay marriage supporting, pro-choice person...you get the picture. Needless to say I was drawn to this article and I did find many useful sentiments. But I know if I sent it to him he would not get past the first page without finding legitimate fault in the description of conservatives. I do find that he generalizes and describes liberals in an equally slanted way. I am learning to leave the emotion especially anger out of our discussions but it is very difficult for me. He has less trouble in this regard and loves to "debate". Anyway I love the topic but a little more concise would be great and some serious editing and perhaps have a conservative describe there own perspective rather than the writer's own tainted description. I appreciated the comment about finding the point of divergence. Happy Thanksgiving!!

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» I couldn't be with someone... Posted by: truthteller
» RE: Sleeping with the enemy Posted by: Ellie1
» RE: Sleeping with the enemy Posted by: Woodpecker
» RE: Sleeping with the enemy Posted by: munchkinpup

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#7 - liberals raise taxes
[Report this comment]
Posted by: grahamhgreen on Nov 26, 2008 8:01 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Best answer to this is:

INCREASING DEBT IS RAISING TAXES!!!

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» And so is speculative manipulation Posted by: paulmagillsmith

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THE FAMILY TREE
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Docent on Nov 26, 2008 8:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I consider myself lucky in belonging to a family tree which has no Republican branches!
My uncle was a democratic senator in Phoenix,
My cousins are democratic attorneys, my other
cousin is a medical doctor, and there are no
neocons hiding in the closet - or fanatic
religionists of any nature. I work for the democratic mayor of a large city and during this election, those 'friends' of mine who gave me lip about my liberal politics - have been stricken from my email roster and pushed out the back door of my "friends' list".

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» RE: THE FAMILY TREE Posted by: ranchero42
» RE: THE FAMILY TREE Posted by: Kodiak44
» RE: THE FAMILY TREE Posted by: mountainmama

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well said...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: mickeymaschke on Nov 26, 2008 8:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
all I can say is that this was truly a very well written article... BRAVO... well said...

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ATH
[Report this comment]
Posted by: ATH on Nov 26, 2008 9:52 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just want to know: How did this writer know I have Xanax and antacid in my travel
bag?
Also,I know we ALL make spelling mistakes sometimes, and even more typos; but some of
the spellings I've seen here are just embarassing. I mean, I know 8th graders who can
write more grammatically correct sentences and
know how to spell simple words like "jealous."
If you can find it, there's a very small paperback called "The Elements of Style," written by E.B. White, and another author whose name I can't remember.
It's an excellent guide when you're not sure whether to use, say, "there," or "their" or
"they're." These words are all pronounced exactly the same, but all have different meanings. Same thing with "its," and "it's"
Here's a good rule to follow: if it has an
apostrophe (') it is either indicating possession (not the demonic kind:)or, in the cases I've given here, indicates two words joined together, but with a letter missing.
For example, in a possessive sense, you would say, for instance: "This is Mark's ball." But
with the word "its," there is no apostrophe for
the possessive form. In other words, "The monster uses its claws as its main weapon."
"It's" with an apostrophe means "it is." For example, "it's a lovely day out."

With "there," "their," and "they're" it goes like this: "The ball is over there." or "There
is where we want to go."
"Their" is possessive. "It's their turn to
shoot."
And "they're" is the combination of they are. "They're going to the game, to see their
team. I will be there too."

As far as the liberal/conservative situation, I think it's very important to realize that conservatives have changed drastically. Neo-cons are not like the old
Republican party. Republicans are supposed to be fiscally conservative; yet neo-cons have been spending millions a day on a war that should never have been waged. Conservatives used to believe in small, limited government.
Along with the gutting of regulations,(which has played a MAJOR role in allowing the excesses that have destroyed our economy, our government has grown enormous under GOP rule.
I don't understand why older conservatives have kept faithful to a Party that has trashed
many of its core principles.
I thought this was a good article, over-all. It's very true that most Republicans have
a distorted view of Liberals, or Progressives,or whatever you want to call them.
But I also believe that the original Republican Party had many good ideas, and if it
had stuck to its original principles, then I
would think some of its ideas might be better
than liberal ones.
Personally, I would like to see a smaller
government that was fiscally conservative, but
that cut money from our defense budget, which
is larger than all the other major country's budgets combined, instead of cutting it from our much needed social programs.
Certain things should not be privatized; they should be run on a non-profit basis. I don't think many conservatives would like to go back to privatized FireFighting services. Firefighters used to be part of a private industry--that's where the whole thing with their different Seals and sigils come from. In the past, if you didn't have a certain Firefighter's Seal on your door,
they would just let your house burn. What about
libraries? Another great social service. Healthcare is another service that is too important to be privatized. Same with our military, which is simply very dangerous to do, and demoralizing to the rest of our real military.
So, as I said, I would like to see a
fiscally conservative but socially progressive
country--which is exactly for what our Constitution calls!

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» Thanks for the English lesson, ATH, but Posted by: paulmagillsmith
» RE: ATH Posted by: Obijuan
» RE: ATH Posted by: lauradahl
» RE: ATH Posted by: Dak

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The words "liberal", "conservative", and even to some extent "moderate" are BULLSHIT WORDS !
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Posted by: maxpayne on Nov 26, 2008 9:53 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Either we take gratitude seriously or we continue to be a bunch of ungrateful self-confident yankee bible-thumping gun-toting motherfuckers and give GOD more of a reason to PUNISH AMERICA.

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basically useless for dealing with right wingers
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Posted by: Morell on Nov 26, 2008 9:54 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The article is nicely written, but the right wingers will not let you make any of the points you make at such length. The points are too long and too rational to persuade your right wing relatives. You won't be able to get past the first dozen words before they interrupt you or tune you out. Your ideas and explanations are much too complex for their closed minds to follow. FDR knew this. All reformers know this. You can only fight slogans with slogans.

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» Rational Posted by: kepstein7777

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THE BEST!!!
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Posted by: mountainmama on Nov 26, 2008 10:02 AM   
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This, without a doubt, has to be the very best I've ever read on Alternet...or anywhere else...on the subject. On any subject! OMG, this woman deserves some kind of award for this. Bless you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is going to not only my like-minded friends and relatives but those who are conservative and fundamentalist!!!

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Holidays
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Posted by: Archie1954 on Nov 26, 2008 10:08 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Better yet do as I do and stay away from the conservative (Republican rightwing "Christian")holiday get togethers with the nutcases I must call family. I couldn't stand the George Bush love ins that I was made to endure everytime I visited the relatives in the US. Now If they want to see me and the nephews/grandkids they must visit us in Vancouver and I won't abide any Republican c**p at my dining room table. Sure at times I've left the table in a high dudgeon but I think they finally got the point, no more politics!

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Well, no worries here because I was disowned already for being an "evil liberal."
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Posted by: maddasein on Nov 26, 2008 10:42 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yep that's right. I no longer must suffer through the holidays which since my childhood have included fights with my elders to the point of screaming at times. Of course this is my father's side. I was raised by my extremely open minded mother (thank the flying spaghetti monster). Anytime I visited my other family for weekends, summer, holidays and the past decade as an adult they would always make fun of me for being different or weird. In all actuality I find myself to be pretty darn level headed and decent. Over recent years I tried to avoid conversational topics surrounding religion, politics, social issues or science... well really that left little for me to talk about, but I tried to no avail. So about a year and a half ago came the straw that broke the camel's back. My father called me a Muslim sympathizer who hates Christians. Then he accused me of being an elitist who thought that I was better than the rest of 'em. I just said that of course I KNEW that I was better than them because I have educated myself about the world and therefore can make good decisions in regards to the way I approach life and treat others. Right then he said that he never wanted to see me again. I rather surprisingly felt no sadness or loss... only relieved for the first time in my 29 years of life.

So my dear comrades I proclaim that family is comprised not just by blood relations but who you CHOOSE to love. I no longer feel that I should have to defend myself being so awesome... ha ha. Today I avoid uber conservatives because I absolutely abhor stress and negativity and really love happiness.

May peace be with you all. Happy Thanksgiving and merry Xmas, Hanuka, Kwanzaa, Solstice and Festivus!

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» Festivus Posted by: kepstein7777

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I got a topic that'll start a war at thanksgiving
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Posted by: popparook on Nov 26, 2008 11:27 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
it's here
http://noyoulistentome.blogspot.com

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Conservative Gaslighting
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Posted by: Libertine on Nov 26, 2008 11:28 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is probably one of the finest pieces I've ever read on Alternet. Thank you.

It has always busted my chops the way conservatives have tried to turn the meanings of such concepts of freedom, liberty, patriotism, and similar things on their heads and claim that they are the ones who are actually champions of such things, rather than liberals.

This article delivered a resounding rebuttal to such gaslighting nonsense.

I'll be bookmarking this one for further reference.

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Fantastic insight on how to deal with the propagandized
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Posted by: paulmagillsmith on Nov 26, 2008 11:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
among us. After years of studying & watching how conservativism has failed America I still can't comprehend why people still drink the poisonous Kool-Aide.

Wallet sized copies of this article hould be handed out on every street in America this holiday season. Kudos to you Sara Robinson for your sensibility backed up by the true facts.

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I'm thankful for this article.
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Posted by: Bliss Doubt on Nov 26, 2008 11:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's like Sara Robinson was writing just for me. I usually get through Thanksgiving, but I guess we drink more at Xmas. After a few years in a row with people getting mad, yelling invectives, calling names and stomping out of the gathering never to be seen again, over politics and absolutely nothing else, I now volunteer on Christmas day, all day. I never start the political discussions, but one or another of my darling wingnut siblings must always start pontificating from on high, and, though it may be my character flaw, I can't back down, nor can I just listen and smile. I love my family better when I don't see them.

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Who's messing with the food!
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Posted by: 2thepoint on Nov 26, 2008 11:52 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Conservatism, by contrast, tends to take a dim view of human nature,""

interesting, isn't it the far left that sees evil in all things. America is the great devil, all corporations are bad (except the ones they work for), conservatives are evil etc..etc.

Since I'm having thanksgiving at my VERY FAR LEFT sister in laws house, I'm considering bringing a food taster with me.. Maybe her dog will do!

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Losing Proposition
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Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Nov 26, 2008 11:59 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why pigeonhole yourself? Every single one of those points can be taken and turned around and used against so-called "conservatives". (Mainstream war-loving Bush-voting conservatives anyway.)

It is the corrupt system that attempts to divide people into two camps. That system is the real enemy. That system is what creates thousands of media personalities whose sole purpose is to propagate the false left/right paradigm. Instead of arguing with people on thanksgiving, tell them to google

c-realm podcast #129

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Language Matters
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Posted by: DaBear on Nov 26, 2008 12:45 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My only beef with Sara's excellent simplification is that she confuses liberals with progressives. They aren't the same and people who continually confuse the two as if they are the same are mucking up the process of holding Obama's feet to the fire and presenting a clear-headed rebuttal to conservative mythos.

But hey, who cares about language in 'Merkuh, land of the eddicated. People who are slack with their terminology often contribute to the mess far more than they help clear it up.

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Liberals Hate America
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Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on Nov 26, 2008 12:50 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It probably won't happen, but I'd like to see liberals all around the country put on flag-pins on January 20, the day that Obama takes office. We can then ask all of our conservative friends and relatives why they aren't wearing their flag pins; why aren't they patriotic?

I am quite serious about this. For one thing we need to take back our flag, but it also is a good opportunity to bring up this topic in some circumstance other than when American bombs are dropping on some unfortunate country.

Ideally, the flag-pins would be union made and have a slightly different design than the ones we are accustomed to seeing. Perhaps a banner saying By the People and For the People.

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» RE: Liberals Hate America Posted by: Obijuan

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Stanimal
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Posted by: drfun on Nov 26, 2008 1:48 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Good article and would like to add that the GOP "Greed & Oppression Party" love to blowviate about their "Family Values" wife and political party swapping, snitch, B rated senile sap Ronald Reagan.

Who called Saddam Hussein and Osma bin Laden "Freedom Fighter's" the Republicans have re-labeled "Terrorist's".

That supported Al-CIAda in the 80's while fomenting Treason with the Iran-Contra weapons for cocaine scandle.

Bloating the size of government and its run-a-way deficit spending that your great grandchildren of "Loved Ones" will still only be paying a fraction of the interest of the total accrued debt. Declaring that "Deficit's Don't Matter", go figure?

Busting the FAA controllers Union and championing deregulation that have fostered the S & L scandle, Junk Bonds, then followed the dot.com bust, Sup-Prime, CDO's and finally the 700 +billion $ bailout to reward golden parachutes to the very "Financial Wizards" who deserve prison instead.

Supporting the self-appointed Bu$h cabal, and its multitudes of Felons from the Reagan regime in its ranks.

Such leadership from a AWOL/Deserter, convicted drunk driver who refuses to
disclose the last time he's done cocaine, and his multi-convicted drunk driving, 5 time Vietnam deferred, who demanded union wage concessions then stole the $'s as his bonus Buckshot Dick.

And the road show of the Henry Hyde "Youthful Indiscretions" Livingston/Gingrich/Barr/McCain multiple marriage infidelities, Foley Congressional page exploits, and Craig bathroom shenanigans.

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Pie
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Posted by: go on Nov 26, 2008 3:22 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yummy yummy, aggregation of power and money, good for everyone. Ok you have a pie, someone takes takes a big slice there is less for everyone else. I like less pie for me and more pie for whoever already has alot of pie. It's a great system unless you are unlucky then you may have to resort to eating your own feet. "No pie for you!"

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what is this thanksgiving crap anyway-to thanks for saving the english pirates scum bags -pilgrim???
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Posted by: avatar_singh on Nov 26, 2008 5:47 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
this thanksgiving day is a shame tyo perpetuyate the memory of those enlgish pirates who came to american shore in early 1600s-did they lose the way to pilgrim>after all jerusalem was and still is east to pymouth not west.
no -they awere english abstrds who were racists and very pirates in essence and were the scum of the earth-their arival in america is celebrated by the americans most of who have no ebnglish or british ancestry-in fact moere than 60% of americans are not of anglosaxon descent but in name of whote e=versues balck and other crap the aenglish derived scum bags have maninted their illgotten power in america so much that amerc=ica celebreates this crap thankgivintg more than the 4th of july.
so called white supremacists are nothing but engliahs scum bags and their agents-they donto like germans irish, frewnch or scandinavions either-who are more white than these english derived scum bags.

===================

How britain got hold on america after american independence-- --- This all started soon after Napoleonic war when in 1816 to 1817 The english again attacked america in her southern flanks and the day was saved only because of some French navy mercenaries and French speaking population of Louisiana and such states along with non-english origin americans. But the english invaders infiltrated among that population of the south of USA which today calls itself bible belt (whose god has always been english royalty and who worship only stolen money).By 1850 to 1860 England attacked erstwhile friend (in Napoleonic war) Russia in Crimea along with erstwhile foe (now controlled by unpopular english stooge) France.-how the same pattern is so predictable in case of this intrusive, cancerous exploitative race called english and anglo saxons. At that very time England was actively supporting the slave exploitation, in fact all the big plantation owners were english derived and they owned loyalty not to flag of United states of america but to England. -in other words they were agents of foreign country who wanted to keep south america occupy as foreign power again. The civil war in america was not only supported with money and arms by england but rather england was the instigator of american civil war in order to keep whole of america enslaved and if not possible at least those parts (South) where it could call upon filial loyalty. It was truly a war of race-not against whites and blacks but against anglo saxons versus blacks, Irish, other European peoples .The same would be repeated in future. The confederacy was a traitor to america-a british agents; but ironically that same confederacy flag today is being propagandised by their descendents as symbol of american independence and patriotism. Having lost the proxy war england resorted to the one thing it specialises-terrorism and misinformation. Abraham Lincoln was murdered by the person very sympathetic to british cause. (against Napoleon england had sent several terrorist squads-that is why Napoleon had to declare Himself an Emperor to maintain the clear line of succession to protect glorious French Revolution). It is very interesting that most of the american presidents assassinated were those whom England did not want being elected. By the end of civil war ,instead of disinfranchasising the british supporters (of southern states) and taking away their land or at least redistributing evenly the stolen land, the american govt. was persuaded by britain to spare them and let those southern traitors keep all the stolen land so that drug (tobacco) and cotton would be of assured supply to england. Of course by that time because of fall of Napoleon (brought about not by military might but by conspiracy to embroil the Europeans among each other( conspiracy hatched in London-that was the only english contribution to napoleons' fall-forget waterloo where Austrians and Prussians had contributed most militarily):consequently

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Two party system insuffcient and constricting for voters
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Posted by: floridahank on Nov 26, 2008 6:32 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How can 2 parties offer the best answers for
a nation of 300 million people? Look over this
article and let me know what you think.

THE TWO party system in the United States is outdated and is a failure. It is a rare thing that the Republicans and Democrats preach and talk about human rights in the world while other political parties are actively excluded and marginalised by the mainstream media and the establishment. The Republicans and Democrats are proving themselves to be old fashioned, childish, arrogant about the needs of the people, the fact that housing and Insurance are becoming increasingly expensive, and that people are not voting since the elections are arranged in favour of the Republicans and Democrats.

Who can forget how the city of San Francisco threatened members of the Green Party with loss of job if they voted Green during the 2000 elections?

Who can forget how the secretary of state of Ohio nullified 57,000 signatures on a petition by the Libertarian Party to present Michael Badnarik on the ballot in 2004?

Who can forget how in the state of Ohio, in the final hours of the 2004 elections, there was the existence of threats to alternative parties?

Who can forget how in the year 2006, the Republican candidate for governor of Illinois refused to debate with a member of the Green Party present in Illinois Public Television?

Who can forget the refusal of Republicans and Democrats to debate Libertarians and Greens in televised debates in Ohio in 2006?

Why did North Carolina use extra-legal means to keep the Libertarian Party from being on the ballot?

The Republicans and Democrats are afraid of alternative parties since they are the harbingers of war, hatred, and a system that is being discredited by the minute. Even the almighty Dollar has fallen with the Euro being used in many countries such as Iran and Qatar. It is easy to hide behind the ivory tower that is Washington DC and say “nothing is happening.” It is easy to hide behind the laws that govern elections (that are discriminatory) and an Electoral College, that outlived its usefulness.

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Article needs a surgeon general's warning
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Posted by: PaulD on Nov 26, 2008 8:13 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Conservatives have nothing to fear from people who take this article to heart. The liberals will all be at home nursing paraplegia from patting themselves so vigorously on the back.

(Sigh) So many openings, so little time.

Let's take Social Security. Please. If the amount coerced from employers and employees were invested in the evil capitalist stock market over the course of a working lifetime, retirees would be far better off financially. Even a liberals love their 401(K)s.

(Full disclosure: In the interests of a fair and balanced examination of the issues, Alternet discourages participants from responding to "conservative talking points".)

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» Maybe this is why Posted by: PaulD
» RE: Maybe this is why Posted by: wal55
» RE: Maybe this is why Posted by: PaulD
» Wal55... Posted by: PaulD
» RE: Wal55... Posted by: wal55

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Just sad
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Posted by: FreeAmerica on Nov 27, 2008 8:37 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would love it if my super lib brother wanted to debate me based on this ridiculous list of inaccuracies, stereotypes, and outright blather.

It is no wonder that you hate debating with your 'lesser' relatives. Armed with ideas like these, you would be easy pickin's at my table.

As far as the enlightened that want to print this out for future reference..

You really should get your history talking points from someplace other than this article. Perhaps an older American history book would be a good start.

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So far, we're not seeing much change in voter registration
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Posted by: PaulD on Nov 28, 2008 12:50 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So how'd it go when you trotted out the article's talking points? Are your families closer now?

Or did they just ask you what was in that folded paper you were trying to hide?

Did you successfully reduce Mom and Dad to embarrassed silence in front of the whole family?

Or are they all loving new converts to progressivism now, holding hands around the Obama portrait and thanking you for opening their eyes?

And are they looking forward to a repeat performance at Christmas?

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Now That The Thanksgiving is Over...
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Posted by: MyLeftFoot on Nov 29, 2008 5:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
this study came in. Enjoy...

http://www.theonion.com/content/news /study_finds_link_between_red_wine

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Markht
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Posted by: Markht on Nov 30, 2008 9:58 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This was just the sort of hysterical comedy that makes my day.
The authoress has clearly swallowed the liberal kool aid!

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One Thing NOT To Point Out To Conservatives
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Posted by: armorypk on Nov 30, 2008 12:06 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Undeniable fact:
Among the world's greatest artists, musicians, authors, comedians and actors, nearly all are political progressives. By definition, conservatives are not creative people.

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Actually, let's compare the 80's to the 90's, and...
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Posted by: jimidee on Nov 30, 2008 7:27 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the 90's to the 2000-08. That is a much more pertinent comparo.

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Love of country......
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Posted by: tap17x on Dec 7, 2008 11:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
.......is manifested much better by liberals than by conservatives. Conservatives will accept any behavior by the US so long as it favors their interests. Liberals hold out for civilized and generous behavior. Whose ideals are better?

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Alternet Comments:

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Corinne573
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Posted by: corinne122 on Nov 26, 2008 1:15 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Beautiful piece! I'm sending this to all my friends. Thank you!

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» RE: Corinne573 Posted by: popparook

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Interesting Info
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Posted by: Setnakt on Nov 26, 2008 1:21 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And good to know in general. However I'm THRILLED that when my relatives arrive I'll need none of it! We have no "black sheep" in our family were ALL black sheep. No Republicans, no Neocons and (thank the gods) NO Christians of any variaty whatsoever. I'm looking forward to another wonderful and harmonious Thanksgiving (and Yule and the New Year thearafter). Happy Holidays all (or maybe not for some).

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» Is this a joke? Posted by: -matti
» RE: Is this a joke? Posted by: Setnakt
» RE: You f**kin' busted me up Posted by: channing
» RE: Is this a joke? Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Is this a joke? Posted by: yellow
» That's beautiful!!! Posted by: xvictor
» RE: Interesting Info Posted by: LeaderofMen
» RE: Interesting Info Posted by: LillianB

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Check your head
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Posted by: Nozka on Nov 26, 2008 1:36 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thanks for the nice article. I've been debating the right wing of my family my whole life, and it's an uphill battle, but I don't give up. What I try to remember is that it takes patience, tolerance, a sypathetic ear, and a good deal of humor to get through these evenings, but they're worth it. This article is right; the liberal viewpoint is rational - if liberal values are presented for what they really are, there are very few who will honestly profess to disagree. Cool minds will prevail. Leave your ego at the door, tell the real story, and enjoy your meal!

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» RE: Check your head Posted by: suprmark

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Disgusting Sectarianism. EMBRACE your neighbors and family this harvest.
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Posted by: -matti on Nov 26, 2008 1:40 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I couldn't read beyond the first page, so I apologize if I am coming of "half-cocked".

But I do get so truly annoyed by the "alt-media"s stereotype of the "left" as urban and the "right" as rural.

Do the people that adhere to this notion simply fail to realize they are being manipulated?

Or do they gain some sick "satisfaction" from opposing themselves needlessly from their bretheren?

I suggest an alternative to this author's. I suggest that when you break bread with your (apparently "country-cousinish" stereotyped) family this Thanksgiving you seek to find your common bond with them.

Even if they have political views wholly divergent from yours, ask yourself not "How will I convince them?" but instead "Where is our point of divergence?".

This is the path to understanding, not "I know better than you".

Give up your preconceptions, O my dear Leftists. The "non-urban" population put your man over the hedge this November, the reasons why will take you quite awhile to comprehend.

If you are willing to listen to your stereotyped "country cousins" that is.

Otherwise you can approach the situation from the "I know better than you" position that the article apparently recommends.

Good luck and happy Feasting,

-matti.

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» RE: matti Posted by: Quannah
» Maybe You Just Don't Know Posted by: LeaderofMen

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Difference between so-called progressives and conservatives
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Posted by: Bobsays on Nov 26, 2008 2:00 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The difference is simple: it is the difference between a world run by progressives (think of the 70s - we have been there!), and the 50s (a world run by conservatives, not neo-conservatives!).

The 70s: terrorism run wild - the weathermen, black panthers, Badder Meinhoff gang, the IRA, PLO, etc. etc. - crime gone wild - New York murder capital, cities going down the toilet, white flight, sexual mores out the window, rise of AIDS, STDs, broken homes, damaged people, etc. etc. Drug-addled zombies everywhere. Sure, you could strap on a pair of flares, walk two blocks from Times Square, and screw some strange woman against the wall. But it was also double-digit inflation, high unemployment, bad products, etc.

The 50s: social stability, safe streets and neighbourhoods, lots of jobs, great product design - in fact the best in the world, people looked healthy - few fatties, no AIDS, low drug abuse rates, net savers and richest in the world, people respected each other, people dressed well.

We sadly are now slipping back into the 70s. We are seeing the social and economic chaos of that time coming back. Sure, we have the funky squad now in the White House, but it is going to be hell for your average person on the street. Society needs a return to the values of the 50s, not the 70s.

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» Um ... yeah ... Posted by: realmuzik
» Where were you in the 50's? Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Where were you in the 50's? Posted by: aussidawg

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Fights
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Nov 26, 2008 3:14 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is a good article: Well thought out, and in nice bite-size pieces. If only I could say the same for my relatives' cooking...Heh...

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turkey day is always at our house sooooo......
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Posted by: ellie on Nov 26, 2008 4:31 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
rule #1 is that if someone is really getting to you, either take it outside and get it over with (we're in our 50's and the oldest living generation now) or go get another pop, tranq (etc... your choice to fill in the blank here), or beer and let it go...

rule #2... do not 'weaponize' cutlery or other things that can break or be sharpened... when we were kids had one uncle stick a fork in the hand of another uncle over Regan and trickle down crap... sound familear???

our adult kids are the scary ones... don't break it up unless it's time to take it outside... see rule 1...

for kids kids, just take it outside and play PERIOD until it's time to eat...

generationally, it seems that grandparents and grandkids are more alike politically and our children are more conservative... their turn will come when they become grandparents...

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Conservatism.......prefers hierarchy to liberty....
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Posted by: xvictor on Nov 26, 2008 4:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well, I somewhat disagree with that part. CONS like liberty, that is, freedom from paying their share of taxes. Or liberty from big government (that is, when they don't need bailout money from the gubmint').

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Fight the William F. Carling List
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Posted by: Overburdened Planet on Nov 26, 2008 4:53 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I work in a conservative environment, and this list was sent to everyone by email. I'd like to see intelligent responses to this carling individual and even though the election is over, the debate isn't.


I'm voting Democrat because I'm way too irresponsible to own a gun, and I know that my local police are all I need to protect me from murderers and thieves.

I'm voting Democrat because I can now marry the one I love. I've decided to marry my horse.

I'm voting Democrat because I believe oil companies' profits of 4% on a gallon of gas are obscene but the liberal lead government taxing the same gallon of gas at 15% isn't.

I'm voting Democrat because I believe the government will do a better job of spending the money I earn than I would.

I'm voting Democrat because freedom of speech is fine as long as nobody is offended by it.

I'm voting Democrat because when we pull out of Iraq I trust that the bad guys will stop what they're doing because they now think we're good people.

I'm voting Democrat because I believe that people who can't tell us if it will rain on Friday can tell us that the polar ice caps will melt away in
ten years if I don't start driving a Prius.

I'm voting Democrat because I'm not concerned about the slaughter of millions of babies so long as we keep all death row inmates alive.

I'm voting Democrat because I believe that business should not be allowed to make profits for themselves. They need to break even and give the rest away to the government for any redistribution as they see fit.

I'm voting Democrat because I believe liberal judges need to rewrite the Constitution every few days to suit fringe groups who would never get their agendas past the voters.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own." - William F. Carling

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peaceful Thanksgiving
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Posted by: littlepitcher on Nov 26, 2008 5:08 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It took me a full 50 years to declare independence from a denigrating family and their fighting holidays. Cooking Thanksgiving dinner for people with nowhere to go and no dinner waiting for them anywhere else is far more peaceful and more in the holiday spirit. It is impossible to conduct an effective conversation with the average lay conservative, so why waste time and effort?

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» RE: peaceful Thanksgiving Posted by: DanYHKim

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Toby Keith
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Posted by: Mamarianne on Nov 26, 2008 5:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To prepare yourself for sitting down with those who react rather than think, watch Toby Keith's disturbing video "I've Got a Present For You." This video contains violent images including the suggestion that Thomas Jefferson, the author of our Declaration of Independence, should have been beheaded. The theme of the video is the so called "war on Christmas." The video ends with the dig at the ACLU--the very organization that works to make sure that Keith and the rest of us have freedom of expression.

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» RE: Toby Keith Posted by: madmac10
» RE: Toby Keith Posted by: babs
» RE: Toby Keith Posted by: Mamarianne
» RE: Toby Keith Posted by: mountainmama

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There are no conservatives in my family, unless you say anti-war mentality saves lives!
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Posted by: Nightstallion on Nov 26, 2008 5:53 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Then my family is conservative as hell. Any one who beleives conservativism is meant to save money INSTEAD OF LIVES, will not come through the door if they value their health.

I feed people who need to be fed, but if they come in and piss on the rug I throw their ass out. Nothing pisses on the rug like a GOP member unless it is a DemonRat with delusions of "I am always right" hood.

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Ya know I always knew people were illiterate but this is ridiculous.
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Posted by: Nightstallion on Nov 26, 2008 6:43 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You support talk about tolerance but when someone wants to maintain peace you shit on them. That isn't just disrespectful that is bone headed stupid. My house rules are simple leave your politics at the door or don't come through it into my house!

If you don't like it, knock the dust off your feet on the way out and don't let the door hit you in the ass. Simple, the only thing I am marginally thankful for on this day is quietude to reflect on reasons to stay here that are pleasurable and not connected with worldly concerns, you might even say I am Porcupine about this.

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Good talking points but there's more
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Posted by: jgrossnas on Nov 26, 2008 6:55 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you have outspoken conservatives and political cynics in your family, you're more likely to hear them talk specifically about Obama. Here's a few things that would probably come up.

- "Obama's already becoming a Washington tool"

ANSWER: Other than choosing a cabinet, what has the President-Elect (emphasis that) actually enacted? Nothing. He can't by law. You're trying to grade him on an administration that hasn't begun yet.

- "The crappy economy is now his fault."

ANSWER: Really? So Bush hasn't been in charge for the last eight years and holds absolutely no responsibility at all for it? Going back to the point above, Obama is not allowed to enact policy now anyway. But notice that the market did bounce upward when he announced his economic team.

- "He only got in because everyone hates Bush."

ANSWER: Bush didn't hurt him but didn't McCain himself insist that if Obama wanted to run against Bush, he should have done so four years ago? Also, you don't hear McCain blame Bush for the loss (at least publicly). And also, do you think that McCain really ran such a great, tight, disciplined campaign that he deserved to be elected? Even GOP talking heads didn't think so.

- "He's going to screw up the world and make us look weak."

For the first point, didn't Bush actually do a pretty good job of that- alienating Europe, starting an un-necessary war and screwing up two countries that he tried to nation build. For the second point, notice in news coverage how many people overseas (not to mention a number of presidents and prime ministers!) were elated about O's win and the prospects for better relations with America. You think they would have said the same about McCain if he won?

- "He can't turn the economy around."

ANSWER: Even in the worst estimates, economists are saying that the current crisis will at least turn the corner before the next presidential election.

- "Palin will kick his butt in the next election."

ANSWER: Even with the calls for her to run already, there's still plenty of GOP people who are mad at her and not thrilled with her being the party's best hope (Kathleen Parker and Andrew Sullivan among them). In post-election interviews, she still comes across as a clueless dope and that kind of thing didn't exactly help McCain's campaign. If she pulls out William Ayers again, everyone's gonna yawn and laugh at her for trying to dredge that non-issue again and again. Plus, she's still got a lot to live down from the last election. And even if she does her homework in the next few years, the rest of the party isn't going to roll over and let her sail to the next convention. Romney will definitely be back and so will Rudy. Bobby Jindal is hungry for the job too. Four years is a long time too- even if she gets her book deal and does her tour, that doesn't mean she'll still be a media darling in '012.

- "The Dems are bound to screw things up and get the GOP elected next time."

ANSWER: You mean just like the GOP did in the last two elections? Eventually, the GOP will make a comeback but they'll fall again too. Politics is all about cycles.

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What I know I will hear
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Posted by: SteveO on Nov 26, 2008 6:56 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
#1 Obama is the Antichrist. (Then they will give me 10 signs that indicate he is the Antichrist)

#2 So, how come the stock market hasn't recovered? You got your Democratic president and congress.

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» RE: What I know I will hear Posted by: bookie
» RE: What I know I will hear Posted by: Lilykins
» RE: What I know I will hear Posted by: armorypk

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And Don't Forget FDR
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Posted by: Lilly on Nov 26, 2008 7:17 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I hang around right-wing websites a lot so would like to suggest another point---be prepared to defend the New Deal, since in recent weeks the wingnuts are especially hot to tell us all why FDR and the New Deal failed and Hoover was brilliant.

But this is a wonderful guide. I'm going to print it out and keep it.

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I'm jellious of this exchange...
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Posted by: MyLeftFoot on Nov 26, 2008 7:22 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I guess if you have no family members to argue with during the holidays you can do it right here. or is this just a practice run before the relatives show up?

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Sleeping with the enemy
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Posted by: Louise laPlante on Nov 26, 2008 7:40 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My boyfriend is as far right as I am left. I am a social worker who is a war protesting, gay marriage supporting, pro-choice person...you get the picture. Needless to say I was drawn to this article and I did find many useful sentiments. But I know if I sent it to him he would not get past the first page without finding legitimate fault in the description of conservatives. I do find that he generalizes and describes liberals in an equally slanted way. I am learning to leave the emotion especially anger out of our discussions but it is very difficult for me. He has less trouble in this regard and loves to "debate". Anyway I love the topic but a little more concise would be great and some serious editing and perhaps have a conservative describe there own perspective rather than the writer's own tainted description. I appreciated the comment about finding the point of divergence. Happy Thanksgiving!!

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» I couldn't be with someone... Posted by: truthteller
» RE: Sleeping with the enemy Posted by: Ellie1
» RE: Sleeping with the enemy Posted by: Woodpecker
» RE: Sleeping with the enemy Posted by: munchkinpup

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#7 - liberals raise taxes
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Posted by: grahamhgreen on Nov 26, 2008 8:01 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Best answer to this is:

INCREASING DEBT IS RAISING TAXES!!!

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» And so is speculative manipulation Posted by: paulmagillsmith

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THE FAMILY TREE
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Posted by: Docent on Nov 26, 2008 8:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I consider myself lucky in belonging to a family tree which has no Republican branches!
My uncle was a democratic senator in Phoenix,
My cousins are democratic attorneys, my other
cousin is a medical doctor, and there are no
neocons hiding in the closet - or fanatic
religionists of any nature. I work for the democratic mayor of a large city and during this election, those 'friends' of mine who gave me lip about my liberal politics - have been stricken from my email roster and pushed out the back door of my "friends' list".

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» RE: THE FAMILY TREE Posted by: ranchero42
» RE: THE FAMILY TREE Posted by: Kodiak44
» RE: THE FAMILY TREE Posted by: mountainmama

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well said...
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Posted by: mickeymaschke on Nov 26, 2008 8:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
all I can say is that this was truly a very well written article... BRAVO... well said...

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ATH
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Posted by: ATH on Nov 26, 2008 9:52 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just want to know: How did this writer know I have Xanax and antacid in my travel
bag?
Also,I know we ALL make spelling mistakes sometimes, and even more typos; but some of
the spellings I've seen here are just embarassing. I mean, I know 8th graders who can
write more grammatically correct sentences and
know how to spell simple words like "jealous."
If you can find it, there's a very small paperback called "The Elements of Style," written by E.B. White, and another author whose name I can't remember.
It's an excellent guide when you're not sure whether to use, say, "there," or "their" or
"they're." These words are all pronounced exactly the same, but all have different meanings. Same thing with "its," and "it's"
Here's a good rule to follow: if it has an
apostrophe (') it is either indicating possession (not the demonic kind:)or, in the cases I've given here, indicates two words joined together, but with a letter missing.
For example, in a possessive sense, you would say, for instance: "This is Mark's ball." But
with the word "its," there is no apostrophe for
the possessive form. In other words, "The monster uses its claws as its main weapon."
"It's" with an apostrophe means "it is." For example, "it's a lovely day out."

With "there," "their," and "they're" it goes like this: "The ball is over there." or "There
is where we want to go."
"Their" is possessive. "It's their turn to
shoot."
And "they're" is the combination of they are. "They're going to the game, to see their
team. I will be there too."

As far as the liberal/conservative situation, I think it's very important to realize that conservatives have changed drastically. Neo-cons are not like the old
Republican party. Republicans are supposed to be fiscally conservative; yet neo-cons have been spending millions a day on a war that should never have been waged. Conservatives used to believe in small, limited government.
Along with the gutting of regulations,(which has played a MAJOR role in allowing the excesses that have destroyed our economy, our government has grown enormous under GOP rule.
I don't understand why older conservatives have kept faithful to a Party that has trashed
many of its core principles.
I thought this was a good article, over-all. It's very true that most Republicans have
a distorted view of Liberals, or Progressives,or whatever you want to call them.
But I also believe that the original Republican Party had many good ideas, and if it
had stuck to its original principles, then I
would think some of its ideas might be better
than liberal ones.
Personally, I would like to see a smaller
government that was fiscally conservative, but
that cut money from our defense budget, which
is larger than all the other major country's budgets combined, instead of cutting it from our much needed social programs.
Certain things should not be privatized; they should be run on a non-profit basis. I don't think many conservatives would like to go back to privatized FireFighting services. Firefighters used to be part of a private industry--that's where the whole thing with their different Seals and sigils come from. In the past, if you didn't have a certain Firefighter's Seal on your door,
they would just let your house burn. What about
libraries? Another great social service. Healthcare is another service that is too important to be privatized. Same with our military, which is simply very dangerous to do, and demoralizing to the rest of our real military.
So, as I said, I would like to see a
fiscally conservative but socially progressive
country--which is exactly for what our Constitution calls!

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» Thanks for the English lesson, ATH, but Posted by: paulmagillsmith
» RE: ATH Posted by: Obijuan
» RE: ATH Posted by: lauradahl
» RE: ATH Posted by: Dak

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The words "liberal", "conservative", and even to some extent "moderate" are BULLSHIT WORDS !
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Posted by: maxpayne on Nov 26, 2008 9:53 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Either we take gratitude seriously or we continue to be a bunch of ungrateful self-confident yankee bible-thumping gun-toting motherfuckers and give GOD more of a reason to PUNISH AMERICA.

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basically useless for dealing with right wingers
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Posted by: Morell on Nov 26, 2008 9:54 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The article is nicely written, but the right wingers will not let you make any of the points you make at such length. The points are too long and too rational to persuade your right wing relatives. You won't be able to get past the first dozen words before they interrupt you or tune you out. Your ideas and explanations are much too complex for their closed minds to follow. FDR knew this. All reformers know this. You can only fight slogans with slogans.

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» Rational Posted by: kepstein7777

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THE BEST!!!
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Posted by: mountainmama on Nov 26, 2008 10:02 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This, without a doubt, has to be the very best I've ever read on Alternet...or anywhere else...on the subject. On any subject! OMG, this woman deserves some kind of award for this. Bless you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is going to not only my like-minded friends and relatives but those who are conservative and fundamentalist!!!

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Holidays
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Posted by: Archie1954 on Nov 26, 2008 10:08 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Better yet do as I do and stay away from the conservative (Republican rightwing "Christian")holiday get togethers with the nutcases I must call family. I couldn't stand the George Bush love ins that I was made to endure everytime I visited the relatives in the US. Now If they want to see me and the nephews/grandkids they must visit us in Vancouver and I won't abide any Republican c**p at my dining room table. Sure at times I've left the table in a high dudgeon but I think they finally got the point, no more politics!

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Well, no worries here because I was disowned already for being an "evil liberal."
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Posted by: maddasein on Nov 26, 2008 10:42 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yep that's right. I no longer must suffer through the holidays which since my childhood have included fights with my elders to the point of screaming at times. Of course this is my father's side. I was raised by my extremely open minded mother (thank the flying spaghetti monster). Anytime I visited my other family for weekends, summer, holidays and the past decade as an adult they would always make fun of me for being different or weird. In all actuality I find myself to be pretty darn level headed and decent. Over recent years I tried to avoid conversational topics surrounding religion, politics, social issues or science... well really that left little for me to talk about, but I tried to no avail. So about a year and a half ago came the straw that broke the camel's back. My father called me a Muslim sympathizer who hates Christians. Then he accused me of being an elitist who thought that I was better than the rest of 'em. I just said that of course I KNEW that I was better than them because I have educated myself about the world and therefore can make good decisions in regards to the way I approach life and treat others. Right then he said that he never wanted to see me again. I rather surprisingly felt no sadness or loss... only relieved for the first time in my 29 years of life.

So my dear comrades I proclaim that family is comprised not just by blood relations but who you CHOOSE to love. I no longer feel that I should have to defend myself being so awesome... ha ha. Today I avoid uber conservatives because I absolutely abhor stress and negativity and really love happiness.

May peace be with you all. Happy Thanksgiving and merry Xmas, Hanuka, Kwanzaa, Solstice and Festivus!

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» Festivus Posted by: kepstein7777

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I got a topic that'll start a war at thanksgiving
[Report this comment]
Posted by: popparook on Nov 26, 2008 11:27 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
it's here
http://noyoulistentome.blogspot.com

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Conservative Gaslighting
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Posted by: Libertine on Nov 26, 2008 11:28 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is probably one of the finest pieces I've ever read on Alternet. Thank you.

It has always busted my chops the way conservatives have tried to turn the meanings of such concepts of freedom, liberty, patriotism, and similar things on their heads and claim that they are the ones who are actually champions of such things, rather than liberals.

This article delivered a resounding rebuttal to such gaslighting nonsense.

I'll be bookmarking this one for further reference.

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Fantastic insight on how to deal with the propagandized
[Report this comment]
Posted by: paulmagillsmith on Nov 26, 2008 11:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
among us. After years of studying & watching how conservativism has failed America I still can't comprehend why people still drink the poisonous Kool-Aide.

Wallet sized copies of this article hould be handed out on every street in America this holiday season. Kudos to you Sara Robinson for your sensibility backed up by the true facts.

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I'm thankful for this article.
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Posted by: Bliss Doubt on Nov 26, 2008 11:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's like Sara Robinson was writing just for me. I usually get through Thanksgiving, but I guess we drink more at Xmas. After a few years in a row with people getting mad, yelling invectives, calling names and stomping out of the gathering never to be seen again, over politics and absolutely nothing else, I now volunteer on Christmas day, all day. I never start the political discussions, but one or another of my darling wingnut siblings must always start pontificating from on high, and, though it may be my character flaw, I can't back down, nor can I just listen and smile. I love my family better when I don't see them.

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Who's messing with the food!
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Posted by: 2thepoint on Nov 26, 2008 11:52 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Conservatism, by contrast, tends to take a dim view of human nature,""

interesting, isn't it the far left that sees evil in all things. America is the great devil, all corporations are bad (except the ones they work for), conservatives are evil etc..etc.

Since I'm having thanksgiving at my VERY FAR LEFT sister in laws house, I'm considering bringing a food taster with me.. Maybe her dog will do!

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Losing Proposition
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Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Nov 26, 2008 11:59 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why pigeonhole yourself? Every single one of those points can be taken and turned around and used against so-called "conservatives". (Mainstream war-loving Bush-voting conservatives anyway.)

It is the corrupt system that attempts to divide people into two camps. That system is the real enemy. That system is what creates thousands of media personalities whose sole purpose is to propagate the false left/right paradigm. Instead of arguing with people on thanksgiving, tell them to google

c-realm podcast #129

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Language Matters
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Posted by: DaBear on Nov 26, 2008 12:45 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My only beef with Sara's excellent simplification is that she confuses liberals with progressives. They aren't the same and people who continually confuse the two as if they are the same are mucking up the process of holding Obama's feet to the fire and presenting a clear-headed rebuttal to conservative mythos.

But hey, who cares about language in 'Merkuh, land of the eddicated. People who are slack with their terminology often contribute to the mess far more than they help clear it up.

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Liberals Hate America
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Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on Nov 26, 2008 12:50 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It probably won't happen, but I'd like to see liberals all around the country put on flag-pins on January 20, the day that Obama takes office. We can then ask all of our conservative friends and relatives why they aren't wearing their flag pins; why aren't they patriotic?

I am quite serious about this. For one thing we need to take back our flag, but it also is a good opportunity to bring up this topic in some circumstance other than when American bombs are dropping on some unfortunate country.

Ideally, the flag-pins would be union made and have a slightly different design than the ones we are accustomed to seeing. Perhaps a banner saying By the People and For the People.

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» RE: Liberals Hate America Posted by: Obijuan

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Stanimal
[Report this comment]
Posted by: drfun on Nov 26, 2008 1:48 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Good article and would like to add that the GOP "Greed & Oppression Party" love to blowviate about their "Family Values" wife and political party swapping, snitch, B rated senile sap Ronald Reagan.

Who called Saddam Hussein and Osma bin Laden "Freedom Fighter's" the Republicans have re-labeled "Terrorist's".

That supported Al-CIAda in the 80's while fomenting Treason with the Iran-Contra weapons for cocaine scandle.

Bloating the size of government and its run-a-way deficit spending that your great grandchildren of "Loved Ones" will still only be paying a fraction of the interest of the total accrued debt. Declaring that "Deficit's Don't Matter", go figure?

Busting the FAA controllers Union and championing deregulation that have fostered the S & L scandle, Junk Bonds, then followed the dot.com bust, Sup-Prime, CDO's and finally the 700 +billion $ bailout to reward golden parachutes to the very "Financial Wizards" who deserve prison instead.

Supporting the self-appointed Bu$h cabal, and its multitudes of Felons from the Reagan regime in its ranks.

Such leadership from a AWOL/Deserter, convicted drunk driver who refuses to
disclose the last time he's done cocaine, and his multi-convicted drunk driving, 5 time Vietnam deferred, who demanded union wage concessions then stole the $'s as his bonus Buckshot Dick.

And the road show of the Henry Hyde "Youthful Indiscretions" Livingston/Gingrich/Barr/McCain multiple marriage infidelities, Foley Congressional page exploits, and Craig bathroom shenanigans.

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Pie
[Report this comment]
Posted by: go on Nov 26, 2008 3:22 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yummy yummy, aggregation of power and money, good for everyone. Ok you have a pie, someone takes takes a big slice there is less for everyone else. I like less pie for me and more pie for whoever already has alot of pie. It's a great system unless you are unlucky then you may have to resort to eating your own feet. "No pie for you!"

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what is this thanksgiving crap anyway-to thanks for saving the english pirates scum bags -pilgrim???
[Report this comment]
Posted by: avatar_singh on Nov 26, 2008 5:47 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
this thanksgiving day is a shame tyo perpetuyate the memory of those enlgish pirates who came to american shore in early 1600s-did they lose the way to pilgrim>after all jerusalem was and still is east to pymouth not west.
no -they awere english abstrds who were racists and very pirates in essence and were the scum of the earth-their arival in america is celebrated by the americans most of who have no ebnglish or british ancestry-in fact moere than 60% of americans are not of anglosaxon descent but in name of whote e=versues balck and other crap the aenglish derived scum bags have maninted their illgotten power in america so much that amerc=ica celebreates this crap thankgivintg more than the 4th of july.
so called white supremacists are nothing but engliahs scum bags and their agents-they donto like germans irish, frewnch or scandinavions either-who are more white than these english derived scum bags.

===================

How britain got hold on america after american independence-- --- This all started soon after Napoleonic war when in 1816 to 1817 The english again attacked america in her southern flanks and the day was saved only because of some French navy mercenaries and French speaking population of Louisiana and such states along with non-english origin americans. But the english invaders infiltrated among that population of the south of USA which today calls itself bible belt (whose god has always been english royalty and who worship only stolen money).By 1850 to 1860 England attacked erstwhile friend (in Napoleonic war) Russia in Crimea along with erstwhile foe (now controlled by unpopular english stooge) France.-how the same pattern is so predictable in case of this intrusive, cancerous exploitative race called english and anglo saxons. At that very time England was actively supporting the slave exploitation, in fact all the big plantation owners were english derived and they owned loyalty not to flag of United states of america but to England. -in other words they were agents of foreign country who wanted to keep south america occupy as foreign power again. The civil war in america was not only supported with money and arms by england but rather england was the instigator of american civil war in order to keep whole of america enslaved and if not possible at least those parts (South) where it could call upon filial loyalty. It was truly a war of race-not against whites and blacks but against anglo saxons versus blacks, Irish, other European peoples .The same would be repeated in future. The confederacy was a traitor to america-a british agents; but ironically that same confederacy flag today is being propagandised by their descendents as symbol of american independence and patriotism. Having lost the proxy war england resorted to the one thing it specialises-terrorism and misinformation. Abraham Lincoln was murdered by the person very sympathetic to british cause. (against Napoleon england had sent several terrorist squads-that is why Napoleon had to declare Himself an Emperor to maintain the clear line of succession to protect glorious French Revolution). It is very interesting that most of the american presidents assassinated were those whom England did not want being elected. By the end of civil war ,instead of disinfranchasising the british supporters (of southern states) and taking away their land or at least redistributing evenly the stolen land, the american govt. was persuaded by britain to spare them and let those southern traitors keep all the stolen land so that drug (tobacco) and cotton would be of assured supply to england. Of course by that time because of fall of Napoleon (brought about not by military might but by conspiracy to embroil the Europeans among each other( conspiracy hatched in London-that was the only english contribution to napoleons' fall-forget waterloo where Austrians and Prussians had contributed most militarily):consequently

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Two party system insuffcient and constricting for voters
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Posted by: floridahank on Nov 26, 2008 6:32 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How can 2 parties offer the best answers for
a nation of 300 million people? Look over this
article and let me know what you think.

THE TWO party system in the United States is outdated and is a failure. It is a rare thing that the Republicans and Democrats preach and talk about human rights in the world while other political parties are actively excluded and marginalised by the mainstream media and the establishment. The Republicans and Democrats are proving themselves to be old fashioned, childish, arrogant about the needs of the people, the fact that housing and Insurance are becoming increasingly expensive, and that people are not voting since the elections are arranged in favour of the Republicans and Democrats.

Who can forget how the city of San Francisco threatened members of the Green Party with loss of job if they voted Green during the 2000 elections?

Who can forget how the secretary of state of Ohio nullified 57,000 signatures on a petition by the Libertarian Party to present Michael Badnarik on the ballot in 2004?

Who can forget how in the state of Ohio, in the final hours of the 2004 elections, there was the existence of threats to alternative parties?

Who can forget how in the year 2006, the Republican candidate for governor of Illinois refused to debate with a member of the Green Party present in Illinois Public Television?

Who can forget the refusal of Republicans and Democrats to debate Libertarians and Greens in televised debates in Ohio in 2006?

Why did North Carolina use extra-legal means to keep the Libertarian Party from being on the ballot?

The Republicans and Democrats are afraid of alternative parties since they are the harbingers of war, hatred, and a system that is being discredited by the minute. Even the almighty Dollar has fallen with the Euro being used in many countries such as Iran and Qatar. It is easy to hide behind the ivory tower that is Washington DC and say “nothing is happening.” It is easy to hide behind the laws that govern elections (that are discriminatory) and an Electoral College, that outlived its usefulness.

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Article needs a surgeon general's warning
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Posted by: PaulD on Nov 26, 2008 8:13 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Conservatives have nothing to fear from people who take this article to heart. The liberals will all be at home nursing paraplegia from patting themselves so vigorously on the back.

(Sigh) So many openings, so little time.

Let's take Social Security. Please. If the amount coerced from employers and employees were invested in the evil capitalist stock market over the course of a working lifetime, retirees would be far better off financially. Even a liberals love their 401(K)s.

(Full disclosure: In the interests of a fair and balanced examination of the issues, Alternet discourages participants from responding to "conservative talking points".)

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» Maybe this is why Posted by: PaulD
» RE: Maybe this is why Posted by: wal55
» RE: Maybe this is why Posted by: PaulD
» Wal55... Posted by: PaulD
» RE: Wal55... Posted by: wal55

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Just sad
[Report this comment]
Posted by: FreeAmerica on Nov 27, 2008 8:37 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would love it if my super lib brother wanted to debate me based on this ridiculous list of inaccuracies, stereotypes, and outright blather.

It is no wonder that you hate debating with your 'lesser' relatives. Armed with ideas like these, you would be easy pickin's at my table.

As far as the enlightened that want to print this out for future reference..

You really should get your history talking points from someplace other than this article. Perhaps an older American history book would be a good start.

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So far, we're not seeing much change in voter registration
[Report this comment]
Posted by: PaulD on Nov 28, 2008 12:50 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So how'd it go when you trotted out the article's talking points? Are your families closer now?

Or did they just ask you what was in that folded paper you were trying to hide?

Did you successfully reduce Mom and Dad to embarrassed silence in front of the whole family?

Or are they all loving new converts to progressivism now, holding hands around the Obama portrait and thanking you for opening their eyes?

And are they looking forward to a repeat performance at Christmas?

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Now That The Thanksgiving is Over...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: MyLeftFoot on Nov 29, 2008 5:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
this study came in. Enjoy...

http://www.theonion.com/content/news /study_finds_link_between_red_wine

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Markht
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Markht on Nov 30, 2008 9:58 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This was just the sort of hysterical comedy that makes my day.
The authoress has clearly swallowed the liberal kool aid!

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One Thing NOT To Point Out To Conservatives
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Posted by: armorypk on Nov 30, 2008 12:06 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Undeniable fact:
Among the world's greatest artists, musicians, authors, comedians and actors, nearly all are political progressives. By definition, conservatives are not creative people.

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Actually, let's compare the 80's to the 90's, and...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: jimidee on Nov 30, 2008 7:27 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the 90's to the 2000-08. That is a much more pertinent comparo.

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Love of country......
[Report this comment]
Posted by: tap17x on Dec 7, 2008 11:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
.......is manifested much better by liberals than by conservatives. Conservatives will accept any behavior by the US so long as it favors their interests. Liberals hold out for civilized and generous behavior. Whose ideals are better?

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