COMMENTS: 254
College Loan Slavery: Student Debt Is Getting Way Out of Hand
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AlterNet is resurfacing the best and most popular articles from 2008. This article by Nan Mooney on college loans was first published in November.
Raya Golden thought she was handling college in a responsible way. She didn't apply until she felt ready to dedicate herself to her studies. She spread her schooling across five years so she could work part-time throughout. She checked that her school, the Academy of Art University in San Francisco, had a high post-graduate employment rate. But there were two things she hadn't counted on. The first was the $75,000 in nonsubsidized federal student loans she'd have to take out for tuition and those living expenses her part-time jobs selling hotdogs and making lattes couldn't cover. The second was that she'd graduate into a workforce teetering on the edge of the biggest financial crisis since the Great Depression.
"All of a sudden the work just dried up," says Golden, who got her degree in traditional illustration. "I've sent out probably a hundred resumes from L.A. to Canada, but I haven't had a single response. Experienced people are getting laid off, so why would anyone take a chance on a college grad?"
Shortly after graduating this past January, Golden moved from San Francisco to Los Angeles hoping there would be more work available, only to find hiring freezes at most of the production studios and animation houses. She has looked into fields ranging from children's book publishing to T-shirt design, but no one is hiring. For now, she's doing her best to get by working part-time as a barista at Starbucks and sleeping on a friend's couch.
Golden has taken a three-month hardship deference on her student loans but is well aware that the longer she pushes off payments, the higher the interest will climb. She had hoped to consolidate her loans, which are now at $112,000, but every place she called either no longer handles consolidations or turned down Golden because she was not employed full-time. Since there's no way Golden could possibly make her $1,400-a-month payments on a part-time barista's salary, she brokered a temporarily reduced payment of $650.
"It doesn't even cover the interest," says Golden, "If I pay that for two years I'll wind up owing $150,000. But I can't see that I have any other choice."
As for her career future, Golden admits things look bleak.
"I'll probably have to go back to school to learn computer illustration," she says, acknowledging that this means racking up even more debt with still no guarantee of a job. She is wary given that so far, despite her work ethic and excellent grades, the higher education path hasn't paid off at all.
"My timing couldn't have been worse," she says, voice brimming with frustration. "I'm doing the exact same thing I was doing before I went to school, only now I have all this debt to carry around, too."
The economy these days looks frightening for just about everyone. Who would want to be a retiree with little to no earning potential, or a young family grappling with mortgage and child care payments while facing the possibility, or reality, of job loss? But imagine trying to enter the labor force right now, making career choices that could affect your entire earning future. How are college graduates supposed to juggle student loan payments with the realities of an imploding job market and family members too caught up in their own financial turmoil to help out? With all the attention focused on failing banks and government bailouts, the very legitimate panic felt by such graduates risks getting lost in the shuffle.
"Most of the recent graduates I hear from are petrified," says Alan Collinge, founder of Student Loan Justice, an organization that fights for student loan reform, and author of an upcoming book about the student loan industry. "They have yet to find real jobs in their field, so they're out there slinging hash to make ends meet. And then their loan payments come due."
Graduates like Golden are right to feel petrified. According to a recent College Board report, about 60 percent of 2007 college graduates had student debt, each taking out an average of $22,700 in loans. Graduates are expected to begin repaying within six months, healthy job market or no. Loans can be deferred, but never erased (unless you die or are permanently disabled). And when those payments do come due, many will face the prospect of paying back not only fixed-rate federal loans but also high-interest private loans. The private loan industry is now responsible for 24 percent of student lending. Before the economic crisis hit, it was the fastest-growing sector of the student loan industry. And though the $700 billion bailout bill includes provisions to enable the U.S. Treasury to buy troubled assets, including private loans, from student loan providers, it provides no relief for the students who have taken out such high-interest loans.
Collinge sees the proliferation of costly private loans and the abysmal job market as a potentially toxic mix, one that could result in a wave of bad loans echoing what has already happened in the housing industry.
"Attention needs to shift from welfare of the banks to welfare of the students," he offers. "Otherwise, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a dramatic spike in the number of people defaulting on their private loans."
Private loans weigh heavily on Rebecca Gretzinger's financial future. When her $20,000 in government aid wouldn't stretch far enough, she took out $20,000 in private loans from Sallie Mae in order to complete her bachelor's degree. Since graduating two years ago, she has been paying $150 every six months to hold her private loans in forbearance. But come December she'll need to come up with $640 a month in total loan payments -- 40 percent of her monthly income.
"I'm in my mid-twenties, and I'm still living with my parents," she says. "I don't have any resources to fall back on. I am very concerned that my private loans will be put into default once I have to start paying them back. "
Gretzinger works at an insurance company call center, a job that doesn't require a college degree. It's neither well paid -- her salary is based on commission -- nor stable -- she was laid off in April and then rehired in October -- and Gretzinger holds out little hope that she will be able to support herself, and her debt, on what she makes. She has tried searching for better jobs near her family home in Green Bay, Wis., but despite her degree in business administration with a minor in marketing, no one is hiring.
"I don't know what my plans for the future are," she says. "But I realize now that I will never be able to have children or even a house of my own. I went to college to better myself but found myself much, much worse off then I ever could have imagined."
Gretzinger concedes that she's lucky to have a job at all, and she's right. The nation's underemployment rate -- which includes not only the unemployed but also part-time workers who want full-time jobs and jobless workers who want but are no longer seeking full-time employment -- reached 11 percent in September, its highest rate in 19 years. For recent graduates landing in a job market that already contains more than 17 million underemployed, the prospects are indeed depressing.
For those unable to find adequately paying jobs, and there will be plenty, the consequences of defaulting on student loans can be life-altering, ranging from ruined credit reports to garnished wages to liens placed against property and bank accounts. Not even declaring bankruptcy can hold them exempt. In these dicey economic times, an inability to pay could deliver a crippling blow to young people who have barely had a chance to get their feet wet in the working world. Such realities only add to the disillusion many like Golden and Gretzinger are experiencing regarding the nation's investment in their educations and their futures.
"I no longer believe that my job is safe, and there are very few other jobs out there," Gretzinger says. "The rescue plan may help the banks, but it's not going to help me. I believe that it will take years to get this country back on its feet."
It seems all a graduate can do these days is hang on and hope the new administration brings about some kind of economic change that will work in their favor. But for many, hope feels like a pretty tenuous thing.
"I feel like I'm on the Titanic," says Golden. "Who got out first? The rich people. Everyone else was just left to drown."
For years, young people have been banking on the message that acquiring job skills and an education will pave the way to financial security. Instead, for many, the quest for a college degree has only dumped them even deeper into the financial pit. For a country depending on coming generations to get us out of the economic mess we currently find ourselves in, such lack of faith in a brighter future truly is a petrifying prospect.
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: CatDad on Nov 12, 2008 12:16 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We need to gut Sallie Mae and make the government the direct lender. We need to reform BK laws to be less punitive towards defaulted student loans. We need to direct more students to skilled trades rather than assuming that EVERYONE needs a 4-year degree. Students need to be given a full disclosure of what their payments would be before they naively sign up for expensive private colleges and trade schools, which often cost $35K per year.
http://www.studentloanjustice.org/
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» education beyond high school...
Posted by: ellie
» RE: re:1chichimec1
Posted by: almendoza2
» Univ. Graduates are an artificial subsidized commodity
Posted by: TB
» RE: Univ. Graduates are an artificial subsidized commodity
Posted by: CatDad
» Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac will be the ENRON of the Democrats
Posted by: Libertarian Paternalist
» More trash Right Wing mythology
Posted by: CatDad
» We Can't All Make the Grade
Posted by: Libertarian Paternalist
» RE: We Can't All Make the Grade
Posted by: Buck_Turgisson
» RE: Listen, suckers--er--students
Posted by: Koondog
Comments are closed-
Posted by: NoPCZone on Nov 12, 2008 1:12 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why has there been no investigation into why higher ed costs have inflated at easily double the inflation rate year after year for a couple of decades now? Why are schools staffed with so may 'Professors' that do not teach? Why do schools continue to build student centers that look like the local mall and dump the costs upon the student fee structure? Why is almost every school milking the students for every spare dime they can possibly extract from them?
Since most of thee institutions are public, they are ultimately answerable not to boards of Profs or Alumni- they are answerable to the citizens that actually own the schools. It's time that someone tells those running public universities that they need to plan and run these institutions as gateways for our citizens to acquire the training, knowledge and skills necessary to contribute to, enrich and participate in the society. That mission needs to be done in a fiscally responsible way.
Enormous State University will never be Harvard, Stanford or Duke. They need to stop chasing a moving target of amenities and high profile Professors that do not teach and get on with their real role- affordable education for the many.
Our nation does not need more gold-plated dormitories or multi-hundred million dollar stadium expansions at the price of an increasingly unaffordable education that is almost a necessity to earn even a minimally livable wage. On campus food bars with Starbucks are not worth pricing countless young American students out of the opportunity for an education.
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» consider funding for a moment
Posted by: wolfgangmo
» RE: You're absolutley right.
Posted by: Cybershaman
» Specific Example
Posted by: benzene
» U of M is Not Typical
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE:Professors that *do* teach...
Posted by: Sushi
» RE:...and another rip off
Posted by: Sushi
» We Need A Public Education System For Higher Education
Posted by: jooljetkmae
» RE: We Need A Public Education System For Higher Education
Posted by: login@bugmenot.com
» RE: We Need A Public Education System For Higher Education
Posted by: rickiey
» Let's Start With "Me, Too" Degrees
Posted by: femmyv
» IF they can even get in...
Posted by: jmoore
Comments are closed-
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Nov 12, 2008 1:18 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I assume college is more expensive even at state schools than it was when I went, and financial aid is less generous. But I still think there's this romantic idea that you have to go to your dream college at all costs, live in the dorms, spend all your spare cash on partying, and live the college "experience" that they advertise in the glossies.
Looking back, the smartest thing might have been to go to community college straight out of high school, go to a 4 year for my junior and senior years, and maybe even take a few courses through independent learning and examination. I could probably have gone to a better 4-year school, because I wouldn't have to compete with a bunch of college-hungry freshmen for all the freshman spots, and I would only have to pay for two years. Or else I could have gotten an associate's degree, get two years of work experience, and get tuition assistance from work to complete my 4-year degree, or something like that.
I suppose that doesn't address the bigger question of educating our workforce affordably, or those who choose law or medicine. But as a practical matter, I think there are alternatives for individuals who are willing to forego the picture-perfect college "experience", which I think is a big racket.
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» RE: College
Posted by: mary-alias
» Talk to a bankruptcy lawyer first.
Posted by: wolfgangmo
» RE: Talk to a bankruptcy lawyer first.
Posted by: Cybershaman
» That's exactly it: who you know, not what you know.
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
» Yes and no
Posted by: benzene
» College education IS possible
Posted by: wdfisgoingon?
» RE: College
Posted by: Deep
Comments are closed-
Posted by: minmotstand on Nov 12, 2008 2:29 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are also ones that teach in English and cost upwards of $10,000. However, several are much cheaper.
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» RE: Tuition in Europe
Posted by: minmotstand
» RE: Tuition in Europe
Posted by: anu
» RE: California ...
Posted by: Cybershaman
» You would think folks who read adam smith...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: You would think folks who read adam smith...
Posted by: laoma
» RE: Tuition in Europe
Posted by: benzene
» RE: Tuition in Europe
Posted by: songbird1268
Comments are closed-
Posted by: gunboat diplomat on Nov 12, 2008 2:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is the neocon wet dream, domestically speaking: a dumbed-down and easily manipulated population ruled over by a well-educated but tightly disciplined elite.
It's nothing but ideology. The simple fact is that their is a kind of aristocratic heirarchy within American education and society. If your parents are very wealthy and you are at least presentable, then you go to schools like Stanford and Harvard and Yale where you make the personal connections that will serve you well later in life.
The middle-class college education experience used to be similar, but without the Ivy and the high-flying connections. State schools and public universities were the backbone of this larger system, which boomed in the post WWII years as the government realized the rising importance of science in global affairs, as well as the need for a highly educated public. Keep in mind, there was a time when one could get a good blue-collar job in the U.S. with no more than a high school education. Those jobs are now either in China and Mexico, or require a good deal more education.
This period came to an end in the early 90s, after financial interests got involved in government-sponsored college loan programs. Every other industrialized country provides free college education, or at least low-cost education, but the U.S. has to give Wall Street a big fat gift in the form of decades of college loan payments ... or maybe it's that some sectors of the U.S. government and the aristocratic class would prefer it if only some people were highly educated?
A more likely explanation is that the U.S. academic system is being destroyed by corruption and greed, at multiple levels, most well out of the view of the public eye, and it's been going on ever since the early years of the Reagan Administration. That's more likely than the population-control conspiracy theories, I think.
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» In my former grad program,...
Posted by: photon's feather
» RE: A deliberate effort to dumb down the American public?
Posted by: vkobaya1
» The "invisible hand" in action.
Posted by: SteveO
» RE: A deliberate effort to dumb down the American public?
Posted by: DHopper
» Hey, eternal war costs!
Posted by: kegbot1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rickiey on Nov 12, 2008 3:15 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lets be honest, there are two types of degrees. One type qualifies you to do a job, the other makes you interesting. But not both.
Students need to be directed to a realistic degree that will help them be EMPLOYED, instead of "counselors" asking "what is your dream job?" regardless of whether or not it is a realistic post-graduation proposition.
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» RE: Lets take a look at what the degree is:
Posted by: phoenixrising
» How many of any profession do we need?
Posted by: SteveO
» The job you love
Posted by: rugger
» RE: That's right...
Posted by: Cybershaman
» That is the gist.
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
» RE: The job you love
Posted by: lissajayne
» RE: The job you love
Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: The job you love
Posted by: lissajayne
» Let's look at Rickiey's agenda
Posted by: wolfgangmo
» RE: Let's look at Rickiey's agenda
Posted by: Shehova
» RE: Let's look at Rickiey's agenda
Posted by: BeckyD
» So drafting kids to the military is your solution to financing higher education?
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Let's look at Rickiey's agenda
Posted by: rickiey
» Don't Undervalue an Arts Degree
Posted by: Deep
» No kidding. I have an arts degree.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» arts degree too but let's face it when the economy tanks the arts are the first to suffer.
Posted by: the baron
» Linguist Here
Posted by: nen
» RE: Linguist Here
Posted by: rickiey
» RE: Lets take a look at what the degree is:
Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» RE: Lets take a look at what the degree is:
Posted by: rickiey
» RE: Lets take a look at what the degree is:
Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» RE: Lets take a look at what the degree is:
Posted by: Blondinista
» Stop trashing art degrees
Posted by: Blondinista
» RE: Stop trashing art degrees
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Stop trashing art degrees
Posted by: Blondinista
» The road less traveled
Posted by: mcubed
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Bobsays on Nov 12, 2008 3:15 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
God bless union bumping rights and other malevolent tools to screw young people out of opportunity and wealth. The problem is generational: the boomers have set the system up to make sure that the young never get a break, ever.
My advice? Never, ever get in debt: ever. No degree is worth it except a medical degree (doctors are never unemployed). As for everyone else, don't do it. Instead, spend your time coming up with business ideas and acting on them. A much better use of your time than mixing lattes for idiot yuppies. We live in a dishonest, back-stabby society: get used to it.
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» RE: Broken record, broken society
Posted by: PJAW
» Broken
Posted by: kepstein7777
» RE: Broken
Posted by: Yankeeinexile
» RE: Broken record, broken society
Posted by: Cybershaman
» ...No degree is worth it....
Posted by: xvictor
» If you are a woman...
Posted by: Bobsays
» RE: If you are a woman...
Posted by: 6ndi333
» RE: If you are a woman...
Posted by: 6ndi333
» A couple years ago I saw a listing for a warehouse delivery driver job, hauling bread,
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
» the boomers have set the system
Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» yeah great advice...
Posted by: rafaeltoral
» True dat!
Posted by: Bobsays
Comments are closed-
Posted by: NthnBrazil on Nov 12, 2008 3:27 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That is not only insane, its just stupid. And its only the most convenient example since its in the article. I know (and you probably do too) plenty of people in this same situation.
I think the fact that we collectively give a pass to people who foolishly buy degrees that will never pay them enough to cover the cost needs to change. We malign people who spend hundreds on get-rich-quick seminars on how to buy no-money-down properties, but if someone gets a $75K degree in social work, we curse the system.
And speaking about that system, how about the law of supply and demand? Ask any high school guidance counselor and they will tell you how there is no such thing as "college isn't for you" anymore. Even straight D students dilligently fill out applications and clog the seats at community and state schools. It should be no mystery why a college degree today has the same beneift as a high school degree did 35 years ago in terms of job opportunity and upward mobility, except now we pay through the nose for the last 4 years of school in a system that needs to serve a much higher percentage of the 18-21 year old population than it was ever intended to.
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» RE: Shock/Awe: Bad decisions magnified in tough times
Posted by: dannrusso
» RE: Shock/Awe: Bad decisions magnified in tough times
Posted by: NthnBrazil
» RE: Shock/Awe: Bad decisions magnified in tough times
Posted by: benzene
» Starting in the 80's America dismantled the unions.
Posted by: wolfgangmo
» Apprenticeship
Posted by: kepstein7777
» RE: Apprenticeship
Posted by: Cybershaman
» Someone actually gave you a "5" for this tripe??
Posted by: 6399
» Maybe they realize there are 2 separate lines of thought here
Posted by: NthnBrazil
» RE: Maybe they realize there are 2 separate lines of thought here
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
» Why is it an either/or choice? You seem to have a bit of a strawman there. . .
Posted by: NthnBrazil
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Scott on Nov 12, 2008 3:50 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Scott
Posted by: phoenixrising
» RE: Scott
Posted by: Cybershaman
» we are "saving those for illegals" because...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» "I forgot those are the jobs we are saving for the illegals"
Posted by: xvictor
» sorry bud...
Posted by: rafaeltoral
» So the electricians and plumbers and foundation repair people commute from China when you call them?
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
» RE: So the electricians and plumbers and foundation repair people commute from China when you call them?
Posted by: maglindracia
Comments are closed-
Posted by: terradea42 on Nov 12, 2008 4:00 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I, too, sent out hundreds of resumes (I saved every one). I am too old (late 40s), according to some of the people I spoke with. I wonder every day what will happen to me if I lose my job, which today, is VERY likely.
And, I am not alone. There are MANY young people in the same boat who graduated with me. And who owe the same amount. It scares me.
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» RE: I owe nearly $200,000 in student loans.
Posted by: rugger
» RE: I owe nearly $200,000 in student loans.
Posted by: phoenixrising
» RE:loan forgiveness
Posted by: astudent
» RE: loan forgiveness
Posted by: maglindracia
» And don't you have a job?
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: And don't you have a job?
Posted by: maglindracia
» RE: I owe nearly $200,000 in student loans.
Posted by: georgiaorwell
» RE: I owe nearly $200,000 in student loans.
Posted by: QuestionAuthority
» Scientists
Posted by: benzene
» It's amazing
Posted by: kegbot1
» RE: I owe nearly $200,000 in student loans.
Posted by: Mira615
» RE: I owe nearly $200,000 in student loans.
Posted by: maglindracia
» RE: I owe nearly $200,000 in student loans.
Posted by: maxpayne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: phoenixrising on Nov 12, 2008 4:19 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However, it needs to be pushed.
See
http://www.finaid.org/loans/publicservice.phtml
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» RE: Student Loan Debt Relief
Posted by: georgiaorwell
» Read it again
Posted by: wolfgangmo
» Since this requires 10 years straight of fulltime work it won't help most people
Posted by: Callibrarian
» RE: Since this requires 10 years straight of fulltime work it won't help most people
Posted by: georgiaorwell
» RE: Student Loan Debt Relief
Posted by: Mira615
Comments are closed-
Posted by: PJAW on Nov 12, 2008 4:32 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We're at a point now, where the resources that have created this current boom have peaked and will begin to deplete with increasing rapidity. Oil is probably the major resource upon which we have built this house of cards, but water is likely to become our most urgent need in a short time.
The old jobs are not coming back and the new jobs, assuming we have enough resources left to bridge to a new economic base, have not been created as yet. Tough times are ahead, but we knew that 8 years ago (hell 30 years ago) and what did we do? We put an idiot in charge, broke out the credit card, and partied like there's no tomorrow. Except here it is, tomorrow. Now the frat boys who lead the drinking games are back home enjoying all the benefits of the crony club, while you and I have a hangover and a bar tab. The next decade promises to be interesting.
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» RE: Too easy too long
Posted by: willymack
» RE: Too easy too long
Posted by: maglindracia
Comments are closed-
Posted by: georgiaorwell on Nov 12, 2008 4:32 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is an enormous financial, personal disaster and an almost impossible loan to pay back for most American citizens. Most European universities are outstanding schools, yet they charge minimal tuitions; many, also, do loan forgiveness after several years.
There will be those who think that students should not have gotten into this situation, but that's ridiculous. The US apparently loves bailing out irresponsible entities like Lehman Brothers and AIG plus spending billions of dollars on an unauthorized war against an enemy that did not cause 9/11. There may even be a likely bailout of the auto industry not to mention a bailout of many homeowners who bought and then lost their jobs.
Why take just a harsh line with those who seek an education? While we're at it, American colleges and universities are extremely overpriced compared to other western countries Should we also abolish all humanities programs and only offer MBAs, Engineering, Computer, or Medical degrees - it seems like those are the only jobs offered throughout the country anyway. I see jobs listed that I can't figure out what degree you would have to have to get them. Also, if you're a new graduate, most jobs only want you to apply if you have 5-7 years experience. Is the whole education/jobs thing a hoax? It appears so.
One last thing: I'm a firm believer in vocational training, but half the vocational schools haven't been listed as 'loan acceptable' so they don't count for obtaining loans. Additionally, many of these loans come back at you with enormously high interest rates.
The Department of Education has been described as using gestapo like tactics in trying to ruin your life if you miss a payment or default on your loan. I don't know about you, but people who jump out of windows or kill themselves and their families because they lost their shirts in the stock market are no different than those who cannot pay back their student loans and who cannot pay their rents or buy food. Something must be done for those who are in this situation whether we like it or not. Then change the process for those in the future who wish to seek an education.
Congress could help with this; one program they have started, though, only counts for those who start paying after 2007 - insane.
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» RE: Something absolutely must be done!
Posted by: georgiaorwell
Comments are closed-
Posted by: taxidriver on Nov 12, 2008 4:44 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They provide national service--their debt is paid
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» RE: How about this?
Posted by: socialpsych
» RE: How about this?
Posted by: Live Gently
» RE: How about this?
Posted by: lefty010
» RE: How about this?
Posted by: nen
» Here's Another Suggestion
Posted by: FP2U
» RE: How about this?
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: How about this?
Posted by: maglindracia
Comments are closed-
Posted by: photon's feather on Nov 12, 2008 4:49 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I complained about the utter incometence of the head of my grad program, as well as medical fraud and malpractice; and some kid told me that I ought to have done a better job checking out the school, nd that I could hire a lawyer for the malpractice (what ignorance!). Though I told her this was a fully-accredited program at a fully accredited state university, not tendbar.com, she didn't see that as relevant. (She was supposed to be a supervisor, to whom my call was forwarded when I objected to that very response from the rep that answered the phone - but she sounded about 16 years old.)
2. If you default, it will indeed destroy your credit report (as mentioned), but how many people realize that a bad credit rating significantly reduces your chances of being employed?
In addition, loan deferrals gotten for reasons of illness are also limited, even if your disability persists after your deferments run out; plus, your loan continues to rack up interest charges, even if disability is the reason for the deferral(s). "Permanent disability" is a dicey area, too.
Some universities' goal seems to be self-perpetuation, serving everyone but the students.
The entire education industry is rigged in so many ways that it is just unbelievable.
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Posted by: hepkats on Nov 12, 2008 5:07 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"But there were two things she hadn't counted on. The first was the $75,000 in nonsubsidized federal student loans she'd have to take out for tuition and those living expenses her part-time jobs selling hotdogs and making lattes couldn't cover."
She hadn't counted on the cost of tuition and living expenses?
I think our current education system is horrible. I think we lag behind every other major democracy in our treatment of education.
However, that doesn't excuse someone from not doing things as basic as factoring in tuition and the cost of living. That's irresponsible.
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Posted by: mary-alias on Nov 12, 2008 5:26 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» No... we just want to get rid of predatory lending practices...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Me too
Posted by: Karina
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Posted by: harryf200 on Nov 12, 2008 5:41 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: nobody4prez on Nov 12, 2008 6:10 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Your government loans are deferred, but you still have to pay the interest.
2. Any private loans may or may not be deferred.
3. Perkins Loans receive 15% cancellation per year.
As a Ph.d. candidate and instructor at a state institution, I have to say:
1. University education should be free; there's very little reason it couldn't be (if we can afford universal K-12 public education, surely we can afford 4 to 6 years of tertiary education for another 50% of the population).
2. There is no real need for there to be a quality difference between state universities and private ones. A lot of important research is being done at many Tier I state schools (universities with research programs). It's not that expensive (compared, say, to a major company or military base) to operate a university, and even full professors aren't exactly overpaid: most of the profs I know do 50 hours per week of teaching, supervision, administration, service, and research, PLUS another 15-20 hours per week working on their own research -- publish or perish, right? -- all for an average $50k per year...
3. The benefits to society and private industry are enormous, and those benefits are largely given away -- by making undergrads pay for them. Who benefits when someone at my schools invents a new way to make carbon nanotubes, develops a new crop variety, or figures out a cheaper, safer, better way to design a medical device? Who picked up the bill?
By the way, multinationals pay universities a lot of money for the right to operate and/or sell their product on campus. For example, all soft drinks sold anywhere on my university's grounds come from Coca Cola or a subsidiary. There's no Starbuck's on campus, but they'd probably be willing to pay a pretty penny to do so.
Scandalous. American priorities are seriously twisted.
Click here to see the Peace Corps page on student loans.
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» RE: The Peace Corps and Student Debt
Posted by: Yankeeinexile
» My Original Comment
Posted by: NoPCZone
» Great post
Posted by: kegbot1
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Posted by: BobS on Nov 12, 2008 6:23 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One of the slogans of today's student activists is "Money for Tuition...Not Ammunition." The poor decision making and bad financial planning came from a political leadership that preferred greed and empire over an educated populace.
Students who work hard in school are raising our collective intelligence as a nation. We should be standing by their side in solidarity against this exploitation.
Full disclosure: I have three college degrees all of which came from the generous financial aid and subsidies that were once available. I first entered college in 1965.
I had some debt after my B.A. which I paid off easily in 2 years. My last degree was an MA in history done at night over a period of 5 years. No debt thanks to the fact that the working class university I attended was inexpensive as late as the early 1980's.
Bob Simpson
The BobboSphere
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» RE: Why are so many of the commenters against education?
Posted by: BeckyD
» A Degree In Illustration? Please!
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: A Degree In Illustration? Please!
Posted by: wmm
» RE: A Degree In Illustration? Please!
Posted by: BobS
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Posted by: Bob Graham Las Vegas on Nov 12, 2008 7:15 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
IMHO , Military service is the best as most young peole lack self discipline and is noticed in the high debt of so many. I hope he institutes a "No one excluded draft" where even former "4F" categories get desk jobs at the minimum and elitist children are especially included as opposed to the old way of exempting them.
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» amazing idea....
Posted by: rafaeltoral
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Posted by: nicolecepr on Nov 12, 2008 7:18 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Young people earning less, despite being better educated
Posted by: Cybershaman
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Posted by: JeffVincent on Nov 12, 2008 7:22 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I knew at the time I signed the student loans (again and again) that I would be responsible and make my repayments but with a looming depression, college costs only going higher, and high schools ill preparing students, what I didn't figure was the cost to my children.
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Posted by: Romantic Violence on Nov 12, 2008 7:26 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1789
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Posted by: maxpayne on Nov 12, 2008 7:33 AM
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Posted by: eeezzz on Nov 12, 2008 7:42 AM
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Posted by: therese kovach on Nov 12, 2008 7:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I also STRONGLY agree that one of the basic issues here is that the COSTS of higher education are OUT OF BALANCE with the wages and salaries that MOST people make. I am 58 years old, and still owe $80,000 in student loans: I will go to my grave with this massive debt always over my head, even though I make timely monthly payments! I have been unable to make the payments that the student loan collections people demand, so I face ongoing fines and penalties, plus interest on all of this.It also appears that my loans have been 'sold' over the years to other carriers, with additional fees for this slapped onto my debt. My credit has long ago been ruined; I can never get a mortgage loan, or even a loan to buy a used car. ( I have a PHD in counseling psychology.) Over the years, I have paid off my Bachelor's degree, and a Masters in Art Therapy. During the 1980's, when I divorced and became a single parent, I could only earn in the low $20,000 at mental health centers. I therefore decided to go for the doctorate, hoping that this would increase my earning potential, as well as broaden my skills in the field. Unfortunately, I have never been able to earn more than $40,000: and this is WITHOUT any type of health insurance , sick/vacation time or any other benefits.
I would also like to note that frequently, the jobs that PAY the MOST require the LEAST education. An example: a relative of mine landed a job 20 years with an investment company, and she had not even finished her Bachelor's- she did go on to a get a CFA certification. However, her salary has been almost 10 times what I have ever made. MY POINT: this society needs to value those professions that contribute to the direct health and well-being of the citizens. Certainly education in these areas should be FREE. I have spent my life working hard with the mentally ill, as well as troubled children and families, yet have had to face the extreme anxiety of a huge debt hanging over my head for most of my life!
So, please don't believe that this issue is just affecting the young: I am one of those 'boomers' that have not made it in america...Please don't let the power structure try to divide us: young against old: we are all in the same boat, and this problem has ONLY GOTTEN WORSE as even more jobs disappear. This is an important part in the very core of the crisis in american society.
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Posted by: grtindenim on Nov 12, 2008 8:01 AM
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» RE: Loan forgiveness
Posted by: nobody4prez
» RE: Loan forgiveness
Posted by: grtindenim
» RE: Loan forgiveness
Posted by: georgiaorwell
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Posted by: Danakitty on Nov 12, 2008 8:11 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I was 16. I had saved $3,000 in the bank from working numerous after school jobs, and I was convinced that my hard work ethic and intelligence would be enough to get me by. Sure, I knew I'd have loans to pay -- everyone talked about loans. But no one mentioned that the interest rates could double or even triple the amount I'd actually end up paying. No one told me that the economy was heading for a slump and there wouldn't be jobs for me. No one told me the newspaper industry (of which I got my degree) was collapsing because of the failure to keep up with the Internet.
Those were all things I learned IN COLLEGE. And I graduated in three years, having graduated high school with 20 transferable credits and taken summer courses at a cheap community college. I saved money, but not much.
When I was growing up, there was no question of IF I would go to college. I most certainly was. I had to go, or else I would end up a blue collar worker making minimum wage. At 16, when I sent out applications to colleges across the country, I looked for those that had the best programs, best teachers (those experienced in their field), and best opportunities. I didn't look at the price tag because I was told my education would pay for itself.
Anyway... I just wanted to let people know to stop blaming teenagers for making bad financial decisions. Most of them have only worked one or two jobs (if that) and never had to pay bills or manage more than a savings account. You honestly can't expect them to be at fault for believing the lies society has told them about education paying for itself or that everyone has to go to college.
And for the record, I'm not sorry I went to college. And I'm well aware I'm going to be paying for it for the rest of my life.
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» Do These Teens Have Parents & Other Family?
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: Do These Teens Have Parents & Other Family?
Posted by: EcoFemme
» They Had A Major
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: Stop blaming the youth-time to raise a little hell
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: symcokid on Nov 12, 2008 8:48 AM
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Posted by: gingit1234 on Nov 12, 2008 9:19 AM
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Posted by: weslen1 on Nov 12, 2008 9:23 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Since then I have made payments each month and never received a dime of credit for any of them. They took a tax refund once of $1184.00 and added $1184.00 in fees and interest, canceling out the entire payment. The tax stimulus I was entitled to of $300 went to them as well. I received NO credit for that and was told they didn't have to credit that because it was not a VOLUNTARY PAYMENT. I am 60 yrs old and will continue to pay every month for the rest of my life and not one dime of the now $7000 + that I owe will ever be paid. I am disabled and they can garnish the $300 a month social security disability check I receive if I miss a single payment. The student loan industry is a scam and has been ever since it was privatized.
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Posted by: colinmeister on Nov 12, 2008 9:27 AM
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How can any sane person elect to borrow money to study when they have no idea of what they want to learn, and what to do with the education they receive? America already seems to be dumbed down.
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» RE: College is not an end in itself.
Posted by: bellydonna
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Posted by: penobscotdziekuje@yahoo.com on Nov 12, 2008 9:37 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First, I was lucky to avoid acquiring an enormous student loan. I knew with a journalist salary it would take years to pay it off.
I know that many college students will graduate owing at least more than $30,000 or more in debt. It hangs over a person like an invisible dark spectre. You think getting those evening collection calls is irksome? It's only the beginning.
Debt is a financial killer on earnings. It automatically cancels the ability to save and plan for a solid financial future free from debt. It's the constant variable like X in an algebraic expressions used to solve a problem.
We can understand that some debt is necessary: a car or mortgage payment, doctor bills, but how can we solve the gnawing college debt debacle?
How about a free college education? Could the Feds get involved? Can they devise a plan to make college more affordable?
We hear stories about how today's teens and some families don't have the dough to go to college; and with a shrinking job market, it will be hard to garner the skills needed to snare a good paying job. As we saw from the article, we graduate with a degree in debt. We're then forced to take a job where the pay barely covers the basics to get by. I've done it. I had three jobs in college and I was a full-time student. (For the record, I attended Cal State Northridge. And today tuition is roughly $2,000 for six units or more; not including room and board, books, lab fees, etc. It can soar to $8,000 per semester. How are those students doing it?)
I am concerned for students. The alternative is to attend a two-year school, or junior college, but if you have to go that route acquiring your bachelors might take longer and the price of a four-year school will climb while you labor at the JC. This all depends on fate as well.
One last item: avoid using credit cards if possible. Don't fall into that chasm.
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Posted by: bellydonna on Nov 12, 2008 9:39 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Arts degrees and critical thinking
Posted by: maglindracia
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Posted by: chrisv on Nov 12, 2008 10:05 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If, as you claim, you truly have no or few assets, you might reconsider sending _anything_ to the rapacious loan companies. The maximum that can be garnished from wages/Social Security is 15% of _disposable_ income. In California, at least, the way it's done is that income up to a certain amount is exempted when the monthly garnishment is calculated. Oh, income tax refunds are also seized (at 100%).
However, even that amount is subject to a judge's approval, meaning that the loan company must take you to court to get whatever minimal amount you could afford to pay. If your income is so low, it may not even be worth it to the company to send a lawyer to court to sue you. If you receive a sympathetic hearing (meaning a judge who actually _reviews_ your income vs. expense ratio) the amount awarded may very well be lower than 15% of disposable income.
No, this is not to suggest that people shirk their fiduciary duties. If you took the loan out, you should pay it back- or suffer consequences. But the thing is, at some point the consequences have to END.
Sending a company which makes billions of dollars annually $50/month in perpetuity will do nothing to help your financial picture and is nothing except a life sentence for you.
Perhaps it is clear that this is an issue I'm thinking a lot about, as I'm a freelance musician with $40K in loan debt myself. No, I have no links, but what I said above is accurate to the best of my knowledge.
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» RE: Drips and drabs will do nothing but further impoverish you
Posted by: maglindracia
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Posted by: 6399 on Nov 12, 2008 10:11 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In my case, the university where I taught proved to be nothing short of a training ground for budding electrical engineers who daily assisted the US government in its efforts to create ever more sophisticated military weaponry. The grants my alma mater was accustomed to accepting were positively staggering in size, and yet students continued shelling out tens of thousands for an academic experience that succeeded in churning out cyborgs with limited social skills and entirely deficient language capabilities.
The problem is not with students seeking degreess and positions that do not offer considerable remuneration. The problem is that people spend far too much on an education that should cost half as much, or less. No one should have to beg, borrow and steal their way to a small fortune that is absorbed by an overpriced education.
The world needs history teachers and philosophers. Art history buffs and museum curators. Now maybe the rest of us aren't as discriminating and refined as yourself, but I fear a world populated solely by marketers, attorneys, accountants, stock brokers and commodities traders.
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Posted by: wmm on Nov 12, 2008 10:13 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And no this does not pertain to Junior College or joining the marines.
Seriously if higher education costs continue to go up who will be this country's engineers, doctors, scientist, architects, software developers, writers, economists, lawyers, etc? It's already begun and soon we'll have to rely completlely on foreign nationals to do these jobs.
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» RE: I'm shocked by the response here!
Posted by: EcoFemme
» RE: I'm shocked by the response here!
Posted by: TheNamelessCity
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Posted by: cj21 on Nov 12, 2008 10:16 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Given that the majority of student loans are held by those of us not fresh out of school, any help or changes to the student loan industry should cover ALL loan holders, not just the recent ones.
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» RE: Why only focus on new grads?
Posted by: georgiaorwell
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Posted by: EcoFemme on Nov 12, 2008 10:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I almost went 25,000 into debt for a nursing degree but I changed my mind on nursing and the four year college route.
I am now on a tuititon scholarship at a community college and I don't regret it for a second. I am saving lots of money.
I know some people can't even afford community college but it's a lot cheaper than a four year school. Plus a lot of times the two year colleges have agreements with four year schools and you can get your tuition paid for depending on your GPA.
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Posted by: writerman on Nov 12, 2008 10:37 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can see why the poor are there, but what about the super-rich, what are they for exactly, what purpose do they have, do we need them?
We should decide what a person needs to have an acceptable standard of living and the state should pay that some to everyone, no more and no less. Equality in action.
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» RE: Share the Pain, Share the Wealth!
Posted by: mikepeino
» RE: Share the Pain, Share the Wealth!
Posted by: yesman
» From each according to his ability to each according to his need.
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
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Posted by: shaynafay on Nov 12, 2008 10:54 AM
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Posted by: catfish on Nov 12, 2008 10:59 AM
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- A Fine Arts degree does not guarantee you a job.
- A college degree does not guarantee you a job.
- Not everybody loves their job or has the job of their dreams.
- President Obama will not eradicate disease or eliminate poverty from the face of this earth.
- Academy of Art University is very expensive and is a luxury school, not the most practical choice.
There is a college-industrial complex in this country and it's growing like a death star. College kids cannot write basic essays. We need to improve education in the early years instead of playing catchup in the college years.
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Posted by: boatgod on Nov 12, 2008 11:06 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.forbes.com/free_forbes/1998/1228/6214104a.html
Average wages, inflation adjusted, were higher when American has only a 5% college graduation rate than wages inflation adjusted to today. Putting more people through college has not improved economic prospects, it has done the opposite, and has landed a lot of college graduates into debt for perpetuity.
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» RE: Boatgod
Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» True to a point
Posted by: marid
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Posted by: mikepeino on Nov 12, 2008 11:08 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: This isn't always what you get with government
Posted by: Cybershaman
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Posted by: deeperbeats on Nov 12, 2008 11:32 AM
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Posted by: Libertarian Paternalist on Nov 12, 2008 12:05 PM
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Charles Murray in his new book dispels the myths about higher education and what he calls Educational romanticism, the notion that if there are only more and higher taxes to fund education every child will be able be able to a college degree. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Half of the students are below average ability and only about 10 % should have the full higher educational experience, the rest should go to vocational school or other forms of schooling and instead of havening a B.A to get a job they should take ability test to see if they qualify i.e like the CPA exams, legal Bar exams. Studies have showed that even though the US taxpayer has spent trillions of dollars in doing it, the ability has not been significantly raised.
Mr Murray writes and I cannot but agree:
For now, it is enough to recognize that educational romanticism asks too much from students at the bottom of the intellectual pile, asks the wrong things from those in the middle, and asks too little from those at the top. It short-changes all of them.
Real Education: Four Simple Truths for Bringing America's Schools Back to Reality, Charles Murray
1. Ability varies. Children differ in their ability to learn academic material. Doing our best for every child requires, above all else, that we embrace that simplest of truths. America's educational system does its best to ignore it.
2. Half of the children are below average. Many children cannot learn more than rudimentary reading and math. Real Education reviews what we know about the limits of what schools can do and the results of four decades of policies that require schools to divert huge resources to unattainable goals.
3. Too many people are going to college. Almost everyone should get training beyond high school, but the number of students who want, need, or can profit from four years of residential education at the college level is a fraction of the number of young people who are struggling to get a degree. We have set up a standard known as the BA, stripped it of its traditional content, and made it an artificial job qualification. Then we stigmatize everyone who doesn't get one. For most of America's young people, today's college system is a punishing anachronism.
4. America's future depends on how we educate the academically gifted. An elite already runs the country, whether we like it or not. Since everything we watch, hear, and read is produced by that elite, and since every business and government department is run by that elite, it is time to start thinking about the kind of education needed by the young people who will run the country. The task is not to give them more advanced technical training, but to give them an education that will make them into wiser adults; not to pamper them, but to hold their feet to the fire.
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» Cool
Posted by: kepstein7777
» The meaning of average
Posted by: marid
» RE: We Can't All Make the Grade. too many people go to college
Posted by: maglindracia
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Posted by: drfun on Nov 12, 2008 12:40 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My high school classmates used to think I was stupid, not wanting to go to college or over the past few years get into the ever-increasing real estate market scam.
I wanted as little as possible to contribute the MIC economy the USA thrives on, by choice.
Many accuse me of being un-motivated, as they run around the self made maze of "responsibility" they created for themselves.
While I listen to them complain about commuting, their debt obligations that are killing them, their tuned-out children they can't connect with and little free time to enjoy life.
I'm debt free, and have no obligations to children who will inherit a damaged and deranged world.
We all make choices in life, many just choose the wrong choice and should look in the mirror before pointing fingers anywhere else.
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» RE: You have only yourself to blame NOT TRUE
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» Praise be to
Posted by: marid
» RE: You have only yourself to blame
Posted by: georgiaorwell
» RE: You have only yourself to blame
Posted by: SammySpammy
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Nov 12, 2008 12:45 PM
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Posted by: bluepilgrim on Nov 12, 2008 1:25 PM
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With some careful management and cuttting killing people and maintaining a military empire we could educate most everyone for free, and have an 'intellectual empire'.
We listened to the 'conservatives' and are doing it all wrong. We are blowing all our wealth on greedy banksters and war mongers.
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» RE: Iraq war
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: yesman on Nov 12, 2008 2:13 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So, education should be free for any student to any level that they can achieve. All student loan debt should be cancelled immediately, and all public colleges and universities should have free tuition. The only restriction on education should be the student's own capabilities and motivation.
Why should we spend $700 billion to bail out Wall Street gamblers, and yet saddle students with crippling amounts of debt just because they wanted to get an education? The Wall Street crooks and con men (as well as other corporate shysters) should have their ill-gotten gains seized (or at least heavily taxed) to pay for public education (as well as many other common necessities).
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Posted by: lexicon on Nov 12, 2008 2:20 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When a loan is guaranteed by the government, it becomes just another form of money. Those loans are bundled, securitized, and sold out into the bond market.
So, the thing is, the guaranteed student loan program, while being helpful for students looking for tuition money, is really a way to create an asset-based securities market.
Sound familiar?
The reason I call it "assets" instead of debts, is because of that government guarantee.
Once a "guarantor" blesses the loan, it's as good as money. If the borrower defaults, the government pays. (at typically 95%). So, a student loan guarantee is more like a credit default swap than anything else. You default, the government buys back the loan.
Actually, the guarantor does, using government money. THen it tries to collect. IF it can't it sends the loan eventually to the Dept of Education (actually, they have a delegated agency to accept these "dead" loans).
And the original lender? it has the money back.
The very interesting thing is, that when I worked at a student loan guarantor, who do you imagine they considered their "customer" to be?
The student? sort of...not really.
The school? yes.
The lender? yes.
The bond market? most certainly.
The absolute most acknowledged FACT about student tuition funding, is that the very best best BEST thing for the STUDENT AND society, is to have grants, like the pell grant. The NEXT BEST is to have DIRECT government student loans...the WORST is to have private loans...
...BUT...
the best best BEST student loan funding method, for the FINANCIAL INDUSTRY, is private student loans.
funny ... maybe, JUST MAYBE that's why we are where we are!
lexicon.
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Posted by: joeocho88 on Nov 12, 2008 3:17 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The alchemists were scoundrels not unlike the Nigerian scamsters today.Alchemists said that they could create gold out of almost anything --IF conditions were right.AND they happened to wear the robes and other regalia that you happen to see on certain academics during graduation ceremonies...
I began to question the utility of getting a college education years ago because to me it seemed like a waste of time when I really wanted to be working but it was the end of Johnson's term and the beginning of Nixon's disgraceful regime of terror.The ECONOMY was not great back then and it took me forever to find work, and only then at a series of low-budget weekly newspapers where there were NO benefits for interchangeable, dispensible, disposable people like me. I guess there were more baby boomers than the economy could assimulate so they warehoused us in schools.
I could have learned my craft on the job!
BUT THERE WERE NO JOBS!
NOW,THERE ARE ALMOST NO NEWSPAPERS!
The importance of higher education was way overstated. In the USA, it was originally to train professionals and the liberal arts was to train rich people into how to spend their money and live graciously -- like give big endowment checks to the school and to ensure they had a good time by creating Greek letter social clubs
where they could "sow their wild oats." and have a great time.Why not? They weren't going to have to worry about getting a job, their parents already had a place for them.
Ordinary working folks saw this and they made the wrong conclusions. They thought that it was the college degree alone that caused people to make the big money insted of the other way around. You really didn't need the degrees to make money at that time --you could apprentice yourself as a law clerk in a law office and read for the law and take the bar without law school. You could also apprentice to a physician or an accountant and learn on the job.
The schools of higher education lobbied the politicians well and bluffed them with the huge vocabluaries and academic mumbo jumbo ...
Sure, some working folks were able to make the tremendous financial sacrifice necessary to get the professional degrees --but at what price?
PEOPLE HAVE LOST SIGHT OF THE ORIGINAL PURPOSE OF COLLEGE AND THAT IT WAS FOR THE EDUCATION OF THE FUTURE ELITES BY THE ELITES WHO CAME FROM ELITES!
LOOK AT ALL THE MONEY PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE TAKING OUT OF YOUR LIVES NOW IN TAXES AND LOOK AT WHAT YOUR HARD-EARNED MONEY IS PRODUCING!
When Carter was President, I saw PhDs doing janitor work for the State of Texas and Masters degreed people driving cabs! The Bachelor's degreed people were flipping burgers and looking for work!
WE NEED JOBS!
HIGHER EDUCATION HAS BECOME SOMETHING OF A FICTION!
THE ONLY REASON I AM GOING TO SCHOOL IS BECAUSE I HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO GET A JOB SINCE 2002!
And every thing I have tried to major in has suddenly become OBSOLETE or there is NO DEMAND and now with the ECONOMY this bad, I have NO IDEA what will happen when I graduate from school next semester.
I AM SCARED, ANGRY and I guess my time in school merely postponed the inevitable that I will STILL be unemployed just better educated and more aware of WHY.
THIS IS A SCAM!
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» The thing that allowed America to prosper
Posted by: marid
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Posted by: catfish on Nov 12, 2008 3:50 PM
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This for-profit college is directly sucking in taxpayer dollars in the form of grants and student loans. We call it the "death star" here, it is destroying our city.
The teachers there have no benefits either.
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Posted by: gellero1 on Nov 12, 2008 4:33 PM
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The Government distorts the market.
If students have access to easy money, of course tuition will go up.
Basic economics....charge what the market will bear.
The Messiah will, of course, provide more easy money. And the situation will get worse.
Modern serfdom
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Posted by: PacificGatePost on Nov 12, 2008 4:43 PM
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An educated society is a freer society. What's happening here? The burden we are placing on our kids is unconscionable.
THE DYNAMIC OF SOVEREIGNTY
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» Remember what Goebbels told Hitler
Posted by: marid
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Posted by: avatar_singh on Nov 12, 2008 5:28 PM
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but since 1993 when the american agent manmohan singh was isntalled as finance misniter evrything had b=to be monetarized and so was education.
there alos the students have to take loan now to pay back in isntallments without intetrest.
the same way as is practices in uk and america of which countries this unelelctable prime minsiter of India is a known and proud slave.
this is the manmohan siongh who met bush in spetpembr and told him"Indians love you".
ofocurs eIndians donto love that msoty hateful person on the world called bush-but corupt bisinesslcclas and scapitalist of india liove him-that shows hwo ddegenrate the Indian capitalist class is
atlest the american capitalis class and british do talk in term of nationalism while Indians capitalistsare direct agent of foreign hostile powers.
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» RE: this disease has been imported into India through american agent manmohan singh -unelected PM.
Posted by: avatar_singh
» RE: this disease has been imported into India through american agent manmohan singh -unelected PM.
Posted by: benzene
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Posted by: Mel H. on Nov 12, 2008 7:17 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» How Dare You......
Posted by: gellero1
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Posted by: logos7 on Nov 13, 2008 12:55 AM
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Let those who can afford to go to school without loans go during this "strike" if they fail to join those who need lower costs.
The other way to pay for the educations of the students is to use the lottery money that is supposed to go for education. In California, where the lottery was established in 1984, the money raised was supposed to go for education. It NEVER has been used for education. When I repeatedly asked about this as the public schools went down the toilet, nobody seemed to know where the money went.
The office of the superintendents from the state level to the city level, were all ignorant about where the lottery money went. None of the school boards that I asked had a clue. In October I visited the State Capitol. The governator was absent so I asked someone in his office about lottery money. I was told by that person that all of the money went for prizes and ADMINISTRATION!
What a sad state of affairs we are in. Perhaps we should stop fighting among ourselves and unite to force those we have elected to govern us to do their jobs. Instead they divide us by any means they can, not the least of which is race, so that we are constantly fighting each other while they clean out the store. Isn't anyone watching? We need change.
No matter what he says, we should not expect Obama to fix all the ills of the country. We can do some things for ourselves. The congress bails out big business and sells out its citizens. We complain to each other and sit back waiting. Waiting for what?
Banks are being bailed out. Why not just not pay them and tell them in bold letters that they got theirs from Congress so we think they have been paid. (Don't do that with your mortgage. Do it with credit card debt and student loans.)
We also need to re-think about how we live our lives (before we have families to support) to save money. Forget about having a house or apartment all to yourself while you pay through the nose for utilities and rent. With banks lacking reliability, use credit unions. Stop paying for over priced items. Don't buy it if you don't need it. It is time to quit lining the pockets of the rich while we have empty ones.
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Posted by: gellero1 on Nov 13, 2008 5:26 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: School Strike??
Posted by: TheNamelessCity
» My Reality??
Posted by: gellero1
» The Democrats shipped them overseas?
Posted by: marid
» RE: The Democrats shipped them overseas?
Posted by: maglindracia
» YES: The Democrats DID ship them overseas.
Posted by: gellero1
» RE: YES: The Democrats DID ship them overseas.
Posted by: maglindracia
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Posted by: UH1Huey3113 on Nov 13, 2008 5:58 AM
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» RE: I got the Same Propaganda in the ARMY
Posted by: joeocho88
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Posted by: UH1Huey3113 on Nov 13, 2008 5:58 AM
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» The skeptic and cynic in me has to ask
Posted by: marid
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Posted by: lmwilker on Nov 13, 2008 1:46 PM
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Posted by: joeocho88 on Nov 13, 2008 3:56 PM
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I HAD TO LIVE LIKE A BUM BECAUSE MY GRANT ONLY COVERED BOOKS AND TUITION. I STUDIED AT BUS STOPS AND TRIED TO STAY WARM IN THE WINTER. I MADE THE ENORMOUS SACRIFICES THEY SAT YOU HAVE TO MAKE TO ACHIEVE THE AMERICAN DREAM!
I only need one place to live and not more than I can use.I just wanted money for the necessities. I am very thankful that I did not have any children because it would kill me to know that they would have to suffer like this.
I am trying to find a four-year school that will take my Pell money and my work-study elgibility and I can manage to change majors a few times so I will still be elgible to get the grant money which is how I have the money to eat. My clothes and other things I scavage from the trash cans and dumpsters from outside the more affluent students from the more affluent apartments!
I have not been to a dentist since 1979!
The only time I can see a doctor is if I am involved in an auto accident.
The undocumented workers here crowd all everyone else out of the health department and clinics meant for low-income and no-income people like me.
I am the first person in my family to try for any higher education. My late mother never learned to read or write. She could sign her name if I showed her where.My late father was a janitor and learned to keep books in the military in WWII so he did OK but we were always marginal. Even so, they did much better than I am ever going to do.
AND I AM ONE OF THOSE MUCH-MALIGNED BABY BOOMERS!
I NEVER USED DRUGS AND I DO NOT DRINK ALCOHOL.I HAVE NEVER BEEN CONVICTED OF A CRIME!
ALL I WANT IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO PROVE TO AN EMPLOYER WHAT I CAN DO!
It is not ANY baby boomer's fault that there were so many of us! It took a while for the War-induced prosperity of WWII to wind down. I remember Dad working at a portable taco stand until he could find more bookkeeping work.Mom came from a family of migrant farm workers. I thought I would do much better than them and be able to help them. Throughout my entire life, I NEVER made more than $24,000 per year and I wish I could make it now!
THE FEW TIMES I WOULD MANAGE TO GET ON MY FEET, A RECESSION WOULD COME ALONG AND THERE WENT MY JOB! ALL I WANTED WAS THE OPPORTUNITY BUT THE WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY FOR ME WAS ONLY THROUGH THE 1980s AND... THEN...IT...SHUT!
I have noticed since Reagan that the recessions have come closer together and each one gets more intense!
I have an infected tooth and I hope I will be able to get into the low cost dental clinic so I won't get blood poisoning like last time this happened. They pulled teeth in there and don't try to save them.
THIS IS NOT A MATTER OF ME BEING A BUM. I HAVE ALL THIS EDUCATION --WHY CAN"T I GET A JOB? WHEN I WAS YOUNGER, I WAS TOLD I HAD NO EXPERIENCE. NOW THAT I AM OLDER AND LEARNED TO DO A LOT OF THINGS WELL, AND A GREAT WORK ETHIC, I AM TOLD I AM TOO OLD AND OVERQUALIFIED!
OR I AM NOT BLACK ENOUGH. OR I DON'T SPEAK SPANISH GOOD ENOUGH. IT IS ALWAYS SOMETHING!
TOO OLD TO WORK AND TOO YOUNG FOR SOCIAL SECURITY BENEFITS!
I am sure I am not alone here...I don't know what I will do when the education money finally runs out. I STILL WON'T BE ABLE TO GET A JOB.
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Posted by: georgiaorwell on Nov 14, 2008 1:12 AM
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There are a few US programs (Fulbright, etc.) that give money for study abroad, but the requirements are so tough that almost no one can satisfy them even though they make it sound like you can.
You would almost think it has something to do with greed.
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» Parasites
Posted by: gellero1
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Posted by: CALynn on Nov 14, 2008 4:52 AM
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As a CPA, I've attended hundreds of continuing education classes over the years. The one that sticks out the most is one I attended last month - Fundamentals of Financial Analysis - where we computed the cost of a college education for little Johnny. That is , what will little Johhny pay for his first year of college in 2026? the answer - considering an annual inflation rate of 8% per year is $62,500. Of course that's absurd. Especially since colleges and universities have no business charging these enormous amounts. They have tens of millions of dollars - collectively trillions - in foundations, legacys, endowments - at their fingertips. So much money that the IRS is trying to figure out how to continue to allow the interest to be tax free!
So why the annual increase?
It's called capitalism. And the only way it works is to - us duh! - capitalize on whoever and whatever the beast needs to feed on.
And the enablers of this insanity are called "student loans".
We need to ack now to help little Johhny.
Who will step up to the plate and take the first pitch? I see that Allan from studentloandjustice.org is trying.
The belly of the beast is full of our promises to pay for the rest of our lives.
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Posted by: smchris on Nov 14, 2008 5:31 AM
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1. Either go _back_ to a more European model of free or heavily subsidized education [I'm old. I remember $7.50/credit at a state college], or
2. Get honest about America's "classless society" and promote a two-tier system for the rich and poor.
The latter is hardly unknown and has arisen in social conditions similar to the U.S. today. I believe there are many examples around the world but think of the University of London and UNISA (South Africa) as large, high-profile examples in the English-speaking world. In the U.S., there is Excelsior College. Theoretically, read enough textbooks on your own, get good enough scores on multiple Graduate Record Exam Subject Tests and you can have an accredited degree dirt cheap.
The problem with such programs is that the heavy reliance on independent motivation predictably results in extraordinary failure rates.
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Posted by: georgiaorwell on Nov 14, 2008 5:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't think it's fair to deny Americans jobs if they don't speak Spanish, thanks to the influx of Latino immigrants. I'm sorry, but this is like adding insult to injury. Had I known back when, I certainly would have taken courses in Spanish - mea culpa!
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» RE: Can't get a job if you don't speak Spanish
Posted by: maglindracia
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Posted by: doctorsquared on Nov 14, 2008 9:54 AM
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» RE: One thing that can help
Posted by: maglindracia
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Posted by: StudentLoanJusticeCA.org on Nov 14, 2008 10:42 AM
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Posted by: TiffanyO on Nov 14, 2008 12:21 PM
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Vector Marketing offers flexible hours, base pay with great commission, and career opportunities after graduation. As a Vector employee, you learn and build your communication skills, leadership abilities, goal setting and following a plan to accomplish them, and interpersonal skills. Mastering these traits will help any graduate find a great job later in life; so not only will Vector help graduates financially but also personally and professionally.
Although Vector is not for everyone, it is a great job for people who want to work hard; and as a result they will make lots of money. The bottom line is, you get what you put into it.
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Posted by: CollD on Nov 15, 2008 2:43 PM
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Our society NEEDS people with art degrees, there is nothing wrong with wanting one. Or getting one. But for someone who is fresh out of college, loans aren't really explained...not many 18 year olds really know what they are getting into...because you just sign your name. Sallie mae doesnt want to discourage you, it is a huge market for them. Its not the people with the loans who are the problem, its the institutions giving them out. 200,000 in loans? Education in American shouldn't cost that much.
I get paid far less than i thought i was going to get paid, but i somehow manage to mostly pay my loan each month. I didn't anticipate this. But I would do it all over again, because an associates degree is beneath my intelligence, and I am not going to bore myself with a business degree just because you make money in it. I fully accept paying back my loan, but the burden that is placed upon me and others is too great. There are no breaks.
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Posted by: abusedbypenguins on Nov 15, 2008 6:16 PM
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Posted by: HSencillo on Nov 17, 2008 9:27 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Monetarizing is fraud. Just because something is legal, or illegal, does not make it good. Law is first and foremost coercion and tyranny. Let's not overlook that. Law requires enforcement; that's why its a law. My life is one ruined because of these legal, enforced extortions. It has zero to do with responsibility or irresponsibility. Bad things happen to good people, firstly. Secondly, you can't squeeze blood from stones. As a taxpayer for many years, I earned the right to cash in on a higher education paid for by "the taxpayer," an image that is a total fiction. That is what being a slave is: believing the bullshit that "the taxpayer" really exists for real. We all pay taxes: parking taxes, sales taxes, income taxes, employment taxes, and on and on and on. I see zero reasons why I should not get education, training, or any other intellectual --- yes, that means using your mind and not just your hands and back---to "earn" a living. A living isn't earned, it is lived. That's why it's called a living, fer chris' sake. I buy stuff, it goes into the monetarizing mill; that's all I can do, all anyone can do. Actually do. So, this abstract bullshit about responsibility to "the taxpayer" to pay "back" what was already paid for, or will be paid for, by working is the fraud. Repeat: "the responsibility" is the fraud. Perpetrated on you, and on me, by con men and hucksters. It's not only politicians, because anyone and everyone who even thinks this way is just as caught up in the deflection game the politicians play.
I got an education. I worked for it. I used my God (or whatever)-given talents and abilities with my mind and my soul to make something good out of them. I believed in giving back, in passing that on to others in whatever ways I could. I believed wholeheartedly in the notion of getting an education. I'm so confused now, I can't begin to sort out all of the ways I've been defrauded, tricked, suborned, bribed, goaded, led on, and snowed about how "an education" was going to make the difference in my life.
I don't regret the education per se. Humans crave intellectual stimulation, no matter how simple or complex that may be. Boredom is literally a killer. That's why learning isn't entertainment. Education, on the other hand, is pure entertainment, I've come to believe. The structured environment of education is so threadbare and bankrupt it's a joke, and I know this because I have taught, and that system is a cesspool of administrators and blowhards. The teachers aren't the blowhards, the administrators and the regents and the PhEds. are the blowhards. They're sociopaths; trained sociopaths.
My student "debt" is over $90000; once I default---which is inevitable---my ass belongs to the mafia that is the "law system" revolving around that circumstance. I will NEVER get out from under this. Ever. I just fail to comprehend how anyone that spouts they're all about "creating wealth" do so by choking the possiblities of wealth out of the sources of that potential wealth. It just baffles me. Only a psychopath could harbor such belief. Creating scofflaws and criminals by enforcing extortion by using extortion is psychopathic. That is what the student loan collection and payment conditions are, beginning with the laws and the attitudes that excuse it. It's really simple: if you don't educate and train people in doing productive abstract things like art that involves imagination, you will only have ditch diggers and criminals in your society. That is by definition psychopathy.
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Posted by: HSencillo on Nov 17, 2008 9:34 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I feel for all people young and old caught up in this hell of student debt enforcement tyranny. I am one of you. I refuse to forfeit my dignity and self-respect to the enforcers of frauds.
This isn't about justice; it's about righteous anger. Realize that you own your knowledge, and that no one can take that away from you. If you've paid a reasonable amount back in money, time, or effort, default! Collectively. En masse. That will ring their bell that tyranny and extortion doesn't pay.
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Posted by: CatDad on Nov 12, 2008 12:16 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We need to gut Sallie Mae and make the government the direct lender. We need to reform BK laws to be less punitive towards defaulted student loans. We need to direct more students to skilled trades rather than assuming that EVERYONE needs a 4-year degree. Students need to be given a full disclosure of what their payments would be before they naively sign up for expensive private colleges and trade schools, which often cost $35K per year.
http://www.studentloanjustice.org/
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» education beyond high school...
Posted by: ellie
» RE: re:1chichimec1
Posted by: almendoza2
» Univ. Graduates are an artificial subsidized commodity
Posted by: TB
» RE: Univ. Graduates are an artificial subsidized commodity
Posted by: CatDad
» Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac will be the ENRON of the Democrats
Posted by: Libertarian Paternalist
» More trash Right Wing mythology
Posted by: CatDad
» We Can't All Make the Grade
Posted by: Libertarian Paternalist
» RE: We Can't All Make the Grade
Posted by: Buck_Turgisson
» RE: Listen, suckers--er--students
Posted by: Koondog
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Nov 12, 2008 1:12 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why has there been no investigation into why higher ed costs have inflated at easily double the inflation rate year after year for a couple of decades now? Why are schools staffed with so may 'Professors' that do not teach? Why do schools continue to build student centers that look like the local mall and dump the costs upon the student fee structure? Why is almost every school milking the students for every spare dime they can possibly extract from them?
Since most of thee institutions are public, they are ultimately answerable not to boards of Profs or Alumni- they are answerable to the citizens that actually own the schools. It's time that someone tells those running public universities that they need to plan and run these institutions as gateways for our citizens to acquire the training, knowledge and skills necessary to contribute to, enrich and participate in the society. That mission needs to be done in a fiscally responsible way.
Enormous State University will never be Harvard, Stanford or Duke. They need to stop chasing a moving target of amenities and high profile Professors that do not teach and get on with their real role- affordable education for the many.
Our nation does not need more gold-plated dormitories or multi-hundred million dollar stadium expansions at the price of an increasingly unaffordable education that is almost a necessity to earn even a minimally livable wage. On campus food bars with Starbucks are not worth pricing countless young American students out of the opportunity for an education.
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» consider funding for a moment
Posted by: wolfgangmo
» RE: You're absolutley right.
Posted by: Cybershaman
» Specific Example
Posted by: benzene
» U of M is Not Typical
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE:Professors that *do* teach...
Posted by: Sushi
» RE:...and another rip off
Posted by: Sushi
» We Need A Public Education System For Higher Education
Posted by: jooljetkmae
» RE: We Need A Public Education System For Higher Education
Posted by: login@bugmenot.com
» RE: We Need A Public Education System For Higher Education
Posted by: rickiey
» Let's Start With "Me, Too" Degrees
Posted by: femmyv
» IF they can even get in...
Posted by: jmoore
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Nov 12, 2008 1:18 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I assume college is more expensive even at state schools than it was when I went, and financial aid is less generous. But I still think there's this romantic idea that you have to go to your dream college at all costs, live in the dorms, spend all your spare cash on partying, and live the college "experience" that they advertise in the glossies.
Looking back, the smartest thing might have been to go to community college straight out of high school, go to a 4 year for my junior and senior years, and maybe even take a few courses through independent learning and examination. I could probably have gone to a better 4-year school, because I wouldn't have to compete with a bunch of college-hungry freshmen for all the freshman spots, and I would only have to pay for two years. Or else I could have gotten an associate's degree, get two years of work experience, and get tuition assistance from work to complete my 4-year degree, or something like that.
I suppose that doesn't address the bigger question of educating our workforce affordably, or those who choose law or medicine. But as a practical matter, I think there are alternatives for individuals who are willing to forego the picture-perfect college "experience", which I think is a big racket.
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» RE: College
Posted by: mary-alias
» Talk to a bankruptcy lawyer first.
Posted by: wolfgangmo
» RE: Talk to a bankruptcy lawyer first.
Posted by: Cybershaman
» That's exactly it: who you know, not what you know.
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
» Yes and no
Posted by: benzene
» College education IS possible
Posted by: wdfisgoingon?
» RE: College
Posted by: Deep
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Posted by: minmotstand on Nov 12, 2008 2:29 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are also ones that teach in English and cost upwards of $10,000. However, several are much cheaper.
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» RE: Tuition in Europe
Posted by: minmotstand
» RE: Tuition in Europe
Posted by: anu
» RE: California ...
Posted by: Cybershaman
» You would think folks who read adam smith...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: You would think folks who read adam smith...
Posted by: laoma
» RE: Tuition in Europe
Posted by: benzene
» RE: Tuition in Europe
Posted by: songbird1268
Comments are closed-
Posted by: gunboat diplomat on Nov 12, 2008 2:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is the neocon wet dream, domestically speaking: a dumbed-down and easily manipulated population ruled over by a well-educated but tightly disciplined elite.
It's nothing but ideology. The simple fact is that their is a kind of aristocratic heirarchy within American education and society. If your parents are very wealthy and you are at least presentable, then you go to schools like Stanford and Harvard and Yale where you make the personal connections that will serve you well later in life.
The middle-class college education experience used to be similar, but without the Ivy and the high-flying connections. State schools and public universities were the backbone of this larger system, which boomed in the post WWII years as the government realized the rising importance of science in global affairs, as well as the need for a highly educated public. Keep in mind, there was a time when one could get a good blue-collar job in the U.S. with no more than a high school education. Those jobs are now either in China and Mexico, or require a good deal more education.
This period came to an end in the early 90s, after financial interests got involved in government-sponsored college loan programs. Every other industrialized country provides free college education, or at least low-cost education, but the U.S. has to give Wall Street a big fat gift in the form of decades of college loan payments ... or maybe it's that some sectors of the U.S. government and the aristocratic class would prefer it if only some people were highly educated?
A more likely explanation is that the U.S. academic system is being destroyed by corruption and greed, at multiple levels, most well out of the view of the public eye, and it's been going on ever since the early years of the Reagan Administration. That's more likely than the population-control conspiracy theories, I think.
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» In my former grad program,...
Posted by: photon's feather
» RE: A deliberate effort to dumb down the American public?
Posted by: vkobaya1
» The "invisible hand" in action.
Posted by: SteveO
» RE: A deliberate effort to dumb down the American public?
Posted by: DHopper
» Hey, eternal war costs!
Posted by: kegbot1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rickiey on Nov 12, 2008 3:15 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lets be honest, there are two types of degrees. One type qualifies you to do a job, the other makes you interesting. But not both.
Students need to be directed to a realistic degree that will help them be EMPLOYED, instead of "counselors" asking "what is your dream job?" regardless of whether or not it is a realistic post-graduation proposition.
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» RE: Lets take a look at what the degree is:
Posted by: phoenixrising
» How many of any profession do we need?
Posted by: SteveO
» The job you love
Posted by: rugger
» RE: That's right...
Posted by: Cybershaman
» That is the gist.
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
» RE: The job you love
Posted by: lissajayne
» RE: The job you love
Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: The job you love
Posted by: lissajayne
» Let's look at Rickiey's agenda
Posted by: wolfgangmo
» RE: Let's look at Rickiey's agenda
Posted by: Shehova
» RE: Let's look at Rickiey's agenda
Posted by: BeckyD
» So drafting kids to the military is your solution to financing higher education?
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Let's look at Rickiey's agenda
Posted by: rickiey
» Don't Undervalue an Arts Degree
Posted by: Deep
» No kidding. I have an arts degree.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» arts degree too but let's face it when the economy tanks the arts are the first to suffer.
Posted by: the baron
» Linguist Here
Posted by: nen
» RE: Linguist Here
Posted by: rickiey
» RE: Lets take a look at what the degree is:
Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» RE: Lets take a look at what the degree is:
Posted by: rickiey
» RE: Lets take a look at what the degree is:
Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» RE: Lets take a look at what the degree is:
Posted by: Blondinista
» Stop trashing art degrees
Posted by: Blondinista
» RE: Stop trashing art degrees
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Stop trashing art degrees
Posted by: Blondinista
» The road less traveled
Posted by: mcubed
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Bobsays on Nov 12, 2008 3:15 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
God bless union bumping rights and other malevolent tools to screw young people out of opportunity and wealth. The problem is generational: the boomers have set the system up to make sure that the young never get a break, ever.
My advice? Never, ever get in debt: ever. No degree is worth it except a medical degree (doctors are never unemployed). As for everyone else, don't do it. Instead, spend your time coming up with business ideas and acting on them. A much better use of your time than mixing lattes for idiot yuppies. We live in a dishonest, back-stabby society: get used to it.
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» RE: Broken record, broken society
Posted by: PJAW
» Broken
Posted by: kepstein7777
» RE: Broken
Posted by: Yankeeinexile
» RE: Broken record, broken society
Posted by: Cybershaman
» ...No degree is worth it....
Posted by: xvictor
» If you are a woman...
Posted by: Bobsays
» RE: If you are a woman...
Posted by: 6ndi333
» RE: If you are a woman...
Posted by: 6ndi333
» A couple years ago I saw a listing for a warehouse delivery driver job, hauling bread,
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
» the boomers have set the system
Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» yeah great advice...
Posted by: rafaeltoral
» True dat!
Posted by: Bobsays
Comments are closed-
Posted by: NthnBrazil on Nov 12, 2008 3:27 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That is not only insane, its just stupid. And its only the most convenient example since its in the article. I know (and you probably do too) plenty of people in this same situation.
I think the fact that we collectively give a pass to people who foolishly buy degrees that will never pay them enough to cover the cost needs to change. We malign people who spend hundreds on get-rich-quick seminars on how to buy no-money-down properties, but if someone gets a $75K degree in social work, we curse the system.
And speaking about that system, how about the law of supply and demand? Ask any high school guidance counselor and they will tell you how there is no such thing as "college isn't for you" anymore. Even straight D students dilligently fill out applications and clog the seats at community and state schools. It should be no mystery why a college degree today has the same beneift as a high school degree did 35 years ago in terms of job opportunity and upward mobility, except now we pay through the nose for the last 4 years of school in a system that needs to serve a much higher percentage of the 18-21 year old population than it was ever intended to.
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» RE: Shock/Awe: Bad decisions magnified in tough times
Posted by: dannrusso
» RE: Shock/Awe: Bad decisions magnified in tough times
Posted by: NthnBrazil
» RE: Shock/Awe: Bad decisions magnified in tough times
Posted by: benzene
» Starting in the 80's America dismantled the unions.
Posted by: wolfgangmo
» Apprenticeship
Posted by: kepstein7777
» RE: Apprenticeship
Posted by: Cybershaman
» Someone actually gave you a "5" for this tripe??
Posted by: 6399
» Maybe they realize there are 2 separate lines of thought here
Posted by: NthnBrazil
» RE: Maybe they realize there are 2 separate lines of thought here
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
» Why is it an either/or choice? You seem to have a bit of a strawman there. . .
Posted by: NthnBrazil
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Scott on Nov 12, 2008 3:50 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Scott
Posted by: phoenixrising
» RE: Scott
Posted by: Cybershaman
» we are "saving those for illegals" because...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» "I forgot those are the jobs we are saving for the illegals"
Posted by: xvictor
» sorry bud...
Posted by: rafaeltoral
» So the electricians and plumbers and foundation repair people commute from China when you call them?
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
» RE: So the electricians and plumbers and foundation repair people commute from China when you call them?
Posted by: maglindracia
Comments are closed-
Posted by: terradea42 on Nov 12, 2008 4:00 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I, too, sent out hundreds of resumes (I saved every one). I am too old (late 40s), according to some of the people I spoke with. I wonder every day what will happen to me if I lose my job, which today, is VERY likely.
And, I am not alone. There are MANY young people in the same boat who graduated with me. And who owe the same amount. It scares me.
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» RE: I owe nearly $200,000 in student loans.
Posted by: rugger
» RE: I owe nearly $200,000 in student loans.
Posted by: phoenixrising
» RE:loan forgiveness
Posted by: astudent
» RE: loan forgiveness
Posted by: maglindracia
» And don't you have a job?
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: And don't you have a job?
Posted by: maglindracia
» RE: I owe nearly $200,000 in student loans.
Posted by: georgiaorwell
» RE: I owe nearly $200,000 in student loans.
Posted by: QuestionAuthority
» Scientists
Posted by: benzene
» It's amazing
Posted by: kegbot1
» RE: I owe nearly $200,000 in student loans.
Posted by: Mira615
» RE: I owe nearly $200,000 in student loans.
Posted by: maglindracia
» RE: I owe nearly $200,000 in student loans.
Posted by: maxpayne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: phoenixrising on Nov 12, 2008 4:19 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However, it needs to be pushed.
See
http://www.finaid.org/loans/publicservice.phtml
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» RE: Student Loan Debt Relief
Posted by: georgiaorwell
» Read it again
Posted by: wolfgangmo
» Since this requires 10 years straight of fulltime work it won't help most people
Posted by: Callibrarian
» RE: Since this requires 10 years straight of fulltime work it won't help most people
Posted by: georgiaorwell
» RE: Student Loan Debt Relief
Posted by: Mira615
Comments are closed-
Posted by: PJAW on Nov 12, 2008 4:32 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We're at a point now, where the resources that have created this current boom have peaked and will begin to deplete with increasing rapidity. Oil is probably the major resource upon which we have built this house of cards, but water is likely to become our most urgent need in a short time.
The old jobs are not coming back and the new jobs, assuming we have enough resources left to bridge to a new economic base, have not been created as yet. Tough times are ahead, but we knew that 8 years ago (hell 30 years ago) and what did we do? We put an idiot in charge, broke out the credit card, and partied like there's no tomorrow. Except here it is, tomorrow. Now the frat boys who lead the drinking games are back home enjoying all the benefits of the crony club, while you and I have a hangover and a bar tab. The next decade promises to be interesting.
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» RE: Too easy too long
Posted by: willymack
» RE: Too easy too long
Posted by: maglindracia
Comments are closed-
Posted by: georgiaorwell on Nov 12, 2008 4:32 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is an enormous financial, personal disaster and an almost impossible loan to pay back for most American citizens. Most European universities are outstanding schools, yet they charge minimal tuitions; many, also, do loan forgiveness after several years.
There will be those who think that students should not have gotten into this situation, but that's ridiculous. The US apparently loves bailing out irresponsible entities like Lehman Brothers and AIG plus spending billions of dollars on an unauthorized war against an enemy that did not cause 9/11. There may even be a likely bailout of the auto industry not to mention a bailout of many homeowners who bought and then lost their jobs.
Why take just a harsh line with those who seek an education? While we're at it, American colleges and universities are extremely overpriced compared to other western countries Should we also abolish all humanities programs and only offer MBAs, Engineering, Computer, or Medical degrees - it seems like those are the only jobs offered throughout the country anyway. I see jobs listed that I can't figure out what degree you would have to have to get them. Also, if you're a new graduate, most jobs only want you to apply if you have 5-7 years experience. Is the whole education/jobs thing a hoax? It appears so.
One last thing: I'm a firm believer in vocational training, but half the vocational schools haven't been listed as 'loan acceptable' so they don't count for obtaining loans. Additionally, many of these loans come back at you with enormously high interest rates.
The Department of Education has been described as using gestapo like tactics in trying to ruin your life if you miss a payment or default on your loan. I don't know about you, but people who jump out of windows or kill themselves and their families because they lost their shirts in the stock market are no different than those who cannot pay back their student loans and who cannot pay their rents or buy food. Something must be done for those who are in this situation whether we like it or not. Then change the process for those in the future who wish to seek an education.
Congress could help with this; one program they have started, though, only counts for those who start paying after 2007 - insane.
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» RE: Something absolutely must be done!
Posted by: georgiaorwell
Comments are closed-
Posted by: taxidriver on Nov 12, 2008 4:44 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They provide national service--their debt is paid
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» RE: How about this?
Posted by: socialpsych
» RE: How about this?
Posted by: Live Gently
» RE: How about this?
Posted by: lefty010
» RE: How about this?
Posted by: nen
» Here's Another Suggestion
Posted by: FP2U
» RE: How about this?
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: How about this?
Posted by: maglindracia
Comments are closed-
Posted by: photon's feather on Nov 12, 2008 4:49 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I complained about the utter incometence of the head of my grad program, as well as medical fraud and malpractice; and some kid told me that I ought to have done a better job checking out the school, nd that I could hire a lawyer for the malpractice (what ignorance!). Though I told her this was a fully-accredited program at a fully accredited state university, not tendbar.com, she didn't see that as relevant. (She was supposed to be a supervisor, to whom my call was forwarded when I objected to that very response from the rep that answered the phone - but she sounded about 16 years old.)
2. If you default, it will indeed destroy your credit report (as mentioned), but how many people realize that a bad credit rating significantly reduces your chances of being employed?
In addition, loan deferrals gotten for reasons of illness are also limited, even if your disability persists after your deferments run out; plus, your loan continues to rack up interest charges, even if disability is the reason for the deferral(s). "Permanent disability" is a dicey area, too.
Some universities' goal seems to be self-perpetuation, serving everyone but the students.
The entire education industry is rigged in so many ways that it is just unbelievable.
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Posted by: hepkats on Nov 12, 2008 5:07 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"But there were two things she hadn't counted on. The first was the $75,000 in nonsubsidized federal student loans she'd have to take out for tuition and those living expenses her part-time jobs selling hotdogs and making lattes couldn't cover."
She hadn't counted on the cost of tuition and living expenses?
I think our current education system is horrible. I think we lag behind every other major democracy in our treatment of education.
However, that doesn't excuse someone from not doing things as basic as factoring in tuition and the cost of living. That's irresponsible.
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Posted by: mary-alias on Nov 12, 2008 5:26 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» No... we just want to get rid of predatory lending practices...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Me too
Posted by: Karina
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Posted by: harryf200 on Nov 12, 2008 5:41 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: nobody4prez on Nov 12, 2008 6:10 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Your government loans are deferred, but you still have to pay the interest.
2. Any private loans may or may not be deferred.
3. Perkins Loans receive 15% cancellation per year.
As a Ph.d. candidate and instructor at a state institution, I have to say:
1. University education should be free; there's very little reason it couldn't be (if we can afford universal K-12 public education, surely we can afford 4 to 6 years of tertiary education for another 50% of the population).
2. There is no real need for there to be a quality difference between state universities and private ones. A lot of important research is being done at many Tier I state schools (universities with research programs). It's not that expensive (compared, say, to a major company or military base) to operate a university, and even full professors aren't exactly overpaid: most of the profs I know do 50 hours per week of teaching, supervision, administration, service, and research, PLUS another 15-20 hours per week working on their own research -- publish or perish, right? -- all for an average $50k per year...
3. The benefits to society and private industry are enormous, and those benefits are largely given away -- by making undergrads pay for them. Who benefits when someone at my schools invents a new way to make carbon nanotubes, develops a new crop variety, or figures out a cheaper, safer, better way to design a medical device? Who picked up the bill?
By the way, multinationals pay universities a lot of money for the right to operate and/or sell their product on campus. For example, all soft drinks sold anywhere on my university's grounds come from Coca Cola or a subsidiary. There's no Starbuck's on campus, but they'd probably be willing to pay a pretty penny to do so.
Scandalous. American priorities are seriously twisted.
Click here to see the Peace Corps page on student loans.
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» RE: The Peace Corps and Student Debt
Posted by: Yankeeinexile
» My Original Comment
Posted by: NoPCZone
» Great post
Posted by: kegbot1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: BobS on Nov 12, 2008 6:23 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One of the slogans of today's student activists is "Money for Tuition...Not Ammunition." The poor decision making and bad financial planning came from a political leadership that preferred greed and empire over an educated populace.
Students who work hard in school are raising our collective intelligence as a nation. We should be standing by their side in solidarity against this exploitation.
Full disclosure: I have three college degrees all of which came from the generous financial aid and subsidies that were once available. I first entered college in 1965.
I had some debt after my B.A. which I paid off easily in 2 years. My last degree was an MA in history done at night over a period of 5 years. No debt thanks to the fact that the working class university I attended was inexpensive as late as the early 1980's.
Bob Simpson
The BobboSphere
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» RE: Why are so many of the commenters against education?
Posted by: BeckyD
» A Degree In Illustration? Please!
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: A Degree In Illustration? Please!
Posted by: wmm
» RE: A Degree In Illustration? Please!
Posted by: BobS
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Bob Graham Las Vegas on Nov 12, 2008 7:15 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
IMHO , Military service is the best as most young peole lack self discipline and is noticed in the high debt of so many. I hope he institutes a "No one excluded draft" where even former "4F" categories get desk jobs at the minimum and elitist children are especially included as opposed to the old way of exempting them.
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» amazing idea....
Posted by: rafaeltoral
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Posted by: nicolecepr on Nov 12, 2008 7:18 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Young people earning less, despite being better educated
Posted by: Cybershaman
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Posted by: JeffVincent on Nov 12, 2008 7:22 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I knew at the time I signed the student loans (again and again) that I would be responsible and make my repayments but with a looming depression, college costs only going higher, and high schools ill preparing students, what I didn't figure was the cost to my children.
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Posted by: Romantic Violence on Nov 12, 2008 7:26 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1789
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Posted by: maxpayne on Nov 12, 2008 7:33 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: eeezzz on Nov 12, 2008 7:42 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: therese kovach on Nov 12, 2008 7:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I also STRONGLY agree that one of the basic issues here is that the COSTS of higher education are OUT OF BALANCE with the wages and salaries that MOST people make. I am 58 years old, and still owe $80,000 in student loans: I will go to my grave with this massive debt always over my head, even though I make timely monthly payments! I have been unable to make the payments that the student loan collections people demand, so I face ongoing fines and penalties, plus interest on all of this.It also appears that my loans have been 'sold' over the years to other carriers, with additional fees for this slapped onto my debt. My credit has long ago been ruined; I can never get a mortgage loan, or even a loan to buy a used car. ( I have a PHD in counseling psychology.) Over the years, I have paid off my Bachelor's degree, and a Masters in Art Therapy. During the 1980's, when I divorced and became a single parent, I could only earn in the low $20,000 at mental health centers. I therefore decided to go for the doctorate, hoping that this would increase my earning potential, as well as broaden my skills in the field. Unfortunately, I have never been able to earn more than $40,000: and this is WITHOUT any type of health insurance , sick/vacation time or any other benefits.
I would also like to note that frequently, the jobs that PAY the MOST require the LEAST education. An example: a relative of mine landed a job 20 years with an investment company, and she had not even finished her Bachelor's- she did go on to a get a CFA certification. However, her salary has been almost 10 times what I have ever made. MY POINT: this society needs to value those professions that contribute to the direct health and well-being of the citizens. Certainly education in these areas should be FREE. I have spent my life working hard with the mentally ill, as well as troubled children and families, yet have had to face the extreme anxiety of a huge debt hanging over my head for most of my life!
So, please don't believe that this issue is just affecting the young: I am one of those 'boomers' that have not made it in america...Please don't let the power structure try to divide us: young against old: we are all in the same boat, and this problem has ONLY GOTTEN WORSE as even more jobs disappear. This is an important part in the very core of the crisis in american society.
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Posted by: grtindenim on Nov 12, 2008 8:01 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Loan forgiveness
Posted by: nobody4prez
» RE: Loan forgiveness
Posted by: grtindenim
» RE: Loan forgiveness
Posted by: georgiaorwell
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Danakitty on Nov 12, 2008 8:11 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I was 16. I had saved $3,000 in the bank from working numerous after school jobs, and I was convinced that my hard work ethic and intelligence would be enough to get me by. Sure, I knew I'd have loans to pay -- everyone talked about loans. But no one mentioned that the interest rates could double or even triple the amount I'd actually end up paying. No one told me that the economy was heading for a slump and there wouldn't be jobs for me. No one told me the newspaper industry (of which I got my degree) was collapsing because of the failure to keep up with the Internet.
Those were all things I learned IN COLLEGE. And I graduated in three years, having graduated high school with 20 transferable credits and taken summer courses at a cheap community college. I saved money, but not much.
When I was growing up, there was no question of IF I would go to college. I most certainly was. I had to go, or else I would end up a blue collar worker making minimum wage. At 16, when I sent out applications to colleges across the country, I looked for those that had the best programs, best teachers (those experienced in their field), and best opportunities. I didn't look at the price tag because I was told my education would pay for itself.
Anyway... I just wanted to let people know to stop blaming teenagers for making bad financial decisions. Most of them have only worked one or two jobs (if that) and never had to pay bills or manage more than a savings account. You honestly can't expect them to be at fault for believing the lies society has told them about education paying for itself or that everyone has to go to college.
And for the record, I'm not sorry I went to college. And I'm well aware I'm going to be paying for it for the rest of my life.
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» Do These Teens Have Parents & Other Family?
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: Do These Teens Have Parents & Other Family?
Posted by: EcoFemme
» They Had A Major
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: Stop blaming the youth-time to raise a little hell
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: symcokid on Nov 12, 2008 8:48 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: gingit1234 on Nov 12, 2008 9:19 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: weslen1 on Nov 12, 2008 9:23 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Since then I have made payments each month and never received a dime of credit for any of them. They took a tax refund once of $1184.00 and added $1184.00 in fees and interest, canceling out the entire payment. The tax stimulus I was entitled to of $300 went to them as well. I received NO credit for that and was told they didn't have to credit that because it was not a VOLUNTARY PAYMENT. I am 60 yrs old and will continue to pay every month for the rest of my life and not one dime of the now $7000 + that I owe will ever be paid. I am disabled and they can garnish the $300 a month social security disability check I receive if I miss a single payment. The student loan industry is a scam and has been ever since it was privatized.
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Posted by: colinmeister on Nov 12, 2008 9:27 AM
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How can any sane person elect to borrow money to study when they have no idea of what they want to learn, and what to do with the education they receive? America already seems to be dumbed down.
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» RE: College is not an end in itself.
Posted by: bellydonna
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Posted by: penobscotdziekuje@yahoo.com on Nov 12, 2008 9:37 AM
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First, I was lucky to avoid acquiring an enormous student loan. I knew with a journalist salary it would take years to pay it off.
I know that many college students will graduate owing at least more than $30,000 or more in debt. It hangs over a person like an invisible dark spectre. You think getting those evening collection calls is irksome? It's only the beginning.
Debt is a financial killer on earnings. It automatically cancels the ability to save and plan for a solid financial future free from debt. It's the constant variable like X in an algebraic expressions used to solve a problem.
We can understand that some debt is necessary: a car or mortgage payment, doctor bills, but how can we solve the gnawing college debt debacle?
How about a free college education? Could the Feds get involved? Can they devise a plan to make college more affordable?
We hear stories about how today's teens and some families don't have the dough to go to college; and with a shrinking job market, it will be hard to garner the skills needed to snare a good paying job. As we saw from the article, we graduate with a degree in debt. We're then forced to take a job where the pay barely covers the basics to get by. I've done it. I had three jobs in college and I was a full-time student. (For the record, I attended Cal State Northridge. And today tuition is roughly $2,000 for six units or more; not including room and board, books, lab fees, etc. It can soar to $8,000 per semester. How are those students doing it?)
I am concerned for students. The alternative is to attend a two-year school, or junior college, but if you have to go that route acquiring your bachelors might take longer and the price of a four-year school will climb while you labor at the JC. This all depends on fate as well.
One last item: avoid using credit cards if possible. Don't fall into that chasm.
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Posted by: bellydonna on Nov 12, 2008 9:39 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Arts degrees and critical thinking
Posted by: maglindracia
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Posted by: chrisv on Nov 12, 2008 10:05 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If, as you claim, you truly have no or few assets, you might reconsider sending _anything_ to the rapacious loan companies. The maximum that can be garnished from wages/Social Security is 15% of _disposable_ income. In California, at least, the way it's done is that income up to a certain amount is exempted when the monthly garnishment is calculated. Oh, income tax refunds are also seized (at 100%).
However, even that amount is subject to a judge's approval, meaning that the loan company must take you to court to get whatever minimal amount you could afford to pay. If your income is so low, it may not even be worth it to the company to send a lawyer to court to sue you. If you receive a sympathetic hearing (meaning a judge who actually _reviews_ your income vs. expense ratio) the amount awarded may very well be lower than 15% of disposable income.
No, this is not to suggest that people shirk their fiduciary duties. If you took the loan out, you should pay it back- or suffer consequences. But the thing is, at some point the consequences have to END.
Sending a company which makes billions of dollars annually $50/month in perpetuity will do nothing to help your financial picture and is nothing except a life sentence for you.
Perhaps it is clear that this is an issue I'm thinking a lot about, as I'm a freelance musician with $40K in loan debt myself. No, I have no links, but what I said above is accurate to the best of my knowledge.
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» RE: Drips and drabs will do nothing but further impoverish you
Posted by: maglindracia
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Posted by: 6399 on Nov 12, 2008 10:11 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In my case, the university where I taught proved to be nothing short of a training ground for budding electrical engineers who daily assisted the US government in its efforts to create ever more sophisticated military weaponry. The grants my alma mater was accustomed to accepting were positively staggering in size, and yet students continued shelling out tens of thousands for an academic experience that succeeded in churning out cyborgs with limited social skills and entirely deficient language capabilities.
The problem is not with students seeking degreess and positions that do not offer considerable remuneration. The problem is that people spend far too much on an education that should cost half as much, or less. No one should have to beg, borrow and steal their way to a small fortune that is absorbed by an overpriced education.
The world needs history teachers and philosophers. Art history buffs and museum curators. Now maybe the rest of us aren't as discriminating and refined as yourself, but I fear a world populated solely by marketers, attorneys, accountants, stock brokers and commodities traders.
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Posted by: wmm on Nov 12, 2008 10:13 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And no this does not pertain to Junior College or joining the marines.
Seriously if higher education costs continue to go up who will be this country's engineers, doctors, scientist, architects, software developers, writers, economists, lawyers, etc? It's already begun and soon we'll have to rely completlely on foreign nationals to do these jobs.
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» RE: I'm shocked by the response here!
Posted by: EcoFemme
» RE: I'm shocked by the response here!
Posted by: TheNamelessCity
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Posted by: cj21 on Nov 12, 2008 10:16 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Given that the majority of student loans are held by those of us not fresh out of school, any help or changes to the student loan industry should cover ALL loan holders, not just the recent ones.
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» RE: Why only focus on new grads?
Posted by: georgiaorwell
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Posted by: EcoFemme on Nov 12, 2008 10:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I almost went 25,000 into debt for a nursing degree but I changed my mind on nursing and the four year college route.
I am now on a tuititon scholarship at a community college and I don't regret it for a second. I am saving lots of money.
I know some people can't even afford community college but it's a lot cheaper than a four year school. Plus a lot of times the two year colleges have agreements with four year schools and you can get your tuition paid for depending on your GPA.
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Posted by: writerman on Nov 12, 2008 10:37 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can see why the poor are there, but what about the super-rich, what are they for exactly, what purpose do they have, do we need them?
We should decide what a person needs to have an acceptable standard of living and the state should pay that some to everyone, no more and no less. Equality in action.
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» RE: Share the Pain, Share the Wealth!
Posted by: mikepeino
» RE: Share the Pain, Share the Wealth!
Posted by: yesman
» From each according to his ability to each according to his need.
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
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Posted by: shaynafay on Nov 12, 2008 10:54 AM
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Posted by: catfish on Nov 12, 2008 10:59 AM
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- A Fine Arts degree does not guarantee you a job.
- A college degree does not guarantee you a job.
- Not everybody loves their job or has the job of their dreams.
- President Obama will not eradicate disease or eliminate poverty from the face of this earth.
- Academy of Art University is very expensive and is a luxury school, not the most practical choice.
There is a college-industrial complex in this country and it's growing like a death star. College kids cannot write basic essays. We need to improve education in the early years instead of playing catchup in the college years.
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Posted by: boatgod on Nov 12, 2008 11:06 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.forbes.com/free_forbes/1998/1228/6214104a.html
Average wages, inflation adjusted, were higher when American has only a 5% college graduation rate than wages inflation adjusted to today. Putting more people through college has not improved economic prospects, it has done the opposite, and has landed a lot of college graduates into debt for perpetuity.
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» RE: Boatgod
Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» True to a point
Posted by: marid
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Posted by: mikepeino on Nov 12, 2008 11:08 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: This isn't always what you get with government
Posted by: Cybershaman
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Posted by: deeperbeats on Nov 12, 2008 11:32 AM
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Posted by: Libertarian Paternalist on Nov 12, 2008 12:05 PM
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Charles Murray in his new book dispels the myths about higher education and what he calls Educational romanticism, the notion that if there are only more and higher taxes to fund education every child will be able be able to a college degree. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Half of the students are below average ability and only about 10 % should have the full higher educational experience, the rest should go to vocational school or other forms of schooling and instead of havening a B.A to get a job they should take ability test to see if they qualify i.e like the CPA exams, legal Bar exams. Studies have showed that even though the US taxpayer has spent trillions of dollars in doing it, the ability has not been significantly raised.
Mr Murray writes and I cannot but agree:
For now, it is enough to recognize that educational romanticism asks too much from students at the bottom of the intellectual pile, asks the wrong things from those in the middle, and asks too little from those at the top. It short-changes all of them.
Real Education: Four Simple Truths for Bringing America's Schools Back to Reality, Charles Murray
1. Ability varies. Children differ in their ability to learn academic material. Doing our best for every child requires, above all else, that we embrace that simplest of truths. America's educational system does its best to ignore it.
2. Half of the children are below average. Many children cannot learn more than rudimentary reading and math. Real Education reviews what we know about the limits of what schools can do and the results of four decades of policies that require schools to divert huge resources to unattainable goals.
3. Too many people are going to college. Almost everyone should get training beyond high school, but the number of students who want, need, or can profit from four years of residential education at the college level is a fraction of the number of young people who are struggling to get a degree. We have set up a standard known as the BA, stripped it of its traditional content, and made it an artificial job qualification. Then we stigmatize everyone who doesn't get one. For most of America's young people, today's college system is a punishing anachronism.
4. America's future depends on how we educate the academically gifted. An elite already runs the country, whether we like it or not. Since everything we watch, hear, and read is produced by that elite, and since every business and government department is run by that elite, it is time to start thinking about the kind of education needed by the young people who will run the country. The task is not to give them more advanced technical training, but to give them an education that will make them into wiser adults; not to pamper them, but to hold their feet to the fire.
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» Cool
Posted by: kepstein7777
» The meaning of average
Posted by: marid
» RE: We Can't All Make the Grade. too many people go to college
Posted by: maglindracia
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Posted by: drfun on Nov 12, 2008 12:40 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My high school classmates used to think I was stupid, not wanting to go to college or over the past few years get into the ever-increasing real estate market scam.
I wanted as little as possible to contribute the MIC economy the USA thrives on, by choice.
Many accuse me of being un-motivated, as they run around the self made maze of "responsibility" they created for themselves.
While I listen to them complain about commuting, their debt obligations that are killing them, their tuned-out children they can't connect with and little free time to enjoy life.
I'm debt free, and have no obligations to children who will inherit a damaged and deranged world.
We all make choices in life, many just choose the wrong choice and should look in the mirror before pointing fingers anywhere else.
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» RE: You have only yourself to blame NOT TRUE
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» Praise be to
Posted by: marid
» RE: You have only yourself to blame
Posted by: georgiaorwell
» RE: You have only yourself to blame
Posted by: SammySpammy
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Nov 12, 2008 12:45 PM
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Posted by: bluepilgrim on Nov 12, 2008 1:25 PM
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With some careful management and cuttting killing people and maintaining a military empire we could educate most everyone for free, and have an 'intellectual empire'.
We listened to the 'conservatives' and are doing it all wrong. We are blowing all our wealth on greedy banksters and war mongers.
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» RE: Iraq war
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: yesman on Nov 12, 2008 2:13 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So, education should be free for any student to any level that they can achieve. All student loan debt should be cancelled immediately, and all public colleges and universities should have free tuition. The only restriction on education should be the student's own capabilities and motivation.
Why should we spend $700 billion to bail out Wall Street gamblers, and yet saddle students with crippling amounts of debt just because they wanted to get an education? The Wall Street crooks and con men (as well as other corporate shysters) should have their ill-gotten gains seized (or at least heavily taxed) to pay for public education (as well as many other common necessities).
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Posted by: lexicon on Nov 12, 2008 2:20 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When a loan is guaranteed by the government, it becomes just another form of money. Those loans are bundled, securitized, and sold out into the bond market.
So, the thing is, the guaranteed student loan program, while being helpful for students looking for tuition money, is really a way to create an asset-based securities market.
Sound familiar?
The reason I call it "assets" instead of debts, is because of that government guarantee.
Once a "guarantor" blesses the loan, it's as good as money. If the borrower defaults, the government pays. (at typically 95%). So, a student loan guarantee is more like a credit default swap than anything else. You default, the government buys back the loan.
Actually, the guarantor does, using government money. THen it tries to collect. IF it can't it sends the loan eventually to the Dept of Education (actually, they have a delegated agency to accept these "dead" loans).
And the original lender? it has the money back.
The very interesting thing is, that when I worked at a student loan guarantor, who do you imagine they considered their "customer" to be?
The student? sort of...not really.
The school? yes.
The lender? yes.
The bond market? most certainly.
The absolute most acknowledged FACT about student tuition funding, is that the very best best BEST thing for the STUDENT AND society, is to have grants, like the pell grant. The NEXT BEST is to have DIRECT government student loans...the WORST is to have private loans...
...BUT...
the best best BEST student loan funding method, for the FINANCIAL INDUSTRY, is private student loans.
funny ... maybe, JUST MAYBE that's why we are where we are!
lexicon.
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Posted by: joeocho88 on Nov 12, 2008 3:17 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The alchemists were scoundrels not unlike the Nigerian scamsters today.Alchemists said that they could create gold out of almost anything --IF conditions were right.AND they happened to wear the robes and other regalia that you happen to see on certain academics during graduation ceremonies...
I began to question the utility of getting a college education years ago because to me it seemed like a waste of time when I really wanted to be working but it was the end of Johnson's term and the beginning of Nixon's disgraceful regime of terror.The ECONOMY was not great back then and it took me forever to find work, and only then at a series of low-budget weekly newspapers where there were NO benefits for interchangeable, dispensible, disposable people like me. I guess there were more baby boomers than the economy could assimulate so they warehoused us in schools.
I could have learned my craft on the job!
BUT THERE WERE NO JOBS!
NOW,THERE ARE ALMOST NO NEWSPAPERS!
The importance of higher education was way overstated. In the USA, it was originally to train professionals and the liberal arts was to train rich people into how to spend their money and live graciously -- like give big endowment checks to the school and to ensure they had a good time by creating Greek letter social clubs
where they could "sow their wild oats." and have a great time.Why not? They weren't going to have to worry about getting a job, their parents already had a place for them.
Ordinary working folks saw this and they made the wrong conclusions. They thought that it was the college degree alone that caused people to make the big money insted of the other way around. You really didn't need the degrees to make money at that time --you could apprentice yourself as a law clerk in a law office and read for the law and take the bar without law school. You could also apprentice to a physician or an accountant and learn on the job.
The schools of higher education lobbied the politicians well and bluffed them with the huge vocabluaries and academic mumbo jumbo ...
Sure, some working folks were able to make the tremendous financial sacrifice necessary to get the professional degrees --but at what price?
PEOPLE HAVE LOST SIGHT OF THE ORIGINAL PURPOSE OF COLLEGE AND THAT IT WAS FOR THE EDUCATION OF THE FUTURE ELITES BY THE ELITES WHO CAME FROM ELITES!
LOOK AT ALL THE MONEY PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE TAKING OUT OF YOUR LIVES NOW IN TAXES AND LOOK AT WHAT YOUR HARD-EARNED MONEY IS PRODUCING!
When Carter was President, I saw PhDs doing janitor work for the State of Texas and Masters degreed people driving cabs! The Bachelor's degreed people were flipping burgers and looking for work!
WE NEED JOBS!
HIGHER EDUCATION HAS BECOME SOMETHING OF A FICTION!
THE ONLY REASON I AM GOING TO SCHOOL IS BECAUSE I HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO GET A JOB SINCE 2002!
And every thing I have tried to major in has suddenly become OBSOLETE or there is NO DEMAND and now with the ECONOMY this bad, I have NO IDEA what will happen when I graduate from school next semester.
I AM SCARED, ANGRY and I guess my time in school merely postponed the inevitable that I will STILL be unemployed just better educated and more aware of WHY.
THIS IS A SCAM!
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» The thing that allowed America to prosper
Posted by: marid
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Posted by: catfish on Nov 12, 2008 3:50 PM
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This for-profit college is directly sucking in taxpayer dollars in the form of grants and student loans. We call it the "death star" here, it is destroying our city.
The teachers there have no benefits either.
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Posted by: gellero1 on Nov 12, 2008 4:33 PM
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The Government distorts the market.
If students have access to easy money, of course tuition will go up.
Basic economics....charge what the market will bear.
The Messiah will, of course, provide more easy money. And the situation will get worse.
Modern serfdom
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Posted by: PacificGatePost on Nov 12, 2008 4:43 PM
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An educated society is a freer society. What's happening here? The burden we are placing on our kids is unconscionable.
THE DYNAMIC OF SOVEREIGNTY
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» Remember what Goebbels told Hitler
Posted by: marid
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Posted by: avatar_singh on Nov 12, 2008 5:28 PM
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but since 1993 when the american agent manmohan singh was isntalled as finance misniter evrything had b=to be monetarized and so was education.
there alos the students have to take loan now to pay back in isntallments without intetrest.
the same way as is practices in uk and america of which countries this unelelctable prime minsiter of India is a known and proud slave.
this is the manmohan siongh who met bush in spetpembr and told him"Indians love you".
ofocurs eIndians donto love that msoty hateful person on the world called bush-but corupt bisinesslcclas and scapitalist of india liove him-that shows hwo ddegenrate the Indian capitalist class is
atlest the american capitalis class and british do talk in term of nationalism while Indians capitalistsare direct agent of foreign hostile powers.
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» RE: this disease has been imported into India through american agent manmohan singh -unelected PM.
Posted by: avatar_singh
» RE: this disease has been imported into India through american agent manmohan singh -unelected PM.
Posted by: benzene
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Posted by: Mel H. on Nov 12, 2008 7:17 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» How Dare You......
Posted by: gellero1
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Posted by: logos7 on Nov 13, 2008 12:55 AM
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Let those who can afford to go to school without loans go during this "strike" if they fail to join those who need lower costs.
The other way to pay for the educations of the students is to use the lottery money that is supposed to go for education. In California, where the lottery was established in 1984, the money raised was supposed to go for education. It NEVER has been used for education. When I repeatedly asked about this as the public schools went down the toilet, nobody seemed to know where the money went.
The office of the superintendents from the state level to the city level, were all ignorant about where the lottery money went. None of the school boards that I asked had a clue. In October I visited the State Capitol. The governator was absent so I asked someone in his office about lottery money. I was told by that person that all of the money went for prizes and ADMINISTRATION!
What a sad state of affairs we are in. Perhaps we should stop fighting among ourselves and unite to force those we have elected to govern us to do their jobs. Instead they divide us by any means they can, not the least of which is race, so that we are constantly fighting each other while they clean out the store. Isn't anyone watching? We need change.
No matter what he says, we should not expect Obama to fix all the ills of the country. We can do some things for ourselves. The congress bails out big business and sells out its citizens. We complain to each other and sit back waiting. Waiting for what?
Banks are being bailed out. Why not just not pay them and tell them in bold letters that they got theirs from Congress so we think they have been paid. (Don't do that with your mortgage. Do it with credit card debt and student loans.)
We also need to re-think about how we live our lives (before we have families to support) to save money. Forget about having a house or apartment all to yourself while you pay through the nose for utilities and rent. With banks lacking reliability, use credit unions. Stop paying for over priced items. Don't buy it if you don't need it. It is time to quit lining the pockets of the rich while we have empty ones.
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Posted by: gellero1 on Nov 13, 2008 5:26 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: School Strike??
Posted by: TheNamelessCity
» My Reality??
Posted by: gellero1
» The Democrats shipped them overseas?
Posted by: marid
» RE: The Democrats shipped them overseas?
Posted by: maglindracia
» YES: The Democrats DID ship them overseas.
Posted by: gellero1
» RE: YES: The Democrats DID ship them overseas.
Posted by: maglindracia
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Posted by: UH1Huey3113 on Nov 13, 2008 5:58 AM
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» RE: I got the Same Propaganda in the ARMY
Posted by: joeocho88
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Posted by: UH1Huey3113 on Nov 13, 2008 5:58 AM
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» The skeptic and cynic in me has to ask
Posted by: marid
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Posted by: lmwilker on Nov 13, 2008 1:46 PM
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Posted by: joeocho88 on Nov 13, 2008 3:56 PM
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I HAD TO LIVE LIKE A BUM BECAUSE MY GRANT ONLY COVERED BOOKS AND TUITION. I STUDIED AT BUS STOPS AND TRIED TO STAY WARM IN THE WINTER. I MADE THE ENORMOUS SACRIFICES THEY SAT YOU HAVE TO MAKE TO ACHIEVE THE AMERICAN DREAM!
I only need one place to live and not more than I can use.I just wanted money for the necessities. I am very thankful that I did not have any children because it would kill me to know that they would have to suffer like this.
I am trying to find a four-year school that will take my Pell money and my work-study elgibility and I can manage to change majors a few times so I will still be elgible to get the grant money which is how I have the money to eat. My clothes and other things I scavage from the trash cans and dumpsters from outside the more affluent students from the more affluent apartments!
I have not been to a dentist since 1979!
The only time I can see a doctor is if I am involved in an auto accident.
The undocumented workers here crowd all everyone else out of the health department and clinics meant for low-income and no-income people like me.
I am the first person in my family to try for any higher education. My late mother never learned to read or write. She could sign her name if I showed her where.My late father was a janitor and learned to keep books in the military in WWII so he did OK but we were always marginal. Even so, they did much better than I am ever going to do.
AND I AM ONE OF THOSE MUCH-MALIGNED BABY BOOMERS!
I NEVER USED DRUGS AND I DO NOT DRINK ALCOHOL.I HAVE NEVER BEEN CONVICTED OF A CRIME!
ALL I WANT IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO PROVE TO AN EMPLOYER WHAT I CAN DO!
It is not ANY baby boomer's fault that there were so many of us! It took a while for the War-induced prosperity of WWII to wind down. I remember Dad working at a portable taco stand until he could find more bookkeeping work.Mom came from a family of migrant farm workers. I thought I would do much better than them and be able to help them. Throughout my entire life, I NEVER made more than $24,000 per year and I wish I could make it now!
THE FEW TIMES I WOULD MANAGE TO GET ON MY FEET, A RECESSION WOULD COME ALONG AND THERE WENT MY JOB! ALL I WANTED WAS THE OPPORTUNITY BUT THE WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY FOR ME WAS ONLY THROUGH THE 1980s AND... THEN...IT...SHUT!
I have noticed since Reagan that the recessions have come closer together and each one gets more intense!
I have an infected tooth and I hope I will be able to get into the low cost dental clinic so I won't get blood poisoning like last time this happened. They pulled teeth in there and don't try to save them.
THIS IS NOT A MATTER OF ME BEING A BUM. I HAVE ALL THIS EDUCATION --WHY CAN"T I GET A JOB? WHEN I WAS YOUNGER, I WAS TOLD I HAD NO EXPERIENCE. NOW THAT I AM OLDER AND LEARNED TO DO A LOT OF THINGS WELL, AND A GREAT WORK ETHIC, I AM TOLD I AM TOO OLD AND OVERQUALIFIED!
OR I AM NOT BLACK ENOUGH. OR I DON'T SPEAK SPANISH GOOD ENOUGH. IT IS ALWAYS SOMETHING!
TOO OLD TO WORK AND TOO YOUNG FOR SOCIAL SECURITY BENEFITS!
I am sure I am not alone here...I don't know what I will do when the education money finally runs out. I STILL WON'T BE ABLE TO GET A JOB.
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Posted by: georgiaorwell on Nov 14, 2008 1:12 AM
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There are a few US programs (Fulbright, etc.) that give money for study abroad, but the requirements are so tough that almost no one can satisfy them even though they make it sound like you can.
You would almost think it has something to do with greed.
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» Parasites
Posted by: gellero1
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Posted by: CALynn on Nov 14, 2008 4:52 AM
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As a CPA, I've attended hundreds of continuing education classes over the years. The one that sticks out the most is one I attended last month - Fundamentals of Financial Analysis - where we computed the cost of a college education for little Johnny. That is , what will little Johhny pay for his first year of college in 2026? the answer - considering an annual inflation rate of 8% per year is $62,500. Of course that's absurd. Especially since colleges and universities have no business charging these enormous amounts. They have tens of millions of dollars - collectively trillions - in foundations, legacys, endowments - at their fingertips. So much money that the IRS is trying to figure out how to continue to allow the interest to be tax free!
So why the annual increase?
It's called capitalism. And the only way it works is to - us duh! - capitalize on whoever and whatever the beast needs to feed on.
And the enablers of this insanity are called "student loans".
We need to ack now to help little Johhny.
Who will step up to the plate and take the first pitch? I see that Allan from studentloandjustice.org is trying.
The belly of the beast is full of our promises to pay for the rest of our lives.
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Posted by: smchris on Nov 14, 2008 5:31 AM
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1. Either go _back_ to a more European model of free or heavily subsidized education [I'm old. I remember $7.50/credit at a state college], or
2. Get honest about America's "classless society" and promote a two-tier system for the rich and poor.
The latter is hardly unknown and has arisen in social conditions similar to the U.S. today. I believe there are many examples around the world but think of the University of London and UNISA (South Africa) as large, high-profile examples in the English-speaking world. In the U.S., there is Excelsior College. Theoretically, read enough textbooks on your own, get good enough scores on multiple Graduate Record Exam Subject Tests and you can have an accredited degree dirt cheap.
The problem with such programs is that the heavy reliance on independent motivation predictably results in extraordinary failure rates.
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Posted by: georgiaorwell on Nov 14, 2008 5:54 AM
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I don't think it's fair to deny Americans jobs if they don't speak Spanish, thanks to the influx of Latino immigrants. I'm sorry, but this is like adding insult to injury. Had I known back when, I certainly would have taken courses in Spanish - mea culpa!
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» RE: Can't get a job if you don't speak Spanish
Posted by: maglindracia
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Posted by: doctorsquared on Nov 14, 2008 9:54 AM
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» RE: One thing that can help
Posted by: maglindracia
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