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The Long Road Ahead -- Are You Ready for the Worst the Economy Has to Offer?

By James Howard Kunstler, Kunstler.com. Posted October 25, 2008.


Are we headed for a deflationary period followed by a tidal wave of inflation?

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It's fascinating to read the commentators in mainstream journals like The Financial Times and The Wall Street Journal all strenuously pretending that "the worst is over" (maybe… we hope… fingers crossed… hail Mary full of grace… et cetera). The cluelessness would be funny if it didn't involve a world-changing catastrophe. All nations that have reached the fork-and-spoon level of civilization are now engineering a vast network of cyber-cables that lead directly from their central bank computers to the Death Star that is hovering above world financial affairs like a giant cosmic vacuum cleaner, sucking up dollars, euros, zlotys, forints, krona, what-have-you. As fast as the keystrokes create currency-pixels, the little electron-denominated units of exchange are sucked out of the terrestrial economies into the black hole of money death. That's what the $700-billion bail-out (excuse me, "rescue plan") and all its associated ventures are about.

To switch metaphors, let's say that we are witnessing the two stages of a tsunami. The current disappearance of wealth in the form of debts repudiated, bets welshed on, contracts cancelled, and Lehman Brothers-style sob stories played out is like the withdrawal of the sea. The poor curious little monkey-humans stand on the beach transfixed by the strangeness of the event as the water recedes and the sea floor is exposed and all kinds of exotic creatures are seen thrashing in the mud, while the skeletons of historic wrecks are exposed to view, and a great stench of organic decay wafts toward the strand. Then comes the second stage, the tidal wave itself -- which in this case will be horrific monetary inflation -- roaring back over the mud flats toward the land mass, crashing over the beach, and ripping apart all the hotels and houses and infrastructure there while it drowns the poor curious monkey-humans who were too enthralled by the weird spectacle to make for higher ground. The killer tidal wave washes away all the things they have labored to build for decades, all their poignant little effects and chattels, and the survivors are left keening amidst the wreckage as the sea once again returns to normal in its eternal cradle.

So, that's what I think we will get: an interval of deflationary depression followed by a destructive wave of inflation that will wipe out both constructed debt and constructed savings, scraping the financial landscape clean. There's no question that stage one is underway. But we can be sure the giant wave of money recklessly loaned into existence in just a few weeks time will wash back through the global economy leaving a swath of destruction.

And then what? The societies of the world will be faced with the task of rebuilding systems of fruitful activity, i.e., real economies based on productive behavior rather than the smoke-and-mirrors of Frankenstein-finance con games. In fact, excuse me while I switch metaphors again, because the Frankenstein story -- the New Prometheus -- is yet another apt narrative to inform us what we have done. We have "played" with financial fire and brought to life a monster now bent on killing us. One question that this metaphor-narrative raises is: when will the angry peasant mob storm the castle with their flaming brands and cries for blood from the makers of this monster? Rather soon, I think. Perhaps, in some countries (maybe the USA, if we're lucky), this will take the more orderly form of systematic prosecutions, bringing to justice persons who perpetrated swindles involving the alphabet soup of investment "products" that have gone bad in so many accounts (and ruined so many individuals, institutions, and governments). I think it has already begun with the inquisitors summoning the shifty Dick Fuld of Lehman Brothers -- but there are hundreds of other characters like him out there, who scored untold millions of dollars in activities that were simply grand swindles. I wouldn't be surprised if, eventually, Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson found himself in the dock to answer how come, when he ran Goldman Sachs, there was a special unit in the company dedicated to short-selling the very mortgage-backed securities that another unit in the company was so busy pawning off to every pension fund on God's green earth.

Apart from orderly prosecutions (which can certainly turn harsh and cruel), there is the possibility of sociopolitical upheaval -- revolution, violence, civil war, war between nations, the whole menu of monkey-human mischief that afflicts mankind. We are not necessarily immune to it here in the USA, despite our cherished notion of exceptionalism, which would have us inoculated against all the common vicissitudes of history.

Anyway, prosecution through the courts, while perhaps satisfying the hunger for justice (or, more particularly, revenge), is not a productive economic activity. So, the question begs itself again: what will we do? Under the best circumstances we will reorganize our society and economy at a lower level of energy use (and probably a lower scale of governance, too). The catch is, it will have to be a whole lot lower. I think we'll be very lucky fifty years from now to have a few hours a day of electricity to do things with.

The energy story and its hand-maiden, the climate change situation, are both lurking out there beyond the immediate spectacle of the financial fiasco. Both these things imply pretty strongly that the economic relations currently unraveling will not be rebuilt -- not the way they were before, or even close to it. The best outcome will be societies that can practice small-scale "process-intensive" organic agriculture and equally small-scale process-intensive modes of manufacture in the context of very local sociopolitical networks. An accompanying hope is that we can remain civilized in the process. Personally, while I recognize the appeal (to others, not me) of the "singularity" narrative, which has the human race making a sudden evolutionary leap into some kind of cyborg-nirvana, I regard it as an utter bullshit fantasy that has zero chance of occurring, given our stark predicament.

But returning to the short term, or "the present," shall we say, there is the matter of how the US gets through the election and then the first months of a new government, even while the larger fiasco continues. While I believe Obama would make a much better president than the addled old mad dog Mr. McCain has become, I feel sorry for anyone who is placed nominally "in charge" of things this coming year. The best a President Obama can do is offer some reassurance to a public that is totally unprepared for the convulsion now upon us. Mr. Obama will certainly not have "money" to "spend" on any of the promised social support programs that have been endlessly debated. But he could clearly articulate the reality we're facing, and ask not necessarily for "sacrifice," as the common plea goes, but for something more and better: for bravery and resolute spirit, for intelligence and resilience, for kindness and generosity -- among a people long unused to consorting with the better angels of their nature. He's already begun to set the example by appearing in public with his sleeves rolled up. The change that has been in the air all year -- that Mr. Obama has talked so much about -- is coming in a bigger dose than anyone expected. I hope we're ready to get with the program.

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See more stories tagged with: inflation, deflationary period, financial crash

James Kunstler, the author of The Long Emergency: Surviving the Converging Catastrophes of the 21st Century, World Made By Hand, and three books about suburbs and cities: The Geography of Nowhere, Home From Nowhere, and The City in Mind: Notes on the Urban Condition.

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Monkey-human babies
Posted by: socialpsych on Oct 25, 2008 4:05 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One thing that anyone can do is refrain from having children. It doesn't cost a cent to not reproduce, and it reduces one's impact on the planet. It also serves as a highly effective direct action against the hegemony of the unsustainable economic growth model that has gotten us into this mess.

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» scapegoating babies Posted by: mgmyers79
We are in the "Winds of change"
Posted by: Krain61 on Oct 25, 2008 4:37 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So buckle up and hold on.
No easy landing. Many here live pay to pay and will soon find the only way to make it is 2 or 3 families living in the same home. Making good old fashion meals at home. Hea this could help slim down the country. Wearing used clothing and finding out that left overs are not that bad..Maybe will stop waisting alot of things from gas,electric and food. Willlearn to be much more frugule.And thoughs who can will once again be eating from the garden.
Maybe this wind of change will be good for us!

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economic resconstruction
Posted by: lclark on Oct 25, 2008 6:14 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well, the talk is a new 'stimulus package'. The last two went to fast and imported electronics. Now they want fix roads with imported steel and concrete. Maybe the fools that got us into this mess might want to reason thru to a better response:

Currently we are losing our manufacturing base, good jobs are being exported, and we increase our debt continually importing those manufactured goods, as well as oil. Policies that may benefit a multinational corporation (American corporations in name only) have degraded our economy and nation in many ways. We need people in the Congress and Senate who represent the common good of citizens to act in ways that address this situation directly and effectively, understanding that we need a viable and diverse national economy that produces more goods than it consumes.

What is needed is coordinated and rapid deployment of technologies that create cheap and abundant electricity as well as technologies that use that created abundance to replace oil in our economy. This effort will reintroduce a viable manufacturing base, and provide many construction and long term maintenance, engineering, and technical jobs. It isn’t sufficient to rely on tax incentives to private investors to deploy these technologies quickly enough to effect the impact required. We need:

1). Commitments from private industry to manufacture in America sufficient wind turbines and blades to supply at least half of the estimated electrical needs in 10 years.

2). Development of a National Transmission ‘Superhighway’ to allow electrical capacity to be delivered where needed from where best produced.

3). Development of practical electrical boilers for houses to replace oil fired boilers in the Northeast and Midwest homes.

4). Develop of regional transport system for goods that is based on electrical power with the use of existing rail systems where possible.

5). The development of electrical based commuter and long distance rail systems that people would use because they were practical regionally and a comfortable alternative to air travel.

6). Investment in battery technologies to allow for the deployment of rapidly charging electrical powered vehicles that have a reasonable range between charges and can be charged at home at night.

Just as China has done, we would require all private manufacturers that participated in this national effort to establish the manufacturing base for these deployments in this country.

Wind power is practical and is the cheapest and fastest growing renewable power generating technology currently available and now provides 1.5% of the nation’s electricity. In fact, more has been deployed in the last two years than in the last 20. But the goal of 20% of our electricity from wind by 2030 is simply insufficient.

Already capacity created in some areas of the country has caused the price of electricity to drop so much that it is not profitable because that excess capacity cannot be delivered to where price and demand are much higher. Even in New York State electricity is $20 per MWh lower in some areas of northern New York because of wind turbines than in the Capital District. Wind turbines drop the cost of electricity yet my utility company is asking for extra money to buy wind based power so I can feel properly ‘green’!

With the rapid deployment of wind turbines and related infrastructure we can address fundamental weaknesses in our real economy, remove dependence on foreign sources of energy, clean the air, and renew the feeling that the government actually can address practical problems.

Contrast that with nuclear power which is yet another substitute that relies on a controlled and limited fuel source that is toxic and centralized. A new ‘hand on the spigot’ approach to controlling the economy.

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» usterroristnation Posted by: usterroristnation
» RE: economic resconstruction Posted by: Knot_Rich
Or....
Posted by: practical idealist on Oct 25, 2008 6:16 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We can start building new sustainable cities in the United States to meet future population growth while providing green jobs that will help to pull our economy away from the economic abyss. Not going to happen? In the coming months jobs losses are to increase dramatically. And as they do the idea of building new cities is going to gain traction. In the quest for ideas, it is only one out there. If it doesn't resonate, well, what else is there?

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» RE: Or.... Posted by: mgmyers79
» RE: Or.... Posted by: luckysun
ENOUGH ALREADY
Posted by: LikeSoup on Oct 25, 2008 7:11 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We talk about recessions, job cuts and downsizing as if it ends there. After the layoff the real problems present themselves. Marriages often crumble, difficulty raising children financially and mentally occurs and the stress involved has taken many lives. If we feel the effects of this it's often because we don't allow ourselves to consider alternatives. I'd been downsized twice in a five year period for business reasons not associated with performance. I’m not available for that any longer. You shouldn’t be either. www.LikeSoup.com

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Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.
The die-off has already begin
Posted by: JPHickey on Oct 25, 2008 7:25 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hi,
I doubt that the situation is going to be anything like what we've know before, especially since there are few surviors from the Great Depression.
The doo do has already been hitting the fan for the invisible underclass, and the die-off has begun. Check out the recent AlterNet article for a taste the fall from economic grace that has hit so many already. Death does play a leading role.

Arson, Suicide, and Murder Mark the Economic Crisis, and We’re Not Hearing About it. http://www.alternet.org/workplace/103656/?page=entire Look, we're well into fall, and winter lurks closer every day. Not the best of seasons to become homeless or to do without food and/or heat.

The elderly, very poor, and ill are already in dire circumstances. If nothing else, many will freeze to death this winter, whether or not the MSM reports it or not.

And this is only one group who already has knows what it feels like.

Schools are losing tax revenues. Millions more will become unemployed.

Instead sticking with the current trickle-down governmental subsidies of the advantaged class, the government must take cues from the "New Deal" and institute a "Green New Deal" ASAP along with the rebuilding of the infrastructure. Plus a national-wide community service program to help care for those who can use a helping hand. This can include education and job training for the new economy.

At least this is my own take on the challenges off the top of my head.

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» Casualties Are Inevitable Posted by: edgar1
» RE: Casualties Are Inevitable Posted by: Last Chance
» Hanging in there Posted by: edgar1
Recoup the ill-gotten gains
Posted by: lumenborealis on Oct 25, 2008 7:54 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I disagree with Kuntsler that legal prosecutions will be unproductve. There can of course be no ex post facto criminal legislation. But there is an established legal principle known as unjustified enrichment. Those people who collectively siphoned off trillions of dollars through misrepresentations and lack of due diligence should be made to pay back their ill-gotten gains. Why should taxpayers shell out billions when trillions could probably be recovered in this way from the looters?

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» usterroristnation Posted by: usterroristnation
» RE: usterroristnation Posted by: Dboy
» RE: usterroristnation Posted by: Knot_Rich
a few things that worry me most...
Posted by: Farmertim on Oct 25, 2008 8:16 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
is the fact that we really don't know how much money we really have in the current global system with any real backing that would give us a clue...
One simply goes to the bank to get a loan(at one time) and the money is created, which Wall street has done for 20 years on a quantum level.
So all the money lost in the current market..is it really money or the perception that you had some because it was written on paper or computer screen.
All that supposed money is used to consume the last of the world recources, how will we move to another social platform if the idea of all that money disapears?
As for growing gardens..great idea, but there was not enough seed to go around before this all went south... and what homes are we going to have left to turn yards into food...
Organic products reproduce like potatoes, onions, squash, yams, tomatoes, peppers, garlic, most fruit though slowly, but that will only supply maybe 10% of the population with seed stock, some conventional will but any GMO won't.
Yep..as Mr. Kunstler has said for sometime..its not going to be pretty.
FarmerTim

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The Civilized Option
Posted by: edgar1 on Oct 25, 2008 9:06 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Kunstler sets forth the options, dangers and reactions very clearly. If the damage to the state of prosperity is as bad as he projects, the civilized option is unrealistic.

it's been almost a century since most americans lived in rural communities, self-sufficient and able to live without electricity and cars. americans see prosperity and a high living standard mostly in suburbs but for some in luxury urban condos and townhomes, as a right. and years of propaganda, mostly from democrats like obama and opportunists like W bush, convince the lazy addicted to welfare public that the govt owes them everything. yet worker and businesspeople, not the govt, creates wealth. right now, due to massive debt and credit crunches, wealth creation is stymied but more government handouts will create inflation,not wealth.

americans will, as the recession deepens, be mad and turn on each other. class and race war are feasible. and illegal immigrants should pack up in the interests of their own safety. who would want to issue them work permits during a recession with no likely end in sight? Obama? Mm, no. He's a politician first, not a social worker(or a community organizer!)

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» RE: The Civilized Option Posted by: Knot_Rich
Dear Howard Kunstler --->
Posted by: Last Chance on Oct 25, 2008 10:54 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"...get with the program...? What program are you referring to? What basic reforms are you contemplating? You ridicule "cyber nervana", but you offer nothing that people can actually do together to put food on their tables and a roof over their heads. I say they should do it themselves and whatever may be left of government services should help them with land and equipment. What do you say????

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» Welcome information Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: Welcome information Posted by: astralman
darkmark
Posted by: darkmark on Oct 25, 2008 11:09 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
something i emailed congresswoman speirs and senators boxer and feinstein?

i'm beginning to think that capitalism doesn't work at the large end. only at the lower economic scale does it truly function. after that business doesn't recognize people, just the top and bottom line and power. we the people are just stooges giving away everything we own so they can stay in power, get bigger, spit on us. its time to crush the leaders of large corporations until their bones break and bodies bleed. maybe then they'll play by a set of fair rules. even the nytimes admits this "So When Will Banks Give Loans?" so when will the senate and congress do their job and protect this economy from these robber barons?
Sincerely,

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this The Financial Times is a rat spreading diease called english corrupt way the world over.
Posted by: avatar_singh on Oct 25, 2008 11:11 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thius is what I wrote way back in 2002 during a mini crisis of stock market.

August 2002



It really is funny when the english media start telling to all and sundry that while it may be that U.S. has some reason to lose shares in the stock market and while the rest of world has lost stock market for so long it is some special god given right of london stock market not to fall or atleast not to fall as others have. Why?thses english propagandist who have been champion of globalization and have told others country that evrything in one country affects other country(though not aparently england even if england produces nothing of sort and her so called service industry is run by constipated looking arse faced low lif salesman and women), ; these people are now saying that england's accounting system and stock market is different than americas. Till other days they have been telling that their system is best because it is very much like american system.
Whole thing smacks of rats(in this case british) leaving the ship(america) when the rats fear of ship sinking.After it ion the strenght of american power that this thrid rate country called england has had such a boom time while the real industrial giants like japan and Germany have been in recession for years(no globalizatio effect there).In fact poplke should throw their economic book ab=nd theory and examine how a thrid rate country like england has nbeen able to survuive let alone propsper.ofcourse the english were fisrt to glee when they initaited downfall of japanese and far east market-no advice at that time to put money into equity as good value as they talk of in their case now. The english spies in form of jopurnalist put a lot (billion) of false paper money into Soviet russia during may-december 1900 to bankrupt soviets. ofcourse the englsh have been trying to thwart Euro for a long time-only when they are successful then they think of joining eueo-in fact europe should not allow britian to join euro.Also english media and govt. have been indulging in industrial sabotage of european countries thru the anglosaxon network of satellite and net , telephone spying and tapping-even E.U. rightly had complained about it-it was hushed just as it was in case of money laundering by british through their so called tax heaven off shore islands.
In fact for last 20 years and more so in last 15 years the english have shown their true clour-after cold war it is clear that the impotent english have been trying to piggy back pon american strength(americans in majority are not anglosaxons)and thru america england treis to bully other nations-install dictators their and then those dictators without peoples supprt are asked to bring the money to england and buy house in london-that creates housing boom and this nation of plumbers(graduation from pirates to shopkeepers then plumbers now) feels very happy with inflated house prices and low qulaity housing and infrastructrue-the money from abroad comes to london stock exchange and fuels the stock price. The london stock price should be forced to be lowered to one fourth of its present price becasue the rest is all false pumped up price with no real value. wht does england produce that any country would want? the real indutrial nations of the worls -Japan, germany have been in recesssion for last 10years while this england has been booming after gulf war for no reason other than becasue it falsley persuaded other countries and their dicataors to bring money to london and starve the rest of worrld. For God' sake the english plumber does not even eat healthy food.--atleast not non infected.england -

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If you're ready to tolerate frugality and go green for real, then it's not so bad.
Posted by: maxpayne on Oct 25, 2008 11:11 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
On the other hand, if you still want to be a compulsive spender and look at the Wall $treet numbers dinging and donging back and forth, well, I can't help you ! Maybe it's high time we all quit being too materialistic for a CHANGE.

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NO Tragedy without Comedy
Posted by: Mimi on Oct 25, 2008 11:38 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mr Kuntsler,

You are a superb writer, your metaphors mixed but so is the ecosystem, and so I implore you to consider following the rule that applied to the great drama-poets of the past:

In order to submit a tragedy to the ancient drama festival in Athens, a Tragedian was REQUIRED to submit a comedic variation on his own tragedy. The Greeks understood the catastrophic impact on the people of stand-alone tragic visions.

In theatre art, we also generally recognize that Comedy takes more skill than Tragedy.

I implore you to follow this wise rule and set higher standards for your exceptional talents as a writer. You are using only the tragic half of your brain. Every dystopian vision has its utopian antidote, and it is easier to imagine dystopias than how to live through them.

Professional futurists follow the rule that there is ALWAYS more than one future possible. Since you write about the future, I hold you to this professional standard that, like the ancient rule for Tragedians, requires Futurists to identify more than one possible future.

To wit: We know the tsunami is coming thanks to many writers like yourself. We can now move to "higher ground," higher moral ground in our economic system, the higher ground of compassionate realism in our government (which is what Obama is, a compassionate realist and/or pragmatic empath), and have the benefit of what being on actual, higher ground allows, a clear, comprehensive view of what is happening and what is needed to live through disruptive change with a less human suffering and more human resiliency.

This life we have been leading of shopping till we drop, stuffing ourselves with material meaninglessness, while the sword of Damocles of our environmental situation swings by a hair above our heads has been no "good" life at all. It has been mad.

Sanity is one result of the end of madness, and a sane, salutary future one possibility for the end of an era.

Please use your talent for the common good.

MimiK

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Never gonna happen. This article is full of eco-nut quackery.
Posted by: blogbooks on Oct 25, 2008 11:56 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A few hours per day of electricity to do things with?

Small farms?

Not in the cards, buddy.

There is nothing wrong with electricity or technology. The real problem is over population.

Generating energy to supply the needs of 2 billion humans at a high level of affluence and consumption is comparatively simple to generating energy to supply the needs of 8 or 10 billion.

Don't worry, though. The powers that be have plans in action as we speak to drastically decrease the human population via: education and disincentives to breeding in the West (not to mention the brainwashing of every woman into a cold, bitter, feminist shrew), and mass starvation in the "brown" countries.

Billions will die horrible deaths.

This is ultimately what you, the environmentalists, desire - the death of a significant portion of humanity.

So, rejoice. Your golden era is nearly here. But it won't be log cabins and hippy communes. It'll be detention camps, mass starvation, ignorant and suffering - all lorded over by an incredibly wealthy and affluent ruling class and their intermediaries/technologists/bureaucrats.

Either figure out how to "live off the land" like you claim you want to (most of you couldn't run a successful farming operation in the most fertile soil/climate on Earth), or learn some skills that will make you useful to your masters.

The future global techno-dictatorship requires skilled IT workers, scientists, engineers, doctors, researchers etc. The days of working on an assembly line and making enough money to go home, drink beer, watch football, and raise 10 kids are over.

You are powerless against man and nature. Accept your fate as the weaklings that you are. Or, become strong and bend reality to your will.

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» We Cooperate To Survive Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: We Cooperate To Survive Posted by: richholland
» What the F&^K. Posted by: walldodger1969
Superstruct MMO
Posted by: cyr3n on Oct 25, 2008 12:11 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There's a new game called SuperStruct that you play as yourself.. in the year 2019. Faced with several human extinction scenarios, you have to survive and post how you'd deal with hypothetical situations. It's pretty neat and helps simulate what people would do under pressure:
http://superstructgame.org/

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definition of terms
Posted by: cbishopp on Oct 25, 2008 2:47 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is true, our economic system is damaged. Partially because we are presented with arguments that have two black and white easy to understand but fallacious opposing sides, capitalism or socialism. Really? These are our only choices?
Am I to believe that there cannot be a harmonious combination of the two?
Capitalism is a great motivator of the workforce and a mover of currency but we have all seen that left unchecked capitalism is quickly overrun by unscrupulous greed and selfishness. There is no such thing as a free capitalist market except in theory. If you don't believe me then look into the economies of Latin America since the 70's. Once developmental economies that were gaining strength and prosperity, many of these countries were overrun by violent military dictatorships and free market capitalism was forced upon the population without control or protection. Everything was privatized, education, social security, health care, natural resources, and so on.
These economies floundered creating massive deficits, an impoverished population, debt laden public treasuries, and the greatest transfer of wealth in history. The same thing is happening in this country now and I am prone to believe that it is not because of a few small mistakes in policy but the intended result of a ruling class who fear that wealth will be distributed more evenly among the population thus reducing their ability and desire to control every aspect of your life from energy to education from savings to investment.
Why do we pay the Federal Reserve to print our money? If the government coined it's own money backed by the faith and credit of the United States then there would be no national debt.
There should also be an increase in stable, low risk government loan programs.
For example, if you are granted a government loan for housing or education or small farm development then the nominal interest charged to you would go into public not private coffers and be spent on public works.
I believe that if the bulk of society saw debt and it's repayment as a public service that betters one's community as well as the individual, there is a very good chance that most of these loans would be repaid.
This would free up credit markets, allow for currency to flow, and create a harmonious combination of capitalism and socialism. Interest revenues could be applied to pay for needed infrastructure that has been dismantled through privatization.
Of course individual investment would still be possible, private companies would still be possible, and business would be allowed to flourish but as a result of investment not debt.
A corporation, on the other hand, gains nothing by investing in the community. The more it consumes the better the bottom line.
If more profit can be made from your enslavement then what do you think a corporate shark would do?
The economy should represent the coercive agreement of a general population to respect and care for itself. It represents a social contract, the very essence of civilization. It should not be a system designed for exploitation of the many for the few, which is what it has become.
If you want to call it "tempered capitalism" or "partial socialism" we need to find a balance between these ideologies that can provide impetus for hard work and investment with a workable concept for social development.
Raw capitalism can only lead to despotism and pure socialism cannot be achieved on a mass scale but elements of our economy can be modified to allow for the care and betterment of the general population and a more peaceful society.

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» RE: definition of terms Posted by: richholland
Unspoken Fear of Apocalypse Drives Crash
Posted by: lorenbliss on Oct 25, 2008 3:18 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Though few dare say it -- Kunstler is the only mainstreamer who even hints at it -- this market crash is unique: its unspoken driver is rational terror of impending doom.

The following is from "Now the End Has Truly Begun," my last effort as blogger Wolfgang von Skeptik, 23 May 2007 (for which Google; my efforts to post working links here always seem to fail):

Most of us have no idea how bad things are...terminal climate change is softened to “global warming” even as petroleum exhaustion is misrepresented as “temporary price instability." The terrifying truth -- the truth the ruling class tries desperately to hide -- is that there is nothing in human experience to compare with the magnitude of the disaster that has already begun.

What confronts us is not one apocalypse but two: species failure -- or more accurately its consequences -- combined with terminal climate change.

Species failure is the self-inflicted destruction of human civilization due to the exhaustion of petroleum resources, the consequent end of technology, and the resultant political, economic and cultural collapse -- horrors intensified by what I label “End Time Capitalism”: the tyrannosauric depredations of a ruling class frantic to hoard maximum wealth before Nature slams her doors closed forever. In other words, species failure is the complete breakdown of all human institutions, the debacle resulting from suicidal errors culminating in a species hopelessly dependent on petroleum and thus unable to survive without it.

Terminal climate change -- itself largely self-inflicted -- worsens the consequences of species failure to the point the survival of H. sapiens sapiens may be impossible. It is “terminal” because, while our species has repeatedly survived cold and glaciation, there is grave doubt we can survive a global temperature increase so great the newest projections suggest it will make all but the polar regions uninhabitable by any life more intelligent than centipedes and scorpions.

(I should point out I chose the terms “species failure” and “terminal climate change” only after considerable reflection. But nothing else describes what is happening -- especially since both conditions are the cumulative and now unavoidable consequences of patriarchal contempt for nature. Likewise “End Time Capitalism” also reflects -- correctly -- capitalism’s origin in Abrahamic religious doctrine, especially its overwhelming impulse toward theocracy and/or other forms of fascism.)

While it is true many human societies have waxed and waned, the causes of collapse never before included the death of technology -- a cataclysmic event that has no human precedent. Technological failure -- by far the most terminal consequence of petroleum exhaustion -- is not only an entirely new affliction, but one for which, as we shall see, we have already moronically discarded our only possible antidote.

[...]

Horrible as earlier societal collapses were to their victims, basic human technology survived every such episode...But in the past two centuries, all of this ancient technology -- technology dating at least to the Paleolithic and existing in rudimentary form even among the earliest pre-human primates -- has been swept away by the rise and triumph of the petroleum-based technology that now provides the essentials of modern civilization. A world without petroleum will thus be a world without electricity, and in a world deprived of electricity, everything we take for granted will become useless junk. The resulting collapse will be absolute: political, economic, cultural (for today our only means of cultural transmission is electronic), and technological as well -- a species-wide collapse of a magnitude and totality that has, as I said, absolutely no precedent. In other words, species failure.

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RN
Posted by: mnstra on Oct 25, 2008 3:57 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
GREAT ARTICLE
i THINK THAT THE CURRENT ELECTION WILL DO NOTHING TO IMPROVE THINGS the THREE BRANCHES OF US GOVERNMENT ARE THE GATE KEEPERS FOR THE ELITE, THEY ALWAYS HAVE BEEN. BUT, THEY DO HAVE THE POWER OF FORCE AND CAN COME DOWN ON THE RULING ELITE WHEN THEY DECIDE THAT THEY ARE ALSO GOING BROKE.

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WHAT economy? We're facing extinction.
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Oct 25, 2008 5:29 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Global Warming can lead to Hydrogen Sulfide gas coming out of
the oceans. Hydrogen Sulfide gas will Kill all people. Homo
Sap will go EXTINCT unless drastic action is taken NOW.

October 2006 Scientific American

"EARTH SCIENCE
Impact from the Deep
Strangling heat and gases emanating from the earth and sea, not
asteroids, most likely caused several ancient mass extinctions.
Could the same killer-greenhouse conditions build once again?
By Peter D. Ward
downloaded from:

Scientific American

....................Most of the article omitted......................
But with atmospheric carbon climbing at an annual rate of 2 ppm
and expected to accelerate to 3 ppm, levels could approach 900
ppm by the end of the next century, and conditions that bring
about the beginnings of ocean anoxia may be in place. How soon
after that could there be a new greenhouse extinction? That is
something our society should never find out."

Press Release
Pennsylvania State University
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Monday, Nov. 3, 2003
downloaded from:
PennState

"In the end-Permian, as the levels of atmospheric oxygen fell and
the levels of hydrogen sulfide and carbon dioxide rose, the upper
levels of the oceans could have become rich in hydrogen sulfide
catastrophically. This would kill most of the oceanic plants and
animals. The hydrogen sulfide dispersing in the atmosphere would
kill most terrestrial life."

www.astrobio.net is a NASA web zine. See:

Astrobiology 1

Astrobiology 2

Astrobiology 3

Astrobiology 4

These articles agree with the first 2. They all say 6 degrees C or
1000 parts per million CO2 is the extinction point.

The global warming is already 1.3 degree Farenheit. 11 degrees
Farenheit is about 6 degrees Celsius. The book "Six Degrees" by
Mark Lynas agrees. If the global warming is 6 degrees
centigrade, we humans go extinct. See:
Six Degrees

"Under a Green Sky" by Peter D. Ward, Ph.D., 2007.
Paleontologist discusses mass extinctions of the past and the one
we are doing to ourselves.

OIL SHALE, TAR SANDS AND COAL MUST BE LEFT IN
THE GROUND TO AVOID THE EXTINCTION OF US
HUMANS.
We have to convert to plug-in hybrid cars so that electricity made
by low-CO2 methods powers most of our driving. Nuclear power
produces the least CO2 of ANY source of electricity.
32 countries have nuclear power plants. Only 9 have the bomb.
The top 4 producers of CO2 all have nuclear power plants, coal
fired power plants and nuclear bombs. They are the USA, China,
India and Russia. Reducing CO2 production by 90% by 2050
requires drastic action in the USA, China, India and Russia.
Coal, oil shale and tar sands must be left untouched in the ground.

I have no connection to the nuclear power industry.

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We may be lucky to get nothing worse than a depression.
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Oct 25, 2008 5:54 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The US government may be in the process of falling already due to climate change.

Downloaded from:
Six Degrees

'Six steps to hell' - summary of Six Degrees as published in the Guardian
23 April 07:

1ºC Nebraska ...shortened... These innocuous-looking hills were once desert, part
of an immense system of sand dunes that spread across the Great Plains from
Texas in the south to the Canadian prairies in the north. Six thousand years ago,
when temperatures were about 1C warmer than today in the US, these deserts
may have looked much as the Sahara does today. ....shortened... devastating
agriculture and driving out human inhabitants on a scale far larger than the 1930s
“Dustbowl” exodus.....shortened...

Reference Book: "The Long Summer, How Climate Changed Civilization" by
Brian Fagan, 2004 Basic Books, ISBN 0-465-02281-2
Summary: Smaller climate changes than we have caused already, caused the fall
of many civilizations.

When there is no food, there is no civilization.

Reference Book: "Collapse, How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed" by Jared
Diamond. 99.99% of all people in the collapsing civilization die, including the
richest. Hunting the neighbors as food happens. We really really don't want to
go there.

George W. Bush and the Religious Right are choosing extinction.

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we will kill each other in the future.
Posted by: astralman on Oct 25, 2008 7:27 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
kunstler is one of my favorite authors and he has a lot of great ideas but the fact is, most people are hoping this financial crisis ends quickly so they can get back to their own narcissistic, delusional agendas of personal success and consumption.
if this doesn't happen, people could try to build local self-sustaining communities (though not necessarily eco-topias) or all out race wars that lead to hostile tribes of people living miserable violent lives.
our free market lifestyle has turned us against each other and it will take a long time for us to remember how to behave as a truly civil society.

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» RE: Crime Rates Posted by: bessie
should we talk about the opportunity of sociopolitical upheaval?
Posted by: gmkuhn on Oct 26, 2008 3:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
> Apart from orderly prosecutions (which can certainly turn harsh and
> cruel), there is the possibility of sociopolitical upheaval --

If the consequences of our current political organization are on balance
bad, should we talk about the opportunity of sociopolitical upheaval?

Do we agree that the consequences of our current political organization
are on balance bad?

Let's ask ourselves the following questions:

1. What are the consequences of the US government downweighting
the 21 most populous states so much in the selection of the US
president that these states' effective loss of population, 64
million people, is greater than the entire population of the rest of
the country, which is only 63 million people? [1]

2. What are the consequences of the US government downweighting the 16
most populous states so much in the US senate that these states' 68%
of the US population only gets 32% of the senate vote? [1]

3. What are the consequences of the US government downweighting the 37
most populous states so much in the US constitutional amendment
process that these states' 95.5% of the population can be blocked by
a plurality of the remaining 4.5% of the population? [1]

4. And if these consequences are on balance bad, is there any realistic
approach to a work-around? [1]

Your thoughts?

[1] at http://www.stmartinsystems.com, see:
070831_US_CofC_education_report_card.pdf, or
070831_US_CofC_education_report_card.pdf

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"Zeitgeist Addendum" movie explains economic model is virtual slavery
Posted by: thevideoqueen on Oct 26, 2008 9:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Free to watch-
http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

or on video.google-
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912

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Deflation? Where?
Posted by: sharonsylvie on Oct 26, 2008 12:20 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So far, the only deflation I see is in the stock market. Only now has the price of gas finally gone down at the pumps. The price of everything else has gone up and stayed there. Economists don't understand the reality of life for the average American: trying to pay bills, buy food, buy medicine, keep the family afloat, pay rent/mortgage, etc. We don't earn enough to pay for it all--that's why our savings rate is zero and why we have such credit card debt. I don't trust the mainstream media to report what's really going on, so let me tell you what I see all around me in Pennsylvania: people who aren't going to survive further inflation.

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Credit Default Swap of the US Treasury Anybody?
Posted by: Gaubladt on Oct 26, 2008 4:00 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Since the mechanism of credit default swaps that insure financial investments are totally unregulated, I have to assume that people out there must be gambling on the solvency of the U.S. Government with Credid Default Swaps. The exchamge medium would have to be something other than US dollars, since the status of the dollar is the core of the bet.
Does anybody know if this is being done? If so, how many tens of trillions of US dollar equivalents are involved? What currency denomination, or raw material is being used as the medium of currency exchange?

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Forget about economics: Just received from Climate Progress
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Oct 26, 2008 7:07 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From: Climate Progress
Date: Sunday, October 26, 2008 12:12 PM
Subject: Climate Progress

A new study in Geophysical Research Letters (subs. req’d),
“Water-vapor climate feedback inferred from climate fluctuations,
2003–2008

” analyzed recent variations in surface temperature and “the
response of tropospheric water vapor to these variations.” They
concluded that the “water-vapor feedback implied by these
observations is strongly positive” and “similar to that simulated
by climate models.” The analysis concludes:
The existence of a strong and positive water-vapor feedback
means that projected business-as-usual greenhouse-gas emissions
over the next century are virtually guaranteed to produce warming
of several degrees Celsius. The only way that will not happen is if
a strong, negative, and currently unknown feedback is discovered
somewhere in our climate system.
A “warming of several degrees Celsius” = the end of life as we
know it (see “Is 450 ppm politically possible? Part 0: The
alternative is humanity’s self-destruction
“).

While some denyers/delayers/inactivists, like MIT’s Richard
Lindzen
,
have argued that negative feedbacks dominate the climate — all of
the evidence points to amplifying feedbacks dominating (except
the one negative feedback that the deniers fiercely fight, discussed
below).

That was a key point of my post “Are Scientists Underestimating
Climate Change, Part 1
“: In the real world,
key climate change impacts — sea ice
loss, ice sheet melting, desertification, and sea level rise — all are
either near the top or actually in excess of their values as predicted
by the IPCC’s climate models. For a more recent detailed
discussion of accelerating climate impacts and what that portends
for the future on our current emissions path, see the new WWF report “Climate Change: faster, stronger, sooner
.”

The major climate models are missing key amplifying feedbacks,
some of which were discussed in “Are Scientists Underestimating
Climate Change, Part II .” These feedbacks
include:

(more…)

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Help the Superrich
Posted by: richholland on Oct 26, 2008 8:05 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
what about thepoor walmartfamily/ Suppose you donot buy the latest shit from cHINA?
sUPPOSE YOU REPAIRED THINGS/ sUPPOSE YOU ARE MARRIED AND ONE OF YOU stayed at home making food, knitting socks, suppose you had to live like millions of people allready do..

Asume the superrich shared with the other human beings in the USA instead of squezing them out...

Why do you make people sick with Frankensteinstories, if you stop the greedy capitalisme and use the money for the environment like we try in Europe (many new jobs)

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» RE: Help the Superrich Posted by: Knot_Rich
misstexas kitty
Posted by: misstexaskitty on Oct 27, 2008 12:27 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Interesting to consider that the countries we mock are in a far better position to survive and even thrive in post-energy disaster world. To live simply is something we as Americans talk nostalgicly about, yet most have no idea what that reality would look like. The evening hours of TV or movies gone, some meals prepared over open fires, conversion of toilets to a gravity system, real gardens that require constant care and upkeep, ride-sharing to work and everywhere we go, and that is just a few of the changes that could await us. Sure a very real part of the problem is population, blaming and pointing fingers doesn't make the problems less real. Nothing we are experiencing is new or comes with out nearly forty (40) years of warnings and discussions. Being Americans and believing we could solve anything in a couple of years, and having that idea reinforced by our "leaders" has left us truly vulnerable. Can we change it? I think we can make the effort, and if we can stop arguing about how "real" the threats are, sure we can change some things. We could begin now and not wait till the crisis is beyond our ability. Unfortunately, the politics that could help will probably fall into the same nonsense we have seen for too many years.

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» RE: misstexas kitty Posted by: Knot_Rich
Viruses
Posted by: Von on Oct 29, 2008 1:47 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
especially the Avian, is still a great danger. It never sleeps and does what viruses are mesnt to do..mutate to spread more efficiently. It is picking up characteristics to help to spread itself from human to human.

IF, a pandemic breaks out, people will be afraid to go to work, go to get groceries, send their kids to school..things will get pretty "historical" fairly quickly

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