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Recession? Depression? How Deep, How Far and What Can Be Done?

By Joshua Holland, AlterNet. Posted October 11, 2008.


A survey of what some of the best thinkers believe we're facing in the coming months and years -- and the best ways to prevent complete disaster.

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As the financial crisis gains steam, moving from overextended American households to global banking giants, fear of a major crash is spreading. Talk of "Another Great Depression" has entered the mainstream discourse, 1 out of 6 homeowners are "under water" -- owing more to the banks than their houses are worth -- and $2 trillion of retirement wealth has evaporated over the course of a few short months. The markets have not been "calmed" by the government's heavy interventions; the Dow Jones Industrial Average touched a five-year low this week, and is now 40 percent below its peak of one year ago.

The question on most people's minds is just how far and deep the fallout from the crisis will go. Are we looking at the kind of recessions we've seen -- and survived -- in the early 1980s, early 1990s and at the beginning of this century, or are we staring into an abyss that will be far more painful, one that will profoundly transform our lifestyles?

There's no definitive answer. We're in uncharted waters, and anyone who says they know what will transpire in the next few years is selling snake oil. But some deep thinkers who have a solid command of the structures of the global economy can help us understand the best- and worst-case scenarios, the way the crisis is changing some of the economic establishment's most cherished and long-standing assumptions and what role government -- the American government and those overseas -- might play in minimizing the damage created by Wall Street's excesses.

I contacted a number of leading experts this week -- all highly respected in their field -- to get their reads on the possible impacts of the financial sector's meltdown, the likelihood of the recent bailout having the desired effect and where we might go from here.

There was quite a bit of consensus on several points. First, all agreed that we're in the early stages of a deep recession. Second, most believed that it was in no way inevitable that the crisis would develop into a full-blown 1930s-style depression, and some were skeptical that such an event is even possible in today's economy. Third, all agreed that the length and depth of the crisis would hinge on the actions taken by governments in the coming months. Finally, there was something approaching a consensus that the economic and political establishment has been deeply shaken by the events of recent months, and that the banking mess might lead to a very different approach to governing the "free market."

The Worst-Case Scenario

In a nutshell, the lack of transparency in the system -- the fact that nobody knows precisely who's holding what liabilities on their books -- has the potential to lead to a global loss of confidence among investors and institutions, and what would effectively be the modern-day equivalent of a bank run on the myriad institutions that hold (or guarantee) "toxic" debt-backed securities.

That prospect has already led to a near-freeze in the flow of loans that individuals and businesses require, and if the credit system doesn't shake loose it will make the economic contraction that's already begun longer and more severe and lead to further financial losses.

That might create a vicious cycle in the "real" economy, as jobs are lost, people lose their homes, local governments' revenues -- in the United States, based largely on property taxes -- are cut and their work forces slashed.

As Max Wolff, an economist at the New School, wrote me via e-mail, "we're dependent on our banks. Thus, their pain is ours. Millions will be fired. Retirements will be decimated. Opportunity will vanish, (and) consumption will fall. Everyone is already deeply influenced. This will become more obvious and more painfully evident with each passing day. When it rains on the top of the hill, those who live on the bottom of the hill drown." He added, "there's now a major flight from all risk assets" which will "cause massive pain and dislocation in the developing world." Wolff predicted that "large sections of the consumption economy" will vanish, which will "slam into the leading exporters' markets and undermine much of the recent surge in commodity prices."

"We have now baked a severe and largely global recession into the cake," Wolff said. "The losses are already way too large to swallow. ... The numbers about failures from car dealerships, stores and many small businesses are alarming and will get worse." He added: "The epicenter of the crisis is already shifting out of America and finance."

That point was echoed by Walden Bello, a giant in the global justice movement and founder of the Third World Network, a group of NGOs focusing on development and poverty relief. Bello offered that "given the globalization of national economies over the last two decades, the downturn is going to be a synchronic one, and there is going to be no decoupling of one region from another." The crisis in the United States will continue to expand worldwide, at just the moment when international cooperation is most necessary. "For instance," Bello said, "China's main market is the United States, and China purchases many of its industrial inputs and raw materials from Japan, Korea and Southeast Asia. So Japan and Southeast Asia cannot rely on Chinese demand to make up for a fall in U.S. demand. China, East Asia and the U.S. are tied together like prisoners on a chain gang."


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See more stories tagged with: baker, economic crisis, bailout, galbraith, bello, wolff, hahnel, pollin

Joshua Holland is an AlterNet staff writer.

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View:
Great Depression II or close to it ...
Posted by: mmckinl on Oct 11, 2008 12:43 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why ?

Because our public, private and corporate debt are 350% of GDP ... This is a staggering debt never before seen in history ... ever. There is no way to pay down or even service the interest on this amount. The United States is basically insolvent and given the demands of the Baby Boomers it will only get worse.

Take a look at this graph:

Need More Than "Deleveraging" To Flatten THIS Debt Mountain

The only time we came even close to this current level of debt was in the 1930s AFTER the onset of Great Depression I. The more our GDP shrinks , and it will given the coming economic maelstrom, the higher our debt to GDP ratio goes.

We are already seeing the results of the ineffectual measures taken so far. Stock markets down dramatically and credit markets much worse than before. This administration is ideologically opposed to that which would work, FDRs bank holiday Plan, call it the Scandinavian or Swedish Plan if you like.By the time the next president takes office it will likely be too late to avoid most of the worst effects.

Our country is now over 45 Trillion in debt. At least half of that will have to be destroyed for the United States to become a viable country once again, and even then our economy will be much diminished as will our lifestyles.

With the right plan this transition could have been orderly and saved much of the economy. We are not headed in that direction. We are headed towards a crash where the baby will get thrown out with the bath water.

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» Kryptonite Posted by: Spot
It'll be much worse...
Posted by: nihilozero on Oct 11, 2008 1:31 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» All I know for sure is... Posted by: CosmoViking
» RE: All I know for sure is... Posted by: nihilozero
» I'm happy Posted by: Cathyc
I hope someone in Washington is listening.
Posted by: Sojourner on Oct 11, 2008 2:39 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I read this after listening to Moyers’ “Journal” interview with George Soros this week. The consensus seems to be that Paulson is not a very promising prospect for knowing the best action to take with all the money placed at his disposal. The markets agree. But if his latest announcement amounts to using it to recapitalize banks so they can lend, we may get some relief.

Also Soros agrees that the “false” ideology of unfettered free markets has lost its appeal.

The only bright spots I can see are that if this catastrophe had happened under a Demo administration, for the government to take action would have led to repeated filibusters by the wingnuts in the Senate. That still can happen but it is less likely if we get some of them dumped this November.

Will either Obama or McCain dare to talk about some solutions? So far, they have avoided exerting leadership. It is a loud condemnation of the American political system when candidates can persist in the middle of an undeniable economic emergency to avoid the issue. Fiddling while Rome burns is the cliché. But it fits, sadly.

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» Bare Arms Posted by: Cathyc
My biggest fear for the
Posted by: Farmertim on Oct 11, 2008 4:16 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
election in a few weeks is the fact that no matter who wins, both candidates are surrounded by the ideology that has created this mess.
As the piece said, greed and Trickle down has not done well, and all I am seeing in the bail out and other poor responses to our current ideology of capitalism is more of the same.
Looking for the next fool as a source of income has never made sense to me, and it appears to have fallen on its face.
Wether those who have gained power realize this or not depends how shielded they are from the pain we as common taxpayers have been feeling for a few years now.
Depression may not be enough to gain a true perspective of where we are and my fear is that the whole system will have to crash completely before the voters actually understand what being done to them.
FarmerTim

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» There is something you can do. Posted by: Last Chance
The race to the bottom - who didn't know this would happen?
Posted by: greentime on Oct 11, 2008 4:17 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These things cannot exist in the same space:

1.Rampant unregulated Speculation
(ie. gambling)

Speculation in land, (this also means resources in economics), speculation in derivatives, and speculation via shorting is what creates a false economy. What goes up into thin air, comes down.

2. Unfair trade and unfair global wages

Until wages go up, guess what? Nothing can move forward. People must be paid a fair wage. Everywhere that labor is exploited, the boom is for the masters, not the wage slaves. For workers, the economy eventually teeters and backslides.

This time, without any meaningful regulation, the greed was so vast it hurt the big boys. Suddenly, they care and take action - for their benefit.


Speculation is the force that creates a FALSE economy. It is the economic equivalent of hot air.

Unfair wages is a force (one of many) that concentrates too much wealth at the top and not enough wealth in the hands of the workers who create wealth for all.

Add to this the Republican lie of less taxation, when they in fact raise taxes on everything from your phone, cable, gas, food, clothing, shelter, schools and on and on... and we have a recipe for disaster.

This is going to be a long climb back up to where we were in the 1970s. Oh, we were in a recession then too, weren't we?

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The Revenue Stream is Gone
Posted by: websmith on Oct 11, 2008 5:20 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Interest has stripped the wealth from the population destroying the revenue stream.

$750 billion added to a $10 trillion national debt and the lala land politics that created it is good material for another Golden Compass type movie with Nicole Kidman. Imagine climbing a stack of dollar bills that reaches into space over three times the distance to the moon on your way to magic land. You hope that the fabled magic wand is there because, once you reach the top, you have to jump.

The only problem is that, this time, imaginations have led to reality and reality is madness. It's time to pull the plug on this fantasy movie.
http://ewebsmith.com/self/StandUp.html

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It is so very ironic that ...
Posted by: harryf200 on Oct 11, 2008 5:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... one place the stick market isn't in free fall is ... wait for it .... Iran!

Their day may come and soon, but for the time being, this "rogue state" is showing the rest of us they can play our game better than us.

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» Irag as well Posted by: EJW
GREED fails us every Time! Do something better with The Money! Invest in Ourselves!
Posted by: Ottomatic on Oct 11, 2008 5:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The failed Cor-pirate system based on the corrupt Ideology CAPITALISM is in a shambles.
Let's start over and build a Model Society that benefits everyone.
Build it on the solid foundation of our highest goals, values and ideals, instead of on the Quick Sand of Corporate GREED.
Trust in The Ideals and Values that made this Country Great.
Power to the People!
American Energy Independence in Ten years, for the sake of National Security and Sovereignty.

A Green Energy, Food Production and
Manufacturing Revolution.

How can we be free when we depend on Foreigners and Multi-National Corporations for our energy supply?
How can we defend ourselves when we have no manufacturing base?
We are Economically Defenseless.

The C.E.O.s have pulled off the biggest robbery of all time.
The largest transfer of wealth in History of the world,
From U.S. to them.
Billionaires-R-Us think they're entitled to everything.
What makes them so selfish?
Who teaches this BU__! SH__!?
Is this what they teach at Princeton and Harvard?
Unmitigated: GREED

Bush is the Bottom of the Barrel of the Aristocratic Trash Heap.
Bush thinks he can run roughshod over the American People.
W for WRONG Bush!
He is the problem.
Everything he touches turns to Shit!
The negative Human traits that he displays are the problem.
Selfishness and GREED got us into this mess and it will never get us out.
Leave it, Him and the Capital Imperialism rode in on, in the waste basket where they all belong.

Freedom comes at a price.
Eternal Vigilism.
It must be protected, extolled and nourished, so that everyone can share in natures bounty.

Giving more money to these greedy, morally corrupt Corporations is like pumping gasoline on a Fire.
We need dramatic change and sweeping reforms to create a new stable system.
Corporate regulation and Humanization is fundamental to this change.
End and reverse all cor-pirate Privatization.
Repatriate all of America’s Natural resources for National Security.
Cut the umbilical cord between the Multi-National Corporations and our Government Treasury.
End Corporate Socialism.
Kick out the Federal Reserve Bankers, they have failed U.S.
When Corporations want to do business here,
They will have to abide by a new set of rules and pay a use TAX.
Kick the lobbyists out of Washington.
Slam the Revolving Door, in big, bad, Business’s Face.

Take the money out of Politics.
Publicly fund all Elections.
Create a verifiable paper trail.
Scrap all the Diebold Black Box voting machines.
Guarantee that each and every vote is counted.
Level the Playing Field so that anyone can run for Political Office.
We need a larger cross section of our populace represented.

No Human Rights for a Corporation.
They are a Capital Appendage,
Citizens and People have Rights.
Corporate Machines have none.

Money has to be put back into the pockets of every American Citizen fast.
That system is crashing.
Let's move on.
When the Horse Dies?
Get OFF!
What have you got to lose?
We can do better!

Take back the Media.
Break up the Media Monopolies.
One outlet in one market.
We need a vibrant, flourishing, Local, Independent Media.

Join the Micro Democracy Revolution
It begins in your back yard.
Green energy production,
Organic vegetables,
Self sufficiency and
Higher Efficiency.

We can do it, if we try!
Aim high and shoot for the Stars.
Bring Heaven down to Earth.

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» Back To The Land Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: Back To The Land Posted by: richholland
Nice
Posted by: RedFoxOne on Oct 11, 2008 6:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Its pretty clear we have passed the point of no return and its only going to get worse. God help us all if that idiot McBush wins the election next month. If you ask me, Dictator Bush has single handedly DESTROYED this country! He is the bigggest Weapon of Mass Destruction of EVER go off in this country! Very sad indeed.

Jiff
Privacy Center

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» So Simple? Posted by: edgar1
» RE: The Whole Credit System Is A Fiction Posted by: wagnerrocks@gmail.com
» "A System That Can Never Work." Posted by: Last Chance
» Reality check Posted by: jbloggz
» Six Pack or Fight Posted by: edgar1
» RE: Nice Posted by: harryf200
» RE: Nice Posted by: donl51
» So why the surprize Red Fox? Posted by: aussidawg
The D word
Posted by: 8 nontheist on Oct 11, 2008 6:45 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Joshua Holland, of AlterNet, & Barry Grey or Gray, of WSWS, have uttered the word depression today, 10/11/08. Two progressive sites are telling the full truth. When will the MSM start telling us that we're in a depression? Try the 12th of never. We have to clean up the mess from the melt-down & rergulate banking-finance with strong New-Deal style regulations at once. These regulations must be enforced by people who'll have the power to enforce these regulations strictly. Penalties for violating these regulations must be severe, enforced quickly with severe rigor. Swift, severe & sure punishment for all violations of the new requlations must be national policy. Regulations must be modified quickly when we see that they aren't producing desirable effects. The regulations must be fine tuned so that we can recover from this depression as soon as possible. Our legislators must learn to change unsuitable regulations & keep an eagle eye on those who enforce these regulations & the enterprises subject to the regulations. Excesses in enforcment can't be tolerated but nonenforcment & noncompliance can't be tolerated either. Supervised individual enterprise can function & prosper under these conditions so we can recover.

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fantasy senario...
Posted by: ellie on Oct 11, 2008 6:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ideas that might work but doubt it because the G7 is meeting with the IMF this weekend in DC, but here goes... (the big boys with the big stick are in town)and don't mean the G7...

wall street holiday until further notice... freeze the markets where they are until principle can be sorted out from credit and inflation... prove it or loose it...

a week bank freeze to let the dust settle so the banks can finally see what crap is on their books... bank runs??? hell, give folks a couple of days notice and limit withdrawals to cash in accounts, no borrowing allowed... folks will re-deposit after the freeze is lifted, if they have faith in their own banks...

make banks re-open according to credit union rules... including no $$ in the fund, no loans...

housing??? everyone dig out those original mortgage papers and drag them down to a central location for review... re-appraise all property back to historical price trends BEFORE prices jumped in the area... 30 year fixed, good to go, but adjust principal and property taxes to trends before boom... everyone else, 20% down, fixed rate 30 year... don't qualify, then rent at current re-appraised rate...

adjust minimum wage to a living wage not slave wages... reduce tax burden to ordinary people to 15% with no add ons...

big paychecks = big taxes maybe 50% to help mop up this mess...

restore gold standard for dollar... see credit union rules above...

this would be a start at getting back to the cost of goods produced and sold for a reasonable profit, melt away tons of stuff on the market people really don't need and knock off the speculation and greed that began this mess in the first place...

from the bottom up, this can be fixed... well, it's a good starting fantasy isn't it???

back to coffee...

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» RE: fantasy senario... Posted by: VZEQICVA
» Forgive debt.... Posted by: EJW
» RE: fantasy senario... Posted by: aussidawg
Federal Reserve Bank along with Fractional Banking Must Go
Posted by: 911FalseFlag on Oct 11, 2008 6:52 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just like in 2004, the Democratic presidential and vice presidential candidates are not being truthful about the fake war on terror, a false flag attack of 9/11, the scam of the Federal Reserve Bank and the easily hackable electronic voting machines and central tabulators.
The reason is that the Democrats have been completely complicit in all of the criminal actions and war crimes committed by Bush. If they blow the whistle, then they will be implicated.

Guess who the biggest campaign contributor to George W. Bush is? MBNA, a big credit card company. MBNA wrote the legislation that radically changed the bankruptcy laws in the US.
Predatory lending, which used to be the province of criminal loan sharks, is now the norm in the lending industry in the US.
Today's banking crisis is the THIRD trillion dollar plus US-caused financial meltdown in the last twenty years.
Each one of these crises came into being through the same basic mechanism...the fraudulent over-valuing of financial assets by Wall Street - with a "wink and a nod" (and sometimes a lot more) from the White House and Congress. The fraudulently valued assets stimulate the economy, impart the illusion of health and then, inevitably, the fraud goes too far and the whole house of card comes painfully crashing back to earth.
The White House stood in the way of any state prosecuting federal banks and mortgage companies for predatory lending. They actually used a portion of the enabling act creating the US Comptroller of the Currency to preempt the regulation and prosecution of these banks for fraudulent loan activities. This is why Eliot Spitzer was politically assassinated. He wrote an editorial in the Washington Post three weeks before his assassination accusing the White House of preventing any state Attorney General from prosecuting these criminal activities. Of course, the mainstream media did not report the actual reason that this politician’s sexual indiscretions were reported so immediately and excessively.

The mainstream media never reported on Bush planting in the White House press corps a gay escort, Johnny Gannon. Gannon based on the Secret Service records of visits to the White House visited the White House over 200 times and stayed overnight at least two times.

Go to my website, www.911insidejob.net and read many articles and watch videos on the well planned takedown of the US dollar by the Bush White House and the Federal Reserve Bank.

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» Phony Elliiot Posted by: edgar1
Inflate
Posted by: edgar1 on Oct 11, 2008 7:25 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Our leaders are pumping trillions of fake money into the financial system. Print money to buy bad mortgages, buy stakes in troubled banks, provide capital to banks that should be raising capital on the market. Plus keep the deficit where it is now, and elect Obama who will pump up the money supply by at least another trillion in his new spending and tax "cuts". Of course his capital gain taxes will raise less than planned and income of the 'rich" will flee overseas or into shelters.

Inflation of unimagined proportions will be the result of these rescues of banks. Oil prices will again soar. Food and yes, even housing will increase. Incomes however will plunge, eroded by inflation and low productivity. The cowardly Fed will continue to keep rates low to keep the Obamaites happy, and unemployment will soar.

Lest anyone accuse me of partisanship, a similar scenario will happen with the inept McCain.

America has lived above its means. Time to pay.

The effect? Look at Germany and Italy after WWI. People will turn very nasty. I don't think illegal immigrants will be popular, and "multiculturalism" will be as dead as Lehman Bros.

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» RE: Inflate Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Inflate Posted by: aussidawg
» You're alone here . . . Posted by: 6399
THE HOUSING BUBBLE - COMPLETE FABRICATOIN
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Oct 11, 2008 7:51 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The housing bubble simply meant that banks had loaned boatloads of money to developers to build houses, and they did. Many more than we needed. They had to be sold so the builders could repay the banks. First thing was to get rid of existing rules regarding loans. That was easy. The 'designer loan' was born and subsequently sold to buyers who were not informed of what they were about to do. Any financial instrument must be thoroughly explaned to a prospective buyer. That's the law. Cavea Emptor goes just so far. So the great American dream was made available to countless people. Had they known what the consequences were they would have walked away. A new form of debt was created all based on the assumption that the value of every house would increase. In retrospect it's easy to understand. A few years ago it was nothing more than wishful thinking and there were many warnings. But too many people were making too much money. So, how far is up? We just found out. How far is down remainins to be seen. While the great minds are figuring out the answers we have an obligation to keep as many people as possible in their homes. More than financial solutions and redesigning our economics this country and it's leaders have to grow a conscience. Thanks, ANNA

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» A Broader Perspective Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: A Broader Perspective Posted by: hilaryuk
» RE: THE HOUSING BUBBLE - HUH??? Posted by: left_libertarian
» Follow The Money Posted by: Last Chance
Welcome to the real world.
Posted by: symcokid on Oct 11, 2008 7:56 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Depression is already here and there is nothing that anybody can do about it, learn to live with it, work around it and give thanks to all of our so called experts and world leaders.

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» There Is Something You Can Do Posted by: Last Chance
The capitalist elites have already chosen Obama as next US President
Posted by: marxistsocialist on Oct 11, 2008 8:23 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The corporate elites have already chosen Obama as next US President

http://www.marxists.org/

corporate elites have already chosen Obama who will be the next corporate president. In most bourgeousie-republican electoralist systems presidents are chosen before elections. Elections are just circus for the wage-slaves and the sub-human herd

.

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» ....WRONG... Posted by: donl51
» Think Beyond Today Posted by: Last Chance
» Yu misunderstand Marxism! Posted by: harryf200
» RE: ....WRONG... Posted by: harryf200
» RE: ....WRONG...and again! Posted by: donl51
» RE: ....WRONG...and again! Posted by: harryf200
» RE: ....WRONG... Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: ....WRONG... Posted by: buzzsaw
» Decentralization Posted by: EJW
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!
Posted by: susan rosenthal1 on Oct 11, 2008 8:35 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How many times must the working class bail out the capitalist system?

Enough is enough!

The only real solution to this crisis-ridden system is for the working class to take control of production and run the world for people, not profits. POWER and Powerlessness

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» Problem solved Posted by: Physiocrat
Pay for the wars as you go
Posted by: PaulK on Oct 11, 2008 11:01 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nobel Prize-winning economist Joseph Stieglitz estimates that over the long term the Iraq war cost more than $4 trillion already. We can probably add $.75 trillion per extra year beyond 2008.

This depression is not a Wall Street game, it's a Washington game. Wall Street just woke up. Halfway. Washington is sleepwalking through the crisis.

Giving a mere $700 billion U.S. dollars to the banks did not solve the problem. The U.S. Treasury is the problem.

To ameliorate the great depression, first stop the war. Then stop the Arctic methane bomb. Simultaneously, get us off coal first and oil second. Shift to self-heating houses, wind and solar electricity with pumped hydro storage (or equivalent), and mostly electric transit or electric vehicles. A series of electric battery swapping stations for cars would make L.A. quite drivable and smog-free too.

No bogus global warming plans from Washington, please. Corn ethanol takes a bit more oil to grow than it delivers in fuel, but government subsidies make the charade work. Nuclear plants have exactly the same problem. They are net oil consumers over their expected lifetimes, and that doesn't even count the leaks and loss of coolant accidents.

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get rid of the screwheads!!!!
Posted by: jeffrey7 on Oct 11, 2008 11:08 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I thought shit was wierd when I was a kid and I saw the cops take cattle-prods and firehoses to people just for wanting to eat lunch downtown. I did'nt know shit about race but I did know about 'heavy-handedness',which is what I was seeing. Over the tracings of time since then I've seen little change. Cops that use plungers on prisoners to relieve constapation and get off with pay seems like torture to me. Watching folks lives evaporate behind the collapse of the Savings and Loan Companies back in the late 80"s. Seeing this governance increasingly turn away from the Rights of the People to become the World's Asswad with a club and then of course, good ol' W. That shitstain on the gown of Lady Liberty,the World's first surviving abortion. Yes,the King Turd of his cesspool of a Cabinet.Some of the biggest crooks in the World have made up the Bush Administrations. Folks that would rather shoot you in the face than pass any meaningful legislation for the people.
People,I'm telling you true... We're dealing with a dick with two heads.The Parties have become one. The appearence of difference is smoke snd mirrors. This bailout is a prime example. They stuff money up rich folks asses,knowing it won't help anyway,and then have the unmitigated gall to blame it on folks buying houses. Worse yet these escapees from the avatwar the Congress believes it's because folks got loans for homes they could'nt afford. Wake up you shit for brains asskissers. A mortgage lender can't give you a loan for bigger than you're pre-qualified for. I might have wanted the big house with the pool and all the bells and whistles but the fact is my income and credit rating only put me able to buy a crib with a top price of $125,000. There was no way the mortgage folks were going to set me up with a $300,000 debt I could'nt payoff. What fucked everybody royal was mortgage lenders screwing everybody and his brother into ARM loans. Basically it's a loan where you start out paying little and later wind up having to pull money out of you ass to keep your home. Any politician that thinks they just gave loans away like candy to the underquailfied has their head so far up their asses they can only see their own shit!!!
What's real is this.... The real middle class starts at about $250,000 a year. Half of us have to get by on $32,000 or less. Both Candidates are only talking about helping out the middleclasses. Where is the help for the real people? You know,the half of us that can't get out of low-income,pay the most taxes,get the least help and draw the harshest penalties if we're caught with a joint. You know,the 150,000,000 people that can turn the election on it's head. The 150,000,000 that can convince the cops and the military we're not the enemy of Freedom and Liberty. The 150,000,000 that believe we're a better people than the shitbags we're protrayed as throughout the media. The 150,000,000 that have fired up the tar-cookers. The 150,000,000 that are so mad at this farce of a governance we've plucked live chicken feathers and believe me, you have to be pretty pissed to have plucked chickens walking about but that's how fed up we are with our government paying off their rich pals and fucking the rest of us in the process.
Just like back in the late 70's Uncle PissyPants projections that inflation would hit 20%,which it did,we're told we have'nt seen the bottom of the Wall St. collapse.

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Ask the greedy rich bastards who started our crisis.
Posted by: NoMcCainPalin on Oct 11, 2008 11:21 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They can be found at their annual "Renaissance Weekend" gathering -- a secret bipartisan meeting place for America's Power Elite

For investigative journalists interested in how the Power Elite has maintained its economic chokehold on America's middleclass and working poor, begin by googling "Renaissance Weekend."

An exclusive upper crust retreat founded in 1981 by Philip Lader, former U.S. Ambassador to the UK, and his wife, Linda LeSourd Lader, Renaissance Weekends are private, invitation-only retreats for leaders in business and finance, government, the media, religion, medicine, science, technology and the arts.

Conversations are strictly off the record and subject matter ranges widely, tending to focus heavily on policy and business issues.

Previous Renaissance Weekends were co-hosted by presidents Bill Clinton and Gerald Ford.

For a list of past attendees, click on Renaissance Weeked

Here is a partial list of names and their credentials:

Stephen Breyer (Associate Justice of U.S. Supreme Court)

Louis Cabot (Former Chm., Cabot Corp. & Brookings Institution)

Steve Case (Former Chm., AOL Time Warner)

Gordon Conway (Former President, Rockefeller Foundation)

Howard Fineman (Chief Political Correspondent, Newsweek/TV Commentator)

David Gergen (Former Reagab Advisor/Editor-at-large, U.S. News & World Report)

Bob Graham (Former U.S. Senator & Florida Governor)

Sir Jeremy Greenstock (Former British Ambassador to the United Nations)

Ricki Tigert Helfer (Former Chair, Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation)

Alexis Herman (Former U.S. Secretary of Labor)

Arianna Huffington (Political Commentator)

Rich Karlgaard (Publisher, Forbes)

David A. Keene (Chairman, The American Conservative Union)

William Kennard (Partner, Carlyle Group/Former Chm., Federal Communications Commission)

Frank Luntz (Republican Political Consultant)

Sir Deryck Maughan (Former Chm., Citigroup International)

Newton Minow (Former Chm., F.C.C. & RAND Corp.)

Leslie Moonves (Chm., CBS)

Jay Nordlinger (Managing Editor, National Review)

Norman Ornstein (Resident Scholar, American Enterprise Institute)

William Perry (Former U.S. Secretary of Defense)

David Pottruck (Former Chief Executive Officer, Charles Schwab Corp.

Charles Robb (Former U.S. Senator & Virginia Governor)

Lord Robertson of Port Ellen (Former N.A.T.O. Secretary-General)

Judith Rodin (President, Rockefeller Foundation & Former President, University of Pennsylvania)

Paul Russo (Former Special Assistant to President Reagan)

Lamin Sanneh (Professor of World Religions, Yale University)

Diane Sawyer (TV News Host)

Robert Schuller II (Minister)

Christopher Shays (U.S. Congressman)

John Templeton, Jr. (President, Templeton Foundation)

Richard Viguerie (Former Publisher, Conservative Digest)

Murray Weidenbaum (Former Chm., President Reagan's Council of Economic Advisers)

Marina von Neumann Whitman (Frmr. Member, President Nixon's Council of Economic Advisers)

One more thing. If you're an undecided voter, learn the truth about Unfit McCain and his treasonous POW record by clicking on: Vote Against McCain (one of the HOTTEST anti-McCain sites on the Web)

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» RE: I guessed right Posted by: avatar_singh
Confidence
Posted by: oregoncharles on Oct 11, 2008 11:40 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Notice how often economists mention "confidence?"

Isn't that a type of game - as in, "Confidence Game?"

To be precise, high finance is a Ponzi scheme. That's why it collapses regularly: they always do.

A note of caution from Hahnel: "In 1999 Phil Graham, Robert Rubin and Bill Clinton killed Glass Steagall, signaling the return and triumph of free market finance.", and thus, of course, the present collapse.

Isn't Rubin one of Obama's top advisors?

Pyramid scheme, anyone? Or a nice bridge?

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» Just a Question Posted by: thinks4herself2008
» RE: Just a Question Posted by: oregoncharles
"Free Market" ideology = A 'free looting' Ponzi scheme
Posted by: amacd on Oct 11, 2008 11:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Support for ‘free market’ ideology, in a system which allows the well known ‘market failure’ of ‘negative externality cost dumping’ to be ‘gamed’, is merely support for ‘free looting’, which most knowledgeable people from George Akerlof, US Nobel laureate in economics, to Noam Chomsky recognize.

It should be clearly explained that the root cause of this crisis is crony capitalism's biggest and most 'gamed' market-failure in history --- negative externality cost scamming, as applied to 'debt bombs' in our collective financial lungs, rather than the older model of cigarette smoke cancer in customers' lungs.

Same scam ---- 'gaming' the well known 'market failure' of allowing 'negative externality costs' to be dumped.

Only difference --- this time it's applied to financial products as the cancer carriers, instead of industrial products.

Lesson: if 'negative externality cost' dumping is allowed anywhere in a so-called 'free market', it destroys the market, it destroys people, it destroys the environment, it destroys any common human trust, and it is nothing but 'free looting' for those who game this market failure.

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They say..charity begins at home...
Posted by: donl51 on Oct 11, 2008 12:40 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
.....so lets start screaming in the streets...bring our troops home now!...not tomorrow or next year.bring them home from Iraq...we did Bushs bidding.let those people get their own shit in order...as for Afghanistan...same deal most of the country likes the Taliban...and we're not going to catch bin laden anytime soon,bring our troops home so we can fix our damn economy.no more nice guy shelling out our money to keep our friends.we gotta pay more at the pump!,join the rest of planet earth!...Israell can take care of itself....it'll simply nuke the entire middle east ,and show us all what nazi's they've become....what goes around comes around...we can hang Bush and Chaney too,after a fair trial of course!!

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» gotta get off oil first Posted by: sunspot
regarding the bailout
Posted by: Mikediane on Oct 11, 2008 1:20 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To quote Daniel Quinn in his book "Ishmael" : "like the man in the joke who jumps out of a ninetieth-floor window on a bet. As he passes the tenth floor, he says to himself, 'Well, so far so good!'."

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Bring on the Depression
Posted by: tommy_slothrop on Oct 11, 2008 1:32 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Are we looking at the kind of recessions we've seen -- and survived -- in the early 1980s, early 1990s and at the beginning of this century, or are we staring into an abyss that will be far more painful, one that will profoundly transform our lifestyles?"

Is there anybody left who doesn't realize that a profound transformation of our life styles is exactly what needs to happen? So lets bring it on. It doesn't have to be that painful - psychologically painful, perhaps, for those who have a lot invested in the status quo but these people should have known better. The rottenness of the system has been apparent for decades to anyone who bothered to look. This degree of ignorance has to be considered to be a choice.

As others have pointed out, this country has overinvested in housing. No one should have to go homeless. We have the resources in this country to grow more food than we need. No one should have to go hungry. The same goes for heating houses. If the current economic system fails to enable this to be done (e.g., if there isn't credit available for farmers to plant crops) then other means will have to be found. This is a more appropriate use for government intervention than propping up the current economic system.

What we can't afford is consumerism and militarism. Militarism is how we got out of the Great Depression and militarism is what has held up the system ever since - along with consumerism.

One of the primary roles of consumerism today is to create the demand for militarism. The same people profit from both. Without one the other wouldn't be able to sustain itself.

We all know the numbers: with 5% of the world's people we consume 25% of the world's oil and make 50% of the world's weapons.

The problem with all of this is jobs. The collapse of the system will result in unemployment and the necessities of life are only made available to those who have one of their "jobs", most of which involve facilitating consumerism and militarism.

The solution lies in work sharing. Rather than creating jobs doing things that would be better undone we reduce work hours until everybody can be employed doing the things that need to be done.

I, for one, would enjoy being unemployed (and may soon) as long as it didn't render me hungry, homeless or without shelter. I also wouldn't mind working 20 hours per week (or however many hours it would take) to do my share.

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» RE: Bring on the Depression Posted by: donl51
» RE: Bring on the Depression Posted by: harryf200
» RE: Bring on the Depression Posted by: donl51
» Don Posted by: harryf200
» RE: Harry Posted by: donl51
» RE: Bring on the Depression Posted by: richholland
» RE: Bring on the Depression Posted by: buzzsaw
» RE: Bring on the Depression Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: I agree with you Posted by: avatar_singh
So More FASCISM is a cure for FASCISM?
Posted by: Mister_PsyOps on Oct 11, 2008 3:24 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Despite the general consensus among the experts I surveyed that we are almost certainly headed into very rough waters, there was cause for optimism as well, in that most agreed that aggressive and coordinated actions by government could contain the damage."

Yes, of course the same Washington-MSM establishment “experts” that only months ago said the “fundamentals of our economy are sound” (etc, etc) will "contain the damage".

WARNING: this has zero to do with "Keynesians" or "Keynesian economics" that itself was a fraud under JM Keynes who helped foist together David Rockefellers World Bank and IMF.

Beware false labels and their snake oil apologists.

A government controlled and operated by parasite Monopoly Organized Corporate Crime is what created this mess. In other words – de facto Fascism without real connection to “capitalism” or “democracy” (other than as transparent Orwellian slogans). More of the same corporate crime rule will only “bailout” its ruling class corporate felons and perpetuate the madness.

To cut to the chase, the “expert” fox is in the hen house and wants to “fix” things.

At best, the theme and core of this article is red herring nonsense.


"We will not have any more crashes in our time."
John Maynard Keynes (economist credited with “Keynesian Economics” advocating centrally planned and controlled economy. Quoted two years before the Great Depression. Quote 1927)

“The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled…The study of money, above all other fields is one in which complexity is used to disguise truth or evade truth, not to reveal it.”
John Kenneth Galbraith (renowned economist 1908-2006)

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Cut it out like cancer
Posted by: snowhound on Oct 11, 2008 3:40 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Solve this crisis by:

1. Eliminate Medicare and all state subsidized health care. It breeds sickness anyway. If you need an emergency operation, the state could consider funding this. No more prescription drugs. Find a natural alternative or if your too far gone, it's time to die.

2. Eliminate Social Security for all people under the age of 55 years. You'll just have to keep working to make ends meet or depend on your family.

3. End the American Empire. Pull out of every country we are presently occupying or have military bases in. The rest of the world is on its own. Set up a strong national defense at our boders only.

4. Eliminate the Federal Reserve and put the power of printing the dollar back with the people, not private bankers. Pay off all existing debt by temporarily raising taxes.

5. Bring back the gold standard and back paper with sound money.

6. Legalize recreational drugs and end the war on drugs.

6. Practice free trade policies with no government subsidies. Pass laws that protect human health and environment. No more poisons in our food and products.

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» RE: Cut it out like cancer Posted by: HoboHomo
» Look over your shoulder Posted by: edgar1
» RE: Cut it out like cancer Posted by: richholland
» govt is a cancer Posted by: edgar1
current economic crisis
Posted by: eric swan on Oct 11, 2008 4:31 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
George Bush was known by his familly as a "hot head, and hachet man". Not fit for the highest office in the land and yet he was sellected! Humm, makes one wonder what the powers that be wanted? Well I'll tell you what they wanted,(not that I know who they are). They wanted massive destruction on every level, you know, crisis capitalism, which is what we are now getting. Of course the global economy will continue to collapse, and of course there will be massive consolidation in the financial institutions and the means of production. It's called creative destruction. Should we be angry? No, we should be FURIOUS.

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IOUSA -- Spread the word!
Posted by: svy on Oct 11, 2008 5:10 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The movie US citizens need to see to understand the economic waterfall ahead

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBo2xQIWHiM

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No Great Depression Coming
Posted by: Dboy on Oct 11, 2008 5:55 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't think this will be a depression. My prediction is that this will be a very deep recession (9% official unemployment at the peak, which means %15-18 real unemployment rate).

The rebound out of the recession will be so weak as to be non-existent, because there will be no American industry capable of driving a major expansion. In my opinion, the candidate industries for driving a new economic boom are: Tech (including hardware companies like Apple, and software/web applications like Google, and emerging VoIP/convergence technologies), Biotech/Medical technologies, Robotics, Nanotechnology, Energy (traditional), Energy (emerging). Although some of these industries are great and exciting (especially biotech), I seriously doubt that any of these will have the strength to drive a general boom in the American economy. All of the industries in my list require advanced education, large amounts of capital, and considerable R&D lag time. In addition, the emerging technologies are more likely to thrive outside the US rather than within it, due to various cultural factors. To the exist that there is a boom in these industries they will be extremely localized, and therefore expansion will be uneven across the US. Many parts of the US will NEVER feel an expansion. I'm also guessing this will drive the "new urbanism" to finally happen, with many suburbs never regaining their lost real estate values.

On a positive note, I am also predicting that university towns will do really well out of all this, as kids choose to stay in school longer and finish up Masters/Ph.D programs rather than dealing with harsh economic times. Possible risks there are that student loans may be difficult to acquire and R&D funding/grants will be harder to get in this environment. The bottom line is that I do not see an industry out there at the moment that is capable of driving a new economic boom...and that's really scary.

dboy

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» RE: Dude Posted by: limeres
» RE: Dude Posted by: Dboy
The end of history
Posted by: blogbooks on Oct 11, 2008 7:39 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is a deliberate and controlled crisis brought upon by the international banking elite that print all of the fiat currency upon which the entire world has become dependent. Just another power grab towards their end goal of eternal world domination under one world government and the destruction of national sovereignty.

They ran everything up and allowed it to be run up (leveraged) to ridiculous heights for the very purpose of eventually bringing it all down. Now you see them, and the governments they control, "nationalizing" banks and other financial institutions, and soon companies themselves. This strengthens the international banking elite.

There is nothing you can do about it. Your government (whether American or not) is under their heel. The international banking elite can destroy any nation on Earth at a whim, including the United States. They can cause World War 3 at will. Nations are their puppets.

Don't bother voting unless you really want a few hours off of work that day. Your vote between an old man and a nitwit cooze, and a smooth talking Chicago politician and a New England member of the political elite means nothing. The only thing you can do is try to protect yourself and anyone you care about during the depression that is now guaranteed to grip the world for at least the next 3 to 5 years.

Your nation has already lost its sovereignty to the international banking elite. They can declare a state of martial law and take the nation by force whenever they like. So sit back, turn on the TV, keep using your credit card, keep going to work (if you can find it), and shut your mouth. The concept of freedom and democracy is officially dead.

This is a return to a more natural state of existence for man - as a peasant under the heal of an all powerful elite. Historically speaking, the wealth, freedom, affluence, educational attainment, and political power enjoyed by the people of the United States in the 20th century is an anomaly.

If you're over 50, don't worry, you'll be dead before it really gets bad. If you care about your family/children, send them overseas. Better to be a peasant under a socialist system that pretends to care about its people than a peasant under a fascist dictatorship that grinds them into dust before they are 45 years old.

C'est la vie.

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» RE: The end of history Posted by: richholland
» RE: The end of history Posted by: stopthemaddness2
» RE: The end of history Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: The end of history Posted by: Dboy
brave new world
Posted by: richholland on Oct 11, 2008 7:51 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
an elite of fighters living in big mansions.
servants speaking another language.
workers under bad condition.

The idea being a superior being .

USA 2008
No the Fascistic state according Adolf H and Benito Mussolini.
Stop the wars and use the money for a social system that works.
Without rethinking values without changing political old fashioned ideas all efforts re the Depression are without meaning.

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SO THE DEPRESSION IS HERE, WHAT NOW?
Posted by: stopthemaddness2 on Oct 11, 2008 9:08 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So what now? Can anyone answer that question?

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» RE: SO THE DEPRESSION IS HERE, WHAT NOW? Posted by: stopthemaddness2
When the next president get's in.....
Posted by: eosrk on Oct 11, 2008 9:30 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
for Obama, the Dow, the main driver, drops to around 4000......McCain, it can drop way down to 2000....or to almost zero....it relies on one factor none of the experts touch on.....it called the race to the bottom.

Ladies and Gentlemen, they achived it!!!

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cocacolocao
Posted by: cocacolocao on Oct 11, 2008 9:35 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let the CEO's and the partners, the people at the top of the pyramid, pay. Guarnishee their wealth and assets and use that to equilibrate wealth to a degree, any degree, it has got to be better to distribute wealth among a larger minority, than concentrate it in the hands of a few individuals, the 'special interests' as Woodrow Wilson described them:
Woodrow Wilson, quotes about Conspiracy:

"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the civilized world. No longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men."
Woodrow Wilson quotes

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an idea for the eletric car...
Posted by: eosrk on Oct 11, 2008 9:43 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
..this may sound silly, but I had a thought on this....since the experts say it takes 10 to 30 hours to recharge an eletric vechile from an almost dead charge, and since it uses household current, which is 120 volt....is it possible.....just maybe....that someone can design an small transformer that can step that power up to, I dunno, a few thousand volts. I mean, it will cut down on the time it takes to reacharge to maybe an hour or two, and I bet it would espically work with self-powered houses.

It's just a thought!I mean, it's still using 120 volt ac power, it's just being stepped up...power companies step up their power with large ones....why not build house-type ones....the eletric companies wouldn't like that idea, but I think it's a good one. Telsa did it, why can't we....he invented altering current.

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Our Tea Party
Posted by: bessie on Oct 11, 2008 11:18 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One problem with your whole tale is the fact that you ignore the certain facts of the "Tea Party". Americans are a crazy lot and one good thing is that America is so vast.There's always a breaking point. It's totally unfair and unrealistic to think that Americans won't fight for anything. That's our history above and beyond anyone else. It's tragic that for the actions of certain criminals that we find our society - American and globally in the same state. But to underestimate the courage and determination of many American citizens is to ignore our genetic history. Beware of the sleeping Tea Party.

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We Have Seen The Enemy
Posted by: NoPCZone on Oct 12, 2008 2:50 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The criminals that have corrupted our nation's financial system by gaming the system, buying votes for deregulation and taking the bribes, stealing the retirement funds of millions and causing very real pain to all are far worse than the despicable hate mongers that came from the Middle East to attack us.

Yes, I said worse.

You see- they are unrepentant, don't think they have done anything wrong and care not if you have a home or a meal tomorrow. They think the mass of the people of the planet are sheep to be sheared for their pleasure and profit.

How bad things get depends largely upon what choices are made- most of which will not involve us. When Congress votes against a measure a month before an election that is getting calls 100-1 against, you know that the fix is in. Wall Street is calling in all of it's chips and they are again playing with your money and that of your progeny.

If we don't bust all of these thieves and perp walk them down the main streets of the most downtrodden towns of America in shackles then justice will not have been served. Around each criminal's neck will be a sign listing how much they have swindled, stolen or misappropriated. The politicians who sold out their sacred trust will have a sign listing their state or district along with the number of lost jobs and funds came from their district.

They will not be fed, clothed or housed as they continue their national tour of apology or repentance- they will be at the mercy of the citizens they have swindled for food, water, clothing and shelter.

That would be a good start toward a just punishment and rehabilitation.

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RE: IMPLOSION
Posted by: sirios on Oct 12, 2008 1:26 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nicely put. your assessment is far more inciteful than attempting to restore a rotten apple to its shiny skin state, so we may continue our greedy consumption and learn no lessons from all this.

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Time for a New Direction
Posted by: ChangeAdvocat on Oct 12, 2008 7:08 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are trying to swallow the Financial White Elephant Whole, instead of a bite at a time.

Our immediate Concern should be short-term lending instead of trying to Capitalize enough
Bank Debt to restore confidence (I don't believe it can be done).

Instead, the Government should temporarily wave Minimum Capitalization requirements, Curtail Bank Mergers and Aquisitions and force Banks to contribute a portion of their deposits to a Government Created Short Term Lending Bank. The Government would use this Capital along with the 700 Billion plus it already has, to generate short term loans.

(If Creating a huge new Bank in a short time, seems like an insurmountable task,imagine what the 172,000 People who lost their Financial jobs in the last year could do if given the right direction.)

Once Short Term Lending Stabilizes, the Bank could permanently supply only a portion of the Nations' Short Term loans.

The profits from the Short Term Bank would be used to generate Low cost short term Loans for Homeowners in distress.

With the burden of short term lending,and the hopes of Aquisitions, temporarily removed from Financial Institutions they would have time to develope Free Market Solutions for their debt.

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A Bold New Solution
Posted by: ChangeAdvocat on Oct 12, 2008 8:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Banks strayed from their Primary Purpose.This is to function as Lending Institutions,not as Investment Clearing Houses. Why do we continue to "buy" into this?

Our Immediate goal should be to fix short term lending, not restore confidence in what we
all know is inappropriate actions by Banks. If the Banks are not willing or able to lend, then the Government should wave whatever regulations necessary, borrow some Bank Deposits, add it to the 700 Billion it already has then make short term lending happen.

The Government could create a short term lending institution. (I'd bet 172,000 people who lost their Financial Jobs recently could make it happen quickly). The borrowed Bank Deposits would be returned as profit is generated.

Once the burden(?)of short term lending is temporarily or permanently removed from Banks, they will have time and resources to find "Free Market" Solutions to their Capitalization Problems.

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All Wealth Comes From the Earth
Posted by: Last Chance on Oct 12, 2008 8:43 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The financial collapse is the inevitable result of too much of a good thing turning bad. Too many people grabbing for too much credit inflated a bubble that had to burst.

Therefore, it is now time to return to basic principles --

The wealth of nations comes from the land and sea, the vegetables we grow, the seafood we harvest, the minerals we mine, the oil we drill, etc. So, it is necessary to protect those resources from too much exploitation by a relentlessly growing population and its expanding industrial pollution.

We need family planning clinics Worldwide to give each woman the right to decide if and when to birth her children. That way the human population will decline to a healthy balance with the Earth's ability to support us, while we recycle 100% of all garbage and waste.

But that smaller population would only explode again if we failed to discipline ourselves by living only within continental networks of eco-tech villages where we grow our own food, build our own shelters, sew our own clothes, plan our own families, home school our own children and surround ourselves with miles of healthy wilderness.

I lived in such a village for 8 years and it worked very well as long as the members understood the need to follow Dorothy Day's famous advice to "Live simply that others may simply live." But my brother and sister communitarians were enticed by the mainstream economy to privatize and class divide in their greed for money.

Now that mainstream economy has come full circle in its crazy boom-and-bust syndrome, so once again, it is time to return to the land and live in balance with Nature and in peaceful equality with each other -- humanity's last chance on this living biosphere, our home, planet Earth.

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» RE: All Wealth Comes From the Earth Posted by: pleaseplanttrees
The "Common" Cold
Posted by: CV on Oct 12, 2008 10:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The U.S. sneezes and the world catches cold. As for the "demands" of the baby boomers (comment by one poster), many of us will keep working and keep contributing past retirement age as long as our health holds - some because after 40 or so years of working we still feel a responsibility to avoid becoming a "burden" as long as possible, and for others because the terrible effects of trickle down economics have decimated savings. Generally, few baby boomers grew up with a sense of "entitlement."

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Let's talk GDP
Posted by: westomoon on Oct 12, 2008 10:44 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But, as Pollin pointed out, "The fiscal deficit in 1983 was 6 percent of GDP -- that was under Reagan -- and that pulled the economy out of crisis then. Right now, the fiscal deficit is in the range of 3 percent of GDP. Increasing the deficit to, say 5 to 6 percent of GDP now would inject more than $300 to $400 billion in new spending into the economy --

This is a comforting comparison, but a dangerous one. The GDP of 1983 was that of a manufacturing economy with a healthy balance of trade and a fairly rational debt/financial industry -- a substantial meatloaf of a statistic. The GDP of 2008 is like a debt souffle -- mostly composed of hot air.

GDP is a dangerous measure to plan our current financial policy against, because debt itself counts as part of the GDP. The credit madness of the past decade has not only beggared us as a nation, it has covered its own tracks as it did so by artificially pumping up the GDP.

If I buy a house, my mortgage, when it is issued, counts as part of the GDP. When the issuing bank sells it to a bundler, it counts again. Every time my mortgage is re-bundled and/or resold, its value is added again and again to the GDP. With the speed at which these transactions have been taking place, the value of my mortgage could be added to that year's GDP half a dozen times, and then to the subsequent years' GDPs again, every time it formed part of a remanufactured debt instrument. Same with my credit card debt, or my car loan -- which have also been bundled and resold. Our GDP itself has been as highly leveraged as any hedge fund's holdings.

Obviously, the slowdown in the mad credit market is going to be reflected in the GDP as the bogus "value" added by credit reshuffling vanishes. I also believe a lot of "bottom up" deficit spending will be necessary to get us through this crisis, but we shouldn't be smugly deciding it's okay because of its relationship to our GDP.

An afterthought -- our $5 trillion of debt increase during Bush's tenure has been financed by cash surpluses in the countries that have become our manufacturing sector. Now that we're dragging them into economic implosion along with us, will we even be able to incur more national debt?

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The GOP Great Depression II
Posted by: jimswanson on Oct 12, 2008 12:54 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jim Swanson, Los Altos, CA
www.bushleagueofnations.com [for free downloads of entire book]

Let’s first agree on accurate terminology. It should be called the GOP Great Depression II.

The current financial meltdown is the bitter fruit of more than a quarter century of Reaganomics, which even Bush I called “Voodoo Economics.”

More national debt was added during the eight years of Ronald Reagan’s presidency than during the entire prior 200+ year history of the United States.

During its first 200 years, America incurred most of its debt during troubled times, including World Wars I and II. Yet, on Reagan’s watch of only eight years (1981-89) — a time without major war when no American soldier killed a single Russian soldier or vice versa — our national debt increased by more than 260%, primarily because of reckless tax cuts for the Super Rich, and secondarily because of profligate spending. Yes, Reagan was a big spender — a big spender and a big borrower.

America is not indebted to Reagan — America is in debt because of Reagan. That is Reagan’s biggest legacy. He spawned the wild notion that “deficits don’t matter,” which allowed the GOP since 1981 to loot and bankrupt America.

From the beginning of Reagan’s presidency and continuing through the Bush regime, John McCain’s GOP worked relentlessly to create the Second Gilded Age in America, an era in which government power is used to promote the interests of corporations and the Super Rich at the expense of common men and women.

Give trillions of dollars to the Super Rich and Big Business. Run up multiple enormous unsustainable deficits and debts. Bankrupt America both morally and financially. Plant the seeds for the GOP Great Depression II. Screw generations of the unborn by giving them the GOP Shaft. Take the money and run.

This and much more is discussed in the new progressive book, "The Bush League of Nations: The Coalition of the Unwilling, the Bullied and the Bribed – the GOP’s War on Iraq and America," by James A. Swanson (2008, 448 pages).

As a gift to patriots everywhere, the entire book can be downloaded for free at www.bushleagueofnations.com. Please pass along the good news!

James Swanson, Los Altos, CA

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RE: Free Booze And Prozac Needed
Posted by: sirios on Oct 12, 2008 1:11 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
HYSTERICALLY FUNNY, MUCH NEEDED!

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ABYSMALLY DEEP!
Posted by: sirios on Oct 12, 2008 1:08 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How deep and far will this problem travel, as far and as necessary to achieve the the seemingly necessary level of suffering that finally dissolves the fear that is holding the collective thinking and mood in its present state of stagnation and apathy. As the American sage Bob Dylan so aptly put it, "When you aint got nothin you got nothin to lose", hence no fear, which frees up the mind and emotions to take a new direction. Hopefully some wisdom will be revealed from the transition , and future actions will be based in compassion not greed. Hope is the operative word here, because that is all that remains.

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WHAT THE DEPRESSION COULD LOOK LIKE- GREAT DEPRESSION PART II-- NIGHTMARE
Posted by: stopthemaddness2 on Oct 12, 2008 1:29 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I went back to the history books on what things were like at the beginning of 1929 the Crash that began the Great Depression 1929- 1933.

6,000 Banks Closed their doors-disappeared
9 million lost their savings accounts- vanished

85,000 Businesses just folded and collasped
2,600 Schools shut down
13 million folks were unemployed, wandering the streets looking for food, shelter, making makeshift shanties and houses out of anything they could find
Some became migrant workers
400,000 farmers lost their farms and they were repossessed by the government
Mental Institution admissions went up 300%
Suicides went up 50% nationally
Cities were harder hit than rural areas

Currently more than 700,000 jobs have been lost
I just read that schools are beginning to cut staff and programs and after-school programs
Foreclosure estimates are conservatively placed at more than 5.9 million homes.
Many BabyBoomers have been wiped out 401K's GONE!
Tent Cities have started spring up in major cities in California Nevada Washington State - and folks are living in their cars in parking lots allocated as alternative homeless shelters but mainstream media does not talk about them much, the EXIST!! THEY ARE GROWING!
Global markets are now affected- meeting G7- Very Serious Indication things are gravely WRONG!
Every talk show, has stopped talking about cute, designer, travel, he's-she's-cheating-on-me-toxic-relationship- stuff, instead they talk about COUPONS, 401K, where to put your money, how to shop cheap, how to tighten your belt, pawn shop items and businesses, how to live on less, economy, economy!
The beginning of a Great Depression is already here. It is not a deep Recession... which just means the same and equals a beginning DEPRESSION.
Here's the nightmare: In 1929 the same talk was being spouted diminishing the fact that we would crash and decline. They were saying they had plans to handle things, contain the situation. Same rhetoric.
Now, nightmare: The world population has quadrupled in size. Can you imagine how many folks that would mean living in shanty towns, roaming the streets with no money, no food, no, the sick, the old, the children, the crime, teh hospitals, shelter in the inner cities? And the biggest nightmare-- this could be GLOBAL THIS TIME!!! GOD HELP US ALL

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Hate to break it to you, but . . .
Posted by: 6399 on Oct 12, 2008 1:46 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are nearing the bottom of this mess, if we're not already there. It may only be a temporary respite (2-4 yrs.) from the carnage we've been witnessing over the last week, but we have indeed bottomed out.

"As the financial crisis gains steam, moving from overextended American households to global banking giants, fear of a major crash is spreading."

The financial crisis is not gaining steam - it's losing momentum. We should be talking about recovery and bargain hunting for the everyday American people who were nearly wiped out in this implosion. I'm sure Alterneters worship the philanthropic ground that Buffet walks on, but in reality, he's an asshole and shouldn't be the only one taking advantage of the great deals out there.

We are quite obviously headed for hyperinflation and US$ destruction but that is still a couple of years down the road. Our fearless financial wizards have a few more tricks up their sleeves before bailing out on the US altogether and flying off to Fiji with Swiss franc or Japanese yen-laden suitcases

I can recall reminding readers almost 3 years ago that an economic event like the one we're currently witnessing was what Alternet should have been focusing on. You should have known that an economic meltdown posed the biggest risk to this nation, and indeed, to a world that would be brought down with neoliberal policies. Lots of keystrokes expended on divisive gender issues, religion, abortion, etc.

This piecemeal response is all that is needed to convince the idiots in this country that all is well and good and that they should begin dipping their toes in the water. Before you know it, they'll be diving back in head first. Did we learn anything from the 70s? How about the 80s or late 90s? We are a mildly retarded nation of shallow dickheads and losers who will be shopping 'til we drop in no time flat. Mark my words. We may even have a decent Xmas shopping season.

If the people of this second-rate nation really had their wits about them, they would question where a country that will likely see a $2 trillion budget deficit by the end of the year is getting this money? Our national debt will soon be over 90% of our GDP. Does anyone think the Asians and Arabs are down for another round of "hide the writedowns"? With domestic consumers teetering on the brink of destruction, it will be hard to imagine any other way than *sound of printing presses whirring* making money out of thin air.

This whole thing has been an enormous scam and Uncle Sam and the big money boys have you exactly where they want you: terrified and on the sidelines while they drive the market down to new lows. Once they think we've sold off all our large cap stocks and our 401Ks are toast, you're going to see the mother of all bear rallies. The big boys, including Asians and Arabs (this is what they have been waiting for and were promised as atonement) will swoop in and buy up so much American stock that we will become a dependency of China.

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» RE: Hate to break it to you, but . . . Posted by: stopthemaddness2
» See Below! Posted by: 6399
Market up 450 tomorrow . . .
Posted by: 6399 on Oct 12, 2008 2:04 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
With the announcement of some bullshit preferred stock buy up/hyperinjection of cash into the banks which Paulson feels are salvageworthy, i.e. where his cronies now reside.

It's not that market fundamentals are being corrected. On the contrary, they are a steaming pile of shit, but the American idiots will take this as an "all clear" sign and beging jumping back in. Don't be the last one to cash in. We are at bottom and now is the time to buy undervalued corporations with big market caps, positive cash flow, little debt and a greatly diminshed P/E ratio.

The big boys are going to be swarming in over the next 2-3 days - don't let them run up the Dow express without you on board.

My recommendations:
Cia Vale do Rio Doce - largest iron ore producer in the world: $12/share

Petrobras - mammoth oil producer and leading deep sea driller - $26/share

Australian dollars - was at parity; now $1.55 to $1. Aussie dollar will recoup losses with a vengeance.

Brazilian Reais - was at US$1 - R1.54; now almost US$1 to R2.40.

The US dollar is toast long term - bet against it and win big!!

IF you truly feel like gambling, pick up some penny stocks like GM, Ford and Chrysler. A GM merger with Chrysler will make you some money in the short term. Another round of bailouts will also boost shares by a few bucks. Hey, it's a quick way to double your money.

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Proof that Americans are dummer than a sack of door knobs?
Posted by: douglashoyt on Oct 12, 2008 2:27 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
On November 4th, Americans will elect either Mr. Obama or Mr. McCain.

Both are business corporate candidates. Neither is "Change you can believe in."

Have a nice day.

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An upbeat note on creative destruction and green sustainable rebirth
Posted by: JPHickey on Oct 12, 2008 4:34 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I really enjoy reading all the thought-provoking posts here. In this case, the readers contributors exceed that of the authors.

Some of us have seen this “meltdown” coming for years, so this is a fascinating time to attempt to keep tabs on the magnificent unraveling and unprecedented period of creative destruction. I guess my biggest problem is that I’m 66 and not at all well-fixed.

Apparently none of the “authorities” can see the forest for the trees, especially since the media filters out much of what the actual people have to say. I guess that’s understandable considering our fascist form of operations.

I’ve been a transformationalist for years, so it’s nobody would be surprised that I interpret what’s happening with the world economy now as a crash of the addictive mindset. Greed represents a state teetering on the boardline of sociopathology. When a marginal mental condition is so prevalent in a society, especially boardline fascist society, it is easy to consider it to be normal and a sign of being well-adjusted. Of course, people like me have long been wondering “well-adjusted to what?”

Since the end of the “golden age” of economic expansion between the end of WW2 and sometime just before the beginning of the neocon revolution of trickle-down economics. By that time, industrial productivity exceeded the populations ability to consume. Capitalism has reached a ceiling world-wide that couldn’t be broken through. (Just a thought).

The neocon elites have tried everything they can think up to break through this, as long as they were the primary beneficiaries. Finally, they completely lost touch with reality and have been busy behind the scenes with unbelievable “free-market” speculations.

This hardly dealt with problem of productivity exceeding consumption, though pseudo-credit caused unsustainable balloons which have irreparably crashed in the perfect economic storm.

Some of us can see through all the fog and mirrors to the only solid approach to the to transform the whole enchilada from unsustainable materialistic productivity through a paradigm shift away from greed and into sustainable living, aka, going genuinely green.

I’ve really been wanting to focus my thinking to write a note to join my AlterNet brothers and sisters, so I did a search of my own files and found about 5,000 articles in my own hard-drive collections.

One of my favorites is from AlterNet “Facing the limits of growth” By Donella H. Meadows, http://www.alternet.org/story/18978/ Another is “New Views in the Workplace” written over a decade ago, Russell E. DiCarlo. I don’t have the url but you can check out http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/CommunitySupport/NCC/wwworgch.html or contact me and I’ll send you a copy of my Acrobat version – phickeyatesedona.net

Rather than trying to get a grip on how or why the old economic system is imploding, I prefer to dedicate myself to some sort of rebirth, Green New Deal, that lies on the other side of this period of creative destruction. I can’t get into it here, but I made the paradigm shift decades ago, and now I see that the world is suddenly catching up with me (one way or another).

Pardon me for being so long-winded, but I just had to come up with my “big-picture” take on this unprecedented time of creative destruction and shift from gross productivity to green sustainability and a higher form of “quality of life”.

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» Quality of Life Posted by: Cathyc
A New Direction for America and the World!
Posted by: thinkverybig on Oct 12, 2008 5:30 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is my goal to get in touch with someone from the Obama campaign and share with them my desire to be a part of his inauguration by reciting a poem I wrote called “We Must Change,” and I kindly ask for your help in doing so.
Go to youtube and do a search for "thinkverybig" and watch all of those videos. The one called "We Must Change" would be fitting to recite at Obama's Inauguration
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM58nqX1ehE

Here are the words! http://www.thinkverybig.com/We%20Must%20Change.htm


"I Don't Understand" video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN_pGy_1bEg

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» And You Are? Posted by: edgar1
La Rouche has been warning of financial fraud for ages-
Posted by: avatar_singh on Oct 12, 2008 7:27 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just because he rightly recognized the english race as the perfect exapmle of evil-does not neagte his findings that england is the main problem in the world.and needs to be nneutralised soon.

http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008/10/12/



Why The Economists Failed: Economy & Creativity
Increase Decrease

Why The Economists Failed:

Economy & Creativity

by Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr.

October 10, 2008


"We live, at this moment, in a world which, at this brief instant of its history, had been presently dominated by the approach of the ominous fiscal date of October 10. This already sick world's present financial system, has entered the threatened death-agonies of that present global system of Las Vegas-style gambling, called financial derivatives. The holders of financial derivatives HAVE gambled on the virtual race-track called financial speculation, and have lost, and should not be paid off for that. Cancel their worthless "play money" claims; get on, so unhindered, with the business of the physically real economy of the world. Let the actual people of this planet live, whether Britain's Prince Charles and his batty World Wildlife Fund concur, or not."

And more--
"Indeed, in the history of the United States, as, still today, the principal English-speaking adversary of the inherently wicked, global, imperialist British system, there is embedded in the founding of our republic, an essential, continuing cultural factor in world history, the factor of our U.S.A. as, at its root, the most efficient opponent of that imperial, Anglo-Dutch Liberal, financier-oligarchical system, the continuing, presently world-hegemonic British financier-oligarchical Empire of 1763-2008. We represent, thus, a U.S.A. for whose continuing role there is still no cultural substitute in history thus far. Without our revival of this factor, this legacy of our United States, it would be impossible to establish the needed, workable, global agreement among nations without which a presently immediate plunge into a prolonged, global "new dark age" could not be avoided now."

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Our Prime Minister George Brown Is Not Only a Hero But A Genius
Posted by: opmoc on Oct 12, 2008 8:14 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Solution has already been implemented

Wake Up For Fucks Sake

Tony

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parrotuya
Posted by: parrotuya on Oct 12, 2008 9:14 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
DOWn, baby, DOWn!

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SORT AND DESTROY THE PARASITE CLASS AS REPRESTATED BY THE ENGLISH RACE AND THEIR DESPICABLE BROODS.
Posted by: avatar_singh on Oct 13, 2008 7:00 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As America teetered on the brink of entering World War II, Charles A. Lindbergh gave a fateful speech that did more damage to the America First movement for peace than all the propagandistic efforts of the pro-war groups he named in Des Moines that day. In his oration, the great aviator and American hero sought to define who and what had brought us to the point of no return:

"The three most important groups who have been pressing this country toward war are the British, the Jewish, and the Roosevelt administration.

"Behind these groups, but of lesser importance, are a number of capitalists, Anglophiles, and intellectuals who believe that the future of mankind depends upon the domination of the British empire. Add to these the Communistic groups who were opposed to intervention until a few weeks ago, and I believe I have named the major war agitators in this country."


"The First World War was by far the bloodiest conflict in human history up to that time. Schwartz and Skinner noted, “Woodrow Wilson proclaimed a war for democracy against ‘Prussian dictatorship,’ but that was propaganda. Germany had civil rights, an elected parliament, competing parties, universal male suffrage, and an unparalleled system of social democracy.” Germany was far more democratic than either the British or French empire."


6th march,2007.

BBC comment(atleast her washingtons correspondent's comments) on scooter LibBy's gulity verdit on 6th march,2007--"it does not matter to white house as long as iraq war turns out to be all right"!! for BBc illegal occupation of iraq and killing of million civilians does not matter -it will be al r ight for american occupation. This is human rights and democracy ala BBc and british propaganda.
see and watch todays bbc and realize how much bbc and other british propaganda machinary is responsible for bush war crimes.
He also assuredly told that this "white house is quite safe"as wished for by the british ofocurse. during gore-bush florida tussle bbc was advocating gore to leave bush alone as britian was waiting for american missile defence to come her shore soon and so no delay in small matter of who should be presidentof usa be allowed.d-bit belicve it? look at all british propaganda between 1st novembr till 20th novembr of 2000.
it is high time that engish spies in american establishment be eliminated..

it is high time that these english spies in usa are taken care of .

also during and after the gulf war(first iraq war) the british were taking full creidit for insitagating bush 1 to start and persue war agasint iraq. the reason war criminal blair diidnto take full creidt for iraq war 2 was because that went sour(failure has no fathers claming thiers). itis a fact that merciless war done by america has benen perpetauted by the british agents inside america( and not some indepdnet israli agents as claimed-it jsut so happend that only know israli interest happend to coinside with those of english parasites -that is why war on and for behalf of england is being waged by america the world over.
By the way in IN '88 when Dalai lama, at the height of Tibetan disturbances, visited west, the then british prime minister refused to meet Him. Later on with the demise of Russia and usefulness of China gone and with manipulation to keep power in Hong Kong somehow intact, the same british media and government ,like dog, started barking at China. It is interesting that amnesty international selectively targets those very countries( as it did china after cold war) who are out of favour (because they would not be a british stooge) of the british media and govt.

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