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Readers Write: Christian Ex-Gays Try to 'Cure' Homosexuality

By Alex Jung, AlterNet. Posted December 19, 2007.


AlterNet readers weigh in on "sexual reorientation therapy."
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The bruising battles between right-wing Christians and gay rights groups have moved from the ballot box where 11 states banned same-sex marriage to the living room and the Church itself. Casey Sanchez's article "Christian Ex-Gays Brainwash Thousands" documents the burgeoning "sexual reorientation therapy" movement. There are three treatment centers, but over 200 churches, religious colleges and religious counseling centers have "ex-gay" programs. Major right-wing Christian organizations like Focus on the Family now have a traveling ex-gay ministry called "Love Won Out."

Despite well-funded megachurches and fundamentalist Christians dominating religious discourse, the question many of our readers asked about ex-gay conversion programs was: Is this what Jesus would do? What followed was a familiar discussion of nature versus nurture, whether human sexuality is a choice and whether or not queer identity can ever be compatible with Christianity.

One poster, slydad, weighed in on a number of these questions with a position that might best be characterized as compassionate conservative:

"There's no doubt that some people have a strong physical attraction to others of the same gender. That part of it may not be a choice. If one endeavors to live as a Christian though, we should have genuine love for everyone ... the choice is there as to whether one takes a mate that is of the same sex or the opposite sex. If one puts God first, nature will work like it's supposed to and God will steer you toward the right person. I know that sort of sounds like I'm advocating that if you're a homo that you stay in the proverbial "closet." I'm not saying that at all. I think that one can have homosexual urges and still love someone of the opposite sex. If a relationship is built on a Christian foundation, it will work. In an open and honest relationship, there are work arounds for deviances like that.

"I think that folks that choose the homosexual lifestyle are putting sex first and God second. That doesn't mean that they're lost either. It just isn't the way it ought to be."

But other readers critiqued the supposedly obvious "naturalness" of compulsory heterosexuality. Lilykins argued: "Homosexuality exists in almost every animal species on the planet. It would be UNnatural if it didn't exist in humans." Reader jvaljon1 agreed, "It's a well known FACT ... that homosexuality is an innate variation on sexuality, in all species that utilize bi-sexual reproduction ... This is a fact--read about wolves and geese, to name just two disparate species in which the same 11% are homosexual."

MindyB quotes the president of Exodus saying, "Everyday I wake up and deny what comes naturally to me." She responds, "Duh!! One cannot be 'cured' of a 'disease' if one still struggles with 'homosexual sexuality' ... Also, if his homosexuality 'comes naturally,' isn't that the same as being born with 'it,' or more specifically this is how God created you, gay (or homosexual if you rather use that term), and therefore, you must accept yourself the way God created you -- gay!"

Reader jmmartin explained the motives of sexual reorientation centers as "motivated not by some altruistic desire to 'help' anyone but to add numbers to their agenda. By convincing the world that 'gay' is something you do rather than something you are, stigmatization of gays might appear understandable and even proper."

Other readers weighed in on whether homosexuality could be consistent with a religious institution. UnEasyOne described "Cafeteria Christians" who "simply ignore the parts of the Bible they find inconvenient ... My feeling is that in order to be happy, homosexuals are gonna have to realize that this tradition has nothing to do with modern times -- and if they still feel a need for a god in their lives, recognize that YHWH (Yahweh or Jehovah) ain't their guy."


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See more stories tagged with: gay, ex-gay, homosexuality, sexuality, sexual orientation therap, christians, christianity

Alex Jung is an editorial fellow at AlterNet.

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Lets B Fair
Posted by: Hodger_99 on Dec 19, 2007 12:27 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why don't we try to turn Christians gay?

funny how it costs soooo much money- if these Morons truly believe in doing Christs work- it would be fricken free???

they're trying to get cash- bottom line- they could care less who you have sex with-

just trying to convince people (who shouldn't listen to them to begin with) that they are 'lost' or 'strange' because their not crazy loons that put too much trust in make-believe beings- or put their blind trust in invisible friends- WTF!!!!

throw them all to the lions- the lot of them!

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What a load of garbage.
Posted by: cordas on Dec 19, 2007 2:19 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why did god create gays? Or gay tendancies in some people but not others?

I really really hate this "Christian" attitude that god wants to / feel the need to / is such a complete b*rd, that (s)he "lovingly" puts such burdens on some people but not others.

I myself was partialy crippled by a disease I caught when I was 18months old, the number of times I have had sanctimonius christians telling me that god wouldn't give me a burden I couldn't carry is to numerous for me to keep track of. I always respond to these fortunate healthy people... Why didn't god decide to test you... you are smug enough to enjoy it! Why did god decide to give an 18month old baby a life of pain, suffering, opperations and all the restrictions that those have entailed and not you.

The whole god made some people gay to test their faith is such a flawed concept that only someone with limited intellect could even consider it. Either god is all powerfull and all loving as they say (in which case why the cruel and unusual punishments/tests), or (s)he isn't and therefore not the god they say (s)he is.

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» Healing is a good thing Posted by: PaulK
» RE: What a load of garbage. Posted by: willymack
» RE: What a load of garbage. Posted by: onecanadianbacon
» RE: What a load of garbage. Posted by: cordas
One more time
Posted by: walldodger1969 on Dec 19, 2007 4:02 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
THERE IS NO F$@KIN GOD, NO CHRISTIAN GOD NO MUSLIM GOD NO SANTA CLAUS NO EASTER BUNNY NO THOR NO LONE RANGER SAVING CATTLEMEN FROM THE INJUNS..I AM SO SICK OF THE DEBATES ABOUT A FIGMENT OF OUR IMAGINATION STARTED BY OUR ANCESTORS 5000 FRIGGIN YEARS AGO. CAN WE ALL COME INTO THE PRESENT AND FIGURE OUT HOW WE ARE GOING TO SAVE THIS WORLD FOR OUR GRANDKIDS.

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» RE: One more time Posted by: Lauren
» RE: One more time Posted by: theshadowknows
» But ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Flying Spaghetti Monster Posted by: paulaH
IDOECON
Posted by: ehensley on Dec 19, 2007 4:45 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I teach at a small private college in southeastern Kentucky. To fully understand the brutality of this movememnt, you need to hear about my advisee. He is gay. Has always been gay. Will always be gay. He thought once in college he could come out. He tried. He was almost killed. He consented to go to some of these Christian re-orienting things and pretended to be "cured." Now, he denies his orientation and lives in constant fear in our dorms. Same for my gay and lesbian colleagues at the college.

So much for Higher education. We need to learn how to accumulate a critical mass of support for our fellow human beings and then try to protect them from the rest.

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» RE: IDOECON Posted by: Lauren
» UGH! Posted by: doodledoo
Gay is good--and natural
Posted by: arthur_ide on Dec 19, 2007 5:22 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Homosexuality exists in all living mammals: lions, zebras, camels, rams, and everything else. It is natural (or it would not exist). The insensitivity of religious fundamentalists comes with their inability to understand basic bible. The sin of Sodom was Lot's offer of his daughters to the people of Sodom in exchange for their not quizzing (knowing--not sex) the messengers (angels) that came to know who the strangers were. Lot's sin was incest with his two daughters in the mountain. The Leviticus injunction states that "a man shall not lie down with another man AS IF he were a woman"--there is no prohibition against lesbianism, and I know of no man who has sex with another man thinking that the man is a woman. As for Paul's line in Romans: that is a later day invention, for none of the New Testament was written during or immediately after the death of Jesus--the earliest tract coming nearly 33 years (an entire generation) later. Then, too, most of the contemporary bible did not come into existence until after the Council of Nicea in the fourth century--and then as a result of political manueverings and the hand of the emperor Constantine. There are many gospel that did not make it into the official canon--and none of them, nor the official four condemns homosexuality. What is strange is that Jesus did not marry--which was considered an abomination by law and custom for any male over the age of 16; yet Jesus lived with 12 men (minimum) and he never said a word about homosexuality--including the night he spent with the naked man in the Garden.

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» RE: Gay is good--and natural Posted by: sunlakedude
» RE: Or is God all what Is? Posted by: gazooks
Bah! Humbug!
Posted by: leland61 on Dec 19, 2007 5:49 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Being a bigot is a choice. Being homosexual is a given - however it happens - just like being heterosexual is a given - however it happens.

And please, you right wingnuts, stop calling yourselves Christian. You are not Christian at all, in my book and in Jesus' teachings you are not. When did Jesus ever ask if someone was heterosexual - and just in case you're too ignorant to understand this - there was a lot of same sex sex going on and a good many relationships among same sex partners in Jesus' day and while he was a Jewish peasant, he lived only a few miles from a non-Jewish city where he may have picked up a job now and then.

He healed the boy-toy of a Centurion - Matt. 8:5. Of course the translations usually betray that relationship. Jesus had little to say about sex and a lot to say about love, forgiveness and justice. Too bad the self-styled fundies and evangelicals are so confused about what Jesus did teach.

OH! Yes! As a matter of fact there is not a single person who does not treat the Bible as a cafeteria table - none - not even ultra Orthodox Jews. As for Christians, especially the right wing nutters - they are the most amazing hypocrites when it comes to selectively straining out the gnats and swallowing the camels.

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It's the belief that's wrong
Posted by: whyoung on Dec 19, 2007 7:20 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can't worship anything that offers redemption from its own invention.

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Stop, please
Posted by: andrushka on Dec 19, 2007 7:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
putting God in everything. Leave him alone. There would be far less damage in this world without "well" intentioned people spreading the "good-word". Just look what Mr. Bush (you know him ???) has wrought in Irak? Isnt that enough? and those "missionaries". Leave people alone, be they gay, heterosexual, yellow or polka-dot.

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I always thought Jesus was cute in his pictures at church
Posted by: defrag on Dec 19, 2007 9:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've always wanted to meet a cute Jewish guy with long hair and a beard!

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» aw, don't ruin the fantasy! Posted by: defrag
What is the big deal!
Posted by: dkm on Dec 19, 2007 10:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hearing from the Christianists, one would believe that they are solely guided by the Bible as to their aversion to gays and their need to set gays "straight." One of them even went so far as to chastise the gays for just accepting the parts of the Bible that they found convenient and ignoring the parts that they didn't like. For a Christianist to make this charge against ANYONE just staggers me. If there were ever a group guilty of picking and choosing which parts of the Bible they want to observe and rejecting the rest, it is the Christianists.

Having said that, one wonders what the real reason is that these people feel such odium towards gays. It is obvious beyond any doubt that they are using the Bible to justify what otherwise would be plain, obvious bigotry. When you listen to them rant and rave, you can almost feel the spittle spewing from their mouths. As with abortions, if you don't like it, then don't do it, but stay out of other people's lives. While I don't have figures on abortions among Christianists, I do know that Catholics have the highest abortion rate among the three major religions in the US and that the Christianists have by far a higher divorce rate than nonChristianists.

Also, for the person who says that Christians as a group are major contributors to charity, the Moslems have you beaten by a long shot. You aren't even in the game with them.

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» A Slight Correction Posted by: SatanicJamboree
Slydad's ignorance
Posted by: theodyke on Dec 19, 2007 10:38 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Slydad" says some of the most idiotic and ignorant things I think I have read in a long time.

As a happy lesbian, who also happens to be a Christian, I can safely say that I, first and foremost did not choose my sexual orientation. I can also safely say that I did not put sex first and God second. I fell in love with my partner because of who she is, not because of sex. If we were to never have sex again I'd still be crazy in love with her and stay with her the rest of my life.

Why are straight people so obsessed with the idea of gays and lesbians having sex? Why do they insist on defining us by our sexual lives? I connect with a woman on more levels than just sexual. My partner completes me in many, many ways - not just sexually. Those, like slydad, who insist that I can make a heterosexual relationship work if I just put God first are laughably naive about relationships in general, and gay and lesbian relationships in particular.

There is more to any intimate relationship than sex and it's so sad that I have to point that out to an obviously morally superior heterosexual like slydad.

My love for my partner is based on deeper things than sex. I feel sorry for slydad if that's his most important criteria for relationships.

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» RE: Slydad's ignorance Posted by: angie70
Christian, gay and struggling with it?
Posted by: hurricane hugo on Dec 19, 2007 11:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Fuck a "cure"; invest your money in martial arts classes instead.

plur

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What this boils down to is freedom of religion and seperation of church & state...
Posted by: thaumaturgistguy on Dec 19, 2007 11:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The fact that this even needs to be so hotly debated really shines a light on how much our freedoms in this country are tenuous at best.

The agenda against sexual deviation of any kind, but most especially non straight folks, is entirely a religous one. Many people think being gay is "wrong" or "unnatural" and base that belief on their religous doctrine. You know what? That's fine. They are allowed to think that. What they are NOT allowed to do though is to deny other citizens of this country their rights and freedoms as Americans (and as human beings) based on their own personal religous beliefs.

That there are people in the government actively trying to deny rights to other Americans and openly site their religion as the source of that political motivation is clearly a violation of the seperation of church and state and the freedom of religion in this country.

As far as the whole Ex-Gay industry goes I say as long as they are not subjecting minors to that kind of mental abuse then let them do what they will. If an adult wants to inflict that kind of reprogramming on himself/herself because of their religion, then by all means please let them be masochists, but they must leave the rest of us who don't beleive as they do out of it and understand that not only is ok that we do not beleive as they do, but as Americans it is their duty to fight for our right to disagree with them.

The arguments over whether being gay is right or wrong, natural or unnatural, abhorent or acceptable are irrelevant. Nature or nurture it is what they are and if they are happy with what they are and don't want to change, well by gum they are well within their rights to be themselves and not be interferred with by the government or individuals of any relgious persuasion.

Religion...now THERE'S a choice.

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Ex Greedheads
Posted by: ChasPatt on Dec 19, 2007 12:28 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This may seem out of context but it isn't, really. If the Christians are so concerned about what they consider psychological problems like homosexuality then how about forming some groups to battle pathological greed? WE could even call it "Ex-Greedheads". This country and even the world is suffering far more from this group than all that the gays could ever do even if they wanted to be disruptive (and all they want, really, is to be themselves). The pathologically greedy are a small group of people who, if they had other similar problems, would be institutionalized or at least encouraged to get help. No one needs the vast amounts of money or power they have and yet they always want more, more, more. They are willing to destroy lives, businesses, whole countries even to get this endless MORE. They are willing to kill. People who die in their sweatshops, are poisoned by their products and the water they pollute, cough their lungs out in polluted air, and will die in the climate changes they deny, are by definition murdered, and murdered in the first degree since these murders were planned....all to get that little bit MORE. If they were alcoholics, drug users, pedophiles, or serial killers, they would be condemned and/or jailed. They are, however, not condemned but even looked up to in this twisted society in which we live. If the Christians really wanted to help this society they would try to end THIS scourge. It would be hard though. Much of their money comes from these people (It is investment, of course. They expect a return), and many of their own leaders have the condition(does a man of "God" really need his own private jet?). It seems to me that there are better things to do with the power the Christians wield than attack people who's only crime is that their normal is not the "normal" of the ones whow condemn it. I'm only saying....

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Most people don't remember it now
Posted by: UnEasyOne on Dec 19, 2007 12:35 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But damned near everything sexual used to be illegal.

"Fornication" was illegal. Contraception was illegal - that's why you still see the warning "Sold for the prevention of disease ONLY" on condom machines. "Unnatural acts" even within marriage were illegal.

A man named Donn Caldwell got 30 years in prison for having consensual anal sex with his wife! And this wasn't in Podunk Mississippi in the 1800s, it was in Illinois in the seventies! Took Playboy over 7 years to get him out of jail.

The prudes have lost every battle - homosexuality is their "last frontier." The real agenda is theocracy and control of us all.

As a straight man in those days, I happily violated the law every chance I got - but I knew that I was relatively safe - prosecutions of heterosexuals were rare.

Now, except for prostitutes, most are completely safe from prosecution - but don't count on that lasting. The armies of the righteous hypocrites are still on the march and as long as they can find a despised group to target, none of us are safe.

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I don't mind hetero Christians...
Posted by: MThomson on Dec 19, 2007 3:21 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't mind hetero Christians -- as long as they ACT like gay atheists. Kidding. Look, their problem is with SEX of any kind; they violently resent having to think about it (e.g. Clinton and Monica Lewinski) and they hate women. So a man POSSIBLY fulfilling the woman's "inferior" position in sex makes them apoplectic with rage.

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It's All About Power Over Other People
Posted by: bcgirl125 on Dec 19, 2007 3:57 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you can get folks to hand over control of their sexuality to you, you've really got them by the short hairs, literally. That's why so-called "Christian" authorities concentrate so much on sex, as opposed to the more plentiful taboos on food also found in the Bible. It's the most intimate feature of human life, and if they can worm their way in there, there's no stopping them.

The best thing to do for gay people (and everyone else, too) would be to leave churches that disempower them, and seek enlightenment either by themselves or in a more spiritually advanced community. Remember, the only power bigoted clergy have over you is the power you GIVE them.

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Animal Homosexuality & Natural Diversity
Posted by: txbodhi on Dec 19, 2007 8:53 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The biologist Bruce Bagemihl wrote the book Biological Exuberance documenting homosexuality/bisexuality in various specific mammals and birds. It is almost universal in social birds and mammals. It helps the survival of the group for there to be attraction between members of the same sex. Biological evolution fits well with the spiritual evolution taught by Buddha that we are a mental process that goes through many lifetimes until we realize Timeless Unity (the Inner Unified Field Theory). Being gay or lesbian can help us to develop compassion. Don't go to some fundamentalist anti-gay brain washing but get into meditation and find your own inner peace.

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Natural Fallacy
Posted by: onecanadianbacon on Dec 20, 2007 12:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This wasnt brought up in the story, but this is an important (i think) thing to consider. The idea that nature is good is known as the "natural fallacy." This is the idea that nature is not necessarily all good. For example, medicine--that's a good thing, and not necessarily natural. I'm sure we could sit here and generate lists of what's natural and bad, and what's unnatural and good.

anyway, as this relates to Christianity: to say that homosexuality is bad because it is unnatural 1) is an argument that is defeated by the natural fallacy 2) is not necessarily true (as people in the story wrote that homosexuality and bi-sexuality and a bunch of other forms of sexuality all exist in other animal species).

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Examples in context
Posted by: talkville on Dec 20, 2007 2:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just as in the case of interrogations and torture currently going, this is but another example of the thoroughly un-ethical, selective, and truly fascist utilization of the Psychiatric and Psychological and medical fields to control human behavior. This is just another example of pseudo-science in the service of power. Stay tuned, it's only just begun, and it will be extended to other "life-styles" deemed 'inappropriate' or non-conformist by these Guardians of the Realm.

Not to forget that especially in this Pragmatic country of ours, Science's main purpose is APPLICATION - and sometimes for purposes not exactly beneficial to human development. If one can send dogs to Obedience School for training, well why not humans too? say these self-appointed patriarchs and would-be kings and gentry. It's a Practical thing for fascists to Shape and Form society and culture to their own barbaric and brutal Aesthetic. If you don't Fit, you will be cast out and marginalized thus neutralized, or you will be re-Formed by "training". Bank on it.

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www.Watchtower.org
Posted by: chomsky on Dec 20, 2007 5:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you would like more REAL info about Jehovah's Witnesses on the web be sure to check out www.Watchtower.org linked text

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Something Vaguely Important No One Said...
Posted by: kanekoa64 on Dec 20, 2007 11:02 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For all you freaks who somehow got it in your head that your the moral compass for the our country and the world: IT'S NONE OF YOUR DAMN BUSINESS!!! If I want to run around with a fright wig, big shoes and a rubber nose (or mayhaps, join the clergy...) and entertain your kids, you have less to say than if I ignore you completely and date someone who's the same gender as I am. Who told you Gays are broken? God? I don't think so. He made them, too. Thats right! God made homosexuals along with heterosexuals. In many different species, no less. He also made stupid animals and smart animals. The only thing God did not make is Christian dogs, cats, rats, giraffes, rhinos... well, you get the picture. Evidently, they got left out, thank God for them.
If the motivations for hetero or homosexual love are good or not ("good" can have many definitions, folks...) the intention is love, or not, you have no say in anyones business but your own. The end. You have no say save for what you do in your own house. You can find that in the Bible, I'm sure. Have you ever noticed no one tells you how to worship until you poke your nose in someone's life and begin making edicts? You are doing evil in the name of your God by attempting to restrict the activities of people who don't feel or see things the same as you. Live your own life, for Chrissakes! Follow the words in that book you feel is so holy, you know... the Bible, the Koran, Iching... whichever it is. You aren't getting it. You got it upside down, or something. More likely, the problem was in your head before you picked the book up.

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