COMMENTS: 38
The Christian Right Picks California for Culture War Election Showdown
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Robin Tyler and Diane Olson spent every Valentine's Day since 2001 at a courthouse in Beverly Hills seeking a marriage license in recognition of their years of commitment to each other.
Every year, they were turned down by the same clerk, until finally, on June 16, the state official handed them a California marriage license, which now reads "spouse and spouse" instead of "husband and wife."
Their wedding ceremony, which was performed by a rabbi outside that same courthouse, included 65 invitees, as well as more than 100 reporters and photographers from all over the world who wanted to document the historic moment.
Tyler and Olson became the first lesbian or gay couple to marry, after spending more than 15 years pioneering the fight for marriage equality. The two were plaintiffs in the California Supreme Court case, Tyler v. County of L.A., which was just decided in mid-May. For the first time, a court extended the institution of marriage to lesbian and gay couples.
"It is marriage equality," Tyler said. "They didn't invent a new certificate of marriage. They extended the current definition of marriage to include us."
Tyler and Olson finally had their wedding day. Their union drew worldwide media coverage, but the day wasn't free from the hostility of Religious Right demonstrators.
"They were yelling that we were going to hell," Tyler said "At a Jewish wedding! They think they have a cornerstone on what is moral. They are not our definition of morality."
Those demonstrators were an early skirmish in a new war Tyler and Olson now have to fight in California. The couple has won their fundamental right to marry from the highest court in the state, yet they will have to battle to keep it, thanks to Religious Right groups pushing Proposition 8, an initiative that will appear on California's November ballot.
Proposition 8 would amend California's constitution to prohibit same-sex marriage by defining marriage as only between a man and a woman. If passed, the amendment would alter the state's constitution so the recent California Supreme Court decision would no longer be applicable.
Tyler and Olson have been hopeful that their marriage would show Californians that "we haven't fallen into the Pacific Ocean or the world hasn't ended because we have married each other," and stop reasonable people from voting for Proposition 8.
"Surely, once the public saw the joy on the faces of all of the same-sex couples getting married in California, and saw that nothing was going to be taken away from their own marriages, they would not vote for a mean-spirited constitutional amendment that protected nothing except the right to discriminate," Tyler wishfully wrote in a blog for the Huffington Post soon after the Supreme Court's decision came down.
To some degree, Tyler has been right -- seeing her and Olson's happiness has changed the viewpoint of many Californians. Prior to the Supreme Court decision, polls showed that 51 percent of people in California were against same-sex marriages, but a CBS poll, taken the day following the court's decision, showed that 57 percent of Californians are pro-marriage equality.
Yet Religious Right groups do see losing Proposition 8 as the end of the world -- the "Armageddon of the culture war," as Religious Right leader Charles Colson said, quoting a Princeton professor during a conference call with pastors who were strategizing to pass Proposition 8. Conservative Christian forces think the Bible mandates marriage as between a man and a woman, and they want governmental policy to reflect that doctrinal position.
"This is where if we lose, it would be very hard to turn the ship right again," said Colson, according to a report in Charisma, a leading Pentecostal magazine. "If we win, we might start rolling back the other side. This is a major, major struggle, and we should spare nothing in defining marriage the way every civilization has as the union of one man and one woman joined together as one flesh, as we believe in the Scripture in order to procreate."
Religious Right forces will have plenty of help.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormons) has also spoken out strongly in favor of Proposition 8. According to the San Francisco Chronicle, in June, "the church's top leaders called on California Mormons to 'do all you can to support the proposed constitutional amendment by donating your means and time.'"
In early August, the California Catholic Conference issued a statement urging followers to volunteer and provide financial support to pass Proposition 8. Though the bishops said they believe in treating everyone with dignity, they insisted that it is "ideal for the well being of children" to be raised by a mother and father.
In addition to California, Arizona and Florida also have similar amendments on their November ballots. Near the end of July, roughly 3,000 pastors from all three states joined in a Religious Right-convened conference call to develop a strategy to get these amendments passed.
Beginning Sept. 24, some will fast and pray for 40 days, ending Election Day. Other major prayer events are being planned in these states for Nov. 1, according to Charisma magazine.
The conference call was hosted by Pastor Jim Garlow of Skyline Wesleyan Church in San Diego, who started the petition drive to get Proposition 8 on the ballot. Others on the call included Family Research Council President Tony Perkins, Bishop Harry R. Jackson Jr. of the High Impact Leadership Coalition and Colson.
"This is a spiritual battle; it must be won in prayer," said Lou Engle.
Engle is co-founder of TheCall, a theocracy-minded movement gathering young adults to pray and fast for breakthrough and revival. "We need to take away the rights of the powers of darkness to bring this kind of resolution forward."
Speakers on the conference call encouraged pastors to host voter registration drives, commit to prayer and fasting and raise money for the marriage campaigns. California pastors are urging their congregations to pray twice a day, at 8 a.m. and 8 p.m., so Proposition 8 passes.
Long before the California high court's decision even came down, Garlow spearheaded the petition drive to get Proposition 8 on the ballot. In November 2007, 200 pastors and other conservative Christian leaders met at his church, where "speaker after speaker reiterated what churches stood to lose, the centrality of Scripture to the issue, and the need for an amendment petition drive that would move quickly," reported World, an evangelical newsweekly.
Soon after Garlow's meeting, conservative Christian groups, including the California Family Council and Protect Marriage, began mobilizing pastors to participate in a petition drive to get an anti-gay marriage amendment on the ballot that would state, "Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in the state of California."
In addition to Garlow, Chris Clark, a pastor of East Clairemont Southern Baptist Church and the Rev. Miles MacPherson, a former defensive back for the NFL's San Diego Chargers, also took leading roles.
"When I heard what was happening and what was at stake, I wanted to fight," MacPherson told World. "I did not want to look back on this and have to look God in the eye and have Him say, 'Why didn't you do something? I gave you a big mouth -- why didn't you use it?'"
Fortunately, MacPherson is not the only one who is speaking out. Though their petition drive ended in a collection of 1.12 million signatures, more than enough to place it on the ballot, Religious Right activists will not have the last word on the definition of marriage in the state of California.
Stephanie Campbell, Americans United's Orange County chapter leader, is working with the Equality California's No on 8 Campaign. So are other AU chapters in the Golden State. Together the coalition is educating on the ballot initiative and correcting Religious Right propaganda.
Conservative religious groups are wrongly preaching to voters that under the new California Supreme Court decision, pastors would be required to go against their own doctrines to perform lesbian and gay wedding ceremonies, or risk losing state tax-exempt status. Pastors might even face criminal penalties, they say.
Neither claim is true.
"Religious groups and clergy members have a constitutionally protected right to recognize or refuse to recognize religious marriages based on the tenets of their particular faith," Equality California writes on its Web site. "That has not changed and will not change. But the government can't discriminate against same-sex couples when issuing civil marriage licenses or solemnizing civil marriages."
The Religious Right's claims are blatantly false, AU's Campbell said. Though it seems unlikely that their tactics could fool most California voters, Campbell thinks Religious Right influence is widespread even in a state considered liberal on social issues.
"It's not overt like states with Christian license plates or those that are trying to teach creationism in schools," Campbell said, "but in our county, almost every city is putting 'In God We Trust;' in city council chambers. For councils that couldn't decide, it is on the November ballot. It's become a really big deal, and these kinds of issues will bring out the Religious Right to vote.
"Over the past eight years, there is a lot more conservative voting in California," Campbell continued. "It would be a mistake to assume that we will win; we have to be out there fighting this."
Both Tyler and Olson are on board with Americans United and plan to speak at chapter events in Orange County and Bakersfield. The couple sees Proposition 8 not only as an equal protection issue, but also as a clear violation of separation of church and state.
Olson's grandfather, Culbert Levy Olson, was the first elected Democratic governor of California and ran on a separation-of-church-and-state platform, making this battle hit even closer to home.
"This is the church trying to control the state," Tyler said. "If they say it's because of their religious beliefs, somehow they are entitled to discriminate against you. AU clearly understands that the religious point of view of one person should not take away the civil rights of anyone else."
Tyler thinks the proposition is likely to lose, taking the optimistic view that the "fight against marriage equality is now on our side."
"When we walk across the street or go into a Starbucks, people say 'Oh, it's you, congratulations," Olson said. "We haven't had one negative response."
Even Republican Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger seems to believe the Religious Right's attempts are just wasting everyone's time. When he appeared on NBC's "Meet the Press" June 29, Schwarzenegger said he did not support Proposition 8, and that the state should accept the decision of the California Supreme Court.
"There are so many other more important issues that we have to address in California," he said. "So I think to spend any time on this initiative is a waste of time."
Since the Supreme Court decision, California Attorney General Jerry Brown altered the title and summary language of Proposition 8, making it clear that if voters voted "yes" for Proposition 8, California could "lose several tens of millions of dollars in sales taxes."
Brown also changed the ballot title of Proposition 8 from "limit on marriage" to "eliminates the right of same-sex couples to marry," in order to explain that Proposition 8 would be the first amendment written into the state constitution that takes rights away from citizens.
"The Supreme Court ruled that we are protected by the Constitution," Tyler said. "This is finally telling the truth of what this is about. This is not to 'save marriage,' it is to take away a civil right from a minority group of people."
The Alliance Defense Fund (ADF) filed a lawsuit after Brown changed the title and summary language, arguing that the new version is biased. The ADF, a powerful Religious Right legal group founded by TV preachers, also spread more misleading propaganda by arguing that without the amendment, schools would have to teach children about gay marriage.
After hearing arguments from both sides, a California Superior Court ruled that the title was an accurate statement of the amendment's primary purpose. The court also rejected the assertion that marriage by same-sex couples would be required in California school curriculum. Under California statutes, children "cannot be required to attend any health-related instruction, including instruction on the subject of marriage, against their parents' will."
Still, the Religious Right trudges on, claiming redefining marriage could severely limit "religious freedom."
"This is ground zero in a culture war that the California Supreme Court just declared on Christianity and every single faith," Maggie Gallagher, president of the National Organization for Marriage and co-author of The Case for Marriage, said during the July conference call, as reported by Charisma. "I'm here to tell you the consequences to the liberty of the church and other faith traditions are very real and serious."
But not all religious groups feel their faith traditions are threatened by marriage equality. California Faith for Equality, along with the Unitarian Universalist Legislative Ministry, filed an amicus brief prior to the California Supreme Court's decision supporting freedom to marry. More than 400 clergy and congregations from a variety of faiths also signed the brief.
"Every movement for liberation and progressive social change has been fueled by people of faith and religious communities -- from the abolition of slavery, to women's suffrage, to the civil rights movement," the Rev. Dr. Jay Johnson, an Episcopal priest, said on an advocacy video for California Faith for Equality. "People of faith and religious communities have every reason to support the freedom of all people to marry whom they choose."
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: EJW on Sep 17, 2008 12:42 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» You clearly...
Posted by: AlexaD
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Posted by: Julian on Sep 17, 2008 5:04 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Gays and religion -- a refreshing perspective
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: dmwsd92 on Sep 17, 2008 3:55 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Yes, do conservatives constantly decry gay marriage to hide their own higher divorce rates?
Posted by: Beck
» Yes, it is really embarrasing out here in the state of Misery. Apologies for my state going Bush 2x!
Posted by: dmwsd92
Comments are closed-
Posted by: helenahanbasquet on Sep 17, 2008 4:19 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Stinking hypocrites, I hate 'em.
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» RE: I wonder what would happen
Posted by: TagsNOLA
» RE: I wonder what would happen
Posted by: Dboy
» Dboy...
Posted by: zipper696
» RE: I wonder what would happen; wow, good point!
Posted by: Beck
» Ban divorce ?
Posted by: zipper696
Comments are closed-
Posted by: lessbread on Sep 17, 2008 8:29 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[snip]
The Public Policy Institute of California (PPIC) has just released a survey that shows Proposition 8 to amend the California Constitution to eliminate the right of same sex couples to marry would be defeated 54% to 40% if the election were held today.
Two other measures on the November ballot are also in trouble. Proposition 4, the “Waiting Period and Parental Notification of Minor’s Pregnancy” constitutional amendment is favored by 47% to 44%. Proposition 11, the “Redistricting Constitutional Amendment and Statute” is favored by 39% to 36%. Generally, two months before an election, ballot measures need to be polling in the 60% or above range to pass when the election is held.
[/snip]
Prop 8 supporters are desperate. They've robocalled my house twice so far. When Prop 8 was having trouble getting on the ballot earlier this year they robocalled my house four times. I guess they figure that everyone in Fresno supports their myopic worldview.
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: NoPCZone on Sep 17, 2008 8:37 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The 'Christian' Right Wing pundits and supporters will not advertise their desire for a theocracy up front, but will admit it under direct and pointed questioning. They will admit America is a secular democracy but then tell you it should be a theocracy. This desire is preached from pulpits and taught in Sunday School classes all over this country and represents a direct affront to the democracy established by the nation's founders and expanded by various civil rights inclusion movements over the last two centuries.
This struggle is about the very soul of our nation and democracy and strikes at the very heart of what has been good and right about our nation. The respect of divergent faiths and a respect for the philosophy that undergirds them is foundational to a peaceful society- especially in an ever more multicultural and multiethnic nation.
If one needs a reminder of the severe price to be paid for a society sharply divided upon divergent faiths competing for societal control one need look no farther than the recent history of Lebanon, Israel and Ireland. One could also consider the outright slaughter of Christians in Indonesia in recent years.
As a Christ follower, I see the intolerance of these people as a gross misrepresentation of the teachings and intent of Jesus. As an American, I see the intolerance of these people as opposing the principles of American Democracy and subversive in it's most dangerous meaning. As a human being, I see these people as arrogant and hate filled- thinking themselves better, wiser and superior to the rest of society.
The viewpoints, purposes, desires and goals of the 'Christian' Right Wing are antithetical to Democracy, the Christian faith and the ascent of humankind since the enlightenment. They are no different than the Klan or the Know-Nothings.
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» RE: Challenge To Democracy
Posted by: corey
Comments are closed-
Posted by: cathalator on Sep 17, 2008 8:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Proposition 8
Posted by: reelectnoone
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Posted by: reelectnoone on Sep 17, 2008 9:22 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a member of a church you have a right to choose to marry only a member of the opposite sex. Nothing in the law says you have to marry someone of the same gender. It is your choice.
I am tired of churches who are failing to teach their own members what to believe who then try to turn to the law to make their beliefs fit all of the rest of the world.
Mormons...any church...your obligation is to teach YOUR followers YOUR beliefs. Let other churches teach THEIR FOLLOWERS.
If someone does not belong to your church there may be a reason...perhaps THEIR beliefs are not the same as yours.
In America they have a right to THEIR beliefs as do you. Leave them alone and leave the law alone.
Marriage has two components. Religious and Family. A family can be any persons bound by common love and commitment. Any church that would deny that is not a church I would want to be associated with.
Governments are not and should not be in the business of telling anyone who they can or cannot enter into a relationship with. This is a strictly personal decision.
As long as governments codify a financial difference in tax laws, and other relationship-related areas, they force the need for these civil unions. Laws banning gay unions are sexist and sex discrimination.
Perhaps the only change needed to satisfy those who would impose their will on everyone would be to change the name of the institution to include "marriage" as the definition when the parties are male/female and "civil union" if they are same sex provided the rules and legal rights are identical for both definitions.
After all...this is really a fight about equality...and what better place than in America.
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» RE: Churches....stay out of it.
Posted by: Dboy
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jeffrey7 on Sep 17, 2008 9:39 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe when you wave the dead-guy effigy about you're somehow 'forgiven'. I think not. That seems to be one big reason christians kill so easily. They're forgiven.
If you study christian history you'll find more bloodshed,molestations and evil intent than any Hollywood picture or lifestyle.
Jesus said "You can do the same as I and greater". If their actions are the proof of
'greater' things,they ain't following Jesus,they're following the dollar. Scared paritionairs spend alot to buy forgivness via the collection plate.
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» RE: Muzzle the Religious Right.
Posted by: 27raptor660
» RE: Muzzle the Religious Right.
Posted by: jeffrey7
» RE: Muzzle the Religious Right.
Posted by: john mont
Comments are closed-
Posted by: CatDad on Sep 17, 2008 9:44 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Right has basically maxed-out this issue...the glory days of the orgy of multiple-state same sex marriage amendments (2002-2004) is over...
Ummm...wasn't it a man by the name of John McCain who shot down the Federal Marriage Amendment Act in the Senate?? Now the Right has imbraced him as their Moses to lead the fight against "they gays." It never ceases to amaze me how easily these people can be duped by the GOP...They manage to create a tastier, "New and Improved" version of Jim Jones' KoolAid every four years.
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Posted by: dudelette on Sep 17, 2008 10:21 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: willymack on Sep 17, 2008 11:45 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Let's face it, folks
Posted by: CatDad
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Posted by: johnbradleycopeland on Sep 17, 2008 11:52 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: X-POLYGAMIST WIFE on Sep 17, 2008 12:21 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And they've been doing it for 8 generations!
BANKING ON HEAVEN . COM
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Posted by: Drafus D. Dragon on Sep 17, 2008 1:32 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: macdon1 on Sep 17, 2008 2:12 PM
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» RE: NOT IN MY STATE THEY WON'T!!!
Posted by: undrgrndgirl
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Posted by: Ottomatic on Sep 19, 2008 3:42 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Keep Big Business from running (Ruining) Government.
The Propaganda Spewing, Capitalist’s Tax Shelter, pushes another
Phony Ballot Indicative.
Bush/Cheney/McSame would like to peek into your bedroom!
Oh, Holly Roller Billionaire hides
Behind the Guise of Religion
Draped in a Flag, Lapel pin and plenty of wooden Crosses!
To plant on your Child's grave.
Funny how they have plenty of money to fill up the Cemeteries and none for
The Sick or Famished!
How Christian is that?
So much for Healing the Sick and Feeding the Poor.
While The Pope a Dope rides around in a Golden Calf,
Picking your Pocket,
Arms for the Poor!
The High Priest stops fondling the Alter Boy and
Bashes you over the Head with a Crucifix.
The Bored again.
So Bored with what’s going on in their own Bedroom that,
They want to PEEK into yours.
Sounds like Spying to me!
The Bored Again are so Flustered, Brain washed and Conditioned
That they think the only way to out is to:
Destroy The World
World War III
A Nuclear Holocaust!
Isn’t that wonderful.
Everyone must die so I can go to Heaven.
What kind of
Pie in The Sky have you’ve been eating?
Destroy The Creation.
Is that Christ like?
Is that what The Prince of Peace preached?
Sorry, been there and already done that.
We all are suffering from the Consequences of relentless Selfishness and Greed, mass Murder, Pollution, The Poverty, Pain, Suffering, Death and Destruction that
WAR brings with it.
Look out your window,
The Country is falling apart.
If you believe Armageddon is the only way to solve our problems?
You’re mistaken and have been misled,
War is the problem and
Peace is the only solution.
The Second coming of Christ
Is in Spirit.
Follow the Lamb.
He pointed in the Correct direction
That's why the money lenders KILLED him.
Follow his teachings and
Step on the Path.
The Fear Mongering Corporations want to scare you,
Instead of telling you the Truth.
Everything is their fault.
Bush/Cheney/ McCain are in Power.
They are the Problem.
Vote them out.
The Country is going to Hell in a hand basket and
BUSH is Cheer Leading the destruction.
Red Herring and Pie in the Sky is hard to swallow on an empty stomach.
Get real!
Look behind the vale:
Who is pulling the Levers?
The Corpirates
Fascists are Goose Stepping
Across America.
All for ME and None for you!
A Black Army
Fences and Pens.
With Three Million in Prison and
The Dark Army Camped in your Backyard.
What are we going to do?
Plant a Fig tree or
Carry the Olive Branch.
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Posted by: zipper696 on Sep 19, 2008 8:30 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So, after trashing gay marriage what is the NEXT target, banning homosexual practices completely? Then anal and oral sex between heteros? Then non-Missionary positions?
"..the union of one man and one woman joined together as one flesh, as we believe in the Scripture in order to procreate."
Ah ha! Here's the bottom line. You do NOT have any sex until you are married. You then have sex ONLY for the purpose of creating children. You continue to have sex to create more children until either the male's fertility ceases or the female's uterus collapses.
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Posted by: rickiey on Sep 22, 2008 12:20 PM
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I dare them to fight this all the way.
Because when it comes down to it, they will lose.
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Posted by: EJW on Sep 17, 2008 12:42 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» You clearly...
Posted by: AlexaD
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Julian on Sep 17, 2008 5:04 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Gays and religion -- a refreshing perspective
Posted by: Dboy
Comments are closed-
Posted by: dmwsd92 on Sep 17, 2008 3:55 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Yes, do conservatives constantly decry gay marriage to hide their own higher divorce rates?
Posted by: Beck
» Yes, it is really embarrasing out here in the state of Misery. Apologies for my state going Bush 2x!
Posted by: dmwsd92
Comments are closed-
Posted by: helenahanbasquet on Sep 17, 2008 4:19 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Stinking hypocrites, I hate 'em.
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» RE: I wonder what would happen
Posted by: TagsNOLA
» RE: I wonder what would happen
Posted by: Dboy
» Dboy...
Posted by: zipper696
» RE: I wonder what would happen; wow, good point!
Posted by: Beck
» Ban divorce ?
Posted by: zipper696
Comments are closed-
Posted by: lessbread on Sep 17, 2008 8:29 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[snip]
The Public Policy Institute of California (PPIC) has just released a survey that shows Proposition 8 to amend the California Constitution to eliminate the right of same sex couples to marry would be defeated 54% to 40% if the election were held today.
Two other measures on the November ballot are also in trouble. Proposition 4, the “Waiting Period and Parental Notification of Minor’s Pregnancy” constitutional amendment is favored by 47% to 44%. Proposition 11, the “Redistricting Constitutional Amendment and Statute” is favored by 39% to 36%. Generally, two months before an election, ballot measures need to be polling in the 60% or above range to pass when the election is held.
[/snip]
Prop 8 supporters are desperate. They've robocalled my house twice so far. When Prop 8 was having trouble getting on the ballot earlier this year they robocalled my house four times. I guess they figure that everyone in Fresno supports their myopic worldview.
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: NoPCZone on Sep 17, 2008 8:37 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The 'Christian' Right Wing pundits and supporters will not advertise their desire for a theocracy up front, but will admit it under direct and pointed questioning. They will admit America is a secular democracy but then tell you it should be a theocracy. This desire is preached from pulpits and taught in Sunday School classes all over this country and represents a direct affront to the democracy established by the nation's founders and expanded by various civil rights inclusion movements over the last two centuries.
This struggle is about the very soul of our nation and democracy and strikes at the very heart of what has been good and right about our nation. The respect of divergent faiths and a respect for the philosophy that undergirds them is foundational to a peaceful society- especially in an ever more multicultural and multiethnic nation.
If one needs a reminder of the severe price to be paid for a society sharply divided upon divergent faiths competing for societal control one need look no farther than the recent history of Lebanon, Israel and Ireland. One could also consider the outright slaughter of Christians in Indonesia in recent years.
As a Christ follower, I see the intolerance of these people as a gross misrepresentation of the teachings and intent of Jesus. As an American, I see the intolerance of these people as opposing the principles of American Democracy and subversive in it's most dangerous meaning. As a human being, I see these people as arrogant and hate filled- thinking themselves better, wiser and superior to the rest of society.
The viewpoints, purposes, desires and goals of the 'Christian' Right Wing are antithetical to Democracy, the Christian faith and the ascent of humankind since the enlightenment. They are no different than the Klan or the Know-Nothings.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Challenge To Democracy
Posted by: corey
Comments are closed-
Posted by: cathalator on Sep 17, 2008 8:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Proposition 8
Posted by: reelectnoone
Comments are closed-
Posted by: reelectnoone on Sep 17, 2008 9:22 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a member of a church you have a right to choose to marry only a member of the opposite sex. Nothing in the law says you have to marry someone of the same gender. It is your choice.
I am tired of churches who are failing to teach their own members what to believe who then try to turn to the law to make their beliefs fit all of the rest of the world.
Mormons...any church...your obligation is to teach YOUR followers YOUR beliefs. Let other churches teach THEIR FOLLOWERS.
If someone does not belong to your church there may be a reason...perhaps THEIR beliefs are not the same as yours.
In America they have a right to THEIR beliefs as do you. Leave them alone and leave the law alone.
Marriage has two components. Religious and Family. A family can be any persons bound by common love and commitment. Any church that would deny that is not a church I would want to be associated with.
Governments are not and should not be in the business of telling anyone who they can or cannot enter into a relationship with. This is a strictly personal decision.
As long as governments codify a financial difference in tax laws, and other relationship-related areas, they force the need for these civil unions. Laws banning gay unions are sexist and sex discrimination.
Perhaps the only change needed to satisfy those who would impose their will on everyone would be to change the name of the institution to include "marriage" as the definition when the parties are male/female and "civil union" if they are same sex provided the rules and legal rights are identical for both definitions.
After all...this is really a fight about equality...and what better place than in America.
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» RE: Churches....stay out of it.
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: jeffrey7 on Sep 17, 2008 9:39 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe when you wave the dead-guy effigy about you're somehow 'forgiven'. I think not. That seems to be one big reason christians kill so easily. They're forgiven.
If you study christian history you'll find more bloodshed,molestations and evil intent than any Hollywood picture or lifestyle.
Jesus said "You can do the same as I and greater". If their actions are the proof of
'greater' things,they ain't following Jesus,they're following the dollar. Scared paritionairs spend alot to buy forgivness via the collection plate.
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» RE: Muzzle the Religious Right.
Posted by: 27raptor660
» RE: Muzzle the Religious Right.
Posted by: jeffrey7
» RE: Muzzle the Religious Right.
Posted by: john mont
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Posted by: CatDad on Sep 17, 2008 9:44 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Right has basically maxed-out this issue...the glory days of the orgy of multiple-state same sex marriage amendments (2002-2004) is over...
Ummm...wasn't it a man by the name of John McCain who shot down the Federal Marriage Amendment Act in the Senate?? Now the Right has imbraced him as their Moses to lead the fight against "they gays." It never ceases to amaze me how easily these people can be duped by the GOP...They manage to create a tastier, "New and Improved" version of Jim Jones' KoolAid every four years.
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Posted by: dudelette on Sep 17, 2008 10:21 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: willymack on Sep 17, 2008 11:45 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Let's face it, folks
Posted by: CatDad
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Posted by: johnbradleycopeland on Sep 17, 2008 11:52 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: X-POLYGAMIST WIFE on Sep 17, 2008 12:21 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And they've been doing it for 8 generations!
BANKING ON HEAVEN . COM
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Posted by: Drafus D. Dragon on Sep 17, 2008 1:32 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: macdon1 on Sep 17, 2008 2:12 PM
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» RE: NOT IN MY STATE THEY WON'T!!!
Posted by: undrgrndgirl
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Posted by: Ottomatic on Sep 19, 2008 3:42 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Keep Big Business from running (Ruining) Government.
The Propaganda Spewing, Capitalist’s Tax Shelter, pushes another
Phony Ballot Indicative.
Bush/Cheney/McSame would like to peek into your bedroom!
Oh, Holly Roller Billionaire hides
Behind the Guise of Religion
Draped in a Flag, Lapel pin and plenty of wooden Crosses!
To plant on your Child's grave.
Funny how they have plenty of money to fill up the Cemeteries and none for
The Sick or Famished!
How Christian is that?
So much for Healing the Sick and Feeding the Poor.
While The Pope a Dope rides around in a Golden Calf,
Picking your Pocket,
Arms for the Poor!
The High Priest stops fondling the Alter Boy and
Bashes you over the Head with a Crucifix.
The Bored again.
So Bored with what’s going on in their own Bedroom that,
They want to PEEK into yours.
Sounds like Spying to me!
The Bored Again are so Flustered, Brain washed and Conditioned
That they think the only way to out is to:
Destroy The World
World War III
A Nuclear Holocaust!
Isn’t that wonderful.
Everyone must die so I can go to Heaven.
What kind of
Pie in The Sky have you’ve been eating?
Destroy The Creation.
Is that Christ like?
Is that what The Prince of Peace preached?
Sorry, been there and already done that.
We all are suffering from the Consequences of relentless Selfishness and Greed, mass Murder, Pollution, The Poverty, Pain, Suffering, Death and Destruction that
WAR brings with it.
Look out your window,
The Country is falling apart.
If you believe Armageddon is the only way to solve our problems?
You’re mistaken and have been misled,
War is the problem and
Peace is the only solution.
The Second coming of Christ
Is in Spirit.
Follow the Lamb.
He pointed in the Correct direction
That's why the money lenders KILLED him.
Follow his teachings and
Step on the Path.
The Fear Mongering Corporations want to scare you,
Instead of telling you the Truth.
Everything is their fault.
Bush/Cheney/ McCain are in Power.
They are the Problem.
Vote them out.
The Country is going to Hell in a hand basket and
BUSH is Cheer Leading the destruction.
Red Herring and Pie in the Sky is hard to swallow on an empty stomach.
Get real!
Look behind the vale:
Who is pulling the Levers?
The Corpirates
Fascists are Goose Stepping
Across America.
All for ME and None for you!
A Black Army
Fences and Pens.
With Three Million in Prison and
The Dark Army Camped in your Backyard.
What are we going to do?
Plant a Fig tree or
Carry the Olive Branch.
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Posted by: zipper696 on Sep 19, 2008 8:30 AM
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So, after trashing gay marriage what is the NEXT target, banning homosexual practices completely? Then anal and oral sex between heteros? Then non-Missionary positions?
"..the union of one man and one woman joined together as one flesh, as we believe in the Scripture in order to procreate."
Ah ha! Here's the bottom line. You do NOT have any sex until you are married. You then have sex ONLY for the purpose of creating children. You continue to have sex to create more children until either the male's fertility ceases or the female's uterus collapses.
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Posted by: rickiey on Sep 22, 2008 12:20 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I dare them to fight this all the way.
Because when it comes down to it, they will lose.
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