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Sex and Relationships

Readers Write: The Fall of Larry Craig

By AlterNet Staff, AlterNet. Posted September 8, 2007.


It is perhaps the national spectacle of liberal and LGBT organizations leaping into bed with conservatives that has prompted some writers -- and readers -- to question what, exactly, we're condemning.
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On Monday August 27th, the media broke the Larry Craig scandal. By Saturday of that week, Senator Craig, buffeted by the media, his fellow politicians, left-wing and right-wing groups, announced his intent to resign -- right in time for everyone to relax on Labor Day. The call for the senator's head spanned the political spectrum: from Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) condemning Craig's actions as "unforgivable" to the gay blogger, Mike Rogers, who had placed Craig on his list of politicians to "out" almost a year prior. It is perhaps the national spectacle of liberal and LGBT organizations leaping into bed with conservatives that has prompted some writers -- and readers -- to question what, exactly, we're condemning.

Some like Sandip Roy in his article, "The Outcome of Wanting (Gay) Sex" began by stating, "I come to defend Larry Craig, not to bury him." What followed was a clarification of the facts: that Craig might have wanted to have sex, but did not engage in any sexual acts. These were details that AlterNet readers like tomkara were also quick to remind other writers, "Several posters here keep saying or implying that Craig "had sex" in public. HE DID NOT." Ames agreed, "This is an important point to make and I'm somewhat surprised that it hasn't been made earlier. Wanting, thinking about, or engaging in homosexual behaviour (with a consenting adult) is neither morally wrong nor a crime."

One area of agreement among AlterNet commenters was that Larry Craig was a moral hypocrite. Just last year Craig voted in favor of a constitutional ban of same-sex marriage. Seven years before that, he voted against expanding hate crimes to include sexual orientation. Poster thornwolf agreed that Craig didn't really commit any "real crime," but that his hypocrisy was the crime deserving of "punishment and expulsion." Libertine said, "I would have more sympathy for Craig if he'd not supported anti-gay legislation and other anti-progressive means. It's the hypocrisy that causes me to lose all sympathy for him." Fluffmuffinmom pointed to the use of anti-gay initiatives during the 2004 elections when "the homophobes took the bait and Craig and his Cronies wallowed in re-election glory." Bryanth798 noted, "If it had been someone else besides him, he would be calling for their blood."

Other AlterNet readers argued that his hypocrisy alone did not merit expulsion from the Senate. Mdharold wrote, "Hypocrisy is no crime." Freedom38 went further, saying, "We should let him remain in the Senate, but every time he attempts to discriminate against the LGBT community, we'll hold up an article or photo and cough loudly ("Ehemm ...")."

Jmooney wrote that Craig's fate should be left to the Idahoan voters. "He should go on statewide TV and make his case and ask for Idahoans to call his office ... That's how Ted Kennedy did it after Chappaquiddick ... does anyone think that some questionable behavior in a public bathroom is worse than the death of a young woman caused by Kennedy's questionable behavior? ... If we pull stuff like this away from voters of a given jurisdiction, that just makes voters less and less competent."

For some readers, there was a contextual understanding for why Craig kept his homosexual desires confined to bathroom stalls. The aforementioned tomkara wrote, "Yes, Craig had the "option" of finding somebody in a gay bar or going online -- but as a horribly closeted man he wouldn't have been caught dead in a gay bar and would have left a trail had he gone online." Others, like HumanCourt, were more vocal, "AND IF HE IS GAY (admitting it or not) HE SHOULD STAND UP ... TO ALL THE STRAIGHT PEOPLE TELLING HIM AND BULLYING HIM ABOUT HIS HYPOCRISY. GIVE ME A BREAK. YEARS OF STRAIGHT PEOPLE RULES OF HYPOCRISY SHOULD BE SHOVED BACK IN THEIR FACE."


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Larry Craig is toast
Posted by: vox persona on Sep 8, 2007 1:23 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I read every comment in the original very interesting thread, and those opinions ran the gamut. The hypocrisy issue was not lost on me, and even though I don't seem to have that schadenfreude gene (I do not delight in another's misery and misfortune), I do believe in complete karma. Sow what you reap, baby. I've seen Craig on tv since the 80's, and always had the same visceral reaction to his right wing rhetoric. Oh what a difference an attempted bathroom hookup can make. If there was a big enough problem to sic vice squad on the scene, I have no problem with resources used to make bathrooms safe for kids, adolescents and breeders from unwanted and creepy sexual advances. Always think of the kids first. But the problem I do have with this particular case is not the entrapment factor (the cop didn't make the first move), but the case borders on thought crimes. Sure, he employed gay 'signals' and it was fairly certain what his intentions were, but the cop acted too soon. Once Craig slid his hand under the stall, all the cop had to do was whisper "What do you want to do?", and the response would surely been enough to warrant a vice charge in a sting. Butb sans that, if we could be arrested for what only seems like someone's intentions, we risk sliding deeper and deeper into a police state. Craig was a victim of the policies and governmental attitudes he himself helped to create. Karma sure is a biotch.

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» RE: Larry Craig is toast Posted by: kimidol
» RE: Larry Craig is toast Posted by: Intellect
» RE: Larry Craig is toast Posted by: snarlah
» RE: Larry Craig is toast Posted by: Aimleft
Public health?
Posted by: Dr T on Sep 8, 2007 3:27 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I read many commentaries on Larry Craig's behavior yet none have questioned whether the sex the Senator wanted would have been safe sex. Would he have used a condom? Washed his hands afterwards?

Prohibitions on sexual behaviors pushes those behaviors into areas least accessable to public health interventions. The same is true for the war on drugs. The end result is we are all more at risk because we have increased the vectors for disease.

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» RE: Public health? Posted by: snarlah
» RE: Public health? Posted by: Lauren
Don't care if it's gay or straight sex
Posted by: jnelson4765 on Sep 8, 2007 6:31 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's just skeevy.

His behaviour falls outside of what we consider responsible adult activity. I'd hope that any openly gay politician caught behaving as badly is treated as poorly - or any straight politician caught nailing a 18 year old mallrat in a suburban mall.

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Where is the ACLU?
Posted by: gophigure on Sep 8, 2007 6:45 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a resident of Idaho and -- believe it or not -- a liberal Democrat, I have no love for Larry Craig's politics. After the news broke I spent the first day along with most everyone else smirking and chuckling. But on the second evening of watching the talking heads on TV discuss his "guilt" I was suddenly struck by what so many others have also been commenting on -- what the Hell was the "crime" here?

As big a hippocrite as Craig is and as much as I want him out of Congress, I have to acknowledge that he, too, is supposed to enjoy certain rights in this country.

Foot-tapping? Shoe leather contact? A hand run under the stall? Give me a break! What about the guy in the bar who says to the woman, "What are you doing later?" We all know what he means, don't we? And the man standing on the corner who whistles at the woman in the short skirt, "Hey Baybeeee!". And what about the old traditonal "wink". I mean, if you get a wink in return, it's definitely good news! The singles scene in this city must be pretty bleak if you get popped $500 every time you try to make contact. Oh, right, this sort of coduct is only a "crime" if it is a suspected homosexual, correct?

Which leads to the obvious question: Where the Hell is the ACLU? While I have not always respected the people the ACLU defends, I have always respected the goal of the organization to defend everyone's rights. It should not have taken them even the one day it took me to "get it", busy as I was enjoying Craig's predicament. No, the ACLU is being sadly and obviously silent on this one. As the cliche' says, they are incredibly conspicous by their absence. It is a sad day for human rights and a sad day for the ACLU.

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» RE: Where is the ACLU? Posted by: Intellect
It's not 1969 and this isn't Chappaquiddick.
Posted by: Prairie Waif on Sep 8, 2007 7:10 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Politics in the 1960's had yet to barge into politicians' bedrooms, unless it was for the "power of blackmail" and the "threat of blackmail."

The press were well aware of the sexual dalliances of ALL THE PRESIDENTS up to the age of the MORAL MAJORITY campaign of Jerry Falwell and Newt Gingrich. The Secret Service kept their oat to be "secret" about moving the various women in the lives of previous Presidents in and out of the White House and into various hotels at conferences and summits throughout the world.

While Mary Jo Kopechne had a tragic death, the results of modern day forensic investigative techniques call into question the timelines and presumptions of Kennedy's inebriation and who was driving the car, given the position it came to rest on the bottom of Chappaquiddick Bay. This in NO WAY excuses Kennedy's lack of quick reporting of the incident.

In 1969, a Senator WAS a representative of HIS state but since the REPUBLICAN PARTY decided to sell itself as the party of TRUE Christian faith, TRUE family values,TRUE Anti-abortion, TRUE integrity, TRUE morality, True honesty, TRUE patriotism with the help of Jerry Falwell's Moral Majority and the support of Newt Gingrich and his bastions in the Republican Party, ALL SENATORS BELONG TO THE NATION not just their home constituency.

Why has this evolved? Because the MORAL MAJORITY, James Dobson, Ralph Reed, and the other self-appointed "more-Christian-than-you" Lobbyists have gathered a nationwide-wide base of donors who will throw any amount of money into the political collection plate organize NATIONWIDE ANTI-Democratic political campaigns. They will lobby NATIONWIDE against just about anything that says, "Not REPUBLICAN initiated."

So, to say that the State of Idaho should make the judgement on whether Larry Craig stays in office as Massachusetts did Kennedyin 1969, is like comparing trees and rock; vegetable and mineral.

In today's political climate, as redefined by those who deem themselves the guardians of our morality and integrity of personal values, nothing prior to the revolution of the Moral Majority can truly be compared with relevance.


infamous accident at Chappaquiddick
July 19, 1969

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what nobody said
Posted by: aromatix on Sep 8, 2007 7:28 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Craven, despicable actions, the utter depravity of public homosexual encounters exhibited by a member of Congress is way beyond the pale of acceptable behavior for the elect. This type of condemnation was never mentioned in the mainstream media. The question is why? have we lowered the bar yet again of what is acceptable? More than anything it shows the huge lack of responsibility or concern about what is destroying our country, piece by piece, corrupt by corrupt politician, one by one.

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» RE: what nobody said Posted by: CatDad
CentralScrutinizerLXI
Posted by: CentralScrutinizerLXI on Sep 8, 2007 7:37 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This has not been adderssed in any article/comment I have seen. Is this man a MORMAN????? If so, FERGETTITABOUTIT, THE Morman Church does not abide homosexuality. I was reared in that hell. Thank DOG I was able to extrac myself.

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» RE: CentralScrutinizerLXI Posted by: cacky
» RE: CentralScrutinizerLXI Posted by: CentralScrutinizerLXI
» RE: CentralScrutinizerLXI Posted by: Lauren
» RE: CentralScrutinizerLXI Posted by: cacky
hmm
Posted by: Kryptman40k on Sep 8, 2007 8:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can't believe that nobody is talking about his congressional badge waving to get out of trouble.

The main issue for me is that he thinks he is above the law, like most of the republicans in power.

The law (should be) the last word in our land, and a senator should bow to it like any other citizen.

Craig, however, thinks that he gets special treatment and tried to intimidate the officer who ARRESTED him.

This isn't about being gay, or being a gay basher. This isn't even about lewd conduct in public places (which is just as wrong for heterosexuals.). It's about a congressman who is drunk on power and thinks he is above the law of the land.

Just like bush has started and illegal war and padded himself again it legally. Or how Rumsfeld is a war criminal but he'll never pay for it. Or how Cheney shoots people in the face and doesn't spend any time in jail.

Again, to all those saying, "this is about gay hating, he did nothing wrong." Why don't you say that to all the people who get caught on TO CATCH A PREDATOR? None of them actually "have sex". The girls/boys aren't actually underage. (yes they do have gay men on there.) I see no outrage for them?

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» where is the edit feature? Posted by: Kryptman40k
» RE: hmm Posted by: Lauren
» Do as we say, not as we do..... Posted by: Aureantes
Sick
Posted by: Katrinepa on Sep 8, 2007 8:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The man is indeed a hypocrite, but my concern here is for the public at large. As a mother, what bothers me no end is that this happened, and happens, in a public bathroom. Children go into these bathrooms! Craig did not act on any perceived lewd behavior, but there are men who do, and it makes me sick to know that people have liasons in bathrooms, rather than in a more private place.

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observer
Posted by: observing on Sep 8, 2007 9:06 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Two things that may not have been mentioned: This poor schmuck (who, by his behavior, isn't gay but may be homosexual) is addicted to high risk behavior. He's prominent and "getting caught" has much more of an impact on his life than on some Joe Dokes. These days, security at airports is much tighter than before, so public bathrooms at airports are more watched than public bathrooms elsewhere. He could have come into Minneapolis (15 minutes from the airport) and trolled for sex on Hennepin Av. (well known) or the Rose Garden (also well known) or Bare Ass Beach (notorious) without the fear of being caught out. He reportedly had a three hour layover, so he had the time. He seems to have liked risking his career on an annymous one off.
Second, the airport said they had many complaints of men trolling in the bathrooms, so put cops on detail to arrest them. Minneapolis is short staffed on cops these days, so having them spending hours in bathrooms seems a waste of resources. The question is, why the many complaints? Don't men know how to 'just say no' when someone signals them? I don't believe this crap about "oh, the children, the children." Feh! No, it's a one syllable word, and anyone can say it. So why are grown men complaining and running to daddy to shelter them from the facts of life?

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» RE: observer Posted by: jgdewey
» RE: observer Posted by: Intellect
» RE: observer Posted by: observing
Bathroom sex is disgusting
Posted by: jgdewey on Sep 8, 2007 11:40 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hey, the police were just responding to complaints about men and perhaps kids, having to witness sex in a public bathroom when all anyone wants is just to use the toilet. Kids go in there right? It's an airport, not a bar. Let's just say that a Senator should have more class than to want to have sex in a public bathroom in as public a place as an airport. And whether he had it or not, solicliting it meant he was planning on it happening if possible, and that's disgusting. I'm not a prude but really, doing it in public in the bathroom ? Not way up there on behaving responsibly. When did having sex become more important than having decency?

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slippery slope
Posted by: madaha on Sep 8, 2007 1:54 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's still not clear to me what law he actually broke. obviously this guy is skeevy, hypocritical, horrible, etc. I have no problem with schadenfreude, but if he can be arrested for this, ANYONE can be arrested for ANYTHING. What is going on? I've read all about this, and it does not compute. How is hitting on someone a crime????

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» RE: slippery slope Posted by: observing
» RE: slippery slope Posted by: jgdewey
» RE: slippery slope Posted by: madaha
» RE: slippery slope Posted by: observing
» RE: slippery slope Posted by: madaha
wrong deus ex machina
Posted by: halrivers on Sep 8, 2007 5:33 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We should not try to ride this deus ex machina to clear Craig from the political stage, as tempting as it is. Lots of decent folks do what some consider icky things to satisfy their needs or whims, lots of folks on our side. We would be better to demonstrate our principles here: liberty, proportion, live and let live.

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I hope he doesn't resign
Posted by: Intellect on Sep 8, 2007 8:08 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would like to see Craig keep his Senate seat although it is doubtful the Republicans will allow him to do so and remain a Republican.
If Craig kept his seat and decided to run again it would again be a major issue on election day, causing the "good" people of Idaho and their Republican Party to fire up their homophobia hopefully making it the negative national issue that it is now.

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What about the simple competence issue ?
Posted by: gripfin@gmail.com on Sep 9, 2007 10:02 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Some want Craig to resign because of what he did (mainly right wing homophobes)
Some want Craig to resign because of hypocrisy (which is not actually a crime).

But for me the biggest issue is this. He (a highly qualified lawyer presumably) says he was under so much stress from a local newspaper hounding him that he made the wrong plea when charged.
Well, now this has broken nationally, he must be under a hell of a lot more stress.
Assuming the job of a Senator is reasonably taxing, how can he possibly right now be competent to execute his duties ? I wouldn't trust his mind to be on the job right now. He's not exactly displaying good judgement throughout the whole affair is he ?

(Personally I hate his hypocrisy too though).

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I AM AFRAID I CANNOT COMISERATE
Posted by: Raymond Emerson on Sep 9, 2007 1:13 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
with any Republican politician that gets caught in a sting. It was the right wing that sought the change in the law back in the eighties. Justice Holmes wrote the majority opinion, if my memory serves me, protecting citizens from entrapment. Entrapment is always wrong. The Republicans under Reagan pressed for the change. They are now being hoisted on their own petard.

If Larry Craig had been fighting for justice, he might have been treated justly. He wasn't fighting for justice. He supported entrapment and he got trapped.

The wealthy and the powerful hire professional liars and professional myth makers to bait us into doing what they want. Ordinary people get baited and switched. Larry Craig was one of their hirelings that accidentally got caught up in their machinations.

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it's the culture, damnit
Posted by: davidg on Sep 9, 2007 2:52 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This soap opera is not about Larry Craig, it is about a rabidly homophobic culture. Mr. Craig confessed to asking for a date inappropriately in an inappropriate location, the naughty boy deserving a slap on the wrist and being sent to bed without dessert. No more. It's the cultural response that bears the scrutiny. Wow, what a fire storm over something that is really almost negligible. (No we don't want creeps in public washrooms, ok.) It's time to take a look at the level of homophobia and, I dare say, sexophobia, in the country. Mr. Bush can lie, kill, maim, create 2 million refugees and there has been no serious move to impeach. He keeps his job. Mr. Craig is a hair's breadth away from losing his job (although I have no particular fondness for him) for naughty foot tapping with national scandal thrown in. Priorities. Time to examine good American values.

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The Party of the Wide Stance
Posted by: Patriot76 on Sep 9, 2007 4:23 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here's a priceless photograph of The Party of the Wide Stance, hard at work on their contract for America. http://wwwthepartyofthewidestance.blogspot.com/

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Gay Marriage
Posted by: rgermano on Sep 11, 2007 5:13 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sadly, most homosexuals around the world are married - they are married to people of the opposite sex. They live lives that range from quiet desperation to extreme hypocrisy (like Craig and Haggard). The men and women in this situation are torn between the families they have created and the fulfilment their true sexual nature. And many years of marriage, even with lots of sex, won't change anybody's sexual orientation - just ask the survivors of the ex-gay movement.

I have an friend who is "obvious", that is he is effeminate, and he's constantly being propositioned by taxi drivers and others who are married. He is a safe bet for them - they don't have to risk the humiliation of propositioning someone straight.

The results of this double life for the participants are depression, anxiety, frustration, and antisocial behavior (like anonymous sex with strangers). Some married gays find partners, often also married, with whom they may share a secret relationship (called a closed-loop relationship), thus sparing their wives, in the case of men, the risk of contracting STDs. Often it's the straight spouses that suffer the most in these mixed-orientation marriages.

I am a gay US citizen living in exile because of discriminatory laws that prevent me from marrying and sponsoring my foreign partner to live with me in the US. This means I have a choice. Either I live with my partner in South America, don't get to earn a US income, and have to struggle to get by in a third world country . . . or I break up with the one I love. What would you choose?

I am disgusted by the ridiculous arguments regarding "changing the definition of marriage". Your heterosexual marriage is not affected by gay people obtaining rights.

Why not encourage gay people to form lasting relationships by holding us to the same moral standards as straights: fidelity and commitment, and giving us the legal privileges that straight couples have. You don't even have to call it "marriage".

And why not let homosexuals be honest with themselves and others by accepting us and affirming our relationships legally and socially. You will save a lot of straight spouses the grief of being in love with men that can never love them totally.

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» RE: Gay Marriage Posted by: davidg
Haifisch
Posted by: Haifisch on Sep 22, 2007 9:04 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As an attorney who began his career many years ago as a municipal prosecutor, I've been terribly perplexed by some of the comments that have been made about Larry Craig's arrest in the Twin Cities International Airport.

Folks, this isn't about being gay, and it's not about "gay" rights (by the way, there are no "gay" rights, there are only human rights). It's about sex in public places being inappropriate. Period.

Would you bring your child into a rest room if you knew, or suspected, that two people were having sex in one of stalls? Of course not. No one wants to be involuntarily exposed to someone else's sexual compulsions, and harried travelers in a busy international airport shouldn't be expected to tolerate public sex.

As far as Adriana Huffington's remarks about the allocation of law enforcement resources, misdemeanors such as Disorderly Conduct (the offense to which Craig knowingly and freely entered a guilty plea) are quality of life offenses, and local governments have every right to enforce these laws. Why in the world do you think the Airport Commission's Police Department put their best young officer in that rest room? Because travelers had complained about men obtrusively seeking public sex in it.

Craig's arrest is about nothing more than forcing what should be private behaviors onto the general public. As a society, we simply don't have to tolerate inappropriate public behaviors. It's insulting to gay people to suggest that this sort of compulsive behavior is somehow acceptable because two men, rather than a man and a woman, are engaging in it.

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