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These God Pundits Can Give You a Splitting Headache

God People are constantly fine-tuning their weird arguments to pimp the righteousness of faith.
May 9, 2009  |  
 
 
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And as for the vaunted triumph of liberalism, what about “the misery wreaked by racism and sexism, the sordid history of colonialism and imperialism, the generation of poverty and famine”? Only by ignoring all this and much more can the claim of human progress at the end of history be maintained: “If ever there was a pious myth and a piece of credulous superstition, it is the liberal-rationalist belief that, a few hiccups apart, we are all steadily en route to a finer world.”  -- Stanley Fish's Blog, God Talk - - NYTimes.com.

I’m always on the lookout for religion’s latest counter-arguments, the new rhetorical approaches that God People are constantly fine-tuning for use in pimping the righteousness of faith (and for demonstrating the moral dissoluteness of agnostics like myself). There isn’t an inherently irresolvable metaphysical challenge that comes close to wasting as much of the world’s time and energy as this particular one. It’s the intellectual equivalent of the eternal R&D quest for a baldness cure: you just never stop being surprised at how many different ways men can find to fail at growing hair.

 

This latest salvo is fired by author/professor Stanley Fish, a prominent religion-peddler of the pointy-headed, turtlenecked genus, who made his case in his blog at the New York Times. Fish was mostly riffing on a recent book written by the windily pompous University of Manchester professor Terry Eagleton, a pudgily superior type, physically resembling a giant runny nose, who seems to have been raised by indulgent aunts who gave him sweets every time he corrected the grammar of other children. The esteemed professor’s new book is called Reason, Faith and Revolution, and it’s sort of an answer to the popular atheist literature of people like Richard Dawkins and Chris Hitchens. If you ever want to give yourself a really good, throbbing headache, go online and check out Eagleton’s lectures at Yale, upon which the book was based, in which one may listen to this soft-soaping old toady do his verbose best to stick his tongue as far as he can up the anus of the next generation of the American upper class.

Like almost all great defenders of religion, Eagleton specializes in putting bunches of words together in ways that sound like linear arguments, but actually make no sense whatsoever. In one speech he takes issue with what he calls the “Yeti” view of faith as espoused by atheists, i.e. the idea that religion is based upon the belief in an object whose existence, like that of the Yeti or the Tooth Fairy, cannot be verified by observation “in the reasonably straightforward way that we can demonstrate the existence of necrophilia or Michael Jackson” (one of a disturbingly high number of Eagleton jokes that nonsensically reference pop culture figures of at best semi-recent vintage). Eagleton’s response to what he calls this “travesty” of illogic:

For one thing, of course, God differs from Unidentified Flying Objects or the Yeti or the Tooth Fairy in not being even a possible object of cognition… it’s not just we cannot see Him, it is as it were that our not seeing him is inherent to God Himself, which is presumably not true of the Yeti.

Got that? It’s not that we can’t see God — it’s that God is inherently unseen! Take that, atheists! He goes on:

For another thing, faith of course is traditionally regarded as a question of certainty… not as a question of probability or speculation or guesswork, but actually as a question of certainty, which is not to say that it’s not also traditionally regarded as being inferior to knowledge. But only fully paid-up rationalists think that nothing is certain but knowledge. Faith, as the author of the epistle to Hebrews writes, is “the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen.” Whatever else may define the science of theology, or religion, it is from a theological view certainly not the question of certainty. I don’t think Ditchkins [this is what Eagleton gleefully and repeatedly calls Hitchens/Dawkins] understands that.

I listened to this argument at least five times and at the end still had absolutely no idea what the hell Eagleton was talking about. I thought at first he might be saying that faith does not require certainty, but then again nobody who wanted to say that would bother with all that extra verbiage. Anyway this is the kind of stuff that permeates Eagleton’s work: a lot of masturbatory semantics and naked goalpost-moving buried in great gnarled masses of old-world sneering and unnecessary syllables.

Eagelton’s main idea, the one trumpeted by Fish in the Times, is an even sillier piece of syllogistic sophistry than his “God isn’t like the Yeti! We’d be able to see a Yeti!” trick. The basic premise goes something like this:

Reason dismisses faith because faith lacks the certainty of knowledge.

But, reason alone has been proven to be completely inadequate to solve the problems of the world, and has proven especially feeble at providing man with the answers to his questions about the nature of existence.

Therefore, reason was wrong about faith.

The whole premise recalls Woody Allen’s famous syllogism: “Socrates is a man. All men are mortal. Therefore, all men are Socrates.” And…well, I’m not going to get into this too much, because taking an axe to some soggy old Catholic academic is beginning to feel wrong somehow. But something tells me we’re going to be hearing more of this rhetoric, if for no other reason that whenever money gets tight and the times get nervous even intellectuals will suddenly start talking about God. You see this same phenomenon played out on a more crude level in Southern fundamentalism, where the megachurches are smart enough to send their missionaries to rehab centers and prisons and everywhere else you find people stumbling, confused, and vulnerable to a soul-snatching out of their various existential car wrecks — and now that 21st century capitalism has hit the wall and yuppies everywhere are flying through the windshield into debt and foreclosure, the God-hawkers will show up here, too, to argue that where materialism and science have let your postmodern liberal self down, religion comes ready with answers.

Fish/Eagleton spell out the failures of science and materialism as follows:

Science, says Eagleton, “does not start far back enough”; it can run its operations, but it can’t tell you what they ultimately mean or provide a corrective to its own excesses. Likewise, reason is “too skin deep a creed to tackle what is at stake”; its laws — the laws of entailment and evidence — cannot get going without some substantive proposition from which they proceed but which they cannot contain; reason is a non-starter in the absence of an a priori specification of what is real and important, and where is that going to come from? Only from some kind of faith.

First of all, why is that no professor alive can make it ten feet from his front door without sticking an a priori into a sentence? Is there some kind of subterranean lair where academics are beaten with whips and clubs until they learn to write alliterative book titles (”Pus, Primates, and Pessimism: Jane Goodall’s Descent into Septic Shock”) and lard up perfectly good sentences with epistemological catch-phrases? Weird. As for the actual argument, it’s the same old stuff religious apologists have been croaking out since the days of Bertrand Russell — namely that because science is inadequate to explain the mysteries of existence, faith must be necessary. Life would be meaningless without religion, therefore we must have religion.

But this sort of thinking is exactly what most agnostics find ridiculous about religion and religious people, who seem incapable of looking at the world unless it’s through the prism of some kind of belief system. They seem to think that if one doesn’t believe in God, one must believe in something else, because to live without answers would be intolerable. And maybe that’s true of the humorless Richard Dawkins, who does seem actually to have tried to turn atheism into a kind of religion unto itself. But there are plenty of other people who are simply comfortable not knowing the answers. It always seemed weird to me that this quality of not needing an explanation and just being cool with what few answers we have  inspires such verbose indignation in people like Eagleton and Fish. They seem determined to prove that the quality of not believing in heaven and hell and burning bushes and saints is a rigid dogma all unto itself, as though it required a concerted intellectual effort to disbelieve in a God who thinks gays (Leviticus 20:13) or people who work on Sunday (Exodus 35:2) should be put to death. They’ll tie themselves into knots arguing this, and they’ll probably never stop. It’s really strange.

Matt Taibbi is a writer for Rolling Stone.
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Guess it's their fault then
Posted by: kedikat on May 9, 2009 1:27 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Considering that a large majority of Americans say they are christians, and many of other faiths, then the terrible state of affairs that the fellow says exist, must likely be their doing.

One nation under god. Well if the religious folks are so unhappy with the state of it, I guess god and they themselves have let the nation and society down.

But then how does the fellow know things are so bad? He seems to take reality as meaningless. I think all his worries are just yeti of his troubled mind. His own logic should let him be happy in just believing things are as he wishes they were. There is no real proof that they are not, or are, or just all in the minds eye of the great yeti.

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banality also gives headaches
Posted by: rieux on May 9, 2009 2:11 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"personal attacks on our writers or readers"

I just find it somewhat ludicrous that the top "rule" in your discussion forum is "no personal" attacks and yet 4 lines into this article/commentary/whatever you want to call it, the author is personally insulting his intended target rather that discussing the issue at hand.

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» yep Posted by: Beck
» RE: yep Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: yep Posted by: edgar_michel
» RE: yep Posted by: 4changenow
» RE: banality also gives headaches Posted by: edgar_michel

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Re: Life would be meaningless without religion, therefore we must have religion
Posted by: chance garden on May 9, 2009 2:40 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Life, that is, this earthly life, is meaningless even WITH religion...Even if there is a diety how does THAT change anything? You are still going to die and NEVER come back again...
...besides there's nothing really wrong with meaninglessness anyway, actually there is a lot of LIBERTY in the fact that life has no meaning for if there was meaning to life, we would be FORCED to accept THAT and thus have no freedom of our own.
...GOD is simply another name for SLAVERY OF MIND and really what would be the point of eternal life anyway? What, do you honestly think that we are all going to just float around in some nether space and worship GOD ad infinitum, ad nauseam? I don't know about you but after 100 years or so of this it's got to get pretty boring...What would be the point of living forever?
...I think the real problem is that humans have somehow forgotten that they are really ONLY biological animals exactly like other animals, cats, dogs, birds, etc, etc...
...We only THINK we are different and somehow believe we have fewer limitations than baboons, or believe we are ENTITLED to live forever through the grace of the gods of your choosing...

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» Life has no point? Posted by: NYmediator
» RE: Life has no point? Posted by: sasquuatch55

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"Could do better"
Posted by: pieandpeas on May 9, 2009 3:06 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You do a good job of trashing a number of arguments from faith - there is nothing new here but that's forgivable, you have to make a living somehow. I find myself wondering, though, why you bother. There are innumerable examples of ill-conceived, illogical arguments which prevail in the public consciousness that you could have attacked. Instead, you choose to point your kleig lights on some that were quite happy to rest in obscurity, where they belong.
You make this very point for me in your reference to Bertrand Russell.
I rarely read one of your articles without discovering some delicious morsel of humor to savour - here it was, "[Prof. Fish]..seems to have been raised by indulgent aunts who gave him sweets every time he corrected the grammar of other children". Nice one!
But, please, try to be more discriminating; there's no need to side-swipe Richard Dawkins - especially to do so by innuendo - without offering any supporting evidence for your opinion. If you really think he argues for the replacement of God-based religion by some set of secular rituals, you have either mis-read him or, more likely, not read much of him at all. Maybe you just couldn't avoid one too many attempts at humour. I suggest repeating the mantra, "edit, edit, edit..." - I think you'll find this will help you to avoid being hoist by your own petard:
Who is really masturbating here?

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can somebody please provide the link to the (YouTube?) video of scientists
Posted by: Suzon on May 9, 2009 3:20 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
finding Darwin's likeness in a bagel or somesuch?

Humans can describe God (assuming there is a creator) about as well as dogs can describe us.

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» You do dogs a disservice Posted by: Philip Newton

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Take what you need and leave the rest
Posted by: weathered on May 9, 2009 3:32 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Taibbi.

Ultimately matters of God are personal and private beliefs best left to a spiritual intelligence that still eludes you.

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Observer
Posted by: thisizrob on May 9, 2009 3:39 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Although I do believe in Faith in God, THE Creator, I can see where this author is coming from. He has a very strong argument for his point of view. Religionists do have the very adept stance of jumping from one foot to the other when something is pointed out to them from "their" Scriptures.

I could be wrong, and that wouldn't be unusual, but in my thinking, there has been set down in the Bible a standard by which we humans have been given direction for life. Its called, The Ten Commandments, something that everyone including atheists AND the supposedly God believers do not want to accept. Atheists i can appreciate their reason for not accepting them as they refer to a Creator God. The God "believers" have done a good job of emasculating some of those commandments for their own devious reasons. I think the Atheists have every reason to demand an account from those who would claim they "follow" the Bible. It is either follow it fully or get the heck out of the way of those who want reality religion and are asking questions but not getting proper straight answers.
One up for the Atheists. One down for the religionists.

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» RE: Observer Posted by: kungfuma
» Atheists should not be excused Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Observer Posted by: luzmejor

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Only God can resurrect your portfolio
Posted by: NYmediator on May 9, 2009 4:55 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ergo Taibbi: "But something tells me we’re going to be hearing more of this rhetoric, if for no other reason that whenever money gets tight and the times get nervous even intellectuals will suddenly start talking about God."

Eagleton fails to realize that reason fails in our world precisely because it runs up against religion, which, since it has been used to obtain compliance among the masses for centuries, possesses most of the weaponry of control. And since megalomaniacs, like scum, generally rise to the top, attempts at 'socialism' in Russia and China and other places were doomed from the start. True rationality hasn't got a prayer on this planet.

When will humanity evolve? Never.

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» Do you ever make sense? Posted by: NYmediator

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Baldness be my friend
Posted by: geometeer on May 9, 2009 5:13 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is Matt Taibi's description of the R&D quest for a baldness cure as "eternal" based on reason or faith? We know that male pattern baldness can be prevented biochemically (by surgical castration to delete testosterone, or by appropriate genes). It seems likely that we'll learn subtler controls -- soon after which, we'll stop worrying about scalps, and start arguing about teens who go furry instead of clothed. It won't 'cure' my baldness, because being bald isn't an illness, but I look forward to improved people-watching.

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» You're tampering in god's domain! Posted by: NYmediator

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YOUR RIGHTS STOP WHERE MINE BEGIN
Posted by: joeocho88 on May 9, 2009 5:26 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You can worship tree toads for all I care.
LEAVE ME ALONE!
FREEDOM OF RELIGION AND THAT MEANS FOR EVERYBODY AS LONG AS YOUR RELIGIOUS PRACTICES DO NOT INCLUDE FELONIES IS FINE WITH ME.
WHAT IS NOT FINE WITH ME IS WHEN YOU PEOPLE TRY TO CONVERT ME BY FORCE OR GET IN MY FACE AND HIT ME WITH A BIBLE OR WHATEVER YOUR SACRED LITERATURE IS!
THERE IS ONLY ONE CREATOR OF THINGS ANYWAY.
YOU BELIEVE WHAT YOU BELIEVE.
I WILL BELIEVE WHAT I WANT TO BELIEVE.
YOU KEEP YOUR DOGMA TO YOURSELF AND I WILL DO THE SAME.

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credibility
Posted by: CarlosM on May 9, 2009 5:44 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I stopped reading at the insult against Eagleton. Figured the article was all attitude, which I'm not interested in.

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Headache
Posted by: kepstein7777 on May 9, 2009 5:49 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think God, in His infinite wisdom, put Taibbi on this earth to keep people honest, and to amuse His subjects.

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» If that were even remotely true Posted by: weathered

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Better luck next time
Posted by: had-enough on May 9, 2009 5:49 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Matt's one of my favorite writers when he's writing about something he knows about. This time he's just a tedious child.

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» RE: Better luck next time Posted by: VZEQICVA

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Idol Worshippers Give God a Bad name
Posted by: Purple Girl on May 9, 2009 6:01 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's not those who adhere to 'One and Only One' who creat headaches and conflict- it's those idol worshippers of which ever sacred cow they bow down to.
God is a concept with no defining perimeters- to claim there is is not only arrogant, but Blasphemy. God is all that we do not understand nor are able to comprehend. It is the quest of understanding which not only inspires theological scholars, but scientists.The more we learn, the more questions are invoked.
It not those of Us in Awe of the small shards of information which make up the reflection of what constiutes a Godly entity, it's the ones who simplify this extrordinary interplay of the physical and non physical into one convenient package- Jesus, Mohammad...whatever.
Let's be honest 'God' can be defined (and revered) for all the shit we just don't understand yet, if ever.
I won't debate 'god' with anyone- because I don't have enough information to make a logicall deductive agruement. The very disscusion of "it's" existence limits the concept to 'god' as something we can define using what limited ideas we can conceive. Far more complicated than that. shit we only use about 10% of our brains- should we limit 'god' to that miniscule mental abilities. Seems like a grave disservice to 'God' and just further proof of our ignorance.
It is those who either claim some kinship to God (son of God) and those who claim their messiah is the embodiement of 'god' which are the instigators of this arrogant and ignorant debate. If someone was the 'son of God' (or messenger) then he still was not 'god'. If he was the embodiment of 'god' then you have just admitted the person was nothing more than a fleshy vessel- no more relelvant than the Genie's bottle. So isn't worshipping either Heresy?
These self proclaimed heretics love to interchange the concept of their sacred cows with that which we are unable to define or explain. In fact they have had such audacity they dare claim that the words "in God we Trust" proves we are a 'Christian nation'...God is not the Sole property of any religion, and certainly a misrepresentation to obscure the two, to put it mildly.
Am I 'God Fearing' Yes. I have no idea why one person in a group is struck by lightnening and not another. I have no idea why a Tsumani or hurricane wipes out on community but leaves antoher unscathed in the same area. Why a Tornado picks up one house and leaves another. I don't know when or how the first single celled organism came into existence. Nor do I know how or when or If the world will end. so yeah not knowing or at least not undersatnding at this point can invoke some fear- but also awe.so I have faith the shit I'd don't understand or able control will be managed by a higher power than myself- Faith and hope.
We have been given- by a Supreme being or as a result of the actions of nature (I don't know)- a most unique brain, it would be a disservice to either should we fail to utilize it.Not to mention ourselves.

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something to hold your hand
Posted by: frankly1 on May 9, 2009 6:19 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Belief in a god is a imposed illusion to facilitate social control otherwise it would not be indoctrinated into children before thier capacity for critical, deductive reason has had a chance to develop. God simply replaces the parent as the authority figure. It answers no questions (unless you consider "god works in mysterios ways" or "It's god's will - answers) Almost every atrocity in human history has been done with one hand on a bible or a koran. Marx got it right when he said that religion was the opium of the masses because all you who need a god to hold your hand though life must be on something! Live life guided by reason and compassion and respect for all life and invisible masters are not required.

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» Avoiding the central premis Posted by: frankly1
» re:feeding the homeless Posted by: stuarts
» RE: something to hold your hand Posted by: doodahman
» Not so! Posted by: frankly1

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"I just heard about a dumb believer"
Posted by: Beck on May 9, 2009 7:11 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"All believers are identical"

"Therefore, I am smarter than all believers."

(Maybe nothing is more comforting to the insecure person than having a huge group of people to feel superior to. Doesn't matter if you invented it.)

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Lack of nuance
Posted by: sunnywater on May 9, 2009 7:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He so badly wants to be HST.

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» Harry S Truman? Posted by: NYmediator
» RE: Lack of nuance Posted by: Eric Walther

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Some of this is funny
Posted by: sawdust on May 9, 2009 7:33 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And even funnier to find on this web site. The more people attempt to explain the unexplainable, defend the indefensible , rationalize the irrational and justify the incomprehensible, the more they make Matt's point. The less we need of this "God-talk",the more of it appears. It seems to spread like (gasp) swine flu. "Making a religion out of atheism" is an ages-old avocation. Hitchens, Dawkins, Eagleton, Fish, et. al., are just different colored balloons filled with the same hot air. They love to hear the sounds of their own voices. Matt is the only one NOT whistling in the dark in the cemetary.

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So it's like that, is it?
Posted by: doodahman on May 9, 2009 7:54 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Reading these screeds, both for and against "religion" (or faith, or spirituality, or whatever amorphous target is being put into the range finder), I become more convinced that faith and spirituality are mostly like masturbation-- everyone has some relationship with it, but nobody really needs to be talking about it in public.

I'm not about to start making arguments. I'll just say I am certain that God exists, I am certain that prayer has value, and I am certain that over time, this becomes apparent to every soul, in this life time or some thereafter. And I'll also say that I really don't concern myself one iota whether anyone else feels the same way.

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» Amen Posted by: Philip Newton

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Me thinks he protesteth too much
Posted by: Philip Newton on May 9, 2009 8:40 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Matt doesn't like Eagleton's beliefs and wastes not one word in shrieking so.

Sadly Matt, although I find your prose amusing at times, in this piece you just come across like an ignorant asshole.

Sorry, dude. You didn't offer one salient counterpunch to Eagleton's rather interesting theses, and you gave him a lot of free PR with your generous quoting of his work.

Maybe something in there hit a nerve, after all. Your diatribe was a bit punch drunk.

Love you anyway.

Phil

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» There's no intellectual effort Posted by: stormchilde1975
» RE: There's no intellectual effort Posted by: Philip Newton

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observer
Posted by: thisizrob on May 9, 2009 8:47 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Atheist questions the believer for some evidence of his God. Where the problem comes in is that the believer is not sure of his facts, so he falls back on cliques to answer. The Atheist demands evidence, what greater evidence is there than the changed life of a person who has no ability to change his downhill path, comes face to face with his awful situation and screems out to God and says, "GOD IF you are somewhere out there, show yourself to me. Help me out of this mire that i am in and i will serve you for the rest of my life!"

When we check on this miserable person at a later time, we find that they are now a totally changed person. Did they do it by themselves or was there a power outside of themselves that came to their rescue?
The evidence for God can only be measured in the lives changed by their understanding of the LOVE that God has brought this person into contact with. The Gospel of John, chapter 3 and verse 16 says an awful lot about God. It says, "God so loved the world (you and me and everyone else) that He Gave His ONLY Begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting Life".

Well, anyone can believe and jesus said that even the devils believe and tremble, unfortunately, there is no change in their lives so it isn't just belief that counts. God also said that IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments. I could be wrong but I get a very strong message that there is more to this thing than just believing. Maybe, just maybe, what the Atheists are demanding is not unrealistic at all. IF You believe in the Bible and the God of the Bible, then the Atheist has a right to demand that you put your money where your mouth is or at least, show by your actions that God IS and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Be that example of Christ, show the world who your master is, who your emancipator really is. Believe what the Bible says and stop making excuses. Stop cutting bits out as being irrelevant to todays living.
Stop trying to play God, your Atheist friend needs your friendship NOT being beaten around the head with your version of god. there is a statement that comes in fairly well on this one. "Your actions are speaking so loud, I can't hear what you are saying".

The Bible is a book of realistic situations from historical accounts, God claims to be the Author and He sure does not mince matters. First he gives warnings of what happens as a natural course of action when we (or anybody) decides to take the wrong pathway. there are natural results that happen for disobedience and are the working out of what happens through SIN. Throughout the Bible there are recorded stories of the Good, the bad and the Ugly and they are there for us to see just what happens when we go the wrong way. Sometimes God has had to step in because sin has gone too far and by natural course, man would be destroyed by his own stupidity and choice.
God is not willing that ANY should perish and so He works things round to help us grasp onto the fact that HE is in control.

When someone challenged Billy Graham's daughter as to why God allows all this bad stuff to happen, as i see it, she gave the very best of answers. She said, "We have legislated god out of our schools, our society and our lives. We do not want Him having control of us and since He is a Gentleman, He respects our wishes and steps out of the picture." We forget that since it is He who has the control, when He steps back, with Him goes all the protections that he controls. We are left as it were Uncovered and unprotected. the devil, who would have us believe that he does not exist, steps in to the void with his uncontrollable fury and wreaks havoc. Unfortunately, we want to blame God for "OUR" choices and throw up the age old argument, "If God is a God of Love, why does he allow little children to be harrassed by diseases and pain when they are innocent?"

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» RE: LOve is sacrificing your son? Posted by: sasquuatch55
» God has a communication problem Posted by: NYmediator
» What a load of crap. Posted by: thekidde
» RE: observer Posted by: morticia
» If god has a message... Posted by: Karina

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observer
Posted by: thisizrob on May 9, 2009 8:49 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well, we demanded He get out of our lives and now we want the protection without any strings attached. Sorry. there are strings attached and as the Bible says, "Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." You can't sow thistles and get watermelons growing on them. You can not sow evil and get good. God also asks us to be His witnesses but we want to do it all OUR way and then we complain about those nasty Atheists for pointing out our inconsistencies.



One fellow put it quite well when he mentioned about all the religiosity and then he mentions about someone being stoned for not keeping sunday holy or something to that effect.

I can see exactly where this fellow is coming from. We are mixing man made philosophy in with the Bible and that means mongrelisation. To the Atheist this stands out like the proverbial toilet in the middle of the desert. They have every right to question our "faith and belief" when it just does not add up. Maybe those Atheists who see this practice of hyppocrasy really do have a very strong case against us who say we believe in the Bible. Our witness to them has proved to be fundamentally flawed.

IF we are going to live by the Bible, we need to study it often and ask that God's Spirit will lead us into all truth AND THEN LIVE IT instead of trying to beat the Atheists around the head with our half hearted and false beliefs. It is either the Bible and the Bible ONLY or get out of religion altogether. They want answers NOT twaddle. Give them a fair go, they deserve it. Give them real answers, not some fairy tail story, give them the story of your conversion and what Christ means to you and why He means that to you. You will not convert them because that is NOT your job. Your job is to be their friends and pray for them, let God's holy Spirit do any converting, YOU are not qualified to do that. Give them a fair break and do not deride them. They may be the very person that Jesus is calling to a better life. Do NOT be a stumbling block to them as it seems that many have already been as seen by many of the notes written.



By the way, an enemy is someone that you have not yet befriended. Pray for them daily. They are wonderful people who have not yet met a real true blue Christian. Well, that pep talk was for myself. If you find something there that will benefit you, be my guest.

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» RE: Basic philosophical observances. Posted by: sasquuatch55
» RE: observer Posted by: stuarts

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As long as we're reading yet another "Fish" story
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN on May 9, 2009 8:58 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We might as well go back into the genealogy of the Fishies.
The christers have been murderers for a long long time.
You can read about it in their favorite book to thump.
Here's another Fish. Could they be related?

Swimming with the Fishies

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This current Pope is ng
Posted by: weathered on May 9, 2009 8:59 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
John Paul is spinning in his grave.

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» RE: This current Pope is ng Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: This current Pope is ng Posted by: weathered

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That argument you didn't understand
Posted by: leafsong1 on May 9, 2009 9:50 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He was saying that faith is irrational. You missed his point because he was using the irrationality of faith as a support for the rationality of faith. It's a bait and switch: you shoot down one argument, and he brings up the other. Shoot down the other and he goes back to the first. The object is simply to never admit that you are wrong, a tactic to which defenders of faith often resort.

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» RE: That argument you didn't understand Posted by: johnnygorockly
» Seems like a risky tactic... Posted by: leafsong1

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The faith/certainty argument...
Posted by: leafsong1 on May 9, 2009 10:00 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...is based on equivocation. Knowledge is anything we are certain of. Faith is a that subset of knowledge which encompasses those things we are certain of without rational reason. Faith and knowledge are indeed more similar in this way than scientific fact and knowledge. The thing is, no rational person cares about knowledge that isn't also truth. The spinner is equivocating knowledge and truth; that is the bogus part. Obivously, scientific fact is, on average, far closer to truth than faith, even if the only evidence you consider is the vast number of contradictory faiths: they can't all be true.

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FAITH
Posted by: Ahimsa on May 9, 2009 10:49 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is the conviction that something is true because you believe in it.

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"...one must believe in something else, because to live without answers would be intolerable."
Posted by: Sojourner on May 9, 2009 11:16 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As with the usual approaches to the topic of science and religion, Taibbi writes to shock rather than inform.

He ridicules the notion of the "unseen." The excessive dependence of our Western conceptualizations on sight is not debatable. The renowned French authority on perception, Merleau-Ponty, wrote and published his work "The Visible and the Invisible" 50 years ago. It's now already a classic, yet Taibbi writes as if it never happened.

The failures of science and reason are not debatable. True, it does not follow that religious answers are then acceptable. Nor is it acceptable to presume that faith and reason have nothing in common, as Taibbi suggests.

I grant that it is not necessary for survival to ask the religious question "Why are we here?" However, since we all know we shall die someday, don't hold it against us that some of us insist on asking that question--despite the "Ditchens" dismissal of "why" questions.

And those who stopped asking a long time ago might be surprised at the replies (not answers, for religion that is open-ended) to be found in responsible inquiries, unlike Taibbi's.

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» "We have created it all"? Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: "We have created it all"? Posted by: factbased

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A moving spirit.
Posted by: Sinibaldi on May 9, 2009 11:53 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There's a
moving and
delicate spirit
here, in my
mind, like
a pretty desire
in the light
of a young
dove.

Francesco Sinibaldi

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"This is the start of what is meant to be"
Posted by: Scalpel on May 9, 2009 6:17 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My patience with either side of this "debate" grows a little thinner with each salvo that gets fired. I am reminded of Carl Jung's observation of that, during the Cold War, the West was really only arguing with itself when it came to containing the Communist menace. It strikes me that the Christian right and the loudmouth rationalists are doing much the same here...as if they are the only ones with the right to hold the conversation.

This is all about who gets to rule the hearts and minds of the majority. Of that I am certain. Whoever controls the gates to the other side of existence gets to run the world. The Christian right does it by making themselves the sole road into whatever lies beyond. The rationalists and atheists do it by denying the gates even exist. They essentially want to become captain of the Titanic after it's hit the iceberg.

What we're seeing here is the crackup of a paradigm that defined the 20th century. Both sides have seen the end of their little game of dominance with offstage players being the winners. Yet they fight on, for they know nothing else. When the final nail of the 20th century is hammered into the wood in the next few years, this little debate will be as meaningful as other great debates of times past. It's time for something new. The sooner people wake up to this, the better.

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» Bull Posted by: factbased
» Actually... Posted by: Scalpel
» RE: Actually... Posted by: factbased
» **Sigh** Posted by: Scalpel
» RE: **Sigh** - my sympathies Posted by: stellabloo
» RE: **Sigh** - my sympathies Posted by: factbased
» RE: **Sigh** Posted by: factbased

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Interesting...
Posted by: johnnygorockly on May 9, 2009 9:08 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...that no one has pointed out that while Ealgleton was raised Catholic, he is attacking the "Ditchkins" as an atheist. Pithy point, I know, but still...

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FREEDOM.....AH, HOW SWEET IT IS...
Posted by: SassyFrassy on May 9, 2009 10:03 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
HERE IS WHAT STALIN SAID ABOUT AMERICA....

note here---"America, is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold: its patriotism, its morality, and its spiritual life. If we can undermine these three areas, America will collapse from within." ... Joseph Stalin

I THINK ravel from wikipedia said it best:

The democracies that will surely perish will be those who cannot tell the difference between good and evil, survival and ruin, freedom and tyranny. Or, perhaps more to the point, the greatest danger faced by democracy are those who deny that there is any real difference after all.

IT'S important to protect all our freedoms and constitutions...

see American center for law and justice & stoptheaclu.com & focusonthefamily & familysecuritymatters.org

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» Phony quote Posted by: ReallyBearish

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Say what you want about God but he's MAD AS HELL AND POUNDING US WITH MORE SUFFERING.
Posted by: maxpayne on May 10, 2009 4:52 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And I blame it all on society's ignorance, intolerance, greed, etc ...

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Piecing the bits together
Posted by: richard0a37 on May 10, 2009 4:58 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Reading this article reminds me that back in the 60s, I would occasionally hand my smoker friends (and I didn’t have any non-smoking friends) a fresh pack of 20 Piccadilly cigarettes and tell them they can have them if they can correctly count the number of the letter f that appear in the descriptive blurb on the back of the pack.

Well, no one ever got the right number; they always missed at least the two ‘f’s in the word ‘of’.

Reading from bottom to top solved that kind of problem.

Many people have difficulty reading. I know of one guy in particular who boasts almost, that every time he reads the same book, he discovers something he’d previously missed. I wondered why he didn’t absorb all the information in one reading. One reason may be that certain words have a heavy emotional undercurrent, and when such a word is encountered, it throws the reader’s concentration causing them not only to forget what they’d just read, but also to lose the logic contained in the present and the sentences they’ve still yet to read.

Once I’d cottoned on to this, I began taking note of any word that for me caused my mind to suddenly begin wandering without any apparent reason. Now, 40 years on, unless what I’m reading is extremely technical or mathematical, I rarely if ever need to return to the same paragraphs.

Applying reverse logic to major historical events tells us that nothing that happens does so purely by chance or coincidence. For example, Christianity could not have come about unless some one came back to life after dying. Therefore Christ had to be crucified in order that he could come back to life again.

In order for him to be crucified, someone had to betray him, and so on. Thus, all these events needed to be planned and orchestrated.

We now know that the Bible is perfectly clear that Mankind existed long before Adam and Eve came into the picture, but the perception was always that they were the first two people on the planet.

It seems likely therefore (and that’s because I can no longer be bothered to read it) that nowhere in the Bible is it explicitly stated that Christ did actually cease living, did actually die, on the cross, but he may well have passed out sufficiently for people to incorrectly draw the conclusion that he was medically and clinically dead.

Thus the creators of Christianity staged a big drama which they were able to get away with because people don’t know how to read, and that they are consequently too quick to come to the wrong conclusions.

The war in Afghanistan started on 7th October 2001, less than 1 month after 911. I remember George W Bush standing in front of Congress during his State of the Union speech on 20th Sep in which he said ‘we’re gonna get that Bin Laden’ .

Really! In less than 1 month, all the US plus those of the coalition forces amounting to several hundred thousand troops, vehicles, food and the whole gambit of backup and support could be deployed in less that a month?

It took months for first George Bush to amass the troops in 1991 when Saddam invaded Kuwait on 2nd August 1990. I remember sitting on the beach in Spain a month later in September looking at the front of the Sunday Times newspaper. Desert Storm began 16 January 1991 while I was visiting relatives in Oregon.

As we now know, the invasions of Afghanistan in 2001 was a ‘must happen’ event which could not have taken place in such a timely and seemingly innocent way without 911. Christianity could never have existed without someone rising from the dead; likewise, Afghanistan could never have happened without 911.

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» RE: Piecing the bits together Posted by: richard0a37

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Some things will never change
Posted by: willymack on May 10, 2009 12:56 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Some people are left-handed, most not. Some people are gay, most not. Some people have blue eyes, most not. Some people are atheists, most (claim to be) not. In my mind:
There will NEVER be a common ground between believers and REALISTS.
It's useless to try to achieve one.
The only way to any meaningful progress is to try to prevent the believers from taking over our lives, while steadily working toward a truly educated society, free of the influence of superstitious stupidity.

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Evidence of religion being fabricated?
Posted by: Wells on May 10, 2009 7:32 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm wondering how Terry Eagleton arrived at the translation: “Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen.”

I've always read the verse as: "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of that which is unseen" -- entirely different meanings.

How did "substance" become "assurance" and "evidence" become "conviction".

Is this an example of religion being fabricated?

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Rotten to the core....
Posted by: richard0a37 on May 10, 2009 11:57 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The fact of the matter is we live in an insane world. There is no real point to life. It is a phenomenon, just like electromagnetic radiation or the division of matter into its constituent fundamental particles.

The presence of a ‘belief system’ in our lives is itself an anachronism. Why is it that people are confronted with having to either believe or disbelieve in something in the first place?

Virtually from the day we are born, the society as a whole begins moulding the way we are supposed to think by presenting us with a set of circumstances that are irrational, illogical and downright misleading. These are:

• A long time ago, someone who was born in a region that has been forever blighted by armed conflict and which is today heavily embroiled in ongoing conflict with its nearest neighbours died and came back to life again
• The same person was apparently born of a virgin mother supposedly of royal and regal descent
• This is supposed to be relevant to our lives, when in fact they are as relevant as the current wave of suicide bombings and the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Under normal circumstances, every one of the 6 billion human beings alive today will eventually die and not come back to life again. Similarly, every one of the same human beings was conceived in the usual fashion, and none of us had a mother who was a virgin.

But if you can get people to believe in impossible situations, then it is but a small step to get them to believe in God.

However, it is also true that all primitive tribes carried, and still continue to carry inside themselves some kind of a belief system that venerates a supreme and mystical beginning to life, but it is also true that all deities did originally start out as real people who did eventually die, but whose reputations grew over the generations until they assumed the characteristics of Gods.

Personally, I find the Christian religion rather nauseating, as if our natural state of mind is to suffer and to atone for our ‘sins’ – i.e. Jesus died on the cross to save us.

The trouble is – young children are fed this stuff from day one virtually, and if it’s delivered by harsh, stern, unforgiving parents, it becomes devilishly difficult for the child to separate itself, for to reject the religion might also entail rejecting the parents as moronic imbeciles who may also be capable of extreme emotional cruelty if their children don’t subscribe to the same crackpot belief system.

In the mind of child, s/he will see its parent’s belief system as a cover up for their empty and meaningless lives that are devoid of any pleasure and enjoyment, parents who are wracked with guilt over sex in particular. It is not made any easier for the child who discovers that the school system is similarly inflicted and affected with the same negativity.

And of course, there is the political system that likes to use the word God as often as possible, especially when God is required to be on our side for the next war.

The very first comment of this article espouses – one nation under God, and this just about sums it up. How about one planet under God? Religion divides and separates, and it is extremely partisan and partial – if you don’t believe in my particular God, then you are not one of us. I have created an enemy for you to hate, now you must concur with my hatred and believe in the same God as me.

The whole presentation of religion is misguided, misleading, deliberately so, Western styled Christianity is a hocus-pocus designed to deliberately distort children’s perceptions and get them to grow up believing in things that can’t possibly be true.

Without doubt, religion was invented by unscrupulous people who had lots of evil little things festering in their minds.

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On the ubiquitous mobile phone ...
Posted by: richard0a37 on May 11, 2009 12:33 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is the purpose and meaning of life? What is the purpose and meaning of electromagnetic radiation? What is the purpose and meaning of the meson or the neutrino or the proton?

We nearly all of us carry with us a handheld mobile phone. It is a brilliant little device, and like Adam and Eve, all its constituent parts originally came out of the ground. According to the Book of Genesis, Mankind was created on the 6th day, but it took getting on for a hundred years or so from the time Thompson discovered the electron in 1894 to design, manufacture and market the modern day mobile phone.

But do I hear anyone questioning the meaning and purpose of such an ingenious piece of high tech magic? Do people ever stop to wonder how such a device came into being in the first place? And how on earth does the mobile phone always find its target. If I want to leave my house, I have to walk in the direction of the front door, and I also have to know where the front door is.

But not the mobile phone. It seems to know exactly where every other phone is, and doesn’t anyone else find this incredibly strange.

Hang on a minute. I have studied physics, I have studied satellite communication and telephony. Good grief, it doesn’t happen by magic, but it does happen according to the laws of physics and the properties of matter and energy.

At least, I know the answers well enough to say with 100% confidence, the appearance of the mobile phone in our lives did not require the intervention of a supreme being in order for it to come about.

In the absence of any religious belief system, we could have the same attitude towards life in general and ourselves in particular as we do to the mobile phone and all the other gadgets that we take for granted. Unfortunately, for some people, believing in God carries with it a life and death sense of urgency, as if their whole lives rest on maintaining this belief. Most people couldn’t give a toss how the mobile phone got here, it is here and we take advantage of the invention.

Light is the most mysterious of phenomena, yet we don’t have people ‘believing’ or ‘disbelieving’ in light or going around knocking on people’s doors clutching their ‘Light’ books begging people to believe in light or to ‘see’ the light.

Existence is governed by 4 forces – strong nuclear, weak nuclear, electromagnetic and gravity. Yet we don’t have people asking themselves – why 4 forces, as if knowing the answer would help us understand anything better than before. Of course, someone might one day invent a religion which gets you to believe in 5 forces, except you can’t tell the 5th force is there. It never reveals its presence and it doesn’t have any observable properties, but we know it’s there.

In fact, there are some physicists who have postulated the existence of a 5th force – the torsion field, but any progress made on discovering it will not be driven by belief, but by hard, empirical data and observation and investigation.

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Perhaps the Sun is conscious
Posted by: gregasola on May 11, 2009 7:33 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Perhaps the ancient Sumerians, Chaldeans, Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Celts, Maya, Inca, Aztec, and the Hindus are right to regard Sun as a living being?
Perhaps the Christians got this one wrong.
How have we bought into some invisible and mysterious god of light, when the Sun is beaming light down at us day in and day out – providing the basis for all life on the planet?
It’s time to bring the Sun back in from the cold, and I do so in my just-released book Sun of gOd. Find out more at linked text

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» RE: Perhaps the Sun is conscious Posted by: richard0a37

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They can keep giving Matt Taibbi a headache
Posted by: Eddie Van Helsing on May 11, 2009 8:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just don't hear them; I'm one of those horrible people who uses modern technology to isolate himself from human stupidity.

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Believers and non-believers
Posted by: LeeAnnG on May 12, 2009 1:31 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One of the big differences between believers and non-believers is that, although non-believers often have a tendency to make fun of True Believers, they don't believe that religious belief is INHERENTLY evil. They might believe that religion - or more precisely, fundamentalist religion - has caused more harm than good in the world, but they most certainly do not believe that religious people will be punished, eternally or otherwise, simply for their faith.

On the other hand, many religious people do believe that those without faith are inherently evil. In fact, they quite often believe that people are born in sin and that it's only through devine salvation (usually achieved through grotesque suffering) that we can be redeemed. (I find it absurd to think that a God who is all-powerful would create such flawed creatures, but that's just me.)

I am, perhaps, overly steeped in rationality, but there is far too much in religion that is illogical and contradictory for me. Even so, I neither believe that this illogic will bring eternal suffering to the believers, nor do I wish it upon them. The god of the Christians has always seemed to me to be a pretty nasty piece of work, what with sacrificing his most beloved son in order to exact suffering as the price for his forgiveness and all that punitive ugliness.

I once asked a Christian friend how god can be omnipotent, omniscient, and all loving at the same time. After all, if god is all powerful (omnipotent), he can make anything happen. If he is all knowing, he understands everything that is going on. And if he is all loving, he wants only the very best for his children. But it's pretty much impossible for god to be more than two of these at the same time. The only analogy to god's love I can imagine is the love parents have for their children, and (if god really is a supreme being) that love pales in comparison. Yet we humans have the capacity for nearly unconditional love for our children. What parent would willingly allow a child to suffer the horrors of hell for eternity for absolutely no other reason than punishment? Since there is no redemption once that decision is made, the point is not to rehabilitate, so it's almost purely revenge. According to one Christian family member, some Christians actually do believe that people go to hell for eternal damnation simply for a lack of faith. Is that all loving? I don't think so.

Anyway, the apparent Christian answer to this omnipotent/omniscient/all loving problem is FREE WILL! As if free will accounts for birth defects, cancer, accidental deaths of babies, natural disasters, and other horrors.

Religion is a comfort to many people for many reasons, but it is most definitely not logical or rational. For some it brings great joy, a feeling of connection, and peace. For many others, faith is born of fear. I have a friend who said she believes in the Bible because she is afraid not to. But her god is "all loving"!

None of it makes sense, so it might just be necessary for the fundamentalists among us to attempt to ensure that everyone believes what they do. That way, there is little room for doubt and the dogma does not seem quite so absurd.

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» RE: Believers and non-believers Posted by: richard0a37

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How is it faith?
Posted by: beastfan on May 15, 2009 7:36 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
when we are told that we will burn in hell for not accepting Christ, or that God will unleash his anger upon us for our un-Christian behaviour, such as treatings gays as humans, or not murdering a shopkeeper because he opened his store on Sunday?

how is that faith? That sounds like a threat to me. Is faith supposed to be like a gun to your head?

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» RE: How is it faith? Posted by: bigpic
» RE: How is it faith? Posted by: I shine not burn

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The difference between kneeling down and bending over.
Posted by: TFYQA on May 16, 2009 9:18 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"The three monotheisms, animated by the same genealogical death instinct, share a series of identical contempt: hatred of reason and intelligence; hatred of freedom; hatred of all books in the name the one & only; hatred of life; hatred of sexuality, of women and pleasure; hatred of feminity; hatred of the body, of desires & impulses. Instead of all that, Judaism, Christianity and Islam defend: faith and belief, obedience and submission, a taste for death and a passion for the beyond, asexual angel and chastity, virginity and monogamic fidelity, the wife and the mother, the soul and spirit. In other words, life crucified and celebrated nothingness" – Michel Onfray

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» On the other hand....... Posted by: richard0a37

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The moment of truth is at hand
Posted by: richard0a37 on May 17, 2009 12:45 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The moment of truth is at hand

OK! We have heard all the arguments from the prosecution, the defence and the in between ones. It is now time to hear the verdict.

First of all, I’d like to thank Matt Taibi for raising the issue – which is does God exist, or is it all a carefully crafted fraud, just like the so called science of alchemy.

I hereby call upon God - give us irrefutable proof of your existence.

And if he has not given us irrefutable proof of his existence by this time next week i.e Sun 24th May at 8.00 am, all believers and institutions that peddle the stuff must from that moment on SHUT THE FUCK UP and allow the rest of us to get on with our lives in any way we choose to live them.

Religion has had over 60 years to convince me that they have a case, but it has turned out to be as bogus as the evening I played a shepherd in the nativity play in my infants school.

It was total crap then.

It is total crap now.

So what might constitute irrefutable proof of his existence?

Well, for starters, he could make some female pregnant, though I think she might find it difficult to convince the gynaecologist that she didn’t have sex with some guy or artificial insemination.

He could bring someone back to life again, but convincing anyone of that will I think also be fraught with considerable doubt and uncertainty.

He could perform a miracle. For example, he could stage an event that violates the laws of physics.

Hang on a minute. That one was already done when 3 massive buildings each came tumbling down in under 10 seconds which as we all know, was orchestrated and masterminded by a bearded gentleman from a cave in Afghanistan.

What else could give us the proof we need?

Ah, I’ve got it. Next Saturday night, two really beautiful and well stacked women – preferably from Ghana and in their late 20s but I’m not that fussy, must come knocking on my door and ask me if they can stay the night cos they’ve no where else to go.

Come Sunday morning, I will KNOW that God exists and I can tell everyone.

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Geeesh, live and let live.
Posted by: bigpic on May 18, 2009 8:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is just slop bucket stuff. The ability to insult people does not on its own provide for any credibility. I can't believe Alternet wasted cyberspace with this hateful stuff.

If you don't want to believe, don't. But don't name call those who choose to believe. We aren't all the "religious right" you know...oh maybe you don't know that.

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» RE: Geeesh, live and let live. Posted by: richard0a37
Alternet Comments:

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Guess it's their fault then
Posted by: kedikat on May 9, 2009 1:27 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Considering that a large majority of Americans say they are christians, and many of other faiths, then the terrible state of affairs that the fellow says exist, must likely be their doing.

One nation under god. Well if the religious folks are so unhappy with the state of it, I guess god and they themselves have let the nation and society down.

But then how does the fellow know things are so bad? He seems to take reality as meaningless. I think all his worries are just yeti of his troubled mind. His own logic should let him be happy in just believing things are as he wishes they were. There is no real proof that they are not, or are, or just all in the minds eye of the great yeti.

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banality also gives headaches
Posted by: rieux on May 9, 2009 2:11 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"personal attacks on our writers or readers"

I just find it somewhat ludicrous that the top "rule" in your discussion forum is "no personal" attacks and yet 4 lines into this article/commentary/whatever you want to call it, the author is personally insulting his intended target rather that discussing the issue at hand.

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» yep Posted by: Beck
» RE: yep Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: yep Posted by: edgar_michel
» RE: yep Posted by: 4changenow
» RE: banality also gives headaches Posted by: edgar_michel

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Re: Life would be meaningless without religion, therefore we must have religion
Posted by: chance garden on May 9, 2009 2:40 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Life, that is, this earthly life, is meaningless even WITH religion...Even if there is a diety how does THAT change anything? You are still going to die and NEVER come back again...
...besides there's nothing really wrong with meaninglessness anyway, actually there is a lot of LIBERTY in the fact that life has no meaning for if there was meaning to life, we would be FORCED to accept THAT and thus have no freedom of our own.
...GOD is simply another name for SLAVERY OF MIND and really what would be the point of eternal life anyway? What, do you honestly think that we are all going to just float around in some nether space and worship GOD ad infinitum, ad nauseam? I don't know about you but after 100 years or so of this it's got to get pretty boring...What would be the point of living forever?
...I think the real problem is that humans have somehow forgotten that they are really ONLY biological animals exactly like other animals, cats, dogs, birds, etc, etc...
...We only THINK we are different and somehow believe we have fewer limitations than baboons, or believe we are ENTITLED to live forever through the grace of the gods of your choosing...

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» Life has no point? Posted by: NYmediator
» RE: Life has no point? Posted by: sasquuatch55

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"Could do better"
Posted by: pieandpeas on May 9, 2009 3:06 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You do a good job of trashing a number of arguments from faith - there is nothing new here but that's forgivable, you have to make a living somehow. I find myself wondering, though, why you bother. There are innumerable examples of ill-conceived, illogical arguments which prevail in the public consciousness that you could have attacked. Instead, you choose to point your kleig lights on some that were quite happy to rest in obscurity, where they belong.
You make this very point for me in your reference to Bertrand Russell.
I rarely read one of your articles without discovering some delicious morsel of humor to savour - here it was, "[Prof. Fish]..seems to have been raised by indulgent aunts who gave him sweets every time he corrected the grammar of other children". Nice one!
But, please, try to be more discriminating; there's no need to side-swipe Richard Dawkins - especially to do so by innuendo - without offering any supporting evidence for your opinion. If you really think he argues for the replacement of God-based religion by some set of secular rituals, you have either mis-read him or, more likely, not read much of him at all. Maybe you just couldn't avoid one too many attempts at humour. I suggest repeating the mantra, "edit, edit, edit..." - I think you'll find this will help you to avoid being hoist by your own petard:
Who is really masturbating here?

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can somebody please provide the link to the (YouTube?) video of scientists
Posted by: Suzon on May 9, 2009 3:20 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
finding Darwin's likeness in a bagel or somesuch?

Humans can describe God (assuming there is a creator) about as well as dogs can describe us.

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» You do dogs a disservice Posted by: Philip Newton

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Take what you need and leave the rest
Posted by: weathered on May 9, 2009 3:32 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Taibbi.

Ultimately matters of God are personal and private beliefs best left to a spiritual intelligence that still eludes you.

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Observer
Posted by: thisizrob on May 9, 2009 3:39 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Although I do believe in Faith in God, THE Creator, I can see where this author is coming from. He has a very strong argument for his point of view. Religionists do have the very adept stance of jumping from one foot to the other when something is pointed out to them from "their" Scriptures.

I could be wrong, and that wouldn't be unusual, but in my thinking, there has been set down in the Bible a standard by which we humans have been given direction for life. Its called, The Ten Commandments, something that everyone including atheists AND the supposedly God believers do not want to accept. Atheists i can appreciate their reason for not accepting them as they refer to a Creator God. The God "believers" have done a good job of emasculating some of those commandments for their own devious reasons. I think the Atheists have every reason to demand an account from those who would claim they "follow" the Bible. It is either follow it fully or get the heck out of the way of those who want reality religion and are asking questions but not getting proper straight answers.
One up for the Atheists. One down for the religionists.

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» RE: Observer Posted by: kungfuma
» Atheists should not be excused Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Observer Posted by: luzmejor

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Only God can resurrect your portfolio
Posted by: NYmediator on May 9, 2009 4:55 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ergo Taibbi: "But something tells me we’re going to be hearing more of this rhetoric, if for no other reason that whenever money gets tight and the times get nervous even intellectuals will suddenly start talking about God."

Eagleton fails to realize that reason fails in our world precisely because it runs up against religion, which, since it has been used to obtain compliance among the masses for centuries, possesses most of the weaponry of control. And since megalomaniacs, like scum, generally rise to the top, attempts at 'socialism' in Russia and China and other places were doomed from the start. True rationality hasn't got a prayer on this planet.

When will humanity evolve? Never.

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» Do you ever make sense? Posted by: NYmediator

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Baldness be my friend
Posted by: geometeer on May 9, 2009 5:13 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is Matt Taibi's description of the R&D quest for a baldness cure as "eternal" based on reason or faith? We know that male pattern baldness can be prevented biochemically (by surgical castration to delete testosterone, or by appropriate genes). It seems likely that we'll learn subtler controls -- soon after which, we'll stop worrying about scalps, and start arguing about teens who go furry instead of clothed. It won't 'cure' my baldness, because being bald isn't an illness, but I look forward to improved people-watching.

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» You're tampering in god's domain! Posted by: NYmediator

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YOUR RIGHTS STOP WHERE MINE BEGIN
Posted by: joeocho88 on May 9, 2009 5:26 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You can worship tree toads for all I care.
LEAVE ME ALONE!
FREEDOM OF RELIGION AND THAT MEANS FOR EVERYBODY AS LONG AS YOUR RELIGIOUS PRACTICES DO NOT INCLUDE FELONIES IS FINE WITH ME.
WHAT IS NOT FINE WITH ME IS WHEN YOU PEOPLE TRY TO CONVERT ME BY FORCE OR GET IN MY FACE AND HIT ME WITH A BIBLE OR WHATEVER YOUR SACRED LITERATURE IS!
THERE IS ONLY ONE CREATOR OF THINGS ANYWAY.
YOU BELIEVE WHAT YOU BELIEVE.
I WILL BELIEVE WHAT I WANT TO BELIEVE.
YOU KEEP YOUR DOGMA TO YOURSELF AND I WILL DO THE SAME.

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credibility
Posted by: CarlosM on May 9, 2009 5:44 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I stopped reading at the insult against Eagleton. Figured the article was all attitude, which I'm not interested in.

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Headache
Posted by: kepstein7777 on May 9, 2009 5:49 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think God, in His infinite wisdom, put Taibbi on this earth to keep people honest, and to amuse His subjects.

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» If that were even remotely true Posted by: weathered

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Better luck next time
Posted by: had-enough on May 9, 2009 5:49 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Matt's one of my favorite writers when he's writing about something he knows about. This time he's just a tedious child.

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» RE: Better luck next time Posted by: VZEQICVA

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Idol Worshippers Give God a Bad name
Posted by: Purple Girl on May 9, 2009 6:01 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's not those who adhere to 'One and Only One' who creat headaches and conflict- it's those idol worshippers of which ever sacred cow they bow down to.
God is a concept with no defining perimeters- to claim there is is not only arrogant, but Blasphemy. God is all that we do not understand nor are able to comprehend. It is the quest of understanding which not only inspires theological scholars, but scientists.The more we learn, the more questions are invoked.
It not those of Us in Awe of the small shards of information which make up the reflection of what constiutes a Godly entity, it's the ones who simplify this extrordinary interplay of the physical and non physical into one convenient package- Jesus, Mohammad...whatever.
Let's be honest 'God' can be defined (and revered) for all the shit we just don't understand yet, if ever.
I won't debate 'god' with anyone- because I don't have enough information to make a logicall deductive agruement. The very disscusion of "it's" existence limits the concept to 'god' as something we can define using what limited ideas we can conceive. Far more complicated than that. shit we only use about 10% of our brains- should we limit 'god' to that miniscule mental abilities. Seems like a grave disservice to 'God' and just further proof of our ignorance.
It is those who either claim some kinship to God (son of God) and those who claim their messiah is the embodiement of 'god' which are the instigators of this arrogant and ignorant debate. If someone was the 'son of God' (or messenger) then he still was not 'god'. If he was the embodiment of 'god' then you have just admitted the person was nothing more than a fleshy vessel- no more relelvant than the Genie's bottle. So isn't worshipping either Heresy?
These self proclaimed heretics love to interchange the concept of their sacred cows with that which we are unable to define or explain. In fact they have had such audacity they dare claim that the words "in God we Trust" proves we are a 'Christian nation'...God is not the Sole property of any religion, and certainly a misrepresentation to obscure the two, to put it mildly.
Am I 'God Fearing' Yes. I have no idea why one person in a group is struck by lightnening and not another. I have no idea why a Tsumani or hurricane wipes out on community but leaves antoher unscathed in the same area. Why a Tornado picks up one house and leaves another. I don't know when or how the first single celled organism came into existence. Nor do I know how or when or If the world will end. so yeah not knowing or at least not undersatnding at this point can invoke some fear- but also awe.so I have faith the shit I'd don't understand or able control will be managed by a higher power than myself- Faith and hope.
We have been given- by a Supreme being or as a result of the actions of nature (I don't know)- a most unique brain, it would be a disservice to either should we fail to utilize it.Not to mention ourselves.

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something to hold your hand
Posted by: frankly1 on May 9, 2009 6:19 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Belief in a god is a imposed illusion to facilitate social control otherwise it would not be indoctrinated into children before thier capacity for critical, deductive reason has had a chance to develop. God simply replaces the parent as the authority figure. It answers no questions (unless you consider "god works in mysterios ways" or "It's god's will - answers) Almost every atrocity in human history has been done with one hand on a bible or a koran. Marx got it right when he said that religion was the opium of the masses because all you who need a god to hold your hand though life must be on something! Live life guided by reason and compassion and respect for all life and invisible masters are not required.

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» Avoiding the central premis Posted by: frankly1
» re:feeding the homeless Posted by: stuarts
» RE: something to hold your hand Posted by: doodahman
» Not so! Posted by: frankly1

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"I just heard about a dumb believer"
Posted by: Beck on May 9, 2009 7:11 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"All believers are identical"

"Therefore, I am smarter than all believers."

(Maybe nothing is more comforting to the insecure person than having a huge group of people to feel superior to. Doesn't matter if you invented it.)

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Lack of nuance
Posted by: sunnywater on May 9, 2009 7:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He so badly wants to be HST.

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» Harry S Truman? Posted by: NYmediator
» RE: Lack of nuance Posted by: Eric Walther

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Some of this is funny
Posted by: sawdust on May 9, 2009 7:33 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And even funnier to find on this web site. The more people attempt to explain the unexplainable, defend the indefensible , rationalize the irrational and justify the incomprehensible, the more they make Matt's point. The less we need of this "God-talk",the more of it appears. It seems to spread like (gasp) swine flu. "Making a religion out of atheism" is an ages-old avocation. Hitchens, Dawkins, Eagleton, Fish, et. al., are just different colored balloons filled with the same hot air. They love to hear the sounds of their own voices. Matt is the only one NOT whistling in the dark in the cemetary.

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So it's like that, is it?
Posted by: doodahman on May 9, 2009 7:54 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Reading these screeds, both for and against "religion" (or faith, or spirituality, or whatever amorphous target is being put into the range finder), I become more convinced that faith and spirituality are mostly like masturbation-- everyone has some relationship with it, but nobody really needs to be talking about it in public.

I'm not about to start making arguments. I'll just say I am certain that God exists, I am certain that prayer has value, and I am certain that over time, this becomes apparent to every soul, in this life time or some thereafter. And I'll also say that I really don't concern myself one iota whether anyone else feels the same way.

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» Amen Posted by: Philip Newton

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Me thinks he protesteth too much
Posted by: Philip Newton on May 9, 2009 8:40 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Matt doesn't like Eagleton's beliefs and wastes not one word in shrieking so.

Sadly Matt, although I find your prose amusing at times, in this piece you just come across like an ignorant asshole.

Sorry, dude. You didn't offer one salient counterpunch to Eagleton's rather interesting theses, and you gave him a lot of free PR with your generous quoting of his work.

Maybe something in there hit a nerve, after all. Your diatribe was a bit punch drunk.

Love you anyway.

Phil

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» There's no intellectual effort Posted by: stormchilde1975
» RE: There's no intellectual effort Posted by: Philip Newton

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observer
Posted by: thisizrob on May 9, 2009 8:47 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Atheist questions the believer for some evidence of his God. Where the problem comes in is that the believer is not sure of his facts, so he falls back on cliques to answer. The Atheist demands evidence, what greater evidence is there than the changed life of a person who has no ability to change his downhill path, comes face to face with his awful situation and screems out to God and says, "GOD IF you are somewhere out there, show yourself to me. Help me out of this mire that i am in and i will serve you for the rest of my life!"

When we check on this miserable person at a later time, we find that they are now a totally changed person. Did they do it by themselves or was there a power outside of themselves that came to their rescue?
The evidence for God can only be measured in the lives changed by their understanding of the LOVE that God has brought this person into contact with. The Gospel of John, chapter 3 and verse 16 says an awful lot about God. It says, "God so loved the world (you and me and everyone else) that He Gave His ONLY Begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting Life".

Well, anyone can believe and jesus said that even the devils believe and tremble, unfortunately, there is no change in their lives so it isn't just belief that counts. God also said that IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments. I could be wrong but I get a very strong message that there is more to this thing than just believing. Maybe, just maybe, what the Atheists are demanding is not unrealistic at all. IF You believe in the Bible and the God of the Bible, then the Atheist has a right to demand that you put your money where your mouth is or at least, show by your actions that God IS and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Be that example of Christ, show the world who your master is, who your emancipator really is. Believe what the Bible says and stop making excuses. Stop cutting bits out as being irrelevant to todays living.
Stop trying to play God, your Atheist friend needs your friendship NOT being beaten around the head with your version of god. there is a statement that comes in fairly well on this one. "Your actions are speaking so loud, I can't hear what you are saying".

The Bible is a book of realistic situations from historical accounts, God claims to be the Author and He sure does not mince matters. First he gives warnings of what happens as a natural course of action when we (or anybody) decides to take the wrong pathway. there are natural results that happen for disobedience and are the working out of what happens through SIN. Throughout the Bible there are recorded stories of the Good, the bad and the Ugly and they are there for us to see just what happens when we go the wrong way. Sometimes God has had to step in because sin has gone too far and by natural course, man would be destroyed by his own stupidity and choice.
God is not willing that ANY should perish and so He works things round to help us grasp onto the fact that HE is in control.

When someone challenged Billy Graham's daughter as to why God allows all this bad stuff to happen, as i see it, she gave the very best of answers. She said, "We have legislated god out of our schools, our society and our lives. We do not want Him having control of us and since He is a Gentleman, He respects our wishes and steps out of the picture." We forget that since it is He who has the control, when He steps back, with Him goes all the protections that he controls. We are left as it were Uncovered and unprotected. the devil, who would have us believe that he does not exist, steps in to the void with his uncontrollable fury and wreaks havoc. Unfortunately, we want to blame God for "OUR" choices and throw up the age old argument, "If God is a God of Love, why does he allow little children to be harrassed by diseases and pain when they are innocent?"

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» RE: LOve is sacrificing your son? Posted by: sasquuatch55
» God has a communication problem Posted by: NYmediator
» What a load of crap. Posted by: thekidde
» RE: observer Posted by: morticia
» If god has a message... Posted by: Karina

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observer
Posted by: thisizrob on May 9, 2009 8:49 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well, we demanded He get out of our lives and now we want the protection without any strings attached. Sorry. there are strings attached and as the Bible says, "Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." You can't sow thistles and get watermelons growing on them. You can not sow evil and get good. God also asks us to be His witnesses but we want to do it all OUR way and then we complain about those nasty Atheists for pointing out our inconsistencies.



One fellow put it quite well when he mentioned about all the religiosity and then he mentions about someone being stoned for not keeping sunday holy or something to that effect.

I can see exactly where this fellow is coming from. We are mixing man made philosophy in with the Bible and that means mongrelisation. To the Atheist this stands out like the proverbial toilet in the middle of the desert. They have every right to question our "faith and belief" when it just does not add up. Maybe those Atheists who see this practice of hyppocrasy really do have a very strong case against us who say we believe in the Bible. Our witness to them has proved to be fundamentally flawed.

IF we are going to live by the Bible, we need to study it often and ask that God's Spirit will lead us into all truth AND THEN LIVE IT instead of trying to beat the Atheists around the head with our half hearted and false beliefs. It is either the Bible and the Bible ONLY or get out of religion altogether. They want answers NOT twaddle. Give them a fair go, they deserve it. Give them real answers, not some fairy tail story, give them the story of your conversion and what Christ means to you and why He means that to you. You will not convert them because that is NOT your job. Your job is to be their friends and pray for them, let God's holy Spirit do any converting, YOU are not qualified to do that. Give them a fair break and do not deride them. They may be the very person that Jesus is calling to a better life. Do NOT be a stumbling block to them as it seems that many have already been as seen by many of the notes written.



By the way, an enemy is someone that you have not yet befriended. Pray for them daily. They are wonderful people who have not yet met a real true blue Christian. Well, that pep talk was for myself. If you find something there that will benefit you, be my guest.

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» RE: Basic philosophical observances. Posted by: sasquuatch55
» RE: observer Posted by: stuarts

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As long as we're reading yet another "Fish" story
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN on May 9, 2009 8:58 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We might as well go back into the genealogy of the Fishies.
The christers have been murderers for a long long time.
You can read about it in their favorite book to thump.
Here's another Fish. Could they be related?

Swimming with the Fishies

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This current Pope is ng
Posted by: weathered on May 9, 2009 8:59 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
John Paul is spinning in his grave.

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» RE: This current Pope is ng Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: This current Pope is ng Posted by: weathered

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That argument you didn't understand
Posted by: leafsong1 on May 9, 2009 9:50 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He was saying that faith is irrational. You missed his point because he was using the irrationality of faith as a support for the rationality of faith. It's a bait and switch: you shoot down one argument, and he brings up the other. Shoot down the other and he goes back to the first. The object is simply to never admit that you are wrong, a tactic to which defenders of faith often resort.

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» RE: That argument you didn't understand Posted by: johnnygorockly
» Seems like a risky tactic... Posted by: leafsong1

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The faith/certainty argument...
Posted by: leafsong1 on May 9, 2009 10:00 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...is based on equivocation. Knowledge is anything we are certain of. Faith is a that subset of knowledge which encompasses those things we are certain of without rational reason. Faith and knowledge are indeed more similar in this way than scientific fact and knowledge. The thing is, no rational person cares about knowledge that isn't also truth. The spinner is equivocating knowledge and truth; that is the bogus part. Obivously, scientific fact is, on average, far closer to truth than faith, even if the only evidence you consider is the vast number of contradictory faiths: they can't all be true.

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FAITH
Posted by: Ahimsa on May 9, 2009 10:49 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is the conviction that something is true because you believe in it.

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"...one must believe in something else, because to live without answers would be intolerable."
Posted by: Sojourner on May 9, 2009 11:16 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As with the usual approaches to the topic of science and religion, Taibbi writes to shock rather than inform.

He ridicules the notion of the "unseen." The excessive dependence of our Western conceptualizations on sight is not debatable. The renowned French authority on perception, Merleau-Ponty, wrote and published his work "The Visible and the Invisible" 50 years ago. It's now already a classic, yet Taibbi writes as if it never happened.

The failures of science and reason are not debatable. True, it does not follow that religious answers are then acceptable. Nor is it acceptable to presume that faith and reason have nothing in common, as Taibbi suggests.

I grant that it is not necessary for survival to ask the religious question "Why are we here?" However, since we all know we shall die someday, don't hold it against us that some of us insist on asking that question--despite the "Ditchens" dismissal of "why" questions.

And those who stopped asking a long time ago might be surprised at the replies (not answers, for religion that is open-ended) to be found in responsible inquiries, unlike Taibbi's.

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» "We have created it all"? Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: "We have created it all"? Posted by: factbased

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A moving spirit.
Posted by: Sinibaldi on May 9, 2009 11:53 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There's a
moving and
delicate spirit
here, in my
mind, like
a pretty desire
in the light
of a young
dove.

Francesco Sinibaldi

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"This is the start of what is meant to be"
Posted by: Scalpel on May 9, 2009 6:17 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My patience with either side of this "debate" grows a little thinner with each salvo that gets fired. I am reminded of Carl Jung's observation of that, during the Cold War, the West was really only arguing with itself when it came to containing the Communist menace. It strikes me that the Christian right and the loudmouth rationalists are doing much the same here...as if they are the only ones with the right to hold the conversation.

This is all about who gets to rule the hearts and minds of the majority. Of that I am certain. Whoever controls the gates to the other side of existence gets to run the world. The Christian right does it by making themselves the sole road into whatever lies beyond. The rationalists and atheists do it by denying the gates even exist. They essentially want to become captain of the Titanic after it's hit the iceberg.

What we're seeing here is the crackup of a paradigm that defined the 20th century. Both sides have seen the end of their little game of dominance with offstage players being the winners. Yet they fight on, for they know nothing else. When the final nail of the 20th century is hammered into the wood in the next few years, this little debate will be as meaningful as other great debates of times past. It's time for something new. The sooner people wake up to this, the better.

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» Bull Posted by: factbased
» Actually... Posted by: Scalpel
» RE: Actually... Posted by: factbased
» **Sigh** Posted by: Scalpel
» RE: **Sigh** - my sympathies Posted by: stellabloo
» RE: **Sigh** - my sympathies Posted by: factbased
» RE: **Sigh** Posted by: factbased

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Interesting...
Posted by: johnnygorockly on May 9, 2009 9:08 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...that no one has pointed out that while Ealgleton was raised Catholic, he is attacking the "Ditchkins" as an atheist. Pithy point, I know, but still...

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FREEDOM.....AH, HOW SWEET IT IS...
Posted by: SassyFrassy on May 9, 2009 10:03 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
HERE IS WHAT STALIN SAID ABOUT AMERICA....

note here---"America, is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold: its patriotism, its morality, and its spiritual life. If we can undermine these three areas, America will collapse from within." ... Joseph Stalin

I THINK ravel from wikipedia said it best:

The democracies that will surely perish will be those who cannot tell the difference between good and evil, survival and ruin, freedom and tyranny. Or, perhaps more to the point, the greatest danger faced by democracy are those who deny that there is any real difference after all.

IT'S important to protect all our freedoms and constitutions...

see American center for law and justice & stoptheaclu.com & focusonthefamily & familysecuritymatters.org

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» Phony quote Posted by: ReallyBearish

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Say what you want about God but he's MAD AS HELL AND POUNDING US WITH MORE SUFFERING.
Posted by: maxpayne on May 10, 2009 4:52 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And I blame it all on society's ignorance, intolerance, greed, etc ...

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Piecing the bits together
Posted by: richard0a37 on May 10, 2009 4:58 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Reading this article reminds me that back in the 60s, I would occasionally hand my smoker friends (and I didn’t have any non-smoking friends) a fresh pack of 20 Piccadilly cigarettes and tell them they can have them if they can correctly count the number of the letter f that appear in the descriptive blurb on the back of the pack.

Well, no one ever got the right number; they always missed at least the two ‘f’s in the word ‘of’.

Reading from bottom to top solved that kind of problem.

Many people have difficulty reading. I know of one guy in particular who boasts almost, that every time he reads the same book, he discovers something he’d previously missed. I wondered why he didn’t absorb all the information in one reading. One reason may be that certain words have a heavy emotional undercurrent, and when such a word is encountered, it throws the reader’s concentration causing them not only to forget what they’d just read, but also to lose the logic contained in the present and the sentences they’ve still yet to read.

Once I’d cottoned on to this, I began taking note of any word that for me caused my mind to suddenly begin wandering without any apparent reason. Now, 40 years on, unless what I’m reading is extremely technical or mathematical, I rarely if ever need to return to the same paragraphs.

Applying reverse logic to major historical events tells us that nothing that happens does so purely by chance or coincidence. For example, Christianity could not have come about unless some one came back to life after dying. Therefore Christ had to be crucified in order that he could come back to life again.

In order for him to be crucified, someone had to betray him, and so on. Thus, all these events needed to be planned and orchestrated.

We now know that the Bible is perfectly clear that Mankind existed long before Adam and Eve came into the picture, but the perception was always that they were the first two people on the planet.

It seems likely therefore (and that’s because I can no longer be bothered to read it) that nowhere in the Bible is it explicitly stated that Christ did actually cease living, did actually die, on the cross, but he may well have passed out sufficiently for people to incorrectly draw the conclusion that he was medically and clinically dead.

Thus the creators of Christianity staged a big drama which they were able to get away with because people don’t know how to read, and that they are consequently too quick to come to the wrong conclusions.

The war in Afghanistan started on 7th October 2001, less than 1 month after 911. I remember George W Bush standing in front of Congress during his State of the Union speech on 20th Sep in which he said ‘we’re gonna get that Bin Laden’ .

Really! In less than 1 month, all the US plus those of the coalition forces amounting to several hundred thousand troops, vehicles, food and the whole gambit of backup and support could be deployed in less that a month?

It took months for first George Bush to amass the troops in 1991 when Saddam invaded Kuwait on 2nd August 1990. I remember sitting on the beach in Spain a month later in September looking at the front of the Sunday Times newspaper. Desert Storm began 16 January 1991 while I was visiting relatives in Oregon.

As we now know, the invasions of Afghanistan in 2001 was a ‘must happen’ event which could not have taken place in such a timely and seemingly innocent way without 911. Christianity could never have existed without someone rising from the dead; likewise, Afghanistan could never have happened without 911.

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» RE: Piecing the bits together Posted by: richard0a37

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Some things will never change
Posted by: willymack on May 10, 2009 12:56 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Some people are left-handed, most not. Some people are gay, most not. Some people have blue eyes, most not. Some people are atheists, most (claim to be) not. In my mind:
There will NEVER be a common ground between believers and REALISTS.
It's useless to try to achieve one.
The only way to any meaningful progress is to try to prevent the believers from taking over our lives, while steadily working toward a truly educated society, free of the influence of superstitious stupidity.

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Evidence of religion being fabricated?
Posted by: Wells on May 10, 2009 7:32 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm wondering how Terry Eagleton arrived at the translation: “Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen.”

I've always read the verse as: "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of that which is unseen" -- entirely different meanings.

How did "substance" become "assurance" and "evidence" become "conviction".

Is this an example of religion being fabricated?

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Rotten to the core....
Posted by: richard0a37 on May 10, 2009 11:57 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The fact of the matter is we live in an insane world. There is no real point to life. It is a phenomenon, just like electromagnetic radiation or the division of matter into its constituent fundamental particles.

The presence of a ‘belief system’ in our lives is itself an anachronism. Why is it that people are confronted with having to either believe or disbelieve in something in the first place?

Virtually from the day we are born, the society as a whole begins moulding the way we are supposed to think by presenting us with a set of circumstances that are irrational, illogical and downright misleading. These are:

• A long time ago, someone who was born in a region that has been forever blighted by armed conflict and which is today heavily embroiled in ongoing conflict with its nearest neighbours died and came back to life again
• The same person was apparently born of a virgin mother supposedly of royal and regal descent
• This is supposed to be relevant to our lives, when in fact they are as relevant as the current wave of suicide bombings and the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Under normal circumstances, every one of the 6 billion human beings alive today will eventually die and not come back to life again. Similarly, every one of the same human beings was conceived in the usual fashion, and none of us had a mother who was a virgin.

But if you can get people to believe in impossible situations, then it is but a small step to get them to believe in God.

However, it is also true that all primitive tribes carried, and still continue to carry inside themselves some kind of a belief system that venerates a supreme and mystical beginning to life, but it is also true that all deities did originally start out as real people who did eventually die, but whose reputations grew over the generations until they assumed the characteristics of Gods.

Personally, I find the Christian religion rather nauseating, as if our natural state of mind is to suffer and to atone for our ‘sins’ – i.e. Jesus died on the cross to save us.

The trouble is – young children are fed this stuff from day one virtually, and if it’s delivered by harsh, stern, unforgiving parents, it becomes devilishly difficult for the child to separate itself, for to reject the religion might also entail rejecting the parents as moronic imbeciles who may also be capable of extreme emotional cruelty if their children don’t subscribe to the same crackpot belief system.

In the mind of child, s/he will see its parent’s belief system as a cover up for their empty and meaningless lives that are devoid of any pleasure and enjoyment, parents who are wracked with guilt over sex in particular. It is not made any easier for the child who discovers that the school system is similarly inflicted and affected with the same negativity.

And of course, there is the political system that likes to use the word God as often as possible, especially when God is required to be on our side for the next war.

The very first comment of this article espouses – one nation under God, and this just about sums it up. How about one planet under God? Religion divides and separates, and it is extremely partisan and partial – if you don’t believe in my particular God, then you are not one of us. I have created an enemy for you to hate, now you must concur with my hatred and believe in the same God as me.

The whole presentation of religion is misguided, misleading, deliberately so, Western styled Christianity is a hocus-pocus designed to deliberately distort children’s perceptions and get them to grow up believing in things that can’t possibly be true.

Without doubt, religion was invented by unscrupulous people who had lots of evil little things festering in their minds.

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On the ubiquitous mobile phone ...
Posted by: richard0a37 on May 11, 2009 12:33 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is the purpose and meaning of life? What is the purpose and meaning of electromagnetic radiation? What is the purpose and meaning of the meson or the neutrino or the proton?

We nearly all of us carry with us a handheld mobile phone. It is a brilliant little device, and like Adam and Eve, all its constituent parts originally came out of the ground. According to the Book of Genesis, Mankind was created on the 6th day, but it took getting on for a hundred years or so from the time Thompson discovered the electron in 1894 to design, manufacture and market the modern day mobile phone.

But do I hear anyone questioning the meaning and purpose of such an ingenious piece of high tech magic? Do people ever stop to wonder how such a device came into being in the first place? And how on earth does the mobile phone always find its target. If I want to leave my house, I have to walk in the direction of the front door, and I also have to know where the front door is.

But not the mobile phone. It seems to know exactly where every other phone is, and doesn’t anyone else find this incredibly strange.

Hang on a minute. I have studied physics, I have studied satellite communication and telephony. Good grief, it doesn’t happen by magic, but it does happen according to the laws of physics and the properties of matter and energy.

At least, I know the answers well enough to say with 100% confidence, the appearance of the mobile phone in our lives did not require the intervention of a supreme being in order for it to come about.

In the absence of any religious belief system, we could have the same attitude towards life in general and ourselves in particular as we do to the mobile phone and all the other gadgets that we take for granted. Unfortunately, for some people, believing in God carries with it a life and death sense of urgency, as if their whole lives rest on maintaining this belief. Most people couldn’t give a toss how the mobile phone got here, it is here and we take advantage of the invention.

Light is the most mysterious of phenomena, yet we don’t have people ‘believing’ or ‘disbelieving’ in light or going around knocking on people’s doors clutching their ‘Light’ books begging people to believe in light or to ‘see’ the light.

Existence is governed by 4 forces – strong nuclear, weak nuclear, electromagnetic and gravity. Yet we don’t have people asking themselves – why 4 forces, as if knowing the answer would help us understand anything better than before. Of course, someone might one day invent a religion which gets you to believe in 5 forces, except you can’t tell the 5th force is there. It never reveals its presence and it doesn’t have any observable properties, but we know it’s there.

In fact, there are some physicists who have postulated the existence of a 5th force – the torsion field, but any progress made on discovering it will not be driven by belief, but by hard, empirical data and observation and investigation.

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Perhaps the Sun is conscious
Posted by: gregasola on May 11, 2009 7:33 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Perhaps the ancient Sumerians, Chaldeans, Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Celts, Maya, Inca, Aztec, and the Hindus are right to regard Sun as a living being?
Perhaps the Christians got this one wrong.
How have we bought into some invisible and mysterious god of light, when the Sun is beaming light down at us day in and day out – providing the basis for all life on the planet?
It’s time to bring the Sun back in from the cold, and I do so in my just-released book Sun of gOd. Find out more at linked text

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» RE: Perhaps the Sun is conscious Posted by: richard0a37

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They can keep giving Matt Taibbi a headache
Posted by: Eddie Van Helsing on May 11, 2009 8:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just don't hear them; I'm one of those horrible people who uses modern technology to isolate himself from human stupidity.

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Believers and non-believers
Posted by: LeeAnnG on May 12, 2009 1:31 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One of the big differences between believers and non-believers is that, although non-believers often have a tendency to make fun of True Believers, they don't believe that religious belief is INHERENTLY evil. They might believe that religion - or more precisely, fundamentalist religion - has caused more harm than good in the world, but they most certainly do not believe that religious people will be punished, eternally or otherwise, simply for their faith.

On the other hand, many religious people do believe that those without faith are inherently evil. In fact, they quite often believe that people are born in sin and that it's only through devine salvation (usually achieved through grotesque suffering) that we can be redeemed. (I find it absurd to think that a God who is all-powerful would create such flawed creatures, but that's just me.)

I am, perhaps, overly steeped in rationality, but there is far too much in religion that is illogical and contradictory for me. Even so, I neither believe that this illogic will bring eternal suffering to the believers, nor do I wish it upon them. The god of the Christians has always seemed to me to be a pretty nasty piece of work, what with sacrificing his most beloved son in order to exact suffering as the price for his forgiveness and all that punitive ugliness.

I once asked a Christian friend how god can be omnipotent, omniscient, and all loving at the same time. After all, if god is all powerful (omnipotent), he can make anything happen. If he is all knowing, he understands everything that is going on. And if he is all loving, he wants only the very best for his children. But it's pretty much impossible for god to be more than two of these at the same time. The only analogy to god's love I can imagine is the love parents have for their children, and (if god really is a supreme being) that love pales in comparison. Yet we humans have the capacity for nearly unconditional love for our children. What parent would willingly allow a child to suffer the horrors of hell for eternity for absolutely no other reason than punishment? Since there is no redemption once that decision is made, the point is not to rehabilitate, so it's almost purely revenge. According to one Christian family member, some Christians actually do believe that people go to hell for eternal damnation simply for a lack of faith. Is that all loving? I don't think so.

Anyway, the apparent Christian answer to this omnipotent/omniscient/all loving problem is FREE WILL! As if free will accounts for birth defects, cancer, accidental deaths of babies, natural disasters, and other horrors.

Religion is a comfort to many people for many reasons, but it is most definitely not logical or rational. For some it brings great joy, a feeling of connection, and peace. For many others, faith is born of fear. I have a friend who said she believes in the Bible because she is afraid not to. But her god is "all loving"!

None of it makes sense, so it might just be necessary for the fundamentalists among us to attempt to ensure that everyone believes what they do. That way, there is little room for doubt and the dogma does not seem quite so absurd.

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» RE: Believers and non-believers Posted by: richard0a37

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How is it faith?
Posted by: beastfan on May 15, 2009 7:36 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
when we are told that we will burn in hell for not accepting Christ, or that God will unleash his anger upon us for our un-Christian behaviour, such as treatings gays as humans, or not murdering a shopkeeper because he opened his store on Sunday?

how is that faith? That sounds like a threat to me. Is faith supposed to be like a gun to your head?

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» RE: How is it faith? Posted by: bigpic
» RE: How is it faith? Posted by: I shine not burn

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The difference between kneeling down and bending over.
Posted by: TFYQA on May 16, 2009 9:18 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"The three monotheisms, animated by the same genealogical death instinct, share a series of identical contempt: hatred of reason and intelligence; hatred of freedom; hatred of all books in the name the one & only; hatred of life; hatred of sexuality, of women and pleasure; hatred of feminity; hatred of the body, of desires & impulses. Instead of all that, Judaism, Christianity and Islam defend: faith and belief, obedience and submission, a taste for death and a passion for the beyond, asexual angel and chastity, virginity and monogamic fidelity, the wife and the mother, the soul and spirit. In other words, life crucified and celebrated nothingness" – Michel Onfray

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» On the other hand....... Posted by: richard0a37

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The moment of truth is at hand
Posted by: richard0a37 on May 17, 2009 12:45 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The moment of truth is at hand

OK! We have heard all the arguments from the prosecution, the defence and the in between ones. It is now time to hear the verdict.

First of all, I’d like to thank Matt Taibi for raising the issue – which is does God exist, or is it all a carefully crafted fraud, just like the so called science of alchemy.

I hereby call upon God - give us irrefutable proof of your existence.

And if he has not given us irrefutable proof of his existence by this time next week i.e Sun 24th May at 8.00 am, all believers and institutions that peddle the stuff must from that moment on SHUT THE FUCK UP and allow the rest of us to get on with our lives in any way we choose to live them.

Religion has had over 60 years to convince me that they have a case, but it has turned out to be as bogus as the evening I played a shepherd in the nativity play in my infants school.

It was total crap then.

It is total crap now.

So what might constitute irrefutable proof of his existence?

Well, for starters, he could make some female pregnant, though I think she might find it difficult to convince the gynaecologist that she didn’t have sex with some guy or artificial insemination.

He could bring someone back to life again, but convincing anyone of that will I think also be fraught with considerable doubt and uncertainty.

He could perform a miracle. For example, he could stage an event that violates the laws of physics.

Hang on a minute. That one was already done when 3 massive buildings each came tumbling down in under 10 seconds which as we all know, was orchestrated and masterminded by a bearded gentleman from a cave in Afghanistan.

What else could give us the proof we need?

Ah, I’ve got it. Next Saturday night, two really beautiful and well stacked women – preferably from Ghana and in their late 20s but I’m not that fussy, must come knocking on my door and ask me if they can stay the night cos they’ve no where else to go.

Come Sunday morning, I will KNOW that God exists and I can tell everyone.

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Geeesh, live and let live.
Posted by: bigpic on May 18, 2009 8:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is just slop bucket stuff. The ability to insult people does not on its own provide for any credibility. I can't believe Alternet wasted cyberspace with this hateful stuff.

If you don't want to believe, don't. But don't name call those who choose to believe. We aren't all the "religious right" you know...oh maybe you don't know that.

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» RE: Geeesh, live and let live. Posted by: richard0a37
 
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