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Sex and Relationships

Worried About Your Partner's Bedpost Notches? Get Over It

By John DeVore, The Frisky. Posted January 15, 2009.


What's better than someone who knows what they want, who goes for it, who never apologizes and who learns from experience?
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A couple of years ago, a friend of mine came to me for advice, and I think the advice I gave him was pretty good advice, if I do say so myself. Because when it comes to love and relationships, those who can, do. Those who can't give love and relationship advice.

My friend had just proposed to his girlfriend. The wedding promised to be epic, "Vegas-style" and planned with Pentagon-like precision. The sort of wedding where you wouldn't be surprised if a trained monkey dressed like a butler exploded out of a 17-tier wedding cake, holding a smaller, 10-tier wedding cake, as fireworks exploded, and an ABBA cover band parachuted in next to the champagne glass pyramid, while howling "Take A Chance On Me." No expense spared.

His fiancée had always been a righteous rock ‘n' roll chick, but now after years of her being fed a steady diet of wedding lust by the Matrimony Industrial Complex, she was frothing at the mouth to be crowned Princess Awesome of the Day. Such is her prerogative.

The advice my friend came to me for had nothing to do with what I expected. I thought he was going to vent the usual groom angst: the preparations for the romantic bacchanalia were overwhelming and expensive, his fiancée and her mother and her sisters all have short fuses, can he really be with one woman for the rest of his life? So I came prepared with the condescending bromides you tell a dude as he hurtles towards theoretical domestic bliss. To sum up that wisdom in a nutshell: "It'll be okay, bro."

Instead, what he shared with me, after the help of a few gin and tonics, was that he and his fiancée had playfully shared each others' numbers. Their "numbers," wink-wink. He had slept with less than 15 women in his life. She had slept with more than 15. More than 20. A bit more than 25, actually. He was despondent. I tried to console him. I asked him if the sex was hot between them. He said yes.

I said, "Dude, you don't go to a rock concert to see the lead dude pick up the guitar for the first time."

I don't think that meant much to him. They got married. A baby is on the way, but I know in the back of his mind, the carnal inequity between them is going to haunt him. And that confounds me.

She chose him from the 25 or so dudes she railed. Clearly, she's experienced, knows what she's doing, has had sex with enough guys to know what doesn't get her off, and she chose him. What's the big deal?

Two answers come to mind. One involves the whole "slut versus stud" gender dynamic. Women are supposed to guard their virtue and deny their sexual appetites. My friends fiancée loved to get it on, and while mistakes were probably made, and hearts probably broken, she should get points for being in touch with her desires. Conversely, men are programmed to want sex every minute of every day. In some ways, our ability to want to drop our pants at the mere rumor of a vagina gives us social value. Maybe my friend felt a drop in his social value because his girl could get more booty than he could. He could have been a closet Puritan or a time-traveling Victorian inventor.

Trust me, when you're dead, you'll regret not having had more fun with your genital organs.

The other answer concerns the relationship between love, possession, and how possession is actually the opposite of love. When you love someone, you love them regardless of whether they return the favor. Which is a scary thing, but ultimately we lose all that we love, so get used to it. Possession is a manic response to this uncertainty, and it's a way to try and guarantee that you will be loved back. It breeds insecurity, causes people to snoop, doubt, and obsess over past lovers. My friend seemed most upset that his fiancée's hunger for penis suggested she might cheat on him or that somehow he didn't measure up.

Personally, I love a "slut", someone who knows what they want, who goes for it, who never apologizes, but who learns from experience. I also appreciate full-disclosure. And anyone who doesn't live their life like they are making it up on the go is lying to themselves.

My friend is lucky. I mean, we all have our doubts, but marriage and long term relationships, and love, to a degree, are about two people constantly forgiving the other for the embarrassment of being human. He's lucky because his "slutty" wife knows what she's doing in the sack. She also wants to be with him and only him.

My number is … Well, do we know each other enough to go there? Buy me a drink, at least. 


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A word that could/should pass into extinction
Posted by: davmills on Jan 15, 2009 8:45 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The word "slut" is an ugly one: aesthetically as well as in meaning. It would be nice never to hear it again or see it again.
If that were to happen, it would take the easy but impossible (for many)attitude that what women do in private is their business. It would take accepting and practicing equality, again something impossible for many.

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The best advice:
Posted by: oregoncharles on Jan 15, 2009 12:06 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Don't ask, don't tell.

Numbers are meaningless (I lost count, and still felt like a failure). As long as you've checked for STD's, they're also nobody else's business. And, as the author points out, a potential landmine in a relationship.

Anyway, the difference between 15 and 25 isn't significant. It really just means that women can generally get laid if they want to, men have to try a little harder. Silly thing to worry about.

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More marriage B.S Get over the past
Posted by: MBINSD on Jan 15, 2009 1:04 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The question isn't, how many partners you had before me. The question is, are you going to have any more other partners while we're together in matrimony? And if so, will I be able to handle it? For that matter, promiscuous is promiscuous, and slut or stud have nothing to do with it.

The thing is, both of them decided to marry each other so they either work it out or they shouldn't be getting married. Both of them had sexual partners previous to getting married so what does who had the most have to do with anything? Sure, mentally there are always going to be comparisions being made but that shouldn't be a factor if they're serious about getting married.

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Virgins are BORING
Posted by: Crazy H on Jan 15, 2009 5:40 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wholeheartedly agree with the author.
Having multiple partners is the only way to get a well-rounded sex education. (What they teach in school is hardly sex education. It's amazing that they can actually make belly-bumping sound so clinically unappealing.)


I'm not into the whole "virgin" myth thing, I'd rather be with someone who knows what she's doing. I'm glad my wife picked up a little experience along the way - she's happier for it, and so am I.

Besides, that way she can appreciate how good I am. (tongue firmly in cheek)

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I hear you . . .
Posted by: Scientz on Jan 16, 2009 2:38 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Numbers are meaningless . . . I told my (very recent, sniff) ex that I was fairly certain she was number 40. She blanched for a sec, but she was really cool about it (she's cool all around, so I'm not surprised).

The one thing I do notice though, now that I've "had" my fair share of women, is that meaningless sex does nothing for me anymore. Not even mechanically. If I do not have an intellectual connection with the woman, my penis doesn't even get erect. I just can't do casual sex anymore. Personally, I highly doubt I'll get to 50, and I actually prefer it this way.

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Excuse me?
Posted by: kid5rivers on Jan 17, 2009 3:55 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You mentioned this:
"...Trust me, when you're dead, you'll regret not having had more fun with your genital organs..."

Excuse me? But, were you at one time dead? How, then, would you know this?

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» RE: xcuse me? Posted by: Ishmael1
» That's a Given Posted by: curiousdwk
» I KNOW! Posted by: Ahimsa
» RE: xcuse me? Posted by: Joni50
Answer.
Posted by: Cowardly_lion on Jan 17, 2009 4:22 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What's better than someone who knows what they want, who goes for it, who never apologizes and who learns from experience?


Someone who learns with you. I'm sick and tired of this fresh attitude that sex is absolutely something that should be experienced with many people as many times as you can. I'm sick and tired of it being something taken as lightly as what could be better than.....

We forget so quickly that sex is meant to and DOES have an emotional side to it. It's meant to be something you share with someone and be a gift that you enjoy with your life partner and grow together with. If it's not emotional, then all you're doing is kidding yourself and treating both yourself and the other person like an object. Nothing more than something to be tossed aside like a tissue. That's totally unfair to both sides of the relationship.

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» Casual sex much? Posted by: Fog
Venus and Mars
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Jan 17, 2009 4:27 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A friend of mine lied to his first GF and said he'd been with other girls before. I guess he figured he could wing-it the first time he slept with her, and hope for the best.

My point is that he probably didn't have to lie, but out of inexperience with women, he assumed that women think like 20-year-old guys, and would rather hear a good BS story than the truth. The workings of the female brain will always be somewhat puzzling to me, but my sense is that they don't care as much about things like how many chicks you've bagged, so comparing notes with your spouse is like comparing apples and oranges.

Also, consciously or subconsciously, we probably have reasons for picking who we pick for a spouse. Whether you call it "soulmates" or patterns of neurosis, it all seems largely predetermined. So you really have no choice in the matter, and should get used to the numbers and get on with your life. Either way, she's the boss.

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This Is Why No One Serious Takes AlterNet Seriously...
Posted by: loxias on Jan 17, 2009 6:56 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So 25% or more of teen girls now have an STD, IN AMERICA, and you think it's ok to tell people to screw around because they might regret not doing it. In my 20's I did. I was lucky. I can't count the number of friends who were similar or worse, and now have herpes or worse. They were all just trying to make some good memories for when they got old, no?

Why be careful who you sleep with? Because sex with many partners causes small infections which lead to birth problems, pregnancy problems, prostate problems, cervical cancer; the list goes on. That doesn't mean don't have sex, but if you do it with a lot of different people, your chances of escaping without problems diminishes very quickly.

Guess what you'll regret the most when you get old. Not being able to use the bathroom normally once you can't get aroused any more.

As for the guy in the story, I wish he'd come to me for advice. I'd have said don't throw your money away on the slut, she's already given a strong indicator that you won't be her last notch.

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» Spot on... Posted by: thekid
It's Love That's The Important Thing, Not Past Sexual History
Posted by: Ishmael1 on Jan 17, 2009 8:10 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a veteran of the fleshpots of the world when everything was curable, let me offer the above thought. I always thought the slut/stud dichotomy was blatantly unfair. From my perspective, anything a woman did BEFORE she met me was irrelevant. It's what she did AFTER she met me that concerned me. True love is all about giving up control and giving and accepting trust. If that trust is reciprocated, what difference does it make?

I first saw my wife on her mother's 51st birthday, three weeks before I turned 14. Hit by the thunderbolt that day, she became the template for every girl I'd ever be attracted to. I didn't actually meet her until 21 years later. I didn't find out who she actually was until after we had R-U-N-D O-F-T together after the Loma Prieta quake. So my advice to readers here is hold out for love and don't sweat the small stuff.

If you don't know what true love is or haven't experienced it yet, here's my rule of thumb.

If you have to ask yourself if it's the right thing, it ain't. When you have true love, you know it in your bones. My wife lived in the Haight in 1967 and had two previous husbands(one a Pisces named Richard like me). Kismet is still Kismet and I don't regret a moment we've spent together.

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Let's Not Mystify Sex
Posted by: Libertine on Jan 17, 2009 8:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First, as one who has a scorecard in the triple digits after 30+ years of being sexually active, I don't think I've been with anyone whose numbers surpass my own. That being said, it wouldn't bother me if I were to someday encounter someone who did.

I'm not particularly keen on virgins or sexual naivete in general in my choice of partners -- I like someone who, as the author said, knows what she wants and knows how to go about it. I'm not much on playing the teacher role, though I've done so when I was younger.

Though I'm not interested in entering into the confines of marriage as it is currently understood, I can't understand marriage-minded men who want a woman who knows how to cook, but wants her to be inexperienced when it comes to sex. I don't know any men who want to teach their wives how to cook after they get married. Why should sex, which is as basic of a need as eating, be any different? In every endeavor, except for sex, more experience is always considered more desirable than less or no experience.

That being said, even though I'm slowing down a bit now that I'm getting older, I know I'd have a very difficult time going from having an active and varied sex life to confining myself to a single partner from then on if I were to get married. I would imagine the same is likely true for others, male and female, who have had active and varied sex lives before getting married. The statistics on infidelity and serial monogamy would seem to indicate the truth of that many people simply aren't cut out for monogamy. To continue to insist on strict monogamy for everyone, without exception, is naive at best. The only way I could get married would be in an open marriage or a polyamorous one, which would be a more realistic choice for a lot of others as well. "One size fits all" is a myth, especially when it comes to personal relatioships.

I would imagine that the best marriages, of whatever type, are probably those in which the spouses are fairly evenly matched in level of libido, prior experience, and attitudes about sex.

Let's not mystify sex. It's a basic human need like any other and is best approached in a practical manner.

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Insecurity is at the Root of Jealousy
Posted by: snax on Jan 17, 2009 9:18 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Those concerned with the number of sexual partners their lover has had (beyond the obvious STD risks) are simply insecure about themselves.

I really don't care if my wife had just a couple lovers or a hundred before we got together. It has never been about that to either of us.

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What's wrong with fidelity?
Posted by: barefeet on Jan 17, 2009 12:54 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If one has it and the other doesn't then trouble is a-brewing if they wed. Problem is to know that going in and if you clearly do - then don't.

A careful dating phase usually reveals that - with bright people.

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Not everyone's lucky to find a partner let alone get married.
Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield on Jan 17, 2009 8:59 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But then again, I'm used to being a single and while it can get lonely at times, I can avoid the relationship issues with ease.

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Leave the past there
Posted by: Tink32 on Jan 17, 2009 9:28 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why do people continue to live in the past? Let the past stay there. All you are guaranteed is today. Live today. Let yesterday go. It does not really matter.

If you make promises today, keep them. If you cannot, do not make them. It is that simple.

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Eh, this'll do.
Posted by: maddy on Jan 18, 2009 9:40 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's funny; a close friend of mine and I (we are both single women over 30) have a version of this debate all the time.

Personally, if I man I was involved with freaked out about my number (15) I would probably dump him. I'm very touchy about men wanting to control or possess me, and in my experience the sex is usually bad if the guy is constantly trying to prove his prowess. Insecurity is never attractive and does kill most relationships. So, on the one hand, I think that no good can result from the "What is your number?" question.

ON THE OTHER HAND, and this is where my friend and I argue, I also think that the indiscriminate accumulation of partners *is*, for lack of a better word, gross. I lost my virginity at 17 and I am now 33. 15 partners in 16 years, with somewhat predictable clusters of lovers (i.e. college) and year or even 2 year long dry spells (i.e. graduate school. God! Single girls, never go to grad school!).

However, I am also an active member of a local dance community, and the women always compare notes about the male regulars in the scene. There are 3 particular guys who hit on every, and I mean EVERY, woman they EVER dance with, and that creeps me out. By contrast, if I dance with 20 men in an evening, I'll probably feel a genuine sexual spark with, what, 2? 3? I plain do not believe that straight men and women are *so* different that men are genuinely attracted to nearly every woman they encounter.

It seems to me that if you're willing to sleep with any person you encounter, that ALSO speaks to insecurity, but it also suggests that you see sex partners as mere instruments for your use and relief.

Personally, I want to be *wanted* and I think a potential partner deserves that genuine interest as well. I do not regret my "number." Instead, what I do regret are the partners I took for "negative" reasons. The worst sex I've had has been when I acted on my own fears or insecurities--fear of being alone, fear of being unattractive--or when I just was selfish and wanted to get off. So, to me, once folks start accumulating dozens upon dozens of lovers, I have to wonder if they have something to prove, cannot emotionally connect with other people, or are just so selfish a lover that they don't care whether or not they connect with other people.

In short, if you approach your sex life with such low expectations, "Eh, this'll do," it doesn't say much for how you treat yourself or your partners.

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» I hated my 20s Posted by: strahlungsamt
» RE: h, this'll do. Posted by: jeffr
Ok, no big deal when the numbers are
Posted by: rickiey on Jan 18, 2009 11:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
25, but what about 80?

I'm just curious about everyone's thoughts on this one.

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THIS is an Alternet posting?
Posted by: scajomar on Jan 18, 2009 7:04 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Gaza? Obama's center-right Cabinet? Overpopulation and global climate change? Starvation, deforestation, dehumanization?

How can this trivial crap come up in my purview as "news."

Get lives.

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Rightttttttttttttttttt
Posted by: bob12386 on Jan 18, 2009 7:47 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Women don't choose the "dude that gets her off", they choose the sucker they think will provide for her offspring. Said offspring need not even be his. In fact, in the biological/evolutionary sense, preferably, they aren't his.

Secondly, if a woman has slept with 25 guys, she is a worthless slut of epic proportion. She is not worthy of marriage. Only in the sick, decadent West, would anyone even consider her as a wife and mother.

What a disgustingly decayed culture we live in.

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» RE: ightttttttttttttttttt Posted by: davmills
» RE: ightttttttttttttttttt Posted by: mjglow
» Sour Grapes Posted by: Libertine
» RE: ightttttttttttttttttt Posted by: jeffr
» RE: ightttttttttttttttttt Posted by: Tink32
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