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Sex and Relationships

Conservatives Push Hard for Gay Marriage Ban

By Karen Ocamb, AlterNet. Posted October 16, 2008.


An influx of cash from the Religious Right has boosted the campaign for Prop. 8, pushing the anti-gay measure dangerously ahead in the polls.
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Pennsylvania Gov. Ed Rendell told MSNBC recently that the economic crisis would trump cultural issues in his battleground state Nov. 4. Blue-collar working-class families are trending for Democrat Barack Obama for president, he said, worried more about their budgets than Obama's African-American race.

Obama's Republican opponent, John McCain, on the other hand, is having difficulty with some of his angrier supporters who perceive Obama in various permutations of "the Other" -- making him "dangerous," as the National Republican Trust put it in an e-mail distributed by the conservative publication Newsmax.

But while the world watches the critical presidential match, there is another high-stakes culture clash being waged, pitting the gay community against the Religious Right. It is the battle over Proposition 8, an initiative on the California ballot that would eliminate the right of same-sex couples to marry.

For gay people and their allies, the battle is not only about retaining the "fundamental" right to marry, as the California Supreme Court ruled May 15; it is also about not letting the majority vote to take away an existing right of the minority and thus adding to other disgraceful moments in American history, such as when the country tolerated Jim Crow laws and the Japanese internment, to name a few examples.

For the proponents of Prop. 8, however, the battle is "spiritual warfare," with religious freedom and the nation itself at stake if same-sex marriage is allowed to survive and spread beyond California's borders.

"If sexual freedom is the ultimate liberty, then you have to rewrite the Bill of Rights," Chuck Colson, founder of the Prison Fellowship Ministries, says on a Yes on Proposition 8 video produced by the American Family Association for distribution to pastors and Christian activists. "This vote on whether we stop the gay marriage juggernaut in California is the Armageddon. We lose this -- we're going to lose in a lot of other ways, including freedom of religion."

The Church of Latter-day Saints, the Catholic Church and Christian evangelical churches and organizations, including the Family Research Council (FRC), are telling church members to give all they can to ProtectMarriage.com, the group spearheading the Yes on 8 movement.

By the end of September, Yes on 8 raised $25.4 million, compared to $15.7 million for the No on Prop. 8 campaign, according to the California secretary of state Web site. The Mormon Church alone contributed $9,072,329.58 as of Oct. 14, according to Mormonsfor8.com.

"This Supreme Court (ruling in favor of marriage equality) decision was a huge wake-up call for Catholics. It was shocking," Catholics for Protect Marriage leader Bill May told the Associated Press. "The sense is that this is the last chance to restore the definition of marriage, and if unsuccessful, it is going to have serious ramifications for California and across the country."

"This is not political to us. We see it as very spiritual," Jim Garlow, pastor of the evangelical Skyline Church in San Diego County, told AP. Garlow is part of a nationwide 40 days of prayer, fasting and intensive mobilization of "God's Army," leading up to a Nov. 1 rally in San Diego's Qualcomm Stadium of 10,000 "young pioneers" supporting passage of Prop. 8. A video on TheCall's Web site promoting the Qualcomm rally calls the Prop. 8 battle a war between Darkness versus Light.

"Thirty-five years of an American abortion holocaust, the civil imposition of homosexual 'marriage' upon America and the indoctrination of America's public school children in pro-homosexual ideology are practices that a Holy God will not tolerate," FRC's National Prayer Director Rev. Pierre Bynum said in an e-mail.

"The future of our nation hangs in the balance!" FRC President Tony Perkins wrote in an e-mail to supporters.

None of the fervor of the Religious Right, however, filtered through to the gay community. In a conference call with reporters Oct. 7, members of the No on Prop. 8 campaign said they were hurt by complacency after early polls showed Prop. 8 going down to defeat.

No on Prop. 8 supporters also said they were caught short by the massive influx of money from the Religious Right. That funding enabled the Yes on 8 campaign to widely distribute an effective commercial featuring a menacing-looking San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom, followed by a Pepperdine law professor making a series of claims that individuals will be "sued over personal beliefs, churches could lose their tax exemptions, gay marriage taught in public schools" if Prop. 8 fails.

In an unprecedented political move, No on Prop. 8 consultant Steve Smith released its internal polling by respected pollster Celinda Lake of Lake Research Partners, which paralleled an Oct. 7 poll by SurveyUSA.

Lake's poll of 1,051 likely voters from Sept. 29-Oct. 2 showed that 47 percent now support Prop. 8, compared to 43 percent who oppose it. A SurveyUSA poll of 670 likely voters on Oct. 4-5 showed Prop. 8 winning by 47 percent to 42 percent.

"We're currently being very badly outspent," Smith said. "Their ad is really breaking through -- it's reaching across the spectrum and having major penetration. ... Their ad is effective because it shows people being pissed off at government. We need to deliver our own messages."

The new poll numbers served as a wake-up call for the LGBT community and its allies, including Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa, who contributed $25,000 and helped raise more than $200,000 at a recent No on Prop. 8 fundraiser.

"I vow to vote No on Proposition 8 because I believe our civil society demands that we uphold -- not eliminate -- these fundamental rights. I believe all Californians deserve to be treated equally. And I believe that government exists to protect individual rights, not to undermine them," Villaraigosa said in a statement released by the Courage Campaign.

At a recent fundraiser, West Hollywood City Councilmember John Duran, president of the LGBT lobbying group Equality California, explained why domestic partnerships are not the same as marriage equality.

"In recent history here in California, we had one set of drinking fountains for blacks and one set of drinking fountains for whites. And what difference did it make if everyone got a drink of water?" Duran said. "In Los Angeles, we even had a third set of drinking fountains for Mexicans. And in San Francisco, there was yet another set of fountains for the Chinese. And did it really matter? After all, everyone got a drink of water from the same river or stream. If everyone's thirst was quenched, did it matter that there were separate fountains?

"Yes. It mattered," Duran said, "because in those moments, we treated our fellow Californians as if they were different or inferior to us. And it did not afford them the dignity to which they were entitled as fellow citizens. And even worse -- we denied dignity to ourselves by trying to uphold practices that violated our own basic decency and notions of equality."

On Oct. 14, the culture clash appeared again on the presidential stage when WorldNetDaily published a story in which supposed "domestic terrorist" William Ayers, whom the McCain campaign has tried link to Obama, endorsed a book called Queering Elementary Education: Advancing the Dialogue About Sexualities and Schooling. Ayers called the book an "important contribution to nourishing the ethical heart of teaching."

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Seperation of Church & State Violated
Posted by: bryangalt on Oct 16, 2008 2:24 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article makes several references to Pastors and other Clergy making pitches to their sheep to give as much money as they can to get Proposition 8 passed, presumably so that God won't fly down here and punish someone for allowing it to happen.

I am wondering, isn't it illegal for a church leadership to actively promote a desired course of action on a political campaign or proposition? Doesn't that move their role away from spiritual warden into the role of political advisors to their sheep?

I want to know what is the TRUE ISSUE that they have with allowing loving, caring individuals who are of the same sex get married. I don't want to read their propogandized bullshit that gets the 'jerry springer' set motivated.

I also want them to explain, in detail, how this is the Armegeddon issue of our time? Frankly, if their God was that upset about it, wouldn't he have, at the very least, sent a meteor into the California Supreme Court building to punish them for thinking about others so thoughtfully?

I also want to know why their God isn't a little peeved at the fact that all of these churches are cherry picking the sins they think are important (gay marriage being in vogue this season). What ever happened to Marriage for life? What about premarital sex? What about the sins of coveting, lust and killing your fellow man?

If these folks are so devoted to the Bible, why do we have any women involved in this matter? Why are they in the workplace and not at home tending to the kids like they are supposed to do (just ask the Muslims about that view).

The really irritating part of all this is the fact that these churches have the shortest memories of all. The FACT of the MATTER is that this country was initially colonized by church going, god-fearing 'pilgrims' who came over here to get away from the people who tried to shove their religious points of view down their collective throats. They had to leave their homelands to escape the kind of people who are trying to assign a church value to a constitutional question. What's next-LA Bitch Trials? Will we all be force fed the version of the Bible that these fake Christian organizations are peddling? If we resist, will it be 'water-boarding' to save our souls? Where will it stop?

The answer is: it won't. People, you have nothing to fear from gays getting married. It will not change the price of gas or milk, your husband isn't going to leave you to move in with his lover or start hitting the gay bar (at least not more than he may be already), your taxes aren't going to change and your church will probably still preach hate over love. So what's the problem?

However, if these church groups manage to heard you into follow the group, and they take away this right from gay people, then we are truly in trouble because our country was founded on the iron-clad notion that churches and governments were not to be intermixed, and this was not set up that way just because someone thought it sounded like a neat idea, it was set up that way to protect everyone, including you and your churches.

If Proposition 8 does pass, I want to make it my mission to impose more of your fake morality into law: divorce should be illegal, close down everything on Sunday to honor your god (including Bingo and Casinos-sorry natives), unmarried sex? break out the stones...

Then you may know what the wrath of God is and good you had it, but you couldn't just let it go...

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» Misunderstanding? Posted by: ABetterFuture
Supporting the family is not violating the separation of church and state.
Posted by: rcase on Oct 16, 2008 3:59 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It amazes me that anyone who wants to support the importance of marriage (as between a man and a woman), an understanding of which has been the commonly held standard of sexual morality as defined by all cultures and all religions and at all times, is now being labeled as "the religious right" (a pegorative term). Is this to say that the whole world except for California (and in several other places) is to be considered extremist ("religious right") and that there is no harm in redefining the standards accepted by all people at all times? I"m sure persons who legitmately qualify as the "religious right" are opposed to marriage as defined however we want to define it, but what about the Latino community, the African-American community, the Jewish community, the Muslim community, and many other groups. The belief in celebacy in singleness and faithfulness in marriage cuts across political, economic, religious, and racial lines.

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» RE: You have an interesting position Posted by: eaajdjholton
» Proposition 8 is anti-family Posted by: DHopper
» RE: RCASE: One question. Posted by: Crazy H
This Just Boggles my Feeble Mind!
Posted by: nobuko on Oct 16, 2008 4:41 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just don't understand why individuals do what they do; what, they don't have enough to do, other than get in other folks business.

Have they FORGOTTEN that ALL GAY PEOPLE were brought into this world by a MAN AND WOMAN?

Have the FORGOTTEN the Catholic Church and how they MOLESTED children for CENTURIES, therefore RESPONSIBLE for some of these Homosexuals?

Have they FORGOTTEN that the reason many of these Homosexuals could be this way because of HOW they were treated and/or ABUSED by their Parents, close friends and relatives?

What is this thing in America that Religious Nuts BELIEVE they must CONTROL the LIVIHOOD of other people?

I Know that overall, I am a Conservative/Moderate Person, but NO WAY, NO HOW could I ever identify with most republicans, these are some sick people. I can't STAND being CONTROLLED by others, its bad enough we must live a certain way to have a life, than have others come into my life after 5PM, or whenever I get off work and TELL ME, how I must LIVE, THINK and BEHAVE! As long as I am NOT CAUSING HARM TO others, STAY THE HECK out of my LIFE!

I would NOT be surprised if most of these Religous Nuts that Opposes Gay Marriages, are RESPONSIBLE for many of these Homosexuals sexuality, and pissed off because they can't ABUSED them any longer!

Remember the Saying, that "Those who Shout the Loudest, have many Skeleton's in their Closet." Just look at this Bush/Cheney Administration, haven't they done ONE HECK OF A JOB, ACCUSING OTHERS, for EXACTLY what they've been doing. THINK ABOUT IT!

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Oh, the Irony
Posted by: LeaderofMen on Oct 16, 2008 4:55 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For the record, myself and my partner of 20 years were married in Palm Springs on June 30.

Now, for the irony.

The opponents of Prop 8 are, without exception, frothing-at-the-mouth religious whackos. Their main point is that the STATE will FORCE the CHURCH to perform weddings against the wishes of the church.

Well. Let's see what's so here. There are MANY churches that have, are and will be performing same-sex weddings. Those weddings have no legal value because a wedding is ONLY official if it has a LEGAL document that accompanies it. Thus, no wedding is legal unless the state sanctions it.

If Prop 8 is passed, those same churches will continue to perform religious weddings whether the RELIGIOUS WHACKOS LIKE IT OR NOT. There is no way religious whackos can stop churches from continuing to perform religious weddings. NONE. ZILCH. ZIP.

Their attempt to thwart this Prop is to prevent LEGAL weddings. Thus, this is the ultimate intrusion of the church into state affairs.

The sad part of this is how incredibly stupid Americans are about this issue. They vast majority of American voters have no idea that this is merely an attempt by religious whackos to intrude totally and completely into the legal system.

I find it hilarious that this will never ever stop church weddings.

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» RE: Oh, the Irony Posted by: terradea42
» RE: Oh, the Irony Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Oh, the Irony Posted by: Xynyx
I am afraid
Posted by: Erin on Oct 16, 2008 5:10 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
that the right will win this. I say this because I am an employee at a public school in California, and I am an out lesbian. A good number of the teachers are Christian and they have expressed to me that while they, personally, don't mind if homosexuals have rights and benefits like heterosexuals, they do have a great problem with the use of the word "marriage". From listening to these people I think the use of the word itself is more of a problem for these people than the actual right of marriage. Some have told me that they can understand the need for gay couples to have equal rights and would have voted for us, but cannot in good conscience vote for it if the word marriage is used as they feel, that under their belief systems, that marriage is a religious word and action.
So, if this initiative wins, I think the LGBT/gay marriage activists need to heed these strong religious right feelings and start a new initiative using a more generic word like Civil Union or Domestic Partnership, but something that still has all the rights and privleges as marriage.

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» RE: I am afraid Posted by: Lauren
» RE: I am afraid Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: I am afraid Posted by: Erin
» RE: I am afraid Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: I am afraid Posted by: Erin
If it comes home who's to blame?
Posted by: Nightstallion on Oct 16, 2008 5:19 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Guys have lived together for years and no one bitches untill they happen to think that they may be more than just friends, then the excreta strikes the rotary air oscillator and we all get spattered with blather and horse manure. Same as it ever was . . . same as it ever was . . . same as it EVER WAS!

THIS time however there may be blood in the streets. Treat people like whipped curs long enough and they begin to believe that they are targets. Some of us would rather be shot for being wolves than just a strange pink sheep.

The Pogroms are coming hurrah . . . hurrah! But herding American gays isn’t like chasing the swing crowd around Germany, nor will it be like gathering nuts in May. It will be like herding cats, each with a will of its own; all armed with fangs and claws. I guess we must be ready huh?

You think the real J.C. would back up these so-called Christians in their shining armor? Better look again in to you big book Christian, without the preacher looking over your shoulder telling you what is and isn’t Christ consciousness. You may be surprised who really casts the stones.

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In a state like CA where the economy is doing far worse,
Posted by: maxpayne on Oct 16, 2008 5:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
it's highly unlikely that CA will be KS at a time like this. Besides, with the divorce rate at 50%, "conservatives" will just have to get a grip and start out by cutting down on gender divide whether we're talking wages, fashion freedom, or just about anything that represents gender inequality.

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There's got to be a deeper issue here
Posted by: zooeyhall on Oct 16, 2008 6:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a gay person, it has always bewildered me how so much effort and so much money can be wasted on a trivial issue like trying to ban gay marriage. I mean, there are people starving in the world, kids in this country who can't get medical care--and we have these schmoes CONSTANTLY harping on this issue, as if allowing a few gays to get hitched will cause the downfall of civilization.

I have often wondered: there has GOT to be more involved here then just "doing what the bible says". What is so threatening about gay marriage anyway?

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» You are being hypocritical Posted by: begruntleed
Don't definitions change over time?
Posted by: scottyrocks on Oct 16, 2008 7:00 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is either about control of other people's business by Jesus freaks or simply a semantic issue.

Haven't definitions for all kinds of things changed over the last few hundred years?

Why would the word marriage be any different?

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Churches can Reject ..But the USA Can Not
Posted by: Purple Girl on Oct 16, 2008 7:18 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I could give a Shit if the Catholic church says they Won't "marry" Gay couples, Bu tI do care that such a Ban is a Federal Or State mandate.
I'm a Heterosexual who does not care if Bob & Jim move in next door. In fact the Communities which have a high demographic of Homosexual couples are well maintained, thus increase the value of the Homes in the area. We could Definitely use a bump on the vlaue of our house right about now.
I am befuddled how any one can Claim to be a True American and Yet still Hold this Discriminatory Hypocracy.
If you Don't beleive in gay marriage..don't marry someone of Your Own Gender- Easy to abid by YOUR particular Religious Beliefs. But I still hold the Adage 'We are all Gods Creations'. He gave Us the ability to 'LOVE' But gave Us Free will to Choose who we will bestow that Love upon. God may make a Judgement, But it is Only a Judgement an Almighty should make.Frankly such Judgements Are above Our Pay Scale.

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Vote No on Prop 8
Posted by: vasumurti on Oct 16, 2008 7:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A couple of years ago, Church & State, the periodical put out by Americans United for Separation of Church and State quoted a conservative Christian as having admitted that once "God's design" is removed from the argument, there's no real reason to limit marriage to one man and one woman.

Conservatives do have a point, however, when they argue that if we legalize same-sex marriages, what's to stop us from legalizing incest or polygamy?

Regarding same-sex marriages. Back in 1995, when I was traveling with a group of activists, protesting the Republicans "Contract On America," I said that although I couldn't support same-sex marriages, I had no problem with civil unions. This is Jimmy Carter's position today.

A few years ago, my friend Dave Browning, a conservative, pro-life Republican in San Diego, said he opposed same-sex marriages on the grounds that the definition of marriage (an institution that has lasted thousands of years) should not be changed. When I asked him about civil unions, however, he couldn't raise any objections!

Also a few years ago, I told my friend Greg, who is gay, that I don't even have any opposition to same-sex marriages, as long as churches and other religious institutions aren't forced to recognize them. In one of his broadcasts from a few years ago, Sean Hannity warned viewers about a future in which churches that refuse to recognize same-sex marriages lose their tax-exempt status. Greg dismissed Sean Hannity's words as right-wing propaganda.

Vote No on Prop 8.

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» RE: Vote No on Prop 8 Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Vote No on Prop 8 Posted by: Xynyx
» Incest and Polygamy in the Bible Posted by: LeaderofMen
Jesus Discusses Gay Marriage With Pharisee Phat Robertson
Posted by: jimswanson on Oct 16, 2008 8:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Gay Marriage? Haven't They Been Punished Enough?"

Jim Swanson, Los Altos, CA
www.bushleagueofnations.com [For FREE downloads of entire GLBT-friendly book]

Stand tall for GLBT rights. If you live in California please vote NO on Proposition 8.

Having put Bush in office for eight years, America's rightwing Christians can take pride in the horrors inflicted on Iraq's GLBT community and, ironically, on Iraq's Christians.

This and much more is discussed in my deadly serious, but humorous, book, "The Bush League of Nations: The Coalition of the Unwilling, the Bullied and the Bribed – the GOP’s War on Iraq and America," by James A. Swanson (2008, CreateSpace Publishing, 448 pages).

As a gift to patriots everywhere, the entire book can be downloaded for free at www.bushleagueofnations.com

A sidebar in the book (pp. 227-8) contains an exclusive account of Jesus discussing gay marriage with Pharisee Phat Robertson and a group of dusty travelers at a dusty camel stop along a dusty Interstate near dusty Anywhere, Texas. It’s entitled, “Gay Marriage? Haven’t They Been Punished Enough?”

“The Bush League of Nations” is a rich resource for arguments and information to counter the talking points, myths and lies of the extreme right.

I ask for nothing in return, except that you consider using my book to help kick out America's worst president and worst political party ever.

Jim Swanson, Los Altos, CA
www.bushleagueofnations.com

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Proposition 8: The Real Issue
Posted by: lbrlw13 on Oct 16, 2008 9:11 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I for one, am appaled that these religious institutions and individuals have suffiencent support to spew their hatred further to oppress a minority population. What is the real issue here? Is it a question of whether gay people should be allowed to marry eachother? or is it whether people should be allowed to be gay? I think that if you really get down to it, it's the latter.

Why, in a country like the United States, should a lynch mob majority of people even be allowed to restrict the rights of a persecuted minority? How do they call themselves Christians when they judge others and fight for, not against, injustice?

Allowing gay and lesbian people to marry one another will not affect traditional marriage or destroy families. Restricting those rights will not stop gay and lesbian people from being gay and lesbian people, and entering into homosexual relationships. What it will do is help perpetuate a subclass - it will lead to more discrimination against gay and lesbian people, more hours in therapy and more suffering.

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Afraid the gay marriage divorce rate won't be like the straights
Posted by: Landbaron on Oct 16, 2008 9:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If gay marriages go, then we can work on decriminalizing prostitution. These conservatives have to realize that "PEOPLE ARE DIFFERENT". Send your kids to private schools if you don't like it that public schools will be teaching that we're not all the same.

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DANGER, the gays are coming are coming
Posted by: sirios on Oct 16, 2008 9:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
to a neighborhood near you to ruin your already pathetic lives.I believe the problem that the religious and other groups have with gay marriage is FEAR. The most potent form of fear is the demise of the physical entity.Probably the next most potent form of fear would have something to do with sexual energy. Sexual energy is conceptually entertwined with love. marriage can be looked at as a contract to protect love/sex from the fear of loss of love and sexual energy. adding an unknown ,homosexuality, to the illusiory safety net of marriage, is a direct attack on one of the ways that we hide from fear. If gays are allowed to marry then one of our main mechanisims to control fear is wiped out and fear of the unknown is able to run amok,or so we imagine.On a less clinical note, heterosexuals have not set a very good example for the institution of marriage . America has one of the highest divorce rates in the world and children who grow up in "straight" households have become living proponents of hate,greed, conflict with those that dare disagree and terrified of love with out boundaries and form. My final message to those who oppose gay marriage is, MIND YOUR OWN PATHETIC BUSINESS AND STOP JUDGING!

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Sign Wars, piss and blood
Posted by: DaBear on Oct 16, 2008 9:56 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In my Socal exurban city the Yes signs outnumber the No signs... you'd be surprised how car culture influences voting habits around here... you live behind the wheel so your interface with political mob-rules, the mood of the "community" is in what signs are in your view. A local citizen's group did a study for each of the last six elections locally... there was nearly a 1-1 correspondence with the volume of signage and the volume of votes per candidate (Props and local seats... Feds were too large of a proportion to be 1-1 within the margin of error).

So how does this impact No on 8? Simple. The churches round here will give you a box of 50 signs for free. (I know this because I've personally taken 100 boxes and put them in the next town over's recycling center dumpsters--we are at war, you know) No on 8 has no one locally to get a sign from so you have to go to the internet and pay $10 per sign.

Lesson to the opposition? too little too late, not enough funding means you lose (that's a total no-brainer in CA where everyone in politics knows that reality cold), where are the allies outside the "gay community"?

As I told one white yupper-class male polster who came to my door with his blonde white yupper-class wife and baby in tow... Prop 8 isn't about homosexuality, marriage, your sense of morality or even about "correcting an activist Supreme Court overruling the will of the people" (When grilled he didn't seem to know the facts about that prop whatever it was that got struck down as unconstitutional, how it was also known in CA memory as the most bizarre confusing proposition so much so that people couldn't remember what a vote for or against it actually meant and then after felt betrayed and sickened that they had voted "the wrong way"--"will of the people" my hairy-flat-ass). Prop 8 is about your people's lust for a special privileged protected status at the expense of every Other in your community. It's about hatred and evil and destroying the very notion of a Constitutional democracy. If you want to live in America, you'd better fucking deal with the reality that you have to live with people you disagree with and stop trying to silence, disenfranchise and dis-empower anyone who doesn't live exactly as you do. The constitution is about expanding, including Others different from you, not limiting, excluding and creating distorted privileges for a few.

They didn't run away until I added, "if you guys keep up with this sort of hateful, anti-human rights proposition campaign, you best be ready to take some real damage to your culture. There are plenty of us Ex-Xtians who still hurt enough to want to see you people pay for the damage you caused us. Reap what you sow."

That made them scurry away. I went inside and threw up and took a shower. I realize I came very close to grabbing the bat behind the door and taking it to his head in front of his family. But I have had it. I am sick of their cruel bullshit. If they want culture war, and that war comes to my door again, there will be blood. I've done the peacenik thing long enough and where are we now for it? The fascists are bold and they're in power. They need a beat down. Period. It's time we stand up for what's right at all cost. I don't have money to donate to causes, hell, I don't have my own home anymore and half the time I'm hungry too.

But I do have a sense of what's fair and just and what's a democracy and what's not, and I'm sick and tired of tolerating the intolerable while others get rich fat and happy and authoritarian on my ass. I do have two hands, two fists and I'm good with a stick, so I am fully ready to defend what's right with my own blood. I'll go get therapy and anger management later.

So, where are the allies of No on 8? The signs have it.... if the Yes signs win, it'll be time for blood to run.

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Sexual Freedom Is Important
Posted by: Libertine on Oct 16, 2008 10:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In this article Chuck Colson said:

"If sexual freedom is the ultimate liberty, then you have to rewrite the Bill of Rights. This vote on whether we stop the gay marriage juggernaut in California is the Armageddon. We lose this -- we're going to lose in a lot of other ways, including freedom of religion."

My response to him is:

Sexual freedom is very important, as it directly relates to the right to privacy and the right of free association.

I would also advise Colson that religious freedom has two components: freedom OF religion and, no less important, freedom FROM religion. He has every right to practice his religion as he sees fit, but he and others have no right to impose any aspect of religion on others.

The basis for all state and federal laws regulating consensual adult activity are religious in origin. Civil laws regulating American marriage are a place where religious ideas about the "proper" form of intimate relationships have been enforced as "secular" law.

Marriage was a religious institution until the evolution of civil law. Now, we must question whether it would be best to offer everyone the right to marry, or does our constitutional commitment to religious freedom actually require that the government get out of the marriage business altogether?

The First Amendment requires both the disestablishment of religion and protection for the free exercise of religion, which includes all religions and the right not to practice religion as well. If marriage is based on religion, it too, should be disestablished, thus protecting the free exercise of sexuality.

Sexual freedom also has parallels with religious freedom. That is, we aren't born any particular religion that we cannot change -- we choose what, if any, religion we will practice and the right to do so is protected by the Constitution. Likewise, gays and lesbians shouldn't have to justify why they're homosexual in order to enjoy the same freedom in regards to sexual practices. Whether or not homosexuality is a "choice", it should have no bearing on their rights.

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Bar Sinister
Posted by: Crazy H on Oct 16, 2008 10:54 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I had a left handed uncle who was born in 1918. He was punished for it and exhorted to use his right hand.

When his teachers caught him writing with his left hand, they thought he was being willfully disobedient and punished him again.

He developed a stutter and a twitch, had trouble sleeping and became withdrawn and anti-social.

Today, we realize that left-handedness is not a 'lifestyle choice' but rather a it's genetic. With the "best of intentions" my uncle's teachers and family tried to force him to go against his natural inclinations.

Isn't it a terrible thing those ignorant jackasses did to my poor uncle?

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» RE: Bar Sinister Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: Bar Sinister Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: Bar Sinister Posted by: Xynyx
The Issue of gay marriage still hurts Democrats
Posted by: JohnBryansFontaine on Oct 16, 2008 11:14 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Issue of gay marriage still hurts Democrats. The results of the 2004 election still prove this, despite revisionist efforts to claim otherwise. Why should Democrats risk elections on an issue supported basically by a small but intensely vocal minority?

Democrats would rather be concerned with valid issues such as making the economy work again for the middle class and poor, allowing Workers to form Unions through the Employee Free Choice Act, http://www.freechoiceact.org, and creating a health care system that rejects no one.

As to the issue of gay marriage, Democrats believe that civil unions are the answer. And any comparison of civil unions as newer versions of ‘separate but equal’ are rejected by the black leaders such as Obama, Jackson and Sharpton, as well as the vast majority of the African-American public.

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Marriage between one man and one woman is NOT universal!!
Posted by: BreeMass on Oct 16, 2008 11:24 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is not actually a universal norm. There are many places in the world where men marry more than one woman, including in the good ole US of A - you know, those ever righteous Mormons so inflamed by gay marriage? Yeah, them. Muslim men are specificaly allowed by the Quran to have four wives. Tibetans from the land-owning classes practice polyandry, where one woman marries more that one man. There are places in Africa where women can marry other women or even the ghost of a man in order to carry on lineages.

In short, the idea that marriage is limited to "one man and one woman" everywhere in the world but California is patently false as well as ridiculously Amero-centric. Marriage is about love and commitment and the gender of the people involved shouldn't matter to anybody not involved in the relationship.

At it's base, marriage is a legal contract with the state dealing with property rights and rights over children. If you want to infuse it with religion, go right ahead. If you don't want to marry gay people in your churches, don't. But how dare you inject your religious values into the marriages of others? I don't give a shit about your marriage, what the hell do you care about mine?

**This is a re-post from a response to an above comment, I know, but I wanted it out there on it's own - hope nobody minds! :)

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mms
Posted by: shd1230 on Oct 16, 2008 1:55 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe the time has come when dragging a dead mule through the room won't change anything. Why should anyone give a tinkers dam whether gay people marry--most straight people should probably not be allowed to marry when it comes to that. Is this a free country? DON'T ANSWER THAT!

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Protection of marriage?
Posted by: austex_chris on Oct 16, 2008 3:07 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I always think it is ridiculous when people claim that such a law is intended to protect marriage. If protecting marriage was so important to these people why doesn't the proposition include things like:

Anyone found cheating on their spouse cannot receive the full amount they normally would in a divorce settlement.

or

Anyone convicted of assaulting or raping their spouse loses all parental priviledges and receives nothing in a divorce.

Gender is only one small aspect of marriage, there are a whole lot of other things that people can do to undermine marriage.

How about any man caught by police soliciting sex in a bathroom must give 70% of his estate to his wife in a divorce?

Or how about an act that makes any couple applying for a marriage license take a one day course on how to communicate with their spouse?

Nope, these people just care about gender for some strange reason.

What's even more dumb is that there is no evidence that there would even be that many gay marriages. In other countries that allow gay marriage they only make up a small percentage of total marriages. Sure, there will be a large number of people at first, but it will die down and gay people will be getting divorced at the same rate as the so-called marriage protecting zealots are right now.

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When A Man Loves A.....Man?
Posted by: penobscotdziekuje@yahoo.com on Oct 16, 2008 4:53 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
By now most people know that Prop. 8 is on the ballot in California to define marriage between the sexes.
And since I work at a newspaper many letters to the editor comment on this bizarre proposal, to present it to voters who are raising a furor over the the rights of gays to get married. Many of the letters cite biblical references and their own personal marriage stories and they suggest Prop. 8 pass.
The letter writers say shame for our paper to criticize it, when we said in an edtorial that California is much better than that, to pass this backward-thinking, draconian measure to define who can marry whom.
Most of the letters seem to be written by those who are over 60-the rapidly aging baby boomers and have been married a long time.
People also know that California is not like the rest of the country. Out here we even have gay clergypersons complete with molestation scandals. Just ask Cardinal Roger Mahony, whose archdiocese had to fend off a lengthy investigation over sexual abuse of altar boys at his church. It was awfully ugly and incurred the wrath of the Pope.
I'm not saying all clergy are gay. That doesn't bother me. I have nothing against gays. They are among some of the most congenial people around. They should be entitled to marry and I'm sure this type of union was around during Jesus' time.
As Frank Sinatra said in a verse-"all is fair and love and war-" and we might as well get used to this. It will be hard for Prop. 8 to pass. And why must we fight over a person's right to marry whomever they want? Don't we know that divorces are at an all-time high? Nothing is permanent except change.
Last week in Los Angeles an unemployed man shot and killed his entire family because he was caught in the vicious rat race which drives many of us to wacky things like become hooked on drugs, commit suicide or see a shrink.
Only in America.

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Should parents be allowed to restrict potential future adoptees to cross-gendered married couples?
Posted by: aouie01 on Oct 16, 2008 6:36 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In California adoption agencies cannot discriminate on the basis of the genders of the adopting couples. If parents want such discrimination in the case that for some reason they are no longer able to care for their children (death or otherwise losing custody), then should the government facilitate such a discriminatory preference.

Addressing such issues in favor of allowing parents such rights over their children on these issues can help minimize the hate between those who detest same-gendered coupling and the presumed lifestyles of such couples, and those who are strongly detest such discriminatory preferences. But, then we should probably also allow other similar concerns and biases like specifying preferred religions, diets (veg / non-veg), class (affluent / non-affluent), tattooed / non-tattooed, etc. If a compatible match is not found after a good faith attempt (subjective and allows a lot of room for abuse by the likes of the California legislature, courts and public), then it would make sense for the government to not have to bear additional expenses, if other potential adopters not matching the preferred discriminatory criteria are available and willing to adopt specific children.

Sincerely,
Aouie

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Democrats shameful on gay marriage/gay rights (repost)
Posted by: eaajdjholton on Oct 18, 2008 10:49 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Pardon the repost but I figured my point was getting lost at the end of a long thread (I know ego ego ego...........)

Democrats have been shameful on the issue of gay marriage. They have been just as shameful on the issue of gay rights of any kind.

Remember who authored "Don't ask, Don't tell"? Immediately after he entered office Clinton went back on his promise to stand up for gay rights by ending discrimination in the armed forces. I mean immediately! He lost all my respect as a leader at that point in time--he was still a smart man and it can be argued that he did some good for the country--but as a commander-in-chief?

As the supreme commander of the armed forces all he had to do was say "eliminate the discrimination and allow gays to serve equally" but he did not--first he waffled--had to study--then he deferred to his subordinates in the military hierarchy and did what they felt was prudent as opposed to what was right! What an awesome leader!

Imagine if Kennedy had done what was prudent--where would the state of civil rights for blacks be? Clinton took what could have been a huge step toward ending discrimination against gays and threw it away--set the movement back years from where it should have been based on what his campaign rhetoric was.

Should that have been a surprise? Hasn't that been the history of the Democratic party when it comes to gay rights? When they need the money from wealthy gays (arguably one of the wealthiest demographics in America) they promise great things--as soon as they get what they want gays go back to being second class citizens.

How long are people in the gay rights movement going to put up with the c'mere c'mere c'mere g'way g'way g'way attitude of the Democratic party? At some point doesn't it just become too much to withstand? At some point shouldn't the movement stand up demand better than the "good enough" that they get from the Democratic party?

Sometimes I get very discouraged when I think of the history of the movements that my generation has inherited--Selma, Montgomery, Stonewall--and how we have sacrificed that history on the altar of expediancy. When will we stand up, as some of our parents did, and say "this is wrong and we won't stand down until you make it right". I, for one, am tired of always having to settle for "at least it's better than it was" when it is still wrong!

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Feminism and Same-Sex Marriage
Posted by: VMRH on Oct 21, 2008 3:29 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a feminist, I support California's Proposition 8, a citizen initiative to reassert that Californians define marriage as being between a man and a woman. Californians thought this was settled in 2000, when a proposition with the same wording was approved by a solid majority of voters.

Heterosexual marriage is a feminist ideal. At first blush, that position seems untenable: marriage in many traditional cultures is akin to slavery, with a young girl "married" against her will to a man who will treat her as a domestic servant and sex slave. She may have little or no rights in her position as wife, with her life--and health and death--almost literally in the hands of her "husband." Feminist scholars have rightly descried this conception of "marriage" as a protection racket, where the protectee has more to fear from the protector than anyone else. I agree with this feminist critique of misogynist ideas about heterosexual marriage.

However, just as Blue State Feminism has no right to monopolize the term "feminism," with Red State Feminists equally entitled to the feminist mantle, so, too, we must not permit "marriage" to be monopolized by a subgroup that may define the term to suit their own ends. Those who have contempt for women and cannot treat them as equals have thought to define marriage as domestic/sex slavery of women by men. BUT IT IS NOT. That is not what marriage means at all, and these groups have no right to define marriage as the polar opposite of what it really means. We suggest that another term be used to describe this degraded definition of marriage--let's call it narriage. Narriage is evil.

But heterosexual marriage is not only not evil, it is good. And it represents a feminist ideal. Women live in a world in which men also live. Men and women together have produced every living human being. In turn, every living human being is flesh and blood kin to one woman and one man. Indeed, might we not think that being human means, at the least, being kin to a human man and a human woman? And that if we were not to be so, if that were even possible, then we would not be fully human. A man and a woman gave each of us our life and our humanity.

Furthermore, that man and that woman have an obligation to raise the human being to whom they gave life and humanity. Human life is inescapably a joint male-female project. It is the most meaningful project in which humanity is engaged. And it calls from a man and a woman the highest form of cooperation possible--a true and loving partnership of those who will always be different but always be equals. It is the most radical and most extreme form of toleration and respect for differences that can be found in mortality. Likewise, if this true and loving partnership between different equals is possible--and let's call it marriage--there can be no higher form of respect and valuation of women. If there is heterosexual marriage on the planet (excluding narriage, of course), then feminism is alive and well, also. The fate of feminism is integrally linked to the possibility of heterosexual marriage. To support heterosexual marriage is to support feminism. To undermine heterosexual marriage is to undermine feminism. (I have nothing against domestic partnerships of same-sex couples, roomates, old friends, a parent and a grown child, etc., to allow persons to organize their affairs.)

When heterosexual marriage is but one option among many for organizing humanity, we predict that men will decide that women simply are not necessary to the human race. The vision that a man and a woman could be true and loving friends, faithful to one another, equals in the context of eternal difference, will be lost over time. Heterosexual marriage must be considered a very special, very important, very vulnerable feminist ideal.

Red State Feminists

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