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Rights and Liberties

Flight Rage Incident Reveals the Dark Side of Osteen's 'Prosperity Gospel'

By Barbara Ehrenreich, Barbaraehrenreich.com. Posted August 13, 2008.


The wife of get-rich-now pastor Joel Osteen faces a civil trial that embodies the sense of entitlement of those who preach the gospel of prosperity.
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For heartsick former supporters of John Edwards, this week offers an edifying tabloid alternative: the civil trial of Victoria Osteen, wife of megachurch minister and televangelist Joel Osteen, for assaulting a flight attendant. The issue was what is sometimes described as a "spill" and sometimes as a "stain" on the armrest of Mrs. Osteen's first-class seat, which the flight attendant refused to clean up with sufficient alacrity because she was busy assisting others aboard. Although there is no evidence that the spill consisted of tuberculosis-ridden phlegm or avian flu-rich bird poop, Osteen was mightily pissed, allegedly pushing and punching the flight attendant and making such a ruckus that the Osteen family had to be removed from the flight.

I would be more sympathetic to the flight attendant, Sharon Brown, if she weren't demanding 10 percent of Osteen's fortune to compensate for injuries including a "loss of faith" and hemorrhoids somehow incurred from a frontal assault. But it isn't easy being a flight attendant in this era of layoffs, pay cuts and packed planes -- certainly not compared to being a millionaire on her way to Vail. Whatever dubious substance Victoria Osteen faced on that first-class armrest, she should have been able to derive some serenity from the fact that the church she co-pastors draws 40,000 worshippers a week and that her husband has been dubbed "America's Most Influential Christian."

Just another celebrity meltdown set off by insufficiently servile servers? Recall Russell Crowe's 2005 assault with a telephone on a SoHo hotel clerk, or Naomi Campbell's attacks with similar weapons -- a cell phone and a Blackberry -- on members of her own staff. But there's a curious antecedent here that Christians would do well to ponder: In 1997, another megachurch pastor and leading televangelist, Robert Schuller, was prosecuted for an eerily similar first-class tantrum.

Schuller, like the Osteens, is a proponent of positive thinking -- the doctrine that God intends for you to be rich, healthy and generally "great" right here in this life. While politicos have focused on the Christian Right, there's been far less attention to the fast-growing brand of Christianity Light, also represented by televangelists Joyce Meyer, Benny Hinn and Creflo Dollar. Positive thinking is the theology of the modern megachurch, and it avoids all mention of sin -- including the "sins" of abortion and homosexuality -- lest such "negative" topics turn off any potential converts or "seekers." Its promise is that you can have anything you want simply by "visualizing" it or, as Osteen puts it, "believing for it" -- a doctrine derided by some Christian critics as "name it and claim it."

Schuller faced a different biohazard on his first-class flight in '97: cheese. When the flight attendant gave him a fruit-and-cheese plate for dessert, Schuller insisted that the cheese be removed. The flight attendant refused, explaining, reasonably enough, that all the fruit had been plated with cheese and could be contaminated, from a cheese-allergy sufferer's point of view. But the pastor was simply on a low-fat diet and did not want to see the cheese on his plate, so he got out of his seat and accosted the flight attendant, shaking him violently by the shoulders. Schuller ended up paying a $1,100 fine and undergoing six months of police supervision.

In the theology of Christian positive thinking, "everything happens for a reason." The Osteens may conclude that the divine intention was to prod them into emulating Joyce Meyer and Creflo Dollar by investing in a private jet. But there's another possible message from on high: that this brand of Christianity fosters a distinctly un-Christian narcissism.

Consider the ways the Lord works in the life of the Osteens, as recounted in Joel Osteen's book Your Best Life Now, which has sold 4 million copies and is graced by a back cover photo of the smiling couple. Acting through Victoria, who kept "speaking words of faith and victory" on the subject, Joel was led to build the family "an elegant home." On other occasions, God intervened to save Joel from a speeding ticket and to get him not only a good parking spot but "the premier spot in that parking lot." Why God did not swoop down with a sponge and clean up the offending stain on the armrest remains a mystery, because Osteen's deity is less the Master of the Universe than an obliging factotum.

Plenty of Christians have already made the point that the positive thinking of Christianity Light is demeaning to God, and I leave them to pursue this critique. More importantly, from a secular point of view, it's dismissive of other humans, and not only flight attendants. If a person is speeding, shouldn't he get a ticket to deter him from endangering others? And if Osteen gets the premier parking spot, what about all the other people consigned to the remote fringes of the lot? Christianity, at best, is about a sacrificial love for others, not about getting to the head of the line.

If the Osteens' brand of religion is what flight attendant Sharon Brown lost faith in as a result of being manhandled by on that plane to Vail, then the suit should be dropped, because Victoria Osteen has already done her enough of a favor.

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See more stories tagged with: joel osteen, prosperity gospel

Barbara Ehrenreich is the author of 13 books, including the New York Times best-seller Nickel and Dimed. A frequent contributor to the New York Times, Harpers and the Progressive, she is a contributing writer to Time magazine. She lives in Florida.

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It sickens me
Posted by: odie-wan on Aug 13, 2008 12:55 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This brand of "religion" sickens me. I have little faith in organised religion as it is and stories like this make me even more determined to stay away from these charlatans.

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» RE: It sickens me Posted by: rhinojos
» What really sickens me Posted by: LionHeart
» RE: What really sickens me... Posted by: clvngodess
» RE: What really sickens me Posted by: mainspark
» RE: What really sickens me Posted by: progressive-life
» RE: What really sickens me Posted by: LionHeart
» Holy Lawsuit, Batman! Posted by: edgar1
» The only religion here Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming
» RE: It sickens me Posted by: annekarina
» RE: It sickens me Posted by: mpreb658@earthlink.net
Not surprised.
Posted by: HughScott on Aug 13, 2008 2:11 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
During my younger adult years (I'm 73), I attended a Methodist church with my wife and three kids. Now, 40 years later, I'm a God-fearing agnostic.

I think that's much closer to what Jesus would like in human beings than the greed-driven, hypocritical bullshit espoused by Joel Osteen.

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» Oxymoron Posted by: edgar1
» RE: Oxymoron, yourself! Posted by: Nightstallion
» RE: Oxymoron Posted by: drsivana99
» phrase of the week Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming
Maybe God is a socialist.
Posted by: andabottleof_rum on Aug 13, 2008 2:53 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Religion can be politicized in any way. In fact while the Osteens and others like them find ways to twist Christianity, borne of 2000-years-old texts, into a pro-capitalist dogma, it is equally possible, if not more likely, that a reading of the New Testament would inform a politics closer to socialism or pacifism than to capitalism. There's stuff about loving your enemy, turning your cheek and offering another target when attacked, rich men can't go to heaven, the last shall be first and the first shall be last, worry not for tomorrow and live day by day.

The attitude behind such ideas does not seem to resemble the materialistic, aggressive, success-driven, forward-looking values espoused by capitalism.

"The meek shall inherit the earth." From a capitalist perspective, meek people are losers; Social Darwinism selects against them in the competition for wealth, prestige, and influence.

Then again, establishment Christianity has never seriously put these biblical ideas into practice, as they are antithetical to social hierarchy.

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» RE: Maybe God is a socialist. Posted by: downstreamer
the selfish gospel
Posted by: zippoflash on Aug 13, 2008 3:33 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These people, by saying things happen for a reason and that god rewards their prosperity just goes to reinforce a personal and political selfishness that deems the poor and the unlucky as deserving of their fate. Nasty Social-Darwinism disguised as Christianity. No wonder the flight attendant was attacked. She didn't recognize her 'place' in their scheme of things.

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They are not "Christians"
Posted by: terradea42 on Aug 13, 2008 4:32 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Please. Let's call these political hypocrites what they are: "Paulitions" or "Christianists." I'm sure there are some people who preach, practice and portray the Jesus Christ of the Bible, and they should not be lumped in with the chaff described in this article.

Seriously, why do people continue to give trash like Osteen and his wife money???

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» RE: They are not "Christians" Posted by: Steve Adair
» RE: They are not "Christians" Posted by: QuestionAuthority
» RE: They are not "Christians" Posted by: rhinojos
maineman
Posted by: maineman on Aug 13, 2008 4:44 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Look no further than their massive home in houston in its most prestigious neighborhood to turn your stomach. How people buy in to these principles is beyond logic.

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» Business As Usual Posted by: edgar1
» ...beyond logic Posted by: Steve Adair
» RE: ...beyond logic Posted by: Dboy
» RE: ...beyond logic Posted by: Steve Adair
The Olsteens preach an extreme version of what lots of churches preach
Posted by: Jasonix on Aug 13, 2008 5:04 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The televangelists preach that if you give 10% of your gross income to them, God will make you rich in return. That sounds extreme, but I've heard plenty of Baptist and Pentecostal pastors make slightly toned-down promises of the same ilk - if you "tithe," then God will preserve your middle class status.

The churches are institutions built on the easy-motoring, post-World War 2 American prosperity just like everything else. Despite the Elmer Gantry stereotypes of rural rubes, the typical evangelical Christian is a baby boomer mom just past her "soccer-mom" years - the church is a social club that provides services as varied as hiking clubs and cooking circles. Now that Americans aren't the most prosperous people in the world anymore with tons of disposable income, the churches are losing money, and the leadership is faced with the challenge of keeping their institutions afloat in the ensuing economic carnage.

They could, of course, decide to actually follow the New Testament, scale down their buildings and feel-good social events for Baby Boomers, and make communities dedicated to mutual support of each other. They could be the nucleus of a new emerging post-prosperity America, where life is local and survival depends on people banding together and tackling the tough challenges of post-modern life directly by re-instituting local agriculture, retrofitting their houses for sustainable living, sharing resources, etc.

But nah. Hey, the pastors want a slice of the American dream, too - and don't want to be bothered by the fact that the American Dream is nothing but a dream now. So pony up your 10% - your pastor needs that vacation to Disney World, and your church needs that Powerpoint slide projector.

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is there anyone who still believes...
Posted by: aislinnluv on Aug 13, 2008 5:22 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
that "churches" should be tax-exempt? maybe i should start my own religion and apply for tax-exempt status? i have some strongly-held beliefs that i might be able to pass off as "dogma". and i could easily assert that anyone who doesn't concur with my own thinking is doomed. that's usually enough, isn't it? oh, wait.... i have to develop an obnoxious personality first. sorry. back to the drawing board.

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» these ministries.... Posted by: jmndodge
» RE: is there anyone who... Posted by: ranchero42
It Is About Positive Thinking
Posted by: pinnacle on Aug 13, 2008 5:26 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You people are so full of it that your eyes are turning brown! Robert Schuller wrote a book entitled 'If It's Going To Be, It's Up To Me'. What could be more true? The fact is that those who believe in themselves and overcome their fears of failure and rejection are the ones who succeed ---- no matter how one measures success. Another of Schuller's books revealed how he was able to get the financial backing to build the his church in southern California. He didn't have the money and he didn't know a single contributor who could provide all the money required. What did he do? He got off his behind and went to work! If you want what the other guy has, the bible tells you it is a sin to steal it. It isn't sin to have it, you just have to work to get it. That doesn't mean working for someone else. Exercise your own brain and go for it. Maybe that's what Joel is doing.

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» RE: It Is About Positive Thinking Posted by: mandiwrite
» not a match Posted by: aislinnluv
» RE: It Is About Positive Thinking Posted by: Live Gently
» RE: It Is About Positive Thinking Posted by: mpreb658@earthlink.net
» RE: It Is About... Posted by: ranchero42
Otto .
Posted by: otto on Aug 13, 2008 5:45 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Right on! I'm much more at home with people like Mother Therese (not unlike Ghandi), Jean Vanier and his "living with the handicapped" way of life in L'Arche communities, Dorothy Day, Jim Wallace and Sojournors in Washington, John Howard Griffin, the Berrigans, etc. They, like Jesus, seem to identify more with the poor and marginalized.

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» RE: Otto . Posted by: edgar1
If you want to know what's important to God...
Posted by: Romans1 on Aug 13, 2008 6:12 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Read Luke 18: 9-14

"He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and regarded others with contempt: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, was praying thus, ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people: thieves, rogues, adulterers, or even like this tax
collector. I fast twice a week; I give a tenth of all my income.’ But the tax collector,
standing far off, would not even look up to heaven, but was beating his breast and saying,
‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his home justified rather than the other; for all who exalt themselves will be humbled, but all who humble themselves will be exalted.”

So look, it's not about whether you give to the poor. The Pharisee did that and Jesus rejected him. Obviously, it's not about thinking positively about yourself. The Pharisee did that too.

It's about whether you have come to the understanding that you are a sinner in need of God's mercy. That is all. Christ died and rose from the grave to take the penalty for your sins (and mine, especially mine, I need Him worse than you do).

Come to God on your face and beg Him to save you. He will do just that.

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» Judging Posted by: truthlover
» RE: Judging Posted by: Romans1
» spot on... Posted by: aislinnluv
» RE: spot on... Posted by: Romans1
» RE: spot on... Posted by: helenwheels
» Outrageous! WE are Lord? Posted by: truthlover
» God is dead Posted by: GuitarBill
» RE: God is dead Posted by: annekarina
"Blessed are the poor in spirit"
Posted by: Romans1 on Aug 13, 2008 6:16 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jesus meant those who recognize their own sinfulness and helplessness regardlss of class or wealth.

Some who came to Jesus were poor and marginalized and some were affluent. Some who rejected Jesus were poor and marginalized and some were affluent.

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Thanks, Barbara
Posted by: jmmartin on Aug 13, 2008 6:21 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What an excellent piece! You hit the nail on the head. A minor cavil might be expresses vis-a-vis your doubting the stewardess's plea for ten percent of Victoria Osteen's net worth. In Texas, you have to plead punitive damages if you expect to ask a jury to give them to you, but I suspect an ulterior motive on her part (or the part of her attorneys): they want to do a Grassley job on the Osteens. Simply exposing their status as super rich capitalists can only embarrass them and, who knows, perhaps subject them to the kind of scrutiny the Iowa senator has brought to other mega-churches.

Moreover, the Osteen message is not Christianity. It is just the opposite. Jebus is supposed to have said, "A rich man will no sooner enter the Kingdom than a camel shall pass through the eye of a needle." Substitute a Mercedes Benz for the camel, and you've got the Osteens. Although an atheist, I hope there really is a hell -- for I am certain Joel and Victoria will be burning in it.

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» just a note... Posted by: aislinnluv
Crimea River
Posted by: Crimea River on Aug 13, 2008 6:36 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have the utmost respect for Barbara Ehrenreich’s work – “Nickel and Dimed” was required reading for some of my students last semester. And though I enjoy self-righteous snark as much as the next Alternet subscriber, she does the Prosperity Gospel’s collective obscenities no justice by recycling this tired angle and lumping Joel Osteen in with his criminal counterparts. Consider me one of HIS “heartsick supporters,” rather than a vacuous tabloid slag. The Edwards Affair actually has plenty of tabloid spectacle to it, considering it was The Enquirer itself that broke the story. (And try watching his “Father of the Year” speech with a straight face now…)

Victoria’s airline hissy was probably just that, and the Osteens got off the flight and paid a $3,000 fine for her questionable behavior, and perhaps will be on the hook for a bit more to the plaintiff, whose reported background and motives don’t pass the smell test. I certainly feel immensely more human knowing that even Robert Schuller can have a REALLY bad day…But there’s no factual connection between Victoria’s alleged poor judgment and her husband’s ministry. This bandwagon approach is lazy journalism, and the posters here who are jumping on it and going further by trashing all Christians and Biblical theology are stunning in their ignorance and intolerance.

While Joel might side-step Biblical taboos such as homosexuality and abortion in his preaching, I find it refreshing that he’s not willing to condemn anyone, and his decision to avoid those contradictions is in the hopes of bringing people closer to the teachings of Jesus – rather the point of the gospel, wouldn’t you say? Fire-and-brimstone is one approach, but thank god it’s not the only one, and sin as a theological turn-off is not the point. Joel’s preaching focuses on love, compassion and redemption and, far from the allegations of his critics, he quotes scripture extensively, discusses sin, and promotes the Bible. I know, because I’ve been a fence-straddling agnostic who accidentally discovered him on TV and now watches him regularly, embraces his style of preaching, and has started reading the Bible (though not as regularly do I understand it – it’s quite a hefty piece of literature).

Joel’s books, on the other hand, are naïve and sweetly simple – certainly nothing new under the sun. But they’re bestsellers for a reason – they appeal to people’s positive yearnings, with a “God helps those who help themselves” bootstrap message, and what’s wrong with that? And so what if he makes some money off them, even millions? Any reason he should live in a van down by the river after he’s been on the New York Times Bestsellers list twice?

If Victoria needs to get real and get her grace and humility on, so be it, but don’t let’s all find another excuse to take a self-satisfied shite on Christians, the Bible and sound bites of Christian theology without doing some homework or by treating this very unfortunate incident as some logical extension of “SSDD.” Not all TV pastors are out to fleece their flocks, and their parishioners aren’t all empty-headed narcissists – just like atheists, agnostics and alternative media mavens aren’t all dope-smoking, over-educated assholes. Check out The Wittenburg Door.com and other such sites to fuel your constructive outrage for the real shameless charlatans (Benny Hinn, et al) who need to have their broadcast licenses yanked and their finances given a rubber-gloved probe by the feds, for starters.

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» RE: Crimea River Posted by: owlsliveintrees
struck by lightning
Posted by: zooeyhall on Aug 13, 2008 7:02 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I really wish some of these creeps would get struck by lightning the next time they are out on the golf course. A real message from god---right?

I have had some of these types in my family--they think because they are closer to god that any good fortune they have is due to that fact.

And there is a dark side to all of this. If god rewards you with wealth and prosperity for your faith, then what about those who don't have either wealth or prosperity? The dark implication is that you are somehow evil or not deserving of god's largesse.

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she's LUCKY - or SIMPLY RICH.
Posted by: BlueBerry PickN on Aug 13, 2008 7:10 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
when I was returning from the bathroom on ONE trans-continental 'cattle class' AirFrance flight, we experienced turbulence.

as I hesitated to enter my seat because the geriatric gentleman in the aisle seat... the bitchy attendant snapped, "GET INTO YOUR SEAT & stop 'wandering the cabin'!"

wandering the cabin?! huh?? I only went left & around because the aisle between the bathroom & my seat was blocked by the attendants taking up the finished trays... My partner & I were bewildered.

I pointed out that his table was still down & he had an empty food tray on it & I COULD NOT GET INTO THE SEAT.

at that point, she demanded I "GET INTO MY SEAT, NOW!" I asked if she could *take* the tray so I could.

She snapped that I should "DO AS I WAS TOLD"

I pointed out that it wasn't my fault she was a bad waitress in a lousy service & that if SHE wanted to climb over a geriatric to get into the seat she could. & waived my right hand vaguely... she told me I was THREATENING HER & asked if I wanted Security to deal with me.

At this point I PICKED UP THE TRAY so I could get into the seat & tripped over he geriatric arthritic gentleman.

2 hours later, I was shaken awake by a stranger in uniform who demanded if I was the person indicated by my seat placement.

I asked 'who wants to know? & who the hell are you?'

"none of your business, answer the question"

"who the hell are you to ask me anything?"

"I'm the Purser, don't make me get Security"

at this point, my partner awoke & drowsily confirmed who I was.

I asked, "& where is this information going?"

"Interpol, we document people like you".

HUH?!? We fully expected to be escorted off the aircraft.

When we landed, the attendant opened the overhead cargo & a large package dropped on the head of the geriatric gentleman.

NOTE TO THOSE TRAVELLING BY AIR FRANCE -who never answered any of my complaint letters:
"I GUESS I SHOULD SPRING FOR FIRST-CLASS TICKETS."

┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄
BlueBerry Pick'n
can be found @
ThisCanadian
┄┄
"We, two, form a Multitude" ~ Ovid.
┄┄
"Silent Freedom is Freedom Silenced"
┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄

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» RE: she's LUCKY - or SIMPLY RICH. Posted by: helenwheels
You don't know who to root for...
Posted by: markaxinn on Aug 13, 2008 7:13 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The pushy, sanctimonious wife of the mega-preacher vs. the greedy, bossy, flight attendant who's more into control than service.

Pity both sides cannot lose the case.

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Let he who is without sin cast the first stone
Posted by: taxidriver on Aug 13, 2008 7:20 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Actually, I sort of respect the Osteens for going to trial. It would've been far easier to reach an out-of-court settlement than to risk a public trial and the slings and arrows cast by judgmental journalists. Yes, it sounds like Victoria "lost it" and got pushy. Who hasn't had a bad day? But does this one moment somehow paint her with a scarlet letter? (Should she be forced from now until eternity to wear an A for assaulter?)

I don't really go for the Osteens' Christianity-lite, and maybe they're too eager to enjoy the fruits of their success. But I'm not quite ready to pitch them into the fires of hell--and they're a considerable improvement over the Bakers, the Swaggarts, and other exploitative and hypocritical televangelists.

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» Toothy Salvation Posted by: edgar1
» RE: I agree Posted by: taxidriver
Christianity is the dogma for controling the crowd
Posted by: sharloch on Aug 13, 2008 7:26 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Christianity is the dogma for controlling the mob. Everything else about it is just a way to justify its existence. Spirituality can live in any religion, morality can exist without religion, evil is a natural complement of goodness (and we all possess it, the preachers and the popes not excluded). So what else is new?

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What would Jesus think.......
Posted by: Spiritgirl on Aug 13, 2008 7:30 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This new brand of "Christianity" is just another ponzi scheme. While enriching their own coffers, they keep the "good sheep" in line with promises of good if only they would continue to pray, so that when things don't go well for the the sheep of course it's their own fault (they obviously don't have enough faith, prayer, etc. ), in the meantime these "pastors" have their hands in the pockets of the good sheep!

Religion once again the opiate of the masses! I wonder what Jesus would think of these "pimps in the pulpit"!

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» RE: What would Jesus think....... Posted by: drsivana99
Would Jesus condone gambling?
Posted by: vasumurti on Aug 13, 2008 7:43 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Although gambling is not explicitly forbidden in the Bible, it does prey upon the individual’s desire for worldly riches. This desire for immediate wealth and self-aggrandizement is contrary to the spirit of New Testament teaching.

Jesus taught the multitudes to seek the eternal treasures in heaven rather than pursue temporary, earthly gain. He insisted upon the self-sacrifice and renunciation of earthly possessions and family ties and duties. (Matthew 6:19-21, 6:24-34, 8:21-22, 10:34-39, 19:20-21,29; Luke 9:57-62, 12:51-53, 14:25-26,33; James 5:1-3)

Jesus had no interest in worldly disputes over money and property. (Luke 12:13-14) He taught that life is meant for more than the accumulation of material goods. He condemned those who lay up treasures for themselves, but are not rich towards God. (Luke 12:15-21) In his parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, Jesus expressed concern for materialistic persons (Luke 16:19-31).

Jesus taught that it is hard for those attached to earthly riches to enter the kingdom of God. (Matthew 19:16-24; Mark 10:17-23; Luke 18:18-25) His apostles lead lives of voluntary poverty; sharing their possessions with one another. Those among the brethren who did not do so were condemned. (Acts 2:44, 5:1-11)

"He who loves his life will lose it," taught Jesus, "and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life...For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" (Matthew 16:26; Mark 8:36; Luke 9:25; John 12:25)

In Paul’s words, "Piety with contentment is great gain indeed; for we brought nothing into the world and, obviously, we can carry nothing out. When we have food and clothing, we shall be content with these. Those who are eager to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into numerous thoughtless and hurtful cravings that plunge people into destruction and ruin. "For the love of money is the root of all evil. In striving for it, some have wandered away from the faith...But you, O man of God, shun these things and go after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness." (I Timothy 6:6-11)

Gambling preys upon the people of lower income. The National Commission of Gambling estimated in 1983 that there were over a million compulsive gamblers nationwide. The Commission predicted that as gambling gradually becomes legal across the country, this figure will eventually reach three million.

The first treatment center for compulsive gamblers was built outside Baltimore, Maryland, in 1982. Compulsive gamblers often run into enormous financial difficulties—borrowing or even stealing from others, including their own families.

Heavy debt becomes a hard fact of life for compulsive gamblers. They sleep poorly, and become indifferent towards eating and affection. Tense and irritable, they often drink, and may even consider suicide.

Since the advent of legalized gambling, per capita crime in the Atlantic City area has tripled. A police check of records at different casinos there wound over one million dollars loaned to 25 underworld figures.

One survey of police enforcement of gambling laws found that 80 percent of the police believe profits from illegal gambling are used to finance other illegal activities, such as loan-sharking. In half of the cities surveyed, local independent criminal organizations were said to control gambling operations.

Conservative Protestants have traditionally taken a stand against gambling. The Puritans of Massachusetts enacted America’s first law against gambling in 1638. In 1682, the Quakers in Pennsylvania passed their own law against gambling and "such like enticing, vain, and evil sports and games." During the period from 1830 to 1860, lotteries were banned across America. By 1908, nearly every state in the nation had banned horse racing.

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» not directly, but... Posted by: vasumurti
» RE: Would Jesus condone gambling? Posted by: drsivana99
Magical thinking: it's not just for witches & wizards anymore!
Posted by: crazyquilt on Aug 13, 2008 7:45 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I hear a lot of outrage over how Mme Osteen acted, although that type of self-important behavior seems almost a byword of American culture. Of course, the problem isn't the behavior -- after all, there seems to be no stigma against characterizing the flight attendant as a gold-digging woman with delusions of real authority. The problem is the hypocrisy; she hardly "turned the other cheek."

Of course, it's easy to demonize Christians. After all, they're the dominant religious group in the US, as most of them will be happy to remind you. But, in this narcissistic game of "name it and claim it," they're no different than witches.

Witches?

Witches.

What's magic, other than a glorified version of name it & claim it? Sure, witches ask different spiritual factotums (factota?) but the sense of entitlement and the belief that "there are no coincidences" is identical. Ask any Pagan artist, musician, craftsperson, or event organizer: Pagans are great at saying how things should be done, criticizing them when they aren't done right, and doing rituals to make sure everything turns out as desired -- but when it comes to real work or monetary outlay? Forget it!

I'm not pointing this out merely to dog on Wiccans or any of the other endlessly shifting subgroups of Neopaganism. Been there, done that, and created the comic. Narcissism and viewing the world as a place where simple saying the right words to the right people gets wishes fulfilled is a far broader and more invasive tendency. Now, I would argue that it's particularly obvious in religious contexts wherein there is Someone to appeal to, but the entitlement meme is pervasive and pernicious. Further, it's rooted in narcissism, which is the dark side of the emphasis of the individual over the collective which has its roots in the Western Enlightenment.

However, until that narcissism is recognized and confronted head on, and a healthy course is charted between the community and individual, the more communitarian messages of most religions and progressive social movements will be at a significant disadvantage, because most people find it far easier to act for "me" over "we."

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The crime of hypocrisy
Posted by: Karina on Aug 13, 2008 7:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If the flight attendant was suing *only* for loss of faith, I believe that she could initiate a class action against the Osteens and televangelism as a whole. They prey on people's fear and illness to line their own pockets, and exhibit the antithesis of the message of Jesus. Televangelism and much of modern (US) christianity is based on fear mongering and hypocrisy, not on faith and love. Jesus threw the money lenders out of the temple after all.

I hope there is some other wordly atonement for televangelists. I'd like to see Benny Hinn explain to his god how he promised healing in exchange for donations, so that people like my grandfather, the sole example I've seen of what 'true christianity' would probably look like and clinging to any hope he could find as my grandmother lay slowly dying in the next room, wrote check after check to that bastard. He promised them healing, that god would bless them for their generosity.

ANYONE who holds themselves up to the moral high ground of claiming to represent god is a hypocrite and a liar. Frankly if god has a message for me, I suspect the shrubbery by my front door will burst into flames before s/he sends the likes of Osteen and Hinn to deliver it.

Signed,
The youngest daughter of a drunk, abusive, cruel god-fearing southern Baptist minister

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Get Rid Of The Tax Exemption
Posted by: sunlakedude on Aug 13, 2008 8:13 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When will our country wake up and stop subsidizing these charlatans? The constitution promises that the government is supposed to keep a "hands-off" approach to religion (in spite of arguments to the contrary put forward by the Religious Right) but it says nothing about not taxing the income of these organizations. The tax code exempts churches or any hybrid thereof because they are "non profit" but I doubt the high living lifestyles of these televangelists would pass muster if someone took a good hard look at them. It's time to start taxing them. It might go a long way to paying off our enormous Bush-caused budget deficit.

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» RE: Get Rid Of The Tax Exemption Posted by: sunlakedude
» RE: Get Rid Of The Tax Exemption Posted by: sunlakedude
» RE: Get Rid Of The Tax Exemption Posted by: sunlakedude
One church and each has one "True God" = 100,000 one "True Gods"
Posted by: symcokid on Aug 13, 2008 8:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If this USofA was founded, (stolen), on the principles of Christianity and Der Bush is a Christian we are in a world of shit. Now we have this religious war in the Middle East that will never end, why do we concern ourselves with the little skirmish Russia is having in Georgia.

I say, "let the Russian's have at for as long as we have been in Iraq and for as long as it will continue henceforth". Besides, what are we doing with over one million troops stationed in one hundred and thirty foreign countries?

As long as Israel can continue to retain it's illegal Dimona Nuclear Facilities there will never be peace anywhere on this planet!

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It's a business...
Posted by: edraven on Aug 13, 2008 8:22 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Someone brought up taxes.

Yes, churches should pay tax - - and after the latest Government Accountability Office report, so should corporations. Both are a national disgrace.

Religion (not just the Osteens) is a delusional lie.

Ed Graham

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What makes a legend....
Posted by: beautifulady2003 on Aug 13, 2008 8:55 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Evidently Ms. Osteen is a legend in her own mind. The "e" word, which has been bandied about so much in our anti-intellectual society, is perfect to describe this vulture of a woman and her Elmer Gantry husband. The elitist bitch evidently thought the flight attendant wasn't moving fast enough, and damn it, we can't have that can we, after all, I'm flying first class, I'm rich and you're not, I'm PAYING for your service here, so DO YOUR JOB. Forgetting, of course, that "blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth." Prosperity gospel, yeah right, prosperity for vultures like the Osteens and the Hagees.

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sighing heavily...
Posted by: Jacki429 on Aug 13, 2008 9:27 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is no way to defend the immaturity of these spiritual brothers and sisters, and those of us who are part of the Christian zoo have an obligation to pray for them. The folks in their inner circle have an obligation to confront them about their issues as well. Christian maturity is a process that has no shortcuts. Millions of Christians around the world have it together spiritually, but they are not generally in the public eye like the Osteen dynasty (or others like them).

To all of you who have been disgusted, embarrassed or personally assaulted by my immature brothers and sisters in Christ, I humbly apologise.

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» Zap Christ OUT of your life Posted by: edgar1
» Oh please...... Posted by: Beepath
Teeth
Posted by: edgar1 on Aug 13, 2008 9:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This "Rev" Osteen smiles too much.

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» RE: Teeth Posted by: ranchero42
» He's so overcome with positive energy Posted by: andabottleof_rum
If the Catholics do it.....
Posted by: jeffrey7 on Aug 13, 2008 9:49 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Priests, Preachers and cops all hide the things we call 'nasty' behing their collective oaths. Should we be surpirzed by this? Not really. Before they even got to AMerica,Christians in Europe made life hell for everyone. After they got here,all bets were off. The Indian's were considered 'Godless' so burning them at the stake after they 'accepted christ' was a good thing. What pretentious assholes!!!!! They have'nt changed. ALthough I'm quite sure God,or whatever you want to call the Creator, has a special Hell just for them. Until them Prison might be a good start. You can't be a serious person of faith if you feeling up you followers. We now see the face of the Anti-Christ,does it look good to you yet?

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BREAKING NEWS FROM CNN!!!
Posted by: HughScott on Aug 13, 2008 9:57 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Speaking from the Rose Garden today, President Bush threatened to attack Russia if it burned down Atlanta.

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» ???????? Posted by: edgar1
» Good one-liner...... Posted by: Beepath
Another Nail
Posted by: LeaderofMen on Aug 13, 2008 10:09 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...goes into the coffin of Christianity.

Those of you who haven't read the Bible, should. Those of you who have are absolutely aware that not only is Christianity a despicable religion, but are very aware that those who are at the top of the Christian hierarchy do not believe a word they themselves say.

Indeed, those of us who have read and studied that rag known as the Bible are very very very clear that their god doesn't exist.

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» RE: faith isn't bad pre se Posted by: SevenStarHand
Christianity, LOL!
Posted by: hurricane hugo on Aug 13, 2008 10:27 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thinking people still follow this shit?

jdfu!

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I have comprehensively proven that Christian leaders are lying...
Posted by: SevenStarHand on Aug 13, 2008 10:31 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These are not mere mistakes or misconceptions. They know what they are saying and they know it is purposeful flimflam. Not only have I comprehensively analyzed their canons to prove the truth and expose the lies, I have personally gone around and talked to many. When pressed on pivotal points they always fail the test and when it gets down to acknowledging that they have been trapped in their own lies, they always retreat to the faith gambit. In other words, most are 100% aware that faith is merely a smokescreen to protect ages-old lies and delusions and to extract wealth and power from the gullible.

If you want to help end this crap, refer the "faithful" to the Open Letters linked to below. I've set a trap for their deceptive leaders (aka "snakes in fancy clothes") and you can now help to expose the lies and the liars and help me "open the eyes of the blind". Karma's a bitch when the time rolls around for Her to reward those who have transgressed Truth (light) and Justice (heat) !!

Open Letter to Religious Leaders
Open Letter to Atheists and Skeptics

Peace and Wisdom...

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Christ
Posted by: drsivana99 on Aug 13, 2008 10:33 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is exactly why I get on my knees every day and thank God that I am an atheist.

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» RE: Christ Posted by: LeaderofMen
Gray
Posted by: grayscot on Aug 13, 2008 10:34 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ms: Ehrenreich makes the point: "More importantly, from a secular point of view, it's dismissive of other humans, and not only flight attendants. If a person is speeding, shouldn't he get a ticket to deter him from endangering others?"

Yes, but being prosperous, he/she pays only a flat fine--say $200--which doesn't deter a prosperous person in the sense it might the working poor. I've always wondered why fines are flat and bonuses almost always a percentage of income. Guess the properous just envisioned it that way.

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Related to the Michael Moore piece ...
Posted by: taxidriver on Aug 13, 2008 10:39 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Another way Progressive Democrats can lose the election of 2008: Keep dismissing Christianity as an oppressive, greedy tool that's used to dupe the gullible.

Yes, Christianity, like any powerful and sanctioned belief system, can and will be abused. But c'mon, people: American Christianity has done much good in this country.

The invective and vitriol of many of the comments above is prejudicial in the extreme. Would Alternet readers accept and applaud these comments if they attacked Judaism? Or Islam?

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» Name me one thing that overcomes their love... Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
I have noticed that many of you bitch about tax exemption . . . . .
Posted by: Nightstallion on Aug 13, 2008 10:58 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here is a truth, if you have the gumption to check out your countries history feel free to do so don't believe this here idiot speaking to you through this medium! There exists no specific tax law that says you have to pay any taxes to begin with! You have been doing it voluntarily because you are like a horse that comes to grass and eats. Or, perhaps more specifically leaves a road apple because it is what is done; not because some God has said relieve thy self of your burden of green!
You pay taxes because your father paid taxes and so on clear back to the SNAFU that started it all in the 1800’s.

There is a law that states that Companies and businesses that own large stock profits must pay an income tax. BUT, THERE IS NOT NEVER HAS BEEN A PRIVATE PARTY INCOME TAX LAW (and until some wise assed political servant bureaucrat notices there is no law and sneaks one in, there will not be!) So don’t bitch at the Churches for being tax exempt, get off your dead ass and look at the history of this! Don’t believe some trite mundane idiot who tells you this message is full of shit check it out for yourself, if I’m lying I am dying I have not paid taxes of any kind but sales tax for over thirty five years and I am not in jail yet!


If I really begrudged my state for sales tax I know the form to get to be forgiven all sales taxes except those on luxuries or machinery. This is my only contribution to this condition. All of you must do what you please or think is right. I will not pay this governance taxes, it has fooled me once and will not do so again. Please, respect your labors how you see fit, but you have been informed and it is NOT A LIE.

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» no need to pay taxes ? Posted by: zipper696
» RE: no need to pay taxes ? Posted by: Nightstallion
Don't these ..........
Posted by: tap17x on Aug 13, 2008 11:00 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
....... revolting fuckwads know that JC himself said to sell your stuff and give the money to the poor? Said fuckwads ain't goin nowhere near heaven because God doesn't want hypocritical fuckwads around.

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Come on, folks; this is funny
Posted by: willymack on Aug 13, 2008 11:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Two chuckleheads, one a religious charlatan getting all het up over a wet spot, and the other getting hemmorhoids on the spot from a scuffle with the first chucklehead. This is something out of Jerry Springer's book. Jon Stewart and Steve Colbert are probably joyous over this. I can't wait to see how they react. Maybe Bill Maher will do a bit on the event when he returns to HBO on the 27th.

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Osteens are perfect
Posted by: bettyn on Aug 13, 2008 11:55 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
for the community they serve: Houston TX. They preach the doctrine of "SHOW ME THE MONEY!" and in the Bushes' Houston, that's all that matters!

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» Houston, TX - Yick Posted by: arieden
» RE: Houston, TX - Yick Posted by: papibear
Osteen Is Just Plain Gross
Posted by: jooljetkmae on Aug 13, 2008 12:32 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Not since the rise of Ralph Reed have I seen a better example of a slick looking, smooth talking snake oil salesman than Joel Osteen. The man just oozes snake oil all over him. He's just plain gross.

What's saddest of all is that people in the millions have helped make this man incredibly wealthy selling his snake oil. His church is the size of a basketball arena and they fill it up ever week. Christianity can be big business.

I hope the flight attendant wins a small fortune from this.

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WWJD?
Posted by: dudelette on Aug 13, 2008 12:54 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nothing that these entitled, millionaire, false Christians are doing.

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When did Jesus become a businessman?
Posted by: deang on Aug 13, 2008 1:18 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Growing up in a Protestant church in suburban Dallas, I heard frequent comments like, "If Jesus came back today, he'd be a CEO or a wealthy entrepreneur or the quarterback on the football team" and "Jesus wants us to keep our lawns mowed, cars washed, and hedges trimmed." The popularity of shallow, greedy dumbfucks like Osteen indicates that a lot of Americans think the same way. Where do Americans get these ideas? Could anything be further from the Jesus of the written texts?

The problem is not only with the "be concerned only with yourself and with making money and with conforming to shallow consumer culture". There's a more fundamental problem of the very narrow idea of what "success" and "wealth" are, which Americans almost all seem to equate with money. And where did you people get the idea that you have a monopoly on "hard work"? In any case, effort doesn't justify activities that are fundamentally immoral and ill-advised, like spending all your time pursuing monetary profit and the trappings of monetary accumulation.

And, yes, growing up in a wealthy right-wing Texas suburb, I heard all the contorted interpretations of "It's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven," but surely the meaning is obvious, and it means Osteen and his ilk would be left behind, as it were.

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As the great reformer...
Posted by: Nigelthebriton on Aug 13, 2008 1:22 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...of his day, Jan Hus, asked the heirarchy in Prague: "...If Jesus was poor, then why are you so rich?"

That question doesn't only haunt the Osteens, the Jim and Tammy Bakkers, and the Jan and Paul Crouches of your country. It haunts us all.

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Fundies Prove Their Hypocrisy!
Posted by: Godfather89 on Aug 13, 2008 1:25 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hahaha! Yes, finally living proof that these fundamentalists are not of God but rather of mammon [wealth]. I dislike these assholes with all my heart, not saying i wouldnt help to turn these people around, just their ways are finally caught.

They worship materialism. They get upset because, of a spill or accident, they don't worship God they just play the part of worshipping God. Their wolves in sheep's clothing! Turn away from them, their lies will only devour you or make you hate God, even though God is not behind them.

Let this be proof that Christ wouldn't get upset over an accident. But these pastor's "called upon by God" do! Fundamentalism is the enemy not religion itself.

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» RE: Fundies Prove Their Hypocrisy! Posted by: Godfather89
» RE: A+++++++++++++++++++++++ Posted by: Godfather89
Typical woman with a powerful husband, nothing more
Posted by: blogbooks on Aug 13, 2008 2:45 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nature of the beast, I'm afraid, to derive their self-esteem from who they have sex with.

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No surprises here...
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal on Aug 13, 2008 4:23 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...the only surprise in that Mrs. Oresteen did not pray to God or Jesus to punish the flight attendant. Why do it yourself when you have such great connections?

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Schadenfreude
Posted by: MgWade on Aug 13, 2008 5:25 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Gotta say, I hate how this whole subject makes me feel.

My strongest feeling is schadenfreude in both directions: the snooty flight attendant who got attitude back and now is trying to soak the millionaire's wife for a ludicrous amount of money, and the rich cooler-than-you who threw her weight around because she lost her temper and looks like a total snot hypocrite.

It's practically a parable, ain't it? It feels very un-Christian to be enjoying this so much.

Not knowing anything first hand, and knowing exactly how the press can present a story to convince you of anything.... Hell, I don't even know who to root for! Doncha HATE that!!

I'm guessing everyone involved ought to feel ashamed. However, I certainly haven't heard anything that happened that's worth a penalty of ten percent of someone's net worth.

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Remember Marjoe Gortner ?
Posted by: BlueGorilla on Aug 13, 2008 6:46 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The heaven hucksters are undoubtedly twisted individuals,perhaps with narcissistic personality disorders.
There is however a ready flock,with lots of money and gullibility.For the worst aspects of moneyanity to succeed,it demands a poorly educated,unaware bunch.
One has to question the infrastructure of a society,with such large numbers of dullards.
You might have thought that the game would have been up,when the adult Marjoe Gortner exposed his own fraud.
This poor young child had been forced by his vile parents,for reasons of material gain to pretend that god was talking through him.
As an angry adult, he guided the faithful, through the tricks,he had used to convince his audience, that he was "merely" a conduit for the almighty.
There was even a film about his story ,that appeared in the early 1970s. After Swaggart,Jim and Tammy,Robert Orell,plus many more.
The message becomes less and less biblical overtime,and more and more reflective of the nature of US society.In a United States,where capitalism long ago went mad,how many really disciplined religious scholars are there?Very few id imagine,they must be far outnumbered by the hucksters.
What percentage of the gullible,have read,and reread the bible?Its probably not a high number.
This story above illustrates another late twentieth century phenomena,that of the worsening cult of celebrity.
The esteem which the celebrated receive (or those who stand in the "light"of celebrity),from the fanbase,is of a rockstar/actor quality.Courtney Love and Naomi Campbell dont behave with any decency to 'civilians'..neither does a preacher's wife..there wasnt even a pretence of humbleness and humility ..just an abscence of light,and the words of arrogance.
If she came across Jesus,giving out the loaves and fishes,she'd hoard the lot.

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"Prosperity gospel" vs. Jesus' actual teachings
Posted by: vasumurti on Aug 13, 2008 9:49 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is said that Jesus was born not among kings or the wealthy, but in a manger, among the animals, while shepherds and their flocks heard the good news from an angelic choir. (Luke 2:1-20) “O great mystery and wondrous sacrament, that animals should see the Lord born and lying in a manger,” is the Response to the Second Nocturne’ before Midnight Mass on Christmas Eve in the Roman liturgy.

Jesus told his followers there is no need to pray to God for material blessings or even necessities. (Matthew 6:8,31-33; Luke 12:29-30) God’s compassion extends to all creation and He will easily provide for all of man’s needs:

“Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them...Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow, they neither toil nor spin. And yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Now if God so clothes the grass of the field...will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? (Matthew 6:26-30; Luke 12:24-28)

John the Baptist told the people to share half of their food and clothing with the needy. (Luke 3:11) Jesus was pleased when Zacchaeus, a wealthy tax collector, promised to give half his goods to the poor. “Today salvation has come to this house, because he is also a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man has come to seek and save that which was lost.” (Luke 19:2-10)

However, Jesus went even further, and called for renunciation of worldly goods. He did not regard the accumulation of material possessions as a meaningful goal in life. “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy...But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven...for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.” (Matthew 6:19-20; Luke 12:33-34)

Jesus told the multitudes that followed him, “...whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:25,33) “No one can serve two masters,” Jesus explained. “...he will be loyal to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and Mammon.” (Matthew 6:24; Luke 16:13)

Jesus had little interest in worldly disputes over money and property. (Luke 12:13-14) “Take heed and beware of covetousness, for one’s life does not consist in the abundance of the things he possesses.” Jesus condemned those who lay up treasures for themselves, but are not rich towards God. (Luke 12:15-21)

In his parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31), Jesus expressed concern for materialistic persons. When a rich, young ruler came to Jesus and said he had kept God’s commandments since youth, Jesus prized him dearly and replied, “You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come follow me.” The man went away, saddened. Jesus observed that it is hard for those attached to earthly riches to enter the kingdom of God. (Matthew 19:16-24; Mark 10:17-23; Luke 18:18-25)

Jesus even demanded the renunciation of family ties. (Luke 14:26) It appears Jesus had hardly any contact even with his own family; he regarded only those who do God’s will as his brethren. (Matthew 12:46-50; Mark 3:31-35; Luke 8:19-21) When a woman said to Jesus, “Blessed is the womb that bore you and the breasts which nursed you,” Jesus replied, “More blessed still are those who hear and keep the word of God.” (Luke 11:27-28)

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» fair enough... Posted by: vasumurti
» Ferchrissakes...... Posted by: Beepath
» RE: Ferchrissakes...... Posted by: terrymo
» RE: Ferchrissakes...... Posted by: vasumurti
You did this to yourselves theosophists! Live with it now.
Posted by: Nightstallion on Aug 14, 2008 2:22 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Who let the money lenders back into the temple? Who let the dogs in to kitchen? I apologize to the dogs! At least dogs try to pay keep for their indiscretions they bark at strangers and don’t steal where they are invited. Dogs are opportunists if the plate has food on it the dog will eat, then bring you something in return, just like cats.

Humans on the other hand keep the plate! Opportunism is useful only when no one is looking. Thievery to humans comes like quacking to a duck. I have heard it said leave the Church men alone they are too weak to do any real damage. Say what? They are stealing from the collection plate for cars, plane fares, child abuse, outright lying to the parishioners on where the money goes. There is no excuse for this! But we let them so who is to blame? Go look in a mirror, really now, go look before you forget.

I remember Upton Sinclair, he was a faithful man who had no use for pedagogues in Church clothing. At the turn of the Century in 1915 or there about he began writing a novel that was not finished till 1927, titled OIL! He wrote about the kind of profiteering preachers and oil men in the western and southern states that not so remarkably puts us mindful of the events bandied here on travel misconduct.

He treats his preacher with just deserts, it is Hollywoodized in There will be Blood! It is a diamond in the rough, which is enough on this. The moral is: just because it wears a backward collar does not mean it isn’t a thief! J.C. would be revolving at 50,000 rpm if he knew these people were doing this stupid crap in his name! So tell them to stop already.

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Definition Of "minister", "church" and the U.S. Tax Code
Posted by: sunlakedude on Aug 14, 2008 6:46 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Correct me if I'm wrong but I understand that Joel Osteen has no formal seminary training. He does have a bachelor's degree. He set up his church based only on his ambition and a fairly large loan. So, he is a "minister" in only the widest possible definition possible. Under the current U.S. tax code he is considered "non profit" in spite of the fact that he lives a very affluent lifestyle generated from donations to his "church". To rub even more salt into our wounds, he doesn't have to even provide a financial statement to the I R S yearly. This is B.S. plain and simple and it has to stop. Is anyone out there with me on this?

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» RE: Just about anyone with a brain... Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
So Biased
Posted by: Kiyanamilu on Aug 14, 2008 11:33 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I was surprised this was written yesterday! Even After hearing yesterday's news about the trial! So its obvious that this author is prejudiced against pastors and rich pastors! So according to this writer if you are rich, and a christian, just be a doormat and none of the laws and rights of an ordinary citizen applies to you! Three passengers and a pilot testified that no such assault happened on the flight. And this attendant is just out for some easy money as she has a previous history of doing the same thing to another person also! But that does not matter to this writer if you are a rich pastors wife, no justice should be demanded. You are rich, and you are a christian, just suck it up! If someone demands money, just cough it up since you have lots of it! Oh, wow, what an objective view. And since this writer does not like their life view and way of thinking and their money, its okay if she gets sued wrongfully. Victoria osteen should just hand over the money and accept all charges. Because that's the christian way, right? Even Jesus defended himself before giving up his life. Please at least pretend to be objective even if you don't like the person and their views. No guarantee in life that such injustices wont happen to you and me.

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jesus stole all his teaching from tibet
Posted by: caru on Aug 15, 2008 6:00 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
AND HIS PEOPLE HAVE MANGLED THE PLANET ... CHECK OUT:

SECRET RULERS OF THE WORLD, PART 10 OF 29.
KING OF KINGS

ON YOUTUBE.COM


so why do we even care about these mega thieves and mega liars and mega confused about history christians?

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Corrupting the Word
Posted by: macdon1 on Aug 16, 2008 2:24 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All of the world's great religions are based on the principles of peace, morality and love of God and neighbor. The essential meaning of the Word is the same, as it was spoken by the various prophets. After taking a few comparative religion courses and doing some studying it becomes crystal clear. However, human greed for riches, power over others and political gain has completely perverted and corrupted most organized religion. The only religious leader I can bear to listen to is the Dalai Lama. http://www.dalailama.com/

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"THIS LAND IS THEIR LAND" CONTINUES TO TELL IT LIKE IT IS. I'M
Posted by: Raymond Emerson on Aug 16, 2008 5:45 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
still reading on it Barbara. I'm stunned by Naomi Klein. I'm pleased to receive guidance from ladies of such talent. Moreover, they are so much my junior. Such is life.

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